Re: Unit prefixes [was: Alt-Shift-P freezes XTerm]
On 10/15/23 04:44, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: On Sun, Oct 15, 2023 at 03:34:52AM -0400, gene heskett wrote: [...] I can beat that Tomas. At one point in the early 90's we had a PDP-11 to run a 7 meter C band dish, The VT 220 died and DEC wanted nearly 2G for a VT-550 This one keeps tripping me up: the "G" in your "2G" means "grand", yes? So it would be what others call "K". Sorry Tomas, Yes of coarse. In our "slanguage", 2G means $2000, a 2 grand price IOW. I keep forgetting that non English slang might be interpreted differently. My bad. Take care & stay well. I consistently read it as "giga" and then go "wait, what?". Cheers Cheers, Gene Heskett. -- "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940) If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable. - Louis D. Brandeis
Unit prefixes [was: Alt-Shift-P freezes XTerm]
On Sun, Oct 15, 2023 at 03:34:52AM -0400, gene heskett wrote: [...] > I can beat that Tomas. At one point in the early 90's we had a PDP-11 to run > a 7 meter C band dish, The VT 220 died and DEC wanted nearly 2G for a VT-550 This one keeps tripping me up: the "G" in your "2G" means "grand", yes? So it would be what others call "K". I consistently read it as "giga" and then go "wait, what?". Cheers -- t signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Alt-Shift-P freezes XTerm
On 10/15/23 02:06, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: On Sun, Oct 15, 2023 at 09:52:16AM +0700, Max Nikulin wrote: [...] P.S. I believed that most confusing (while still useful) feature of terminals is [Ctrl+s]. It takes some time to realize that it has been hit by mistake, so [Ctrl+q] is required to resume output. Old age gotta have some advantages: I grew up with "real" terms (VT520 and clones, mostly), so this one is "built in" for me. Now don't get me started with CTRL-E, the source of many a prank ;-) Cheers I can beat that Tomas. At one point in the early 90's we had a PDP-11 to run a 7 meter C band dish, The VT 220 died and DEC wanted nearly 2G for a VT-550 but would not guarantee it would work in place of a VT-220. I was then a fan of the TRS-80 color computer and OS9, an aftermarket OS that was a mini UNIX. And a fellow named Brian Marquette had written a VT-100 program that was quite well organized, so well organized that I was able to make a 100% compatible VT-220 out of it in just a few hours. So my office coco logged into that PDP-11 and updated the satellite schedule daily. But that PDP-11 was not stable, crashing several times daily toward the end. It got to be such a pita, and DEC changed every part in it except the frame rail engraved with the serial number, w/o any effect. Hugo was the network guy at CBS, so he had DEC trade his test mule serial number for ours, and traded me PDP-11. His Just Worked. But he was not able to fix mine which put him out of business maintaining the rest of the CBS networks machines. 2 months later I show up for work, there's two huge cartons from CBS, he was forced to find a new platform which was an industrial grade IBM PC, with an ARTIC card for the real time stuff, he had to convert the whole CBS networks satellite systems. Here we get into another problem, when the dish was installed, it came with 4 copies of the site drawings so I had a hole dug, poured the concrete, quite a few yards of it, all according to the drawings, I find 6 weeks later there was a note in just one of the 4 sets of site docs that the base was to be oriented to offset the magnetic north diff at our site, some like 17 degrees, and the sat hardware could not compensate for that much error w/o re drilling the base jacks attachment to the post. A big Roland jack about 12 feet long. They took over the move instructions by a dial up circuit, but because of that base error, my satellite table looked bogus as can be, but it was exact for my site. I finally gave up resetting it because they would helpfully fix it, and disconnected the phone line so I didn't have to screw around for a week re finding the the satellites again and again. Being a non equatorial mount, it was an AZ-EL setup, that is not as simple as equatorial, but more accurate than equatorial. At 40 degrees north, equatorial has an EL error of over a degree over the span of sat positions because of the down angle to get to the equatorial orbit positions. Not easily noted on a 3 meter home dish, but quite important for a 7 meter's much narrower beam width. Satellites aren't really stationary, the moon pulls on them so they do a figure 8 daily and only expend station keeping fuel when they are in danger of going outside their assigned box, with a 7 meter dishes accuracy, stations on both coasts had to get another bit of software that monitored incoming signal strength and if it got too weak, would go on a half a degree search for a stronger signal. Some satellites moved so far and fast that a station re-broadcasting the signal w/o a good time base corrector, were out of FCC specs for color subcarrier's +- 10 hz requirement due to the doppler effect of the satellites motion. The FCC I suspect looked the other way many times. Broadcasting can be an interesting business. Cheers, Gene Heskett. -- "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940) If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable. - Louis D. Brandeis
Re: Alt-Shift-P freezes XTerm
On Sun, Oct 15, 2023 at 09:52:16AM +0700, Max Nikulin wrote: [...] > P.S. I believed that most confusing (while still useful) feature of > terminals is [Ctrl+s]. It takes some time to realize that it has been hit by > mistake, so [Ctrl+q] is required to resume output. Old age gotta have some advantages: I grew up with "real" terms (VT520 and clones, mostly), so this one is "built in" for me. Now don't get me started with CTRL-E, the source of many a prank ;-) Cheers -- t signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Alt-Shift-P freezes XTerm
On 15/10/2023 02:10, Van Snyder wrote: The culprit is tcsh, not XTerm. With bash, Alt-Shift-P produces a colon. In tcsh the default bindings are almost the same as in bash: https://manpages.debian.org/bookworm/tcsh/tcsh.1.en.html#history-search-backward history-search-backward (M-p, M-P) P.S. I believed that most confusing (while still useful) feature of terminals is [Ctrl+s]. It takes some time to realize that it has been hit by mistake, so [Ctrl+q] is required to resume output.
Re: Alt-Shift-P freezes XTerm
The culprit is tcsh, not XTerm. With bash, Alt-Shift-P produces a colon. I added this to my .XDefaults xterm*altIsNotMeta: truexterm*altSendsEscape: true so that Alt-Shift-P becomes ESC-P. The problem now does not occur in tcsh. Thanks to the correspondents on the list. On Sat, 2023-10-14 at 15:49 +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > On Sat, Oct 14, 2023 at 08:38:22AM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote: > > On Sat, Oct 14, 2023 at 07:07:57AM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > > > On Fri, Oct 13, 2023 at 01:06:20PM -0700, Van Snyder wrote: > > > > I haven't figured out how to unlock the XTerm after > > > > accidentally givingit Alt-Shift-P. > > > > I'm not seeing whatever it is you're seeing here. On Debian 12, if > > Ilaunch an xterm (simply "xterm &") with bash running inside it, > > andpress Alt-P I get this character: ð > > Shift-Alt-P gives me this character: Ð > > Oh, that's interesting. Our setups seem to differ in some way.What I > see with AltGr (not Alt) is Þ, with shift it's þ (thisis Thorn; you > are seeing eth) > It seems that your left alt isn't doing Meta and mine doesor > something :) > [...] > > > The behaviour [of Alt-Shift-P] is the same if I do "ESC P". Does > > > that "hang yourXterm", too? > > > > Looks like your bash is in emacs (default) mode. Pressing Esc P > > inemacs mode triggers this guy: > > It is. > > "\eP": do-lowercase-version > > Well, we were talking about the uppercase one (remember: alt- > shift),so it is this: > > "\ep": non-incremental-reverse-search-history > > non-incremental-reverse-search-history (M-p)Search > > backward through the history starting at the current > > lineusing a non-incremental search for a string > > supplied by theuser. > > I'm not 100% sure what that means, but maybe you can figure it out > > ifyou continue experimenting with it. I don't normally run bash in > > emacsmode myself, so many of these readline features are foreign to > > me. > > I tried to describe what it does, and yes, this matches the > behaviourpretty well: readline (I suppose) prints a colon (I guess > this is meantas a prompt), you may enter some string, and then it > searches back inthe history for the last matching command -- so like > an incrementalbackward search without the incremental bit :-) > > Anyway, all of that's an interesting tangent, but I still don't > > geta "freeze" in xterm from any of this. > > Absolutely. To both. > > Van Snyder, can you try running this in your xterm: > > bind -p | grep P > > That should tell us whether you have any unusual readline > > bindingsinvolving the letter P (capital) which might be at fault > > here. In myshell, I just have these: > > unicorn:~$ set -o viunicorn:~$ bind -p | grep P"P": self- > > insertunicorn:~$ set -o emacsunicorn:~$ bind -p | grep P"\C-xP": > > do-lowercase-version"\eP": do-lowercase-version"P": self-insert > > That's what I get too. Now curious as to what Van Snyder gets :-) > Cheers
Re: Alt-Shift-P freezes XTerm
On Sat, Oct 14, 2023 at 08:38:22AM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote: > On Sat, Oct 14, 2023 at 07:07:57AM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > > On Fri, Oct 13, 2023 at 01:06:20PM -0700, Van Snyder wrote: > > > I haven't figured out how to unlock the XTerm after accidentally giving > > > it Alt-Shift-P. > > I'm not seeing whatever it is you're seeing here. On Debian 12, if I > launch an xterm (simply "xterm &") with bash running inside it, and > press Alt-P I get this character: ð > > Shift-Alt-P gives me this character: Ð Oh, that's interesting. Our setups seem to differ in some way. What I see with AltGr (not Alt) is Þ, with shift it's þ (this is Thorn; you are seeing eth) It seems that your left alt isn't doing Meta and mine does or something :) [...] > > The behaviour [of Alt-Shift-P] is the same if I do "ESC P". Does that "hang > > your > > Xterm", too? > > Looks like your bash is in emacs (default) mode. Pressing Esc P in > emacs mode triggers this guy: It is. > "\eP": do-lowercase-version Well, we were talking about the uppercase one (remember: alt-shift), so it is this: > "\ep": non-incremental-reverse-search-history > > non-incremental-reverse-search-history (M-p) > Search backward through the history starting at the current line > using a non-incremental search for a string supplied by the > user. > > I'm not 100% sure what that means, but maybe you can figure it out if > you continue experimenting with it. I don't normally run bash in emacs > mode myself, so many of these readline features are foreign to me. I tried to describe what it does, and yes, this matches the behaviour pretty well: readline (I suppose) prints a colon (I guess this is meant as a prompt), you may enter some string, and then it searches back in the history for the last matching command -- so like an incremental backward search without the incremental bit :-) > Anyway, all of that's an interesting tangent, but I still don't get > a "freeze" in xterm from any of this. Absolutely. To both. > Van Snyder, can you try running this in your xterm: > > bind -p | grep P > > That should tell us whether you have any unusual readline bindings > involving the letter P (capital) which might be at fault here. In my > shell, I just have these: > > unicorn:~$ set -o vi > unicorn:~$ bind -p | grep P > "P": self-insert > unicorn:~$ set -o emacs > unicorn:~$ bind -p | grep P > "\C-xP": do-lowercase-version > "\eP": do-lowercase-version > "P": self-insert That's what I get too. Now curious as to what Van Snyder gets :-) Cheers -- t signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Alt-Shift-P freezes XTerm
On Sat, Oct 14, 2023 at 07:07:57AM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > On Fri, Oct 13, 2023 at 01:06:20PM -0700, Van Snyder wrote: > > I haven't figured out how to unlock the XTerm after accidentally giving > > it Alt-Shift-P. I'm not seeing whatever it is you're seeing here. On Debian 12, if I launch an xterm (simply "xterm &") with bash running inside it, and press Alt-P I get this character: ð Shift-Alt-P gives me this character: Ð This is independent of whether bash is in emacs mode or vi mode. > > But I did work out how to prevent it. Put > > xterm*altIsNotMeta: truexterm*altSendsEscape: true > > in your .Xdefaults (or .Xresources, or link those files together), then > > xrdb -merge ~/.Xdefaults > > Interesting. If I do that I see a colon, which disappears if I > hit enter afterwards. Then things are "back to normal". > > If I run "od -C" on that term, I see the sequence "1b P", so I > guess the term is just passing "ESC P" to the shell, and the one > doing the magic is actually the shell running in there. > > The behaviour is the same if I do "ESC P". Does that "hang your > Xterm", too? Looks like your bash is in emacs (default) mode. Pressing Esc P in emacs mode triggers this guy: "\eP": do-lowercase-version whose description in readline(3readline) says do-lowercase-version (M-A, M-B, M-x, ...) If the metafied character x is uppercase, run the command that is bound to the corresponding metafied lowercase character. The behavior is undefined if x is already lowercase. So... apparently it's supposed to act the same as "metafied lowercase p", which I guess means it's running this guy: "\ep": non-incremental-reverse-search-history non-incremental-reverse-search-history (M-p) Search backward through the history starting at the current line using a non-incremental search for a string supplied by the user. I'm not 100% sure what that means, but maybe you can figure it out if you continue experimenting with it. I don't normally run bash in emacs mode myself, so many of these readline features are foreign to me. Anyway, all of that's an interesting tangent, but I still don't get a "freeze" in xterm from any of this. Van Snyder, can you try running this in your xterm: bind -p | grep P That should tell us whether you have any unusual readline bindings involving the letter P (capital) which might be at fault here. In my shell, I just have these: unicorn:~$ set -o vi unicorn:~$ bind -p | grep P "P": self-insert unicorn:~$ set -o emacs unicorn:~$ bind -p | grep P "\C-xP": do-lowercase-version "\eP": do-lowercase-version "P": self-insert If yours is different, then we have something to investigate.
Re: Alt-Shift-P freezes XTerm
On Fri, Oct 13, 2023 at 01:06:20PM -0700, Van Snyder wrote: > On Fri, 2023-10-13 at 12:38 -0700, Van Snyder wrote: > > I have set up Alt-Shift-P as a macro in my editor (nedit) to run > > pdflatex. > > If I accidentally do it when XTerm has keyboard focus, it locks up > > and the only thing I can do is kill it and restart. > > How can I unlock XTerm after doing this? > > There are no Alt-Shift sequences listed at > > https://www.xfree86.org/current/ctlseqs.html (maybe it's only about > > output sent to XTerm). > > Is there a list of Alt-Shift (and Alt-Ctrl and Shift-Ctrl) sequences > > for XTerm? > > Van Snyder > > I haven't figured out how to unlock the XTerm after accidentally giving > it Alt-Shift-P. > But I did work out how to prevent it. Put > xterm*altIsNotMeta: truexterm*altSendsEscape: true > in your .Xdefaults (or .Xresources, or link those files together), then > xrdb -merge ~/.Xdefaults Interesting. If I do that I see a colon, which disappears if I hit enter afterwards. Then things are "back to normal". If I run "od -C" on that term, I see the sequence "1b P", so I guess the term is just passing "ESC P" to the shell, and the one doing the magic is actually the shell running in there. The behaviour is the same if I do "ESC P". Does that "hang your Xterm", too? If yes, I'd assume that it's your shell hanging and the Xterm is "just" translating Meta-P to "ESC P". So it might be your bash's readline you'll have to complain to (lo and behold: if I do enter some text after the colon I see and hit ENTER, readline searches back in the history for the last entry containing that string [1], so it is just a backward search: perhaps that part is broken in your setup. What shell are you using?) Cheers [1] I actually didn't know about that readline key binding, since I was already happy with incremental backward search, CTRL-R) -- t signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Alt-Shift-P freezes XTerm
On Fri, 2023-10-13 at 12:38 -0700, Van Snyder wrote: > I have set up Alt-Shift-P as a macro in my editor (nedit) to run > pdflatex. > If I accidentally do it when XTerm has keyboard focus, it locks up > and the only thing I can do is kill it and restart. > How can I unlock XTerm after doing this? > There are no Alt-Shift sequences listed at > https://www.xfree86.org/current/ctlseqs.html (maybe it's only about > output sent to XTerm). > Is there a list of Alt-Shift (and Alt-Ctrl and Shift-Ctrl) sequences > for XTerm? > Van Snyder I haven't figured out how to unlock the XTerm after accidentally giving it Alt-Shift-P. But I did work out how to prevent it. Put xterm*altIsNotMeta: truexterm*altSendsEscape: true in your .Xdefaults (or .Xresources, or link those files together), then xrdb -merge ~/.Xdefaults
Alt-Shift-P freezes XTerm
I have set up Alt-Shift-P as a macro in my editor (nedit) to run pdflatex. If I accidentally do it when XTerm has keyboard focus, it locks up and the only thing I can do is kill it and restart. How can I unlock XTerm after doing this? There are no Alt-Shift sequences listed at https://www.xfree86.org/current/ctlseqs.html (maybe it's only about output sent to XTerm). Is there a list of Alt-Shift (and Alt-Ctrl and Shift-Ctrl) sequences for XTerm? Van Snyder
