Re: disable GUI/X?

[tomas]

On Wed, Jun 19, 2024 at 04:39:50AM -, David Chmelik wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Jun 2024 22:39:15 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:
> 
> > David Chmelik composed on 2024-06-19 02:24 (UTC):
> > 
> >> How can I disable GUI/X for next boot?  I just want to run it when I
> >> decide as startx/startxfce/etc.
> > 
> > # systemctl get-default [...]

> What about in the case I use SysVInit so don't have systemctl?

Then you have an /etc/init.d/xdm (or gdm, or..., depending on your
display manager). And, if you don't feel like managing it manually,
you have update-rc.d, which comes with a manual page.

Cheers
-- 
t


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Re: dictd?

[Stanislav Vlasov]

ср, 19 июн. 2024 г. в 06:53, David Chmelik :

> How can I add a dictionary (I have dictionary.dict.gz & dictionary.index)
> to dictd?  Apparently doesn't work same as on *BSD UNIX & Slackware GNU/
> Linux...

man dictd:
   /usr/share/dictd
  The default directory for dictd databases (.index and
.dict[.dz] files)

Place files to /usr/share/dictd and run `dictdconfig -w` and restart
dictd service

-- 
Stanislav

Re: [HS] sauvegarde sur Disque Mécanique ou SSD

[Pierre Malard]

SSD :
Avantages : rapidité IO, consommation électrique, pas de pièces en mouvement
Inconvénients : nombre de IO limitée (entre 100.000 et 300.000 stricte), coût

HDD :
Avantages : coût, enregistrement magnétique permanent, durée de vie aléatoire
Inconvénients : consommation électrique, chaleur, pannes aléatoires

Si je mets la durée de vie aléatoire comma avantage pour les HDD c’est que 
lorsqu’on achète un ensemble de disques pour un NAS il est fort probable qu’ils 
ont été fabriqués … au même moment. Du coup ils tomberons en panne … en même 
temps après 100.000 à 300.000 IO. Et il n’y a pas de système RAID qui y résiste 
(expérience). Le seul moyen est d’acheter ses disques petit à petit, à des 
dates différentes, et, du coup, c’est très long.
Les disques classiques ont l’avantage de leur inconvénient, c’est à dire que, 
étant soumis à des mouvements physiques, il n’y a pas de durée de vie stricte. 
Cela assure presque de ne pas voir tous ses disques tomber en même temps sans 
vous laisser le temps de les remplacer. En plus, une alerte SMART permet 
d’anticiper.

Enfin, dans le cas d’une sauvegarde, ce n’est pas la performance d’écriture qui 
arrive en premier. Du coup l’avantage des SSD est très relatif.

Sources :
https://www.zdnet.fr/actualites/disques-ssd-des-baies-de-stockage-plus-performantes-et-plus-fiables-39380596.htm
 

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/SSD 


> Le 18 juin 2024 à 18:53, Miquel Demur  a écrit :
> 
> Bonjour,
> 
> J'avais lu que le disque SSD était plus fragile à la chaleur; mais le HDD est 
> d'une haute technologie fragile.
> quelle est la part dans le risque de perdre des données entre le HDD et le 
> SSD ?
> 
> Avec mes remerciements,
> 
> 

--
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Responsable architectures système CDS DINAMIS/THEIA Montpellier
IRD - UMR Espace-Dev - UAR CPST - IR Data-Terra
Maison de la Télédétection
500 rue Jean-François Breton
34093 Montpellier Cx 5
France

Tél : +33 626 89 22 68

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 on ne livre pas la façon de s’en servir »
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(  `'"'"'-'"'"': '"'"'-3'"'"'2(_/--'"'"'  `-'"'"'\_): 
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- --> Ce message n’engage que son auteur <--



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Re: disable GUI/X?

[Felix Miata]

David Chmelik composed on 2024-06-19 04:39 (UTC):

> On Tue, 18 Jun 2024 22:39:15 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:

>> David Chmelik composed on 2024-06-19 02:24 (UTC):

>>> How can I disable GUI/X for next boot?  I just want to run it when I
>>> decide as startx/startxfce/etc.

>> # systemctl get-default # reports bootup state # systemctl set-default
>> graphical.target sets GUI as default state # systemctl set-default
>> multi-user.target brings system up without GUI running

>> For a single boot to finish at multi-user, simply append 3 to the end of
>> the (usually wrapped) linu line after striking E key at the default Grub
>> menu selection. If already using multi-user.target default, append 5 to
>> linu line to get a full GUI boot.

> What about in the case I use SysVInit so don't have systemctl?

One way, rather extreme but effective, would be to find a distribution neither
systemd nor Debian based. Many have or had more than Debian's two sustaining
runlevels. E.g. Fedora, Mageia and openSUSE and those much like them before
systemd existed are where those numbers 3 & 5 came from. Whereas in Debian there
were only 1/S and 2 for sustaining runlevels, for simply single and everything,
the others had more granularity:

1/S-single/recovery
2-multiuser with partial networking
3-full multiuser (everything except X)
4-unused
5-full multiuser plus X

Slackware uses 4 instead of 5 but otherwise is the same, and still focused on 
SysV.

I never did learn any easy way to do as requested in Debian prior to systemd. I
didn't use it much then either. For me, systemd has mostly been an advantage 
over
SysV tradition.
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion,
based on faith, not based on science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata

Re: network question

[Marco Moock]

Am Wed, 19 Jun 2024 10:14:32 +0800
schrieb Jeff Peng :

> when my server is a vps who has floating IP (that means, the server's
> iP is an internal IP, the public ip is bond on provider's
> router/firewall devices), then my ssh client connecting to the server
> will never disconnect even if I changed my local gateway (for example
> switching VPN).

If you enable a VPN tunnel traffic may go through, but it is also
possible to bind it to a specific interface tat doesn't care about the
tunnel.
Use a network sniffer to investigate that.

> if the vps is a normal IPv4 box then switching localnet will always 
> disconnect.

Please specify exactly what are you doing here.

Re: disable GUI/X?

[David Chmelik]

On Tue, 18 Jun 2024 22:39:15 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:

> David Chmelik composed on 2024-06-19 02:24 (UTC):
> 
>> How can I disable GUI/X for next boot?  I just want to run it when I
>> decide as startx/startxfce/etc.
> 
> # systemctl get-default # reports bootup state # systemctl set-default
> graphical.target sets GUI as default state # systemctl set-default
> multi-user.target brings system up without GUI running
> 
> For a single boot to finish at multi-user, simply append 3 to the end of
> the (usually wrapped) linu line after striking E key at the default Grub
> menu selection. If already using multi-user.target default, append 5 to
> linu line to get a full GUI boot.

What about in the case I use SysVInit so don't have systemctl?

Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[tomas]

On Tue, Jun 18, 2024 at 11:02:58PM -0500, David Wright wrote:

[...]

> > >set-timezone [TIMEZONE]
> > >Set the system time zone [...]

[...]

> > I cringe a bit when I see that.
> 
> See what, exactly? I can see three things, potentially.

Especially that bit with the "system timezone". Reminds me of some
remote past, where a system actually had a timezone (and changed its
clock twice a year). Back then we used to set all our networked
Windows boxen to a time zone without summer time change (ISTR it
was Monrovia/Liberia) to avoid having our Makefiles freaking out
twice a year.

Cheers
-- 
t


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Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[David Wright]

On Tue 18 Jun 2024 at 07:07:36 (-0400), Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 23:54:03 -0500, David Wright wrote:
> > What should I call the timezone of my computer when it's booted up and
> > no users are logged in?
> 
> Daemons will almost always use the system's default time zone (the one
> specified by /etc/localtime or /etc/timezone).
> 
> It's *theoretically* possible for some daemons to be configured to use
> a different time zone, or to be hard-coded to use UTC.  I've never seen
> this, but it could be done.

In view of that, I think it's reasonable to drop the "default",
and go with "system time zone", ie the time zone that the system
clock it set to.

> Usually a daemon's time zone will only affect log messages that it
> writes.  It's uncommon for a daemon process to use a time zone for
> anything other than timestamping messages.  Of course, it depends on
> the individual daemon.

Well, it's anything related to time, I suppose, like cron, systemd
timers, clock displays, and so on. I just don't understand the idea
of a computer not having a system time in a time zone.

(And I'm leaving aside any connected devices, filesystems, etc
that might handle times, but only in a single, local time.)

Cheers,
David.

RTC, was Re: System time/timezone

[David Wright]

On Tue 18 Jun 2024 at 04:12:07 (-0400), Jeffrey Walton wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 18, 2024 at 4:05 AM  wrote:
> > On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 11:54:03PM -0500, David Wright wrote:
> > > [...]
> > > I notice that   man timedatectl   says:
> > >
> > >set-timezone [TIMEZONE]
> > >Set the system time zone to the specified value.
> > >Available timezones can be listed with list-timezones.
> > >If the RTC is configured to be in the local time, this
> > >will also update the RTC time. This call will alter
> > >the /etc/localtime symlink. See localtime(5) for more
> > >information.
> >
> > I cringe a bit when I see that.
> 
> Yeah.. on Linux, it is recommended to keep the RTC clock in UTC.
> Unless Windows has contaminated the machine. See
> .

Here's your subthread for discussing the RTC, as it's a separate
issue from the system's time zone.

(I believe I'm correct in saying that Windows has long been able,
by means of a registry key setting, to run with the RTC set to UTC.)

Cheers,
David.

Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[David Wright]

On Tue 18 Jun 2024 at 10:04:45 (+0200), to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 11:54:03PM -0500, David Wright wrote:
> > On Mon 17 Jun 2024 at 19:40:30 (+0200), to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > > On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 01:20:53PM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > > > Time zones are not in effect for users, either; they're in effect for
> > > > processes [...]
> > > 
> > > Right you are.
> > 
> > So it comes down to nomenclature.
> > 
> > What should I call the timezone of my computer when it's booted up and
> > no users are logged in?
> 
> [...]
> 
> Most processes don't need one. When they display datetimes to a user
> timezone becomes relevant.

… which, as well as ignoring the minority that do, doesn't give me
an answer.

> >   $ date; timedatectl status
> >   Mon Jun 17 23:51:43 CDT 2024
> >  Local time: Tue 2024-06-18 04:51:43 UTC
> >  Universal time: Tue 2024-06-18 04:51:43 UTC
> >RTC time: Tue 2024-06-18 04:51:43
> >   Time zone: Etc/UTC (UTC, +)
> >   System clock synchronized: yes
> > NTP service: active
> > RTC in local TZ: no
> >   $ 
> > 
> > I notice that   man timedatectl   says:
> > 
> >set-timezone [TIMEZONE]
> >Set the system time zone to the specified value.
> >Available timezones can be listed with list-timezones.
> >If the RTC is configured to be in the local time, this
> >will also update the RTC time. This call will alter
> >the /etc/localtime symlink. See localtime(5) for more
> >information.
> 
> I cringe a bit when I see that.

See what, exactly? I can see three things, potentially.

Cheers,
David.

Re: testing, various tmpfs /run directories, df -x tmpfs

[David Wright]

On Tue 18 Jun 2024 at 19:29:31 (-0400), songbird wrote:

> "df -x tmpfs" does the magic and gives me the better view that is
> more useful.

FWIW I define dfree as:

  df --output=source,ipcent,fstype,size,used,avail,pcent,target -B 100 -x 
tmpfs -x devtmpfs -x fuse.portal | sed -E 's/([^ ] )/\1 /g'

which produces a listing like:

  $ dfree
  Filesystem  IUse%  Type  1MB-blocksUsed   Avail  Use%  Mounted  on
  /dev/nvme0n1p223%  ext4   30783   17131   12063   59%  /
  /dev/nvme0n1p3 3%  ext4   307831922   272727%  /apex-partial
  /dev/nvme0n1p1  -  vfat 523  21 5025%  /boot/efi
  /dev/dm-0  2%  ext4  390073  186974  183209   51%  /home
  $ 

For filesystems, I find a uniform MB works better than "human-readable" sizes.

Cheers,
David.

Re: disable GUI/X?

[Greg Wooledge]

On Tue, Jun 18, 2024 at 22:39:15 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:
> David Chmelik composed on 2024-06-19 02:24 (UTC):
> 
> > How can I disable GUI/X for next boot?  I just want to run it when I
> > decide as startx/startxfce/etc.
> 
> # systemctl get-default # reports bootup state
> # systemctl set-default graphical.target sets GUI as default state
> # systemctl set-default multi-user.target brings system up without GUI running
> 
> For a single boot to finish at multi-user, simply append 3 to the end of the
> (usually wrapped) linu line after striking E key at the default Grub menu
> selection. If already using multi-user.target default, append 5 to linu line 
> to
> get a full GUI boot.

Or if you *never* want to use a graphical display manager for login,
just remove the display manager package, whichever one it is.

Re: disable GUI/X?

[Felix Miata]

David Chmelik composed on 2024-06-19 02:24 (UTC):

> How can I disable GUI/X for next boot?  I just want to run it when I
> decide as startx/startxfce/etc.

# systemctl get-default # reports bootup state
# systemctl set-default graphical.target sets GUI as default state
# systemctl set-default multi-user.target brings system up without GUI running

For a single boot to finish at multi-user, simply append 3 to the end of the
(usually wrapped) linu line after striking E key at the default Grub menu
selection. If already using multi-user.target default, append 5 to linu line to
get a full GUI boot.
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion,
based on faith, not based on science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata

disable GUI/X?

[David Chmelik]

How can I disable GUI/X for next boot?  I just want to run it when I
decide as startx/startxfce/etc.

dictd

[David Chmelik]

How can I add a dictionary (I have dictionary.dict.gz & dictionary.index)
to dictd?

network question

[Jeff Peng]

may I ask a network question?

when my server is a vps who has floating IP (that means, the server's iP 
is an internal IP, the public ip is bond on provider's router/firewall 
devices), then my ssh client connecting to the server will never 
disconnect even if I changed my local gateway (for example switching 
VPN).


if the vps is a normal IPv4 box then switching localnet will always 
disconnect.


what's the reason?

thanks.

dictd?

[David Chmelik]

How can I add a dictionary (I have dictionary.dict.gz & dictionary.index) 
to dictd?  Apparently doesn't work same as on *BSD UNIX & Slackware GNU/
Linux...

NVIDIA drivers issue: Bug that keeps presenting on kernel 6.1.0-21

[Daniel Rodriguez]

Hello team,

by installing NVIDIA drivers as per the guideline of Debian on Debian 12,
it shows an error as follows:

Building initial module for 6.1.0-21-amd64
> readelf: Error: Not an ELF file - it has the wrong magic bytes at the start
> readelf: Error: Not an ELF file - it has the wrong magic bytes at the start
> Error! Bad return status for module build on kernel: 6.1.0-21-amd64
> (x86_64)
> Consult /var/lib/dkms/nvidia-current/525.147.05/build/make.log for more
> information.
> dpkg: error processing package nvidia-kernel-dkms (--configure):
>  installed nvidia-kernel-dkms package post-installation script subprocess
> returned error exit status 10
> dpkg: dependency problems prevent configuration of nvidia-driver:
>  nvidia-driver depends on nvidia-kernel-dkms (= 525.147.05-7~deb12u1) |
> nvidia-kernel-525.147.05 | nvidia-open-kernel-525.147.05 |
> nvidia-open-kernel-525.147.05; however:
>   Package nvidia-kernel-dkms is not configured yet.
>   Package nvidia-kernel-525.147.05 is not installed.
>   Package nvidia-kernel-dkms which provides nvidia-kernel-525.147.05 is
> not configured yet.
>   Package nvidia-open-kernel-525.147.05 is not installed.
>   Package nvidia-open-kernel-525.147.05 is not installed.
>

I researched about it and I found this post

wherein
a person explains how to troubleshoot by enabling verbose option on dkms.
As a summary of my troubleshooting it hits the same issue. By checking out
the file /var/lib/dkms/nvidia-current/525.147.05/build/make.log as
initially the logs suggest, I found the following logs:

/bin/sh: 1: ./tools/bpf/resolve_btfids/resolve_btfids: not found
> make[3]: ***
> [/usr/src/linux-headers-6.1.0-21-common/scripts/Makefile.modfinal:63:
> /var/lib/dkms/nvidia-current/525.147.05/build/nvidia-peermem.ko] Error 127
> make[3]: *** Deleting file
> '/var/lib/dkms/nvidia-current/525.147.05/build/nvidia-peermem.ko'
>

The post

presents the bug: Debian Bug report logs - #1027306 linux-kbuild-6.0:
missing `resolve_btfids` and some scripts
, as a reason
for the log:

/bin/sh: 1: ./tools/bpf/resolve_btfids/resolve_btfids: not found


The solution of the post

to this issue is to update the kernel from 6.1.0-13 -> 6.1.0.18; however,
my kernel is a later version: 6.1.0-21-amd64, so I am stuck for solving
this issue. Do you have any idea about what may be happening and/or how to
solve it?

testing, various tmpfs /run directories, df -x tmpfs

[songbird]

recent bloat of tmpfs /run/{blah}

  looks horrible whenever i check the status of my file systems.

  it would be much better if those all went under just one tmpfs.

luckily there is an option for that so i'll alias df with that
option included.  :)


=

Filesystem  Size  Used Avail Use% Mounted on
tmpfs   781M  1.3M  780M   1% /run
tmpfs   5.0M  4.0K  5.0M   1% /run/lock
tmpfs   1.0M 0  1.0M   0% /run/credentials/systemd-journald.service
tmpfs   1.0M 0  1.0M   0% 
/run/credentials/systemd-udev-load-credentials.service
tmpfs   1.0M 0  1.0M   0% /run/credentials/systemd-sysctl.service
tmpfs   1.0M 0  1.0M   0% 
/run/credentials/systemd-tmpfiles-setup-dev-early.service
tmpfs   1.0M 0  1.0M   0% 
/run/credentials/systemd-tmpfiles-setup-dev.service
tmpfs   1.0M 0  1.0M   0% 
/run/credentials/systemd-tmpfiles-setup.service
tmpfs   781M   64K  781M   1% /run/user/1000
tmpfs   1.0M 0  1.0M   0% /run/credentials/getty@tty1.service

=

"df -x tmpfs" does the magic and gives me the better view that is
more useful.


  songbird

Documentation improvement (optical and USB install media)

[Dan Ritter]

Nobody is advocating removing the optical disk media options.

There are no plans to do so, that I am aware of.

Planning to do so would not make sense, since the current build
process happily produces images suitable for both optical disks
and USB filesystem devices.

All the discussion has been about documentation changes, to make
it more clear how to use the existing images.


-dsr-

Re: [HS] sauvegarde sur Disque Mécanique ou SSD

[Miquel Demur]

https://www.lemagit.fr/conseil/Pourquoi-les-sauvegardes-sur-bandes-redeviennent-populaires

Re: [HS] sauvegarde sur Disque Mécanique ou SSD

[Sébastien Dinot]

MERLIN Philippe a écrit :
> Mon besoin un disque d'un 1 To disque mécanique ou SSD ?

Savoir s'il vaut mieux utiliser un disque mécanique ou un disque
électronique (SSD / NVMe) est un troll interminable, qui fait passer les
gens à côté du point essentiel : tout matériel est intrinsèquement
faillible, tout matériel peut être détruit par un court-circuit, une
inondation ou un incendie, tout matériel peut être volé.

Il en découle un principe couramment énoncé :

* Il faut réaliser plusieurs sauvegardes (et non plusieurs copie de la
  sauvegarde, ce qui entrainerait la propagation de la corruption) ;

* Ces sauvegardes doivent être réalisées sur des supports différents ;

* Ces sauvegardes doivent être stockées sur des sites différents.

Une autre exigence absolue est d'utiliser un outil qui historise les
sauvegardes sur une durée assez longue. Il ne faut pas se contenter d'un
outil qui effectue une copie destructive des données (la nouvelle
version d'un fichier écrasant l'ancienne). Cette précaution permet de
retrouver une version ancienne et non corrompue du fichier.

À cela, d'aucuns ajoutent :

* Ces sauvegardes doivent être réalisées par des outils différents ;

* Ces sauvegardes doivent être réalisées de manière automatique, sur des
  supports en ligne (cette stratégie expose les sauvegardes et requiert
  donc une sécurisation accrue), car les sauvegardes sur des supports
  amovibles nécessitent des opérations manuelles, fastidieuses et
  répétées qui conduisent invariablement l'utilisateur à espacer les
  sauvegardes.

* La consistance de ces sauvegardes doit être vérifiée régulièrement par
  des restaurations et un contrôle de l'environnement restauré (cela
  peut s'avérer compliqué et chronophage).

Une politique de sauvegarde sérieuse peut demander un budget conséquent
et tout le monde n'en a pas les moyens ou ne souhaite pas mobiliser
autant d'argent pour une fonction sans valeur ajoutée au quotidien et
dont on espère bien ne jamais avoir besoin.

Si on n'a pas les moyens d'acheter deux NAS ou de louer deux espaces de
stockage en ligne, tant pis, deux disques valent mieux que rien. Et si
on n'a pas les moyens d'acheter deux disques, tant pis, deux clés USB
sur laquelle on copie les données essentielles valent mieux que rien.

Pour ma part, j'utilise :

* Pour mes sauvegardes quotidiennes et automatisées :
  * Un espace de stockage loué à Hetzner ;
  * Un NAS local.
  
* Pour mes sauvegardes manuelles, que je fais en plus des précédentes,
  quand j'y pense et j'ai le temps (en moyenne une fois toutes les
  3 à 4 semaines) :
  * Trois disques mécaniques externes : un stocké dans mon appartement,
un que j'ai toujours sur moi et un que je stocke dans un tiroir sous
clé au travail. Je veille bien entendu à faire tourner ces disques.

Toutes mes sauvegardes sont chiffrées localement, i.e. sur la machine
sauvegardée, avant d'être envoyées sur le support final.

Il y a quelques mois, j'ai installé le nouveau poste de travail familial
en utilisant l'une de ces sauvegardes pour vérifier leur consistance.
Cela m'a permis de vérifier que :

* J'avais bien sauvegardé toutes les données utiles ;

* Récupérer 300 Go de données depuis un espace de stockage en ligne
  prend un certain temps (mais je voulais jouer le pire des scénarios
  pour vérifier qu'il était jouable).

Sébastien


-- 
Sébastien Dinot, sebastien.di...@free.fr
http://www.palabritudes.net/
Ne goutez pas au logiciel libre, vous ne pourriez plus vous en passer !

Re: CD/DVD is obsolete or deprecate at 2025?

[James H. H. Lampert]

On 6/18/24 10:01 AM, John Hasler wrote:

JHHL writes:

Some of us still prefer physical media


Do you mean read-only media?  All media are physical.


No, I mean physical media as opposed to downloads.

Application software, I've resigned myself to downloads, although as I 
said, I am not happy with software that installs updates of dubious 
value without so much as a how-do-you-do.


Even operating systems, when there is no other choice available.

But I prefer my books to be in a form made from an eminently sustainable 
and recyclable resource, a form requiring (at least for the sighted) no 
auxiliary hardware other than maybe a pair of reading glasses (which I 
now need even to read screens). A form that can also be adapted to those 
who read with their fingertips. A form that a publisher cannot yank away 
from those who paid good money.


As for recorded music and audiovisual content, I again prefer something 
that cannot be taken away without physically carrying it off. And I have 
the additional objection here that the most common digital music formats 
use lossy compression. *VERY* lossy compression. And I find it 
thoroughly laughable when vinyl-snobs listen to homemade MP3 dubs of 
their records (surface noise, compression artifacts, and all).


But this is veering far off-topic. My previous message was mainly to 
point out that the thread title can scare the  out of people, 
and seems to have very little to do with what the thread is actually 
*about,* i.e., it appears to be about delivery forms other than optical 
or magnetic media for OS and application software, and compatibility of 
disk-images with those forms. Not about *getting rid of* optical media 
(or magnetic media, for that matter).

Re: CD/DVD is obsolete or deprecate at 2025?

[Karen Lewellen]

Freely owning I have not followed this entire thread, I simply wish to add 
a couple of points.
First, Linux is, or was represented to me, to reflect choices.  Those 
included  many paths to incorporating the system, allowing an individual 
to use the equipment they have right now to draw upon Linux.
Second, I have two machines in this room both of which are less than 10 
years old, that have cd DVD drives in them, and allow for those boot 
choices.  after all,  one might choose to enjoy music, or a film, without 
the need for  bondage, and subscription factors,  in those formats.

My point is this.
Given how vast the digital divide can be globally, why not insure choices 
to accessing Linux in general and Debian particularly?
Just because your machines are 20 years old, does not mean that is the 
case 
for everyone.

Just my thoughts,



On Tue, 18 Jun 2024, Stefan Monnier wrote:


And some of the BIOSes of old PCs are not able to boot from USB...


Indeed, tho I suspect those machines are 20 years old or more (at least,
all my machines that are <20 years old support booting from a USB key
drive, while of the two older machines I have (both 21 years old), one
of them doesn't support booting from a USB key (tho it supposedly can
boot from USB floppy)).


   Stefan

Re: [HS] sauvegarde sur Disque Mécanique ou SSD

[Dethegeek]

Tu as toujours un risque. Ou alors tu passes sur bande. Ça c'est réputé
assez increvable

Le mar. 18 juin 2024 à 19:12, Miquel Demur  a écrit :

> Bonjour,
>
> J'avais lu que le disque SSD était plus fragile à la chaleur; mais le HDD
> est d'une haute technologie fragile.
> quelle est la part dans le risque de perdre des données entre le HDD et le
> SSD ?
>
> Avec mes remerciements,
>
>

Re: [HS] sauvegarde sur Disque Mécanique ou SSD

[Miquel Demur]

Bonjour,

J'avais lu que le disque SSD était plus fragile à la chaleur; mais le
HDD est d'une haute technologie fragile.
quelle est la part dans le risque de perdre des données entre le HDD et
le SSD ?

Avec mes remerciements,

Re: CD/DVD is obsolete or deprecate at 2025?

[John Hasler]

JHHL writes:
> Some of us still prefer physical media

Do you mean read-only media?  All media are physical.
-- 
John Hasler 
j...@sugarbit.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: CD/DVD is obsolete or deprecate at 2025?

[James H. H. Lampert]

On 6/17/24 7:44 PM, Thomas Dineen wrote:

No! Some of us want to keep using DVD and not be pushed away


What he said.

Might I humbly suggest that this whole thread title is provocative, 
alarming, and maybe even a little inflamatory?


Some of us still prefer physical media, whether in the form of printed 
books, CDs, tapes, DVDs, vinyl,  Most of my computers have at least 
one drive capable of handling physical media, and most of those that 
don't can talk to my USB optical drive. And I regularly "sneakernet" 
files between two of them, on a Zip Disk. And my stereo system still has 
a CD drive, a CD-R drive, and a tape deck . . . but NOTHING that can 
deal with downloaded recordings unless burned onto physical media. And I 
LIKE IT THAT WAY.


I will note that when my previous DOSbook failed, I needed PC-DOS 2000 
on physical media in order to do the OS-install.


And I'll also note that at present, the Linux subsystem on my Chromebook 
is, in a word, hosed, and I blame that on unasked-for "updates" (of 
dubious value at best) being foisted upon me.


--
JHHL

Re: CD/DVD is obsolete or deprecate at 2025?

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

George at Clug wrote:
> I have never been able to use .jigdo or understand jigdo, sadly I do not
> know how to use them. ISOs I understand.

Go by "cd" into a directory where you have enough space to store the
ISO and try this:

  https://wiki.debian.org/JigdoOnLive#Download_one_or_more_Jigdo_ISOs

(Ignore the last few sentences about the screensaver of the Debian Live
system, unless you really do this with such a system.)

Possibly it is necessary to install Debian package "jigdo-file":
  https://wiki.debian.org/JigdoOnLive#Install_package_jigdo-file

If your Debian is very old, you need to help the program "jigdo-file"
with downloading the .jidgo and .template file:
  
https://wiki.debian.org/JigdoOnLive#If_needed.2C_work_around_a_shortcoming_of_older_jigdo-lite

The run of jigdo-lite for a 50 GB ISO will last quite some time.
If it aborts (maybe because you decided to abort it) then you may resume
it at any time by going into the same directory and run "jigdo-lite" again
with the same input.


> I found this link, but do not understand what it is saying. It suggests
> "these images may also be written directly to a USB stick" but does not show
> how to do this.
> https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/jigdo-16G/

This text appears on all the amd64 pages of
  https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd
It simply means that you may use the usual methods of putting the ISO
plainly onto the base device file of the USB stick: cp, dd, ...


> # cp 
> https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/jigdo-dlbd/debian-12.5.0-amd64-DLBD-1.jigdo
> /dev/sdf  (but I guess this does not work?)

No, this is too optimistic. :))
But the URL is the answer to one of the three questions by jigdo-lite.

The .jigdo file is mainly a compressed list of packages which the program
"jigdo-lite" shall download and put into the ISO 9660 image framework that
is defined by the .template file.
You can view its cleartext by:
  gunzip https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/jigdo-dlbd/SHA256SUMS
i.e.
  bb72436cede8b59ccca8ba6f802d97ebfd944a87bfc1edb94be361e849545249  
debian-12.5.0-amd64-DLBD-1.iso


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: CD/DVD is obsolete or deprecate at 2025?

[George at Clug]

On Wednesday, 19-06-2024 at 00:08 Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> George at Clug wrote:
> > 1) I use DVD ISO images to create a bootable USB flash drive. Super easy to
> > do. I do not know how to do this with BD images, so if you do, please let me
> > know.
> > # ls -hal /dev/sd*
> > # cp CentOS-7-x86_64-Everything-2009.iso /dev/sdf
> 
> As far as Debian amd64 ISOs are concerned, all first volumes of a media
> set have the boot equipment for booting via BIOS and EFI from optical
> medium and USB stick.
> So the usual ways of plainly copying the image to the base device of the
> USB stick will work: cp, dd, Rufus, xorriso-dd-target, ...
> Some of them impose the risk to shoot the own foot. In contrast, one can
> hardly overwrite the system disk while burning an optical medium.
> 
> The biggest available Debian 12.5 amd64 ISO is "DLBD-1" with about 50 GB:
>   
> https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/jigdo-dlbd/debian-12.5.0-amd64-DLBD-1.jigdo
>   
> https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/jigdo-dlbd/debian-12.5.0-amd64-DLBD-1.template
> It is possible to merge it with DLBD-2 to get an All-in-one ISO.

I have never been able to use .jigdo or understand jigdo, sadly I do not know 
how to use them. ISOs I understand.

I found this link, but do not understand what it is saying. It suggests "these 
images may also be written directly to a USB stick" but does not show how to do 
this.
https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/jigdo-16G/

If you can show the commands that produces a very large ISO from a BD .jigdo 
file, then that would help.

Something like: (??) 

# wget 
https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/jigdo-dlbd/debian-12.5.0-amd64-DLBD-1.jigdo
# cp 
https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/jigdo-dlbd/debian-12.5.0-amd64-DLBD-1.jigdo
 /dev/sdf  (but I guess this does not work?)

George.

> 
> 
> Have a nice day :)
> 
> Thomas
> 
> 

Re: [HS] sauvegarde sur Disque Mécanique ou SSD

[Frederic Zulian]

Bonjour,

A chacun ses besoins et ses préférences.

2 exemples :

- Pro,   PC clients (SSD) ---> Serveur fichiers  (Raid 5 DD  mécaniques)
 > NAS (Raid 2 mécaniques) -->  SSD, Sauvegarde incrémentale tous les
mois (conservé dans un coffre, connecté uniquement pour le temps des
sauvegardes).

- Perso, PC clients  (nmve) --> NAS  (Synology)  raid 5  DD mécaniques -->
Sauvegarde complète 2 x par an (DD mécanique).

Frédéric ZULIAN


Le mar. 18 juin 2024 à 16:06, Dethegeek  a écrit :

> Pour aller encore plus loin que ce se dit Pierre, si tu la criticité est
> telle que tu as besoin de RAID pour tes sauvegardes, tu dois aussi mettre
> en place un plan de simulation de restauration des sauvegardes. En effet
> c'est assez frustrant de de rendre compte que ta sauvegarde n'est pas
> valide au moment où tu en as besoin.
>
> Mais vu où vont les réponses, peut être qu'il faudrait cadrer la question.
> Usage perso / pro ? Valeur des données / coût du dispositif que tu veux
> mettre en place ?
>
> Le mar. 18 juin 2024 à 15:54, Pierre Malard <
> pierre.mal...@teledetection.fr> a écrit :
>
>> Bonjour,
>>
>> Il y a 2 choses à regarder pour monter une solution de sauvegarde :
>> La durabilité des disques
>> La solidité de l’espace dédié
>>
>> Il est certain que tout ce qui est SSD est + rapide mais ils ont la
>> mauvaise habitude d’avoir une durée de vie très limitée en terme I/O
>> (100.000 il me semble). Du coup j’opte pour du HD.
>> Pour ce qui est de la solidité de l’espace dédié, j’entends par là la
>> résistance aux pannes des disques. Cela signifie au moins un RAID1 (2
>> disques miroir) ou mieux un RAID5 (continuité si un disque crame) ou 6
>> (résistance à 2 disques cramés) (4 ou 5 disques). Comme ça, si un disque
>> tombe en panne on à le temps d’en acheter un et de le remplacer à chaud. Du
>> coup il vaut mieux éviter les SSD car achetés ensemble ils tomberons …
>> ensemble (expérience).
>>
>> Quitte à opter pour du RAID, je me pencherais sur les solutions NAS
>> (Synology ou QNap par exemple) qui ont l’avantage d’offrir ce service avec
>> le même OS quelque soit la taille du NAS.
>>
>> Personnellement j’utilise un petit Synology (DS918+) 4 disques HDD
>> formatés en Hybrid RAID (SHR) qui est entre le RAID 5 et 6. J’ai ajouté 2
>> petits SSD en RAID1 qui servent de cache IO pour accélérer les échanges.
>> Mais ils doivent avoir d’autres modèles maintenant.
>>
>> Un autre solution est de louer de l’espace de sauvegarde chez un
>> fournisseur comme OVH ou IONOS. Ils se chargent de la sécurisation mais
>> c’est un coût de location…
>>
>> Le 18 juin 2024 à 12:33, MERLIN Philippe 
>> a écrit :
>>
>> Bonjour,
>> J'aimerai avoir l'avis de la liste sur le choix du support de sauvegarde
>> pour
>> un petit ordinateur personnel.
>> Mon besoin un disque d'un 1 To disque mécanique ou SSD ?
>> Avantage Disque Mécanique Prix moins cher quoi que les prix des SSD ont
>> baissé
>> et se rapproche des disques Mécaniques.
>> Dans les disques Mécanique  je connais  Seagate, Toshiba  y a t'il
>> des
>> Marques à éviter absolument ?
>> Avantage SSD trés léger et peu encombrant ,rapidité de transfert mais
>> pour une
>> sauvegarde je ne vois pas l'intérêt.
>> Vous avez certainement votre opinion basée sur l'expérience.
>> Que me conseillez vous?
>> Philippe Merlin
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Pierre Malard
>> Responsable architectures système CDS DINAMIS/THEIA Montpellier
>> IRD - UMR Espace-Dev - UAR CPST - IR Data-Terra
>> Maison de la Télédétection
>> 500 rue Jean-François Breton
>> 34093 Montpellier Cx 5
>> France
>>
>> Tél : +33 626 89 22 68
>>
>>«*Mittler zwischen hirn und händen muss das hirz sein *!»
>>«*La médiation entre le cerveau et les mains doit être le cœur !*»
>>  Fritz Lang -
>> "Métropolis" - 1929
>>|\  _,,,---,,_
>>/,`.-'`'-.  ;-;;,_
>>   |,4-  ) )-,_. ,\ (  `'-'
>>  '---''(_/--'  `-'\_)   πr
>>
>> perl -e '$_=q#: 3|\ 5_,3-3,2_: 3/,`.'"'"'`'"'"' 5-.  ;-;;,_:  |,A-  )
>> )-,_. ,\ (  `'"'"'-'"'"': '"'"'-3'"'"'2(_/--'"'"'  `-'"'"'\_):
>> 24πr::#;y#:#\n#;s#(\D)(\d+)#$1x$2#ge;print'
>> - --> Ce message n’engage que son auteur <--
>>
>>

Re: CD/DVD is obsolete or deprecate at 2025?

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

George at Clug wrote:
> 1) I use DVD ISO images to create a bootable USB flash drive. Super easy to
> do. I do not know how to do this with BD images, so if you do, please let me
> know.
> # ls -hal /dev/sd*
> # cp CentOS-7-x86_64-Everything-2009.iso /dev/sdf

As far as Debian amd64 ISOs are concerned, all first volumes of a media
set have the boot equipment for booting via BIOS and EFI from optical
medium and USB stick.
So the usual ways of plainly copying the image to the base device of the
USB stick will work: cp, dd, Rufus, xorriso-dd-target, ...
Some of them impose the risk to shoot the own foot. In contrast, one can
hardly overwrite the system disk while burning an optical medium.

The biggest available Debian 12.5 amd64 ISO is "DLBD-1" with about 50 GB:
  
https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/jigdo-dlbd/debian-12.5.0-amd64-DLBD-1.jigdo
  
https://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/current/amd64/jigdo-dlbd/debian-12.5.0-amd64-DLBD-1.template
It is possible to merge it with DLBD-2 to get an All-in-one ISO.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: [HS] sauvegarde sur Disque Mécanique ou SSD

[Dethegeek]

Pour aller encore plus loin que ce se dit Pierre, si tu la criticité est
telle que tu as besoin de RAID pour tes sauvegardes, tu dois aussi mettre
en place un plan de simulation de restauration des sauvegardes. En effet
c'est assez frustrant de de rendre compte que ta sauvegarde n'est pas
valide au moment où tu en as besoin.

Mais vu où vont les réponses, peut être qu'il faudrait cadrer la question.
Usage perso / pro ? Valeur des données / coût du dispositif que tu veux
mettre en place ?

Le mar. 18 juin 2024 à 15:54, Pierre Malard 
a écrit :

> Bonjour,
>
> Il y a 2 choses à regarder pour monter une solution de sauvegarde :
> La durabilité des disques
> La solidité de l’espace dédié
>
> Il est certain que tout ce qui est SSD est + rapide mais ils ont la
> mauvaise habitude d’avoir une durée de vie très limitée en terme I/O
> (100.000 il me semble). Du coup j’opte pour du HD.
> Pour ce qui est de la solidité de l’espace dédié, j’entends par là la
> résistance aux pannes des disques. Cela signifie au moins un RAID1 (2
> disques miroir) ou mieux un RAID5 (continuité si un disque crame) ou 6
> (résistance à 2 disques cramés) (4 ou 5 disques). Comme ça, si un disque
> tombe en panne on à le temps d’en acheter un et de le remplacer à chaud. Du
> coup il vaut mieux éviter les SSD car achetés ensemble ils tomberons …
> ensemble (expérience).
>
> Quitte à opter pour du RAID, je me pencherais sur les solutions NAS
> (Synology ou QNap par exemple) qui ont l’avantage d’offrir ce service avec
> le même OS quelque soit la taille du NAS.
>
> Personnellement j’utilise un petit Synology (DS918+) 4 disques HDD
> formatés en Hybrid RAID (SHR) qui est entre le RAID 5 et 6. J’ai ajouté 2
> petits SSD en RAID1 qui servent de cache IO pour accélérer les échanges.
> Mais ils doivent avoir d’autres modèles maintenant.
>
> Un autre solution est de louer de l’espace de sauvegarde chez un
> fournisseur comme OVH ou IONOS. Ils se chargent de la sécurisation mais
> c’est un coût de location…
>
> Le 18 juin 2024 à 12:33, MERLIN Philippe  a
> écrit :
>
> Bonjour,
> J'aimerai avoir l'avis de la liste sur le choix du support de sauvegarde
> pour
> un petit ordinateur personnel.
> Mon besoin un disque d'un 1 To disque mécanique ou SSD ?
> Avantage Disque Mécanique Prix moins cher quoi que les prix des SSD ont
> baissé
> et se rapproche des disques Mécaniques.
> Dans les disques Mécanique  je connais  Seagate, Toshiba  y a t'il des
> Marques à éviter absolument ?
> Avantage SSD trés léger et peu encombrant ,rapidité de transfert mais pour
> une
> sauvegarde je ne vois pas l'intérêt.
> Vous avez certainement votre opinion basée sur l'expérience.
> Que me conseillez vous?
> Philippe Merlin
>
>
>
> --
> Pierre Malard
> Responsable architectures système CDS DINAMIS/THEIA Montpellier
> IRD - UMR Espace-Dev - UAR CPST - IR Data-Terra
> Maison de la Télédétection
> 500 rue Jean-François Breton
> 34093 Montpellier Cx 5
> France
>
> Tél : +33 626 89 22 68
>
>«*Mittler zwischen hirn und händen muss das hirz sein *!»
>«*La médiation entre le cerveau et les mains doit être le cœur !*»
>  Fritz Lang - "Métropolis"
> - 1929
>|\  _,,,---,,_
>/,`.-'`'-.  ;-;;,_
>   |,4-  ) )-,_. ,\ (  `'-'
>  '---''(_/--'  `-'\_)   πr
>
> perl -e '$_=q#: 3|\ 5_,3-3,2_: 3/,`.'"'"'`'"'"' 5-.  ;-;;,_:  |,A-  )
> )-,_. ,\ (  `'"'"'-'"'"': '"'"'-3'"'"'2(_/--'"'"'  `-'"'"'\_):
> 24πr::#;y#:#\n#;s#(\D)(\d+)#$1x$2#ge;print'
> - --> Ce message n’engage que son auteur <--
>
>

Re: Instant flush to file

[Michael Kjörling]

On 18 Jun 2024 21:17 +0800, from j...@tls-mail.com (Jeff Peng):
> I ask this b/c some commands following echo cannot run well.
> 
> Such as,
> 
> echo … >> dove.db
> doveadm create mailbox from dove.db
> 
> Sometimes it succeeds. Sometimes it fails.
> 
> If I add a line like this:
> 
> echo … >> dove.db
> sleep 1
> doveadm create mailbox from dove.db
> 
> It seems working now.

Your problem is almost certainly not related to writes not yet being
committed to stable storage.

Caching is used for both reads and writes. If a write syscall has
finished, then even if the data is still only in a cache, a subsequent
read syscall will return it.

You should be able to verify this by replacing your "doveadm"
invocation with, say, md5sum (or anything else which by necessity must
read the file in question). If the results or output of that is
consistent, then the data is being properly persisted and read back
(again, even if it hasn't been written out to stable storage yet
because of caching and write coalescing).

So whatever your problem is, you have either (a) stumbled upon a huge
bug in the kernel's I/O subsystem (unlikely), or (b) an unrelated
issue. It's hard to tell from simply a "sometimes it fails" what that
issue might be; maybe this "doveadm" program is doing some extra
validation of some kind, and a rapid execution fails this validation?

-- 
Michael Kjörling  https://michael.kjorling.se
“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”

Re: [HS] sauvegarde sur Disque Mécanique ou SSD

[Pierre Malard]

Bonjour,

Il y a 2 choses à regarder pour monter une solution de sauvegarde :
La durabilité des disques
La solidité de l’espace dédié

Il est certain que tout ce qui est SSD est + rapide mais ils ont la mauvaise 
habitude d’avoir une durée de vie très limitée en terme I/O (100.000 il me 
semble). Du coup j’opte pour du HD.
Pour ce qui est de la solidité de l’espace dédié, j’entends par là la 
résistance aux pannes des disques. Cela signifie au moins un RAID1 (2 disques 
miroir) ou mieux un RAID5 (continuité si un disque crame) ou 6 (résistance à 2 
disques cramés) (4 ou 5 disques). Comme ça, si un disque tombe en panne on à le 
temps d’en acheter un et de le remplacer à chaud. Du coup il vaut mieux éviter 
les SSD car achetés ensemble ils tomberons … ensemble (expérience).

Quitte à opter pour du RAID, je me pencherais sur les solutions NAS (Synology 
ou QNap par exemple) qui ont l’avantage d’offrir ce service avec le même OS 
quelque soit la taille du NAS.

Personnellement j’utilise un petit Synology (DS918+) 4 disques HDD formatés en 
Hybrid RAID (SHR) qui est entre le RAID 5 et 6. J’ai ajouté 2 petits SSD en 
RAID1 qui servent de cache IO pour accélérer les échanges. Mais ils doivent 
avoir d’autres modèles maintenant.

Un autre solution est de louer de l’espace de sauvegarde chez un fournisseur 
comme OVH ou IONOS. Ils se chargent de la sécurisation mais c’est un coût de 
location…

> Le 18 juin 2024 à 12:33, MERLIN Philippe  a 
> écrit :
> 
> Bonjour,
> J'aimerai avoir l'avis de la liste sur le choix du support de sauvegarde pour 
> un petit ordinateur personnel.
> Mon besoin un disque d'un 1 To disque mécanique ou SSD ?
> Avantage Disque Mécanique Prix moins cher quoi que les prix des SSD ont 
> baissé 
> et se rapproche des disques Mécaniques.
> Dans les disques Mécanique  je connais  Seagate, Toshiba  y a t'il des 
> Marques à éviter absolument ?
> Avantage SSD trés léger et peu encombrant ,rapidité de transfert mais pour 
> une 
> sauvegarde je ne vois pas l'intérêt.
> Vous avez certainement votre opinion basée sur l'expérience.
> Que me conseillez vous?
> Philippe Merlin
> 
> 

-- 
Pierre Malard
Responsable architectures système CDS DINAMIS/THEIA Montpellier
IRD - UMR Espace-Dev - UAR CPST - IR Data-Terra
Maison de la Télédétection
500 rue Jean-François Breton
34093 Montpellier Cx 5
France

Tél : +33 626 89 22 68

   «Mittler zwischen hirn und händen muss das hirz sein !»
   «La médiation entre le cerveau et les mains doit être le cœur !»
 Fritz Lang - "Métropolis" - 
1929
   |\  _,,,---,,_
   /,`.-'`'-.  ;-;;,_
  |,4-  ) )-,_. ,\ (  `'-'
 '---''(_/--'  `-'\_)   πr

perl -e '$_=q#: 3|\ 5_,3-3,2_: 3/,`.'"'"'`'"'"' 5-.  ;-;;,_:  |,A-  ) )-,_. ,\ 
(  `'"'"'-'"'"': '"'"'-3'"'"'2(_/--'"'"'  `-'"'"'\_): 
24πr::#;y#:#\n#;s#(\D)(\d+)#$1x$2#ge;print'
- --> Ce message n’engage que son auteur <--

Re: CD/DVD is obsolete or deprecate at 2025?

[George at Clug]

On Tuesday, 18-06-2024 at 09:44 Vitold S wrote:
> Good news everyone,
> 
> Sorry that the question may have already been clarified earlier, but
I am
> not a regular member of the user mailing list, so I ask it again.
> 
> Every time I download the Debian image, I am faced with a moral
disorder
> and philosophically go on a historical journey into the past, so
that I can
> remember and dive deeply into memory during the times of using CDs.
> 
> Today in my environment I can be faced with a CD only for scaring
away
> birds or as an intricate amulet on teenagers’ backpacks as a
reference to
> the era of their parents, but not for recording images. Let's say,
is this
> my particular progressive experience, or do people still find the
discs to
> be as functional as ever?

If by CD you mean CD/DVD/BD then, I still have use for them in the
following ways...

> 
> More and more I see that people usually use USB flash drives
everyday and
> some large companies (like Microsoft) today provide an image with a
USB
> stick.

1) I use DVD ISO images to create a bootable USB flash drive. Super
easy to do. I do not know how to do this with BD images, so if you do,
please let me know.
# ls -hal /dev/sd*
# cp CentOS-7-x86_64-Everything-2009.iso /dev/sdf

2) While small, I do have a collection of movie CDs, SVCDs, DVDs and
BDs that I can watch. Though to be realistic, I would prefer to have
these as files on the computer.

3) I have a several older computers which have CD/DVD drives by which
I can install from.  However, once again, if find booting from a USB
is usually much easier.

4) I also create Virtual Machines on a regular basis, and use DVD ISO
images to do so. For this I prefer the ease of use of an ISO image.

5) There are some versions of Debian that I keep an entire DVD set of
ISO images, so even when Mirrors are not available, or no longer
supported, I can still build a complete system. 



> 
> Is there a chance to change in next versions i.e. Debain 13 or other
> versions an assembly specifically for a USB flash drive as primary
> download? Do you think the time has come? When do you think this
moment
 > will happen?


While I would prefer not to see CD/DVD/BDs become extinct, it seems to
be inevitable that one day they will. Please do not hasten their
demise.



> 
> Again, forgive me if I don’t know some of the important details
and
> difficulties of booting modern PCs via UEFI or some other feature
more
> conveniently solved in the CD/DVD format. Then just tell me about
it, I'll
> read it.
> 
> Thanks.
>

Re: Instant flush to file

[Greg Wooledge]

On Tue, Jun 18, 2024 at 21:17:07 +0800, Jeff Peng wrote:
> After write to file with bash shell like:
> 
> echo … > file
> echo … >> file
> 
> Is it possible the file get no update instantly?

No.  Each of those commands opens the file (the first one opens it for
write, the second opens it for append), writes data, and then closes
the file.

If you really have both of those commands in your script, then you are
in fact opening and closing the file twice, which is not the most
efficient way to go.

But your speculation ("maybe there is a delay before the data actually
gets written by the kernel") is groundless.

> echo … >> dove.db
> doveadm create mailbox from dove.db
> 
> Sometimes it succeeds. Sometimes it fails.
> 
> If I add a line like this:
> 
> echo … >> dove.db
> sleep 1
> doveadm create mailbox from dove.db
> 
> It seems working now.

If the "dove.db" file is on a local file system, then your problem is
coming from something else.  Maybe there's a previous "doveadm"
command that starts something up, and that "something" isn't fully
up and running by the time your second doveadm command is executed?

If any network layers are involved, then *maybe* there's something in
one of those layers that could cause the file to be seen in a partially
written state, but even that would be highly speculative.

Re: CD/DVD is obsolete or deprecate at 2025?

[Stefan Monnier]

> And some of the BIOSes of old PCs are not able to boot from USB...

Indeed, tho I suspect those machines are 20 years old or more (at least,
all my machines that are <20 years old support booting from a USB key
drive, while of the two older machines I have (both 21 years old), one
of them doesn't support booting from a USB key (tho it supposedly can
boot from USB floppy)).


Stefan

Re: CD/DVD is obsolete or deprecate at 2025?

[Stefan Monnier]

>>> Is there a chance to change in next versions i.e. Debain 13 or other
>>> versions an assembly specifically for a USB flash drive as primary
>>> download?  Do you think the time has come? When do you think this moment
>>> will happen?
>> AFAIK, all the so-called CD/DVD images work just fine when "burned" on
>> a USB flash drive.  So I think the question is whether it's time to
>> change the doc to stop suggesting that those images should be burned
>> onto optical media.
> Just a question : why should we ditch the cd or dvd just because some guys
> said that's it was obsolete or inferior to the usb keys et al ?

AFAICT nobody in this thread suggested to ditch CD or DVD.
Can we stick to the actual discussion, please?


Stefan

Instant flush to file

[Jeff Peng]

Hi

After write to file with bash shell like:

echo … > file
echo … >> file

Is it possible the file get no update instantly?

I ask this b/c some commands following echo cannot run well.

Such as,

echo … >> dove.db
doveadm create mailbox from dove.db

Sometimes it succeeds. Sometimes it fails.

If I add a line like this:

echo … >> dove.db
sleep 1
doveadm create mailbox from dove.db

It seems working now.

Thanks.

Re: CD/DVD is obsolete or deprecate at 2025?

[Detlef Vollmann]

On 6/18/24 04:10, jeremy ardley wrote:


On 18/6/24 09:00, Stefan Monnier wrote:

Is there a chance to change in next versions i.e. Debain 13 or other
versions an assembly specifically for a USB flash drive as primary
download?  Do you think the time has come? When do you think this moment
will happen?

AFAIK, all the so-called CD/DVD images work just fine when "burned" on
a USB flash drive.  So I think the question is whether it's time to
change the doc to stop suggesting that those images should be burned
onto optical media.


 Stefan



The ISO images will be around for a long time. They are the primary 
mechanism of creating virtual machines by attaching virtual drives to a 
.iso file and booting.


And some of the BIOSes of old PCs are not able to boot from USB...

  Detlef

Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[Greg Wooledge]

On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 23:54:03 -0500, David Wright wrote:
> What should I call the timezone of my computer when it's booted up and
> no users are logged in?

Daemons will almost always use the system's default time zone (the one
specified by /etc/localtime or /etc/timezone).

It's *theoretically* possible for some daemons to be configured to use
a different time zone, or to be hard-coded to use UTC.  I've never seen
this, but it could be done.

Usually a daemon's time zone will only affect log messages that it
writes.  It's uncommon for a daemon process to use a time zone for
anything other than timestamping messages.  Of course, it depends on
the individual daemon.

Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[Greg Wooledge]

On Tue, Jun 18, 2024 at 18:26:39 +1000, Keith Bainbridge wrote:
> I'm back. The kitchen clock says 18:05. the sun has set. I have no reason to
> doubt the clock. So I'll answer Greg's questions
> 
> > What does "date" say?  Paste the entire output.
> $>   date
> Tue 18 Jun 2024 18:06:31 AEST
> 
> > 
> > What does "cat /etc/timezone" say?  Paste the entire output.
> 
> cat /etc/timezone
> Australia/Melbourne
> 
> is as close as I can specify for my regional city
> > 
> > What does "ls -l /etc/localtime" say?  Paste the entire output.
> ls -l /etc/localtime
> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 39 Mar  4 21:00 /etc/localtime ->
> /usr/share/zoneinfo/Australia/Melbourne
> 
> > Have you set the TZ environment variable?  If so, what did you set it to?
> Not that I'm aware of
> > What time zone are you *actually* in?  Like, what country, and what major
> > city is nearest to you?
> 
> UTC +10:00
> 
> Australia, Geelong Our capital is Melbourne

So, everything looks fine here.

> Greg, if there is something not right with my answer, please let me know.
> Again thanks greatly for your help.

In a previous message, you thought that your system clock or your time
zone was set wrong, because you read one of the attribution lines of
one of my replies, and you thought it said you had sent your message
at the wrong time.

As it turns out, I'm fairly certain you misread the attribution line,
which was reporting time in a 12-hour format, with "PM".  You saw the
06:... and thought it was saying you had sent your email at 6 AM, but
you missed the "PM" at the end.

As far as I know, it was a simple misread on your part, and nothing is
actually wrong.

In fact, things should be even better now, because you provoked me into
reading about mutt's attribution and date_format variables, and changing
the silly default format to a more sensible format.  You'll note that
this reply uses an attribution with a 24-hour format.

Re: [HS] sauvegarde sur Disque Mécanique ou SSD

[Basile Starynkevitch]

On 6/18/24 12:33, MERLIN Philippe wrote:

Bonjour,
J'aimerai avoir l'avis de la liste sur le choix du support de sauvegarde pour
un petit ordinateur personnel.
Mon besoin un disque d'un 1 To disque mécanique ou SSD ?


Si l'ordinateur est utilisé professionnellement, alors l'employeur ou le 
client devrait financer la sauvegarde, et peut-être proposer une 
procédure de sauvegarde à distance.


Il existe des fournisseurs de sauvegardes distantes incrémentales (et on 
peut alors utiliser rsync ). En France il y a ovhcloud.com 


Je suppose donc l'usage réellement personnel.

La première question (importante) à se poser est le coût et la valeur de 
ces données. Quel est l'impact sur votre quotidien de la perte de toutes 
ces données d'un coup? Perte d'emploi, perte d'une année de travail, 
contrariété?


Un téra-octet de données personnelles, c'est énorme. Il me semble que la 
seule activité numérique qui en consomme autant c'est la vidéo.


(mes données personnelles majeures sont sur un serveur OVH et n'occupent 
que quelques dizaines de gigaoctets)


Peut-être qu'il vous faudrait classer vos données par importance: perdre 
des vidéos de vacances est contrariant, mais moins que de perdre des 
données de santé, ou son emploi!


Et probablement envisager plusieurs sauvegardes sur plusieurs supports.


Avantage Disque Mécanique Prix moins cher quoi que les prix des SSD ont baissé
et se rapproche des disques Mécaniques.
Dans les disques Mécanique  je connais  Seagate, Toshiba  y a t'il des
Marques à éviter absolument ?
Avantage SSD trés léger et peu encombrant ,rapidité de transfert mais pour une
sauvegarde je ne vois pas l'intérêt.


C'est rapide, c'est silencieux. Un SSD supporte un petit choc mécanique. 
Mais il parait que les SSD s'usent plus vite que les disques mécaniques 
et que s'ils tombent en panne toutes les données sont perdues.


Le disque dur mécanique est parfois fiable; il est plus lourd et craint 
les chocs mécaniques. S'il tombe en panne des sociétés spécialisées 
facture quelques k€ la récupération partielle des données.



Vous avez certainement votre opinion basée sur l'expérience.
Que me conseillez vous?



D'abord et avant tout de réfléchir à la valeur (économique ou affective) 
de vos données, de les classer par importance, et de privilégier la 
sauvegarde (peut-être à distance) partielle et au moins hebdomadaire des 
données les plus chères. Sous Debian les logiciels crontab et rsync sont 
pertinents


Ensuite d'avoir plusieurs sauvegardes donc plusieurs supports. 
Transportez le support ailleurs. N'ignorez pas la confidentialité (et la 
legislation, en France article 323 et suivants du code pénal).



Philippe Merlin



Librement

NB je cherche un consortium ITEA, ANR, HorizonEurope intéressé par le 
logiciel libre en https://github.com/RefPerSys/RefPerSys/


--
Basile Starynkevitch 
(only mine opinions / les opinions sont miennes uniquement)
8 rue de la Faïencerie, 92340 Bourg-la-Reine, France
web page: starynkevitch.net/Basile/ -gives my mobile number +33 6 8501 
See/voir:   https://github.com/RefPerSys/RefPerSys

Re: overthewire.org: safe to use?

[Tom Browder]

On Sun, Jun 16, 2024 at 20:08 john doe  wrote:

> On 6/16/24 19:27, Tom Browder wrote:
> > Anyone here have any cautionary advice about using the ssh to war games
> on
> > their site?
>
…

According to [2], nothing needs to be installed.
>

Ah, I just noticed the port was specified.

Thanks, John Doe! All is well.

-Tom

Re: [HS] sauvegarde sur Disque Mécanique ou SSD

[Dethegeek]

Bonjour, pour un besoin de sauvegarde un support lent est tout à fait
acceptable. Je partirais sur du HDD pour des raisons de coût.

Je compare entre produits neufs. Pas de 2nde main.

Aujourd'hui j'éviterais western digital au profit de Hitachi ou sansumg.

J'ai un HDD 2.5p de 1 to Samsung qui doit approcher de 15 ans. Aucun souci
encore. Hitachi était très bon après la prise de la gamme IBM.

Les western digital de ce dernières années (gamme green ou blue ou même
red) ont des secteurs défectueux après quelques années

Le mar. 18 juin 2024 à 12:34, MERLIN Philippe 
a écrit :

> Bonjour,
> J'aimerai avoir l'avis de la liste sur le choix du support de sauvegarde
> pour
> un petit ordinateur personnel.
> Mon besoin un disque d'un 1 To disque mécanique ou SSD ?
> Avantage Disque Mécanique Prix moins cher quoi que les prix des SSD ont
> baissé
> et se rapproche des disques Mécaniques.
> Dans les disques Mécanique  je connais  Seagate, Toshiba  y a t'il des
> Marques à éviter absolument ?
> Avantage SSD trés léger et peu encombrant ,rapidité de transfert mais pour
> une
> sauvegarde je ne vois pas l'intérêt.
> Vous avez certainement votre opinion basée sur l'expérience.
> Que me conseillez vous?
> Philippe Merlin
>
>
>

[HS] sauvegarde sur Disque Mécanique ou SSD

[MERLIN Philippe]

Bonjour,
J'aimerai avoir l'avis de la liste sur le choix du support de sauvegarde pour 
un petit ordinateur personnel.
Mon besoin un disque d'un 1 To disque mécanique ou SSD ?
Avantage Disque Mécanique Prix moins cher quoi que les prix des SSD ont baissé 
et se rapproche des disques Mécaniques.
Dans les disques Mécanique  je connais  Seagate, Toshiba  y a t'il des 
Marques à éviter absolument ?
Avantage SSD trés léger et peu encombrant ,rapidité de transfert mais pour une 
sauvegarde je ne vois pas l'intérêt.
Vous avez certainement votre opinion basée sur l'expérience.
Que me conseillez vous?
Philippe Merlin

Re: CD/DVD is obsolete or deprecate at 2025?

[Marco Moock]

Am 18.06.2024 um 10:51:38 Uhr schrieb Joe:

> No, no problems booting UEFI from USB stick. I need to do that to get
> back to grub every time I boot Windows on my netbook, which isn't very
> often.

You should be able to change the boot order in the UEFI setup or inside
of Windows.

-- 
Gruß
Marco

Send unsolicited bulk mail to 1718700698mu...@cartoonies.org

Re: Ter info: FileZilla

[Sjoerd]

Op 11 mei schreef Richard Lucassen:
> Op 11 mei schreef Sjoerd:
> 
> > Wat je nu ziet gebeuren, is dat FileZilla eerst contact probeert te
> > maken via het IPv6-adres. Na ruim 2 minuten geeft-ie het op, en dan
> > wordt overgegaan naar het IPv4-adres, waarna de verbinding vlot tot
> > stand komt. Maar als je dan iets wilt uploaden, wordt opnieuw eerst
> > het IPv6-adres geprobeerd, en herhaalt deze toestand zich.
> 
> Zet voor de betreffende host alleen het ipv4 adres in de hosts file (die
> bestaat onder windows ook, dan forceer je de boel naar ipv4.

Afgelopen nacht was er weer een modem-update van KPN, maar hierna deed
IPv4 het ook al niet meer.
Een oplossing vond ik uiteindelijk op het KPN-forum.
In het modem is iets aan het beveiligingsniveau te wijzigen, waarna de
verbinding het weer doet.

"Na modem-update geen FTP meer"
https://forum.kpn.com/modems-123/na-modem-update-geen-ftp-meer-615273

[SUCESS with caution] Re: Corrupt MATE configuration due to OPERATOR ERROR

[Richard Owlett]

On 06/17/2024 09:33 AM, Mike Kupfer wrote:

Richard Owlett wrote:


I created a new, _apparently_ identical, panel.
*HOWEVER*
   it displays something for each item open/active in *ANY* workspace.

How do I get back to displaying something for each item open/active in
the *CURRENT* workspace?


This is the "window list" applet that you're describing.  Position your
mouse just to the left of the leftmost item in the applet, and
right-click.  You should get a menu that has items like "System Monitor"
and "Preferences".  Click on "Preferences".  That should bring up the
controls for the applet as a whole.  Somewhere in there will be a
control for whether to display windows from the current workspace versus
from all workspaces.

mike



Thank you. That's the needed solution.

The "caution" in my subject is for future readers of this thread.

I wish to emphasize the *just to the left* in the above.
If you go minimally too far to the left you get a menu related to 
modifying current panel or creating additional panels.


*Immediately* adjacent to the leftmost item are a faint grey set of
3 dots vertically aligned. You must right-click ON those dots.

Re: CD/DVD is obsolete or deprecate at 2025?

[Jean-François Bachelet]

Hello ^^)

Le 18/06/2024 à 03:00, Stefan Monnier a écrit :

Is there a chance to change in next versions i.e. Debain 13 or other
versions an assembly specifically for a USB flash drive as primary
download?  Do you think the time has come? When do you think this moment
will happen?


AFAIK, all the so-called CD/DVD images work just fine when "burned" on
a USB flash drive.  So I think the question is whether it's time to
change the doc to stop suggesting that those images should be burned
onto optical media.

Just a question : why should we ditch the cd or dvd just because some 
guys said that's it was obsolete or inferior to the usb keys et al ?


Memory keys (and ssd and downlodable audio and ...) all have still a 
major flaw in regard to hard stuff like CD dvd or real hard disks, and 
it's their 'volatility'.


these memory devices just dies on us with their contents (our valuable 
or paid for datas, way more often than a hard disk or cd dvd stuff.


and I don't think this will change soon, not where we are now in technology.

btw, the industry pushes forward a total abandon of hard copy of the 
stuff we buy with good money, only to ensure that we would buy it again 
if it was to disapear 'magically' and the buying contract says so in one 
form or another...
Remember the 'robbery' that has occured when buyers of electronic books 
found a day that some of their bought books had vanished from their 
readers devices 'cause the reseller contract had been broke by the 
publisher of the books with some merchants ?


That will be impossible with a real book, or cd, dvd, physical bought 
software. (well if your house doesn't catch a fire at least ;))


industry does not want you to own what you pay for in hard form. as well 
as banks are pushing to the abandon of physical money (notes or coins) 
to have even more control of your hard won money and have you dancing in 
their hands...


sorry if it's OT, but just think to all this by yourselves. ^^)

Fwd: test sent date details

[Keith Bainbridge]

All the best

Keith Bainbridge

keithr...@gmail.com
keith.bainbridge.3...@gmail.com
+61 (0)447 667 468

UTC + 10:00


 Forwarded Message 
Subject: test sent date details
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2024 17:56:41 +1000
From: Keith Bainbridge 
To: keithr...@gmail.com


All the best

Keith Bainbridge

keith.bainbridge.3...@gmail.com
+61 (0)447 667 468

UTC + 10:00

Re: test sent date details

[keithrbau]

It has worked

All the best

Keith Bainbridge

keithr...@gmail.com
keith.bainbridge.3...@gmail.com
+61 (0)447 667 468

UTC + 10:00

On 18/6/24 17:56, Keith Bainbridge wrote:


All the best

Keith Bainbridge

keith.bainbridge.3...@gmail.com
+61 (0)447 667 468

UTC + 10:00

Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[Keith Bainbridge]

On 17/6/24 21:22, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 06:26:19PM +1000, Keith Bainbridge wrote:

On 16/6/24 23:50, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Sun, Jun 16, 2024 at 06:13:36PM +1000, Keith Bainbridge wrote:

It was late afternoon on 16Jun2024 that I wrote this. Possibly 18:13:36 when
I pressed send. I'd reckon it would likely have been 08:13:36 UTC  What's
wrong with my system clock. I've not really looked at the time on my
originals before.  I'll try to remember to enter my local time as I press
send


I'm back. The kitchen clock says 18:05. the sun has set. I have no 
reason to doubt the clock. So I'll answer Greg's questions



What does "date" say?  Paste the entire output.

$>   date
Tue 18 Jun 2024 18:06:31 AEST



What does "cat /etc/timezone" say?  Paste the entire output.


cat /etc/timezone
Australia/Melbourne

is as close as I can specify for my regional city


What does "ls -l /etc/localtime" say?  Paste the entire output.

ls -l /etc/localtime
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 39 Mar  4 21:00 /etc/localtime -> 
/usr/share/zoneinfo/Australia/Melbourne



Have you set the TZ environment variable?  If so, what did you set it to?

Not that I'm aware of

What time zone are you *actually* in?  Like, what country, and what major
city is nearest to you?


UTC +10:00

Australia, Geelong Our capital is Melbourne


Which NTP client are you running?  Have you checked up on it, to make
sure it's actually running, properly configured, and not spewing errors?


No, but why, when I believe everything I have answered is correct.

If it helps, I have the date as part of my command prompt, always 
appears right time after an enter; aliases and desktop short-cuts that 
give me the date and time reliably so far.


Greg, if there is something not right with my answer, please let me know.
Again thanks greatly for your help.


I saw another response about how the MUA deals with the senders date 
when replying. So fired up claws and sent myself a brief note. when 
replying to myself, the reply quoted



On 18/6/24 17:56, Keith Bainbridge wrote:

When forwarding that same note, the forward quoted



 Forwarded Message 
Subject: test sent date details
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2024 17:56:41 +1000
From: Keith Bainbridge 
To: keithr...@gmail.com

I'll forward this asap, to confirm the detail. Guess I could also alter 
address in a reply to send it here as well. Look for it shortly as well.


This makes me think that I need to adjust my MUA settings; thunderbird 
for this mail and my normal mail use; and claws for some use. claws has 
reply and forwarding templates with place holders for date formats 
amongst other items. I'll play around there as it's easier to start 
with. Item 1 will be change the date to read as it does in the forward 
Tue 18Jun2024.



Thanks all for your responses. I'll go through them all later tonight








--
All the best

Keith Bainbridge

keithr...@gmail.com
keith.bainbridge.3...@gmail.com
+61 (0)447 667 468

UTC + 10:00

Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Tue, Jun 18, 2024 at 4:05 AM  wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 11:54:03PM -0500, David Wright wrote:
> > [...]
> >   $ date; timedatectl status
> >   Mon Jun 17 23:51:43 CDT 2024
> >  Local time: Tue 2024-06-18 04:51:43 UTC
> >  Universal time: Tue 2024-06-18 04:51:43 UTC
> >RTC time: Tue 2024-06-18 04:51:43
> >   Time zone: Etc/UTC (UTC, +)
> >   System clock synchronized: yes
> > NTP service: active
> > RTC in local TZ: no
> >   $
> >
> > I notice that   man timedatectl   says:
> >
> >set-timezone [TIMEZONE]
> >Set the system time zone to the specified value.
> >Available timezones can be listed with list-timezones.
> >If the RTC is configured to be in the local time, this
> >will also update the RTC time. This call will alter
> >the /etc/localtime symlink. See localtime(5) for more
> >information.
>
> I cringe a bit when I see that.

Yeah.. on Linux, it is recommended to keep the RTC clock in UTC.
Unless Windows has contaminated the machine. See
.

Jeff

Re: System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[tomas]

On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 11:54:03PM -0500, David Wright wrote:
> On Mon 17 Jun 2024 at 19:40:30 (+0200), to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 01:20:53PM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:

[...]

> > > Time zones are not in effect for users, either; they're in effect for
> > > processes [...]
> > 
> > Right you are.
> 
> So it comes down to nomenclature.
> 
> What should I call the timezone of my computer when it's booted up and
> no users are logged in?

[...]

Most processes don't need one. When they display datetimes to a user
timezone becomes relevant.


>   $ date; timedatectl status
>   Mon Jun 17 23:51:43 CDT 2024
>  Local time: Tue 2024-06-18 04:51:43 UTC
>  Universal time: Tue 2024-06-18 04:51:43 UTC
>RTC time: Tue 2024-06-18 04:51:43
>   Time zone: Etc/UTC (UTC, +)
>   System clock synchronized: yes
> NTP service: active
> RTC in local TZ: no
>   $ 
> 
> I notice that   man timedatectl   says:
> 
>set-timezone [TIMEZONE]
>Set the system time zone to the specified value.
>Available timezones can be listed with list-timezones.
>If the RTC is configured to be in the local time, this
>will also update the RTC time. This call will alter
>the /etc/localtime symlink. See localtime(5) for more
>information.

I cringe a bit when I see that.

Cheers
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: CD/DVD is obsolete or deprecate at 2025?

[Klaus Singvogel]

Marco Moock wrote:
> Most new computers don't have an optical disc drive, customers don't
> request it and if they want one, they can buy one and add it.

I've an optical disc drive with USB connection. I can easily move it to my new 
/ next computer, when I upgrade, and don't need a place in the computer.

I'm still using DVDs to generate bootable Debian discs and install with them my 
next computer, or use it for the rescue system (rarely).

Best regards,
Klaus.
-- 
Klaus Singvogel
GnuPG-Key-ID: 1024R/5068792D  1994-06-27

Re: CD/DVD is obsolete or deprecate at 2025?

[Marco Moock]

Am 18.06.2024 um 02:44:46 Uhr schrieb Vitold S:

> More and more I see that people usually use USB flash drives everyday
> and some large companies (like Microsoft) today provide an image with
> a USB stick.

Most new computers don't have an optical disc drive, customers don't
request it and if they want one, they can buy one and add it.
USB is available every time, thumb disks with 16 GB are available at
the supermarket and can be used for many purposes.

> Is there a chance to change in next versions i.e. Debain 13 or other
> versions an assembly specifically for a USB flash drive as primary
> download? Do you think the time has come? When do you think this
> moment will happen?

The images provided are hybrid, they can be used on CD/DVD (if the
image is small enough, e.g. netinstall) or USB thumb disks.
Just write it there using dd.

-- 
Gruß
Marco

Send unsolicited bulk mail to 1718671486mu...@cartoonies.org

Re: CD/DVD is obsolete or deprecate at 2025?

[Stefan Monnier]

> No! Some of us want to keep using DVD and not be pushed away

In which sense would it push you away.

I'm not suggesting any change to the ISO files themselves.
Only changes to the doc to clarify that these are images that are
expected to be used on USB flash dirves (and they also work on CD/DVD,
including virtual ones for VMs).

The intention is to avoid confusing those users who intuitively skip the
parts talking about CD/DVD images because they don't have a CD/DVD
reader/writer (or don't want to use it).


Stefan

System time/timezone, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[David Wright]

On Mon 17 Jun 2024 at 19:40:30 (+0200), to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 01:20:53PM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 18:22:29 +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > > On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 09:14:38AM -0500, David Wright wrote:
> > > 
> > > > You asked after your /system/ clock. [ … ]
> > > > [ … ] /etc/timezone says what the system is on;
> > > > $ date   says what your user is on.
> > > 
> > > No: /etc/timezone just says what time zone a _user_ will "get" unless
> > > they state otherwise. I.e. a user's default time zone.
> > > 
> > > The "system" being "on" a timezone is something that, under Unix,
> > > doesn't make sense.
> > 
> > Time zones are not in effect for users, either; they're in effect for
> > processes [...]
> 
> Right you are.

So it comes down to nomenclature.

What should I call the timezone of my computer when it's booted up and
no users are logged in?

It's fine to say that the linux kernel is counting seconds since the
epoch, and doesn't have need of a timezone (ignoring UTC and TAI for
the moment), but there are many processes already running as root, and
they have timezones (hopefully one and the same).

You seem to be telling me that "system timezone" isn't the correct
collective noun for all these processes' timezone.

Saying it's the contents of /etc/timezone is now a legacy concept,
but at least it's less cumbersome than saying it's the name of the
file in /usr/share/zoneinfo/ that's the target of /etc/localtime.
It's fine for systemd to call it "Local time" in the context below,
but it's certainly /not/ the local timezone in KS, where it's nearly
midnight.

  $ date; timedatectl status
  Mon Jun 17 23:51:43 CDT 2024
 Local time: Tue 2024-06-18 04:51:43 UTC
 Universal time: Tue 2024-06-18 04:51:43 UTC
   RTC time: Tue 2024-06-18 04:51:43
  Time zone: Etc/UTC (UTC, +)
  System clock synchronized: yes
NTP service: active
RTC in local TZ: no
  $ 

I notice that   man timedatectl   says:

   set-timezone [TIMEZONE]
   Set the system time zone to the specified value.
   Available timezones can be listed with list-timezones.
   If the RTC is configured to be in the local time, this
   will also update the RTC time. This call will alter
   the /etc/localtime symlink. See localtime(5) for more
   information.

Cheers,
David.

Re: CD/DVD is obsolete or deprecate at 2025?

[Thomas Dineen]

No! Some of us want to keep using DVD and not be pushed away


On 6/17/2024 6:00 PM, Stefan Monnier wrote:

Is there a chance to change in next versions i.e. Debain 13 or other
versions an assembly specifically for a USB flash drive as primary
download?  Do you think the time has come? When do you think this moment
will happen?

AFAIK, all the so-called CD/DVD images work just fine when "burned" on
a USB flash drive.  So I think the question is whether it's time to
change the doc to stop suggesting that those images should be burned
onto optical media.


 Stefan

Re: CD/DVD is obsolete or deprecate at 2025?

[jeremy ardley]

On 18/6/24 09:00, Stefan Monnier wrote:

Is there a chance to change in next versions i.e. Debain 13 or other
versions an assembly specifically for a USB flash drive as primary
download?  Do you think the time has come? When do you think this moment
will happen?

AFAIK, all the so-called CD/DVD images work just fine when "burned" on
a USB flash drive.  So I think the question is whether it's time to
change the doc to stop suggesting that those images should be burned
onto optical media.


 Stefan



The ISO images will be around for a long time. They are the primary 
mechanism of creating virtual machines by attaching virtual drives to a 
.iso file and booting.


I noticed that recent windows natively supports .iso format as a form of 
archive.

Re: CD/DVD is obsolete or deprecate at 2025?

[Stefan Monnier]

> Is there a chance to change in next versions i.e. Debain 13 or other
> versions an assembly specifically for a USB flash drive as primary
> download?  Do you think the time has come? When do you think this moment
> will happen?

AFAIK, all the so-called CD/DVD images work just fine when "burned" on
a USB flash drive.  So I think the question is whether it's time to
change the doc to stop suggesting that those images should be burned
onto optical media.


Stefan

Re: Modifying Desktop Icons

[Gareth Evans]

> On 17 Jun 2024, at 20:45, Pranjal Singh  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I am trying to modify the Firefox desktop icon so that it opens
> an incognito window by default.
> 
> ...
> 
> - Exec=firefox %u
> + Exec=firefox -private-window %u
> 

Assuming that's not a typo, please try:

--private-window

(NB two hyphens at the beginning)

This works for me on Mate.

Re: CD/DVD is obsolete or deprecate at 2025?

[Dan Ritter]

Vitold S wrote: 
> Is there a chance to change in next versions i.e. Debain 13 or other
> versions an assembly specifically for a USB flash drive as primary
> download? Do you think the time has come? When do you think this moment
> will happen?

Several years ago.

https://www.debian.org/distrib/netinst

says:

---

You can download a couple of image files of small size, suitable for USB Sticks 
and similar devices, write them to the media, and then start the installation 
by booting from that.

There is some diversity in the support for installing from various very small 
images between the architectures.

For details, please refer to the installation manual for your architecture, 
especially the chapter "Obtaining System Installation Media".

Here are the links to the available image files (look at the MANIFEST file for 
information):

amd64 arm64 armhf i386 mips64el ppc64el s390x

Re: CD/DVD is obsolete or deprecate at 2025?

[eben]

On 6/17/24 19:44, Vitold S wrote:

Today in my environment I can be faced with a CD only for scaring away
birds or as an intricate amulet on teenagers’ backpacks as a reference to
the era of their parents, but not for recording images. Let's say, is this
my particular progressive experience, or do people still find the discs to
be as functional as ever?


I have two DVD/CD drives (one reads BD as well) because I often get movies
from the library on DVD, copy them to iso, then parse and transcode to
several mkvs.  Yes, this probably makes me a weird.  But hey, it suits my
needs.  I haven't needed them for another use in ages, however.

--
Since methane is eight times more effective as a greenhouse gas than
carbon dioxide, it is ecologically irresponsible for you to not light
your farts. -- TW in AFCA 12/2012

CD/DVD is obsolete or deprecate at 2025?

[Vitold S]

Good news everyone,

Sorry that the question may have already been clarified earlier, but I am
not a regular member of the user mailing list, so I ask it again.

Every time I download the Debian image, I am faced with a moral disorder
and philosophically go on a historical journey into the past, so that I can
remember and dive deeply into memory during the times of using CDs.

Today in my environment I can be faced with a CD only for scaring away
birds or as an intricate amulet on teenagers’ backpacks as a reference to
the era of their parents, but not for recording images. Let's say, is this
my particular progressive experience, or do people still find the discs to
be as functional as ever?

More and more I see that people usually use USB flash drives everyday and
some large companies (like Microsoft) today provide an image with a USB
stick.

Is there a chance to change in next versions i.e. Debain 13 or other
versions an assembly specifically for a USB flash drive as primary
download? Do you think the time has come? When do you think this moment
will happen?

Again, forgive me if I don’t know some of the important details and
difficulties of booting modern PCs via UEFI or some other feature more
conveniently solved in the CD/DVD format. Then just tell me about it, I'll
read it.

Thanks.

Re: Access and Back-up a Root locked laptop

[Michael Kjörling]

On 17 Jun 2024 13:33 -0600, from avelinoheribe...@gmail.com (HERIBERTO AVELINO):
> My root account is locked. I experienced the well known issue "Debian
> authentication failure" at the log-in stage, i.e. it would not accept the
> root password.

I haven't heard of any specific issue like that, but the file system
being nearly full should not prevent root from logging in on a typical
system. For example ext2/3/4 has a _specific_ margin of storage space
reserved for root (which can be displayed using tune2fs -l and set
using tune2fs -m; historically it has defaulted to 5%).

That said, if files can't be written because the file system is out of
space, _some_ things probably will break, and your desktop environment
might not particularly like that. But you absolutely should be able to
get to a shell.

> I shall not attempt a fresh partitioning as many files are not backed up.

I really recommend that you start making regular backups, but that's
unrelated to this particular issue. User error like overwriting or
deleting the wrong file, software bugs corrupting files, and storage
device malfunctions are just some examples of when a backup can be
very useful; and particularly a laptop can be physically lost or
damaged in ways most desktop systems typically aren't at great risk
of. (Which is not to say that backups aren't beneficial also with
desktop systems; they absolutely are.) But I digress.

> So, I would like to ask:
> - Can I access the system to back up my working files?
> - How can I back up the files to an external device?

Yes. If you're comfortable with the command line, then most
straightforward way is probably to switch to a non-X virtual terminal
(try each of Ctrl+Alt+F[1..8] until you get to a text-based login
prompt; note that a laptop may require you to also hold a Fn or
similar key to actually get F-key semantics), log in as root there
using your normal root password; and start looking around with cd, ls,
du and df. `ls -lhrS` will probably be helpful (that's long format
list, human-readable file sizes, sort with largest files at the
bottom); also `du -bsmx */` (the slash is important) will tell you the
size of what's in each subdirectory of the current directory. If there
are many, try something like `du -bsmx */ | sort -k1 -nr | head -n10`
to get a list of the largest subdirectories of the current directory.
Note that this may take a while to complete; be patient.

You can plug in external storage such as a USB stick, use lsblk to
determine its device node path, and mount it somewhere convenient
using something like `mount /dev/sdx /mnt`. You can then use mv to
move files to it (or cp to copy). Remember to `umount /mnt` and wait
for the command prompt _before unplugging it!_

Or if you find large files that you don't need, you can use rm to
delete them. Of course be careful to only do this with things you
_know_ that you don't need.

Another good place to start to free up space is `apt-get autoclean`,
which will delete old package files from apt's local cache (it can get
quite large over time if not cleaned).

If you can free up a few tens of megabytes, then I suggest installing
Midnight Commander. (`apt-get install mc`) Launch it by typing mc at
the command prompt. It will make looking around the file system much
smoother. Help is available within it by pressing F1, and you can
access the drop-down menus by pressing F9. If the F keys don't work,
then F1..F10 maps to Esc followed by plain digits 1 through 0.

Once you free up maybe a few hundred megabytes to a gigabyte or so,
assuming that the problem in the first place was lack of space, you
should definitely be able to log in to a graphical session and
continue there.

-- 
Michael Kjörling  https://michael.kjorling.se
“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”

Re: Bookworm: IBM DSD3300 iSCSI connection problem [solved]

[Greg]

On 6/17/24 11:04, Timothy M Butterworth wrote:



On Sun, Jun 16, 2024 at 3:41 PM Greg > wrote:


Hi there,

I'm trying to mount iscsi share exported from old IBM DS3300.
Unfortunately I get the following error:

ping timeout of 5 secs expired, recv timeout 5, last rx
4405941922, last
ping 4405943173, now 440598


DS3300 is in "Optimal" state.

Thanks in advance for any help

More info from dmesg:

[444198.925420] scsi 10:0:0:31: Attached scsi generic sg7 type 0
[444209.025722]  connection12:0: ping timeout of 5 secs expired, recv
timeout 5, last rx
4405941922, last
ping 4405943173,
now 440598
[444209.025765]  connection12:0: detected conn error (1022)
[444211.083687] sd 10:0:0:0: Power-on or device reset occurred
[444221.313734]  connection12:0: ping timeout of 5 secs expired, recv
timeout 5, last rx 4405944962, last ping 4405946240, now 4405947520
[444221.313780]  connection12:0: detected conn error (1022)
[444223.373262] sd 10:0:0:0: Power-on or device reset occurred
[444233.601772]  connection12:0: ping timeout of 5 secs expired, recv
timeout 5, last rx 4405948034, last ping 4405949312, now 4405950592
[444233.601814]  connection12:0: detected conn error (1022)


According to these errors a ping test is failing. Can you ping and 
traceroute to the DS3300 from the client? It looks like you have a 
connectivity problem. If you recently setup a firewall then you need to 
open ICMP echo-request and echo-reply.


Thanks for the tip. The problem is definitely related to firewall.

Regards
Greg

Re: Access and Back-up a Root locked laptop

[Andy Smith]

Hi,

On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 01:33:12PM -0600, HERIBERTO AVELINO wrote:
> My root account is locked. I experienced the well known issue "Debian
> authentication failure" at the log-in stage, i.e. it would not accept the
> root password.

With physical access to the machine and without an encrypted
filesystem it's really quite trivial to regain access.

Example for Debian 10 but still applies for other versions:

https://www.tecmint.com/reset-forgotten-root-password-in-debian/

> So, I would like to ask:
> - Can I access the system to back up my working files?

Yes, you can boot the Debian installer in "rescue" mode and access
your files, or any other "Live" version of Linux to do same.

> - How can I back up the files to an external device?

You probably should try resetting your password(s) first as using
your normal system will be a lot more convenient. But if for some
reason you don't want to do that, pretty much any external storage
device should also show up under a "live" environment so the answer
is: boot one of those and plug the storage in (or do it over the
network to some storage).

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: Access and Back-up a Root locked laptop

[eben]

On 6/17/24 15:33, HERIBERTO AVELINO wrote:

Dear all
My root account is locked. I experienced the well known issue "Debian
authentication failure" at the log-in stage, i.e. it would not accept the
root password.
I accessed the BIOS to enter the safe mode, and discovered that my hard
drive is almost full.
I shall not attempt a fresh partitioning as many files are not backed up.
So, I would like to ask:
- Can I access the system to back up my working files?
- How can I back up the files to an external device?
Distributor ID: Debian
Description: Debian GNU/Linux 12 (bookworm)
Release: 12
Codename: bookworm
running on a Laptop hp ProBook 445

I would appreciate it if any kind soul could help me. I will buy you a cake!
Heriberto


Move enough files to another device that root can log in?  But, some point
in that process might require root permissions.  Maybe boot off a rescue
thumb drive (like the one from system-rescue.org), mount the relevant
partitions from your hard drive(s) and you can do whatever.


--
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political
 view or strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof
 is left as an exercise for your kill-file." -- Bertil Jonell

Re: Modifying Desktop Icons

[eben]

On 6/17/24 15:29, Pranjal Singh wrote:

Hi,

I am trying to modify the Firefox desktop icon so that it opens
an incognito window by default.


...


What I've done is changing /usr/share/applications/firefox.desktop:

- Exec=firefox %u
+ Exec=firefox -private-window %u

I also created a desktop file in ~/.local/share/applications, but
that too didn't work.


How didn't it work?  Did it run regular Firefox, or not run at all?

Modifying Desktop Icons

[Pranjal Singh]

Hi,

I am trying to modify the Firefox desktop icon so that it opens
an incognito window by default.

I've modified and created .desktop
files as per tutorials on the net and rebooted, but it doesn't work.

What I've done is changing /usr/share/applications/firefox.desktop:

- Exec=firefox %u
+ Exec=firefox -private-window %u

I also created a desktop file in ~/.local/share/applications, but
that too didn't work.

Can someone direct me to documentation or the actual implementation
of desktop icons?

Thanks,
Pranjal

Access and Back-up a Root locked laptop

[HERIBERTO AVELINO]

Dear all
My root account is locked. I experienced the well known issue "Debian
authentication failure" at the log-in stage, i.e. it would not accept the
root password.
I accessed the BIOS to enter the safe mode, and discovered that my hard
drive is almost full.
I shall not attempt a fresh partitioning as many files are not backed up.
So, I would like to ask:
- Can I access the system to back up my working files?
- How can I back up the files to an external device?
Distributor ID: Debian
Description: Debian GNU/Linux 12 (bookworm)
Release: 12
Codename: bookworm
running on a Laptop hp ProBook 445

I would appreciate it if any kind soul could help me. I will buy you a cake!
Heriberto

Re: can't connect to eduroam due to SSL3 unsupported protocol

[Dan Ritter]

Vincent Lefevre wrote: 
> On 2024-06-17 08:26:39 -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:
> > On stable:
> > $ openssl list -disabled
> > Disabled algorithms:
> > IDEA
> > MD2
> > MDC2
> > RC5
> > SCTP
> > SSL3
> > ZLIB
> > 
> > So, SSL3 support was removed at least that long ago. I think it
> > was actually dropped around 2016.
> 
> That's strange because when I installed the machine in October,
> there were no issues.

Perhaps the change is not in your system but in theirs?

-dsr-

Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[tomas]

On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 01:20:53PM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:

[...]

> > The "system" being "on" a timezone is something that, under Unix,
> > doesn't make sense.
> 
> Time zones are not in effect for users, either; they're in effect for
> processes [...]

Right you are.

Cheers
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Time, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[eben]

On 6/17/24 11:36, David Wright wrote:

On Mon 17 Jun 2024 at 10:23:46 (-0400), Greg Wooledge wrote:

I wonder if Keith's confusion is simply due to my MUA using "AM" and "PM"
in its attribution line, and Keith not seeing the "PM".  Maybe I should
look into configuring that differently.


Along with 350M Americans! They even use just A and P over here. And a
mere dot on digital clocks.


And I can never remember if the dot means AM or PM.  I suspect it changes
between implementations, or maybe I'm just very slow.

Worse(?), some clocks that don't deal with date or alarms (e.g. microwave,
car, some watches) are 12h only.

--
Given the correlation between insufficient nookie and the high rate of
unemployment among recent college graduates coupled with high college
debts, I propose to kill two birds* with one stone: A new government
program called "Ameriwhore".  -- Arty in AFC-A

Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[Greg Wooledge]

On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 18:22:29 +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 09:14:38AM -0500, David Wright wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > You asked after your /system/ clock. I don't think I can tell whether
> > it's set to UTC or Local Time, but only that it is correct, whichever
> > it it on. Likewise the hardware RTC. The third line of /etc/adjtime
> > says what the RTC is on; /etc/timezone says what the system is on;
> > $ date   says what your user is on.
> 
> No: /etc/timezone just says what time zone a _user_ will "get" unless
> they state otherwise. I.e. a user's default time zone.
> 
> The "system" being "on" a timezone is something that, under Unix,
> doesn't make sense.

Time zones are not in effect for users, either; they're in effect for
processes.  A given user's login session, which is a collection of
processes, would typically all be using the same time zone, for
consistency, but this isn't necessary.  They might choose to run two
clocks, one in their local time zone, and one in another time zone,
where a family member lives, or where they're about to take a vacation.

/etc/localtime points to the time zone that a process will use if it
doesn't specify one via the TZ environment variable.  And /etc/timezone
is the legacy version of /etc/localtime.

Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[tomas]

On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 09:14:38AM -0500, David Wright wrote:

[...]

> You asked after your /system/ clock. I don't think I can tell whether
> it's set to UTC or Local Time, but only that it is correct, whichever
> it it on. Likewise the hardware RTC. The third line of /etc/adjtime
> says what the RTC is on; /etc/timezone says what the system is on;
> $ date   says what your user is on.

No: /etc/timezone just says what time zone a _user_ will "get" unless
they state otherwise. I.e. a user's default time zone.

The "system" being "on" a timezone is something that, under Unix,
doesn't make sense.

Cheers
-- 
t 


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Description: PGP signature

Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[David Wright]

On Mon 17 Jun 2024 at 18:47:41 (+1000), Keith Bainbridge wrote:
> On 17/6/24 14:20, David Wright wrote:
> > On Sun 16 Jun 2024 at 18:13:36 (+1000), Keith Bainbridge wrote:
> > > 
> > > Some of my aliases stopped working after months of working as I
> > > expected. And udating the .bash_aliases kept giving me an error
> > > referring to an end of file before the matching ' in one of the last
> > > aliases.  So I did some searching.
> > 
> > All the aliases that lie textually after the one with the missing '
> > will remain undefined, so you can use bisection to locate where in
> > the file problem lies.
> 
> If I didn't use a syntax matching editor this may have easily been my
> problem.
> 
> This is the line that was being reported as the incomplete alias, and
> a few that follow it:

Once you open, and don't close, a quote, then bash is likely to try
to "bend" everything to suit, as it parses more lines. Frequently
it will only give up at the end of the file. So any reported line
number is likely to be meaningless.

That's why I recommended you source the file from a clean bash shell
and check which alias definitions have become defined, and which
haven't. Those that get "eaten up" in the runaway quote will not
get defined.

> > There's little chance of hitting bash's limits unless you're
> > generating the aliases or functions programmatically, and they'd
> > need naming systematically for you to be able to remember them all.
> > 
> As I said to Greg - I don't understand this; so I don't know how I
> would have done it.

I've seen no evidence of exceeding a limit of aliases or functions.

> > > So I re-did my .bash_aliases file with only the bits I NEED; and all
> > > is back to normal.
> > 
> > It looks like the error was in something that you judged you didn't need,
> > and you removed it.
> 
> No. The alias worked as soon as I activated it

You don't say which alias, nor all that had been done up to that
point, so that doesn't convey much information to me here. Or by
"activating the alias", do you mean sourcing the aliases file?

I was under the impression that you severely pruned your aliases
file from 17000 to 2500 characters, and that the larger file had an
unmatched ' and the smaller one didn't. It would seem reasonable
to suppose that the unmatched ' was in the prunings, the bits
you said you didn't need.

> > In any case, the bash limits you quoted were concerned with the number
> > of definitions, not the size of the files containing them.
> > 
> > Interesting that your aliases are on average as big as your functions.
> > About 90 of my aliases occupy 3.5k, whereas ~350 functions occupy 240k,
> > so averaging around 40 and 680 characters each, respectively.
> 
> To clarify the file sizes. The original 17K was about 150 aliases plus
> 4 functions. The new aliases file at 2.5k is about 40 aliases plus
> several comments and blank lines. The finctions file is new yesterday
> and has 2 functions (one of them 2 short commands).  I'll not likely
> get my functions much bigger - in the short term anyhow.

Really, I was only interested in the file sizes as an indication of
how long (and possibly complex) your aliases were.

> > I don't follow what this is about, particularly each line having (or
> > not having) a &&.
> 
> The only reason I raised this matter was that I had opened saying that
> my aliases were working. I originally thought that the function was my
> first sign of a problem  My ERROR. It became as aside to the question
> of env variable limits

Fair enough. But I still don't see anything reported that would cause
you to approach bash's limits except by, say, an accidental loop.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Time, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[Greg Wooledge]

On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 10:36:59 -0500, David Wright wrote:
> On Mon 17 Jun 2024 at 10:23:46 (-0400), Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > /etc/timezone is only used by some legacy programs.  All the current
> > ones should be using /etc/localtime instead, which is a symlink to a
> > binary zoneinfo file, rather than a text file containing a timezone name.
> 
> You're right of course, but confirming its value does involve using
> a command that's probably not at the front of one's mind.
> 
> BTW what's the relationship between "current programs" and TZ nowadays?

Do you mean the TZ variable?  That overrides the system default.

hobbit:~$ date; TZ=Europe/Paris date
Mon Jun 17 11:40:59 EDT 2024
Mon Jun 17 17:40:59 CEST 2024

If you're asking about programs that still use /etc/timzeone, I don't know
of any off hand.  I'd be interested in hearing about any that still do,
though probably less so than the Debian libc6 maintainers are.

Time, was Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[David Wright]

On Mon 17 Jun 2024 at 10:23:46 (-0400), Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 09:14:38AM -0500, David Wright wrote:
> > You asked after your /system/ clock. I don't think I can tell whether
> > it's set to UTC or Local Time, but only that it is correct, whichever
> > it it on. Likewise the hardware RTC. The third line of /etc/adjtime
> > says what the RTC is on; /etc/timezone says what the system is on;
> > $ date   says what your user is on.
> 
> /etc/timezone is only used by some legacy programs.  All the current
> ones should be using /etc/localtime instead, which is a symlink to a
> binary zoneinfo file, rather than a text file containing a timezone name.

You're right of course, but confirming its value does involve using
a command that's probably not at the front of one's mind.

BTW what's the relationship between "current programs" and TZ nowadays?

> I wonder if Keith's confusion is simply due to my MUA using "AM" and "PM"
> in its attribution line, and Keith not seeing the "PM".  Maybe I should
> look into configuring that differently.

Along with 350M Americans! They even use just A and P over here. And a
mere dot on digital clocks. (I see you've changed it already!)

Cheers,
David.

Re: can't connect to eduroam due to SSL3 unsupported protocol

[Nicolas George]

Richard (12024-06-17):
> There is a coordination, so you can use the same login data all over the
> world. At least that's how it's supposed to work. But afaik the protocols
> themselves aren't predefined. That's up to the local IT department how they
> implement this. Authentication should always be done locally, with
> synchronization between facilities. At least to my understanding, but I'm
> no eduroam professional.

That would require that all establishments download and keep in sync the
whole database of users of all other establishments. That is not
sustainable, and I am not even talking about the privacy concerns.

What happens is the local Radius for Eduroam forwards the authentication
request to the Radius from the origin institution.

For example, if the security officer of here.edu knows there was an
incident on a local Eduroam IP, they can know it was authenticated for
“anonym...@somewhere-else.edu”, and they need to ask to the security
officer of somewhere-else.edu to get further details.


> Am Mo., 17. Juni 2024 um 17:02 Uhr schrieb Vincent Lefevre <
> vinc...@vinc17.net>:

Please do not top-post.

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George

Re: can't connect to eduroam due to SSL3 unsupported protocol

[Richard]

There is a coordination, so you can use the same login data all over the
world. At least that's how it's supposed to work. But afaik the protocols
themselves aren't predefined. That's up to the local IT department how they
implement this. Authentication should always be done locally, with
synchronization between facilities. At least to my understanding, but I'm
no eduroam professional.

Richard

Am Mo., 17. Juni 2024 um 17:02 Uhr schrieb Vincent Lefevre <
vinc...@vinc17.net>:

> Isn't the authentication done by the remote side, thus will always
> require the same protocol for a given account?
>
> --
> Vincent Lefèvre  - Web: 
> 100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: 
> Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)
>
>

Re: can't connect to eduroam due to SSL3 unsupported protocol

[Vincent Lefevre]

On 2024-06-17 10:18:09 -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> > Under Debian/unstable, I can't connect to eduroam due to the following
> > reason:
> 
> AFAIK, while "the eduroam" looks like one thing it's just a bunch of
> local wifi networks, each one administered mostly independently
> and with different configurations.  By and large, if you can connect to
> eduroam at one place it's likely it'll also work elsewhere but it's not
> always the case.

Isn't the authentication done by the remote side, thus will always
require the same protocol for a given account?

-- 
Vincent Lefèvre  - Web: 
100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: 
Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)

Re: time display was: Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[Greg Wooledge]

On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 15:56:13 +0100, debian-u...@howorth.org.uk wrote:
> Keith Bainbridge  wrote:
> > On 16/6/24 23:50, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > > On Sun, Jun 16, 2024 at 06:13:36PM +1000, Keith Bainbridge wrote:  
> > 
> > It was late afternoon on 16Jun2024 that I wrote this. Possibly
> > 18:13:36 when I pressed send. I'd reckon it would likely have been
> > 08:13:36 UTC What's wrong with my system clock. I've not really
> > looked at the time on my originals before.  I'll try to remember to
> > enter my local time as I press send
> 
> I'm confused. Your time displays (Keith) look sensible to me, given
> they are in local time for somewhere like Brisbane.
> 
> The only confusing display to me is what Greg's MUA showed when quoting
> your message. The time is correct but is shown in 12-hr +offset format,
> which is a bit weird and is in contrast to the way his own message time
> is displayed in 24-hr format.

Mutt uses that 12-hour format by default.  I just changed it in my
configuration.  This message uses the 24-hour format instead.

time display was: Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[debian-user]

Keith Bainbridge  wrote:
> On 16/6/24 23:50, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > On Sun, Jun 16, 2024 at 06:13:36PM +1000, Keith Bainbridge wrote:  
> 
> It was late afternoon on 16Jun2024 that I wrote this. Possibly
> 18:13:36 when I pressed send. I'd reckon it would likely have been
> 08:13:36 UTC What's wrong with my system clock. I've not really
> looked at the time on my originals before.  I'll try to remember to
> enter my local time as I press send

I'm confused. Your time displays (Keith) look sensible to me, given
they are in local time for somewhere like Brisbane.

The only confusing display to me is what Greg's MUA showed when quoting
your message. The time is correct but is shown in 12-hr +offset format,
which is a bit weird and is in contrast to the way his own message time
is displayed in 24-hr format.

Re: Corrupt MATE configuration due to OPERATOR ERROR

[Mike Kupfer]

Richard Owlett wrote:

> I created a new, _apparently_ identical, panel.
> *HOWEVER*
>   it displays something for each item open/active in *ANY* workspace.
> 
> How do I get back to displaying something for each item open/active in
> the *CURRENT* workspace?

This is the "window list" applet that you're describing.  Position your
mouse just to the left of the leftmost item in the applet, and
right-click.  You should get a menu that has items like "System Monitor"
and "Preferences".  Click on "Preferences".  That should bring up the
controls for the applet as a whole.  Somewhere in there will be a
control for whether to display windows from the current workspace versus
from all workspaces.

mike

Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[Greg Wooledge]

On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 09:14:38AM -0500, David Wright wrote:
> You asked after your /system/ clock. I don't think I can tell whether
> it's set to UTC or Local Time, but only that it is correct, whichever
> it it on. Likewise the hardware RTC. The third line of /etc/adjtime
> says what the RTC is on; /etc/timezone says what the system is on;
> $ date   says what your user is on.

/etc/timezone is only used by some legacy programs.  All the current
ones should be using /etc/localtime instead, which is a symlink to a
binary zoneinfo file, rather than a text file containing a timezone name.

I wonder if Keith's confusion is simply due to my MUA using "AM" and "PM"
in its attribution line, and Keith not seeing the "PM".  Maybe I should
look into configuring that differently.

Re: can't connect to eduroam due to SSL3 unsupported protocol

[Stefan Monnier]

> Under Debian/unstable, I can't connect to eduroam due to the following
> reason:

AFAIK, while "the eduroam" looks like one thing it's just a bunch of
local wifi networks, each one administered mostly independently
and with different configurations.  By and large, if you can connect to
eduroam at one place it's likely it'll also work elsewhere but it's not
always the case.


Stefan

Re: can't connect to eduroam due to SSL3 unsupported protocol

[Vincent Lefevre]

On 2024-06-17 08:26:39 -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:
> On stable:
> $ openssl list -disabled
> Disabled algorithms:
> IDEA
> MD2
> MDC2
> RC5
> SCTP
> SSL3
> ZLIB
> 
> So, SSL3 support was removed at least that long ago. I think it
> was actually dropped around 2016.

That's strange because when I installed the machine in October,
there were no issues.

-- 
Vincent Lefèvre  - Web: 
100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: 
Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)

Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[David Wright]

On Mon 17 Jun 2024 at 18:26:19 (+1000), Keith Bainbridge wrote:
> On 16/6/24 23:50, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > On Sun, Jun 16, 2024 at 06:13:36PM +1000, Keith Bainbridge wrote:
> 
> It was late afternoon on 16Jun2024 that I wrote this. Possibly
> 18:13:36 when I pressed send. I'd reckon it would likely have been
> 08:13:36 UTC  What's wrong with my system clock. I've not really
> looked at the time on my originals before.  I'll try to remember to
> enter my local time as I press send

All the mail clients I've used apply the timestamp when you press
Send. You live in eastern Australia, I assume, and if you observe
DST at all, it won't be now.

Your attribution could benefit from having some indication of the
timezone that /it/ uses: Greg was writing in the morning, not near
midnight. But your clock is OK, as shown by the headers in your
postings:

  sending:Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2024 18:13:36 +1000
  processing: Received: from mail-oi1-x233.google.com …
  by bendel.debian.org …
  Sun, 16 Jun 2024 08:13:48 + (UTC)

You asked after your /system/ clock. I don't think I can tell whether
it's set to UTC or Local Time, but only that it is correct, whichever
it it on. Likewise the hardware RTC. The third line of /etc/adjtime
says what the RTC is on; /etc/timezone says what the system is on;
$ date   says what your user is on.

> I hope this and my several other responses find you bright and bubbly
> on a Monday morning.  I'm home from a day of cryptic crossword class,
> and minding 2 month old grand daughter etc. I hope my responses aren't
> too short.
> 
> the time is 17Jun2024@18:25:58
> 
> keithr...@gmail.com
> keith.bainbridge.3...@gmail.com
> +61 (0)447 667 468
> 
> UTC + 10:00

Looks fine to me. Mobile numbers are a separate sequence like in the
UK, aren't they, and unlike in the US.

Cheers,
David.

Re: LibreOffice et XFCE

[Haricophile]

Le Sun, 16 Jun 2024 18:24:04 +0200,
François TOURDE  a écrit :

> Oui, l'OP aussi, c'est ce qu'il met dans son message d'ailleurs. Il a
> même restreint grâce à ses tests la culpabilité à son profil
> spécifique de XFCE, et pas à l'ensemble de Sid ni LibreOffice ni
> XFCE. C'est juste un réglage de son profil.

Peut-être qu'avec un autre style de libreoffice ça passerait mieux ?

Re: Corrupt MATE configuration due to OPERATOR ERROR

[Charles Curley]

On Mon, 17 Jun 2024 05:35:17 -0500
Richard Owlett  wrote:

> ENVIRONMENT:
> Running Debian 9.13 with MATE 1.16.3 on DELL LATITUDE E6410 laptop
> an external monitor is used via ARandR 0.1.9
> Using SeaMonkey 2.49.4 for browser and email
> Yes. Multiple rev's behind. Doing housekeeping before updating ;}
> 
> MATE with installation defaults had run fine.
> Long ago I had added additional panel at top of screen to have room
> for common activities - no problem for years.

I suggest that, if you intend to upgrade to the current stable,
bookworm (Debian 12), you do that now by a completely new installation.
Restore your customization a bit at a time. If you are lucky, the
problem will go away. If the problem returns and you are lucky, you
will know which customization to revert to fix it.

You do have good backups, right?

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

Re: Virtual Terminal has seen better days

[Anssi Saari]

Mike  writes:

> Thinking back, I seem to recall the issue with the screen turning off
> started after I switched from Nouveau to the Nvidia driver.  It fixed 
> the issue I had with X but broke my console.

I think I had a similar issue some years ago and these two lines
/etc/default/grub helped:

GRUB_GFXMODE=1920x1080x32
GRUB_GFXPAYLOAD_LINUX=keep

The latter especially. And yes, I'm also using Nvidia proprietary
drivers.

Re: can't connect to eduroam due to SSL3 unsupported protocol

[Richard]

If your university still uses SSL 3.x instead on TLS there might be
something wrong.

You could check on cat.eduroam.org if there's an installer for your
university, that's usually the easiest way to set up eduroam. On paper,
Debian does support PWD, but in reality I was never able to use it, while
on Android that method isn't an issue.

But in the end, on sid, things are expected to break. So a bug report
through the official channels should be the right way, if it's something
that isn't explicitly unsupported.

Richard


On Mon, Jun 17, 2024, 14:07 Vincent Lefevre  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Under Debian/unstable, I can't connect to eduroam due to the following
> reason:
>
> Jun 17 13:58:31 qaa wpa_supplicant[1184]: wlp0s20f3:
> CTRL-EVENT-EAP-PROPOSED-METHOD vendor=0 method=25
> Jun 17 13:58:31 qaa wpa_supplicant[1184]: wlp0s20f3: CTRL-EVENT-EAP-METHOD
> EAP vendor 0 method 25 (PEAP) selected
> Jun 17 13:58:31 qaa wpa_supplicant[1184]: SSL: SSL3 alert: write (local
> SSL3 detected an error):fatal:protocol version
> Jun 17 13:58:31 qaa wpa_supplicant[1184]: OpenSSL: openssl_handshake -
> SSL_connect error:0A000102:SSL routines::unsupported protocol
> Jun 17 13:58:36 qaa wpa_supplicant[1184]: wlp0s20f3:
> CTRL-EVENT-EAP-FAILURE EAP authentication failed
>
> Anyone knows what's wrong?
>
> (There were such kinds of issues several years ago, but I thought
> this was fixed.)
>
> --
> Vincent Lefèvre  - Web: 
> 100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: 
> Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)
>
>

Re: can't connect to eduroam due to SSL3 unsupported protocol

[Dan Ritter]

Vincent Lefevre wrote: 
> Hi,
> 
> Under Debian/unstable, I can't connect to eduroam due to the following
> reason:
> 
> Jun 17 13:58:31 qaa wpa_supplicant[1184]: wlp0s20f3: 
> CTRL-EVENT-EAP-PROPOSED-METHOD vendor=0 method=25
> Jun 17 13:58:31 qaa wpa_supplicant[1184]: wlp0s20f3: CTRL-EVENT-EAP-METHOD 
> EAP vendor 0 method 25 (PEAP) selected
> Jun 17 13:58:31 qaa wpa_supplicant[1184]: SSL: SSL3 alert: write (local SSL3 
> detected an error):fatal:protocol version
> Jun 17 13:58:31 qaa wpa_supplicant[1184]: OpenSSL: openssl_handshake - 
> SSL_connect error:0A000102:SSL routines::unsupported protocol
> Jun 17 13:58:36 qaa wpa_supplicant[1184]: wlp0s20f3: CTRL-EVENT-EAP-FAILURE 
> EAP authentication failed
> 
> Anyone knows what's wrong?
> 
> (There were such kinds of issues several years ago, but I thought
> this was fixed.)

On stable:
$ openssl list -disabled
Disabled algorithms:
IDEA
MD2
MDC2
RC5
SCTP
SSL3
ZLIB

So, SSL3 support was removed at least that long ago. I think it
was actually dropped around 2016.

The problem is almost certainly that someone at the eduroam
server config doesn't know the difference between SSL3 and
TLS1.3, or something similar. You'll need to talk to them about
why they haven't enabled TLS1, 1.1, 1.2 or 1.3 -- of these, only
1.2 and 1.3 are recommended.

-dsr-

Re: Maximum size .bash_aliases file

[tomas]

On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 10:00:49PM +1000, Keith Bainbridge wrote:

[...]

> Good evening Tomas

[...]

> BUT how do we know where to look if the error is reported several lines
> above it's true position - admittedly blank lines; but?

Seems you got it sorted out. Congrats :-)

Cheers
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: can't connect to eduroam due to SSL3 unsupported protocol

[Marco Moock]

Am 17.06.2024 um 14:07:13 Uhr schrieb Vincent Lefevre:

> Anyone knows what's wrong?

If they really rely on SSL3.0 it is the fault of the network operator
because that protocol is outdated, has some vulnerabilities and is
deprecated for years. Most systems have it disabled by default.

-- 
Gruß
Marco

Send unsolicited bulk mail to 1718626033mu...@cartoonies.org

can't connect to eduroam due to SSL3 unsupported protocol

[Vincent Lefevre]

Hi,

Under Debian/unstable, I can't connect to eduroam due to the following
reason:

Jun 17 13:58:31 qaa wpa_supplicant[1184]: wlp0s20f3: 
CTRL-EVENT-EAP-PROPOSED-METHOD vendor=0 method=25
Jun 17 13:58:31 qaa wpa_supplicant[1184]: wlp0s20f3: CTRL-EVENT-EAP-METHOD EAP 
vendor 0 method 25 (PEAP) selected
Jun 17 13:58:31 qaa wpa_supplicant[1184]: SSL: SSL3 alert: write (local SSL3 
detected an error):fatal:protocol version
Jun 17 13:58:31 qaa wpa_supplicant[1184]: OpenSSL: openssl_handshake - 
SSL_connect error:0A000102:SSL routines::unsupported protocol
Jun 17 13:58:36 qaa wpa_supplicant[1184]: wlp0s20f3: CTRL-EVENT-EAP-FAILURE EAP 
authentication failed

Anyone knows what's wrong?

(There were such kinds of issues several years ago, but I thought
this was fixed.)

-- 
Vincent Lefèvre  - Web: 
100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: 
Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)