Re: Distributing a procmail filter (was: Re: splitting up the...)
On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, Paul Wade wrote:
>
> The word 'newbie' just plain sucks, but why not use it anyway? We can even
> think of ways to 'haze' them until they are considered part of the elite!
>
> I use procmail to meet my needs, not because it is required. Some
> unfortunate user who is trying to install Debian because we told him it
> was better than slackware doesn't have ppp working. He sends mail to a
> debian list using his mother's palmtop (windows-CE) or webTV. Obviously he
> needs help so he can get his personal hardware operational. Why not keep
> it simple? He sends mail to debian-help and checks his pop3 mailbox to see
> whether the cavalry will come to his rescue or not.
>
> After we get him up and running, he can participate in other discussions
> and hear about the pros and cons of emacs, which mta to use, the perfect
> procmail setup, and the like.
This makes the most sense to me. I still think that keeping
debian-user as the "newbie/help" list and moving the noise
is the better way to go, but as long as people have a
simple, straight forward channel, I guess it doesn't matter.
I can just envision the confusion it would cause to change
it though. It seems less obtrusive to move the noise to
debian-{talk,discussion,noise,nonsense,whatever}.
On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, Branden Mitchel wrote:
> [ I'm starting to think we need another list for this thread. ]
>
> I believe you have mis-read what I have said. I'm personally in favor of
> a debian newbie. I'm working on a debian news, and will post an example
> as a request for comments by the end of this week. I don't want 500
> messages per day that I have to sort through with procmail. The
> reference to procmail that I was making was to have experienced users
> that wanted to supscribe to all list automatically filter out cross
> post. The theory that splitting up the splitting up the
> mailing list
> into 2 will actually result in 2/3 the original mail (1/3 on each), not
> 4/3 (2/3 on each) that would happen if crosspost were not filtered out.
I think I'm still mis-reading this. Do you mean the lists
would get filtered and cross postings filtered out? How
would this work? Which list would have precedence? This
sounds even more confusing. Either the mail would get
filtered before it got redistributed on the lists, or it
would get filtered after it went out (by us, the recipients
-- see the previous discussion on why this is bad.)
>
> Please give me a counter example not to want debian-newbie:
> 1) the name isn't that bad, they've used it on the linux list.
Because there is already debian-user for this purpose. If I
go to the library to read in the reading room, but some loud
kids go there to dance and sing, the kids should be asked
to dance and sing at a more suitable location. Your
suggesting the reading room be renamed the dance hall and us
readers should go find a new place to read. We'd better
hope some books show up too, or it may be a dull day at the
new reading room (was library).
> 2) volume will decrease if cross post are filtered out.
This is the part we keep missing eachother on. Who does the
filtering? The newbies needing help, but can't get it
because they're overwhelmed by the volume, noise, etc? The
list maintainer before redistribution (see above questions)?
> 3) newbies get a low volume list (at least for a while, linux-newbie got
>pretty bad).
I'm not convinced newbies will utilize such a list
exclusively. What will we tell newbies who don't know
better and send mail to debian-user? Will we say "go to the
right list you newbie"? Imagine the noise this will
generate, not to mention the fact that this is rude. Its
better to say "go to discussion list with this noise so the
new users can get a word in edge-wise". In such a case the
goal is not to build up a really good quiet list (think
about that for a minute), but rather to quiet the already
established (and advertised) list by offloading noise onto a
list that we don't need to care about the verbosity level
on.
> 4) gurus get a low volume list, no more scanning through newbie stuff.
I think the "gurus" subscribed to debian-user are usually
more than happy to scan through newbie stuff. The problem
is they have to work too hard to pull the signal from the
noise as it stands now.
> 5) newbies know where to post. When you start asking questions the
>newbies can't answer (or any of the gurus that follow deb-newbie), you
>move on to debian-user.
This isn't what I thought debian's support structure was
about. Please re-evaluate this.
>
> Why I don't like question, reply to sender, summary format:
> 1) some questions need to be discussed in public.
> 2) newbies will still ask questions, and this format will just confuse them.
> 3) some don't post summaries.
>
> Why I don't like the topics in the subject lines:
> 1) you still have to put up with a load of messages per day (as Richard
>pointed out).
and numerous oth
Re: Distributing a procmail filter (was: Re: splitting up the...)
The word 'newbie' just plain sucks, but why not use it anyway? We can even think of ways to 'haze' them until they are considered part of the elite! I use procmail to meet my needs, not because it is required. Some unfortunate user who is trying to install Debian because we told him it was better than slackware doesn't have ppp working. He sends mail to a debian list using his mother's palmtop (windows-CE) or webTV. Obviously he needs help so he can get his personal hardware operational. Why not keep it simple? He sends mail to debian-help and checks his pop3 mailbox to see whether the cavalry will come to his rescue or not. After we get him up and running, he can participate in other discussions and hear about the pros and cons of emacs, which mta to use, the perfect procmail setup, and the like. +--+ + Paul Wade Greenbush Technologies Corporation + + mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.greenbush.com/ + +--+ -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Distributing a procmail filter (was: Re: splitting up the...)
[ I'm starting to think we need another list for this thread. ] On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, Richard G. Roberto wrote: > On Mon, 4 Aug 1997, Brandon Mitchell wrote: > > > > > I've been trying to get in touch with the c.o.l.a. moderator (I'm pretty > > sure that's who it was) to get permission to add a modified version of > > his procmail filter to /usr/doc/procmail/examples. It includes things > > like blacklist, whitelist, vacation, newsgroup filters, etc. However, I > > haven't had a response so I may just send it to the procmail maintainer > > to see what he/she thinks. > > This is rediculous. First of all, I get my mail from a POP3 > server on some system somewhere I don't even have access to. > There's no way for me to filter incoming mail. I have to > download all of it first -- and its costs a helluva lot more > to connect here than it does in the heart land. > > Second of all, requiring newbies to use procmail filters > just to get help is totally unreasonable. I think if they > can figure out procmail, they don't need much help in the > first place. I believe you have mis-read what I have said. I'm personally in favor of a debian newbie. I'm working on a debian news, and will post an example as a request for comments by the end of this week. I don't want 500 messages per day that I have to sort through with procmail. The reference to procmail that I was making was to have experienced users that wanted to supscribe to all list automatically filter out cross post. The theory that splitting up the splitting up the mailing list into 2 will actually result in 2/3 the original mail (1/3 on each), not 4/3 (2/3 on each) that would happen if crosspost were not filtered out. Please give me a counter example not to want debian-newbie: 1) the name isn't that bad, they've used it on the linux list. 2) volume will decrease if cross post are filtered out. 3) newbies get a low volume list (at least for a while, linux-newbie got pretty bad). 4) gurus get a low volume list, no more scanning through newbie stuff. 5) newbies know where to post. When you start asking questions the newbies can't answer (or any of the gurus that follow deb-newbie), you move on to debian-user. Why I don't like question, reply to sender, summary format: 1) some questions need to be discussed in public. 2) newbies will still ask questions, and this format will just confuse them. 3) some don't post summaries. Why I don't like the topics in the subject lines: 1) you still have to put up with a load of messages per day (as Richard pointed out). 2) newbies can easially set up filters to deal with this volume. I do agree with the periodic mailing list faq. If it's posted bi-weekly, and also on the web page (with a link at the mailing list section and in the documentation), I think newbies will read before posting. This is not a slam on newbies. We were all newbies at one point, and until we work something out, they have nowhere else to go. Brandon -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Distributing a procmail filter (was: Re: splitting up the...)
On Aug 5, Richard G. Roberto wrote > On Mon, 4 Aug 1997, Brandon Mitchell wrote: > > > > > I've been trying to get in touch with the c.o.l.a. moderator (I'm pretty > > sure that's who it was) to get permission to add a modified version of > > his procmail filter to /usr/doc/procmail/examples. It includes things > > like blacklist, whitelist, vacation, newsgroup filters, etc. However, I > > haven't had a response so I may just send it to the procmail maintainer > > to see what he/she thinks. I'd appreciate it having liw's procmailrc as an example. One can learn much from it. > This is rediculous. First of all, I get my mail from a POP3 > server on some system somewhere I don't even have access to. I thought using popmail every mail is been piped through the local MTA - in that case you're able to use any filtering. If not you might get in touch with your provider in order to get a shell account on that machine. > Case in point? Debian-* may be the first mailing list(s) in > history that you need to _learn_ how to read (the mailing > list, not the words -- of course you'd have to know how to > read those too!) Haha :-) Joey -- Individual Network e.V._/ OrgaTech [EMAIL PROTECTED]_/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] Geschaeftszeit: Di+Mi+Fr, 15-18 Uhr _/Tel: (0441) 9808556 -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Distributing a procmail filter (was: Re: splitting up the...)
> at the same time. Incidentally, I think the second example > should be a pipe, e.g.: > > formail +1 -ds | procmail The pipe is unnecessary. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Distributing a procmail filter (was: Re: splitting up the...)
On Mon, 4 Aug 1997, Brandon Mitchell wrote: > > I've been trying to get in touch with the c.o.l.a. moderator (I'm pretty > sure that's who it was) to get permission to add a modified version of > his procmail filter to /usr/doc/procmail/examples. It includes things > like blacklist, whitelist, vacation, newsgroup filters, etc. However, I > haven't had a response so I may just send it to the procmail maintainer > to see what he/she thinks. This is rediculous. First of all, I get my mail from a POP3 server on some system somewhere I don't even have access to. There's no way for me to filter incoming mail. I have to download all of it first -- and its costs a helluva lot more to connect here than it does in the heart land. Second of all, requiring newbies to use procmail filters just to get help is totally unreasonable. I think if they can figure out procmail, they don't need much help in the first place. > > > Another idea/question - can a filter explode messages from > > debian-user-digest? > > There's a debian package for this, try looking through the packages file > for digest. I know I've seen it before. If you happen to have procmail installed, there's a binary in the package called formail. From the man page: EXAMPLES To split up a digest one usually uses: formail +1 -ds >>the_mailbox_of_your_choice or formail +1 -ds procmail The former is safe as long as your sure there won't be anything else writing to the "mailbox_of_your_choice" file at the same time. Incidentally, I think the second example should be a pipe, e.g.: formail +1 -ds | procmail and this would require having a working procmail configuration. I don't know anything about any digest specific package, but it may be simpler if you're not sure about the race condition issue. I do this currently and dump it into a file that nothing would possibly write to, then I read it as a folder in pine. Case in point? Debian-* may be the first mailing list(s) in history that you need to _learn_ how to read (the mailing list, not the words -- of course you'd have to know how to read those too!) Cheers, -- "Until we extend the circle of our compassion to all living things, we will not ourselves find peace" -Albert Schweitzer Richard G. Roberto -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word "unsubscribe" to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Distributing a procmail filter (was: Re: splitting up the...)
On 4 Aug 1997, Mike Miller wrote:
> > "brandon" == Brandon Mitchell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > If people who read debian-{novice,help,install,newbie} set
> > up a procmail filter that removes cross postings, and this
> > is made known, [...]
> ^^
> This sounds like a good idea here. What if a Debian package were
> available that set up a filter for the mailing lists so that
> sorting would be "easier" for new users? This would require
> someone to be trusted not to editorialize too much in the filter,
> but perhaps it could be done.
I've been trying to get in touch with the c.o.l.a. moderator (I'm pretty
sure that's who it was) to get permission to add a modified version of
his procmail filter to /usr/doc/procmail/examples. It includes things
like blacklist, whitelist, vacation, newsgroup filters, etc. However, I
haven't had a response so I may just send it to the procmail maintainer
to see what he/she thinks.
> Another idea/question - can a filter explode messages from
> debian-user-digest?
There's a debian package for this, try looking through the packages file
for digest. I know I've seen it before.
Brandon
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