Re: Debian and OSS vs vSphere
On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 09:33:38 +, Jon wrote in message 4f4df0f2.6060...@debian.org: On 29/02/12 08:02, Davide Mirtillo wrote: How should i consider technologies like KVM and openVZ regarding stability? I'm talking about downtimes and maintenance time. I heard multiple opinions on xen being a bad thing to work with, both performance wise and stability wise. I wouldn't want to set this private cloud up only to discover it's not production ready! My advice would be to stick to technologies which are widely deployed and supported, so ideally things that are in the mainline Kernel, or are explicitly supported by a commercial distro, e.g. Red Hat. That rules in KVM but rules out OpenVZ. There is an argument that virtualisation technologies (Xen, KVM) are more heavyweight than container technologies (linux vserver, OpenVZ, lxc). However in my experience and especially with modern hardware, this is rarely an issue: for example I run ~100 KVM VMs on top of 5 year old hosts. ..what kinda hardware? I'd suggest going for a virtualisation technology, and I'd suggest KVM - unless your management software layer (proxmox or whatever) dictates another e.g. Xen in which case the management layer is a more important decision. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120229220616.3d2c1...@nb6.lan
Re: Debian and OSS vs vSphere
Il 28/02/2012 20:08, Peter Teunissen ha scritto: On 28 feb. 2012, at 16:15, Robert Brockway wrote: On Tue, 28 Feb 2012, Davide Mirtillo wrote: I was also wondering if any of you had opinions regarding Proxmox. http://pve.proxmox.com/wiki/Main_Page It seems like a solid solution and it also looks it's gonna be something that works out of the box by just installing it, which is kinda what i was hoping for - yes, i know, i'm lazy :) Hi Davide. I was just about to send a reply to your other email suggesting you try Proxmox :) It offers OpenVZ and KVM so allows you to enjoy using Linux containers or fully virtualised systems. I've used OpenVZ a lot over the years and trialed Proxmox a while back and was quite impressed. I'd like to add my own positive experience with proxmox in a small environment. Having experience with openvz on my private servers, I quickly gravitated towards promox when looking for something supporting containers, virtual machines and sporting a GUI even my windows minded fellow team members could understand ;-). I use it to run a server that supports our development team. It uses containers for java web apps (confluence and Jira) and network services like DNS and dhcp and virtual machines running windows to do software upgrade tests, evaluate software and supply remote users or team members running linux on their laptops with RDP sessions to the unavoidable set of windows dev apps. I can happily run ±5 containers and ±5 window VM's on a quad core server with 16GB. The GUI is quite intuitive and provides enough functionality. Deploying a new VM or container is a breeze. It should also support live migration between hardware nodes, although i didn't test this. Backups are easy to setup either to directly connected storage of something like NFS. Best of all, it's debian beneath the GUI, so on the cli, if needed, you'll feel right at home. Peter Hello Peter, that is some good information right there - i installed proxmox 2.0 rc1 yesterday afternoon on a workstation computer, for testing, and i am currently looking at the performance. Would you please be more specific about the configuration of the machine you are using? ie cpu model, disk / controller configuration, installed nics, etc.. A private reply would be enough! The solution i am looking for will determine the hardware i will be ordering, so i am concerned about it right now. How should i consider technologies like KVM and openVZ regarding stability? I'm talking about downtimes and maintenance time. I heard multiple opinions on xen being a bad thing to work with, both performance wise and stability wise. I wouldn't want to set this private cloud up only to discover it's not production ready! I am also wondering how i will be able to deal with storage and multiple nodes: how does proxmox behave on the matter? In case the main machine goes down i would be pretty screwed, wouldn't i? I guess that since proxmox is debian derivate i could eventually have a separate machine for storage and just mount a remote share through fuse and use that, but i'm open for suggestions. -- Davide Mirtillo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4f4ddbb0.2030...@ser-tec.org
Re: Debian and OSS vs vSphere
Il 29/02/2012 01:18, Alexey Eromenko ha scritto: Basically the idea is this: On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 1:50 AM, Gilles Mocellin gilles.mocel...@nuagelibre.org wrote: Le 28/02/2012 22:11, Alexey Eromenko a écrit : Since here are 2 proxmox heads, let me ask: 1. What's the name of their WUI ? (Web GUI) Proxmox VE web interface is the official name. 2. Does it fit into Debian, by simply packaging their GUI ? (or it requires some incompatible changes?) According to: http://pve.proxmox.com/wiki/Install_Proxmox_VE_on_Debian_Lenny The package is named proxmox-ve. But then again: (about Proxmox WUI) 1. It is not part of Debian. (they add 3rd party repo to install it on Debian, but packages are not in Debian) -- unlike OpenStack and phpvirtualbox (latter is pending review). 2. I was unable to find the source of this Web GUI. What's the license ? 3. Will it fit into Debian, assuming someone will package it ? 4. They use custom (non-Debian) kernel, but this is probably not needed, because Debian (stable) has OpenVZ kernel. All-in-all, if Proxmox WUI could be decoupled from Proxmox-the-distro, (and Debianized), it could be a good move. I'm not volunteering to package it at this time, but I do volunteer to test it. Maybe you could ask them, if they want to become a Debian Pure Blend ? (meaning they package all the stuff for Debian, adhering to the Debian Policy, and build 100% Debian-based distro, sharing testing maintenance effort with us) Seems like they are working on a guide to install Proxmox on a plain Debian Squeeze: http://pve.proxmox.com/wiki/Install_Proxmox_VE_on_Debian_Squeeze I would feel much, much, *much* safer if Proxmox would be just a package for Debian and i could get all the software from the Debian repos, but i guess having an install cd and calling it a distribution can have its marketing purposes. I chose to go with the install cd i downloaded off their website since usually guides like the one i linked always cause issues, but i admit i did not try the procedure. Anyway, from what i can see, the 2.0 interface works like a charm and i had no trouble setting up a couple VMs just to play with: I'm really impressed! Having something like this on the official Debian repo would be immensely great for the community and all of the softwares involved. -- Davide Mirtillo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4f4de2f4.7050...@ser-tec.org
Re: Debian and OSS vs vSphere
On Wed, 29 Feb 2012 09:02:56 +0100, Davide Mirtillo wrote: Il 28/02/2012 20:08, Peter Teunissen ha scritto: On 28 feb. 2012, at 16:15, Robert Brockway wrote: On Tue, 28 Feb 2012, Davide Mirtillo wrote: I was also wondering if any of you had opinions regarding Proxmox. http://pve.proxmox.com/wiki/Main_Page [1] It seems like a solid solution and it also looks it's gonna be something that works out of the box by just installing it, which is kinda what i was hoping for - yes, i know, i'm lazy :) Hi Davide. I was just about to send a reply to your other email suggesting you try Proxmox :) It offers OpenVZ and KVM so allows you to enjoy using Linux containers or fully virtualised systems. I've used OpenVZ a lot over the years and trialed Proxmox a while back and was quite impressed. I'd like to add my own positive experience with proxmox in a small environment. Having experience with openvz on my private servers, I quickly gravitated towards promox when looking for something supporting containers, virtual machines and sporting a GUI even my windows minded fellow team members could understand ;-). I use it to run a server that supports our development team. It uses containers for java web apps (confluence and Jira) and network services like DNS and dhcp and virtual machines running windows to do software upgrade tests, evaluate software and supply remote users or team members running linux on their laptops with RDP sessions to the unavoidable set of windows dev apps. I can happily run ±5 containers and ±5 window VM's on a quad core server with 16GB. The GUI is quite intuitive and provides enough functionality. Deploying a new VM or container is a breeze. It should also support live migration between hardware nodes, although i didn't test this. Backups are easy to setup either to directly connected storage of something like NFS. Best of all, it's debian beneath the GUI, so on the cli, if needed, you'll feel right at home. Peter Hello Peter, that is some good information right there - i installed proxmox 2.0 rc1 yesterday afternoon on a workstation computer, for testing, and i am currently looking at the performance. Keep in mind that 2.0 is still unstable. For real world use I'd stick to 1.9 for now or wait for 2.0 final to be released. Would you please be more specific about the configuration of the machine you are using? ie cpu model, disk / controller configuration, installed nics, etc.. A private reply would be enough! It's a IBM System x3200 M3 with a Intel Xeon x3430 4-core 2.4ghz, 16GB ram, 4x 500GB cold-swap SATA in RAID 10 configuration using IBM ServeRAIDBR10iL controller and dual Intel 82574L Gigabit NIC. The solution i am looking for will determine the hardware i will be ordering, so i am concerned about it right now. How should i consider technologies like KVM and openVZ regarding stability? I'm talking about downtimes and maintenance time. My system has been running over a year now 24/7 and has had one lockup that required a reboot of the HW node. Apart from that, the HW node has been maintenance free. Upgrading to a new version is as easy as upgrading any Debian system. Keep in mind that my setup is a simple one, I don't use multiple nodes or networked storage. So, YMMV. On my private servers I use openvz directly on stock debian squeeze and it has never failed me. The only issues I had were with live migrating containers from one node to another, but that may very well be caused by the specific setup I use, where both nodes are on separate subnets. As for performance, the most demanding container I have is one running Confluence wiki and Jira issue manager (java based) with a postgresql DB. I've had that setup running on a (remote, professionally setup and maintained) vmware cluster (as a CentOS linux VM) and on my local proxmox server (as a openvz debian container). The local proxmox based on performed slightly better. I don't have any info on the setup of that VMware cluster, so it's just anecdotal 'evidence'. I heard multiple opinions on xen being a bad thing to work with, both performance wise and stability wise. I wouldn't want to set this private cloud up only to discover it's not production ready! Like I mentioned above, I haven't got experience using proxmox with multiple nodes. It seems to support it just fine and I haven't seen big issues with it on the proxmox forums [3]. But again, others (the proxmox forum [3]?) might be more informative. I am also wondering how i will be able to deal with storage and multiple nodes: how does proxmox behave on the matter? In case the main machine goes down i would be pretty screwed, wouldn't i? IIRC Promox does support live migration for networked storage for KVM, and AFAIR the upcoming 2.0 will also support it for for containers. Check the proxmox wiki [2], there's a page on (HA) storage solutions [4]. If by 'main machine' you mean the shared storage, then yes, when it
Re: Debian and OSS vs vSphere
On 29/02/12 00:18, Alexey Eromenko wrote: 1. It is not part of Debian. (they add 3rd party repo to install it on Debian, but packages are not in Debian) -- unlike OpenStack and phpvirtualbox (latter is pending review). Just to be clear to all, phpvirtualbox is not in Debian. It's not in the NEW queue, so I guessed pending review here means it's being reviewed by a developer with a view to sponsoring a new upload. However I did some investigation and unfortunately it's not even that far: it has been packaged and the maintainer is seeking a debian developer to review it. -- Jon Dowland -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4f4defb7.20...@debian.org
Re: Debian and OSS vs vSphere
On 29/02/12 08:02, Davide Mirtillo wrote: How should i consider technologies like KVM and openVZ regarding stability? I'm talking about downtimes and maintenance time. I heard multiple opinions on xen being a bad thing to work with, both performance wise and stability wise. I wouldn't want to set this private cloud up only to discover it's not production ready! My advice would be to stick to technologies which are widely deployed and supported, so ideally things that are in the mainline Kernel, or are explicitly supported by a commercial distro, e.g. Red Hat. That rules in KVM but rules out OpenVZ. There is an argument that virtualisation technologies (Xen, KVM) are more heavyweight than container technologies (linux vserver, OpenVZ, lxc). However in my experience and especially with modern hardware, this is rarely an issue: for example I run ~100 KVM VMs on top of 5 year old hosts. I'd suggest going for a virtualisation technology, and I'd suggest KVM - unless your management software layer (proxmox or whatever) dictates another e.g. Xen in which case the management layer is a more important decision. -- Jon Dowland -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4f4df0f2.6060...@debian.org
Re: Debian and OSS vs vSphere
On 02/29/2012 12:33 PM, Jon Dowland wrote: That rules in KVM but rules out OpenVZ. Agreed. But I would add: depending on the needs, hve a look at LXC. -- RMA. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4f4df167.8090...@rktmb.org
Debian and OSS vs vSphere
Hello debian-user, i'm hoping someone can shed some light regarding the current state of virtualization on Debian. Since I like my information first-hand, i thought i'd ask here for some real-world use cases. I am currently gathering some data in order to redesign the network infrastructure of the company i work for. I've been directed by some fellow sysadmins towards ESX and ESXi, but the pricing seems a bit over the top and honestly, i don't know if i actually need the whole thing, also considering that i am not familiar with enterprise-grade virtualization solutions. Basically i'm looking for a robust system that will allow me to deploy, host and manage virtual machines. The need for different services is growing in my company and having virtual machines for each would be ideal. I'm looking at a really small setup so the performance is not that big of an issue, but i am definitively looking at reliability and flexibility. There will probably be a main physical server running about a dozen machines, not all of them concurrently. Being a corporate enviroment, i am also concerned with data and network security, but i don't really know where i should be looking for informations, as designing a system with no real-use knowledge of the components can be quite a hard task. I've worked with hosting control panels and i like the idea of being able to manage the system through a web browser. To be more specific, i've worked with ISPConfig [1] which has support for OpenVZ containers. I never had to actually use that so far, but from what i saw on the management interface it seems like it would be a pretty simple solution and i like that. The issue is that i need to host Windows server VMs on it and OpenVZ does not seem to be supporting it oob. I am also currently looking at the various pages on the debian wiki on Xen, QEMU, OpenVZ and the suggested softwares to work with virtualization. If you have other valid sources of information, they would be really appreciated. [1] http://www.ispconfig.org/ispconfig-3/ -- Davide Mirtillo Ser. Tec. S.R.L. http://dpidgprinting.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4f4c97e7.1010...@ser-tec.org
Re: Debian and OSS vs vSphere
Currently there is no drop-in replacement for ESX+vSphere in Debian. (which handles large servers + has some GUI) For small servers, Debian provides for phpvirtualbox+VirtualBox combo. This lets you manage a single server. ...Which has a nice Web GUI: http://code.google.com/p/phpvirtualbox/ For more professional Open-Source solution, it will be OpenStack + it's WUI (Dashboard) www.openstack.org This one lets you manage a cloud of servers, and includes a distributed storage solution (swift), and distributed authentication mechanism (keystone). Video: (OpenStack + it's WUI Dashboard) http://vimeo.com/20787736 Biggest problem: OpenStack documentation, which does not match the actual software currently, and it is in testing category. I'm working to improve it (along with fellow community members) for Debian 7.0 release. I believe, however, that Debian 7.0 will ship with both phpvirtualbox and OpenStack, tested and documented. (in early 2013) Debian 6.0 (stable) lacks those technologies. -- -Alexey Eromenko Technologov -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAOJ6w=gmy5th4sru5n-wf-w_1h7d33lwlmmf4i364rfd2mr...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Debian and OSS vs vSphere
Il 28/02/2012 13:24, Alexey Eromenko ha scritto: Currently there is no drop-in replacement for ESX+vSphere in Debian. (which handles large servers + has some GUI) For small servers, Debian provides for phpvirtualbox+VirtualBox combo. This lets you manage a single server. ...Which has a nice Web GUI: http://code.google.com/p/phpvirtualbox/ This seems like a nice and really simple solution, but i wonder about the expandability of a setup like this one. For more professional Open-Source solution, it will be OpenStack + it's WUI (Dashboard) www.openstack.org This one lets you manage a cloud of servers, and includes a distributed storage solution (swift), and distributed authentication mechanism (keystone). Video: (OpenStack + it's WUI Dashboard) http://vimeo.com/20787736 Thanks for pointing this out to me, it actually looks like something really similar to the solutions proposed by vmware. I know a lot of the OSS solutions require quite a bit of work in order to set them up, and i don't know if this one does too. I guess i'll have a closer look at it and maybe even try it. Biggest problem: OpenStack documentation, which does not match the actual software currently, and it is in testing category. I'm working to improve it (along with fellow community members) for Debian 7.0 release. I believe, however, that Debian 7.0 will ship with both phpvirtualbox and OpenStack, tested and documented. (in early 2013) Debian 6.0 (stable) lacks those technologies. Thanks for the insight! I was also wondering if any of you had opinions regarding Proxmox. http://pve.proxmox.com/wiki/Main_Page It seems like a solid solution and it also looks it's gonna be something that works out of the box by just installing it, which is kinda what i was hoping for - yes, i know, i'm lazy :) -- Davide Mirtillo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4f4ced70.9080...@ser-tec.org
Re: Debian and OSS vs vSphere
On Tue, 28 Feb 2012, Davide Mirtillo wrote: I was also wondering if any of you had opinions regarding Proxmox. http://pve.proxmox.com/wiki/Main_Page It seems like a solid solution and it also looks it's gonna be something that works out of the box by just installing it, which is kinda what i was hoping for - yes, i know, i'm lazy :) Hi Davide. I was just about to send a reply to your other email suggesting you try Proxmox :) It offers OpenVZ and KVM so allows you to enjoy using Linux containers or fully virtualised systems. I've used OpenVZ a lot over the years and trialed Proxmox a while back and was quite impressed. Cheers, Rob -- Email: rob...@timetraveller.org Linux counter ID #16440 IRC: Solver (OFTC Freenode) Web: http://www.practicalsysadmin.com Director, Software in the Public Interest (http://spi-inc.org/) Free Open Source: The revolution that quietly changed the world One ought not to believe anything, save that which can be proven by nature and the force of reason -- Frederick II (26 December 1194 – 13 December 1250)
Re: Debian and OSS vs vSphere
On 28 feb. 2012, at 16:15, Robert Brockway wrote: On Tue, 28 Feb 2012, Davide Mirtillo wrote: I was also wondering if any of you had opinions regarding Proxmox. http://pve.proxmox.com/wiki/Main_Page It seems like a solid solution and it also looks it's gonna be something that works out of the box by just installing it, which is kinda what i was hoping for - yes, i know, i'm lazy :) Hi Davide. I was just about to send a reply to your other email suggesting you try Proxmox :) It offers OpenVZ and KVM so allows you to enjoy using Linux containers or fully virtualised systems. I've used OpenVZ a lot over the years and trialed Proxmox a while back and was quite impressed. I'd like to add my own positive experience with proxmox in a small environment. Having experience with openvz on my private servers, I quickly gravitated towards promox when looking for something supporting containers, virtual machines and sporting a GUI even my windows minded fellow team members could understand ;-). I use it to run a server that supports our development team. It uses containers for java web apps (confluence and Jira) and network services like DNS and dhcp and virtual machines running windows to do software upgrade tests, evaluate software and supply remote users or team members running linux on their laptops with RDP sessions to the unavoidable set of windows dev apps. I can happily run ±5 containers and ±5 window VM's on a quad core server with 16GB. The GUI is quite intuitive and provides enough functionality. Deploying a new VM or container is a breeze. It should also support live migration between hardware nodes, although i didn't test this. Backups are easy to setup either to directly connected storage of something like NFS. Best of all, it's debian beneath the GUI, so on the cli, if needed, you'll feel right at home. Peter -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4db4880d-c803-44a5-a585-6f0e5472f...@onemanifest.net
Re: Debian and OSS vs vSphere
Since here are 2 proxmox heads, let me ask: 1. What's the name of their WUI ? (Web GUI) 2. Does it fit into Debian, by simply packaging their GUI ? (or it requires some incompatible changes?) -- -Alexey Eromenko Technologov -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAOJ6w=gcb+_0w-pxtz0sy558gsz3qxcqokynsomwe5mnk2p...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Debian and OSS vs vSphere
Le 28/02/2012 22:11, Alexey Eromenko a écrit : Since here are 2 proxmox heads, let me ask: 1. What's the name of their WUI ? (Web GUI) 2. Does it fit into Debian, by simply packaging their GUI ? (or it requires some incompatible changes?) Hello, There's not a name for the Web UI, and proxmox is a bit more : - a kernel with latest openvz and kvm patches - latest qemu-kvm - some components to make nodes communicate (cluster mode) But, packages exist for Debian : http://pve.proxmox.com/wiki/Installation The coming 2.0 release will be based on Squeeze. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4f4d6833.70...@nuagelibre.org
Re: Debian and OSS vs vSphere
Basically the idea is this: On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 1:50 AM, Gilles Mocellin gilles.mocel...@nuagelibre.org wrote: Le 28/02/2012 22:11, Alexey Eromenko a écrit : Since here are 2 proxmox heads, let me ask: 1. What's the name of their WUI ? (Web GUI) Proxmox VE web interface is the official name. 2. Does it fit into Debian, by simply packaging their GUI ? (or it requires some incompatible changes?) According to: http://pve.proxmox.com/wiki/Install_Proxmox_VE_on_Debian_Lenny The package is named proxmox-ve. But then again: (about Proxmox WUI) 1. It is not part of Debian. (they add 3rd party repo to install it on Debian, but packages are not in Debian) -- unlike OpenStack and phpvirtualbox (latter is pending review). 2. I was unable to find the source of this Web GUI. What's the license ? 3. Will it fit into Debian, assuming someone will package it ? 4. They use custom (non-Debian) kernel, but this is probably not needed, because Debian (stable) has OpenVZ kernel. All-in-all, if Proxmox WUI could be decoupled from Proxmox-the-distro, (and Debianized), it could be a good move. I'm not volunteering to package it at this time, but I do volunteer to test it. Maybe you could ask them, if they want to become a Debian Pure Blend ? (meaning they package all the stuff for Debian, adhering to the Debian Policy, and build 100% Debian-based distro, sharing testing maintenance effort with us) -- -Alexey Eromenko Technologov -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAOJ6w�KZ_3jrn38rF=matxmj9czk0dmofgdnv3apxj...@mail.gmail.com
