Re: apt upgrade in buster is confused

[Andy Smith]

Hi,

On Mon, Jul 24, 2023 at 01:35:49PM -0700, Scott Edwards wrote:
> https://paste.debian.net/1286823/
> 
> I just want to upgrade to stable, but I'm stuck here

buster is Debian 10. stable is Debian 12. If you are trying to
upgrade buster to stable, you are making a mistake as you are not
supposed to skip releases. However from the package versions in your
paste I am guessing you meant buster to oldstable (11, bullseye).

Can you confirm you have read the release notes for Debian 11,
specifically the section on upgrading from Debian 10?


https://www.debian.org/releases/oldstable/amd64/release-notes/ch-upgrading.en.html

because if you have, then I do not understand why you aren't
following the documented steps, which are in part:

# apt update
# apt upgrade --without-new-pkgs
# apt full-upgrade

Cheers,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: apt upgrade in buster is confused

[Charles Curley]

On Mon, 24 Jul 2023 13:35:49 -0700
Scott Edwards  wrote:

> https://paste.debian.net/1286823/
> 
> I just want to upgrade to stable, but I'm stuck here

Stuck where? What instructions did you follow. Did you modify
/etc/apt/sources.list? Did you run "apt update" before "apt upgrade"?

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

Re: apt upgrade in buster is confused

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Mon, Jul 24, 2023 at 4:36 PM Scott Edwards  wrote:
>
> https://paste.debian.net/1286823/
>
> I just want to upgrade to stable, but I'm stuck here

Run 'apt-get update' first, and then 'apt-get upgrade'.

If Apt-get fails, then try Aptitude. Aptitude has a better solver, and
can often come up with a plan to accomplish an upgrade when Apt or
Apt-get cannot.

Jeff

apt upgrade in buster is confused

[Scott Edwards]

https://paste.debian.net/1286823/

I just want to upgrade to stable, but I'm stuck here

Re: kmail - mailadresse and name confused

[Tixy]

On Wed, 2020-08-19 at 21:55 +0200, Hans wrote:
> Answer myself: There is ~/.config/kmailrc, which got the known mailaddresses 
> with names. However, when I delete them in this file and restart kmail, the 
> mail addresses I sent to in the past. are not forgotten. So there is no 
> change 
> in the behavour. 
> 
> This led me to the conclusion, that these information must be stored 
> somewhwere else.

I'm guessing here as I don't use kmail, but have you looked in
~/.cache ?

Re: kmail - mailadresse and name confused

[Hans]

Answer myself: There is ~/.config/kmailrc, which got the known mailaddresses 
with names. However, when I delete them in this file and restart kmail, the 
mail addresses I sent to in the past. are not forgotten. So there is no change 
in the behavour. 

This led me to the conclusion, that these information must be stored 
somewhwere else.


> Yes, I got a newer one. Kmail2 in debian/testing. And sadly - there is no
> kmailrc any more. I know about that file, but looks like it is needed no
> more. I am not sure, I believe, this is since the introduction of akonadi.
> 
> Best
> 
> Hans



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Re: kmail - mailadresse and name confused

[Hans]

> In my older version of kmail (on Wheezy -- I'd expect your using a newer
> version) there is a section (essentially a cache) of Recent Addresses in
> /.kde/share/config/kmailrc.
> 
> If you have the same file, if you go in and edit those addresses that should
> fix the problem.

Yes, I got a newer one. Kmail2 in debian/testing. And sadly - there is no 
kmailrc any more. I know about that file, but looks like it is needed no more. 
I am not sure, I believe, this is since the introduction of akonadi.

Best

Hans

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Re: kmail - mailadresse and name confused

[rhkramer]

On Wednesday, August 19, 2020 05:58:53 AM Hans wrote:
> Hi folks,
> 
> somehow in kmail the mailadresse and the name are confused. When I want to
> write a mail, by typing the mailadresse is intelligently fullfilled, but
> the belonging name is not correctly added. Also on most mailadresses, I
> get the same name added (guess, there was never a name, so it is added
> some default).
> 
> I believe, this might be a caching thing.
> 
> This happened, when I synced ~/.kde/share/apps/kmail/mail/ between two
> computers with (the same version) of kmail.
> 
> Is there any way, especially an easy way, to get this corrected?
> 
> I also checked kadressbook, here all the names / mailadresses are fine!

In my older version of kmail (on Wheezy -- I'd expect your using a newer 
version) there is a section (essentially a cache) of Recent Addresses in 
/.kde/share/config/kmailrc.

If you have the same file, if you go in and edit those addresses that should 
fix 
the problem.

kmail - mailadresse and name confused

[Hans]

Hi folks, 

somehow in kmail the mailadresse and the name are confused. When I want to 
write a mail, by typing the mailadresse is intelligently fullfilled, but the 
belonging name is not correctly added. Also on most mailadresses, I get the 
same name added (guess, there was never a name, so it is added some default).

I believe, this might be a caching thing.

This happened, when I synced ~/.kde/share/apps/kmail/mail/ between two 
computers with (the same version) of kmail.

Is there any way, especially an easy way, to get this corrected?

I also checked kadressbook, here all the names / mailadresses are fine!

Best regards

Hans

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Re: confused, seems to be my normal state

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Mi, 18 sep 19, 12:20:43, Gene Heskett wrote:
> 
> It is, and the makers lie a lot, taking advantage of the buffering to get 
> thier 100 MBs rating for small writes. For gigabyte transfers I often 
> see sub 20 MB/S toward the end. But you may want to steer clear of the 
> 64GB+ cards, exfat is creeping into the sdhc arena, and I either have a 
> defective NEW PNY 64GB, or this stretch install can't touch it because 
> its exfat.  I bought 2 recently, same exact part number, slightly 
> different card gfx, the 85 meg rated one doesn't mention exfat, works, 
> the 100 MB/S rated one mentions exfat and is untouchable.

exFAT is just a filesystem, the standard partitioning/formating tools 
will be able to replace it without issue if the hardware works.

Your issues are more likely to be hardware related.

Do make sure you are using a recent enough card reader for the capacity 
of the cards and it's also properly connected / powered (i.e. not 
through your defective USB hub you discovered at some point).

Of course, the card itself may just be defective ;)

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser


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Re: confused, seems to be my normal state

[ghe]

On 9/17/19 4:17 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

> I'd luv to give it a try, since I've never tried it, but unpacking the 
> NOOBS to an sd card seems to be a secret, so what linux command will 
> unpack the .zip and put it on the card?

Attached is the instruction file I wrote for myself because the process
is a bit complex for me to remember (it says 3B+, but it's the same for
a 4, IIRC). I hope it makes some sense to you.

If not, you need but speak...

-- 
Glenn English
NOOBS 3B+ INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS

1. Insert an SD card that is 8GB or greater in size into your computer.
2. Format the SD card using the platform-specific instructions below:
   Linux
  i. We recommend using gparted (or the command line version parted)
  ii. Create a MSDOS partition tabls and single FAT32 partition. A 64G card 
works fine.
  iii. Mount the SD card partition -- on /mnt.
3. Unzip the NOOBS data (files and dirs) into a dir on the Linux disk (sudo 
unzip 2009-08-07.NOOBS_v3_2_0.zip -d unzipped/ -- for example).
4. Move into the dir with the NOOBS data. Copy the data from the Linux dir to 
the partition (cd unzipped ; sudo cp -rv * /mnt)
  on the SD card. Just all the files and dirs. (cp -r * /mnt). Umount the 
SD card (sudo umount /mnt).
5. Insert the SD card into your Pi and connect the power supply, etc.

Your Pi will now boot into NOOBS and should display a list of operating systems 
that you can choose to install.
If your display remains blank, you should select the correct output mode for 
your display by pressing one of 
   the following number keys on your keyboard:
1. HDMI mode - this is the default display mode.
2. HDMI safe mode - select this mode if you are using the HDMI connector and 
cannot see anything on screen when the Pi has booted.
3. Composite PAL mode - select either this mode or composite NTSC mode if you 
are using the composite RCA video connector.
4. Composite NTSC mode

If you are still having difficulties after following these instructions, then 
please visit the Raspberry Pi 
   Forums (http://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/) for support.

Follow the directions. Be sure to set to US in the little window at the bottom.

Changing to XFCE from LXDE
   sudo apt-get install xfce4 xfce4-goodies
   sudo dpkg --get-selections | grep "^lx" or apt-cache show lxde
   remove all of them
   Replace lxde (? -- the login window) with slim.
   
   Reboot
   
   sudo apt-get autoremove && sudo apt-get autoclean

Install Firefox, Webmin, an email client, etc.

Re: confused, seems to be my normal state

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 19 September 2019 03:59:24 Jonas Smedegaard wrote:

> Quoting Gene Heskett (2019-09-18 21:19:45)
>
> > On Wednesday 18 September 2019 12:58:25 Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> > > Quoting Gene Heskett (2019-09-18 18:20:43)
> > >
> > > > On Wednesday 18 September 2019 11:36:41 John Hasler wrote:
> > > > > Jonas writes:
> > > > > > Please demonstrate just one single example of dd being
> > > > > > faster than cp to transfer a full raw image to a raw device!
> > > > >
> > > > > On modern systems you would probably need to be doing terabyte
> > > > > transfers between disks on the same machine.  Back in the days
> > > > > when a megabyte was a lot dd was *much* faster.
> > > > >
> > > > > On an SD card I think that the write speed of the card is
> > > > > probably the limiting factor.
> > > >
> > > > It is, and the makers lie a lot, taking advantage of the
> > > > buffering to get thier 100 MBs rating for small writes. For
> > > > gigabyte transfers I often see sub 20 MB/S toward the end. But
> > > > you may want to steer clear of the 64GB+ cards, exfat is
> > > > creeping into the sdhc arena, and I either have a defective NEW
> > > > PNY 64GB, or this stretch install can't touch it because its
> > > > exfat.  I bought 2 recently, same exact part number, slightly
> > > > different card gfx, the 85 meg rated one doesn't mention exfat,
> > > > works, the 100 MB/S rated one mentions exfat and is untouchable.
> > >
> > > Regarding quality of SD cards, I trust advices from Thomas Kaiser.
> > >
> > > Here's his advice on which brands to trust:
> > > > Only a few vendors on this planet run NAND flash memory fabs,
> > > > only a few companies produce flash memory controllers and have
> > > > the necessary know-how in house. And only a few combine their
> > > > own NAND flash with their own controllers to their own retail
> > > > products. That's the simple reason why at least I only buy SD
> > > > cards from these 4 brands: Samsung, SanDisk, Toshiba, Transcend
> > >
> > > Above quote is from
> > > https://forum.armbian.com/topic/954-sd-card-performance/page/3/?ta
> > >b=comments#comment-49811 which is linked from front page intro to
> > > that thread - as part of this more general advice + warning not to
> > > waste time reading the whole
> > >
> > > thread:
> > > > Warning: This whole thread is only about historical information
> > > > now since it's 2018 and we can buy inexpensive and great
> > > > performing A1 rated SD cards in the meantime. Buying anything
> > > > else is a mistake so directly jump to the end of the thread for
> > > > performance numbers and recommendations.
> > >
> > > On a related note, here's Kaiser's more detailed notes on A1/A2
> > > rating:
> > > https://github.com/ThomasKaiser/Knowledge/blob/master/articles/A1_
> > >and_A2_rated_SD_cards.md
> >
> > That also seems to be somewhat dated.  And rather Sandisk promoting.
>
> No, quotes further up promotes brands closest to factories, and the
> article closes above promotes A1/A2 labeling which is brand-agnostic
> (yes, it proves its point by comparing cards from a single brand but
> that's besides the point).
>
> > So I bought another to see if they were still as bad as a year ago.
>
> Which brand and model? Did it have either "A1" or "A2" printed on it?

SanDisk A1 10, ImageMate microSDXC UHS-1 64gb, UP TO 100 MB/s,
haven't opened it yet. Much lower profile packaging than SamSung or PNY, 
will need a really sharp knife to liberate the actual card.

> What are the comparable results from same tests? They are linked from
> the article:
> https://github.com/ThomasKaiser/sbc-bench/blob/master/sd-card-bench.sh

That script looks to be pretty self destructive, but it might be 
interesting to kill the card just to see how long it lasts, but its $12 
a card to find out.  So I think I put the rpi4 raspbian buster on it 
when the heat sink and adapters arrive. Might even have raspbian buster 
10.2 by then. ISTR you have to be able to run raspi-config & check the 
SSH box, as its (ssh) not run by default. So its not possible to 
navigate that unless someone knows what to do to it in the card reader 
to achieve the SSH function at bootup. Chicken vs egg problem from my 
point of view.

But it might be a way to access it like I can when the older rpi3b 
stretch is plugged in.

Curiosity is killing the cat. I *think* the gpio diffs are baked into the 
driver, so if I can install the stretch deb of linuxcnc I've built, then 
swap the new spi driver in, make the test cable, hook up a half blown 
mesa 7i90HD and see if it runs.  Its the output side of the card thats 
blown.

That will take some fooling around, which takes time. It might be that 
busters use of wayland is going to be a problem so we'll try this on 
stretch first. Linuxcnc's gfx aren't such that I can't export its screen 
to this machine with an ssh -Y login. But this won't until I rewrite 
that card with a RealtimePi kernel.  Always somthing.

Thanks Jonas

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There 

Re: confused, seems to be my normal state

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting Gene Heskett (2019-09-18 21:19:45)
> On Wednesday 18 September 2019 12:58:25 Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> 
> > Quoting Gene Heskett (2019-09-18 18:20:43)
> >
> > > On Wednesday 18 September 2019 11:36:41 John Hasler wrote:
> > > > Jonas writes:
> > > > > Please demonstrate just one single example of dd being faster 
> > > > > than cp to transfer a full raw image to a raw device!
> > > >
> > > > On modern systems you would probably need to be doing terabyte 
> > > > transfers between disks on the same machine.  Back in the days 
> > > > when a megabyte was a lot dd was *much* faster.
> > > >
> > > > On an SD card I think that the write speed of the card is 
> > > > probably the limiting factor.
> > >
> > > It is, and the makers lie a lot, taking advantage of the buffering 
> > > to get thier 100 MBs rating for small writes. For gigabyte 
> > > transfers I often see sub 20 MB/S toward the end. But you may want 
> > > to steer clear of the 64GB+ cards, exfat is creeping into the sdhc 
> > > arena, and I either have a defective NEW PNY 64GB, or this stretch 
> > > install can't touch it because its exfat.  I bought 2 recently, 
> > > same exact part number, slightly different card gfx, the 85 meg 
> > > rated one doesn't mention exfat, works, the 100 MB/S rated one 
> > > mentions exfat and is untouchable.
> >
> > Regarding quality of SD cards, I trust advices from Thomas Kaiser.
> >
> > Here's his advice on which brands to trust:
> > > Only a few vendors on this planet run NAND flash memory fabs, only 
> > > a few companies produce flash memory controllers and have the 
> > > necessary know-how in house. And only a few combine their own NAND 
> > > flash with their own controllers to their own retail products. 
> > > That's the simple reason why at least I only buy SD cards from 
> > > these 4 brands: Samsung, SanDisk, Toshiba, Transcend
> >
> > Above quote is from 
> > https://forum.armbian.com/topic/954-sd-card-performance/page/3/?tab=comments#comment-49811
> >  
> > which is linked from front page intro to that thread - as part of 
> > this more general advice + warning not to waste time reading the 
> > whole
> >
> > thread:
> > > Warning: This whole thread is only about historical information 
> > > now since it's 2018 and we can buy inexpensive and great 
> > > performing A1 rated SD cards in the meantime. Buying anything else 
> > > is a mistake so directly jump to the end of the thread for 
> > > performance numbers and recommendations.
> >
> > On a related note, here's Kaiser's more detailed notes on A1/A2 
> > rating: 
> > https://github.com/ThomasKaiser/Knowledge/blob/master/articles/A1_and_A2_rated_SD_cards.md
> >
> That also seems to be somewhat dated.  And rather Sandisk promoting.

No, quotes further up promotes brands closest to factories, and the 
article closes above promotes A1/A2 labeling which is brand-agnostic 
(yes, it proves its point by comparing cards from a single brand but 
that's besides the point).

> So I bought another to see if they were still as bad as a year ago.

Which brand and model? Did it have either "A1" or "A2" printed on it?

What are the comparable results from same tests? They are linked from 
the article: 
https://github.com/ThomasKaiser/sbc-bench/blob/master/sd-card-bench.sh


 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private


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Re: confused, seems to be my normal state

[Joe]

On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 21:39:23 -0500
John Hasler  wrote:

> Joe writes:
> > What would be a real pain is actually accessing HDMI signals while
> > the thing is running. It's no good just looking into a connector,
> > it needs to see something hanging on the end before it will power
> > up and activate.  
> 
> Well of course he'd have to build a breakout box.  Trickier than RS232
> but straightforward enough as long as you know how to deal with UHF
> and impedance matching as Gene clearly does.
> 

It's still a pain. Almost the only available HDMI plugs are PCB mount,
and a real nuisance to solder wires to. I have made a couple of (very
short) HDMI cables by hand.

Easier to buy another cable and Pi.

> An rf voltmeter would suffice to determine if the lines are waggling.

-- 
Joe

Re: confused, seems to be my normal state

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 18 September 2019 22:39:23 John Hasler wrote:

> Joe writes:
> > What would be a real pain is actually accessing HDMI signals while
> > the thing is running. It's no good just looking into a connector, it
> > needs to see something hanging on the end before it will power up
> > and activate.
>
> Well of course he'd have to build a breakout box.  Trickier than RS232
> but straightforward enough as long as you know how to deal with UHF
> and impedance matching as Gene clearly does.
>
> An rf voltmeter would suffice to determine if the lines are waggling.

Maybe, but I've been looking at a scope with a probe in one hand since 
1951, and my eyes can make sense, see an error and recognize it as such, 
sometimes before the circuit actually mis-behaves. Such single ended 
circuits have a worst enemy, I call it ground bounce, and it can totally 
destroy a single ended circuits signal integrity, or even blow chips if 
brutal enough. But I also understand that hdmi is low voltage 
differential, and I'm not as well eyeball trained on those. 

But I can always recognize an echo if the scope is fast enough. Sometimes 
you have to do a bit of math (my poor suite because in actual fact my 
formal education is to the 8th grade only) to confirm the distortion you 
see is an echo though that gets difficult when the cable is well under a 
foot long and the echo's fundamentel delay is closing in on the scopes 
bandwidth.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: confused, seems to be my normal state

[John Hasler]

Joe writes:
> What would be a real pain is actually accessing HDMI signals while the
> thing is running. It's no good just looking into a connector, it needs
> to see something hanging on the end before it will power up and
> activate.

Well of course he'd have to build a breakout box.  Trickier than RS232
but straightforward enough as long as you know how to deal with UHF and
impedance matching as Gene clearly does.

An rf voltmeter would suffice to determine if the lines are waggling.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: confused, seems to be my normal state

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 18 September 2019 17:49:49 deloptes wrote:

> Gene Heskett wrote:
> > 2 possible differences. Its not powered correctly when powered from
> > gpio pin 6=gnd, and 2=5.11 volts. A pi3b has been running that way
> > for 2+ years and the gpio is said to be 100% pi3b compatible.  Argue
> > with me on that, this rp-4 came with no docs.
>
> Yes but we are already almost two decades in the 21 century
> https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/hardware/raspberrypi/bcm2711
>/rpi_DATA_2711_1p0_preliminary.pdf
> https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/usage/gpio/
>
> and I am sure if you have the time to write here, you also have the
> time to check the online documentation.
>
> It says that you can power it up with the pins (as before). I just
> wonder if the current you supply is sufficient. Also it says that
> powering PI via GPIO bypasses all protection.
>
> Here the complete list, if someone is wondering what is needed to
> bring RPI4B up
>
> RPi4 (check)
> Box Joy-IT with active cooling (not yet)
> microSD >=4GB (64GB)
> USB charger 3A/5V (5A-5V)
> USB cable (USB-A to USB-C) (what for)
> HDMI cable (HDMI-HDMI micro highspeed) (have several, all std 
hdmi ends)

Add 4 port usb3 hub, 2 60GB SSD's and 2 dongles for wireless keyboard and 
mouse)

That should cover it.  No heat sink, but its not doing anything, I can 
touch the SOC top, hot but not dangerously so.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: confused, seems to be my normal state

[deloptes]

Gene Heskett wrote:

> 2 possible differences. Its not powered correctly when powered from gpio
> pin 6=gnd, and 2=5.11 volts. A pi3b has been running that way for 2+
> years and the gpio is said to be 100% pi3b compatible.  Argue with me on
> that, this rp-4 came with no docs.

Yes but we are already almost two decades in the 21 century 
https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/hardware/raspberrypi/bcm2711/rpi_DATA_2711_1p0_preliminary.pdf
https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/usage/gpio/

and I am sure if you have the time to write here, you also have the time to
check the online documentation.

It says that you can power it up with the pins (as before). I just wonder if
the current you supply is sufficient. Also it says that powering PI via
GPIO bypasses all protection.

Here the complete list, if someone is wondering what is needed to bring
RPI4B up

RPi4
Box Joy-IT with active cooling
microSD >=4GB
USB charger 3A/5V 
USB cable (USB-A to USB-C)
HDMI cable (HDMI-HDMI micro highspeed) 

Re: confused, seems to be my normal state

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 18 September 2019 16:57:14 Thomas D Dial wrote:

> On Wed, 2019-09-18 at 09:04 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Wednesday 18 September 2019 07:46:38 Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > On Tuesday 17 September 2019 22:05:28 David wrote:
> > > > On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 at 08:17, Gene Heskett
> > > > 
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > > > > On Tuesday 17 September 2019 15:07:30 ghe wrote:
> > > > > > On 9/17/19 11:01 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > > > > > And that results in exactly the same effect, partitiuon 1
> > > > > > > is an iso9660 image, and I don't believe the rpi-3b
> > > > > > > supports
> >
> > that
> >
> > > > > > > for a boot medium. dos/fat32 only I believe. Obviously I
> > > > > > > got those images from the wrong place in the debian file
> >
> > system.
> >
> > > > > > > So I need to remove these, but where do I get the correct
> > > > > > > versions?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > From https://www.raspberrypi.org/downloads/ ?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Use the damn NOOBS and quit fighting with your Pi(s)! NOOBS
> > > > > > takes a while, and it doesn't install things the way you
> > > > > > want them to be, but it does work -- you end up looking at a
> >
> > working
> >
> > > > > > Buster desktop. No confusion or cardio stress involved.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There are a lot of recipes on the web to make things all
> >
> > better.
> >
> > > > > > And 'rm' works pretty well, too.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'd luv to give it a try, since I've never tried it, but
> >
> > unpacking
> >
> > > > > the NOOBS to an sd card seems to be a secret, so what linux
> > > > > command will unpack the .zip and put it on the card?
> > > >
> > > > Hi Gene,
> > > >
> > > > I suggest a first step is just get your Pi 4 running
> > > > the simplest way possible. Just to see it working first
> > > > before starting to customising it in any way.
> > > >
> > > > You don't need NOOBS, just Raspbian.
> > > > Note: Raspbian is not Debian.
> > > >
> > > > Just do this:
> > > >
> > > > 1) get the zipped image
> > > > $ curl -L -o raspbian_latest.zip
> > > > downloads.raspberrypi.org/raspbian_latest
> > > >
> > > > 2) verify the download
> > > > $ sha256sum raspbian_latest.zip
> > > > 6a1a5f20329e580d5161a0255b3d4163db6f56c3997e1c3b36bdd51140bd768e
> > > >
> > > > 3) write the SD card
> > > > (replace my /dev/sd_ with your SD card device,
> > > > without any partition number):
> > > >
> > > > # unzip -p raspbian_latest.zip | dd bs=4M of=/dev/sd_
> > > > status=progress conv=fsync
> > >
> > > This last is what I was looking for, thank you, and I'll give it
> > > all
> >
> > a
> >
> > > shot later today. In fact, card is written.
> > >
> > > > and that will produce a SD card that
> > > > will boot a Raspberry Pi 4 hardware into a Raspbian desktop.
> > >
> > > If I can get video out of it, I am about convinced that the only
> > > micro-hdmi adapter I have is a $16 dud I got from Wallmart.
> > >
> > > Banggood says 2 more adapters and the big, whole top heat sink
> > > won't be here till around the 3rd.
> > >
> > > So if this doesn't work, I'll just shelve it till then.  Maybe
> > > forever, I'm about burned out on this. I've written several cards,
> > > without ever seeing a single byte of video on a monitor that works
> > > fine when driven by a pi-3b.
> > >
> > > 2 possible differences. Its not powered correctly when powered
> > > from gpio pin 6=gnd, and 2=5.11 volts. A pi3b has been running
> > > that way
> >
> > for
> >
> > > 2+ years and the gpio is said to be 100% pi3b compatible.  Argue
> >
> > with
> >
> > > me on that, this rp-4 came with no docs.
> > >
> > > I do not have a psu with an OTG connector.  Or this $16 wallmart
> > > adapter is duff.
> > >
> > > Does anyone have some typical scope waveforms pix that would show
> >
> > what
> >
> > > a working hdmi socket has for signals?
> > >
> > > Now its morning locally, time go see about some caffiene for me
> > > and the missus. Thanks all.
> >
> > Now I have a puzzle, that rpi-4 is powered and is on my local net,
> > was at
> > a duplicate address because the card was at one time in the rpi-3,
> > but a
> > login from here didn't look like I was looking at the same machine,
> > so
> > from here I went trolling thru proc and discovered it was an
> > rpi-4!!!
> >
> > So I changed its ipv4 address, hostname, domainname, added itself at
> > its
> > new address to its /etc/hosts file and rebooted it. Added it to my
> > hosts
> > file and ssh -Y pi@rpi4, fixed my known_hosts file, and I am now
> > logged
> > into it at its new address.  A cat /etc/issue says its running a
> > raspbian 9 (stretch).
> >
> > And there's still no video on the monitor its feeding. So I am
> > encouraged, but where the heck is the video?
>
> The instructions that came with mine insisted that the HDMI cable be
> attached using the HDMI0 port, on the left looking at them with the
> board top up. The IDs are stenciled on the top of the board but the
> letters are about 1/32" high.
>
Which is how I have it.

> If that's 

Re: confused, seems to be my normal state

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 18 September 2019 16:09:48 Joe wrote:

> On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 10:20:22 -0500
>
> John Hasler  wrote:
> > Your scope could show you eye patterns but that's probably of little
> > use.  You need to look at all three data channels and the clock
> > (these are differential so you need eight inputs) and trigger on
> > patterns. otherwise all you will learn is that the interface is
> > clocking.
>
> I suspect that if all eight lines are waggling, that's good enough.
>
> By the way, I have a 40MHz scope whose response extends far enough to
> show a thickening of the trace on 1.5Gb/s signals, which is good
> enough for presence/absence.
>
> What would be a real pain is actually accessing HDMI signals while the
> thing is running. It's no good just looking into a connector, it needs
> to see something hanging on the end before it will power up and
> activate.

IOW, disconnecting and looking into the connector with a scope probe is a 
waste of time. HDMI is post my time in the broadcast business by 15 
years, so I know little about it from my former $dayjob. I had the 
obligatory turkey dinner and collected the Rolex in the middle of 2002, 
haveing sat in that chair, when I had time to sit, since Oct 1984 and 
monitors were just gettiing smart enough to tell the drivers what they 
needed, so I had suspected as much.

Thank you Joe.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: confused, seems to be my normal state

[Thomas D Dial]

On Wed, 2019-09-18 at 09:04 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Wednesday 18 September 2019 07:46:38 Gene Heskett wrote:
> 
> > On Tuesday 17 September 2019 22:05:28 David wrote:
> > > On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 at 08:17, Gene Heskett 
> >
> > wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday 17 September 2019 15:07:30 ghe wrote:
> > > > > On 9/17/19 11:01 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > > > > And that results in exactly the same effect, partitiuon 1 is
> > > > > > an iso9660 image, and I don't believe the rpi-3b supports
> that
> > > > > > for a boot medium. dos/fat32 only I believe. Obviously I got
> > > > > > those images from the wrong place in the debian file
> system. 
> > > > > > So I need to remove these, but where do I get the correct
> > > > > > versions?
> > > > >
> > > > > From https://www.raspberrypi.org/downloads/ ?
> > > > >
> > > > > Use the damn NOOBS and quit fighting with your Pi(s)! NOOBS
> > > > > takes a while, and it doesn't install things the way you want
> > > > > them to be, but it does work -- you end up looking at a
> working
> > > > > Buster desktop. No confusion or cardio stress involved.
> > > > >
> > > > > There are a lot of recipes on the web to make things all
> better.
> > > > > And 'rm' works pretty well, too.
> > > >
> > > > I'd luv to give it a try, since I've never tried it, but
> unpacking
> > > > the NOOBS to an sd card seems to be a secret, so what linux
> > > > command will unpack the .zip and put it on the card?
> > >
> > > Hi Gene,
> > >
> > > I suggest a first step is just get your Pi 4 running
> > > the simplest way possible. Just to see it working first
> > > before starting to customising it in any way.
> > >
> > > You don't need NOOBS, just Raspbian.
> > > Note: Raspbian is not Debian.
> > >
> > > Just do this:
> > >
> > > 1) get the zipped image
> > > $ curl -L -o raspbian_latest.zip
> > > downloads.raspberrypi.org/raspbian_latest
> > >
> > > 2) verify the download
> > > $ sha256sum raspbian_latest.zip
> > > 6a1a5f20329e580d5161a0255b3d4163db6f56c3997e1c3b36bdd51140bd768e
> > >
> > > 3) write the SD card
> > > (replace my /dev/sd_ with your SD card device,
> > > without any partition number):
> > >
> > > # unzip -p raspbian_latest.zip | dd bs=4M of=/dev/sd_
> > > status=progress conv=fsync
> >
> > This last is what I was looking for, thank you, and I'll give it all
> a
> > shot later today. In fact, card is written.
> >
> > > and that will produce a SD card that
> > > will boot a Raspberry Pi 4 hardware into a Raspbian desktop.
> >
> > If I can get video out of it, I am about convinced that the only
> > micro-hdmi adapter I have is a $16 dud I got from Wallmart.
> >
> > Banggood says 2 more adapters and the big, whole top heat sink won't
> > be here till around the 3rd.
> >
> > So if this doesn't work, I'll just shelve it till then.  Maybe
> > forever, I'm about burned out on this. I've written several cards,
> > without ever seeing a single byte of video on a monitor that works
> > fine when driven by a pi-3b.
> >
> > 2 possible differences. Its not powered correctly when powered from
> > gpio pin 6=gnd, and 2=5.11 volts. A pi3b has been running that way
> for
> > 2+ years and the gpio is said to be 100% pi3b compatible.  Argue
> with
> > me on that, this rp-4 came with no docs.
> >
> > I do not have a psu with an OTG connector.  Or this $16 wallmart
> > adapter is duff.
> >
> > Does anyone have some typical scope waveforms pix that would show
> what
> > a working hdmi socket has for signals?
> >
> > Now its morning locally, time go see about some caffiene for me and
> > the missus. Thanks all.
> >
> Now I have a puzzle, that rpi-4 is powered and is on my local net, was
> at 
> a duplicate address because the card was at one time in the rpi-3, but
> a 
> login from here didn't look like I was looking at the same machine,
> so 
> from here I went trolling thru proc and discovered it was an rpi-4!!!
> 
> So I changed its ipv4 address, hostname, domainname, added itself at
> its 
> new address to its /etc/hosts file and rebooted it. Added it to my
> hosts 
> file and ssh -Y pi@rpi4, fixed my known_hosts file, and I am now
> logged 
> into it at its new address.  A cat /etc/issue says its running a 
> raspbian 9 (stretch).
> 
> And there's still no video on the monitor its feeding. So I am 
> encouraged, but where the heck is the video?

The instructions that came with mine insisted that the HDMI cable be
attached using the HDMI0 port, on the left looking at them with the
board top up. The IDs are stenciled on the top of the board but the
letters are about 1/32" high.

If that's the way you have it, I would suspect a defective cable or rpi
board.


Tom Dial

> 
> I've a C.E.T.'s typical test gear here, including a gigahertz
> sampling 
> scope, so test ideas welcomed from folks more rpi4 knowledgable than
> I.
> 
> And time to make more coffee.  Like Calahan's Bar, elixer of the
> gods, 
> but without the alcohol.
> 
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
> 
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> -- 
> "There are four 

Re: confused, seems to be my normal state

[Joe]

On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 10:20:22 -0500
John Hasler  wrote:

> Your scope could show you eye patterns but that's probably of little
> use.  You need to look at all three data channels and the clock (these
> are differential so you need eight inputs) and trigger on patterns.
> otherwise all you will learn is that the interface is clocking.

I suspect that if all eight lines are waggling, that's good enough.

By the way, I have a 40MHz scope whose response extends far enough to
show a thickening of the trace on 1.5Gb/s signals, which is good enough
for presence/absence.

What would be a real pain is actually accessing HDMI signals while the
thing is running. It's no good just looking into a connector, it needs
to see something hanging on the end before it will power up and
activate.

-- 
Joe

Re: confused, seems to be my normal state

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 18 September 2019 12:58:25 Jonas Smedegaard wrote:

> Quoting Gene Heskett (2019-09-18 18:20:43)
>
> > On Wednesday 18 September 2019 11:36:41 John Hasler wrote:
> > > Jonas writes:
> > > > Please demonstrate just one single example of dd being faster
> > > > than cp to transfer a full raw image to a raw device!
> > >
> > > On modern systems you would probably need to be doing terabyte
> > > transfers between disks on the same machine.  Back in the days
> > > when a megabyte was a lot dd was *much* faster.
> > >
> > > On an SD card I think that the write speed of the card is probably
> > > the limiting factor.
> >
> > It is, and the makers lie a lot, taking advantage of the buffering
> > to get thier 100 MBs rating for small writes. For gigabyte transfers
> > I often see sub 20 MB/S toward the end. But you may want to steer
> > clear of the 64GB+ cards, exfat is creeping into the sdhc arena, and
> > I either have a defective NEW PNY 64GB, or this stretch install
> > can't touch it because its exfat.  I bought 2 recently, same exact
> > part number, slightly different card gfx, the 85 meg rated one
> > doesn't mention exfat, works, the 100 MB/S rated one mentions exfat
> > and is untouchable.
>
> Regarding quality of SD cards, I trust advices from Thomas Kaiser.
>
> Here's his advice on which brands to trust:
> > Only a few vendors on this planet run NAND flash memory fabs, only a
> > few companies produce flash memory controllers and have the
> > necessary know-how in house. And only a few combine their own NAND
> > flash with their own controllers to their own retail products.
> > That's the simple reason why at least I only buy SD cards from these
> > 4 brands: Samsung, SanDisk, Toshiba, Transcend
>
> Above quote is from
> https://forum.armbian.com/topic/954-sd-card-performance/page/3/?tab=co
>mments#comment-49811 which is linked from front page intro to that
> thread - as part of this more general advice + warning not to waste
> time reading the whole
>
> thread:
> > Warning: This whole thread is only about historical information now
> > since it's 2018 and we can buy inexpensive and great performing A1
> > rated SD cards in the meantime. Buying anything else is a mistake so
> > directly jump to the end of the thread for performance numbers and
> > recommendations.
>
> On a related note, here's Kaiser's more detailed notes on A1/A2
> rating:
> https://github.com/ThomasKaiser/Knowledge/blob/master/articles/A1_and_
>A2_rated_SD_cards.md
>
That also seems to be somewhat dated.  And rather Sandisk promoting. So I 
bought another to see if they were still as bad as a year ago. About a 
buck cheaper than the other name brands. I don't have any left from the 
3 or 4 I did have, having destroyed the last 32GB in the after install 
update of about 300 pkgs.  So my preference has been not to buy any more 
SanDisk.

I was going to get another micro hdmi adapter but somebody bought the 
last one and its peg has been re-assigned to something else.  So I'm 
stuck playing over an ssh login till whenever.
>
>  - Jonas


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: confused, seems to be my normal state

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting Gene Heskett (2019-09-18 18:20:43)
> On Wednesday 18 September 2019 11:36:41 John Hasler wrote:
> 
> > Jonas writes:
> > > Please demonstrate just one single example of dd being faster than 
> > > cp to transfer a full raw image to a raw device!
> >
> > On modern systems you would probably need to be doing terabyte 
> > transfers between disks on the same machine.  Back in the days when 
> > a megabyte was a lot dd was *much* faster.
> >
> > On an SD card I think that the write speed of the card is probably 
> > the limiting factor.
> 
> It is, and the makers lie a lot, taking advantage of the buffering to 
> get thier 100 MBs rating for small writes. For gigabyte transfers I 
> often see sub 20 MB/S toward the end. But you may want to steer clear 
> of the 64GB+ cards, exfat is creeping into the sdhc arena, and I 
> either have a defective NEW PNY 64GB, or this stretch install can't 
> touch it because its exfat.  I bought 2 recently, same exact part 
> number, slightly different card gfx, the 85 meg rated one doesn't 
> mention exfat, works, the 100 MB/S rated one mentions exfat and is 
> untouchable.

Regarding quality of SD cards, I trust advices from Thomas Kaiser.

Here's his advice on which brands to trust:

> Only a few vendors on this planet run NAND flash memory fabs, only a 
> few companies produce flash memory controllers and have the necessary 
> know-how in house. And only a few combine their own NAND flash with 
> their own controllers to their own retail products. That's the simple 
> reason why at least I only buy SD cards from these 4 brands: Samsung, 
> SanDisk, Toshiba, Transcend

Above quote is from 
https://forum.armbian.com/topic/954-sd-card-performance/page/3/?tab=comments#comment-49811
 
which is linked from front page intro to that thread - as part of this 
more general advice + warning not to waste time reading the whole 
thread:

> Warning: This whole thread is only about historical information now 
> since it's 2018 and we can buy inexpensive and great performing A1 
> rated SD cards in the meantime. Buying anything else is a mistake so 
> directly jump to the end of the thread for performance numbers and 
> recommendations.

On a related note, here's Kaiser's more detailed notes on A1/A2 rating: 
https://github.com/ThomasKaiser/Knowledge/blob/master/articles/A1_and_A2_rated_SD_cards.md


 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

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Re: confused, seems to be my normal state

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 18 September 2019 11:36:41 John Hasler wrote:

> Jonas writes:
> > Please demonstrate just one single example of dd being faster than
> > cp to transfer a full raw image to a raw device!
>
> On modern systems you would probably need to be doing terabyte
> transfers between disks on the same machine.  Back in the days when a
> megabyte was a lot dd was *much* faster.
>
> On an SD card I think that the write speed of the card is probably the
> limiting factor.

It is, and the makers lie a lot, taking advantage of the buffering to get 
thier 100 MBs rating for small writes. For gigabyte transfers I often 
see sub 20 MB/S toward the end. But you may want to steer clear of the 
64GB+ cards, exfat is creeping into the sdhc arena, and I either have a 
defective NEW PNY 64GB, or this stretch install can't touch it because 
its exfat.  I bought 2 recently, same exact part number, slightly 
different card gfx, the 85 meg rated one doesn't mention exfat, works, 
the 100 MB/S rated one mentions exfat and is untouchable.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: confused, seems to be my normal state

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 18 September 2019 11:20:22 John Hasler wrote:

> Your scope could show you eye patterns but that's probably of little
> use.  You need to look at all three data channels and the clock (these
> are differential so you need eight inputs) and trigger on patterns.
> otherwise all you will learn is that the interface is clocking.
Given the present state, John, even that could be enlightening.

I took the card I had prepared out and swapped it for the card with 
raspbian stretch on it, and from the activity of the green led it is 
booting, but despite going out and dancing on the keyboard for about 5 
minutes, its not starting the ssh server, so I can't access it from 
here.  So I've swapped back to the raspbian stretch card, then looked up 
the man page for sysctl and rechanged the host and domain names, and 
rebooted to see if they stuck. This time they did stay as set, so thats 
one roadblock out of the way.

Next is add it to my /sshnet so I can move files 
into /sshnet/rpi4/home/pi's home dir. I have a copy of linuxcnc-master I 
built on the pi3 about 4 weeks back that dpkg should be able to install, 
its running on a stretch install on the rpi3 right now, at which time I 
should be able to test the newly re-written driver, after I hook up a 
partially blown mesa 7i90HD card for the driver to hunt for. For that, 
I'll need to make a 26 pin cable 2 or 3" long.  If I can see the mesa 
card init, you'll be able to hear the whoopee from there.  But that also 
implies the heat sink I don't have yet, there's no sinks on it now, nor 
do I have the video adapters, yet.

In the meantime  I'm giving this wallmart thing my best immitation of a 
Sam Elliot look of disbelief. But even if I grow a cookie duster that 
would likely get giggles from the audience. ;-)

One really fugly thought keeps drifting into view, and that is that the 
rpi4 needs a whole new video driver setup. In that event, the raspian 
buster 10.1 should be making nice, speedy video even while its booting.  
But its not.  Sigh...

Thanks John.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: confused, seems to be my normal state

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting John Hasler (2019-09-18 17:36:41)
> Jonas writes:
> > Please demonstrate just one single example of dd being faster than 
> > cp to transfer a full raw image to a raw device!
> 
> On modern systems you would probably need to be doing terabyte 
> transfers between disks on the same machine.  Back in the days when a 
> megabyte was a lot dd was *much* faster.
> 
> On an SD card I think that the write speed of the card is probably the 
> limiting factor.

Any idea why?


 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

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Re: confused, seems to be my normal state

[John Hasler]

Jonas writes:
> Please demonstrate just one single example of dd being faster than cp
> to transfer a full raw image to a raw device!

On modern systems you would probably need to be doing terabyte transfers
between disks on the same machine.  Back in the days when a megabyte was
a lot dd was *much* faster.

On an SD card I think that the write speed of the card is probably the
limiting factor.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: confused, seems to be my normal state

[John Hasler]

Your scope could show you eye patterns but that's probably of little
use.  You need to look at all three data channels and the clock (these
are differential so you need eight inputs) and trigger on patterns.
otherwise all you will learn is that the interface is clocking.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: confused, seems to be my normal state

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 18 September 2019 09:48:24 John Hasler wrote:

> Gene writes:
> > Does anyone have some typical scope waveforms pix that would show
> > what a working hdmi socket has for signals?
>
> All digital.  You need a logic analyzer.  I could have had one that
> would do the job for you at the Stout surplus sale last week for $20
> but I decided that I didn't need it.

I thought of that John, but the kit I have, a redpitaya + VNA, isn't fast 
enough for video. I'd imagine it would peter out at anything faster than 
10 mhz.  The VNA is nice, can draw smith charts in near real time at up 
to 60 mhz, so an AM radio station tower tuneup at 1 Mhz is pretty easy.  
That VNA s what I bought it for.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: confused, seems to be my normal state

[tomas]

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 08:38:11AM -0500, John Hasler wrote:
> Jonas writes:
> > Essentiall you want to copy all raw content onto the raw device.
> 
> > This works too (and not only with specially crafted zip files):
> 
> >  $ unzip foo.zip
> >  $ su -c "cp image-unpacked-from-foo-zip /dev/sd_"
> 
> I'd add a sync command to be sure all buffers are flushed.

Definitely. And wait until it comes back. Or use "oflags=direct" with
your dd.

Cheers
-- tomás


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Re: confused, seems to be my normal state

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting John Hasler (2019-09-18 15:38:11)
> Jonas writes:
> > Essentiall you want to copy all raw content onto the raw device.
> 
> > This works too (and not only with specially crafted zip files):
> 
> >  $ unzip foo.zip
> >  $ su -c "cp image-unpacked-from-foo-zip /dev/sd_"
> 
> I'd add a sync command to be sure all buffers are flushed.
> 
> > dd is *not* a better tool for this task - that's just false rumors.
> 
> dd is faster with the right options but that only matters with really
> large transfers, which this isn't.

Interesting, and new to me.

Please demonstrate just one single example of dd being faster than cp to 
transfer a full raw image to a raw device!

 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

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Re: confused, seems to be my normal state

[John Hasler]

Gene writes:
> Does anyone have some typical scope waveforms pix that would show what
> a working hdmi socket has for signals?

All digital.  You need a logic analyzer.  I could have had one that
would do the job for you at the Stout surplus sale last week for $20 but
I decided that I didn't need it.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: confused, seems to be my normal state

[John Hasler]

Jonas writes:
> Essentiall you want to copy all raw content onto the raw device.

> This works too (and not only with specially crafted zip files):

>  $ unzip foo.zip
>  $ su -c "cp image-unpacked-from-foo-zip /dev/sd_"

I'd add a sync command to be sure all buffers are flushed.

> dd is *not* a better tool for this task - that's just false rumors.

dd is faster with the right options but that only matters with really
large transfers, which this isn't.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: confused, seems to be my normal state

[tomas]

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 09:27:23AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:

[...]

> And my furniture/carpenter skills mean I have lots of those tools 
> available too, I build green and green style stuff, but the green & 
> green joints are carved by cnc milling machines running code I wrote. 
> Consistent joint fits are an admirable target.

Now imagine doing that with a bread knife. Doable, but... :-)

Cheers
-- t


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: confused, seems to be my normal state

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 18 September 2019 08:57:43 to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 02:42:21PM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> > Quoting Gene Heskett (2019-09-18 13:46:38)
> >
> > > On Tuesday 17 September 2019 22:05:28 David wrote:
> > > > On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 at 08:17, Gene Heskett
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > what linux command will unpack the .zip and put it on the
> > > > > card?
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > > > 3) write the SD card
> > > > (replace my /dev/sd_ with your SD card device,
> > > > without any partition number):
> > > >
> > > > # unzip -p raspbian_latest.zip | dd bs=4M of=/dev/sd_
> > > > status=progress conv=fsync
> > >
> > > This last is what I was looking for, thank you, and I'll give it
> > > all a shot later today. In fact, card is written.
> >
> > Essentiall you want to copy all raw content onto the raw device.
> >
> > This works too (and not only with specially crafted zip files):
> >
> >   $ unzip foo.zip
> >   $ su -c "cp image-unpacked-from-foo-zip /dev/sd_"
>
> Also spelt "zcat foo.zip > /dev/sd_" for those who don't want to
> leave a file around they have to delete later.
>
> > dd is *not* a better tool for this task - that's just false rumors.
>
> I don't know about "better", but it's the right tool for that job,
> affording you
>
> - unbuffered output (oflag=direct) for when you don't want
>   to wait for ages after dd has finished while your system
>   is flushing buffers (or worse, pull the stick/card out
>   while buffers are not flushed because you think copy is
>   ready, leading to funny results)
>
> - progress display (either by sending it an USR1 signal or
>   by stating "status=progress".
>
> There's a reason a carpenter's shop has more than one tool,
> but hey, if you insist, you can take out a screw with scissors.
>
And my furniture/carpenter skills mean I have lots of those tools 
available too, I build green and green style stuff, but the green & 
green joints are carved by cnc milling machines running code I wrote. 
Consistent joint fits are an admirable target.

> Cheers
> -- t


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: confused, seems to be my normal state

[tomas]

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 03:06:06PM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:

[...]

> > >   $ unzip foo.zip
> > >   $ su -c "cp image-unpacked-from-foo-zip /dev/sd_"
> > 
> > Also spelt "zcat foo.zip > /dev/sd_" for those who don't want to leave 
> > a file around they have to delete later.
> 
> ...for specially crafted zip files containing only a single file, yes.

...otherwise your combo above is bound to do strange things, too ;-P

So kids, always do an unzip -l first, combo or not.

Cheers
-- t


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: confused, seems to be my normal state

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 18 September 2019 08:51:31 David wrote:

> On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 at 21:46, Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > Does anyone have some typical scope waveforms pix that would show
> > what a working hdmi socket has for signals?
>
> There are no analog signals on the HDMI connector. Only several pairs
> of conductors for different clocked serial data.
>
> Also, if the CPU and the monitor have not been able to have an EDID
> conversation at the appropriate moment in the boot process, then I
> wouldn't be surprised if there's very little signal activity after
> that fails.
>
> So I doubt the CRO's gonna help you. Most likely I imagine that you
> just need the appropriate monitor cable with the correct digital
> signals and connectors at each end, simple as that.
>
> Did you test it yet?

Not yet, but see an earlier post, the thing is alive and present on my 
local net. Currently with a raspbian 9 card in it. It was at a duplicate 
address of the rpi3 because the card had been in the 3 and configured to 
its name & address, changed all that to unique stuff, rebooted and still 
there, just no local video.  Now, after I make coffee, fix the rest of 
the local nets /etc/hosts files. Then I can play some more. :) Like hook 
up a mesa 7i90 interface card and find out if the new spi driver works.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: confused, seems to be my normal state

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 18 September 2019 08:42:21 Jonas Smedegaard wrote:

> Quoting Gene Heskett (2019-09-18 13:46:38)
>
> > On Tuesday 17 September 2019 22:05:28 David wrote:
> > > On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 at 08:17, Gene Heskett 
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > > > what linux command will unpack the .zip and put it on the card?
>
> [...]
>
> > > 3) write the SD card
> > > (replace my /dev/sd_ with your SD card device,
> > > without any partition number):
> > >
> > > # unzip -p raspbian_latest.zip | dd bs=4M of=/dev/sd_
> > > status=progress conv=fsync
> >
> > This last is what I was looking for, thank you, and I'll give it all
> > a shot later today. In fact, card is written.
>
> Essentiall you want to copy all raw content onto the raw device.
>
> This works too (and not only with specially crafted zip files):
>
>   $ unzip foo.zip
>   $ su -c "cp image-unpacked-from-foo-zip /dev/sd_"

Unforch, I read the man page, and the command I used generated all he 
files in the local work dir. Messy.

> dd is *not* a better tool for this task - that's just false rumors.

I did wonder about that, ISTR seeing examples that used Zcat for that.

>  - Jonas

Thanks Jonas

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: confused, seems to be my normal state

[David]

On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 at 22:57,  wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 02:42:21PM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:

> >   $ unzip foo.zip
> >   $ su -c "cp image-unpacked-from-foo-zip /dev/sd_"
>
> Also spelt "zcat foo.zip > /dev/sd_" for those who don't want to
> leave a file around they have to delete later.
>
> > dd is *not* a better tool for this task - that's just false rumors.
>
> I don't know about "better", but it's the right tool for that job,
> affording you
>
> - unbuffered output (oflag=direct) for when you don't want
>   to wait for ages after dd has finished while your system
>   is flushing buffers (or worse, pull the stick/card out
>   while buffers are not flushed because you think copy is
>   ready, leading to funny results)
>
> - progress display (either by sending it an USR1 signal or
>   by stating "status=progress".

Plus:
-  does not require/waste disk space for large image-unpacked-from-foo-zip
-  Gene asked for "a command", not commands ;p

Re: confused, seems to be my normal state

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting to...@tuxteam.de (2019-09-18 14:57:43)
> On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 02:42:21PM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> > Quoting Gene Heskett (2019-09-18 13:46:38)
> > > On Tuesday 17 September 2019 22:05:28 David wrote:
> > > > On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 at 08:17, Gene Heskett 
> > > >  wrote:
> > > > > what linux command will unpack the .zip and put it on the 
> > > > > card?
> > 
> > [...]
> > 
> > > > 3) write the SD card
> > > > (replace my /dev/sd_ with your SD card device,
> > > > without any partition number):
> > > 
> > > > # unzip -p raspbian_latest.zip | dd bs=4M of=/dev/sd_ status=progress 
> > > > conv=fsync
> > > 
> > > This last is what I was looking for, thank you, and I'll give it 
> > > all a shot later today. In fact, card is written.
> > 
> > Essentiall you want to copy all raw content onto the raw device.
> > 
> > This works too (and not only with specially crafted zip files):
> > 
> >   $ unzip foo.zip
> >   $ su -c "cp image-unpacked-from-foo-zip /dev/sd_"
> 
> Also spelt "zcat foo.zip > /dev/sd_" for those who don't want to leave 
> a file around they have to delete later.

...for specially crafted zip files containing only a single file, yes.

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private


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Description: signature

Re: confused, seems to be my normal state

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 18 September 2019 07:46:38 Gene Heskett wrote:

> On Tuesday 17 September 2019 22:05:28 David wrote:
> > On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 at 08:17, Gene Heskett 
>
> wrote:
> > > On Tuesday 17 September 2019 15:07:30 ghe wrote:
> > > > On 9/17/19 11:01 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > > > And that results in exactly the same effect, partitiuon 1 is
> > > > > an iso9660 image, and I don't believe the rpi-3b supports that
> > > > > for a boot medium. dos/fat32 only I believe. Obviously I got
> > > > > those images from the wrong place in the debian file system. 
> > > > > So I need to remove these, but where do I get the correct
> > > > > versions?
> > > >
> > > > From https://www.raspberrypi.org/downloads/ ?
> > > >
> > > > Use the damn NOOBS and quit fighting with your Pi(s)! NOOBS
> > > > takes a while, and it doesn't install things the way you want
> > > > them to be, but it does work -- you end up looking at a working
> > > > Buster desktop. No confusion or cardio stress involved.
> > > >
> > > > There are a lot of recipes on the web to make things all better.
> > > > And 'rm' works pretty well, too.
> > >
> > > I'd luv to give it a try, since I've never tried it, but unpacking
> > > the NOOBS to an sd card seems to be a secret, so what linux
> > > command will unpack the .zip and put it on the card?
> >
> > Hi Gene,
> >
> > I suggest a first step is just get your Pi 4 running
> > the simplest way possible. Just to see it working first
> > before starting to customising it in any way.
> >
> > You don't need NOOBS, just Raspbian.
> > Note: Raspbian is not Debian.
> >
> > Just do this:
> >
> > 1) get the zipped image
> > $ curl -L -o raspbian_latest.zip
> > downloads.raspberrypi.org/raspbian_latest
> >
> > 2) verify the download
> > $ sha256sum raspbian_latest.zip
> > 6a1a5f20329e580d5161a0255b3d4163db6f56c3997e1c3b36bdd51140bd768e
> >
> > 3) write the SD card
> > (replace my /dev/sd_ with your SD card device,
> > without any partition number):
> >
> > # unzip -p raspbian_latest.zip | dd bs=4M of=/dev/sd_
> > status=progress conv=fsync
>
> This last is what I was looking for, thank you, and I'll give it all a
> shot later today. In fact, card is written.
>
> > and that will produce a SD card that
> > will boot a Raspberry Pi 4 hardware into a Raspbian desktop.
>
> If I can get video out of it, I am about convinced that the only
> micro-hdmi adapter I have is a $16 dud I got from Wallmart.
>
> Banggood says 2 more adapters and the big, whole top heat sink won't
> be here till around the 3rd.
>
> So if this doesn't work, I'll just shelve it till then.  Maybe
> forever, I'm about burned out on this. I've written several cards,
> without ever seeing a single byte of video on a monitor that works
> fine when driven by a pi-3b.
>
> 2 possible differences. Its not powered correctly when powered from
> gpio pin 6=gnd, and 2=5.11 volts. A pi3b has been running that way for
> 2+ years and the gpio is said to be 100% pi3b compatible.  Argue with
> me on that, this rp-4 came with no docs.
>
> I do not have a psu with an OTG connector.  Or this $16 wallmart
> adapter is duff.
>
> Does anyone have some typical scope waveforms pix that would show what
> a working hdmi socket has for signals?
>
> Now its morning locally, time go see about some caffiene for me and
> the missus. Thanks all.
>
Now I have a puzzle, that rpi-4 is powered and is on my local net, was at 
a duplicate address because the card was at one time in the rpi-3, but a 
login from here didn't look like I was looking at the same machine, so 
from here I went trolling thru proc and discovered it was an rpi-4!!!

So I changed its ipv4 address, hostname, domainname, added itself at its 
new address to its /etc/hosts file and rebooted it. Added it to my hosts 
file and ssh -Y pi@rpi4, fixed my known_hosts file, and I am now logged 
into it at its new address.  A cat /etc/issue says its running a 
raspbian 9 (stretch).

And there's still no video on the monitor its feeding. So I am 
encouraged, but where the heck is the video?

I've a C.E.T.'s typical test gear here, including a gigahertz sampling 
scope, so test ideas welcomed from folks more rpi4 knowledgable than I.

And time to make more coffee.  Like Calahan's Bar, elixer of the gods, 
but without the alcohol.

> Cheers, Gene Heskett


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: confused, seems to be my normal state

[tomas]

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 02:42:21PM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> Quoting Gene Heskett (2019-09-18 13:46:38)
> > On Tuesday 17 September 2019 22:05:28 David wrote:
> > > On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 at 08:17, Gene Heskett  
> > > wrote:
> > > > what linux command will unpack the .zip and put it on the card?
> 
> [...]
> 
> > > 3) write the SD card
> > > (replace my /dev/sd_ with your SD card device,
> > > without any partition number):
> > 
> > > # unzip -p raspbian_latest.zip | dd bs=4M of=/dev/sd_ status=progress 
> > > conv=fsync
> > 
> > This last is what I was looking for, thank you, and I'll give it all a 
> > shot later today. In fact, card is written.
> 
> Essentiall you want to copy all raw content onto the raw device.
> 
> This works too (and not only with specially crafted zip files):
> 
>   $ unzip foo.zip
>   $ su -c "cp image-unpacked-from-foo-zip /dev/sd_"

Also spelt "zcat foo.zip > /dev/sd_" for those who don't want to
leave a file around they have to delete later.

> dd is *not* a better tool for this task - that's just false rumors.

I don't know about "better", but it's the right tool for that job,
affording you

- unbuffered output (oflag=direct) for when you don't want
  to wait for ages after dd has finished while your system
  is flushing buffers (or worse, pull the stick/card out
  while buffers are not flushed because you think copy is
  ready, leading to funny results)

- progress display (either by sending it an USR1 signal or
  by stating "status=progress".

There's a reason a carpenter's shop has more than one tool,
but hey, if you insist, you can take out a screw with scissors.

Cheers
-- t


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: confused, seems to be my normal state

[David]

On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 at 21:46, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> Does anyone have some typical scope waveforms pix that would show what a
> working hdmi socket has for signals?

There are no analog signals on the HDMI connector. Only several pairs
of conductors for different clocked serial data.

Also, if the CPU and the monitor have not been able to have an EDID
conversation at the appropriate moment in the boot process, then I
wouldn't be surprised if there's very little signal activity after that fails.

So I doubt the CRO's gonna help you. Most likely I imagine that you just need
the appropriate monitor cable with the correct digital signals and connectors
at each end, simple as that.

Did you test it yet?

Re: confused, seems to be my normal state

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting Gene Heskett (2019-09-18 13:46:38)
> On Tuesday 17 September 2019 22:05:28 David wrote:
> > On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 at 08:17, Gene Heskett  
> > wrote:
> > > what linux command will unpack the .zip and put it on the card?

[...]

> > 3) write the SD card
> > (replace my /dev/sd_ with your SD card device,
> > without any partition number):
> 
> > # unzip -p raspbian_latest.zip | dd bs=4M of=/dev/sd_ status=progress 
> > conv=fsync
> 
> This last is what I was looking for, thank you, and I'll give it all a 
> shot later today. In fact, card is written.

Essentiall you want to copy all raw content onto the raw device.

This works too (and not only with specially crafted zip files):

  $ unzip foo.zip
  $ su -c "cp image-unpacked-from-foo-zip /dev/sd_"

dd is *not* a better tool for this task - that's just false rumors.


 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private


signature.asc
Description: signature

Re: confused, seems to be my normal state

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 17 September 2019 22:05:28 David wrote:

> On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 at 08:17, Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > On Tuesday 17 September 2019 15:07:30 ghe wrote:
> > > On 9/17/19 11:01 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > > And that results in exactly the same effect, partitiuon 1 is an
> > > > iso9660 image, and I don't believe the rpi-3b supports that for
> > > > a boot medium. dos/fat32 only I believe. Obviously I got those
> > > > images from the wrong place in the debian file system.  So I
> > > > need to remove these, but where do I get the correct versions?
> > >
> > > From https://www.raspberrypi.org/downloads/ ?
> > >
> > > Use the damn NOOBS and quit fighting with your Pi(s)! NOOBS takes
> > > a while, and it doesn't install things the way you want them to
> > > be, but it does work -- you end up looking at a working Buster
> > > desktop. No confusion or cardio stress involved.
> > >
> > > There are a lot of recipes on the web to make things all better.
> > > And 'rm' works pretty well, too.
> >
> > I'd luv to give it a try, since I've never tried it, but unpacking
> > the NOOBS to an sd card seems to be a secret, so what linux command
> > will unpack the .zip and put it on the card?
>
> Hi Gene,
>
> I suggest a first step is just get your Pi 4 running
> the simplest way possible. Just to see it working first
> before starting to customising it in any way.
>
> You don't need NOOBS, just Raspbian.
> Note: Raspbian is not Debian.
>
> Just do this:
>
> 1) get the zipped image
> $ curl -L -o raspbian_latest.zip
> downloads.raspberrypi.org/raspbian_latest
>
> 2) verify the download
> $ sha256sum raspbian_latest.zip
> 6a1a5f20329e580d5161a0255b3d4163db6f56c3997e1c3b36bdd51140bd768e
>
> 3) write the SD card
> (replace my /dev/sd_ with your SD card device,
> without any partition number):

> # unzip -p raspbian_latest.zip | dd bs=4M of=/dev/sd_ status=progress
> conv=fsync

This last is what I was looking for, thank you, and I'll give it all a 
shot later today. In fact, card is written.

> and that will produce a SD card that
> will boot a Raspberry Pi 4 hardware into a Raspbian desktop.

If I can get video out of it, I am about convinced that the only 
micro-hdmi adapter I have is a $16 dud I got from Wallmart.

Banggood says 2 more adapters and the big, whole top heat sink won't be 
here till around the 3rd.

So if this doesn't work, I'll just shelve it till then.  Maybe forever, 
I'm about burned out on this. I've written several cards, without ever 
seeing a single byte of video on a monitor that works fine when driven 
by a pi-3b.

2 possible differences. Its not powered correctly when powered from gpio 
pin 6=gnd, and 2=5.11 volts. A pi3b has been running that way for 2+ 
years and the gpio is said to be 100% pi3b compatible.  Argue with me on 
that, this rp-4 came with no docs.

I do not have a psu with an OTG connector.  Or this $16 wallmart adapter 
is duff.

Does anyone have some typical scope waveforms pix that would show what a 
working hdmi socket has for signals?

Now its morning locally, time go see about some caffiene for me and the 
missus. Thanks all.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: confused, seems to be my normal state

[David]

On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 at 08:17, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> On Tuesday 17 September 2019 15:07:30 ghe wrote:
> > On 9/17/19 11:01 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:

> > > And that results in exactly the same effect, partitiuon 1 is an
> > > iso9660 image, and I don't believe the rpi-3b supports that for a
> > > boot medium. dos/fat32 only I believe. Obviously I got those images
> > > from the wrong place in the debian file system.  So I need to remove
> > > these, but where do I get the correct versions?
> >
> > From https://www.raspberrypi.org/downloads/ ?
> >
> > Use the damn NOOBS and quit fighting with your Pi(s)! NOOBS takes a
> > while, and it doesn't install things the way you want them to be, but
> > it does work -- you end up looking at a working Buster desktop. No
> > confusion or cardio stress involved.
> >
> > There are a lot of recipes on the web to make things all better. And
> > 'rm' works pretty well, too.
>
> I'd luv to give it a try, since I've never tried it, but unpacking the
> NOOBS to an sd card seems to be a secret, so what linux command will
> unpack the .zip and put it on the card?

Hi Gene,

I suggest a first step is just get your Pi 4 running
the simplest way possible. Just to see it working first
before starting to customising it in any way.

You don't need NOOBS, just Raspbian.
Note: Raspbian is not Debian.

Just do this:

1) get the zipped image
$ curl -L -o raspbian_latest.zip downloads.raspberrypi.org/raspbian_latest

2) verify the download
$ sha256sum raspbian_latest.zip
6a1a5f20329e580d5161a0255b3d4163db6f56c3997e1c3b36bdd51140bd768e

3) write the SD card
(replace my /dev/sd_ with your SD card device,
without any partition number):
# unzip -p raspbian_latest.zip | dd bs=4M of=/dev/sd_ status=progress conv=fsync

and that will produce a SD card that
will boot a Raspberry Pi 4 hardware into a Raspbian desktop.

Re: confused, seems to be my normal state

[John Hasler]

Thomas Schmitt writes:
> I get the impression that uboot is a usual firmware and bootloader,
> but that there are also mechanisms which rather remind me of the ROM
> of my VIC-20.

On boards like this UBoot is usually stored in onboard memory and pretty
much is the "BIOS" and the bootloader as well.  It has a Busybox-like
shell (perhaps it is Busybox) that you should be able to connect to via
USB or serial.  With it you can examine and change all sorts of
environment variables such as where it should look for the kernel.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: confused, seems to be my normal state

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 17 September 2019 15:07:30 ghe wrote:

> On 9/17/19 11:01 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > And that results in exactly the same effect, partitiuon 1 is an
> > iso9660 image, and I don't believe the rpi-3b supports that for a
> > boot medium. dos/fat32 only I believe. Obviously I got those images
> > from the wrong place in the debian file system.  So I need to remove
> > these, but where do I get the correct versions?
>
> From https://www.raspberrypi.org/downloads/ ?
>
> Use the damn NOOBS and quit fighting with your Pi(s)! NOOBS takes a
> while, and it doesn't install things the way you want them to be, but
> it does work -- you end up looking at a working Buster desktop. No
> confusion or cardio stress involved.
>
> There are a lot of recipes on the web to make things all better. And
> 'rm' works pretty well, too.

I'd luv to give it a try, since I've never tried it, but unpacking the 
NOOBS to an sd card seems to be a secret, so what linux command will 
unpack the .zip and put it on the card?

Thanks.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: confused, seems to be my normal state

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 17 September 2019 14:04:30 Thomas Schmitt wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Gene Heskett wrote:
> > I once wrote the "debian-10.0.0-arm64-netinst.iso" to an u-sd card,
> > which booted and did a net-install on an rpi-3b [...]
> > /dev/sde1 /media/sde1 iso9660 ro,relatime 0 0
> > /dev/sde2 /media/sde2 vfat
> > rw,relatime,fmask=0022,dmask=0022,codepage=437,iocharset=ascii,short
> >na me=mixed,utf8,errors=remount-ro 0 0
> >
> > first partition is iso9660 ? Don't recall seeing that before.
>
> That's the normal partition table content of a bootable Debian ISO
> for i386, amd_64, armhf, arm64. (i386 and amd64 ISOs suffer from
> partition nesting, but that does not keep PC-BIOS or EFI from booting
> them.)
>
> The statement "iso9660" stems from inspection of the partition
> content, not from the partition table where type is 0x83 = "Linux" in
> the armhf and arm64 ISOs.
>
> The second partition is of type 0xEF and contains a FAT filesystem
> with EFI boot equipment.
> As stated already in another thread: The combination of Raspberry and
> EFI is exotic.

For debian, trade secrets for raspbiab & armbian. Carefull inspection of 
the armbian site dies not include r-pi's.

> I get the impression that uboot is a usual firmware and bootloader,
> but that there are also mechanisms which rather remind me of the ROM
> of my VIC-20. See e.g.

I've been told that the offset locations of the files are fixed by the 
bootcode, but I've not been successful at getting that data 
regurgitated.
  
> https://www.beyondlogic.org/compiling-u-boot-with-device-tree-support-
>for-the-raspberry-pi/
>
> So, unless your rpi-3b has an EFI-compatible first booting step in its
> firmware, i assume that debian-10.0.0-arm64-netinst.iso never booted
> on it.

It has not ever used EFI to boot that I am aware of.

> Have a nice day :)
>
> Thomas

From the responses I am getting, it looks like my rpi-4 is a shelf 
decorator until bullseye or maybe later. So I will concentrate on 
getting the best I can out of an rpi-3b, and probably raspbian.

Thank you thomas.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: confused, seems to be my normal state

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 17 September 2019 13:48:35 John Hasler wrote:

> Looks like you copied the file to the first partition rather than
> writing the image to the raw device (I've made that mistake
> myself). What command did you use?

sudo dd if=debian-10.1.0-armhf-netinst.iso bs=4096 of=/dev/sde

The /dev/sde obtained from syslog after plugging in the reader.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: confused, seems to be my normal state

[ghe]

On 9/17/19 11:01 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:

> And that results in exactly the same effect, partitiuon 1 is an iso9660 
> image, and I don't believe the rpi-3b supports that for a boot medium. 
> dos/fat32 only I believe. Obviously I got those images from the wrong 
> place in the debian file system.  So I need to remove these, but where 
> do I get the correct versions?

>From https://www.raspberrypi.org/downloads/ ?

Use the damn NOOBS and quit fighting with your Pi(s)! NOOBS takes a
while, and it doesn't install things the way you want them to be, but it
does work -- you end up looking at a working Buster desktop. No
confusion or cardio stress involved.

There are a lot of recipes on the web to make things all better. And
'rm' works pretty well, too.

-- 
Glenn English

Re: confused, seems to be my normal state

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Gene Heskett wrote:
> I once wrote the "debian-10.0.0-arm64-netinst.iso" to an u-sd card,
> which booted and did a net-install on an rpi-3b [...]
> /dev/sde1 /media/sde1 iso9660 ro,relatime 0 0
> /dev/sde2 /media/sde2 vfat
> rw,relatime,fmask=0022,dmask=0022,codepage=437,iocharset=ascii,shortna
> me=mixed,utf8,errors=remount-ro 0 0
>
> first partition is iso9660 ? Don't recall seeing that before.

That's the normal partition table content of a bootable Debian ISO
for i386, amd_64, armhf, arm64. (i386 and amd64 ISOs suffer from partition
nesting, but that does not keep PC-BIOS or EFI from booting them.)

The statement "iso9660" stems from inspection of the partition content,
not from the partition table where type is 0x83 = "Linux" in the armhf
and arm64 ISOs.

The second partition is of type 0xEF and contains a FAT filesystem with
EFI boot equipment.
As stated already in another thread: The combination of Raspberry and
EFI is exotic.
I get the impression that uboot is a usual firmware and bootloader, but that
there are also mechanisms which rather remind me of the ROM of my VIC-20.
See e.g.
  
https://www.beyondlogic.org/compiling-u-boot-with-device-tree-support-for-the-raspberry-pi/

So, unless your rpi-3b has an EFI-compatible first booting step in its
firmware, i assume that debian-10.0.0-arm64-netinst.iso never booted on it.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: confused, seems to be my normal state

[John Hasler]

Looks like you copied the file to the first partition rather than
writing the image to the raw device (I've made that mistake
myself). What command did you use?
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: confused, seems to be my normal state

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 17 September 2019 12:45:51 Gene Heskett wrote:

> Greetings to all debian puzzle solvers incorporated;
>
> I once wrote the "debian-10.0.0-arm64-netinst.iso" to an u-sd card,
> which booted and did a net-install on an rpi-3b but my user software,
> linuxcnc was built for armhf and would not run.
>
> I'm capable of building that from src, but was not able to satisfy all
> its dependencies, so gave it up. Apparently the arm64 is not capable
> of supporting a 32 bit program.
>
> This morning I pull a copy of "debian-10.1.0-arm64-netinst.iso" to see
> if it worked any better, but it makes no attempt to boot when plugged
> into the pi-3b.  That card, plugged back into a reader, looks like
> this:
>
> /dev/sde1 /media/sde1 iso9660 ro,relatime 0 0
> /dev/sde2 /media/sde2 vfat
> rw,relatime,fmask=0022,dmask=0022,codepage=437,iocharset=ascii,shortna
>me=mixed,utf8,errors=remount-ro 0 0
>
> first partition is iso9660 ? Don't recall seeing that before.
>
> I also have that in armhf, so I'm about to rewrite that card with it.
>
And that results in exactly the same effect, partitiuon 1 is an iso9660 
image, and I don't believe the rpi-3b supports that for a boot medium. 
dos/fat32 only I believe. Obviously I got those images from the wrong 
place in the debian file system.  So I need to remove these, but where 
do I get the correct versions?

> Was the first install a fluke, or was something changed between 10.0
> and 10.1 that would explain the failure?
>
> Thanks all.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

confused, seems to be my normal state

[Gene Heskett]

Greetings to all debian puzzle solvers incorporated;

I once wrote the "debian-10.0.0-arm64-netinst.iso" to an u-sd card, which 
booted and did a net-install on an rpi-3b but my user software, linuxcnc 
was built for armhf and would not run.

I'm capable of building that from src, but was not able to satisfy all 
its dependencies, so gave it up. Apparently the arm64 is not capable of 
supporting a 32 bit program.

This morning I pull a copy of "debian-10.1.0-arm64-netinst.iso" to see if 
it worked any better, but it makes no attempt to boot when plugged into 
the pi-3b.  That card, plugged back into a reader, looks like this:

/dev/sde1 /media/sde1 iso9660 ro,relatime 0 0
/dev/sde2 /media/sde2 vfat 
rw,relatime,fmask=0022,dmask=0022,codepage=437,iocharset=ascii,shortname=mixed,utf8,errors=remount-ro
 
0 0

first partition is iso9660 ? Don't recall seeing that before.

I also have that in armhf, so I'm about to rewrite that card with it.

Was the first install a fluke, or was something changed between 10.0 and 
10.1 that would explain the failure?

Thanks all.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: I'm a bit confused on how to upgrade to stretch 9.7

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Vi, 25 ian 19, 13:36:37, Kent West wrote:
> 
> The basic difference between upgrade and dist-upgrade is that upgrade
> doesn't remove existing or pull in not-installed stuff, whereas
> dist-upgrade might.

That is true for 'apt-get upgrade/dist-upgrade'. 'apt upgrade' will 
install packages.

> The former is good when you need a box to undergo
> minimal change; the latter is good when you just want things to "work". The
> former is probably more suitable for servers, the latter for end-user
> computers.
> 
> I usually do "dist-upgrade" out of habit (as I spend most of my time on
> end-user computers); but "upgrade" might be, at least theoretically, safer.

On Debian stable 'apt full-upgrade' is almost never necessary[1] if you 
use 'apt upgrade' regularly, the major exception being upgrading to the 
next stable release (of course).

Even on testing or unstable one could use 'apt upgrade' regularly and 
'apt full-upgrade' only when necessary.

[1] I seem to recall that in the cases where it is necessary 'apt' will 
mention "held back packages" and will even suggest to use 
'full-upgrade'.

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser


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Description: PGP signature

Re: I'm a bit confused on how to upgrade to stretch 9.7

[Kent West]

On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 8:25 PM Katnip  wrote:

> Hi, that is my bad. typos.it should read sudo apt update && sudo apt
> full-upgrade
>
>
>
>
> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> On Saturday, January 26, 2019 12:38 AM, David Wright <
> deb...@lionunicorn.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > On Fri 25 Jan 2019 at 23:46:22 (+), Katnip wrote:
> >
>
> > > or sudo apt update && sudo apt dist-update
> >
>
> >  ↑↑↑
> >
>
> >
>
> > I've never seen this one. What does it do?
> > Some sort of automatic editing of sources.list?
> >
>
> > Cheers,
> > David.
>
>
Ah, I didn't catch the typo, and answered the wrong question in my previous
response. D'oh! My bad.

-- 
Kent West<")))><
Westing Peacefully - http://kentwest.blogspot.com

Re: I'm a bit confused on how to upgrade to stretch 9.7

[Kent West]

On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 6:39 PM David Wright 
wrote:

> On Fri 25 Jan 2019 at 23:46:22 (+), Katnip wrote:
> > or sudo apt update && sudo apt dist-update
>  ↑↑↑
>
> I've never seen this one. What does it do?
> Some sort of automatic editing of sources.list?


It's a shorthand way of executing two commands from one command line. The
second command will only execute if the first command is successful
(returns an exit status of zero). Here's a short test you can try:

$ false && echo First command was successful
$ true && echo First command was successful
First command was successful

Re: I'm a bit confused on how to upgrade to stretch 9.7

[Peter Ehlert]

9.7 is not a new version. It is a new ISO to install Debian 9 with the 
latest updates.

Just update and your "old version" becomes the New

On January 25, 2019 4:38:42 PM David Wright  wrote:


On Fri 25 Jan 2019 at 23:46:22 (+), Katnip wrote:

or sudo apt update && sudo apt dist-update

↑↑↑

I've never seen this one. What does it do?
Some sort of automatic editing of sources.list?

Cheers,
David.

Re: I'm a bit confused on how to upgrade to stretch 9.7

[David Wright]

On Fri 25 Jan 2019 at 23:46:22 (+), Katnip wrote:
> or sudo apt update && sudo apt dist-update
 ↑↑↑

I've never seen this one. What does it do?
Some sort of automatic editing of sources.list?

Cheers,
David.

Re: I'm a bit confused on how to upgrade to stretch 9.7

[Default User]

On Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 15:35 Pete Geenhuizen  Well now I certainly a few things to mull over.
>
> Thanks for the responses and suggestions.
>
> Pete
>
>
>
> On 01/25/2019 12:23 PM, Pete Geenhuizen wrote:
>
> I am mainly a Centos user and am quite a novice when it comes to Debian
> and I have a computer which is currently running Stretch 9.6 and I recently
> install apt 1.4.9.
>
> With the release of Stretch 9.7 and because of the recent vulnerability
> discovered in apt I'm not sure how to proceed.
>
> According to the instructions in the Debian Security Advisory they advise
> disabling redirects which might
> "break some proxies when used against security.debian.org", not sure
> exactly what this means to me,
>
> and further on it says "For the stable distribution (stretch), this
> problem has been fixed in version 1.4.9"
>
> I just don't know what direction I should take, so I'd appreciate some
> insight and pointers on how I should proceed.
>
> Thanks
>
> Pete
>
>
> --
> Unencumbered by the thought process.
>  -- Click and Clack the Tappet brothers
>
>
> --
> This message has been scanned for viruses and
> dangerous content by *MailScanner* , and is
> believed to be clean.
>
>
> --
> Unencumbered by the thought process.
>  -- Click and Clack the Tappet brothers
>
>
> --
> This message has been scanned for viruses and
> dangerous content by *MailScanner* , and is
> believed to be clean.
>



Pete, don't mull.

Ask.

Re: I'm a bit confused on how to upgrade to stretch 9.7

[Pete Geenhuizen]

Well now I certainly a few things to mull over.

Thanks for the responses and suggestions.

Pete



On 01/25/2019 12:23 PM, Pete Geenhuizen wrote:


I am mainly a Centos user and am quite a novice when it comes to 
Debian and I have a computer which is currently running Stretch 9.6 
and I recently install apt 1.4.9.


With the release of Stretch 9.7 and because of the recent 
vulnerability discovered in apt I'm not sure how to proceed.


According to the instructions in the Debian Security Advisory they 
advise disabling redirects which might
"break some proxies when used against security.debian.org", not sure 
exactly what this means to me,


and further on it says "For the stable distribution (stretch), this 
problem has been fixed in version 1.4.9"


I just don't know what direction I should take, so I'd appreciate some 
insight and pointers on how I should proceed.


Thanks

Pete


--
Unencumbered by the thought process.
  -- Click and Clack the Tappet brothers

--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by *MailScanner* , and is
believed to be clean. 


--
Unencumbered by the thought process.
 -- Click and Clack the Tappet brothers


--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.

Re: I'm a bit confused on how to upgrade to stretch 9.7

[Kent West]

On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 1:36 PM Brian  wrote:

> On Fri 25 Jan 2019 at 13:11:46 -0600, Kent West wrote:
>
> > # apt dist-upgrade
>
> apt full-upgrade
>
> Fortunately, dist-upgrade also works in the same way even though it is
> not documented in the stretch manual
>
>
Oh yeah; I forget. I think I remember understanding at one time that
"full-upgrade" is the "newer" name for "dist-upgrade", since it's not just
used during an upgrade to a new distribution, but "dist-upgrade" is the
command my fingers remember.

-- 
Kent West<")))><
Westing Peacefully - http://kentwest.blogspot.com

Re: I'm a bit confused on how to upgrade to stretch 9.7

[Kent West]

On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 1:24 PM Paul Sutton  wrote:

>
> On 25/01/2019 19:11, Kent West wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 1:10 PM Kent West  > > wrote:
> >
> >
> > $ apt update
> > $ apt dist-upgrade
> >
> >
> > Sorry, that should have been
> >
> > # sudo apt update
> > # sudo apt dist-upgrade
> >
> > or, as root,
> >
> > # apt update
> > # apt dist-upgrade
> >
> > --
> > Kent West<")))><
> > Westing Peacefully - http://kentwest.blogspot.com
>
>
> So in this context what is the differences between upgrade and
> dist-upgrade ? I just used apt upgrade and generally use apt
> dist-upgrade to go between the main Debian releases,  as in 8 -> 9.
>
> Given the apt bug does dist-upgrade do something else.?
>
>
If the vulnerability to which you refer is the "lateral movement" bug, it's
been around quite a while (2009?), but only recently discovered. It's also
been fixed (to my understanding) as of apt 1.4.9, which you say you have.

So the dist-upgrade does not do anything else "given the apt bug".

The basic difference between upgrade and dist-upgrade is that upgrade
doesn't remove existing or pull in not-installed stuff, whereas
dist-upgrade might. The former is good when you need a box to undergo
minimal change; the latter is good when you just want things to "work". The
former is probably more suitable for servers, the latter for end-user
computers.

I usually do "dist-upgrade" out of habit (as I spend most of my time on
end-user computers); but "upgrade" might be, at least theoretically, safer.


-- 
Kent West<")))><
Westing Peacefully - http://kentwest.blogspot.com

Re: I'm a bit confused on how to upgrade to stretch 9.7

[Brian]

On Fri 25 Jan 2019 at 13:11:46 -0600, Kent West wrote:

> # apt dist-upgrade

apt full-upgrade

Fortunately, dist-upgrade also works in the same way even though it is
not documented in the stretch manual

Re: I'm a bit confused on how to upgrade to stretch 9.7

[Paul Sutton]

On 25/01/2019 19:11, Kent West wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 1:10 PM Kent West  > wrote:
>
>
> $ apt update
> $ apt dist-upgrade
>
>
> Sorry, that should have been
>
> # sudo apt update
> # sudo apt dist-upgrade
>
> or, as root,
>
> # apt update
> # apt dist-upgrade
>
> -- 
> Kent West                    <")))><
> Westing Peacefully - http://kentwest.blogspot.com


So in this context what is the differences between upgrade and
dist-upgrade ? I just used apt upgrade and generally use apt
dist-upgrade to go between the main Debian releases,  as in 8 -> 9. 

Given the apt bug does dist-upgrade do something else.?


Paul


-- 
Paul Sutton
http://www.zleap.net
https://www.linkedin.com/in/zleap/
Twitter : @zleap2018




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Re: I'm a bit confused on how to upgrade to stretch 9.7

[Kent West]

On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 1:10 PM Kent West  wrote:

>
> $ apt update
> $ apt dist-upgrade
>
>
Sorry, that should have been

# sudo apt update
# sudo apt dist-upgrade

or, as root,

# apt update
# apt dist-upgrade

-- 
Kent West<")))><
Westing Peacefully - http://kentwest.blogspot.com

Re: I'm a bit confused on how to upgrade to stretch 9.7

[Kent West]

On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 11:35 AM Pete Geenhuizen 
wrote:

> I am mainly a Centos user and am quite a novice when it comes to Debian
> and I have a computer which is currently running Stretch 9.6 and I recently
> install apt 1.4.9.
>
> With the release of Stretch 9.7 and because of the recent vulnerability
> discovered in apt I'm not sure how to proceed.
>

I suspect that if you do a

$ cat /etc/debian_version

you'll discover you're already at 9.7. If not, a

$ apt update
$ apt dist-upgrade

should do the job.


-- 
Kent West<")))><
Westing Peacefully - http://kentwest.blogspot.com

Re: I'm a bit confused on how to upgrade to stretch 9.7

[Andy Smith]

Hi Pete,

On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 12:23:27PM -0500, Pete Geenhuizen wrote:
> I am mainly a Centos user and am quite a novice when it comes to Debian and
> I have a computer which is currently running Stretch 9.6 and I recently
> install apt 1.4.9.

So you already have version 1.4.9? What does:

dpkg -l apt

say?

> With the release of Stretch 9.7 and because of the recent vulnerability
> discovered in apt I'm not sure how to proceed.

Normally as long as you have the stretch/updates line in your
/etc/apt/sources.list then you will upgrade through the point
releases just by doing normal package updates.

> According to the instructions in the Debian Security Advisory they advise
> disabling redirects which might
> "break some proxies when used against security.debian.org", not sure exactly
> what this means to me,

Well you said above that you already have upgraded to it, so there
is no upgrade left to do. But all this is saying is that, since it
is possible for the buggy version of apt to do bad things when
presented with a redirect, you may wish to disable redirects when
upgrading to the fixed version.

However, security.debian.org does have a redirect to
security-cdn.debian.org so by disabling redirects it will not allow
that upgrade to happen. You would need to either pick a mirror that
doesn't do a redirect (e.g. by using security-cdn.debian.org
directly), or else download the .deb file manually, verify its hash
and then install it with dpkg.

All of this is mentioned in the advisory.

Cheers,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: I'm a bit confused on how to upgrade to stretch 9.7

[Henning Follmann]

On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 12:23:27PM -0500, Pete Geenhuizen wrote:
> I am mainly a Centos user and am quite a novice when it comes to Debian and
> I have a computer which is currently running Stretch 9.6 and I recently
> install apt 1.4.9.
> 
> With the release of Stretch 9.7 and because of the recent vulnerability
> discovered in apt I'm not sure how to proceed.
> 

In your case there is actually nothing to be done.

This is just a point release and is only interesting for installs.
You are running Stretch already and any update automatically pulls in new
updates (as you have already done with apt).


> According to the instructions in the Debian Security Advisory they advise
> disabling redirects which might
> "break some proxies when used against security.debian.org", not sure exactly
> what this means to me,

You could update, couldn't you? So you are fine.

> 
> and further on it says "For the stable distribution (stretch), this problem
> has been fixed in version 1.4.9"
> 
> I just don't know what direction I should take, so I'd appreciate some
> insight and pointers on how I should proceed.
> 

Stay put :)


-H

-- 
Henning Follmann   | hfollm...@itcfollmann.com

Re: I'm a bit confused on how to upgrade to stretch 9.7

[deloptes]

Pete Geenhuizen wrote:

> I am mainly a Centos user and am quite a novice when it comes to Debian
> and I have a computer which is currently running Stretch 9.6 and I
> recently install apt 1.4.9.
> 
> With the release of Stretch 9.7 and because of the recent vulnerability
> discovered in apt I'm not sure how to proceed.

apt-get update
apt-get upgrade

as root

I'm a bit confused on how to upgrade to stretch 9.7

[Pete Geenhuizen]

I am mainly a Centos user and am quite a novice when it comes to Debian 
and I have a computer which is currently running Stretch 9.6 and I 
recently install apt 1.4.9.


With the release of Stretch 9.7 and because of the recent vulnerability 
discovered in apt I'm not sure how to proceed.


According to the instructions in the Debian Security Advisory they 
advise disabling redirects which might
"break some proxies when used against security.debian.org", not sure 
exactly what this means to me,


and further on it says "For the stable distribution (stretch), this 
problem has been fixed in version 1.4.9"


I just don't know what direction I should take, so I'd appreciate some 
insight and pointers on how I should proceed.


Thanks

Pete


--
Unencumbered by the thought process.
 -- Click and Clack the Tappet brothers


--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.

Re: Confused by Amanda

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 03 September 2018 01:24:35 Mark Fletcher wrote:

> On Sun, Sep 02, 2018 at 11:46:44AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Sunday 02 September 2018 06:27:01 Dan Ritter wrote:
> > > Amanda is not good for the situation you describe.
> >
> > No its not ideal in some cases,, which is why I wrote a wrapper
> > script for the make a backup portions of amanda. With the resources
> > and configs that existed at the time that backup was made actually
> > appended to the end of the vtape, pretty much an empty drive
> > recovery is possible. It appends the /usr/local/etc/amana/$config,
> > and /usr/local/var/amanda/record_of_backups to each vtape it makes.
> > So those 2 files can be recovered with tar and gzip, put back on a
> > freshly installed linux of your favorite flavor, and a restore made
> > that will be a duplicate of what your had last night when backup.sh
> > was ran.
>
> Thanks Gene, I was hoping you would pipe up but didn't want to throw
> the spotlight on you if you weren't inclined to. This is exactly what
> I'm after so I will definitely check it out.
>
> Thanks also to Dan and Jose, I can see what you mean and it makes much
> of the Amanda documentation make more sense now. But as I mentioned,
> my configuration currently isn't an end state and I'm planning to
> expand it to cover other machines on my network, at which point Amanda
> will make more sense. I get the concept of two Amandas, one to backup
> the Amanda server of the first, but then you're into a "turtles all
> the way down" scenario, aren't you? Just seems overkill when one
> Amanda can look after its own server as well, albeit with some
> jiggerypokery which Gene has kindly cast light on.
>
> So I think we can agree, Amanda's expected usage model is ideally for
> situations where there are multiple machines to back up, you designate
> one machine the Amanda server (presumably the one with the easiest /
> fastest access to the backup media) and accept that that machine needs
> special, usually separate, arrangements for _its_ backup. But it's
> _possible_ with attention to the right details such as things Gene has
> pointed out, to include the Amanda server machine itself in the
> backup.
>
> Thanks all, especially Gene for, I suspect, saving me a lot of work.
>
> Mark
I don't have anything special in terms of backup up this server machine, 
its just another set of entries in the disklist. But I'm failing at 
makeing disklist entries that are reasonable sized, which defeats 
amanda's scheduleing to try and use the same amount of backup media 
every night. So I recently separated one of the subdirs in my /home dir 
that has over 50 GB in it, and now I need to subdivide that even further 
to distribute the load better yet. So as not to disturb amanda greatly 
I'll break out one of those subdirs in another 3 or 4 days, which means 
that subdir gets an entry in the excludes file for that dumptype, and a 
new dumptype created just for that subdir, breaking out the biggest one 
remaining each time until I get all disklist entries down to not more 
than 10 to 15 GB. Biggest problem is install iso's as I keep all of them 
for all 3 architectures here on this machine, where the best dvd burner 
lives.

After the next install on this machine, several x86 iso's can go away. 
But thats future plans. This morning, after I feed the missus, and put a 
can of R134 in my pickups AC which finally gave up yesterday, its peaked 
at 97 on my thermometers, then its up to WHAW, our local radio station 
and see if I can find the intermittent loss of 70% of the oscillator 
assemblies output thats putting him back on his 50 watt night time 
transmitter.

And the owner is afraid of mods, which are unavoidable because the OEM 
parts are not available. Its a 1959 Gates BC1T. 59 years old. I've 
finally convinced him its on borrowed time if for no other reason that 
every time he buys a new set of 833 final tubes, thats 4 less of them 
that exist on the planet and whats he gonna do when he calls up for 
another set and there aren't any left, even the Chinese have shut down 
that production line years ago.  Hell, its time he retired anyway.

BTDT, used all of the planets remaining 4-1000's for the tv transmitter 
at WDTV when I was the CE there for the last 19 years of my working 
life. I should have built a new box for the pair of 4-1000's it used, 
but with a single 4CX3000 tube, a 30 year newer design I could still get 
but was too busy with other stuff at the studio to really attack that 
project. Now its finally turned off for good with the digital conversion 
at midnight, June 30, 2008. It was good while it lasted, that 
transmitter was built in 1953. So it was 55 yo when shut down for the 
last time.

Gotta get to it, coffee s/b ready. :)

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: Confused by Amanda

[Mark Fletcher]

On Sun, Sep 02, 2018 at 11:46:44AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Sunday 02 September 2018 06:27:01 Dan Ritter wrote:
> 
> > Amanda is not good for the situation you describe.
> 
> No its not ideal in some cases,, which is why I wrote a wrapper script 
> for the make a backup portions of amanda. With the resources and configs 
> that existed at the time that backup was made actually appended to the 
> end of the vtape, pretty much an empty drive recovery is possible. It 
> appends the /usr/local/etc/amana/$config, 
> and /usr/local/var/amanda/record_of_backups to each vtape it makes. So 
> those 2 files can be recovered with tar and gzip, put back on a freshly 
> installed linux of your favorite flavor, and a restore made that will be 
> a duplicate of what your had last night when backup.sh was ran.
> 

Thanks Gene, I was hoping you would pipe up but didn't want to throw the 
spotlight on you if you weren't inclined to. This is exactly what I'm 
after so I will definitely check it out.

Thanks also to Dan and Jose, I can see what you mean and it makes much 
of the Amanda documentation make more sense now. But as I mentioned, my 
configuration currently isn't an end state and I'm planning to expand it 
to cover other machines on my network, at which point Amanda will make 
more sense. I get the concept of two Amandas, one to backup the Amanda 
server of the first, but then you're into a "turtles all the way down" 
scenario, aren't you? Just seems overkill when one Amanda can look after 
its own server as well, albeit with some jiggerypokery which Gene has 
kindly cast light on.

So I think we can agree, Amanda's expected usage model is ideally for 
situations where there are multiple machines to back up, you designate 
one machine the Amanda server (presumably the one with the easiest / 
fastest access to the backup media) and accept that that machine needs 
special, usually separate, arrangements for _its_ backup. But it's 
_possible_ with attention to the right details such as things Gene has 
pointed out, to include the Amanda server machine itself in the backup.

Thanks all, especially Gene for, I suspect, saving me a lot of work.

Mark

Re: Confused by Amanda

[Jose M Calhariz]

On Sun, Sep 02, 2018 at 06:27:01AM -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 02, 2018 at 04:09:22PM +0900, Mark Fletcher wrote:
> > I recently messed up some files and decided to resort to the backup to 
> > recover them. I was able to do so, but the process left me wondering if 
> > I would really be in a position to do so in all cases. For example, 
> > Amanda configuration is in /etc/amanda -- what if /etc was what I needed 
> > to restore? Similarly, I gather there are files under /var/lib/amanda -- 
> > what happens if /var is damaged?
> > 
> > I have not been able to understand from the Amanda documentation really 
> > all that I need to have in place to be able to expect to recover from, 
> > say, a disk replacement after catastrophic failure. I'm imagining, main 
> > disk goes to data heaven, I buy a new one, install Stretch again fresh, 
> > and now I want to re-install packages and restore their backed-up 
> > configuration as well as restore my data in /home etc. I know there are 
> > a few experienced users of Amanda on this list -- can anyone help me, or 
> > perhaps point me to a good resource that explains it, or even if there's 
> > a section in the documentation I've missed that makes it clear?
> > 
> > I guess a key point is, in my configuration, the same machine is both 
> > Amanda server and Amanda client. I guess I may expand this in the future 
> > to have this machine manage backups for other machines, but at the 
> > moment that is not happening. Of course, the disk that houses the Amanda 
> > virtual tapes is off-machine. 
> > 
> > What I'm looking for is along the lines of "your nightly backup routine 
> > needs to be run amdump, then rsync this, this and this directory 
> > somewhere safe" or whatever it is. Or alternatively "don't be an idiot 
> > you don't need to do any of that, amanda is magic in this, this and this 
> > way".
> 
> Amanda is not good for the situation you describe.

I can confirm that.  I manage 3 installations of amanda server and in
2 of them I have a secondary backup system of the server using
storeBackup.  My home installation of amanda is a machine with 3 disks
of 4TB.  The first have all the system data and my personal files, the
others 2 disks contains the vTapes and the backup files of
storeBackup.  With this setup I can survive the loss of a single
disk.

Being the 3 disks always online, I am not protected against a virus
or a sysadmin error that can wipe the data in the 3 disks with one
single command.

> 
> Tell us your scenario, and we can offer better advice.

Indeed.

> 
> -dsr-
> 
> 

Kind regards
Jose M Calhariz


-- 
--
Em todo casal há pelo menos um tolo.
-- Henry Fielding


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Confused by Amanda

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 02 September 2018 06:27:01 Dan Ritter wrote:

> On Sun, Sep 02, 2018 at 04:09:22PM +0900, Mark Fletcher wrote:
> > I recently messed up some files and decided to resort to the backup
> > to recover them. I was able to do so, but the process left me
> > wondering if I would really be in a position to do so in all cases.
> > For example, Amanda configuration is in /etc/amanda -- what if /etc
> > was what I needed to restore? Similarly, I gather there are files
> > under /var/lib/amanda -- what happens if /var is damaged?
> >
> > I have not been able to understand from the Amanda documentation
> > really all that I need to have in place to be able to expect to
> > recover from, say, a disk replacement after catastrophic failure.
> > I'm imagining, main disk goes to data heaven, I buy a new one,
> > install Stretch again fresh, and now I want to re-install packages
> > and restore their backed-up configuration as well as restore my data
> > in /home etc. I know there are a few experienced users of Amanda on
> > this list -- can anyone help me, or perhaps point me to a good
> > resource that explains it, or even if there's a section in the
> > documentation I've missed that makes it clear?
> >
> > I guess a key point is, in my configuration, the same machine is
> > both Amanda server and Amanda client. I guess I may expand this in
> > the future to have this machine manage backups for other machines,
> > but at the moment that is not happening. Of course, the disk that
> > houses the Amanda virtual tapes is off-machine.
> >
> > What I'm looking for is along the lines of "your nightly backup
> > routine needs to be run amdump, then rsync this, this and this
> > directory somewhere safe" or whatever it is. Or alternatively "don't
> > be an idiot you don't need to do any of that, amanda is magic in
> > this, this and this way".
>
> Amanda is not good for the situation you describe.

No its not ideal in some cases,, which is why I wrote a wrapper script 
for the make a backup portions of amanda. With the resources and configs 
that existed at the time that backup was made actually appended to the 
end of the vtape, pretty much an empty drive recovery is possible. It 
appends the /usr/local/etc/amana/$config, 
and /usr/local/var/amanda/record_of_backups to each vtape it makes. So 
those 2 files can be recovered with tar and gzip, put back on a freshly 
installed linux of your favorite flavor, and a restore made that will be 
a duplicate of what your had last night when backup.sh was ran.

Like all such scripts, its subject to being modified the instant it's 
been published, and likely as not, won't fit your situation. But the 
outline is there, and fairly well commented, and should serve as a 
guildline to customize it for your own use. Look on my web site if 
interested, and can hack this old copy to do this for you, see my 
website in the sig, adding Genes-os9-stf to the path, and its the 1st 
two files at the top of the list. I am currently backing up this machine 
and 4 of my cnc machines in the garage and an outbuilding with todays 
version of it. To vtapes on a separate 2T drive. All in one session 
every night in the wee hours.
>
> Amanda expects that the server is doing backups for a number of
> clients, and that the server itself is backed up from either
> a different Amanda server or via a different method.
>
> If you say what your actual configuration is, we can recommend
> more appropriate systems. For example:
>
> Let's say you have a standalone system with a 4TB hard disk for
> /home  and a 250GB SSD which is root and /var. Right now df -h
> says you have used 27GB in /, 8GB in /var, and 1.2TB in /home.
> You don't expect a single massive data usage change, so much as
> slow growth over the course of the next few years.
>
> In that scenario, I would first suggest buying a 3-5TB disk and
> putting it in an external case - eSATA is excellent, USB3 is pretty
> good. Mount it as /backup and use rsnapshot to make ongoing
> backups via the standard cron job it will set up. An rsnapshot
> backup is entirely filesystem-visible, so when you try to
> recover a few files (because you accidentally deleted or
> overwrote them) you can just copy them back in to place; when
> you need to restore to new disks, you can install a minimal
> system then copy over on top of it.
>
> Tell us your scenario, and we can offer better advice.
>
> -dsr-



-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: Confused by Amanda

[Dan Ritter]

On Sun, Sep 02, 2018 at 04:09:22PM +0900, Mark Fletcher wrote:
> I recently messed up some files and decided to resort to the backup to 
> recover them. I was able to do so, but the process left me wondering if 
> I would really be in a position to do so in all cases. For example, 
> Amanda configuration is in /etc/amanda -- what if /etc was what I needed 
> to restore? Similarly, I gather there are files under /var/lib/amanda -- 
> what happens if /var is damaged?
> 
> I have not been able to understand from the Amanda documentation really 
> all that I need to have in place to be able to expect to recover from, 
> say, a disk replacement after catastrophic failure. I'm imagining, main 
> disk goes to data heaven, I buy a new one, install Stretch again fresh, 
> and now I want to re-install packages and restore their backed-up 
> configuration as well as restore my data in /home etc. I know there are 
> a few experienced users of Amanda on this list -- can anyone help me, or 
> perhaps point me to a good resource that explains it, or even if there's 
> a section in the documentation I've missed that makes it clear?
> 
> I guess a key point is, in my configuration, the same machine is both 
> Amanda server and Amanda client. I guess I may expand this in the future 
> to have this machine manage backups for other machines, but at the 
> moment that is not happening. Of course, the disk that houses the Amanda 
> virtual tapes is off-machine. 
> 
> What I'm looking for is along the lines of "your nightly backup routine 
> needs to be run amdump, then rsync this, this and this directory 
> somewhere safe" or whatever it is. Or alternatively "don't be an idiot 
> you don't need to do any of that, amanda is magic in this, this and this 
> way".

Amanda is not good for the situation you describe.

Amanda expects that the server is doing backups for a number of
clients, and that the server itself is backed up from either
a different Amanda server or via a different method.

If you say what your actual configuration is, we can recommend
more appropriate systems. For example:

Let's say you have a standalone system with a 4TB hard disk for
/home  and a 250GB SSD which is root and /var. Right now df -h
says you have used 27GB in /, 8GB in /var, and 1.2TB in /home.
You don't expect a single massive data usage change, so much as
slow growth over the course of the next few years.

In that scenario, I would first suggest buying a 3-5TB disk and putting
it in an external case - eSATA is excellent, USB3 is pretty
good. Mount it as /backup and use rsnapshot to make ongoing
backups via the standard cron job it will set up. An rsnapshot
backup is entirely filesystem-visible, so when you try to
recover a few files (because you accidentally deleted or
overwrote them) you can just copy them back in to place; when
you need to restore to new disks, you can install a minimal
system then copy over on top of it.

Tell us your scenario, and we can offer better advice.

-dsr-

Confused by Amanda

[Mark Fletcher]

Hello

I use Amanda for daily backups on Stretch. I found it not too difficult 
to set up once I got my head around its virtual tape concept.

Recently, prompted by not very much, I have started to question whether 
having these backups really put me in a position to restore the machine 
if I need to.

I recently messed up some files and decided to resort to the backup to 
recover them. I was able to do so, but the process left me wondering if 
I would really be in a position to do so in all cases. For example, 
Amanda configuration is in /etc/amanda -- what if /etc was what I needed 
to restore? Similarly, I gather there are files under /var/lib/amanda -- 
what happens if /var is damaged?

I have not been able to understand from the Amanda documentation really 
all that I need to have in place to be able to expect to recover from, 
say, a disk replacement after catastrophic failure. I'm imagining, main 
disk goes to data heaven, I buy a new one, install Stretch again fresh, 
and now I want to re-install packages and restore their backed-up 
configuration as well as restore my data in /home etc. I know there are 
a few experienced users of Amanda on this list -- can anyone help me, or 
perhaps point me to a good resource that explains it, or even if there's 
a section in the documentation I've missed that makes it clear?

I guess a key point is, in my configuration, the same machine is both 
Amanda server and Amanda client. I guess I may expand this in the future 
to have this machine manage backups for other machines, but at the 
moment that is not happening. Of course, the disk that houses the Amanda 
virtual tapes is off-machine. 

What I'm looking for is along the lines of "your nightly backup routine 
needs to be run amdump, then rsync this, this and this directory 
somewhere safe" or whatever it is. Or alternatively "don't be an idiot 
you don't need to do any of that, amanda is magic in this, this and this 
way".

Thanks

Mark

Re: Debian Stretch Am Confused about /dev/dsp

[Ric Moore]

On 08/31/2018 03:51 AM, didier gaumet wrote:

Hello,

from what I understand, using alsa-oss would be better than using the
OSS emulation module, partircularly if one is to use sound plug-ins?
  https://packages.debian.org/stretch/alsa-oss


If you use pulse you can execute your program using the prefix "padsp" 
Kino still requires /dev/dsp so you would launch it using padsp kino

Works a charm. Ric

--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html

Re: Debian Stretch Am Confused about /dev/dsp

[didier gaumet]

Hello,

from what I understand, using alsa-oss would be better than using the
OSS emulation module, partircularly if one is to use sound plug-ins?
 https://packages.debian.org/stretch/alsa-oss

Re: Debian Stretch Am Confused about /dev/dsp

[Dan Ritter]

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 03:10:24PM -0500, Martin McCormick wrote:
>   The software I wrote doesn't predate oss but some
> documentation I red years ago that probably does predate oss was
> what I used to wrige some C routines that send and receive sound
> plus use ioctl to set, say, /dev/dsp or /dev/dsp1 for stereo at
> 32000 samples per second.
> 
>   I used that to make a stereo sound card record 2
> independent 8-K 8-bit audio channels from two radio scanners
> 
>   Music stinks when recorded that way but scanner audio has
> such a limited pass band that it sounds pretty decent.
> 
>   Many thanks.
> 
> > It also pointed me to ,
> > if that's of any help.
> 
>   I will save this message and also learn the correct way
> to send and receive audio these days.

I think that 'sox' which can also be called as 'play' or 'rec'
is what you want.

Use rec to record from sound-input, and sox to split it by
channel into two files.

-dsr-

Re: Debian Stretch Am Confused about /dev/dsp

[Martin McCormick]

Greg Wooledge  writes:
> /dev/dsp is part of the legacy OSS (Open Sound System) interface.  If
> you play audio using only ALSA, or ALSA + Pulse, you do not need this
> older interface.
> 
> If your software requires the /dev/dsp interface (because it predates
> ALSA), you can try loading the snd-pcm-oss module.  At least, that's
> what the IRC bot says to do.

Thank you.  I am happy to report that adding snd-pcm-oss to
/etc/modules brought the /dev/dsp interfaces back.

I never did a lsmod on the system a week or so ago to see
what was there when I first saw /dev/dsp and /dev/dsp1 and it
could be that the snd-pcm-oss module was loaded as a result of
installing mplayer although mplayer does not need /dev/dsp and
works fine without it.

When I shut down the system and restarted it today, i did
do lsmod looking for snd-pcm-oss and it was not there.  After
placingthe name of the module in /etc/modules, I rebooted so as
to start from scratch and it was there along with /dev/dsp and
/dev/dsp1 for the usb device which now works like a charm.

I must read up on how to code for not needing /dev/dspx
to fix the real issue here.

The software I wrote doesn't predate oss but some
documentation I red years ago that probably does predate oss was
what I used to wrige some C routines that send and receive sound
plus use ioctl to set, say, /dev/dsp or /dev/dsp1 for stereo at
32000 samples per second.

I used that to make a stereo sound card record 2
independent 8-K 8-bit audio channels from two radio scanners

Music stinks when recorded that way but scanner audio has
such a limited pass band that it sounds pretty decent.

Many thanks.

> It also pointed me to ,
> if that's of any help.

I will save this message and also learn the correct way
to send and receive audio these days.

Martin

Re: Debian Stretch Am Confused about /dev/dsp

[Greg Wooledge]

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 12:14:57PM -0500, Martin McCormick wrote:
>   After successfully installing stretch on a system, there
> was no /dev/dsp.  I needed to play some mp3 files and so
> installed mplayer.  [...]

/dev/dsp is part of the legacy OSS (Open Sound System) interface.  If
you play audio using only ALSA, or ALSA + Pulse, you do not need this
older interface.

If your software requires the /dev/dsp interface (because it predates
ALSA), you can try loading the snd-pcm-oss module.  At least, that's
what the IRC bot says to do.

It also pointed me to ,
if that's of any help.

Debian Stretch Am Confused about /dev/dsp

[Martin McCormick]

After successfully installing stretch on a system, there
was no /dev/dsp.  I needed to play some mp3 files and so
installed mplayer.  The mp3's played and I also discovered
/dev/dsp for the on-board sound chip and /dev/dsp1 for a USB card
which began to work when used with an application I wrote that is
a few years old and makes use of /dev/dsp.

I was thankful that the install of mplayer and several
dependent libraries seemed to have restored the dsp devices so I
powered down the system and have brought it up today to find that
once again, no /dev/dsp.  Something got turned on during the
installation process that doesn't default to on.  Where should I
look as I can do that quicker than I can rewrite the application
to do whatever you must do these days to speak to a sound device.

The system has alsa-utils but I was under the impression
that these days, one should not install alsa-base.  As I
reported, this system is capable of /dev/dsp but it seems to have
lost it again.  That is why I am confused.

Thanks for any constructive suggestions.
Martin McCormick

Chaos of confusion RESOLVED - was [Re: When specifying path to file - confused about ./ and ~/]

[Richard Owlett]

On 03/27/2017 06:14 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:


Please avoid trying to briefly explain.
Please refer me to a good web page.
I *KNOW* I'm missing something fundamental.
...



On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 11:25:30PM +1100, David wrote:


http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Teaching/Unix/unix1.html
http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Teaching/Unix/unix2.html

Sections 1.4, 1.6 part 2, and 2.1 demonstrate use of '.' and '~' to
represent directory names.

To the best of my knowledge, '.' is intrinsic to the filesystem



On 03/27/2017 07:47 AM, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:


Yes and no (see below)

[massive snip]

Of course, if you start your path with /, it's an absolute
path, like /usr/local/bin/foo/command.



That was the key.
*BUT* it went unrecognized until crashed full tilt into another problem.
My subject line SHOULD HAVE BEEN:
" When specifying path to file - confused about ./ and ~/ and /"
Particular examples would be the difference among
"ls ./" and "ls ~/" *AND* "ls /".

richard@march-9-Jessie:~$ cd testfolder
richard@march-9-Jessie:~/testfolder$
richard@march-9-Jessie:~/testfolder$ ls ~/
Documents   metime Public Videos
Downloads   Music  t1 wordpress_install
apr-3A  new file   Templates

richard@march-9-Jessie:~/testfolder$ ls ./
test-script-0   test-script-1

richard@march-9-Jessie:~/testfolder$ ls /
bin devhome   lib
media   boot   etcinitrd.img
richard@march-9-Jessie:~/testfolder$

Re: When specifying path to file - confused about ./ and ~/

[Brian]

On Tue 28 Mar 2017 at 13:09:57 -0400, songbird wrote:

> kAt wrote:
> ...
> > I have an example where this might be useful or then I am not
> > understanding the difference.
> >
> > Let's say you have an executable package in the system and let's call it
> > pkgX
> > If you type pkgX in any prompt then /usr/bin/pkgX will be executed
> 
>   maybe, maybe not (depends upon path).

/usr/local/bin precedes /usr/bin in the default value of $PATH
Debian gives the user.

-- 
Brian.

Re: When specifying path to file - confused about ./ and ~/

[songbird]

kAt wrote:
...
> I have an example where this might be useful or then I am not
> understanding the difference.
>
> Let's say you have an executable package in the system and let's call it
> pkgX
> If you type pkgX in any prompt then /usr/bin/pkgX will be executed

  maybe, maybe not (depends upon path).

  if you don't know where the executable is coming
from you can use the command:

$ which 

  note: some executables are in /usr/bin, some are
in /bin or /sbin...

  which directories are used/searched will depend upon
the path, perhaps the shell you are using and
of course which user you are.


> But let's say you want to download and run a variation of this package,
> edit its source and modify it, or just want to run separately a
> standalone package in /xyz/packageX/pkgX
> If you $cd /xyz/packageX and then $ ./pkgX the standalone would run,
> right?  While pkgX will run the /usr/bin/pkgX

  see above...


  songbird

Re: When specifying path to file - confused about ./ and ~/

[David Wright]

On Mon 27 Mar 2017 at 21:48:00 (+), kAt wrote:
> PS  off-topic rant
> I just updated and a package named busybox came up.  Since I didn't know
> what it was I went into the page and its most recent revision of 1/2017
> seemed to be 3 years ahead of the testing/unstable version that we just
> updated now!  And this is very basic common stuff like cp and fdisk
> ..  How conservative is our system?  Wowww!

Type the following:

$ mkdir /tmp/foo
$ cd /tmp/foo
$ zcat /initrd.img | cpio --extract --no-absolute-filenames
$ ls -i bin sbin | sort -nr | more

and you will see that the overwhelming majority of commands, over
180 of them, are all in the one busybox binary of a little over ½MB.
Were you to run a shell in the debian-installer (Alt-F2), you'd see
that all those commands are much less well-endowed than the versions
you know and love.

Cheers,
David.

Re: When specifying path to file - confused about ./ and ~/

[Mark Fletcher]

On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 09:48:00PM +, kAt wrote:
> 
> PS  off-topic rant
> I just updated and a package named busybox came up.  Since I didn't know
> what it was I went into the page and its most recent revision of 1/2017
> seemed to be 3 years ahead of the testing/unstable version that we just
> updated now!  And this is very basic common stuff like cp and fdisk
> ..  How conservative is our system?  Wowww!
> 
I think that has less to do with conservatism and more to do with busy, 
unpaid maintainers doing what they can when they can, and probably 
getting narked off with it after a while especially if there is no 
evidence of appreciation from the community.

(I don't know any specifics of the busybox package, but what I describe 
wouldn't be atypical)

Mark

Re: When specifying path to file - confused about ./ and ~/

[Ben Caradoc-Davies]

On 28/03/17 10:48, kAt wrote:

PS  off-topic rant
I just updated and a package named busybox came up.  Since I didn't know
what it was I went into the page and its most recent revision of 1/2017
seemed to be 3 years ahead of the testing/unstable version that we just
updated now!  And this is very basic common stuff like cp and fdisk
..  How conservative is our system?  Wowww!



busybox is a suite of tiny cut-down programs packed into a single 
executable to save space. Most Debian installations get their cp from 
coreutils and their fdisk from util-linux.


Kind regards,

--
Ben Caradoc-Davies 
Director
Transient Software Limited 
New Zealand

Re: When specifying path to file - confused about ./ and ~/

[kAt]

Richard Owlett:
> 
> SEE https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2017/03/msg01167.html
> 
> Where I said "I was not aware that search engines accepted
> non-alphanumeric strings as legitimate search terms. Previous experience
> had suggested otherwise.
> 
> Thank you, this old dog has learned a new trick.
> 
> P.S. Fourth hit of https://www.google.com/search?q=~/+tutorial was
> David's first link ;/

I have an example where this might be useful or then I am not
understanding the difference.

Let's say you have an executable package in the system and let's call it
pkgX
If you type pkgX in any prompt then /usr/bin/pkgX will be executed
But let's say you want to download and run a variation of this package,
edit its source and modify it, or just want to run separately a
standalone package in /xyz/packageX/pkgX
If you $cd /xyz/packageX and then $ ./pkgX the standalone would run,
right?  While pkgX will run the /usr/bin/pkgX
Alternatively in creating a local web-page set the ./index.html as the
site's root directory can easily be implemented in domain.net/index.html
and all links ./.html will work on the remote site.

PS  off-topic rant
I just updated and a package named busybox came up.  Since I didn't know
what it was I went into the page and its most recent revision of 1/2017
seemed to be 3 years ahead of the testing/unstable version that we just
updated now!  And this is very basic common stuff like cp and fdisk
..  How conservative is our system?  Wowww!

Re: When specifying path to file - confused about ./ and ~/

[Brian]

On Mon 27 Mar 2017 at 14:51:08 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

> On 03/27/2017 02:25 PM, Brian wrote:
> >
> >Not only do you want a web page but you want one with particular
> >characteristics. That's a tall order but we will try. Any particular
> >colours it has to be in?
> >
> 
> SEE https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2017/03/msg01167.html
> 
> Where I said "I was not aware that search engines accepted non-alphanumeric
> strings as legitimate search terms. Previous experience had suggested
> otherwise.
> 
> Thank you, this old dog has learned a new trick.
> 
> P.S. Fourth hit of https://www.google.com/search?q=~/+tutorial was David's
> first link ;/
> "

Debian caters for old dogs and insolent puppies. On the other hand, we
would rather they are house-trained and didn't savage the visitors here.

-- 
Brian.

Re: When specifying path to file - confused about ./ and ~/

[Richard Owlett]

On 03/27/2017 02:25 PM, Brian wrote:


Not only do you want a web page but you want one with particular
characteristics. That's a tall order but we will try. Any particular
colours it has to be in?



SEE https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2017/03/msg01167.html

Where I said "I was not aware that search engines accepted 
non-alphanumeric strings as legitimate search terms. Previous experience 
had suggested otherwise.


Thank you, this old dog has learned a new trick.

P.S. Fourth hit of https://www.google.com/search?q=~/+tutorial was 
David's first link ;/

"

!

Re: When specifying path to file - confused about ./ and ~/

[tomas]

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On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 10:39:41AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 03/27/2017 09:37 AM, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

[...]

> >[give us examples]
> 
> Thought I did ;/

I was just paraphrasing your paragraph, which I snipped out ;-)

> >FWIW I studied physics. Theoretical physics. I loved math (still
> >do). I *always* learnt by examples [...]
> >let's call it a theory's skeleton).
> 
> Careful you're agreeing with me.

I thought thas wat obvious :)

> [...] The rumor at semester's end
> was that the engineering professors students' grade distribution was
> a very normal bell curve. The math professor's distribution was
> doubled humped. The engineering students average being ~10 points
> lower.

I think there are good pairs of (teacher,student), and that depends
on many more factors than on whether the teacher is math/engineer.

> >If you're less terminant next time, I'll provide again examples ;-)

regards
- -- tomás
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=VtNp
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Re: When specifying path to file - confused about ./ and ~/

[Brian]

On Mon 27 Mar 2017 at 06:39:49 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

> > On 03/27/2017 01:14 PM, Richard Owlett wrote:
>  *Please avoid trying to briefly explain.*

Its hard - but we will try.

>  *_Please refer me to a good web page._

Deconstruction: Please do my searching for me.

>  I *KNOW* I'm missing something fundamental.

Like good manners and an appreciation that people give their time to
answer here in an endeavour to help?

>  A web page will either have links to whatever my underlying problem is.
>  Or it will inherently use keywords for which I can search.
>  Thank you.

Not only do you want a web page but you want one with particular
characteristics. That's a tall order but we will try. Any particular
colours it has to be in?
 
> On 03/27/2017 06:20 AM, Peter Ludikovsky wrote without useful content:

He probably thought he was writing for a reasonably experienced user. Or
one who thinks, mulls things over for more than a minute and is capable
of exploring instead of reacting.

> >./ - the current director, usually used when running a script from it
> >and it not being in the search path for executables
> >~/ - the current users home directory
> >
> >Trying to get through an interview?
> >
> >Regards,
> >/peter

A succinct and accurate response. A user who had two brain cells and a
desire to learn could have used this as jumping off point.

-- 
Brian.

Re: When specifying path to file - confused about ./ and ~/

[Richard Owlett]

On 03/27/2017 09:37 AM, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

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On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 09:26:58AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

On 03/27/2017 07:47 AM, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:


On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 11:25:30PM +1100, David wrote:

On 27 March 2017 at 22:39, Richard Owlett  wrote:

On 03/27/2017 01:14 PM, Richard Owlett wrote:

*Please avoid trying to briefly explain.*
*_Please refer me to a good web page._


Sorry, richard: no web page, but perhaps something to start:

 ./ means "HERE"
 ~/ means "HOME"


True, but 
my learning style is often dependent on examples more than definitions.


[give us examples]


Thought I did ;/



FWIW I studied physics. Theoretical physics. I loved math (still
do). I *always* learnt by examples. Or better even: by alternating
layers of theory and examples. To the point that I'm convinced that
maths is a craft, like pottery or carpentry. You need *practice*.
No practice without examples. But that's just me?

That said, you were so terminant that I just dared to provide
something minimal (not even a theory but just a kind of refcard,
let's call it a theory's skeleton).


Careful you're agreeing with me.
I and my classmates actually learned 1st semester calculus in 2nd 
semester physics - ie springs and pendulums.
There was Part II of my story. Second semester sophomore year all 
engineers and some math majors took a specific Differential Equations 
course. It was taught in a different format - 3 lectures and 1 
recitation each week. As the number of students required two lecturers 
and the students were equally divided, one lecture was from engineering 
and one from the math faculty. Students were randomly assigned, the 
lectures being in the same hour. The math professor was a pure 
mathematician {found out later that math grad students competed to take 
his classes}. The rumor at semester's end was that the engineering 
professors students' grade distribution was a very normal bell curve. 
The math professor's distribution was doubled humped. The engineering 
students average being ~10 points lower.





If you're less terminant next time, I'll provide again examples ;-)

regards
- -- tomás
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Re: When specifying path to file - confused about ./ and ~/

[Richard Owlett]

On 03/27/2017 08:27 AM, Mark Fletcher wrote:

On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 08:38:08AM -0400, The Wanderer wrote:

On 2017-03-27 at 07:14, Richard Owlett wrote:


Please avoid trying to briefly explain.
Please refer me to a good web page.
I *KNOW* I'm missing something fundamental.
A web page will either have links to whatever my underlying problem is.
Or it will inherently use keywords for which I can search.
Thank you.


Can you explain what your question is?

. and ~ are sufficiently distinct that I'm not sure what the nature of
your confusion could be, so I'm not sure what to potentially link you
to.

--

I was thinking the same. Essentially posted "I have a basic
misunderstanding. For God's sake don't help me! Instead I want to use
this list as a human search engine"



Not true.
I was not aware that search engines accepted non-alphanumeric strings as 
legitimate search terms. Previous experience had suggested otherwise.

Thank you, this old dog has learned a new trick.
P.S. Fourth hit of https://www.google.com/search?q=~/+tutorial was 
David's first link ;/




Takes all sorts I suppose...

Mark

Re: When specifying path to file - confused about ./ and ~/

[Jochen Spieker]

Richard Owlett:
> On 03/27/2017 07:38 AM, The Wanderer wrote:
>> 
>> Can you explain what your question is?
> 
> No, not even after having having had an explanation that alleviated the
> problem.

I think you could have posed your question as simply:

"What do ./ and ~/ mean? What is the difference between the two?"

J.
-- 
I like my Toyota RAV4 because of the commanding view of the traffic
jams.
[Agree]   [Disagree]
 


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: When specifying path to file - confused about ./ and ~/

[David Wright]

On Mon 27 Mar 2017 at 22:27:05 (+0900), Mark Fletcher wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 08:38:08AM -0400, The Wanderer wrote:
> > On 2017-03-27 at 07:14, Richard Owlett wrote:
> > 
> > > Please avoid trying to briefly explain.
> > > Please refer me to a good web page.
> > > I *KNOW* I'm missing something fundamental.
> > > A web page will either have links to whatever my underlying problem is.
> > > Or it will inherently use keywords for which I can search.
> > > Thank you.
> > 
> > Can you explain what your question is?
> > 
> > . and ~ are sufficiently distinct that I'm not sure what the nature of
> > your confusion could be, so I'm not sure what to potentially link you
> > to.
> > 
> > -- 
> I was thinking the same. Essentially posted "I have a basic 
> misunderstanding. For God's sake don't help me!

No, the question is posed in such a way that the OP can slap you down
when you answer it in your way as opposed to the OP's required way.
It took 6 minutes for Peter Ludikovsky to fall into the trap, and
a further 19 minutes for the rude response, "Peter Ludikovsky wrote
without useful content:".

> Instead I want to use 
> this list as a human search engine"

Or, as Curt wrote in
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2017/03/msg00694.html
"And anyway, it's obvious Dick Owlett is crowdsourcing his retirement,
and although it's smart and modern, where's the fun in that?"

I liked this, from the same person earlier on the same day:

"Maybe not what you're asking. But if you would be kind enough to tailor your
questions to my answers, it would be much more pleasant for the both of us."

> Takes all sorts I suppose...

Cheers,
David.