Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
2008/5/9 s. keeling [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Why would I be _for_ switching? I'm a unilingual Anglophile. utf-8 would gain me nothing. I'm glad utf-8 (et al) finally exists for If you are talking alian character support bloating data size, it is not Actually, no. I'm more concerned with all the config files I'll need to tweak to make it work. mutt, slrn, Xresources, fonts, ... It's a *lot* simpler, for a unilingual anglo, to just say no. On an established system that's running, I couldn't agree more. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me? [bug 479702]
On Wed, May 07, 2008 at 07:09:44PM +, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: I'm cc-ing the bug report you have opened. Anybody who answers this bug should also read the thread that has followed the original message, as it contains many other useful details. I hope I included the essential in the bugreport, but it doesn't hurt either. and the font I use is Terminus. I only see some dashes and spaces, but I guess there are some fonts missing. On the console I see dashes and diamonds. With xfce4-terminal and the Monospace font (I'm guessing it's actually DejaVu) I can see the characters correctly (as far as I can tell). Do you use use anti-aliasing (aa)? I tried with and without. My default font (Terminus) does not need this and if I activate aa the font is switched to DejaVu. I've used mlterm for quite some time without the problems you mentioned. The problems seem, at first glance, as those of missing glyphs (characters) in the font(s) you use. The same font(s) used with xfce4-terminal display correctly. This is why I reported the bug against mlterm. Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
Sorry this's so late. Discovered a new mailbox. Incoming from Osamu Aoki: Hi, On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 03:57:19PM +0200, s. keeling wrote: Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Why are you against switching to UTF-8? Disk space? There really is no other disadvantage, and even the diskspace arguement doesn't count for much unless your drive is mostly uncompressed text files. Why would I be _for_ switching? I'm a unilingual Anglophile. utf-8 would gain me nothing. I'm glad utf-8 (et al) finally exists for If you are talking alian character support bloating data size, it is not Actually, no. I'm more concerned with all the config files I'll need to tweak to make it work. mutt, slrn, Xresources, fonts, ... It's a *lot* simpler, for a unilingual anglo, to just say no. iso-8859-15 does a decent job here. I see umlauts, et al. More exotic stuff (Israeli, Hindu, ...) no. -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*) Please don't Cc: me. - - -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
On Tue, May 06, 2008 at 01:31:28PM +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote: 2008/5/6 Chris Bannister [EMAIL PROTECTED]: א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת I am running an UTF-8 locale and the above still like gibberish. Thank you, that is actually very important information for me. I know that you don't know Hebrew, but page http://gibberish.co.il/encoding.html has examples of different types of gibberish. If you could post your locale info and tell me which image on the page looks like the gibberish you receive, or better yet send a screenshot of what you see, then it may help me help others in the future. Thanks! Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת Changing to Uni3-TerminusBold16 (from terminus-console) alters the above line to look like diamonds. Since the linux console can only display alphabetic characters, and Hebrew probably looks like a lot of squiggles, then I very much doubt it is possible to see any Hebrew in the Linux console. So if you can only read Hebrew and X karks it, you are basically stuffed? -- Chris. == One, with God, is always a majority, but many a martyr has been burned at the stake while the votes were being counted. -- Thomas B. Reed -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
On Tue, May 06, 2008 at 07:52:22PM -0500, Kevin Buhr wrote: Chris Bannister [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Interesting, I have: LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 and in /etc/console-tools/config SCREEN_FONT=lat0-sun16 With that setup, Dotan Cohen's line looks like solid black squares separated by dashes. You mean this is happening on the Linux console, right? Yes. Your LANG setting is fine, but the lat0-sun16 console font doesn't contain any Hebrew characters, so that's why you're getting solid black squares (indicating no character available) separated by dashes. You can load a Hebrew font on the current console: consolechars -f iso08.f16.psf.gz and Dotan's list should show up fine, but then accented latin characters won't be available. Ahh so it does, but the little arrows which point to the messages in each thread in the index view have lost their shaft. I think without special support, the Linux console handles only 256 characters at once (or 512 if you're willing to give up bold text). You can use the dynafont package, which uses dynamic font loading tricks to allow displaying text that requires more code space than that. It comes with a font that includes about 7900 glyphs and does pretty well if you don't care about Asian language support. A, I see, so that where the 512 glyph phrase comes from? -- Chris. == One, with God, is always a majority, but many a martyr has been burned at the stake while the votes were being counted. -- Thomas B. Reed -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
On Wed, May 07, 2008 at 07:03:39PM +1200, Chris Bannister wrote: Since the linux console can only display alphabetic characters, and Hebrew probably looks like a lot of squiggles, then I very much doubt it is possible to see any Hebrew in the Linux console. Some hits from linux console unicode hebrew - Google Search http://www.google.com/search?q=linux+console+unicode+hebrewnum=100 for example Linkname: Re: How to setup the console to greek ?: msg#00015 URL: http://osdir.com/ml/debian.internationalization.hellas/2004-12/msg00015.html seem to imply the contrary (font LatArCyrHeb) I have NOT personally checked. -- Chi usa software non libero avvelena anche te. Digli di smettere. Informatica=arsenico: minime dosi in rari casi patologici, altrimenti letale. Informatica=bomba: intelligente solo per gli stupidi che ci credono. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
On Tue, May 06, 2008 at 07:52:22PM -0500, Kevin Buhr wrote: Chris Bannister [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Interesting, I have: LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 and in /etc/console-tools/config SCREEN_FONT=lat0-sun16 With that setup, Dotan Cohen's line looks like solid black squares separated by dashes. You mean this is happening on the Linux console, right? Your LANG setting is fine, but the lat0-sun16 console font doesn't contain any Hebrew characters, so that's why you're getting solid black squares (indicating no character available) separated by dashes. You can load a Hebrew font on the current console: consolechars -f iso08.f16.psf.gz and Dotan's list should show up fine, but then accented latin characters won't be available. I think without special support, the Linux console handles only 256 characters at once (or 512 if you're willing to give up bold text). You can use the dynafont package, which uses dynamic font loading tricks to allow displaying text that requires more code space than that. It comes with a font that includes about 7900 glyphs and does pretty well if you don't care about Asian language support. Or use the ugly hack called LatArCyrHeb, to have characters of Latin, Arabic, Cyrrilic and Hebrew. But sadly, without line-drawing characters. Or use iso08 like the ancient ones :-( -- Tzafrir Cohen | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's [EMAIL PROTECTED] || best ICQ# 16849754 || friend -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me? [bug 479702]
I'm cc-ing the bug report you have opened. Anybody who answers this bug should also read the thread that has followed the original message, as it contains many other useful details. On Mon, May 05, 2008 at 10:15:37PM +0300, Andrei Popescu wrote: On Mon, May 05, 2008 at 08:50:27PM +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote: 2008/5/5 Andrei Popescu [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Is this a joke or am I missing something obvious? (wikipedia only shows a Hebrew diacritic, Patach, that looks like a dash) No, no joke. What system are you on? Even your replies have the Hebrew quoted properly. $ mutt -v Mutt 1.5.17 (2007-11-01) [...] System: Linux 2.6.24-1-686 (i686) [...] $ locale | grep LANG LANG=en_US.UTF-8 $ mlterm -v mlterm version 2.9.4 and the font I use is Terminus. I only see some dashes and spaces, but I guess there are some fonts missing. On the console I see dashes and diamonds. With xfce4-terminal and the Monospace font (I'm guessing it's actually DejaVu) I can see the characters correctly (as far as I can tell). Do you use use anti-aliasing (aa)? I've used mlterm for quite some time without the problems you mentioned. The problems seem, at first glance, as those of missing glyphs (characters) in the font(s) you use. I use mutt as well. I don't see any special settings I need. (I do need to use bidiv to properly see messages whose charset is marked as ISO-8859-8-i, I've had problems aliasing that to cp1255. But no problems with UTF-8). In fact, I'm now using a default installation of Lenny (with Hebrew selected as the language). I can see none of the problems mentioned here. I normally use mutt under screen from a remote Etch (this is the one from which I write now). But I also tested this with a local mutt from my Lenny installation. It seems to be a bit slower but displays the text just as well. BTW: the default anti-aliased font was horribly wide. I disabled anti-aliasing. And then I noticed that the font I got had bad pixelization issues (at the default size of 16). Changing the size to 14 made the problem go away. But Hebrew was displayed just as well with the original anti-aliased font. The fonts I have installed: culmus gsfonts ttf-unfonts ttf-unfonts-core ttf-unfonts-extra xfonts-100dpi xfonts-75dpi xfonts-baekmuk xfonts-base xfonts-encodings xfonts-scalable xfonts-utils (That's Culmus and packages that contain fonts in their name. Maybe there are others). -- Tzafrir Cohen | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's [EMAIL PROTECTED] || best ICQ# 16849754 || friend -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
On Tue, May 06, 2008 at 09:17:53PM -0500, Kevin Buhr wrote: Douglas A. Tutty [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: wrong. Lang=C. I don't have any locales installed. This is regular stock VT (no fonts, etc). Well, let's put it this way. Create a text file named test.1 containing the following: .TH TEST 1 .SH NAME test \- it's elementary Now, run man -l test.1. Does your fontless, stock VT show an ASCII apostrophe or a little block? ASCII apostrophy. Both on stock VT with TERM=linux, and on my VT520 with TERM=vt220. If it shows an ASCII apostrophe, I would be grateful if you could send me the name of a stock Debian manpage that shows a block instead of an apostrophe (preferably with its owning package name and version, if you aren't using plain Etch). I would very much like to track down the problem and file bug reports on the offending manpages. I'll keep this email and send you any I find. What about man aptitude? Under Command Line Options, the first line, I see: ... begin with a hyphen (\fB-\fR) And, under The following actions are available, each heading has the same thing, e.g.: \fBinstall\fR I assume that these are for bolding, yet the normal bold things like NAME in your example, and COMMAND-LINE ACTIONS in this man page are bold. the \fB and \fR are quite distracting to read. Here's my env: SHELL=/bin/bash TERM=linux TMPDIR=/tmp/user/1000 HUSHLOGIN=FALSE USER=dtutty MAIL=/home/dtutty/Maildir PATH=/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/games PWD=/home/dtutty EDITOR=/usr/bin/vi LANG=C DIALOGRC=/etc/dialogrc.colour HISTCONTROL=erasedups SHLVL=1 HOME=/home/dtutty TMP=/tmp/user/1000 LOGNAME=dtutty LESSOPEN=| /usr/bin/lesspipe %s LESSCLOSE=/usr/bin/lesspipe %s %s _=/usr/bin/env Thanks, Doug. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
Douglas A. Tutty [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What about man aptitude? Under Command Line Options, the first line, I see: ... begin with a hyphen (\fB-\fR) And, under The following actions are available, each heading has the same thing, e.g.: \fBinstall\fR This is definitely a bug, but not UTF-8 related: it renders this way on my UTF-8 capable terminals, as well. It looks like it's already documented in bug #438725 and fixed in testing, but we're stuck with it in stable. -- Kevin Buhr [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
On Mon, May 05, 2008 at 10:20:32PM -0600, Bob Proulx wrote: Dotan Cohen wrote: Ah, Mutt is known not to work with Hebrew. Mutt works fine. The problem, if one exists, is what font the terminal is using in which mutt is running. The font must support UTF-8 or it can't display those characters properly. If someone is using a classic 9x15 ASCII font for example it will be unable to display the extended characters. The gibberish text will only display as a row of dashes and spaces. א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת I see all of the characters in mutt and in emacs editing this reply but only because I am running inside of an xterm that is using a Unicode font. When I send this with mutt it will attempt to send I am running mutt with mlterm (multilingual terminal) and it doesn't show correctly. I experimented with xfce4-terminal and fonts and I can tell it's not the font (I use Terminus). Does anybody know how to make mlterm display everything right? Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
On Mon, May 05, 2008 at 10:20:32PM -0600, Bob Proulx wrote: The problem, if one exists, is what font the terminal is using sudo apt-get install xfonts-efont-unicode xfonts-efont-unicode-ib What about the linux console? I suspect that the answer will be that the linux console is right now not able to display at the same time eastern european, asiatic, arabic and hebrev characters (perhaps unless one uses someting experimental like uterm whose source seems to not be available at its homepage http://members.aceweb.com/hanpaul/ ). So the next question is: What is the combination of decent X-terminal and font (and screen resolution for X, and refresh rate) such that, when run in a window manager which is able to use full screen windoes (like ratpoison, icewm, evilwm and many others) looks the *same* as a linux (standard or framebuffer) console? I was never be able to find nor a decent terminal nor a decent (i.e. console like) font. (a terminal which uses gnome or kde libraries is not decent for my pourposes. gtk only or qt only might or might not be. xlib only surely is) -- Chi usa software non libero avvelena anche te. Digli di smettere. Informatica=arsenico: minime dosi in rari casi patologici, altrimenti letale. Informatica=bomba: intelligente solo per gli stupidi che ci credono. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
On Tue, May 06, 2008 at 09:08:57AM +0300, Andrei Popescu wrote: On Mon, May 05, 2008 at 10:20:32PM -0600, Bob Proulx wrote: א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת I am running mutt with mlterm (multilingual terminal) and it doesn't show correctly. I experimented with xfce4-terminal and fonts and I can tell it's not the font (I use Terminus). Does anybody know how to make mlterm display everything right? Tru rxvt-unicode (there are 3 flavours in debian and I compile my own so I can't tell you which one to try). It's what I use (infact for me it's mutt in screen over ssh in urxvt :) and the above looks like what may well be Hebrew. The other thing you may wish to make sure of is that you are using a UTF-8 locale. For me that's en_AU.UTF-8. If you don't you'll probably see a lot of question marks (I know I do). cat. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 NN_il_Confusionario wrote: On Mon, May 05, 2008 at 10:20:32PM -0600, Bob Proulx wrote: The problem, if one exists, is what font the terminal is using sudo apt-get install xfonts-efont-unicode xfonts-efont-unicode-ib What about the linux console? I suspect that the answer will be that the linux console is right now not able to display at the same time eastern european, asiatic, arabic and hebrev characters (perhaps unless one uses someting experimental like uterm whose source seems to not be available at its homepage http://members.aceweb.com/hanpaul/ ). So the next question is: What is the combination of decent X-terminal and font (and screen resolution for X, and refresh rate) such that, when run in a window manager which is able to use full screen windoes (like ratpoison, icewm, evilwm and many others) looks the *same* as a linux (standard or framebuffer) console? I was never be able to find nor a decent terminal nor a decent (i.e. console like) font. (a terminal which uses gnome or kde libraries is not decent for my pourposes. gtk only or qt only might or might not be. xlib only surely is) Eterm sounds like what you're looking for... or xterm? -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIIACNLeTfO4yBSAcRAtPQAKCD/0oqESYqbRMOvaxWUCLQ5/PU3ACgmv7s d5ly+KApvTqmHm2NlSFJbvY= =H38h -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
On Mon, May 05, 2008 at 10:49:44AM +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote: 2008/5/5 Andrei Popescu [EMAIL PROTECTED]: You are 100% correct, Andrei. See those Hebrew letters at the bottom of every post I make? It's to build a database of wrongly-encoded No. I didn't trim anything from what you wrote. What am I missing? א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת I am running an UTF-8 locale and the above still like gibberish. -- Chris. == One, with God, is always a majority, but many a martyr has been burned at the stake while the votes were being counted. -- Thomas B. Reed -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
2008/5/6 Chris Bannister [EMAIL PROTECTED]: א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת I am running an UTF-8 locale and the above still like gibberish. Thank you, that is actually very important information for me. I know that you don't know Hebrew, but page http://gibberish.co.il/encoding.html has examples of different types of gibberish. If you could post your locale info and tell me which image on the page looks like the gibberish you receive, or better yet send a screenshot of what you see, then it may help me help others in the future. Thanks! Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
On Mon, May 05, 2008 at 10:10:29PM +0100, Bob Cox wrote: On Tue, May 06, 2008 at 00:01:05 +0300, Dotan Cohen ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: 2008/5/5 Andrei Popescu [EMAIL PROTECTED]: $ mutt -v Mutt 1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Ah, Mutt is known not to work with Hebrew. There is a workaround, and I have it buried in my notes somewhere if you really need it. But unless you communicate in Hebrew, it is not worth the trouble. א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת It all looks ok from here using mutt. I am seeing each character separated by a dash or hyphen. Mutt 1.5.17+20080114 (2008-01-14) $ locale | grep LANG LANG=en_GB.UTF-8 LANGUAGE=en_GB.UTF-8 Interesting, I have: LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 and in /etc/console-tools/config SCREEN_FONT=lat0-sun16 With that setup, Dotan Cohen's line looks like solid black squares separated by dashes. An apt-get install fonty-rg and changing /etc/console-tools/config to: SCREEN_FONT=chavo Dotan Cohen's line looks like solid black squares with a weird looking question mark in each one. I wonder if the setting of APP_CHARSET_MAP should be changed? I tried changing it from APP_CHARSET_MAP=iso15 to APP_CHARSET_MAP=utf8 but no change in display (Got errors on bootup about findacm no such file or directory) Anyone any ideas? -- Chris. == One, with God, is always a majority, but many a martyr has been burned at the stake while the votes were being counted. -- Thomas B. Reed -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
2008/5/6 Chris Bannister [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Interesting, I have: LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 and in /etc/console-tools/config SCREEN_FONT=lat0-sun16 With that setup, Dotan Cohen's line looks like solid black squares separated by dashes. An apt-get install fonty-rg and changing /etc/console-tools/config to: SCREEN_FONT=chavo Dotan Cohen's line looks like solid black squares with a weird looking question mark in each one. I wonder if the setting of APP_CHARSET_MAP should be changed? I tried changing it from APP_CHARSET_MAP=iso15 to APP_CHARSET_MAP=utf8 but no change in display (Got errors on bootup about findacm no such file or directory) Anyone any ideas? Check that en_NZ.UTF-8 is a legal locale on your machine, and that it should not be en_NZ.utf8. The -a flag on the locale command will show you. On my machine, the utf letters are lowercase: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ locale -a C en_DK.utf8 en_GB.utf8 en_US.utf8 he_IL.utf8 POSIX Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
On Tue, May 06, 2008 at 02:23:41PM +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote: Check that en_NZ.UTF-8 is a legal locale on your machine, and that it should not be en_NZ.utf8. The -a flag on the locale command will show you. On my machine, the utf letters are lowercase: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ locale -a C en_DK.utf8 en_GB.utf8 en_US.utf8 he_IL.utf8 POSIX locale -a gives: C en_NZ en_NZ.iso88591 en_NZ.utf8 en_US en_US.iso88591 mi_NZ mi_NZ.iso885913 mi_NZ.utf8 POSIX But locale gives: LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 LC_CTYPE=en_NZ.UTF-8 LC_NUMERIC=en_NZ.UTF-8 LC_TIME=en_NZ.UTF-8 LC_COLLATE=C LC_MONETARY=en_NZ.UTF-8 LC_MESSAGES=en_NZ.UTF-8 LC_PAPER=en_NZ.UTF-8 LC_NAME=en_NZ.UTF-8 LC_ADDRESS=en_NZ.UTF-8 LC_TELEPHONE=en_NZ.UTF-8 LC_MEASUREMENT=en_NZ.UTF-8 LC_IDENTIFICATION=en_NZ.UTF-8 LC_ALL= I picked the locale using dpkg-reconfigure locales -- Chris. == One, with God, is always a majority, but many a martyr has been burned at the stake while the votes were being counted. -- Thomas B. Reed -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
2008/5/6 Chris Bannister [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Tue, May 06, 2008 at 02:23:41PM +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote: Check that en_NZ.UTF-8 is a legal locale on your machine, and that it should not be en_NZ.utf8. The -a flag on the locale command will show you. On my machine, the utf letters are lowercase: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ locale -a C en_DK.utf8 en_GB.utf8 en_US.utf8 he_IL.utf8 POSIX locale -a gives: C en_NZ en_NZ.iso88591 en_NZ.utf8 en_US en_US.iso88591 mi_NZ mi_NZ.iso885913 mi_NZ.utf8 POSIX But locale gives: LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 LC_CTYPE=en_NZ.UTF-8 LC_NUMERIC=en_NZ.UTF-8 LC_TIME=en_NZ.UTF-8 LC_COLLATE=C LC_MONETARY=en_NZ.UTF-8 LC_MESSAGES=en_NZ.UTF-8 LC_PAPER=en_NZ.UTF-8 LC_NAME=en_NZ.UTF-8 LC_ADDRESS=en_NZ.UTF-8 LC_TELEPHONE=en_NZ.UTF-8 LC_MEASUREMENT=en_NZ.UTF-8 LC_IDENTIFICATION=en_NZ.UTF-8 LC_ALL= I picked the locale using dpkg-reconfigure locales Actually, I've now noticed the same phenomenon on my own box. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
Douglas A. Tutty [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What gets me is when a man page is written in english and ' gets translated as ?, as in can?t or ' is a square white blob (on a regular VT). Why couldn't whoever wrote it in english have used the standard english ' glyph instead of a UTF thingy? The problem isn't the manpage author, it's your setup. Specifically, you're using a locale that sports UTF-8 encoding, but you're using a terminal/font combination that is not capable of correctly rendering UTF-8-encoded common typographical symbols used for English language text, like the right single quote / apostrophe. If you use a locale based on ASCII encoding instead, those manpages will render more correctly (for example, substituting the unsightly ASCII vertical apostrophe for its more urbane cousin or writing (C) in place of the copyright symbol). See the bottom of this post if LANG=C isn't good enough for you. Unlike some people here, I couldn't give a σθιτ if you, S. Keeling, or anyone else wants to use UTF-8 or not---I'm not on any crusade---but an environment variable setting of LANG=en_US.UTF-8 is basically an announcement to applications that your terminal is UTF-8 capable. You don't have to run a UTF-8-capable terminal if you don't want to, but you shouldn't lie to your applications and then whine about those damn foreigners writing manpages incorrectly (just a joke, just a joke). In truth, if you look at the manpage source, you'll probably find that the manpage authors *have* used the ASCII ' character for apostrophes and right single quotes. That's because this is the encoding convention used in the typesetting language roff in which manpages are written. You write `stuff like this' knowing that a correctly configured manpage rendering pipeline will convert those ASCII backticks and apostrophes into the correct English typographical symbols (if the manpage is being printed or being displayed on a sophisticated terminal) or at least do the best it can (if it's being delivered to an ASCII-only terminal). If manpage writers were really on the ball, they'd use \(lqleft and right double-quotes\(rq too, but you don't see too much of that. To clarify further, there's nothing English about '. If it's anything, it's ASCII, not English. I'm not sure that the ASCII standard actually specifies what printable characters, including ', are supposed to look like, but in most fonts with ASCII-compatible encoding, the ' character is rendered as an undirected, typewriter-style apostrophe, like a vertical tickmark, and I believe this is pretty much universally accepted as the correct rendering of this character, among those who care about these things. In particular, it is *not* the character used in typeset English text as an apostrophe or right single quote. It's rarely used in English text at all, except in historically ASCII contents like email and computer plain text files. It's about as un-English as you can get. It's very ASCII, though. Anyway, to really take a stand on this UTF-8 crap and announce to the world that 7 bits were good enough for cavemen so, by God, they're good enough for you too, you can simply use a preexisting ASCII-only locale (like LANG=C) or you can generate one. Add this line to /etc/locale.gen: en_US ANSI_X3.4-1968 run /usr/sbin/locale-gen as root, and find some way to set LANG=en_US or LC_ALL=en_US. ANSI_X3.4-1968 is another name for ASCII, so your new en_US locale shouldn't bother you with heretical characters. Some applications will still give up and print a ? for non-ASCII characters, but man should do an excellent job displaying a pure ASCII rendering of your manpages for you. -- Kevin Buhr [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
Chris Bannister [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Interesting, I have: LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 and in /etc/console-tools/config SCREEN_FONT=lat0-sun16 With that setup, Dotan Cohen's line looks like solid black squares separated by dashes. You mean this is happening on the Linux console, right? Your LANG setting is fine, but the lat0-sun16 console font doesn't contain any Hebrew characters, so that's why you're getting solid black squares (indicating no character available) separated by dashes. You can load a Hebrew font on the current console: consolechars -f iso08.f16.psf.gz and Dotan's list should show up fine, but then accented latin characters won't be available. I think without special support, the Linux console handles only 256 characters at once (or 512 if you're willing to give up bold text). You can use the dynafont package, which uses dynamic font loading tricks to allow displaying text that requires more code space than that. It comes with a font that includes about 7900 glyphs and does pretty well if you don't care about Asian language support. -- Kevin Buhr [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
On Tue, May 06, 2008 at 05:47:36PM -0500, Kevin Buhr wrote: Douglas A. Tutty [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What gets me is when a man page is written in english and ' gets translated as ?, as in can?t or ' is a square white blob (on a regular VT). Why couldn't whoever wrote it in english have used the standard english ' glyph instead of a UTF thingy? The problem isn't the manpage author, it's your setup. Specifically, you're using a locale that sports UTF-8 encoding, but wrong. Lang=C. I don't have any locales installed. This is regular stock VT (no fonts, etc). you're using a terminal/font combination that is not capable of correctly rendering UTF-8-encoded common typographical symbols used for English language text, like the right single quote / apostrophe. The apostrophe is in standard ASCII in C. If you use a locale based on ASCII encoding instead, those manpages will render more correctly (for example, substituting the unsightly ASCII vertical apostrophe for its more urbane cousin or writing (C) in place of the copyright symbol). See the bottom of this post if LANG=C isn't good enough for you. Already using LANG=C Unlike some people here, I couldn't give a if you, S. Keeling, or anyone else wants to use UTF-8 or not---I'm not on any crusade---but an environment variable setting of LANG=en_US.UTF-8 is basically an announcement to applications that your terminal is UTF-8 capable. You don't have to run a UTF-8-capable terminal if you don't want to, but you shouldn't lie to your applications and then whine about those damn foreigners writing manpages incorrectly (just a joke, just a joke). In truth, if you look at the manpage source, you'll probably find that the manpage authors *have* used the ASCII ' character for apostrophes and right single quotes. That's because this is the encoding convention used in the typesetting language roff in which manpages are written. You write `stuff like this' knowing that a correctly configured manpage rendering pipeline will convert those ASCII backticks and apostrophes into the correct English typographical symbols (if the manpage is being printed or being displayed on a sophisticated terminal) or at least do the best it can (if it's being delivered to an ASCII-only terminal). If manpage writers were really on the ball, they'd use \(lqleft and right double-quotes\(rq too, but you don't see too much of that. To clarify further, there's nothing English about '. If it's anything, it's ASCII, not English. I'm not sure that the ASCII standard actually specifies what printable characters, including ', are supposed to look like, but in most fonts with ASCII-compatible encoding, the ' character is rendered as an undirected, typewriter-style apostrophe, like a vertical tickmark, and I believe this is pretty much universally accepted as the correct rendering of this character, among those who care about these things. In particular, it is *not* the character used in typeset English text as an apostrophe or right single quote. It's rarely used in English text at all, except in historically ASCII contents like email and computer plain text files. It's about as un-English as you can get. It's very ASCII, though. According to man ascii, its ascii code decimal 27. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
Douglas A. Tutty [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The problem isn't the manpage author, it's your setup. Specifically, you're using a locale that sports UTF-8 encoding, but wrong. Lang=C. I don't have any locales installed. This is regular stock VT (no fonts, etc). Well, let's put it this way. Create a text file named test.1 containing the following: .TH TEST 1 .SH NAME test \- it's elementary Now, run man -l test.1. Does your fontless, stock VT show an ASCII apostrophe or a little block? If it shows a block, your setup is broken, no matter what LANG is set to. If it shows an ASCII apostrophe, I would be grateful if you could send me the name of a stock Debian manpage that shows a block instead of an apostrophe (preferably with its owning package name and version, if you aren't using plain Etch). I would very much like to track down the problem and file bug reports on the offending manpages. Thanks. -- Kevin Buhr [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
2008/5/5 Andrei Popescu [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Here is an argument for you: using ascii is delaying the adoption of utf-8. Let me elaborate. Romanian is using a few special characters (a,i,s and t with diacritics) which are only available in utf-8 (and maybe iso-8852-16?). To make things worse, MS implemented the wrong characters (from iso-8852-2) up to XP and only corrected this in Vista (and a recent update for XP). Right now we have the following situation: some people use the special characters when writing, but they mostly use the wrong ones. Others (the majority) don't use them at all (making Romanian texts difficult to read, because without the diacritics many words look the same) because it's too much trouble. Even if you configure your own computer to show them right, you never know what other people are using. Switching everybody to utf-8 would be the best and simplest solution. Regards, Andrei You are 100% correct, Andrei. See those Hebrew letters at the bottom of every post I make? It's to build a database of wrongly-encoded Hebrew when people reply, so that I can decode messages from people who are not using UTF-8. It's a huge problem, one that I'm trying to help deal with on the http://gibberish.co.il website. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
On Mon, May 05, 2008 at 10:02:03AM +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote: You are 100% correct, Andrei. See those Hebrew letters at the bottom of every post I make? It's to build a database of wrongly-encoded No. I didn't trim anything from what you wrote. What am I missing? Hebrew when people reply, so that I can decode messages from people who are not using UTF-8. It's a huge problem, one that I'm trying to help deal with on the http://gibberish.co.il website. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
2008/5/5 Andrei Popescu [EMAIL PROTECTED]: You are 100% correct, Andrei. See those Hebrew letters at the bottom of every post I make? It's to build a database of wrongly-encoded No. I didn't trim anything from what you wrote. What am I missing? א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
On Mon, May 05, 2008 at 10:49:44AM +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote: 2008/5/5 Andrei Popescu [EMAIL PROTECTED]: You are 100% correct, Andrei. See those Hebrew letters at the bottom of every post I make? It's to build a database of wrongly-encoded No. I didn't trim anything from what you wrote. What am I missing? א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? Is this a joke or am I missing something obvious? (wikipedia only shows a Hebrew diacritic, Patach, that looks like a dash) Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
2008/5/5 Andrei Popescu [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Is this a joke or am I missing something obvious? (wikipedia only shows a Hebrew diacritic, Patach, that looks like a dash) No, no joke. What system are you on? Even your replies have the Hebrew quoted properly. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
On Mon, May 05, 2008 at 08:50:27PM +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote: 2008/5/5 Andrei Popescu [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Is this a joke or am I missing something obvious? (wikipedia only shows a Hebrew diacritic, Patach, that looks like a dash) No, no joke. What system are you on? Even your replies have the Hebrew quoted properly. $ mutt -v Mutt 1.5.17 (2007-11-01) [...] System: Linux 2.6.24-1-686 (i686) [...] $ locale | grep LANG LANG=en_US.UTF-8 $ mlterm -v mlterm version 2.9.4 and the font I use is Terminus. I only see some dashes and spaces, but I guess there are some fonts missing. On the console I see dashes and diamonds. With xfce4-terminal and the Monospace font (I'm guessing it's actually DejaVu) I can see the characters correctly (as far as I can tell). Regards, Andrei P.S. Now I'll reconsider switching to xfce4-terminal, though it starts slower than mlterm -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
2008/5/5 Andrei Popescu [EMAIL PROTECTED]: $ mutt -v Mutt 1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Ah, Mutt is known not to work with Hebrew. There is a workaround, and I have it buried in my notes somewhere if you really need it. But unless you communicate in Hebrew, it is not worth the trouble. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
On Tue, May 06, 2008 at 00:01:05 +0300, Dotan Cohen ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: 2008/5/5 Andrei Popescu [EMAIL PROTECTED]: $ mutt -v Mutt 1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Ah, Mutt is known not to work with Hebrew. There is a workaround, and I have it buried in my notes somewhere if you really need it. But unless you communicate in Hebrew, it is not worth the trouble. א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת It all looks ok from here using mutt. I am seeing each character separated by a dash or hyphen. Mutt 1.5.17+20080114 (2008-01-14) $ locale | grep LANG LANG=en_GB.UTF-8 LANGUAGE=en_GB.UTF-8 -- Bob Cox. Stoke Gifford, near Bristol, UK. Registered user #445000 with the Linux Counter - http://counter.li.org/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
On Tue, May 06, 2008 at 12:01:05AM +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote: 2008/5/5 Andrei Popescu [EMAIL PROTECTED]: $ mutt -v Mutt 1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Ah, Mutt is known not to work with Hebrew. There is a workaround, and I have it buried in my notes somewhere if you really need it. But unless you communicate in Hebrew, it is not worth the trouble. It works under xfce4-terminal. Right now I am experimenting with different fonts for mlterm, but can't seem to get it right. Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
2008/5/6 Bob Cox [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Ah, Mutt is known not to work with Hebrew. There is a workaround, and I have it buried in my notes somewhere if you really need it. But unless you communicate in Hebrew, it is not worth the trouble. It all looks ok from here using mutt. I am seeing each character separated by a dash or hyphen. If so, then I have friends who would want to see your .mutt or .muttrc or whatever config file that program uses. Can you confirm that the aleph א is the rightmost character, and that the tav ת is the leftmost character? Thanks. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
On Tue, May 06, 2008 at 12:17:09AM +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote: 2008/5/6 Bob Cox [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Ah, Mutt is known not to work with Hebrew. There is a workaround, and I have it buried in my notes somewhere if you really need it. But unless you communicate in Hebrew, it is not worth the trouble. It all looks ok from here using mutt. I am seeing each character separated by a dash or hyphen. If so, then I have friends who would want to see your .mutt or .muttrc or whatever config file that program uses. Can you confirm that the aleph א is the rightmost character, and that the tav ת is the leftmost character? Thanks. I can confirm that for you, but it only works if I use mutt under xfce4-terminal. I doesn't work with mlterm (or I'm missing a setting). I don't have anything related in my .muttrc except set charset=utf-8 but it works even if I unset that. Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
On Tue, May 06, 2008 at 12:12:46AM +0300, Andrei Popescu wrote: On Tue, May 06, 2008 at 12:01:05AM +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote: 2008/5/5 Andrei Popescu [EMAIL PROTECTED]: $ mutt -v Mutt 1.5.17 (2007-11-01) Ah, Mutt is known not to work with Hebrew. There is a workaround, and I have it buried in my notes somewhere if you really need it. But unless you communicate in Hebrew, it is not worth the trouble. It works under xfce4-terminal. Right now I am experimenting with different fonts for mlterm, but can't seem to get it right. If only locales didn't slow down all my boxes except for my big Athlon64. Running a mixed C and UTF-8 home network is a PITA because when you ssh in you have to remember to start with LANG=C anyway. So your ??s look like ??s to me. Its not that bad since one ?? would mean the same as another ?? to me anyway. What gets me is when a man page is written in english and ' gets translated as ?, as in can?t or ' is a square white blob (on a regular VT). Why couldn't whoever wrote it in english have used the standard english ' glyph instead of a UTF thingy? Doug. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
On Tue, May 06, 2008 at 00:17:09 +0300, Dotan Cohen ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: 2008/5/6 Bob Cox [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Ah, Mutt is known not to work with Hebrew. There is a workaround, and I have it buried in my notes somewhere if you really need it. But unless you communicate in Hebrew, it is not worth the trouble. It all looks ok from here using mutt. I am seeing each character separated by a dash or hyphen. If so, then I have friends who would want to see your .mutt or .muttrc or whatever config file that program uses. Can you confirm that the aleph א is the rightmost character, and that the tav ת is the leftmost character? Thanks. Yes, I can confirm that. The only relevant line in my ~/.muttrc I can find is set charset=utf-8 -- Bob Cox. Stoke Gifford, near Bristol, UK. Registered user #445000 with the Linux Counter - http://counter.li.org/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
Dotan Cohen wrote: Ah, Mutt is known not to work with Hebrew. Mutt works fine. The problem, if one exists, is what font the terminal is using in which mutt is running. The font must support UTF-8 or it can't display those characters properly. If someone is using a classic 9x15 ASCII font for example it will be unable to display the extended characters. The gibberish text will only display as a row of dashes and spaces. א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת I see all of the characters in mutt and in emacs editing this reply but only because I am running inside of an xterm that is using a Unicode font. When I send this with mutt it will attempt to send using us-ascii and failing that it will attempt to send using iso-8859-1 and if that fails it will send it in UTF-8. That is the default encoding order because it reflects the widest support available. It is possible to change the ordering in mutt using the send_charset variable such as in this following. (But I usually leave it the default value since that seems to work okay too.) # Default: us-ascii:iso-8859-1:utf-8 set send_charset=us-ascii:utf-8 In order to try out UTF-8 in a temporary way try this following set of commands. First install some Unicode fonts. sudo apt-get install xfonts-efont-unicode xfonts-efont-unicode-ib That will get some basic Unicode fonts onto the machine. Then look at the docs that have been installed. The README.Debian file has some very good information. pager /usr/share/doc/xfonts-efont-unicode/README.Debian Basically: -efont-fixed-medium-r-normal-*-16-*-*-*-*-*-iso10646-1 Then to try it temporarily (use an appropriate UTF-8 LANG, I am using en_US.UTF-8 but that is just for the example, and this illustrates my Unix mind-set that the sort order should be standard order and not dictionary order by setting LC_COLLATE too): LANG=en_US.UTF-8 LC_COLLATE=C xterm -fn -efont-fixed-medium-r-normal--16-160-75-75-c-80-iso10646-1 That should bring up an xterm with Unicode support and a Unicode font. Running mutt or emacs or so forth in such a terminal should be enabled for full UTF-8 characters. The xlsfonts command can be used to list out fonts that match patterns. Something like the following is interesting. (And leads me to wonder why there are no 18 or 20 point fonts in the efont package?) xlsfonts -fn '-*-fixed-medium-r-normal-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-iso10646-1' For better or for worse I settled on using the following in my personal ~/.Xresources file to configure XTerm. It is all very much personal taste. These work well for me but I know that everyone has their own preferences. YMMV and all of that. XTerm*font:-efont-fixed-medium-r-normal--16-160-75-75-c-80-iso10646-1 XTerm*Font2:-efont-fixed-medium-r-normal-*-12-*-*-*-*-*-iso10646-1 XTerm*Font3:-efont-fixed-medium-r-normal-*-14-*-*-*-*-*-iso10646-1 XTerm*Font4:-efont-fixed-medium-r-normal-*-16-*-*-*-*-*-iso10646-1 XTerm*Font5:-misc-fixed-medium-r-normal--18-*-*-*-*-*-iso10646-1 XTerm*Font6:-efont-fixed-medium-r-normal-*-24-*-*-*-*-*-iso10646-1 XTerm*fontMenu*fontdefault*Label:Default 16 XTerm*fontMenu*font1*Label:Unreadable 2 XTerm*fontMenu*font2*Label:Tiny 12 XTerm*fontMenu*font3*Label:Small 14 XTerm*fontMenu*font4*Label:Medium 16 XTerm*fontMenu*font5*Label:Large 18 XTerm*fontMenu*font6*Label:Huge 24 I am sure that the GNOME and KDE folks have similar settings available to them. I am using FVWM and XTerm. Also I have installed a *LOT* of other fonts. They are a very large disk hog. But I like to be able to see text as intended to be displayed. Also it is nice to see WikiPedia pages with all of the correct symbols and without all of the missing font boxes. I am still missing a few but most of them are visible to me. :-) apt-cache search ttf- | grep ^ttf- Bob signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
On Tue, Apr 29, 2008 at 05:00:53AM +0200, s. keeling wrote: Eduardo M KALINOWSKI [EMAIL PROTECTED]: s. keeling wrote: Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Why are you against switching to UTF-8? Disk space? There really is Why would I be _for_ switching? I'm a unilingual [Anglophone]. utf-8 Even if you used a language with a few accented characters (French, Spanish, Polish, etc.), your files would only change with regards to those characters (which would take 2 instead of one byte - but you could have French and Polish in the same file, for example). The difference is minimal, and, for English only, inexistent. I'm still wondering where the argument _for_ this is. I'm doing Anglaise and nothing else, and you can easily handle that there. Rhetorical, but why would I want to go utf-8? I can see little point in it in my situation. Here is an argument for you: using ascii is delaying the adoption of utf-8. Let me elaborate. Romanian is using a few special characters (a,i,s and t with diacritics) which are only available in utf-8 (and maybe iso-8852-16?). To make things worse, MS implemented the wrong characters (from iso-8852-2) up to XP and only corrected this in Vista (and a recent update for XP). Right now we have the following situation: some people use the special characters when writing, but they mostly use the wrong ones. Others (the majority) don't use them at all (making Romanian texts difficult to read, because without the diacritics many words look the same) because it's too much trouble. Even if you configure your own computer to show them right, you never know what other people are using. Switching everybody to utf-8 would be the best and simplest solution. Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 04/26/08 08:57, s. keeling wrote: Why would I be _for_ switching? I'm a unilingual Anglophile. utf-8 Anglo*phile* or anglo*phone*? Um, yes, the latter. I'm a little shocked I said that. Nice catch. Perfidious Albion, but anglophone regardless. Back to our scheduled nightmare ... -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*)http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html Linux Counter #80292 - -http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.htmlPlease, don't Cc: me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: 2008/4/26 Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Why would I be _for_ switching? I'm a unilingual Anglophile. utf-8 Anglo*phile* or anglo*phone*? He likes to have sex with the English, apparently. It's a fair cop, and you say that as if it's a bad thing. :-P -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*)http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html Linux Counter #80292 - -http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.htmlPlease, don't Cc: me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 04/26/08 09:34, Dotan Cohen wrote: 2008/4/26 Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Why would I be _for_ switching? I'm a unilingual Anglophile. utf-8 Anglo*phile* or anglo*phone*? He likes to have sex with the English, apparently. My first thought upon reading that was, rum, buggery and the lash. Apparently, I need psychological assistance... Indeed. There are British, and then there are British. The distinguishing characteristics can be quite striking. -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*)http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html Linux Counter #80292 - -http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.htmlPlease, don't Cc: me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
Eduardo M KALINOWSKI [EMAIL PROTECTED]: s. keeling wrote: Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Why are you against switching to UTF-8? Disk space? There really is Why would I be _for_ switching? I'm a unilingual [Anglophone]. utf-8 Even if you used a language with a few accented characters (French, Spanish, Polish, etc.), your files would only change with regards to those characters (which would take 2 instead of one byte - but you could have French and Polish in the same file, for example). The difference is minimal, and, for English only, inexistent. I'm still wondering where the argument _for_ this is. I'm doing Anglaise and nothing else, and you can easily handle that there. Rhetorical, but why would I want to go utf-8? I can see little point in it in my situation. I'll create another acct on this thing and try it there. If I manage to find my way South to S. Am. learning Espanol, it likely will come in handy. I'll be able to do that curly thing over the n that word should have. -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*)http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html Linux Counter #80292 - -http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.htmlPlease, don't Cc: me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: 2008/4/26 s. keeling [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Why would I be _for_ switching? I'm a unilingual Anglophile. utf-8 For you, there is no real reason to switch. However, there are those who use proprietary encodings such as cp-* who's mail ends up as gibberish to the rest of the world. If you are ASCII-only, then no advantage to you. Carry on. Interesting thread, thanks to all. I'll see what I come up with. -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*)http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html Linux Counter #80292 - -http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.htmlPlease, don't Cc: me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
Osamu Aoki [EMAIL PROTECTED]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Character_Set http://people.debian.org/~osamu/pub/getwiki/html/ch09.en.html#thelocale Thanks, noted. -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*)http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html Linux Counter #80292 - -http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.htmlPlease, don't Cc: me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
s. keeling wrote: Sorry for the thread snatch. I'm (usually*) reading d-u in slrn via the mail to news gateway linux.debian.user. I've seen this before and I'm wondering if there's anything I can do about it, other than going utf-8 myself (I've no need for it (I think)). -- Bipin Babu [EMAIL PROTECTED]: --=_Part_7962_22139442.1209161466138 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline T24gRnJpLCBBcHIgMjUsIDIwMDggYXQgMTo1OCBQTSwgR2lsbGVzIE1vY2VsbGluIDxnaWxsZXMu bW9jZWxsaW5AZnJlZS5mcj4Kd3JvdGU6Cgo+IExlIEZyaWRheSAyNSBBcHJpbCAyMDA4IDE1OjUw -- I do not think the problem is with UTF-8. If it were, you'd see two (or more) strange characters instead of accented letters or letters of other writing systems. It does not look like that. I think the problem is that the message is coded in base64, even if it is (mostly) plaintext. -- To get something clean, one has to get something dirty. To get something dirty, one does not have to get anything clean. Eduardo M KALINOWSKI [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://move.to/hpkb -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
On 26/04/2008, Eduardo M KALINOWSKI [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: T24gRnJpLCBBcHIgMjUsIDIwMDggYXQgMTo1OCBQTSwgR2lsbGVzIE1vY2VsbGluIDxnaWxsZXMu bW9jZWxsaW5AZnJlZS5mcj4Kd3JvdGU6Cgo+IExlIEZyaWRheSAyNSBBcHJpbCAyMDA4IDE1OjUw I do not think the problem is with UTF-8. If it were, you'd see two (or more) strange characters instead of accented letters or letters of other writing systems. It does not look like that. I think the problem is that the message is coded in base64, even if it is (mostly) plaintext. You are correct. The text quoted translated to this: On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 1:58 PM, Gilles Mocellin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Le Friday 25 April 2008 15:50 Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 04/26/08 07:14, Dotan Cohen wrote: On 26/04/2008, Eduardo M KALINOWSKI [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: T24gRnJpLCBBcHIgMjUsIDIwMDggYXQgMTo1OCBQTSwgR2lsbGVzIE1vY2VsbGluIDxnaWxsZXMu bW9jZWxsaW5AZnJlZS5mcj4Kd3JvdGU6Cgo+IExlIEZyaWRheSAyNSBBcHJpbCAyMDA4IDE1OjUw I do not think the problem is with UTF-8. If it were, you'd see two (or more) strange characters instead of accented letters or letters of other writing systems. It does not look like that. I think the problem is that the message is coded in base64, even if it is (mostly) plaintext. You are correct. The text quoted translated to this: On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 1:58 PM, Gilles Mocellin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Le Friday 25 April 2008 15:50 Yup. I found it in my archive, and it's definitely in base64. Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 15:11:06 -0700 From: Bipin Babu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: debian-user@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: Grub2 In-Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] This Bipin Babu must have screwed up his gmail configuration, and doesn't notice, because gmail, Thunderbird, KMail are auto- converting it. - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA We want... a Shrubbery!! -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIEyzgS9HxQb37XmcRAu0LAJ93uAgQfKU7Wjt7Z6QbTmtZ7vEuegCfeDon DZhwmoduJZOQj9BE/HsTO/4= =Tw9G -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 04/25/08 21:13, s. keeling wrote: Sorry for the thread snatch. I'm (usually*) reading d-u in slrn via the mail to news gateway linux.debian.user. I've seen this before and I'm wondering if there's anything I can do about it, other than going utf-8 myself (I've no need for it (I think)). -- Bipin Babu [EMAIL PROTECTED]: --=_Part_7962_22139442.1209161466138 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline T24gRnJpLCBBcHIgMjUsIDIwMDggYXQgMTo1OCBQTSwgR2lsbGVzIE1vY2VsbGluIDxnaWxsZXMu bW9jZWxsaW5AZnJlZS5mcj4Kd3JvdGU6Cgo+IExlIEZyaWRheSAyNSBBcHJpbCAyMDA4IDE1OjUw -- What's the subject timestamp of the message? I retain all mails, so I should be able to find it. Subject: Re: Grub2 Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2008 00:20:11 +0200 -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*)http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html Linux Counter #80292 - -http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.htmlPlease, don't Cc: me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Why are you against switching to UTF-8? Disk space? There really is no other disadvantage, and even the diskspace arguement doesn't count for much unless your drive is mostly uncompressed text files. Why would I be _for_ switching? I'm a unilingual Anglophile. utf-8 would gain me nothing. I'm glad utf-8 (et al) finally exists for those of you who who can use it or need it. However, it's irrelevant here. I only know English, and can puzzle out some words in other related western European languages. I'd guess my $HOME probably is mostly uncompressed text, source and documentation. -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*)http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html Linux Counter #80292 - -http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.htmlPlease, don't Cc: me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
s. keeling wrote: Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Why are you against switching to UTF-8? Disk space? There really is no other disadvantage, and even the diskspace arguement doesn't count for much unless your drive is mostly uncompressed text files. Why would I be _for_ switching? I'm a unilingual Anglophile. utf-8 would gain me nothing. I'm glad utf-8 (et al) finally exists for those of you who who can use it or need it. However, it's irrelevant here. I only know English, and can puzzle out some words in other related western European languages. I'd guess my $HOME probably is mostly uncompressed text, source and documentation. In this case, it would do no bad. UTF-8 is compatible with ASCII, your files and acts will need no changes. Even if you used a language with a few accented characters (French, Spanish, Polish, etc.), your files would only change with regards to those characters (which would take 2 instead of one byte - but you could have French and Polish in the same file, for example). The difference is minimal, and, for English only, inexistent. -- The human race never solves any of its problems. It merely outlives them. -- David Gerrold Eduardo M KALINOWSKI [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://move.to/hpkb -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 04/26/08 08:57, s. keeling wrote: Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Why are you against switching to UTF-8? Disk space? There really is no other disadvantage, and even the diskspace arguement doesn't count for much unless your drive is mostly uncompressed text files. Why would I be _for_ switching? I'm a unilingual Anglophile. utf-8 Anglo*phile* or anglo*phone*? - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA We want... a Shrubbery!! -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIEzhJS9HxQb37XmcRAtuXAJ9mJxoUlgBn6KWk0YJbwWFHQ61BZACcD2rA XelEqu5ZOjzTfvzw2IjD9Co= =w0RV -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
2008/4/26 s. keeling [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Why would I be _for_ switching? I'm a unilingual Anglophile. utf-8 would gain me nothing. I'm glad utf-8 (et al) finally exists for those of you who who can use it or need it. However, it's irrelevant here. I only know English, and can puzzle out some words in other related western European languages. I'd guess my $HOME probably is mostly uncompressed text, source and documentation. For you, there is no real reason to switch. However, there are those who use proprietary encodings such as cp-* who's mail ends up as gibberish to the rest of the world. If you are ASCII-only, then no advantage to you. Carry on. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
2008/4/26 Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Why would I be _for_ switching? I'm a unilingual Anglophile. utf-8 Anglo*phile* or anglo*phone*? He likes to have sex with the English, apparently. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
Hi, On Sat, Apr 26, 2008 at 03:57:19PM +0200, s. keeling wrote: Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Why are you against switching to UTF-8? Disk space? There really is no other disadvantage, and even the diskspace arguement doesn't count for much unless your drive is mostly uncompressed text files. Why would I be _for_ switching? I'm a unilingual Anglophile. utf-8 would gain me nothing. I'm glad utf-8 (et al) finally exists for those of you who who can use it or need it. However, it's irrelevant here. I only know English, and can puzzle out some words in other related western European languages. I'd guess my $HOME probably is mostly uncompressed text, source and documentation. If you use only ASCII characters in UTF-8 encoded text file, it is exactly same as ASCII file in size and contents. Only when you have those alian characters, UTF-8 makes special multi byte sequence. If you are talking alian character support bloating data size, it is not UTF-8 encoded data. The fixed width encoding system UCS-4 etc. used to represent data in program tends to bload memory consumption of application. This memory consumption happens even if you use C environment. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Character_Set http://people.debian.org/~osamu/pub/getwiki/html/ch09.en.html#thelocale Osamu -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 04/26/08 09:34, Dotan Cohen wrote: 2008/4/26 Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Why would I be _for_ switching? I'm a unilingual Anglophile. utf-8 Anglo*phile* or anglo*phone*? He likes to have sex with the English, apparently. My first thought upon reading that was, rum, buggery and the lash. Apparently, I need psychological assistance... - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA We want... a Shrubbery!! -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIE03PS9HxQb37XmcRAgDjAKDUS0dQ7hFSGYV8877LCtoQjE5srwCgt/h9 sDiTVGmCEAuxVbWMqDP6T6w= =ZEVZ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
s. keeling wrote: Why would I be _for_ switching? I'm a unilingual Anglophile. utf-8 would gain me nothing. I'm glad utf-8 (et al) finally exists for those of you who who can use it or need it. However, it's irrelevant here. I only know English, and can puzzle out some words in other related western European languages. My native spoken language is American English. (Saying it that way because lately I more typically interact with computers via the keyboard using the C and Ruby and POSIX shell languages. :-) But I prefer UTF-8. Why? Because typeset English != US-ASCII. For example in written English one may use left and right quotation marks. These are not available in the us-ascii encoding. Additionally in the English business world there is a high rate of occurrance of trademark symbols and copyright symbols and other characters not present in us-ascii. All of those work very well with UTF-8. As an English only speaker I get great benefit from UTF-8. Bob signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
2008/4/26 Bob Proulx [EMAIL PROTECTED]: My native spoken language is American English. (Saying it that way because lately I more typically interact with computers via the keyboard using the C and Ruby and POSIX shell languages. :-) But I prefer UTF-8. Why? Because typeset English != US-ASCII. For example in written English one may use left and right quotation marks. These are not available in the us-ascii encoding. Additionally in the English business world there is a high rate of occurrance of trademark symbols and copyright symbols and other characters not present in us-ascii. All of those work very well with UTF-8. As an English only speaker I get great benefit from UTF-8. +5 Informative Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
[Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me? (was: Re: Grub2)
Sorry for the thread snatch. I'm (usually*) reading d-u in slrn via the mail to news gateway linux.debian.user. I've seen this before and I'm wondering if there's anything I can do about it, other than going utf-8 myself (I've no need for it (I think)). -- Bipin Babu [EMAIL PROTECTED]: --=_Part_7962_22139442.1209161466138 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline T24gRnJpLCBBcHIgMjUsIDIwMDggYXQgMTo1OCBQTSwgR2lsbGVzIE1vY2VsbGluIDxnaWxsZXMu bW9jZWxsaW5AZnJlZS5mcj4Kd3JvdGU6Cgo+IExlIEZyaWRheSAyNSBBcHJpbCAyMDA4IDE1OjUw -- Nothing in this mail is readable here, other than its headers and those Content-* lines. Is this just another reason for me to ignore posts from gmail, or is there anything I can do about it? I'm installing metamail now, but that's just a shot in the dark. Etch, slrn 0.9.8.1pl1. .slrnrc: set charset isolatin compatible_charsets us-ascii,iso-8859-1,iso-8859-15,utf-8 ~/.profile: export LANG=en_US.ISO-8859-15 export LC_COLLATE=C (0) phreaque /home/keeling_ locale LANG=en_US.ISO-8859-15 LC_CTYPE=en_US.ISO-8859-15 LC_NUMERIC=en_US.ISO-8859-15 LC_TIME=en_US.ISO-8859-15 LC_COLLATE=C LC_MONETARY=en_US.ISO-8859-15 LC_MESSAGES=en_US.ISO-8859-15 LC_PAPER=en_US.ISO-8859-15 LC_NAME=en_US.ISO-8859-15 LC_ADDRESS=en_US.ISO-8859-15 LC_TELEPHONE=en_US.ISO-8859-15 LC_MEASUREMENT=en_US.ISO-8859-15 LC_IDENTIFICATION=en_US.ISO-8859-15 LC_ALL= I have generated utf-8 locales on this thing, but I don't use them (I can't read/write/understand anything but English). slrn does well with many foreign chars, but every once in a while it hits complete a brick wall on some posts, and I haven't been able to nail it down yet. Thanks. * the gateway's currently reporting it's down for maintenance. -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*) Please don't Cc: me. - - -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 04/25/08 21:13, s. keeling wrote: Sorry for the thread snatch. I'm (usually*) reading d-u in slrn via the mail to news gateway linux.debian.user. I've seen this before and I'm wondering if there's anything I can do about it, other than going utf-8 myself (I've no need for it (I think)). -- Bipin Babu [EMAIL PROTECTED]: --=_Part_7962_22139442.1209161466138 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline T24gRnJpLCBBcHIgMjUsIDIwMDggYXQgMTo1OCBQTSwgR2lsbGVzIE1vY2VsbGluIDxnaWxsZXMu bW9jZWxsaW5AZnJlZS5mcj4Kd3JvdGU6Cgo+IExlIEZyaWRheSAyNSBBcHJpbCAyMDA4IDE1OjUw -- What's the subject timestamp of the message? I retain all mails, so I should be able to find it. Nothing in this mail is readable here, other than its headers and those Content-* lines. Is this just another reason for me to ignore posts from gmail, or is there anything I can do about it? I'm installing metamail now, but that's just a shot in the dark. Etch, slrn 0.9.8.1pl1. .slrnrc: set charset isolatin compatible_charsets us-ascii,iso-8859-1,iso-8859-15,utf-8 ~/.profile: export LANG=en_US.ISO-8859-15 export LC_COLLATE=C (0) phreaque /home/keeling_ locale LANG=en_US.ISO-8859-15 LC_CTYPE=en_US.ISO-8859-15 LC_NUMERIC=en_US.ISO-8859-15 LC_TIME=en_US.ISO-8859-15 LC_COLLATE=C LC_MONETARY=en_US.ISO-8859-15 LC_MESSAGES=en_US.ISO-8859-15 LC_PAPER=en_US.ISO-8859-15 LC_NAME=en_US.ISO-8859-15 LC_ADDRESS=en_US.ISO-8859-15 LC_TELEPHONE=en_US.ISO-8859-15 LC_MEASUREMENT=en_US.ISO-8859-15 LC_IDENTIFICATION=en_US.ISO-8859-15 LC_ALL= I have generated utf-8 locales on this thing, but I don't use them (I can't read/write/understand anything but English). slrn does well with many foreign chars, but every once in a while it hits complete a brick wall on some posts, and I haven't been able to nail it down yet. Thanks. * the gateway's currently reporting it's down for maintenance. - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA We want... a Shrubbery!! -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIEpyqS9HxQb37XmcRAiMrAKCMlqxReUEceJEojgoVPJQjuMTUNQCg1EsX 2EOQTcoa24KIJjWXELg5QLg= =Rm+u -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Kind of OT] Why's this look like gibberish to me?
On 26/04/2008, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 04/25/08 21:13, s. keeling wrote: Sorry for the thread snatch. I'm (usually*) reading d-u in slrn via the mail to news gateway linux.debian.user. I've seen this before and I'm wondering if there's anything I can do about it, other than going utf-8 myself (I've no need for it (I think)). -- Bipin Babu [EMAIL PROTECTED]: --=_Part_7962_22139442.1209161466138 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline T24gRnJpLCBBcHIgMjUsIDIwMDggYXQgMTo1OCBQTSwgR2lsbGVzIE1vY2VsbGluIDxnaWxsZXMu bW9jZWxsaW5AZnJlZS5mcj4Kd3JvdGU6Cgo+IExlIEZyaWRheSAyNSBBcHJpbCAyMDA4IDE1OjUw -- What's the subject timestamp of the message? I retain all mails, so I should be able to find it. Nothing in this mail is readable here, other than its headers and those Content-* lines. Is this just another reason for me to ignore posts from gmail, or is there anything I can do about it? I'm installing metamail now, but that's just a shot in the dark. Etch, slrn 0.9.8.1pl1. .slrnrc: set charset isolatin compatible_charsets us-ascii,iso-8859-1,iso-8859-15,utf-8 ~/.profile: export LANG=en_US.ISO-8859-15 export LC_COLLATE=C (0) phreaque /home/keeling_ locale LANG=en_US.ISO-8859-15 LC_CTYPE=en_US.ISO-8859-15 LC_NUMERIC=en_US.ISO-8859-15 LC_TIME=en_US.ISO-8859-15 LC_COLLATE=C LC_MONETARY=en_US.ISO-8859-15 LC_MESSAGES=en_US.ISO-8859-15 LC_PAPER=en_US.ISO-8859-15 LC_NAME=en_US.ISO-8859-15 LC_ADDRESS=en_US.ISO-8859-15 LC_TELEPHONE=en_US.ISO-8859-15 LC_MEASUREMENT=en_US.ISO-8859-15 LC_IDENTIFICATION=en_US.ISO-8859-15 LC_ALL= I have generated utf-8 locales on this thing, but I don't use them (I can't read/write/understand anything but English). slrn does well with many foreign chars, but every once in a while it hits complete a brick wall on some posts, and I haven't been able to nail it down yet. Thanks. * the gateway's currently reporting it's down for maintenance. Why are you against switching to UTF-8? Disk space? There really is no other disadvantage, and even the diskspace arguement doesn't count for much unless your drive is mostly uncompressed text files. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
