Re: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation
Stuart Krivis [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I did write to Linuxworld and said that I thought the article by Barr was unfair. I pointed out what I felt were the flaws, and suggested how it could have been done better. The editor thanked me and said that my comments were being forwarded to the author. (I got the impression that other people submitted comments that went into a blackhole because they were abusive.) I wrote directly to the author and told him: |On Thu, 05 Oct 2000 19:11:56 Olaf Meeuwissen wrote: | Dear Sir, | | I just read your article about the difficulties of installing Debian. | While I do agree that it is not the easiest installation out there, I | suggest that next time you decide to write an article about it you use | the *stable* distribution to install. When installing the *unstable* | distribution you should expect rough going here and there. | | Also, reading the install documentation might explain a few of the eye | brow raisers you comment on. The Debian installation process is very | flexible and various parts can be installed from different media. You | just happened to have everything on CD-ROM. I routinely install from | a few floppies and get the rest over the net. | | BTW, that 2.2.17 kernel is now the default kernel of the Debian 2.2 | distribution, so your ethernet card should be supported now. As an | aside, the installer has been to summer school so you might want to | give it another try. To which I got the following reply: | Hi, Olaf | | Thanks for your note. See my column next week when I share | my experiences with the latest official version of potato. | | See ya, | Joe Barr -- Olaf Meeuwissen Epson Kowa Corporation, Research and Development
Re: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation
still, he's *expecting* Debian to be user-friendly. he should checkout Storm Linux instead if he wants a Debian-based distro. Debian is all about free software and nothing more. Yes the social contract does not stipulate that Debian cannot be *nor* must be user-friendly but the bottom line is *free software*. my 2cents. --- who watches the watchmen? - Original Message - From: Olaf Meeuwissen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Stuart Krivis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: debian-user@lists.debian.org Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 9:47 AM Subject: Re: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation Stuart Krivis [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I did write to Linuxworld and said that I thought the article by Barr was unfair. I pointed out what I felt were the flaws, and suggested how it could have been done better. The editor thanked me and said that my comments were being forwarded to the author. (I got the impression that other people submitted comments that went into a blackhole because they were abusive.) I wrote directly to the author and told him: |On Thu, 05 Oct 2000 19:11:56 Olaf Meeuwissen wrote: | Dear Sir, | | I just read your article about the difficulties of installing Debian. | While I do agree that it is not the easiest installation out there, I | suggest that next time you decide to write an article about it you use | the *stable* distribution to install. When installing the *unstable* | distribution you should expect rough going here and there. | | Also, reading the install documentation might explain a few of the eye | brow raisers you comment on. The Debian installation process is very | flexible and various parts can be installed from different media. You | just happened to have everything on CD-ROM. I routinely install from | a few floppies and get the rest over the net. | | BTW, that 2.2.17 kernel is now the default kernel of the Debian 2.2 | distribution, so your ethernet card should be supported now. As an | aside, the installer has been to summer school so you might want to | give it another try. To which I got the following reply: | Hi, Olaf | | Thanks for your note. See my column next week when I share | my experiences with the latest official version of potato. | | See ya, | Joe Barr -- Olaf Meeuwissen Epson Kowa Corporation, Research and Development -- Unsubscribe? mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] /dev/null
Re: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation
Olaf Meeuwissen wrote:
I wrote directly to the author and told him:
!-- Snip --
To which I got the following reply:
| Hi, Olaf
|
| Thanks for your note. See my column next week when I share
| my experiences with the latest official version of potato.
|
| See ya,
| Joe Barr
My Debian 2.2 ('potato') CD's arrived yesterday, and as Joe's new article hasn't
appeared yet, I thought I'd give it a quick go, so I know what to expect when I
really
try to install it, in 4 weeks from now.
I found an empty machine at work, with lots of standard hardware, and ran
through the
install by booting from the 1st CD. I knew the answers to all the questions I
knew I
would be asked, having been through this a number of times before.
I noticed the first huge improvement when I chose the 'simple' install, and
selected
just 'X Windowing System (complete)', 'Newbie documentation', and 'gnome
desktop'
tasks. Then - (drum roll) - NO DSELECT! Great! The install then ran to
completion with
just two minor hiccups:
1) When asked (by apt) if I wanted to scan in my other CD's I answered 'yes',
whereupon the install went into an endless loop and refused to continue. Next
time
around I answered 'no' instead, and it ran OK. I guess I could just run
'apt-cdrom
add' at a later stage, to get the other CD's scanned in.
2) When configuring xterm, I was asked for a keyboard, but my Swedish keyboard
was not
listed. The prompt assured me I could just choose 'none' and configure it
later, so I
did that. This seemed a bit strange, considering that the very first list of
options
after booting the CD _did_ list my keyboard.
The next great piece of news: everything configured OK! I tried 'dpkg -C' just
to see
how many errors I had this time, and it was completely silent. I've never seen
this
before in _any_ Debian install, so that was a big step forward.
So my only gripe (from a newbie standpoint) is this: Even though I selected
'gnome
desktop' and 'X Windowing System', they installed OK, and there were no
outstanding
configuration issues... 'startx' still doesn't give me a desktop, as there are
still
some things left to configure by hand. I now need to dig out my O'Reilly books
again,
find out where that XSession file is and edit it. No biggie, but why couldn't
the
install have done this for me?
The 'potato' install is worlds better than any previous version, but you still
need to
be somewhat knowledgeable in Linux before you can get to a world of GUI. There
are
only a few percent missing now before a true newbie, coming from a world of
Windoze,
could actually use install and use Debian out of the box.
So the big question is this: is the Debian team interested in this potentially
huge
user sector or not? With the demise of Win NT, there will soon be no decent OS
available from Murky$oft! Where will people go then? Red Hat? Or should we get
them
using Debian?
--
Best regards,
Peter Hugosson-Miller
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in
practice,
there is.
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n:Hugosson-Miller;Peter
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version:2.1
email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
title:Software Development Specialist
note:Private mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Personal Homepage: http://www.netg.se/~hugge/
adr;quoted-printable:;;Kungsgatan 12-14=0D=0ABox 7733;103 95 Stockholm;;;Sweden
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Re: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation
RedHat, Mandrake, and SuSE are all quite easy to install and start using. I find they only get difficult later on when you need to fix something that broke, or want to upgrade. They can also become a real mess if you install un-official packages. yes that's basically the problem with easy to install (as in GUI) distros. what's being done is hidden from the user by Gooey. Debian and FreeBSD are both easy to install, easy to start using, and easy to maintain. You can stick to a stable branch, or you can track the bleeding edge. I actually prefer FreeBSD for its ports system and cvsup. But FreeBSD is a source-based distro, where Linux is binary distribution. agree. as this two *nix don't have pretty faces to hide what's going on you're in control. i like both *nix as they share (somewhat) the same package management idea. apt-get or cvsup anything you want!
Re: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation
Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED] ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): Daunting installation? I totally disagree. Debian is the easiest console mode installation I have ever seen (Win 3.1, Redhat 5.something, etc.). The difficult part for me was creating the bootable CD. Once I figured out the queer directory structure, it was as simple as flopping the CD on the drive and pressing enter, enter, and enter... My main complaint is against the Debian ftp directory structure: Unlike with Redhat and Co., you can't just copy the files off the ftp site (unless you're willing to put up with the truly daunting 650 MB iso download). Debian lumps together the various architectures, such that a simple recursive ftp from (target site)/pub/linux/distributions/debian/ won't do the trick. Redhat, on the other hand, has separate directories for the files needed for i386, sparc, alpha, etc. (I'm not sure if things will remain just as neat with the multi-CD Redhat 7.0). I don't understand. I see .../debian/dists/potato/main/binary-i386/ so what's that but the architecture? Or did you expect to see the architecture above the Debian distribution in the tree? Cheers, -- Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel: +44 1908 653 739 Fax: +44 1908 655 151 Snail: David Wright, Earth Science Dept., Milton Keynes, England, MK7 6AA Disclaimer: These addresses are only for reaching me, and do not signify official stationery. Views expressed here are either my own or plagiarised.
Re: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation
I had tried ftp'ing from /debian/dists/potato/main/binary-i386/. It contains far too many files to fit on a CD. And it doesn't contain the boot images and other non-.deb stuff. So how did I finally get my bootable CD? I (ahem) (1) Downloaded the first 2MB's of the .iso image (2) Loop mount'ed the partial image and then typed at the mount point something like find . to get the CD file list. (3) Used gedit to search and replace the ./ in the file list with something my ftp program could recognize (turning for instance ./dist/potato/ into ftp.foobear.net/pub/linux/dist/potato) (4) Fed the URL's to my ftp program, and waited, and waited (some more) (5) Tweaked the files a bit to get the symlinks to work. (6) Picked a nice boot image (which BTW is to be found in /dists/potato/main/disks-i386/ and not in package directory /debian/dists/potato/main/binary-i386/) to feed to mkisofs's -b option. (7) And burned, baby, burned. On Mon, 09 Oct 2000, David Wright wrote: Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED] ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): snip My main complaint is against the Debian ftp directory structure: Unlike with Redhat and Co., you can't just copy the files off the ftp site (unless you're willing to put up with the truly daunting 650 MB iso download). Debian lumps together the various architectures, such that a simple recursive ftp from (target site)/pub/linux/distributions/debian/ won't do the trick. Redhat, on the other hand, has separate directories for the files needed for i386, sparc, alpha, etc. (I'm not sure if things will remain just as neat with the multi-CD Redhat 7.0). I don't understand. I see .../debian/dists/potato/main/binary-i386/ so what's that but the architecture? Or did you expect to see the architecture above the Debian distribution in the tree?
Re: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I had tried ftp'ing from /debian/dists/potato/main/binary-i386/. It contains far too many files to fit on a CD. And it doesn't contain the boot images and other non-.deb stuff. So how did I finally get my bootable CD? I (ahem) And what's wrong with this? http://cdimage.debian.org/ch32.html
RE: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation
Go to http://cdimage.debian.org to find the easy way! Matthew Sherborne -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, 10 October 2000 2:36 p.m. To: debian-user@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation I had tried ftp'ing from /debian/dists/potato/main/binary-i386/. It contains far too many files to fit on a CD. And it doesn't contain the boot images and other non-.deb stuff. So how did I finally get my bootable CD? I (ahem) (1) Downloaded the first 2MB's of the .iso image (2) Loop mount'ed the partial image and then typed at the mount point something like find . to get the CD file list. (3) Used gedit to search and replace the ./ in the file list with something my ftp program could recognize (turning for instance ./dist/potato/ into ftp.foobear.net/pub/linux/dist/potato) (4) Fed the URL's to my ftp program, and waited, and waited (some more) (5) Tweaked the files a bit to get the symlinks to work. (6) Picked a nice boot image (which BTW is to be found in /dists/potato/main/disks-i386/ and not in package directory /debian/dists/potato/main/binary-i386/) to feed to mkisofs's -b option. (7) And burned, baby, burned. On Mon, 09 Oct 2000, David Wright wrote: Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED] ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): snip My main complaint is against the Debian ftp directory structure: Unlike with Redhat and Co., you can't just copy the files off the ftp site (unless you're willing to put up with the truly daunting 650 MB iso download). Debian lumps together the various architectures, such that a simple recursive ftp from (target site)/pub/linux/distributions/debian/ won't do the trick. Redhat, on the other hand, has separate directories for the files needed for i386, sparc, alpha, etc. (I'm not sure if things will remain just as neat with the multi-CD Redhat 7.0). I don't understand. I see .../debian/dists/potato/main/binary-i386/ so what's that but the architecture? Or did you expect to see the architecture above the Debian distribution in the tree? -- Unsubscribe? mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] /dev/null
Re: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation
On Thu, Oct 05, 2000 at 04:47:46PM -0400, mike wrote: There is another way to get Debian potato up and running quickly with a nice GUI install. Just d/l the free 'hail' distro from stormix.com or get their cd and you'll be apt-get'ting in about a half-hour. You can then I was never able to get stormix to install. I e-mailed them, and they finally replied a month later. The guy said something like, Oh, yeah, we've been having problems figuring out SCSI, but we'll fix it one of these days. I left them to their fixing and tell people to steer clear of stormix. :-) I've done a lot of installs with a lot of distros and flavors of unix. Some are harder than others, but it seems that the place where people get stuck is _after_ the install. Ok, what do I do now? Solaris is pretty hard to figure out if you're not used to it. It's also a lot easier if you have an already working Solaris machine you can look at if you get stuck. Unixware had some non-obvious things that needed to be done after install, then I had to fight to compile what I needed. (Not many people worry about make targets for unixware...) OpenBSD was kind of a bear. It pretty much just installed to the hard drive and left all other setup to the user. OpenSTEP was mixed. Some things were really easy, others I had to fight with. Then I had to unlearn some of the things I knew from other unix systems. RedHat, Mandrake, and SuSE are all quite easy to install and start using. I find they only get difficult later on when you need to fix something that broke, or want to upgrade. They can also become a real mess if you install un-official packages. Debian and FreeBSD are both easy to install, easy to start using, and easy to maintain. You can stick to a stable branch, or you can track the bleeding edge. I actually prefer FreeBSD for its ports system and cvsup. But FreeBSD is a source-based distro, where Linux is binary distribution. I have to wonder if the GPL is at the root of this. It seems that GPLed stuff is made available in binary form and then the source is an afterthought - like they were grudgingly forced to offer it to you. :-) I know that's an exaggeration, but still... I did write to Linuxworld and said that I thought the article by Barr was unfair. I pointed out what I felt were the flaws, and suggested how it could have been done better. The editor thanked me and said that my comments were being forwarded to the author. (I got the impression that other people submitted comments that went into a blackhole because they were abusive.) -- Stuart Krivis
Re: ODP: Debian chicken (was: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation)
i think i missed the storm. anyway, i read that article about Debian not being user-friendly but who says user-friendliness is Debian's topmost priority? Randy should have read Debian's social contract first. if anyone wants a friendly Debian distro they should try Storm Linux. my 2cents. - Original Message - From: Peter Hugosson-Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: debian-user@lists.debian.org Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2000 1:22 PM Subject: Re: ODP: Debian chicken (was: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is list for debian users. Glad to hear it. I've been trying to get Linux installed for about 5 years, and the only distribution I have looked at is Debian. Call me a masochist, but I am lured by the idea of an OS that is rock-stable and easy to maintain and update. If only it were easy to install, then Billy boy (not to mention redhat and others) would all be looking for new jobs by now. FWIW, I've ordered the Debian 2.2 set of 6 CDs from http://www.cheeplinux.com and have arranged a wife-free week in November for my next attempt. Right now, I am in the preparatory stage of collecting as many hints, and as much encouragement as possible. You might think I should be looking at redhat, but that's just your opinion. Most people on this list seem to think that Debian is worth perservering with. The purpose of my post was to thank Randy for pointing me at a good article, and to make a serious suggestion about a t-shirt design. We geeks like cool t-shirts, and the fact that the Debian chicken is such a long-lived animal suggests to me that he deserves to be immortalized for posterity. If I could draw, I wouldn't be asking for help here. -- Best regards, Peter Hugosson-Miller Bill Gates: The man who gave cream pies a good name.
Re: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation
On Thu, Oct 05, 2000 at 09:42:13PM +0100, Glyn Millington wrote: I'm just over a month into Debian and have hassled the list with lots of my configuration problems. That being said, the conversion from Mandrake to Debian was relatively painless and I actually preferred the very interactive Debian approach; and am slowly discovering that almost all the information I need to sort out my problems is sitting here inside my box. RTFM remains some of the best advice around, though sometimes it helps to be told where TFM IS! What I need (not a complete newbie but not an expert by any means) is actually some help finding a path through the documentation; perhaps a list of the docs that would be most helpful to a beginner trying to, say, compile a kernel, or configure sound, sort out X or set up a small network. Part of the fascination of any kind of Linux is figuring it out and getting under the bonnet (as we say over here); but some guidance as to where the helpful bits of the docs are would help a lot. wouldn't it be nice if there were just a HELP command? *something* for the newbie to stumble onto that'll point out likely suspects when it comes to looking for answers...? % help help: Command not found. duh! -- things are more like they used to be than they are now. [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** http://www.dontUthink.com/
Re: ODP: Debian chicken (was: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation)
On Thu, Oct 05, 2000 at 03:10:07PM -0400, Andy Bastien wrote: There are those who would have you believe that Keith G. Murphy wrote: George Bonser wrote: I for one would buy a t-shirt with the chicken printed on it. Any takers? hmmm ... now that sounds really cool. Make the Debian mascot a chicken! I kinda like it. How about a logo with a penguin and a chicken, wing/flipper over each others shoulder! So cool! Well, the old logo did look like a chick, after all. On the other hand we could make it a cock, er, I mean rooster. I suppose that would go with woody. set phrasers on pun. awful! -- things are more like they used to be than they are now. [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** http://www.dontUthink.com/
Re: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation
On Fri, 6 Oct 2000, will trillich wrote: On Thu, Oct 05, 2000 at 09:42:13PM +0100, Glyn Millington wrote: % help help: Command not found. What shell are you using? ihatemilk:/home/ihatemilk% help GNU bash, version 2.04.0(1)-release (i386-pc-linux-gnu) These shell commands are defined internally. Type `help' to see this list. Type `help name' to find out more about the function `name'. Use `info bash' to find out more about the shell in general. A star (*) next to a name means that the command is disabled. %[DIGITS | WORD] [] . filename : [ arg... ] alias [-p] [name[=value] ... ] bg [job_spec] bind [-lpvsPVS] [-m keymap] [-f fi break [n] builtin [shell-builtin [arg ...]] case WORD in [PATTERN [| PATTERN]. cd [-PL] [dir] command [-pVv] command [arg ...] compgen [-abcdefjkvu] [-A action] complete [-abcdefjkvu] [-pr] [-A a continue [n] declare [-afFrxi] [-p] name[=value dirs [-clpv] [+N] [-N] disown [-h] [-ar] [jobspec ...] echo [-neE] [arg ...] enable [-pnds] [-a] [-f filename] eval [arg ...] exec [-cl] [-a name] file [redirec exit [n] export [-nf] [name ...] or export Oh, and don't forget about dhelp either. Brent
Re: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation
Quoth James Antill, Try apt-find. # dpkg -S apt-find dpkg: *apt-find* not found. # apt-get install apt-find Reading Package Lists... Done Building Dependency Tree... Done E: Couldn't find package apt-find I think what he means is apt-cache. Try man apt-cache. cheers, -- Damon Muller | Did a large procession wave their torches Criminologist/Linux Geek | As my head fell in the basket, http://killfilter.com | And was everybody dancing on the casket... PGP (GnuPG): A136E829 | - TBMG, Dead pgp7O1tMlNKxd.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation
Jan Ulrich Hasecke wrote: So I had no problems. But if someone never saw his Linux-guru-friend writing the line S3:2345:respawn:/sbin/mgetty -x 3 ttyS3 into inittab to get the fax running, how can he ever configure it? The Debian mgetty package does that for you, in the form of a comment, which you can modify and uncomment. That's at least a broad hint. Whereas with the RedHat RPM, I had to figure it out on my own. I've always found that the extras the Debian maintainers put into the packages make it easier to get them running. Granted, to some extent I'm comparing old RedHat and new Debian. Guess why. ;-)
Re: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation
Subject: Re: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation Date: Thu, Oct 05, 2000 at 09:42:13PM +0100 In reply to:Glyn Millington Quoting Glyn Millington([EMAIL PROTECTED]): I'm just over a month into Debian and have hassled the list with lots of my configuration problems. That being said, the conversion from Mandrake to Debian was relatively painless and I actually preferred the very interactive Debian approach; and am slowly discovering that almost all the information I need to sort out my problems is sitting here inside my box. RTFM remains some of the best advice around, though sometimes it helps to be told where TFM IS! Don't know if you know about the apropos command or not, but it helps in narrowing down the search. apropos kernel What I need (not a complete newbie but not an expert by any means) is actually some help finding a path through the documentation; perhaps a list of the docs that would be most helpful to a beginner trying to, say, compile a kernel, or configure sound, sort out X or set up a small network. The dwww, dhelp packages make a wealth of information easily available. As far as the kernel goes, there is information in the Documentation directory as well as a howto in /usr/share/doc/en-txt/Kernel-HOWTO.txt.gz. Note that the Howto's are _not_ Debian specific. Therefore some solutions might have to be changed to apply to your situation. The howto and howto/mini directories have many helpful files. Then after looking through all of the above, there is always Debian User. [Back to the original Topic] Aptitude, which is still a work in progress, has replaced my use of dselect, all together. Now if Adam could just add a search repeat function. Using aptitude and friends, has made, IMO, Debian the best distribution, bar none. Isn't Linux Great! :-) -- A printer consists of three main parts: the case, the jammed paper tray and the blinking red light. ___
Re: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation
Ah, sorry. apt-find is a sym link to capt, which is a lot better than dselect. Sorry if that was misleading. -- Chaotic42 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pobox.com/~chaotic42/ http://www.bigplasticfork.org/ It's too nice a day to be stupid inside - Ren Hoek (Ren Stimpy) pgpSyvqGcRB2L.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation
Daunting installation? I totally disagree. Debian is the easiest console mode installation I have ever seen (Win 3.1, Redhat 5.something, etc.). The difficult part for me was creating the bootable CD. Once I figured out the queer directory structure, it was as simple as flopping the CD on the drive and pressing enter, enter, and enter... My main complaint is against the Debian ftp directory structure: Unlike with Redhat and Co., you can't just copy the files off the ftp site (unless you're willing to put up with the truly daunting 650 MB iso download). Debian lumps together the various architectures, such that a simple recursive ftp from (target site)/pub/linux/distributions/debian/ won't do the trick. Redhat, on the other hand, has separate directories for the files needed for i386, sparc, alpha, etc. (I'm not sure if things will remain just as neat with the multi-CD Redhat 7.0). On Wed, 04 Oct 2000, Randy Edwards wrote: Has anyone seen Joe Barr's article in LinuxWorld at http://www.linuxworld.com/linuxworld/lw-2000-09/lw-09-vcontrol_2.html? I was struck by the article in a number of ways. I think it's sad that an experienced user like him couldn't install Debian (sad being the knock goes against him -- it ain't rocket science), but on the other hand, his reactions are *typical* of what I've seen when I try to have new users install Debian (so I can't knock him I guess). I've fallen into the mode that I now give new users the free Storm Linux CD, have them install that and get comfortable with GNU/Linux, and then tell them to apt up to a full Debian system. I'd love to give them a pure Debian install, but after seeing people fail on it again and again (I'll ignore topics of intelligence in the general user population:-), unless I'm there to walk them through it I know they're bound to fall on their face. Anyone else have any thoughts on this article? -- Regards, | SAT practice quiz: Microsoft is to software as ... .|Answer: McDonalds is to gourmet cooking. Randy| | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.golgotha.net -- Unsubscribe? mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] /dev/null
Debian chicken (was: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation)
Randy Edwards wrote: Has anyone seen Joe Barr's article in LinuxWorld at http://www.linuxworld.com/linuxworld/lw-2000-09/lw-09-vcontrol_2.html? !-- Snip -- Anyone else have any thoughts on this article? Thanks for the pointer, Randy! It was so refreshing to know that I'm not alone in my Debian installation blues. The article also pointed to a usenet news group: news://forum.linuxworld.com/linuxworld.forums.articles.2000-09-vcontrol_2 which was full of comments from other people in my position. I was so amused to read yet another posting from a Debian fan (no names mentioned) who claimed that the install was so easy that A chicken could have done it. 95% of the time I was pecking at the Enter key. Trolls who go on like this really aren't doing Debian any favours, all they do is get people riled up, and start huge flame wars! But it got me thinking: I'd really like to see that chicken some time. He probably wears one of those t-shirts from http://www.thinkgeek.com/ with got root? printed on the back. Maybe an artistic-minded Debian fan could make a picture of the chicken, that could be used as an alternative to the penguin? He should be standing in front of a PC with the horrible dselect tree displayed on the screen, and should be pecking at the shiftQ key. I for one would buy a t-shirt with the chicken printed on it. Any takers? -- Best regards, Peter Hugosson-Miller Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
Re: Debian chicken (was: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation)
On Thu, Oct 05, 2000 at 10:45:24AM +0200, Peter Hugosson-Miller wrote: Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur. there are exceptions. -- things are more like they used to be than they are now. [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** http://www.dontUthink.com/
Re: Debian chicken (was: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation)
things are more like they used to be than they are now. Yeah, but if it wasn't for us, we wouldn't be here.
ODP: Debian chicken (was: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation )
Do you have any other serious arguments which can confirm your professional approach to discussion about Debian installation tools? If not I suggest you send next e-mails to [EMAIL PROTECTED] This is list for debian users. Best Regards Mariusz Przygodzki -Oryginalna wiadomość- Od: Peter Hugosson-Miller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Wysłano: 5 października 2000 10:45 Do: debian-user@lists.debian.org Temat: Debian chicken (was: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation) Randy Edwards wrote: Has anyone seen Joe Barr's article in LinuxWorld at http://www.linuxworld.com/linuxworld/lw-2000-09/lw-09-vcontrol_2.html? !-- Snip -- Anyone else have any thoughts on this article? Thanks for the pointer, Randy! It was so refreshing to know that I'm not alone in my Debian installation blues. The article also pointed to a usenet news group: news://forum.linuxworld.com/linuxworld.forums.articles.2000-09-vcontrol_2 which was full of comments from other people in my position. I was so amused to read yet another posting from a Debian fan (no names mentioned) who claimed that the install was so easy that A chicken could have done it. 95% of the time I was pecking at the Enter key. Trolls who go on like this really aren't doing Debian any favours, all they do is get people riled up, and start huge flame wars! But it got me thinking: I'd really like to see that chicken some time. He probably wears one of those t-shirts from http://www.thinkgeek.com/ with got root? printed on the back. Maybe an artistic-minded Debian fan could make a picture of the chicken, that could be used as an alternative to the penguin? He should be standing in front of a PC with the horrible dselect tree displayed on the screen, and should be pecking at the shiftQ key. I for one would buy a t-shirt with the chicken printed on it. Any takers? -- Best regards, Peter Hugosson-Miller Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur. -- Unsubscribe? mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] /dev/null
Re: ODP: Debian chicken (was: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation )
I for one would buy a t-shirt with the chicken printed on it. Any takers? hmmm ... now that sounds really cool. Make the Debian mascot a chicken! I kinda like it. How about a logo with a penguin and a chicken, wing/flipper over each others shoulder! So cool!
Re: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation
I could see a person new to computers having some problems with installing Debian. It isn't the best install in the world. However, anyone who has a good understanding of computers (by this I don't mean Start-Programs-MS Word) should be able to install Debian with little trouble. I've installed 1.3 and 2.1 on my system. I upgraded from 1.3 to 2, then to 2.1, and then was the victim of a hard drive death. 2.1 seems to be a lot easier, with the ability to choose different installation types. I digress. My point is, Debian isn't difficult, even relative to the other 'main' Linux based distros out there, to install. It could be made better, but it isn't worth not using Debian over. -- Chaotic42 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.pobox.com/~chaotic42/ http://www.bigplasticfork.org/ We are what we repeatedly do - Aristotle pgpGL9V18lnI6.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: ODP: Debian chicken (was: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is list for debian users. Glad to hear it. I've been trying to get Linux installed for about 5 years, and the only distribution I have looked at is Debian. Call me a masochist, but I am lured by the idea of an OS that is rock-stable and easy to maintain and update. If only it were easy to install, then Billy boy (not to mention redhat and others) would all be looking for new jobs by now. FWIW, I've ordered the Debian 2.2 set of 6 CDs from http://www.cheeplinux.com and have arranged a wife-free week in November for my next attempt. Right now, I am in the preparatory stage of collecting as many hints, and as much encouragement as possible. You might think I should be looking at redhat, but that's just your opinion. Most people on this list seem to think that Debian is worth perservering with. The purpose of my post was to thank Randy for pointing me at a good article, and to make a serious suggestion about a t-shirt design. We geeks like cool t-shirts, and the fact that the Debian chicken is such a long-lived animal suggests to me that he deserves to be immortalized for posterity. If I could draw, I wouldn't be asking for help here. -- Best regards, Peter Hugosson-Miller Bill Gates: The man who gave cream pies a good name. begin:vcard n:Hugosson-Miller;Peter tel;fax:+468 676 5010 tel;home:+468 756 93 58 tel;work:+468 676 52 70 x-mozilla-html:TRUE org:A href=http://www.im.se;IMG SRC=http://www.nasdaq.com/logos/IMIC.GIF ALT=Industri-Matematik International/A version:2.1 email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] title:Software Development Specialist note:Private mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Personal Homepage: http://www.netg.se/~hugge/ adr;quoted-printable:;;Kungsgatan 12-14=0D=0ABox 7733;103 95 Stockholm;;;Sweden x-mozilla-cpt:;19328 fn:Peter Hugosson-Miller end:vcard
Re: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation
Hi, On Wed, 4 Oct 2000, me wrote: 3) If the reviewer had been a newbie, the complaints might have been forgivable. Deb is not (yet) for newbies. It's getting there, though. If the newbie is a fiddler, he or she can manage with a little help from (Debian) friends. When I started installing Debian on my Atari TT, I had never seen another Linux distri before, I just knew a handful of Unix commands from my account at the University mainframes. It is necessary to have some people around to help and a certain stubborness to go through and things will work out. disaster. 8) I switched *to* Debian because it was easy to install online. I tried Debian because there were no alternative distris for m68k-machines and was successful because the m68k-people were quite patient with me. So finally, when I got my second computer, this time not m68k, I changed from the preinstalled RedHat back to Debian, because I like it better. Whether Debian is suitable to a newbie, is pretty much dependend in the newbie and (I guess) in the experiences he or she makes when contacting the Debian lists. Regards, Kerstin -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ODP: Debian chicken (was: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation)
--On Thursday, October 5, 2000 11:22 am +0200 Peter Hugosson-Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Glad to hear it. I've been trying to get Linux installed for about 5 years, and the only distribution I have looked at is Debian. Call me a masochist, but Trying to install an OS - any OS - for 5 years! I wouldn't call you a masochist - something else - but, not a masochist!
Re: ODP: Debian chicken (was: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation)
George Bonser wrote: I for one would buy a t-shirt with the chicken printed on it. Any takers? hmmm ... now that sounds really cool. Make the Debian mascot a chicken! I kinda like it. How about a logo with a penguin and a chicken, wing/flipper over each others shoulder! So cool! Well, the old logo did look like a chick, after all. On the other hand we could make it a cock, er, I mean rooster.
Re: Debian chicken (was: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation)
On Thu, Oct 05, 2000 at 01:51:48AM -0700, George Bonser wrote: things are more like they used to be than they are now. Yeah, but if it wasn't for us, we wouldn't be here. Not to mention why we cross the road. -- Unsubscribe? mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] /dev/null -- Using Linux
Re: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation
Am I a newbie? I dont know. Since 1992 I have been using NEXTSTEP, then since 1998 Linux. The first install made a friend of mine. It was OpenLinux. When I wanted to upgrade I tried to install a new OpenLinux by myself. All went smooth -- but I never managed to install ISDN. So I wiped it out and tried Slink. Dselect is reaaly not very userfriendly but the real problem is not dselect. The problem is to configure your system. You have to know what kind of informations you need to configure ISDN, Network, Printers, Fax-modems etc. I had all written down from my old installation, which I left bootable, to have a fallback-system, if I ran into troubles. So the only thing I had to do, was to search for the right config-files, where I filled in the all the things I had in my old config-files. So I had no problems. But if someone never saw his Linux-guru-friend writing the line S3:2345:respawn:/sbin/mgetty -x 3 ttyS3 into inittab to get the fax running, how can he ever configure it? Generally I think that noone would ever ask how difficult or easy a linux-installation is, when you buy computers with preinstalled linux. Did you ever read an article about how to install windows? Ciao! juh -- juh's Sudelbuch Literatur und Satire per E-Mail http://www.sudelbuch.de
Re: ODP: Debian chicken (was: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation)
There are those who would have you believe that Keith G. Murphy wrote: George Bonser wrote: I for one would buy a t-shirt with the chicken printed on it. Any takers? hmmm ... now that sounds really cool. Make the Debian mascot a chicken! I kinda like it. How about a logo with a penguin and a chicken, wing/flipper over each others shoulder! So cool! Well, the old logo did look like a chick, after all. On the other hand we could make it a cock, er, I mean rooster. I suppose that would go with woody.
Re: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation
Christen Welch [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I could see a person new to computers having some problems with installing Debian. It isn't the best install in the world. However, anyone who has a good understanding of computers (by this I don't mean Start-Programs-MS Word) should be able to install Debian with little trouble. I've installed 1.3 and 2.1 on my system. I upgraded from 1.3 to 2, then to 2.1, and then was the victim of a hard drive death. 2.1 seems to be a lot easier, with the ability to choose different installation types. I'm pretty new to debian, installed my first machine just over a week ago now. To be fair it was more rushed than I wanted it to be as the drive for my old machine was dying and I need to reinstall onto a new drive fast (I was going to play with it on an old machine for a bit). Now I wasn't daunted when I sat down (I'd installed NetBSD about 4 or 5 years ago, and my old machine was an upgraded slackware 2 [running glibc2.1.3 etc.]). I digress. My point is, Debian isn't difficult, even relative to the other 'main' Linux based distros out there, to install. That's cute, it's loyal, but it isn't _true_. I'd done a couple of RH/FreeBSD installs and I pretty much put the CD in configured a bunch of things and pressed go (FreeBSD has to muck about in ports which isn't as good as it just being there ... but it was still less painful than debian). Things that got me... 1. The partioning stuff didn't tell me how to make extended partitions (I realise _now_ that for cfdisk logical == extended, but I didn't know then). This could be classified as an upstream problem, if you assume that debian can't use whatever RH uses. 2. Even though I'd changed the default partition setup I didn't change it much (I just needed a couple of xtra 3 Gig bits on the end for my old drives and a bigger swap space). But the default partition setup doesn't make any sense ... it doesn't give a hint of which partition should be used for which mount ... about half way through the first install I realised that /var was on / and / was pretty small and so I probably wasn't goign to be able to get a full install (and if I did log and cache/apt would be big problems). To be fair the above was at about 3 am, I decided to sleep and forget about it at this point. So the next day... 3. I partitioned properly this time and installed, I didn't really like they way it would ask me questions while the install was going. Esp. as I already had working XF86/exim/etc. configs ... but that was no large pain. However on this second install I'd forgotten to enable my ethernet card in modconf so I couldn't see my network and it took me _ages_ to find the modconf program. A top level deb-conf which points you at the other *conf programs would have been a great help. 4. A whole bunch of modules are manually loaded into the kernel, is there a reason for this (not a big thing, but looks wrong). Did I do something wrong with modconf ? 5. So the computer rebooted for the first or second time or whatever, and it was supposed to have installed everything. Yeh right... bits of gnome were missing (gdm I remember specifically because when I manually installed/started it it didn't run a window manager). The ispell language was set to spanish and english/american hadn't been installed (the look dictionary was on german and also didn't have either english or american installed). Traceroute was missing (I had traceroute6 though... gee thanks). I'd asked for a full development environment and autoconf/automake/libtool/cvs/gdb were all missing as were the debug version of the c library and gnome headers. 6. There is nothing like rpmfind, eventually I worked out how to do grep's over /var/state/apt/lists/* to do what I want but it's still annoying. 7. xemacs with gnus with tm doesn't work at all (Ie. xemacs -f gnus dies on load if you have configured gnus to use tm). Those were all pretty big annoyances and if I hadn't promised myself that I would take a serious look at debian after the things I'd heard about it I'd have probably gone out and bought a RH 6.2 CD. 8. After getting the network and ppp setup I diald up the modem (I'm ona static modem that's dialid up 24/7 and I'd bee AOL for about 14 hours at this point). I then realised that when I tried to install stuff it didn't prefer the CD deb lines (I didn't mind so much for _newer_ versions, but when it's downloading the same version it's annoying). 9. /etc/network/interfaces doesn't support aliases very well, copy and paste is your friend but (to be fair RH might be just as bad). 10 dpkg -S isn't as good as rpm -qf in many cases, and things like rpm -qif have to be done with multiple commands. 11. diald doesn't just work if you have ppp configured (in fact I gave up trying to get it to and just redid the modem config in the diald sepecific stuff), also dialid.conf doesn't inform you that it's useless because you need to lookin diald.defs and diald.options
Re: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation
I'm just over a month into Debian and have hassled the list with lots of my configuration problems. That being said, the conversion from Mandrake to Debian was relatively painless and I actually preferred the very interactive Debian approach; and am slowly discovering that almost all the information I need to sort out my problems is sitting here inside my box. RTFM remains some of the best advice around, though sometimes it helps to be told where TFM IS! What I need (not a complete newbie but not an expert by any means) is actually some help finding a path through the documentation; perhaps a list of the docs that would be most helpful to a beginner trying to, say, compile a kernel, or configure sound, sort out X or set up a small network. Part of the fascination of any kind of Linux is figuring it out and getting under the bonnet (as we say over here); but some guidance as to where the helpful bits of the docs are would help a lot. If it is in fact there and I've utterly missed both it and the point Many thanks for help received thus far. Debian is terrific - wouldn't change back! Glyn M -- ** * The soul is greater than the hum of its parts. * * Douglas Hoftstatder* **
Re: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation
On Thu, Oct 05, 2000 at 03:10:59PM -0400, James Antill [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Christen Welch [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I digress. My point is, Debian isn't difficult, even relative to the other 'main' Linux based distros out there, to install. That's cute, it's loyal, but it isn't _true_. Of course, it's all subjective. I've installed Debian, Red Hat, and SuSE, and they all seemed to be about the same difficulty to install. I really didn't like YaST or whatever with SuSE, but it wasn't hard. Things that got me... 1. The partioning stuff didn't tell me how to make extended partitions (I realise _now_ that for cfdisk logical == extended, but I didn't know then). This could be classified as an upstream problem, if you assume that debian can't use whatever RH uses. That's just terminology. You call it one thing, it calls it another. It doesn't obfuscate the process, it just uses a different word. 2. Even though I'd changed the default partition setup I didn't change it much (I just needed a couple of xtra 3 Gig bits on the end for my old drives and a bigger swap space). But the default partition setup doesn't make any sense ... it doesn't give a hint of which partition should be used for which mount ... about half way through the first install I realised that /var was on / and / was pretty small and so I probably wasn't goign to be able to get a full install (and if I did log and cache/apt would be big problems). To be honest, I don't remember the partitioning portions of the other Linux distros. However, unless you specifically set aside another partiton, everything will be on /. For example, hdb2 is my /, and hdb3 is my /home. Seems kind of obvious, but I could see how someone could have problems, sort of. To be fair the above was at about 3 am, I decided to sleep and forget about it at this point. So the next day... heh, I do that alot. I should learn to work on projects while I'm awake. 3. I partitioned properly this time and installed, I didn't really like they way it would ask me questions while the install was going. Esp. as I already had working XF86/exim/etc. configs ... but that was no large pain. However on this second install I'd forgotten to enable my ethernet card in modconf so I couldn't see my network and it took me _ages_ to find the modconf program. A top level deb-conf which points you at the other *conf programs would have been a great help. Yeah, this is what's nice about apt-get, if you know it exists. Package installation needs to be simplified. Dselect is a piece of crap. 4. A whole bunch of modules are manually loaded into the kernel, is there a reason for this (not a big thing, but looks wrong). Did I do something wrong with modconf ? I think this is just the general use kernel. I've always recompiled mine. Hardware selection should be replaced with good hardware detection, so that you only load up what you need. 5. So the computer rebooted for the first or second time or whatever, and it was supposed to have installed everything. Yeh right... bits of gnome were missing (gdm I remember specifically because when I manually installed/started it it didn't run a window manager). The Was a window manager installed? ispell language was set to spanish and english/american hadn't been installed (the look dictionary was on german and also didn't have either english or american installed). Now this I don't have a clue about. Mine always installed english Traceroute was missing (I had traceroute6 though... gee thanks). /usr/sbin/traceroute I'd asked for a full development environment and autoconf/automake/libtool/cvs/gdb were all missing as were the debug version of the c library and gnome headers. Don't know about this either. Can't really comment. 6. There is nothing like rpmfind, eventually I worked out how to do grep's over /var/state/apt/lists/* to do what I want but it's still annoying. Try apt-find. 7. xemacs with gnus with tm doesn't work at all (Ie. xemacs -f gnus dies on load if you have configured gnus to use tm). Don't know about this either. Just messed with emacs last night for the first time (I like vi). Those were all pretty big annoyances and if I hadn't promised myself that I would take a serious look at debian after the things I'd heard about it I'd have probably gone out and bought a RH 6.2 CD. Hope some of my suggestions can help someone. 8. After getting the network and ppp setup I diald up the modem (I'm ona static modem that's dialid up 24/7 and I'd bee AOL for about 14 hours at this point). AOL? 9. /etc/network/interfaces doesn't support aliases very well, copy and paste is your friend but (to be fair RH might be just as bad). Don't know here either (seems like I'm not being very helpful). 10 dpkg -S isn't as good as rpm -qf in many cases, and things like rpm -qif have to be done with multiple commands. I've personally never had problems.
Re: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation
There is another way to get Debian potato up and running quickly with a nice GUI install. Just d/l the free 'hail' distro from stormix.com or get their cd and you'll be apt-get'ting in about a half-hour. You can then remove the stormix stuff (admin pkgs) but keep the stormpkg manager for a nice graphical front end to dselect/apt-get. Since the Debian install is daunting this is a good way to introduce newbies to Debian. After they start using Debian this way, then their next 'pure' Debian install is a lot less daunting. On 05 Oct 2000 15:10:59 -0400, James Antill said: Christen Welch [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I could see a person new to computers having some problems with installing Debian. It isn't the best install in the world. However, anyone who has a good understanding of computers (by this I don't mean Start-Programs-MS Word) should be able to install Debian with little trouble. I've installed 1.3 and 2.1 on my system. I upgraded from 1.3 to 2, then to 2.1, and then was the victim of a hard drive death. 2.1 seems to be a lot easier, with the ability to choose different installation types. I'm pretty new to debian, installed my first machine just over a week ago now. To be fair it was more rushed than I wanted it to be as the drive for my old machine was dying and I need to reinstall onto a new drive fast (I was going to play with it on an old machine for a bit). Now I wasn't daunted when I sat down (I'd installed NetBSD about 4 or 5 years ago, and my old machine was an upgraded slackware 2 [running glibc2.1.3 etc.]). I digress. My point is, Debian isn't difficult, even relative to the other 'main' Linux based distros out there, to install. That's cute, it's loyal, but it isn't _true_. I'd done a couple of RH/FreeBSD installs and I pretty much put the CD in configured a bunch of things and pressed go (FreeBSD has to muck about in ports which isn't as good as it just being there ... but it was still less painful than debian). Things that got me... 1. The partioning stuff didn't tell me how to make extended partitions (I realise _now_ that for cfdisk logical == extended, but I didn't know then). This could be classified as an upstream problem, if you assume that debian can't use whatever RH uses. 2. Even though I'd changed the default partition setup I didn't change it much (I just needed a couple of xtra 3 Gig bits on the end for my old drives and a bigger swap space). But the default partition setup doesn't make any sense ... it doesn't give a hint of which partition should be used for which mount ... about half way through the first install I realised that /var was on / and / was pretty small and so I probably wasn't goign to be able to get a full install (and if I did log and cache/apt would be big problems). To be fair the above was at about 3 am, I decided to sleep and forget about it at this point. So the next day... 3. I partitioned properly this time and installed, I didn't really like they way it would ask me questions while the install was going. Esp. as I already had working XF86/exim/etc. configs ... but that was no large pain. However on this second install I'd forgotten to enable my ethernet card in modconf so I couldn't see my network and it took me _ages_ to find the modconf program. A top level deb-conf which points you at the other *conf programs would have been a great help. 4. A whole bunch of modules are manually loaded into the kernel, is there a reason for this (not a big thing, but looks wrong). Did I do something wrong with modconf ? 5. So the computer rebooted for the first or second time or whatever, and it was supposed to have installed everything. Yeh right... bits of gnome were missing (gdm I remember specifically because when I manually installed/started it it didn't run a window manager). The ispell language was set to spanish and english/american hadn't been installed (the look dictionary was on german and also didn't have either english or american installed). Traceroute was missing (I had traceroute6 though... gee thanks). I'd asked for a full development environment and autoconf/automake/libtool/cvs/gdb were all missing as were the debug version of the c library and gnome headers. 6. There is nothing like rpmfind, eventually I worked out how to do grep's over /var/state/apt/lists/* to do what I want but it's still annoying. 7. xemacs with gnus with tm doesn't work at all (Ie. xemacs -f gnus dies on load if you have configured gnus to use tm). Those were all pretty big annoyances and if I hadn't promised myself that I would take a serious look at debian after the things I'd heard about it I'd have probably gone out and bought a RH 6.2 CD. 8. After getting the network and ppp setup I diald up the modem (I'm ona static modem
Re: ODP: Debian chicken (was: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation)
Well, the old logo did look like a chick, after all.
On the other hand we could make it a cock, er, I mean rooster.
I suppose that would go with woody.
LOL ... who says Debian users aren't funny ;-).
jt
--
Debian GNU/Linux [Woody]
2.4.0-test8-ReiserFS
Storm {Hail}
You mean there's a stable tree?
Re: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation
Christen Welch [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Thu, Oct 05, 2000 at 03:10:59PM -0400, James Antill [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Christen Welch [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [ snip ... ] 1. The partioning stuff didn't tell me how to make extended partitions (I realise _now_ that for cfdisk logical == extended, but I didn't know then). This could be classified as an upstream problem, if you assume that debian can't use whatever RH uses. That's just terminology. You call it one thing, it calls it another. It doesn't obfuscate the process, it just uses a different word. Not quite... Yeh, and I admit it was between 1-3am after my disk started to fry when I was doing it. But I knew that disk partition went... primary 1 primary 2 extended block 1 logical 1 logical 2 extended block 2 logical 1 ... So I kept looking for how to create the extended section so I could put my logical sections in there (I'd only used fdisk before and that makes you create the extended blocks ... or the RH DiskDruid (?)). Maybe it was just lack of sleep and inability to think beyond all my data that I needed to save quickly. 2. Even though I'd changed the default partition setup I didn't change it much (I just needed a couple of xtra 3 Gig bits on the end for my old drives and a bigger swap space). But the default partition setup doesn't make any sense ... it doesn't give a hint of which partition should be used for which mount ... about half way through the first install I realised that /var was on / and / was pretty small and so I probably wasn't goign to be able to get a full install (and if I did log and cache/apt would be big problems). To be honest, I don't remember the partitioning portions of the other Linux distros. However, unless you specifically set aside another partiton, everything will be on /. For example, hdb2 is my /, and hdb3 is my /home. Seems kind of obvious, but I could see how someone could have problems, sort of. IIRC the defaults were something like... primary 1 = small amount of data (100 Meg ish) primary 2 = swap primary 3 = about 10 Gig I think primary 4 = the rest of the drive (about 35 Gig). ...this could be slightly out but it was sort of like that (Ie. small, swap, fairly big, and rest). I'm guessing now that it assumed... p1 = /boot p3 = / p4 = /home ...but even that looks wrong, why would you want a 100 Meg /boot. The point was that in RH when partitioning the default is what the program thinks it should be mounted as. Where as the debian one always defaults to the first available drive (this was even worse in my case as I had a bunch of SCSI drives that were always positioned at the front/top of the list). 4. A whole bunch of modules are manually loaded into the kernel, is there a reason for this (not a big thing, but looks wrong). Did I do something wrong with modconf ? I think this is just the general use kernel. I've always recompiled mine. Hardware selection should be replaced with good hardware detection, so that you only load up what you need. Yeh I've planned on compiling my own, but I wanted to experience the one true way for a bit first (well before I break things). 5. So the computer rebooted for the first or second time or whatever, and it was supposed to have installed everything. Yeh right... bits of gnome were missing (gdm I remember specifically because when I manually installed/started it it didn't run a window manager). The Was a window manager installed? Yep, twm was installed by default and I'd manually apt-get install'd sawfish (I saw someone else complaining of the same problem a couple of days ago). ispell language was set to spanish and english/american hadn't been installed (the look dictionary was on german and also didn't have either english or american installed). Now this I don't have a clue about. Mine always installed english It might have been because I decided to install the spanish/german/polish (Ie. all the languages) stuff that it just didn't ask me about english at some point. Traceroute was missing (I had traceroute6 though... gee thanks). /usr/sbin/traceroute I'm not sure, does the below match with yours ? (I had to manually install traceroute package later). # dpkg -S /usr/sbin/traceroute traceroute: /usr/sbin/traceroute # dpkg -S /usr/bin/traceroute6 netbase: /usr/bin/traceroute6 6. There is nothing like rpmfind, eventually I worked out how to do grep's over /var/state/apt/lists/* to do what I want but it's still annoying. Try apt-find. # dpkg -S apt-find dpkg: *apt-find* not found. # apt-get install apt-find Reading Package Lists... Done Building Dependency Tree... Done E: Couldn't find package apt-find 7. xemacs with gnus with tm doesn't work at all (Ie. xemacs -f gnus dies on load if you have configured gnus to use tm). Don't know about this either. Just messed with emacs last night for the first time (I like
Article: Debian's Daunting Installation
Has anyone seen Joe Barr's article in LinuxWorld at http://www.linuxworld.com/linuxworld/lw-2000-09/lw-09-vcontrol_2.html? I was struck by the article in a number of ways. I think it's sad that an experienced user like him couldn't install Debian (sad being the knock goes against him -- it ain't rocket science), but on the other hand, his reactions are *typical* of what I've seen when I try to have new users install Debian (so I can't knock him I guess). I've fallen into the mode that I now give new users the free Storm Linux CD, have them install that and get comfortable with GNU/Linux, and then tell them to apt up to a full Debian system. I'd love to give them a pure Debian install, but after seeing people fail on it again and again (I'll ignore topics of intelligence in the general user population:-), unless I'm there to walk them through it I know they're bound to fall on their face. Anyone else have any thoughts on this article? -- Regards, | SAT practice quiz: Microsoft is to software as ... .|Answer: McDonalds is to gourmet cooking. Randy| | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.golgotha.net
Re: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation
I must say that I find the constant reviews and comments that say Debian is hard to install somewhat entertaining. When I first installed Debian (Hamm), I found the installation fairly simple. Overall, I prefer Debian's installation procedures when compared to those of another distribution from North Carolina. While that other distribution always seems fairly rigid, I find that Debian gives me some level of freedom to install what I want, and ONLY what I want. What might be hard to a new user is final system configuration and tweaks. (Hey, any good sysadmin makes a lot of changes under /etc, right?) This isn't a problem unique to Debian, but to all Linux distributions. There are tools which make some of these tweaks easier -- If you can find the right tool. On the other hand, Windows is easy for many user since everything (debatable) they need is located in one Control Panel. Alec On Wed, 4 Oct 2000, Randy Edwards wrote: Has anyone seen Joe Barr's article in LinuxWorld at http://www.linuxworld.com/linuxworld/lw-2000-09/lw-09-vcontrol_2.html? I was struck by the article in a number of ways. I think it's sad that an experienced user like him couldn't install Debian (sad being the knock goes against him -- it ain't rocket science), but on the other hand, his reactions are *typical* of what I've seen when I try to have new users install Debian (so I can't knock him I guess). I've fallen into the mode that I now give new users the free Storm Linux CD, have them install that and get comfortable with GNU/Linux, and then tell them to apt up to a full Debian system. I'd love to give them a pure Debian install, but after seeing people fail on it again and again (I'll ignore topics of intelligence in the general user population:-), unless I'm there to walk them through it I know they're bound to fall on their face. Anyone else have any thoughts on this article? -- Regards, | SAT practice quiz: Microsoft is to software as ... .|Answer: McDonalds is to gourmet cooking. Randy| | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.golgotha.net -- Unsubscribe? mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] /dev/null
Re: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation
On Wed, 04 Oct 2000, Randy Edwards wrote:
Has anyone seen Joe Barr's article in LinuxWorld at
http://www.linuxworld.com/linuxworld/lw-2000-09/lw-09-vcontrol_2.html?
I was struck by the article in a number of ways. I think it's sad that
an experienced user like him couldn't install Debian (sad being the knock
goes against him -- it ain't rocket science), but on the other hand, his
reactions are *typical* of what I've seen when I try to have new users
install Debian (so I can't knock him I guess).
I've fallen into the mode that I now give new users the free Storm
Linux CD, have them install that and get comfortable with GNU/Linux, and
then tell them to apt up to a full Debian system. I'd love to give them a
pure Debian install, but after seeing people fail on it again and again
(I'll ignore topics of intelligence in the general user population:-),
unless I'm there to walk them through it I know they're bound to fall on
their face.
Just wanted to note that Storm is a full Debian distro (Hail being potato based)
+ Helix, Kde, etc. :-)
jt
--
Debian GNU/Linux [Woody]
2.4.0-test8-ReiserFS
Storm {Hail}
Re: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation
Randy Edwards [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/04/00 11:28AM Has anyone seen Joe Barr's article in LinuxWorld at http://www.linuxworld.com/linuxworld/lw-2000-09/lw-09-vcontrol_2.html? Debian/GNU was my first linux-installation ever. (hamm, some year ago) And I managed it, without any knowledge of linux. I admit I had the help of a good Linux Book (from the public library) the debian-installation manual and of course by just subscribing to this list. I have learned a lot on linux and operating-systems in general, because trying to understand the debian-way. Today I prefer Debian because of its flexible installation procedure, where I can set up a box very quick in a lot of ways, for a lot of purposes. It is also very nice to install Debian from scratch over NFS or FTP. I always did this with my RTL8139 card and the rescue disk from the debian ftp-server. I think everyone interested in understanding Linux is able to install Debian. And if you try to understand the reasons for some procedures you will learn to love them, because the purpose the developers have in mind, is certainly not, to make your life harder, or to hide anything, because they don't want to make money. And so they are only interested in getting the work done. Understanding this helps you getting YOUR work done, never mind what it is. Thats one thing I learned from the Debian installation procedure. But you already know this, because you are subscribed to this list :) It is certainly true that there is a barrier for some people in installing and understanding debian, but NOT in using. - I know what percentage of new Windoze users is able to install the OS and connect to the net without help. If the author is not able in configuring gpm or X he probably shouldn't write articles for linuxworld.com cheers, phil
Re: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation
Philipp Letschert [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/04/00 01:15PM Randy Edwards [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/04/00 11:28AM Has anyone seen Joe Barr's article in LinuxWorld at http://www.linuxworld.com/linuxworld/lw-2000-09/lw-09-vcontrol_2.html? And if one is not able to wrap long lines, he probably should not write to this list. ;) I am sorry for that. phil -- Unsubscribe? mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] /dev/null
Re: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation
Actually, Storm Linux, based on Debian (In fact, can use debian's site for apt-getting), has a GREAT installer for newbies actually. Mandrake was also easy to install. Debian should take a look at Storm's installer and newbies will finally have nothign to bitch about. On Wed, 04 Oct 2000 06:48:17 Alec Smith wrote: I must say that I find the constant reviews and comments that say Debian is hard to install somewhat entertaining. When I first installed Debian (Hamm), I found the installation fairly simple. Overall, I prefer Debian's installation procedures when compared to those of another distribution from North Carolina. While that other distribution always seems fairly rigid, I find that Debian gives me some level of freedom to install what I want, and ONLY what I want. What might be hard to a new user is final system configuration and tweaks. (Hey, any good sysadmin makes a lot of changes under /etc, right?) This isn't a problem unique to Debian, but to all Linux distributions. There are tools which make some of these tweaks easier -- If you can find the right tool. On the other hand, Windows is easy for many user since everything (debatable) they need is located in one Control Panel. Alec On Wed, 4 Oct 2000, Randy Edwards wrote: Has anyone seen Joe Barr's article in LinuxWorld at http://www.linuxworld.com/linuxworld/lw-2000-09/lw-09-vcontrol_2.html? I was struck by the article in a number of ways. I think it's sad that an experienced user like him couldn't install Debian (sad being the knock goes against him -- it ain't rocket science), but on the other hand, his reactions are *typical* of what I've seen when I try to have new users install Debian (so I can't knock him I guess). I've fallen into the mode that I now give new users the free Storm Linux CD, have them install that and get comfortable with GNU/Linux, and then tell them to apt up to a full Debian system. I'd love to give them a pure Debian install, but after seeing people fail on it again and again (I'll ignore topics of intelligence in the general user population:-), unless I'm there to walk them through it I know they're bound to fall on their face. Anyone else have any thoughts on this article? -- Regards, | SAT practice quiz: Microsoft is to software as ... .|Answer: McDonalds is to gourmet cooking. Randy| | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.golgotha.net -- Unsubscribe? mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] /dev/null -- Unsubscribe? mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] /dev/null
Re: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation
Philipp Letschert [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: If the author is not able in configuring gpm or X he probably shouldn't write articles for linuxworld.com I thought the same thing. I'm all for teaching people about computers (being a former college professor, now working in a public school district) as users' (and many techies[sic]) real knowledge of computers is amazingly low. But I think Debian's approach to installing leaves many users in the dust. Sure, we can say they're idiots who don't want to read/learn anything and we'd be perfectly correct -- but we still have to realize that we're leaving many users in the dust. My concern is not really for Debian, as it will go on as long as there are developers and volunteers for the project, but for standards like *.deb and for people other than hard-core techies viewing us as a viable distribution. One area which I thought Barr made a point (although overdone) is Debian's impact on free software. He drew a point that Debian's rough install shines badly on all free software. Overstated? Sure. But true in some respects? Hmm... Regards, . Randy -- If the current stylistic distinctions between open-source and commercial software persist, an open-software revolution could lead to yet another divide between haves and have-nots: those with the skills and connections to make use of free software, and those who must pay high prices for increasingly dated commercial offerings. -- Scientific American, Mar. 99.
Re: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation
I'm from the Apex Tech school of Debian install (first you learn how to use a tool then put the tool into your box). I had a really hard time installing from the CD's so I just installed the base system and then used apt-get to install any package that I found I needed. I would recomend this method to anyone new to Linux or Unix as it presents your system in small easy to understan pieces and not one huge incomprehensible chunk. Andy P.S. discovering apt-get was like waking up on Christmass morning and finding a pony under the tree. On Wed, 4 Oct 2000, Randy Edwards wrote: Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 06:28:57 -0400 To: debian-user@lists.debian.org debian-user@lists.debian.org From: Randy Edwards [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation Has anyone seen Joe Barr's article in LinuxWorld at http://www.linuxworld.com/linuxworld/lw-2000-09/lw-09-vcontrol_2.html? I was struck by the article in a number of ways. I think it's sad that an experienced user like him couldn't install Debian (sad being the knock goes against him -- it ain't rocket science), but on the other hand, his reactions are *typical* of what I've seen when I try to have new users install Debian (so I can't knock him I guess). I've fallen into the mode that I now give new users the free Storm Linux CD, have them install that and get comfortable with GNU/Linux, and then tell them to apt up to a full Debian system. I'd love to give them a pure Debian install, but after seeing people fail on it again and again (I'll ignore topics of intelligence in the general user population:-), unless I'm there to walk them through it I know they're bound to fall on their face. Anyone else have any thoughts on this article? -- Regards, | SAT practice quiz: Microsoft is to software as ... .|Answer: McDonalds is to gourmet cooking. Randy| | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.golgotha.net -- Unsubscribe? mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] /dev/nu __ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com
Re: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation
P.S. discovering apt-get was like waking up on Christmass morning and finding a pony under the tree. Without having to clean up after it VBG -- *-^-*-^-*-^-*-^-*-^-*-^-*-^-*-^-*-^-*-^-*-^-*-^-*-^-* Michael Leone mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP Fingerprint: 0AA8 DC47 CB63 AE3F C739 6BF9 9AB4 1EF6 5AA5 BCDF PGP Key ID: 0x5AA5BCDF --
RE: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation
If the author is not able in configuring gpm or X he probably shouldn't write articles for linuxworld.com I thought the same thing. Ditto here, come on... get your hands dirty. I'm all for teaching people about computers (being a former college professor, now working in a public school district) as users' (and many techies[sic]) real knowledge of computers is amazingly low. But I think Debian's approach to installing leaves many users in the dust. Sure, we can say they're idiots who don't want to read/learn anything and we'd be perfectly correct -- but we still have to realize that we're leaving many users in the dust. I'd like to offer a more settling comment. Getting a driver's license is somewhat easy. Driving well is a challenge for a great number of people (I thought all cars were required to have working turn signals, but I guess I may be wrong). Driving in Formula or Stock Car races is something not everyone wants or is able to do. Debian is a sleek well maintained piece of Linux. Sure, you can have an engine blow (woody libc), but all in all, it is IMHO the best. If a person is going to install linux (install, not necessarily use), I believe that they should UNDERSTAND what they are doing, and why. If they are installing linux to get out of paying for a M$ product, then my suggestion is to quit being a *^$#*^ and fork over the loot to Bill. When Microsoft purchases RedHat and delivers MSLinux, then those people can get there way and do an install without thinking, and thanks to GPL, they won't be committing software piracy. I'm ready for my flames now, Brooks
Re: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation
whoever thinks dlinux is a tough install should be pointed to http://www.rocklinux.org. ...they'll really have _fun_. muhahaha. (i'm sticking w/ dlinux, thank you.) later. bentley taylor. // Alec Smith wrote: I must say that I find the constant reviews and comments that say Debian is hard to install somewhat entertaining. When I first installed Debian (Hamm), I found the installation fairly simple. Overall, I prefer Debian's installation procedures when compared to those of another distribution from North Carolina. While that other distribution always seems fairly rigid, I find that Debian gives me some level of freedom to install what I want, and ONLY what I want. What might be hard to a new user is final system configuration and tweaks. (Hey, any good sysadmin makes a lot of changes under /etc, right?) This isn't a problem unique to Debian, but to all Linux distributions. There are tools which make some of these tweaks easier -- If you can find the right tool. On the other hand, Windows is easy for many user since everything (debatable) they need is located in one Control Panel. Alec On Wed, 4 Oct 2000, Randy Edwards wrote: Has anyone seen Joe Barr's article in LinuxWorld at http://www.linuxworld.com/linuxworld/lw-2000-09/lw-09-vcontrol_2.html? I was struck by the article in a number of ways. I think it's sad that an experienced user like him couldn't install Debian (sad being the knock goes against him -- it ain't rocket science), but on the other hand, his reactions are *typical* of what I've seen when I try to have new users install Debian (so I can't knock him I guess). I've fallen into the mode that I now give new users the free Storm Linux CD, have them install that and get comfortable with GNU/Linux, and then tell them to apt up to a full Debian system. I'd love to give them a pure Debian install, but after seeing people fail on it again and again (I'll ignore topics of intelligence in the general user population:-), unless I'm there to walk them through it I know they're bound to fall on their face. Anyone else have any thoughts on this article? -- Regards, | SAT practice quiz: Microsoft is to software as ... .|Answer: McDonalds is to gourmet cooking. Randy| | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.golgotha.net -- Unsubscribe? mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] /dev/null -- Unsubscribe? mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] /dev/null
Re: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation
Brooks R. Robinson wrote: If the author is not able in configuring gpm or X he probably shouldn't write articles for linuxworld.com I thought the same thing. Ditto here, come on... get your hands dirty. I'd like to offer a more settling comment. Getting a driver's license is somewhat easy. Driving well is a challenge for a great number of people (I thought all cars were required to have working turn signals, but I guess I may be wrong). it's against the law to use 'em colorado. //
Re: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation
Randy Edwards [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/04/00 11:28AM Has anyone seen Joe Barr's article in LinuxWorld at http://www.linuxworld.com/linuxworld/lw-2000-09/lw-09-vcontrol_2.html? And if one is not able to wrap long lines, he probably should not write to this list. ;) From your headers: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.5.3 So use more wise mailer :) E.g. mutt has no problems with long lines. I am sorry for that. Me too. -- Alexey Vyskubov (at home) Hi! I'm a .signature virus! Copy me into your ~/.signature to help me spread!
Re: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation
On Wed, 4 Oct 2000, Randy Edwards wrote: Has anyone seen Joe Barr's article in LinuxWorld at http://www.linuxworld.com/linuxworld/lw-2000-09/lw-09-vcontrol_2.html? Regrettably. Anyone else have any thoughts on this article? More than a couple: 1) 2.2's a huuuge improvement over earlier incarnations of Deb., certainly in terms of installation over the 'net. Great and detailed instructions on the process. Didn't even have too much difficulty with the g-d bootdisks that everyone seems to have been bitching about. 2) Lots of the probs w/ 2.2 revolve around X, mouse, etc. X configuration is usually a troublespot w/out something snazzy like Lizard, YaST/Sax, whathaveyou. X is absolutely inconsistent in terms of performance, and the DM's (desktop managers that act like dungeon masters) are a disgrace. Neither of these is Debian's fault per se, but each package's project team. Nor is either essential to secure and stable running of Debian. 3) If the reviewer had been a newbie, the complaints might have been forgivable. Deb is not (yet) for newbies. It's getting there, though. All this will appear in the December issue of Linux Journal, barring disaster. 8) I switched *to* Debian because it was easy to install online. SAT practice quiz: Microsoft is to software as ... Answer: McDonalds is to gourmet cooking. Nice .sig file! 8) Alpha
Re: Article: Debian's Daunting Installation
As a Debian newbie I have to say that the worst thing about Debian was dselect. It seemed to be a confusing morass. Once I got a workable system it was great, and I was impressed by how easy it was to go from slink to potato, but getting started was a bear. Allan __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/
