Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 07:40, Weaver wea...@riseup.net wrote: Yes, it raises the point that some manufacturers achieve their hardware height and profile, not from the keyboard base, but from the different heights of keys on the different rows of a Qwerty. My current keyboard is built like that, each row of keys has a different profile. I moved the keycaps from qwerty to Colemak regardless, and although one can see with the eye that not all the keycaps are level, it cannot be felt in typing. I am a very sensitive typer, I can tell you which keys take 35 grams of force, which take 45, and which are inaccurate and take too much. If I don't notice the different keycaps in typing, then I assure you that it is not an issue. Note that I did put some rough tape on the (qwerty) F and J keys to help me find home row. Yes, on referring to the companies themselves for information, I've found that many don't know much about their own product. The Australian agent for one brand states that they don't make a keyboard that caters for Dvorak, while the manufacturer says that there's not a problem. I don't appreciate that sort of thing on a professional level. If they're that sloppy, maybe their support and other aspects are the same. Doesn't give you much confidence in buying their product, going forward. Regards, Weaver. -- Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. — Lucius Annæus Seneca. Terrorism, the new religion. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/17a38ed559ec8fa63094b07383378254.squir...@fulvetta.riseup.net
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 00:47, Dan Serban dser...@lodgingcompany.com wrote: If not using your own hardware, would that not be a detriment after getting used to the MS Natural keyboard? Not at all. The R in RSI is repetitive, and the key to healing is to reduce repetitive tasks. So regularly switching keyboards helps to heal RSI. I have three different keyboards that I rotate, two of which I can type on standing. One of them is the MS Natural! I find that all of my computers, and versions of consoles, distributions and desktop environments have very excellent support for other keyboard layouts. Heck, even my Android phone sports a colemak layout, and touch typing on that device certainly doesn't have the same meaning. Usually I can find a way to use my layout, if not, qwerty like I've said isn't a far stretch for me. When I type in Colemak I hold the keyboard differently, with my fingers one key over (that would be D and K in qwerty). Since the hardware feels physically different under my hands, muscle memory lets me switch easier. -- Dotan Cohen http://gibberish.co.il http://what-is-what.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/cakdxfknlznesqu+bowe+a84g9i2lxfmza3duf_iurftjyjz...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
On Thu, Jan 12, 2012 at 07:40, Weaver wea...@riseup.net wrote: Yes, it raises the point that some manufacturers achieve their hardware height and profile, not from the keyboard base, but from the different heights of keys on the different rows of a Qwerty. My current keyboard is built like that, each row of keys has a different profile. I moved the keycaps from qwerty to Colemak regardless, and although one can see with the eye that not all the keycaps are level, it cannot be felt in typing. I am a very sensitive typer, I can tell you which keys take 35 grams of force, which take 45, and which are inaccurate and take too much. If I don't notice the different keycaps in typing, then I assure you that it is not an issue. Note that I did put some rough tape on the (qwerty) F and J keys to help me find home row. -- Dotan Cohen http://gibberish.co.il http://what-is-what.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAKDXFkNMFZ5NO=W-K_43oS4Cuh+9+YRoYUVJ8DHz13zwX5g=v...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
On 10 Jan 2012, Dan Serban wrote: That site is down at present. My question: is it really worth the trouble of learning a new way of typing, if you are already a moderately competent touch typist on the QWERTY keyboard? Well, I hope the site has become available to you again since the original message. There, you can see the layout that colemak provides, it's close to Qwerty and provides some pros (maybe some cons) to the layout. While I do admit that it is quite aggravating to learn a new layout; IMHO it has paid off for me. I've learned to effectively touch type, and I feel that my comfort level is certainly higher. I've never been a speedy typer so I cannot add that to the advantages. Though I do find that I make much fewer mistakes and my fingers definitely do not travel as far as I felt that they used to using Qwerty. I suggest you print out whatever layout you ever decide to go with, if you so decide.. then at least you will be able to enter your passwords without too much frustration. If you feel that you have reasons to switch I suggest you give it a shot, otherwise, don't simply add a layer of frustration to your daily routine until you are convinced this is the way to go. Thank you - and yes, the site is up again now. Your advice about deciding to change is similar to that given by colemak. I can see the force of the arguments for changing and if I were younger I'd probably try, but at nearly 78 I doubt if it is worth it. I don't actually have RSI or other problems with qwerty. Not that I'm averse to new ideas: I'm currently making a start on learning a little C. They do suggest that even if you don't make the switch you should reprogram CapsLock to give BackSpace. I had long had it giving Escape (needed frequently in my favourite editor, Vim) but I'm trying it out as BackSpace now. I find I often hit Return instead of the normal BackSpace so this may be worth while. Anthony -- Anthony Campbell - a...@acampbell.org.uk Microsoft-free zone - using Linux http://www.acampbell.org.uk - book reviews, articles, blog, and printed books and ebooks -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120111090744.ga2...@acampbell.org.uk
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
On Wed, 11 Jan 2012 08:15:19 +0100 Andreas Weber ae...@worldwideweber.ch wrote: My question: is it really worth the trouble of learning a new way of typing, if you are already a moderately competent touch typist on the QWERTY keyboard? No, it's not. Only if you always work on your own hardware. But as soon as you have to touch different machines ... QWERT is everywhere (like vi on *nix machines). While that argument may stand in a logical sense, yes that is a drawback. Once I learned where all of the keys are placed on my colemak layout I found that I did have to hunt and peck when using qwerty. A while later, it felt like it magically came back and now, while not proficient, I can certainly still type in qwerty if the circumstance dictates. I've heard the same story from others I've talked to and feel that it really isn't an issue, certainly in my case from my own experience. Learn to type properly and use a Natural 4000 M$ Keyboard is my suggestion. And don't overtrain in the beginning, learn to type as if you would learn to run a marathon. It'll take some time, your body has to adapt first. Maybe that argument does hold some water, but is simply IMHO a band-aid on top of the problem. RSI can be tackled from many different angles, and your solution may be one of them, though I could point to your argument above; If not using your own hardware, would that not be a detriment after getting used to the MS Natural keyboard? I find that all of my computers, and versions of consoles, distributions and desktop environments have very excellent support for other keyboard layouts. Heck, even my Android phone sports a colemak layout, and touch typing on that device certainly doesn't have the same meaning. Usually I can find a way to use my layout, if not, qwerty like I've said isn't a far stretch for me. Just my 2c. =), mine too. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/2012044706.02809...@ws82.int.tlc
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
On Wed, 11 Jan 2012 09:07:44 + Anthony Campbell a...@acampbell.org.uk wrote: On 10 Jan 2012, Dan Serban wrote: That site is down at present. My question: is it really worth the trouble of learning a new way of typing, if you are already a moderately competent touch typist on the QWERTY keyboard? Well, I hope the site has become available to you again since the original message. There, you can see the layout that colemak provides, it's close to Qwerty and provides some pros (maybe some cons) to the layout. While I do admit that it is quite aggravating to learn a new layout; IMHO it has paid off for me. I've learned to effectively touch type, and I feel that my comfort level is certainly higher. I've never been a speedy typer so I cannot add that to the advantages. Though I do find that I make much fewer mistakes and my fingers definitely do not travel as far as I felt that they used to using Qwerty. I suggest you print out whatever layout you ever decide to go with, if you so decide.. then at least you will be able to enter your passwords without too much frustration. If you feel that you have reasons to switch I suggest you give it a shot, otherwise, don't simply add a layer of frustration to your daily routine until you are convinced this is the way to go. Thank you - and yes, the site is up again now. Your advice about deciding to change is similar to that given by colemak. I can see the force of the arguments for changing and if I were younger I'd probably try, but at nearly 78 I doubt if it is worth it. I don't actually have RSI or other problems with qwerty. Not that I'm averse to new ideas: I'm currently making a start on learning a little C. Well, first of all, I must say that I'm impressed with your drive to use debian (forgive my candor) at your age. From my experience, in later stages of life, people get stuck in their ruts and are adverse to change in any way. Maybe then you'd be an excellent candidate to try a different keyboard layout? =) Though I must add that your argument is fair, if for any reason you find that you're actually looking for reasons to frustrate the heck out of yourself, then maybe it's not a good idea. I found that in the end it really didn't take me long to learn a new layout. Overall, while learning colemak I used to think to myself that I was having severe difficulty adapting to where the keys are and thought the others out there making comments about the easy switch were either 12 year olds or severely more adept at learning new things than I was. My trick was printing the layout, taping it nicely to my central screen and blindly learning to touch type. It also helped having a keyboard with blank keys to erase any and all excuses not to try. I went into it both feet first and have never really turned back. I tell you though, the first two weeks were quite tough and my fingers actually started twitching after hitting the wrong key 4 times in a row. They do suggest that even if you don't make the switch you should reprogram CapsLock to give BackSpace. I had long had it giving Escape (needed frequently in my favourite editor, Vim) but I'm trying it out as BackSpace now. I find I often hit Return instead of the normal BackSpace so this may be worth while. Indeed, I've never found the Caps Lock key very useful. In reality, the only time I've ever put it to use was to enter my postal code (Canadian here). Otherwise, useless. I did reprogram it to be a second control key in my case. My approach was to be more accurate than high-speed, so having my pinkie try to find the control key at the bottom of the keyboard was a hassle. I use it all the time for things like tmux, and zsh so I found it advantageous to have it there. I've thought about having the keyboard layout swap the tilde/backtick key with the Esc key as vim is my primary editor as well. Haven't tried to do that recently because it involved editing files that I did not comprehend. Fear it's a great demotivator! Anthony Apologies to the list for my OT posts and ramblings. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/2012063451.7fd64...@ws82.int.tlc
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
* Weaver wea...@riseup.net [120112 02:56]: Hello all. I've been interested in this subject for some time, because of the greater typing speed potential and lowr incidence of RSI and have even delayed moving from two finger typing with an idea of implementing a Dvorak keyboard into the system. Who makes the best ones? Where can they be bought from. Thanks for any time and trouble. Regards, Weaver. SHORT ANSWER: Do NOT purchase a Dvorak-layout keyboard. Instead, learn to touch-type Dvorak on a standard QWERTY keyboard. The computer does not care how the keycaps are labeled; and if you touch-type, neither should you! LONGER ANSWER: I learned to touch-type circa 1963 on a manual typewriter which used the QWERTY layout but had blank keycaps. I was one of the fastest and most accurate typists in the class, but numbers always were difficult for me. From 1963 until the present day, I type daily and heavily. About 1980, with my first IBM-PC (running M$DO$ and Window$) and a major contract in hand, I switched to the classic (that is, the original) Dvorak layout, in which the numeric row is: [ 7 5 3 1 9 0 2 4 6 8 ] Because the classic Dvorak layout is more-or-less intuitive to the native English speaker, the transition from QWERTY to Dvorak classic was not painful; it took me about a month to become comfortable and proficient with Dvorak. (The best way to ensure a successful transition is to commit yourself to the Dvorak layout at the beginning of a major project -- so that the matter becomes swim or drown, and so that turning back is not an option.) Of course, learning the Dvorak layout should be easier for someone who does not have to unlearn QWERTY in the process. With the classic Dvorak layout (which now is available in Debian and Ubuntu, if not elsewhere), numbers suddenly were much easier to type accurately and rapidly. Back then, it was impractical for me to search for a classic Dvorak keyboard driver; the few readily-available drivers produced the modified layout. So I wore out several Northgate brand keyboards which had the classic Dvorak option. Once keyboard layout utilities (such as TradeKeys Dvorak became common, I switched to an off-the-shelf QWERTY keyboard and simply ignored the keycap labels. (After all, this is what touch-typing is all about.) An added advantage is that QWERTY typists do not use my computer, because they cannot decipher the key layout! When I first switched from Window$ to Debian, I paid a Debian guru to modify the QWERTY keyboard driver to Dvorak classic layout. (August Dvorak really knew what he was doing when he arranged the numeric key row.) On the original Selectric, IBM offered as an option a layout which today is termed the modified Dvorak layout. But the modified layout is a lamentable and foolish compromise in which the numeric row arrangement is: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 - = and there are other changes, as well. Regrettably, it is the compromised modified Dvorak layout which was standardized by the ISO (see Wikipedia). Apple likewise used the modified Dvorak layout on the IIC, allowing the user to switch between QWERTY and modified Dvorak with a slide switch. Please see the article at: http://www.matthewweathers.com/year2004/emacs_dvorak.htm . The section labeled Update, August 2006:) presents my recommendations concerning intuitive Emacs-specific keybindings which have served me well for at least a decade. RLH -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120112043825.ga20...@gospelbroadcasting.org
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 16:46:47 -0800 Weaver wea...@riseup.net wrote: On Sun, 8 Jan 2012 11:06:48 +0200 Dotan Cohen dotanco...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 21:37, Lisi lisi.re...@gmail.com wrote: On Friday 06 January 2012 18:44:22 Raf Czlonka wrote: What's wrong with simply re-arrange the keys on your existing keyboard From investigations so far. Advice from Daskeyboards support: Thanks for your interest in Das Keyboard! The physical key caps cannot be rearranged into the Dvorak layout because each row has a different height and curvature, so keys on the QWERTY row would not feel right when mixed with keys on the ASDF or ZXCV rows. The keyboard can be used in Dvorak when you change the settings in your computer, but the keys themselves can't be rearranged without it feeling wrong to your fingers. I hope this helps. Please let me know if you have any other questions. Regards, Weaver. While I have a das keyboard, the answer is correct. Unicomp might have a layout that is hardware based. I'd try them at http://pckeyboards.com -- Dan Serban, IT Systems Administrator The Lodging Company Reservations LTD. - 1.250.869.4931 ext 6252 Reservations: 1.888.676.9977 - Administration: 1.778.478.8101 http://www.lodgingcompany.com - http://www.skihills.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120111211925.4dcde...@ws82.int.tlc
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
On Tue, 10 Jan 2012 16:46:47 -0800 Weaver wea...@riseup.net wrote: From investigations so far. Advice from Daskeyboards support: Thanks for your interest in Das Keyboard! The physical key caps cannot be rearranged into the Dvorak layout because each row has a different height and curvature, so keys on the QWERTY row would not feel right when mixed with keys on the ASDF or ZXCV rows. The keyboard can be used in Dvorak when you change the settings in your computer, but the keys themselves can't be rearranged without it feeling wrong to your fingers. I hope this helps. Please let me know if you have any other questions. Regards, Weaver. While I have a das keyboard, the answer is correct. Unicomp might have a layout that is hardware based. I'd try them at http://pckeyboards.com Yes, it raises the point that some manufacturers achieve their hardware height and profile, not from the keyboard base, but from the different heights of keys on the different rows of a Qwerty. Still, one of their blank 'Ultimate' boards, that only needs the change in the software config. should be fine. I'm thinking of doing that and buying stickers for the initial stage. Once they wear off, I should be well on top of the touch typing situation. Regards, Weaver. -- Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. — Lucius Annæus Seneca. Terrorism, the new religion. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/7228eb13608345b93b55788783fd1176.squir...@fulvetta.riseup.net
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
On Mon, Jan 9, 2012 at 19:35, Anthony Campbell a...@acampbell.org.uk wrote: My question: is it really worth the trouble of learning a new way of typing, if you are already a moderately competent touch typist on the QWERTY keyboard? Probably not. Some people cite speed, others comfort as a reason. I'll tell you mine. I type fast. Real fast. I haven't done a wpm test but let's just say that I type faster than most. Often, this speed comes with increased finger pressure on the keys (I bang them) and rapid wrist movement. Both those factors cause me pain now. Switching to Colemak slowed me down considerably, as such I could relearn how I press the keys and avoid bottoming out (mechanical keyboards do not need to bottom out to register a keypress). Furthermore, the reduced wrist movement (because of the better layout) and the slower movement (due to my unfamiliarity with the layout) have reduced my wrist pain. I am actually typing this in qwerty now, and I see that my fingers are all over the keyboard. My pinky hurts! Note that I decided to do something different for Colemak. Instead of putting my index fingers in the 'correct' position (F and J in Qwerty) I put them further out (D and K in Qwerty). This gives me a bit more room between them, for a more natural typing position, and it reduces the load on the pinkies. The extra load is moved to the index fingers, which are stronger and more agile. I am trying to configure my own keyboard layout, but I am having trouble remapping the modifier keys: Noah Ergonomic Keyboard Layout http://dotancohen.com/eng/noah_ergonomic_keyboard_layout.html That layout moves the hands as far apart as possible and moves as much load off the pinkies as possible. It is very comfortable, but I am having trouble writing an xkb layout for it. -- Dotan Cohen http://gibberish.co.il http://what-is-what.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/cakdxfkn6b7qceqtk+anjfdkck_nlx8sk-+vxu2y+6h7e2xn...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
Hi Weaver, If you are curious about keyboard layouts then you might really enjoy Dvorak. I have used Dvorak for about 8 years. It takes a while to get rolling, but it has definitely been worth it. I feel like typing is a much smoother activity now, and touch typing is easier. When I started out, I took old keyboards, popped off the keys, rearranged them, and used a software layout on the computer. That worked fine for a long time, and there was no expensive investment. Note that not all keyboards can be rearranged this way. More recently I bough I new clicky keyboard (mechanical switches) from Unicomp. These are like old IBM keyboards that are still in production in Kentucky USA. http://pckeyboard.com/ The Ultra Classic is a good one that has all the modern control keys. These keyboards have an old school feel that some will appreciate. It's not clear on the website, but at checkout time you can pick what layout you want. I picked Dvorak, and lo and behold I received in the mail a HARDWARE Dvorak keyboard. That means I just plug it in and it works, no configuration needed. That also means I don't have to worry about the layout being wrong at boot time or at a grub prompt. Nice! On my laptop it was not feasible to rearrange the keys. I much prefer to have the keys properly labeled, so I used keyboard labels and that has worked well so far. There are lots of different ways to do Dvorak. The hardest part is getting over the hump of the learning curve. Rickard Great! Thanks for that. Weaver. -- Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. — Lucius Annæus Seneca. Terrorism, the new religion. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/8661a08c4f6a35c0590953f9c7a1c484.squir...@fulvetta.riseup.net
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
On Mon, 9 Jan 2012 17:35:52 + Anthony Campbell a...@acampbell.org.uk wrote: On 06 Jan 2012, Dan Serban wrote: On Fri, 6 Jan 2012 09:39:03 -0800 Weaver wea...@riseup.net wrote: Hello all. I've been interested in this subject for some time, because of the greater typing speed potential and lowr incidence of RSI and have even delayed moving from two finger typing with an idea of implementing a Dvorak keyboard into the system. While I don't want to start a flame war, I'd suggest having a look at the colemak layout as well. This has some advantages (I feel) over Dvorak. Then again, it may all boil down to personal preference. http://colemak.com That site is down at present. My question: is it really worth the trouble of learning a new way of typing, if you are already a moderately competent touch typist on the QWERTY keyboard? Well, I hope the site has become available to you again since the original message. There, you can see the layout that colemak provides, it's close to Qwerty and provides some pros (maybe some cons) to the layout. While I do admit that it is quite aggravating to learn a new layout; IMHO it has paid off for me. I've learned to effectively touch type, and I feel that my comfort level is certainly higher. I've never been a speedy typer so I cannot add that to the advantages. Though I do find that I make much fewer mistakes and my fingers definitely do not travel as far as I felt that they used to using Qwerty. I suggest you print out whatever layout you ever decide to go with, if you so decide.. then at least you will be able to enter your passwords without too much frustration. If you feel that you have reasons to switch I suggest you give it a shot, otherwise, don't simply add a layer of frustration to your daily routine until you are convinced this is the way to go. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120110162512.1f5a2...@ws82.int.tlc
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
On Sun, 8 Jan 2012 11:06:48 +0200 Dotan Cohen dotanco...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 21:37, Lisi lisi.re...@gmail.com wrote: On Friday 06 January 2012 18:44:22 Raf Czlonka wrote: What's wrong with simply re-arrange the keys on your existing keyboard How do you do that? I know that there used to be IBM keyboards on which you could rearrange the keys, but I do not know of any modern equivalent. The physical keys do not need to be changed, just the keycaps. Every consumer keyboard can have the keycaps removed and replaced. I am a keyboard affectionado, I am currently typing on a Cherry Brown keyboard that I personally rearranged the keycaps on from Qwerty to Colemak. Photos upon request. If you need advice for removing and reinstalling the keycaps I can help. Pics please. How do you find the browns? Using blues right now and I feel that they're weak, not enough force to make them actuate. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120110162640.016e2...@ws82.int.tlc
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
On Sun, 8 Jan 2012 11:06:48 +0200 Dotan Cohen dotanco...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 21:37, Lisi lisi.re...@gmail.com wrote: On Friday 06 January 2012 18:44:22 Raf Czlonka wrote: What's wrong with simply re-arrange the keys on your existing keyboard From investigations so far. Advice from Daskeyboards support: Thanks for your interest in Das Keyboard! The physical key caps cannot be rearranged into the Dvorak layout because each row has a different height and curvature, so keys on the QWERTY row would not feel right when mixed with keys on the ASDF or ZXCV rows. The keyboard can be used in Dvorak when you change the settings in your computer, but the keys themselves can't be rearranged without it feeling wrong to your fingers. I hope this helps. Please let me know if you have any other questions. Regards, Weaver. -- Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. — Lucius Annæus Seneca. Terrorism, the new religion. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/9d0b9fe89f448c7065d99defc6e6d53f.squir...@fulvetta.riseup.net
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
My question: is it really worth the trouble of learning a new way of typing, if you are already a moderately competent touch typist on the QWERTY keyboard? No, it's not. Only if you always work on your own hardware. But as soon as you have to touch different machines ... QWERT is everywhere (like vi on *nix machines). Learn to type properly and use a Natural 4000 M$ Keyboard is my suggestion. And don't overtrain in the beginning, learn to type as if you would learn to run a marathon. It'll take some time, your body has to adapt first. Just my 2c. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4f0d3707.8010...@worldwideweber.ch
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
On 06 Jan 2012, Dan Serban wrote: On Fri, 6 Jan 2012 09:39:03 -0800 Weaver wea...@riseup.net wrote: Hello all. I've been interested in this subject for some time, because of the greater typing speed potential and lowr incidence of RSI and have even delayed moving from two finger typing with an idea of implementing a Dvorak keyboard into the system. While I don't want to start a flame war, I'd suggest having a look at the colemak layout as well. This has some advantages (I feel) over Dvorak. Then again, it may all boil down to personal preference. http://colemak.com That site is down at present. My question: is it really worth the trouble of learning a new way of typing, if you are already a moderately competent touch typist on the QWERTY keyboard? -- Anthony Campbell - a...@acampbell.org.uk Microsoft-free zone - using Linux http://www.acampbell.org.uk - book reviews, articles, blog, and printed books and ebooks -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120109173552.gb14...@acampbell.org.uk
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
On 06 Jan 2012, Dan Serban wrote: On Fri, 6 Jan 2012 09:39:03 -0800 Weaver wea...@riseup.net wrote: Hello all. I've been interested in this subject for some time, because of the greater typing speed potential and lowr incidence of RSI and have even delayed moving from two finger typing with an idea of implementing a Dvorak keyboard into the system. While I don't want to start a flame war, I'd suggest having a look at the colemak layout as well. This has some advantages (I feel) over Dvorak. Then again, it may all boil down to personal preference. http://colemak.com That site is down at present. My question: is it really worth the trouble of learning a new way of typing, if you are already a moderately competent touch typist on the QWERTY keyboard? With Dvorak, at least, there are statistically verified claims of 40% faster touch typing speeds and 40% lower incidence of RSI over Qwerty keyboard users. Regards, Weaver. -- Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. — Lucius Annæus Seneca. Terrorism, the new religion. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/7366b5045a1dad246d1dbc1b8721622f.squir...@fulvetta.riseup.net
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
Hi Weaver, If you are curious about keyboard layouts then you might really enjoy Dvorak. I have used Dvorak for about 8 years. It takes a while to get rolling, but it has definitely been worth it. I feel like typing is a much smoother activity now, and touch typing is easier. When I started out, I took old keyboards, popped off the keys, rearranged them, and used a software layout on the computer. That worked fine for a long time, and there was no expensive investment. Note that not all keyboards can be rearranged this way. More recently I bough I new clicky keyboard (mechanical switches) from Unicomp. These are like old IBM keyboards that are still in production in Kentucky USA. http://pckeyboard.com/ The Ultra Classic is a good one that has all the modern control keys. These keyboards have an old school feel that some will appreciate. It's not clear on the website, but at checkout time you can pick what layout you want. I picked Dvorak, and lo and behold I received in the mail a HARDWARE Dvorak keyboard. That means I just plug it in and it works, no configuration needed. That also means I don't have to worry about the layout being wrong at boot time or at a grub prompt. Nice! On my laptop it was not feasible to rearrange the keys. I much prefer to have the keys properly labeled, so I used keyboard labels and that has worked well so far. There are lots of different ways to do Dvorak. The hardest part is getting over the hump of the learning curve. Rickard -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120110062459.1bcd3...@mcfluffy.kasploosh.net
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 21:37, Lisi lisi.re...@gmail.com wrote: On Friday 06 January 2012 18:44:22 Raf Czlonka wrote: What's wrong with simply re-arrange the keys on your existing keyboard How do you do that? I know that there used to be IBM keyboards on which you could rearrange the keys, but I do not know of any modern equivalent. The physical keys do not need to be changed, just the keycaps. Every consumer keyboard can have the keycaps removed and replaced. I am a keyboard affectionado, I am currently typing on a Cherry Brown keyboard that I personally rearranged the keycaps on from Qwerty to Colemak. Photos upon request. If you need advice for removing and reinstalling the keycaps I can help. -- Dotan Cohen http://gibberish.co.il http://what-is-what.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAKDXFkP54kZEpL=3+iRBwZ98WJUUtb_Ab6r=hch1eq+kdh6...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 12:52, Camaleón noela...@gmail.com wrote: I'm using a GD80-3000 (gold contact keys) and won't replace it for any other but I don't know if Cherry produces Dvorak keyboards :-? If you mean G80-3000 then that is the keyboard that Das Keyboard is based on. Definitely one of the better keyboards out there! Which switches? Blues? If it is reds then I'm jealous! -- Dotan Cohen http://gibberish.co.il http://what-is-what.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/cakdxfknakyybzz81+zmo4z6dz0woxgvkue748hkeud422yd...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
On Sun, 08 Jan 2012 11:12:01 +0200, Dotan Cohen wrote: On Sat, Jan 7, 2012 at 12:52, Camaleón noela...@gmail.com wrote: I'm using a GD80-3000 (gold contact keys) and won't replace it for any other but I don't know if Cherry produces Dvorak keyboards :-? If you mean G80-3000 then that is the keyboard that Das Keyboard is based on. Definitely one of the better keyboards out there! Which switches? Blues? If it is reds then I'm jealous! Mmm, are there different switches types for the same keyboard? (...) Wow, Internet says there are many colored pieces behaving differently! Black, brown, white, clear, blue and red (it seems that red switches were manufactured for the Asian market and just in small quantities). What the...! That's a good engineered product. Okay, after having listened to different YouTube videos showing the differentiating clicking noise for blue and red ones (people has much free time...) I have to conclude that mine is blue. The clock, clock sound is very noticeable, this keyboard is indeed noisy but keys are softly pushed like pure silk between your fingers :-) Greetings, -- Camaleón -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/jec2cm$tvi$5...@dough.gmane.org
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
On Sun, Jan 8, 2012 at 14:32, Camaleón noela...@gmail.com wrote: Mmm, are there different switches types for the same keyboard? (...) Wow, Internet says there are many colored pieces behaving differently! Black, brown, white, clear, blue and red (it seems that red switches were manufactured for the Asian market and just in small quantities). What the...! That's a good engineered product. Okay, after having listened to different YouTube videos showing the differentiating clicking noise for blue and red ones (people has much free time...) I have to conclude that mine is blue. The clock, clock sound is very noticeable, this keyboard is indeed noisy but keys are softly pushed like pure silk between your fingers :-) The blues are very common, I have them on my numpad, but browns on the alphanumerics. The almost-best of both worlds! If you really want to see people who are crazy about keyboards, I invite you to Geekhack: http://geekhack.org/ -- Dotan Cohen http://gibberish.co.il http://what-is-what.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAKDXFkPY2Epmpn9tO=tXS=XK9VB=4i=t1uyvabpbpp9rsvq...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
--- On Sun, 1/7/12, Paul Johnson wrote: I like the app, I can certainly see improvement in my case. $ aptitude show klavaro Package: klavaro Version: 1.9.3-1 It's a shame this doesn't support USA Cherokee layout. It supports custom layouts, select Custom as Keyboard, you may be able to define a custom USA Cherokee layout. I've never tried defining custom layouts though, not sure how much effort is involved. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1326059340.53857.yahoomailclas...@web121906.mail.ne1.yahoo.com
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
On Fri, 06 Jan 2012 18:51:39 +, Raf Czlonka wrote: On Fri, Jan 06, 2012 at 06:37:16PM GMT, Camaleón wrote: That using a printed keyboard with a different layout (other than the one printed) is a completely mess unless you can memory the full keymap in your head and type without looking at the keyboard. That's why I suggested a blank as it won't confuse you or swap the keys. It's not really that hard to memorise the full keyboard layout and learn to touch type. I'm sure memorizing the keys or using a blank keyboard is an easy task for professional typists :-) Anyway, I first thought the user was looking for a confortable dvorak keyboard device and the answer is the same regardless the layout. I agree with your suggestion of Cherry keyboards, I'm using a GD80-3000 (gold contact keys) and won't replace it for any other but I don't know if Cherry produces Dvorak keyboards :-? Greetings, -- Camaleón -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/pan.2012.01.07.10.52...@gmail.com
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
On Sat, Jan 07, 2012 at 10:52:53AM GMT, Camaleón wrote: I'm sure memorizing the keys or using a blank keyboard is an easy task for professional typists :-) I disagree, you don't have to be a professional typist to memorise the keys on your keyboard. As long as you use a keyboard daily there's nothing stopping you. First step, without which you'll never succeed, is learning how to touch type. After you're comfortable with that switch to a blank keyboard, it will be awkward at first but you'll get used to it. You don't have to be a master touch typist, as long as you know how the keys relate to each other you can figure it out. Practice and it'll eventually come naturally. Anyway, I first thought the user was looking for a confortable dvorak keyboard device and the answer is the same regardless the layout. I agree with your suggestion of Cherry keyboards, I'm using a GD80-3000 (gold contact keys) and won't replace it for any other but I don't know if Cherry produces Dvorak keyboards :-? Also using Cherry both at work and home. Not sure but what you can do is to get Model M, Cherry or Das Keyboard, re-arrange the keys and change the keyboard layout. Regards, -- Raf -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120107112631.gb19...@linuxstuff.pl
[OT] Typing stuff (was: Dvorak Keyboards.)
On Sat, 07 Jan 2012 11:26:31 +, Raf Czlonka wrote: On Sat, Jan 07, 2012 at 10:52:53AM GMT, Camaleón wrote: I'm sure memorizing the keys or using a blank keyboard is an easy task for professional typists :-) I disagree, you don't have to be a professional typist to memorise the keys on your keyboard. As long as you use a keyboard daily there's nothing stopping you. First step, without which you'll never succeed, is learning how to touch type. After you're comfortable with that switch to a blank keyboard, it will be awkward at first but you'll get used to it. You don't have to be a master touch typist, as long as you know how the keys relate to each other you can figure it out. Practice and it'll eventually come naturally. Needless to say I never made any specific training for typing but by reading your words I must be a slowpoke person :-) I've been intensively typing for over the last 11 years (and also before but not daily and mostly for playing) but I haven't developed such typing skills though I would have loved to. I have to constantly look at the keyboard or I can royally fail ~90% of the clicked keys. Greetings, -- Camaleón -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/pan.2012.01.07.12.36...@gmail.com
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
On Fri, 2012-01-06 at 21:57 -0800, T Elcor wrote: --- On Fri, 1/6/12, Weaver wea...@riseup.net wrote: You could use a blank keyboard with a dvorak layout pretty effectively pretty quickly if you used the speakup feature to put speech on your sound card for those typing sessions. I'd suggest klavaro application to improve one's typing skills, it supports several popular layouts including dvorak. With a blank keyboard one would need to be able to blind type. I like the app, I can certainly see improvement in my case. $ aptitude show klavaro Package: klavaro Version: 1.9.3-1 It's a shame this doesn't support USA Cherokee layout. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
On Fri, Jan 06, 2012 at 06:44:22PM +, Raf Czlonka wrote: I guess I wasn't clear enough. This should have been: What's wrong with simply re-arrange the keys on your existing keyboard and changing the layout at the same time (I'm aware it won't be 100%)? This way one can try it out without spending money and changing their mind. Later it's time to start learning to touch type. What's wrong with rearranging your keys to match the layout? How about: 1. The notches on the 'f' and 'j' keys will be moved, making it difficult to find the home row without looking. 2. Some keyboard have differently shaped posts under 'f' and 'j' preventing them from being moved anyway. 3. Many keyboards have a natural curvature from the top row to the bottom row. Moving the keys around messes up that curvature, and requires the fingers to be lifted higher, creating more work to type, and thus defeating the purpose. 4. Moving your keys around will encourage you to look at your fingers while you type, preventing true touch typing, and slowing down your progress in speed and accuracy. I am a Dvorak typist, and have been for 6+ years. Personally, I don't understand why there are any characters printed on the keys to begin with. Competent musicians don't keep the notes on their instruments, so they know where to play 'C' or 'B-flat, for example, so why should they be on your typing keyboard. As a result, I'm a large proponent of the blank keyboards at http://daskeyboard.com (I own two). While there are hardware switches that allow you to switch between QWERTY and Dvorak for keyboards, I wouldn't recommend it. Just learn were the new characters are on the printed QWERTY layout, and start touch typing. -- . o . o . o . . o o . . . o . . . o . o o o . o . o o . . o o o o . o . . o o o o . o o o signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
On Saturday 07 January 2012 23:15:01 Aaron Toponce wrote: Competent musicians don't keep the notes on their instruments, What about incompetent musicians? Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201201072322.09096.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
On Sat, Jan 07, 2012 at 11:22:09PM +, Lisi wrote: On Saturday 07 January 2012 23:15:01 Aaron Toponce wrote: Competent musicians don't keep the notes on their instruments, What about incompetent musicians? Off-topic. -- . o . o . o . . o o . . . o . . . o . o o o . o . o o . . o o o o . o . . o o o o . o o o signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
Aaron Toponce wrote at 2012-01-07 17:15 -0600: Personally, I don't understand why there are any characters printed on the keys to begin with. I type fairly well with the Dvorak, but I *do* like the keys to be properly labeled. Why? Because I occasionally hit a key or shortcut with one hand while the other is using the mouse. Or perhaps type something in with one hand while holding a notebook with the other. Etcetera. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
On Sat, Jan 07, 2012 at 05:35:39PM -0600, green wrote: Aaron Toponce wrote at 2012-01-07 17:15 -0600: Personally, I don't understand why there are any characters printed on the keys to begin with. I type fairly well with the Dvorak, but I *do* like the keys to be properly labeled. Why? Because I occasionally hit a key or shortcut with one hand while the other is using the mouse. Or perhaps type something in with one hand while holding a notebook with the other. Etcetera. There is nothing preventing you from still looking at the keyboard, and clearly identifying where the key is located that you want to hit, even when the keys are blank. Piano players do this all the time. -- . o . o . o . . o o . . . o . . . o . o o o . o . o o . . o o o o . o . . o o o o . o o o signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
Aaron Toponce wrote at 2012-01-07 17:38 -0600: On Sat, Jan 07, 2012 at 05:35:39PM -0600, green wrote: Aaron Toponce wrote at 2012-01-07 17:15 -0600: Personally, I don't understand why there are any characters printed on the keys to begin with. I type fairly well with the Dvorak, but I *do* like the keys to be properly labeled. Why? Because I occasionally hit a key or shortcut with one hand while the other is using the mouse. Or perhaps type something in with one hand while holding a notebook with the other. Etcetera. There is nothing preventing you from still looking at the keyboard, and clearly identifying where the key is located that you want to hit, even when the keys are blank. Piano players do this all the time. I know where the keys are when my hands are in their proper positions, but I can not type the Dvorak 'k' (for example), with my right index finger without a labeled key (with consistent accuracy, across the various keys). And I play the piano but that is totally different (in my opinion). signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
On 01/07/2012 08:27 PM, green wrote: Aaron Toponce wrote at 2012-01-07 17:38 -0600: On Sat, Jan 07, 2012 at 05:35:39PM -0600, green wrote: Aaron Toponce wrote at 2012-01-07 17:15 -0600: Personally, I don't understand why there are any characters printed on the keys to begin with. I type fairly well with the Dvorak, but I *do* like the keys to be properly labeled. Why? Because I occasionally hit a key or shortcut with one hand while the other is using the mouse. Or perhaps type something in with one hand while holding a notebook with the other. Etcetera. There is nothing preventing you from still looking at the keyboard, and clearly identifying where the key is located that you want to hit, even when the keys are blank. Piano players do this all the time. I know where the keys are when my hands are in their proper positions, but I can not type the Dvorak 'k' (for example), with my right index finger without a labeled key (with consistent accuracy, across the various keys). And I play the piano but that is totally different (in my opinion). I haven't used the Dvorak k/b, but I have been typing since high school, where I took academic typing. This was taught on unmarked keyboards. Nevertheless, I still look at the keys on occasion, especially for the various characters above the numbers, and the various symbols at the right of the k/b. Just my 2¢. BTW: I strongly recommend that all school students take typing-- the skill has served me well over the past 60 years! BTW2: I also play piano, and I agree--the two keyboards are not at all similar! --doug -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4f092103.4050...@optonline.net
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
On Fri, 2012-01-06 at 21:57 -0800, T Elcor wrote: --- On Fri, 1/6/12, Weaver wea...@riseup.net wrote: You could use a blank keyboard with a dvorak layout pretty effectively pretty quickly if you used the speakup feature to put speech on your sound card for those typing sessions. I'd suggest klavaro application to improve one's typing skills, it supports several popular layouts including dvorak. With a blank keyboard one would need to be able to blind type. I like the app, I can certainly see improvement in my case. $ aptitude show klavaro Package: klavaro Version: 1.9.3-1 It's a shame this doesn't support USA Cherokee layout. When I was reading their site yesterday, they made a point of feedback being appreciated and wanting to implement new formats, so an approach in that direction could be well in order. It's not a native English speaking site so they may well be totally unaware of it. Regards, Weaver. -- Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. — Lucius Annæus Seneca. Terrorism, the new religion. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/203609be3c5fb4447c232f8e5f573802.squir...@fulvetta.riseup.net
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 19:39, Weaver wea...@riseup.net wrote: Hello all. I've been interested in this subject for some time, because of the greater typing speed potential and lowr incidence of RSI and have even delayed moving from two finger typing with an idea of implementing a Dvorak keyboard into the system. Who makes the best ones? Where can they be bought from. Thanks for any time and trouble. Regards, Weaver. I Weaver. I used Dvorak a bit then switched to Colemak. Both are supported on Debian. I continue to use my old keyboard, as actually learning to touch type is much more an advantage than the actual placement of the keys. You will find that Colemak is much more similar to Qwerty, and is therefore much easier to learn. -- Dotan Cohen http://gibberish.co.il http://what-is-what.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAKDXFkMF9mOsNVimAnkO4=jW+m1DtJrEjZEpdj36QBHa2DNw=w...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
On Saturday 07 January 2012 23:29:07 Aaron Toponce wrote: On Sat, Jan 07, 2012 at 11:22:09PM +, Lisi wrote: On Saturday 07 January 2012 23:15:01 Aaron Toponce wrote: Competent musicians don't keep the notes on their instruments, What about incompetent musicians? Off-topic. No, it isn't. You were using the analogy of typists and musicians. I was continuing the analogy. Some of us would not be able to manage at all without a marked keyboard, even if you chose to label those who cannot manage as incompetent. We have a right to exist and be taken into account. So marked keyboards are needed. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201201080741.35391.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
On Saturday 07 January 2012 23:38:00 Aaron Toponce wrote: Piano players do this all the time. off topic Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201201080742.12617.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
On Sat, 2012-01-07 at 23:22 -0800, Weaver wrote: It's a shame this doesn't support USA Cherokee layout. When I was reading their site yesterday, they made a point of feedback being appreciated and wanting to implement new formats, so an approach in that direction could be well in order. It's not a native English speaking site so they may well be totally unaware of it. No worries, to be fair, it's not an English keyboard layout. I'm attempting to learn my tribe's language, so I'm mostly interested in that layout for that purpose. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
On Fri, Jan 06, 2012 at 05:39:03PM GMT, Weaver wrote: Hello all. I've been interested in this subject for some time, because of the greater typing speed potential and lowr incidence of RSI and have even delayed moving from two finger typing with an idea of implementing a Dvorak keyboard into the system. Who makes the best ones? Where can they be bought from. Dvorak is a keyboard layout not a physical device. You can buy a keyboard with a Dvorak layout by default but it might this doesn't make sense if you're using more than one layout or you can buy a blank keyboard - without anything printed on it. What's wrong with simply using the existing keyboard with Dvorak layout? Regards, -- Raf -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120106182234.ga25...@linuxstuff.pl
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
On Friday 06 January 2012 18:22:35 Raf Czlonka wrote: What's wrong with simply using the existing keyboard with Dvorak layout? Because you wouldn't know where the letters are? I think that Weaver means a physical keyboard, not the choice of layout in your OS. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201201061832.06613.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
On Fri, 06 Jan 2012 18:22:35 +, Raf Czlonka wrote: On Fri, Jan 06, 2012 at 05:39:03PM GMT, Weaver wrote: Hello all. I've been interested in this subject for some time, because of the greater typing speed potential and lowr incidence of RSI and have even delayed moving from two finger typing with an idea of implementing a Dvorak keyboard into the system. Who makes the best ones? Where can they be bought from. Dvorak is a keyboard layout not a physical device. I'd say it can match both assertions. You can buy a keyboard with a Dvorak layout by default but it might this doesn't make sense if you're using more than one layout or you can buy a blank keyboard - without anything printed on it. What's wrong with simply using the existing keyboard with Dvorak layout? That using a printed keyboard with a different layout (other than the one printed) is a completely mess unless you can memory the full keymap in your head and type without looking at the keyboard. Greetings, -- Camaleón -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/pan.2012.01.06.18.37...@gmail.com
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
On Fri, Jan 06, 2012 at 06:32:06PM GMT, Lisi wrote: On Friday 06 January 2012 18:22:35 Raf Czlonka wrote: What's wrong with simply using the existing keyboard with Dvorak layout? Because you wouldn't know where the letters are? I think that Weaver means a physical keyboard, not the choice of layout in your OS. I guess I wasn't clear enough. This should have been: What's wrong with simply re-arrange the keys on your existing keyboard and changing the layout at the same time (I'm aware it won't be 100%)? This way one can try it out without spending money and changing their mind. Later it's time to start learning to touch type. Regards, -- Raf -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120106184422.ga29...@linuxstuff.pl
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
On Fri, Jan 06, 2012 at 06:37:16PM GMT, Camaleón wrote: That using a printed keyboard with a different layout (other than the one printed) is a completely mess unless you can memory the full keymap in your head and type without looking at the keyboard. That's why I suggested a blank as it won't confuse you or swap the keys. It's not really that hard to memorise the full keyboard layout and learn to touch type. Regards, -- Raf -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120106185139.gb29...@linuxstuff.pl
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
Weaver wrote at 2012-01-06 10:39 -0700: idea of implementing a Dvorak keyboard into the system. Who makes the best ones? Where can they be bought from. You can use any keyboard as Dvorak, but I prefer to have properly labeled keys, and none of marker, paint, and stickers last long enough. There are not many Dvorak keyboards available, but here some I have found (I have used none of these): http://typematrix.com http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus/ http://www.hooleon.com/collections/dvorak/products/keyboards-layouts-dvorak http://www.hooleon.com/collections/dvorak/products/keyboards-dvorak-simplified-touchdown-black-usb signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
On Friday 06 January 2012 18:44:22 Raf Czlonka wrote: What's wrong with simply re-arrange the keys on your existing keyboard How do you do that? I know that there used to be IBM keyboards on which you could rearrange the keys, but I do not know of any modern equivalent. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201201061937.21708.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
On Fri, Jan 06, 2012 at 07:37:21PM GMT, Lisi wrote: On Friday 06 January 2012 18:44:22 Raf Czlonka wrote: What's wrong with simply re-arrange the keys on your existing keyboard How do you do that? I know that there used to be IBM keyboards on which you could rearrange the keys, but I do not know of any modern equivalent. On laptops or cheap PS2/USB keyboards it's might be tricky. Model M keyboards as these are the ones you referring to, originally made by IBM, are still widely available either from your local second hand computer shop or from eBay or you can still buy them new from Unicomp. Cherry makes nice keyboards (the MX ones) or you can buy Das Keyboard (available blank as well as printed) which AFAIK is based on Cherry. Regards, -- Raf -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120106200756.ga30...@linuxstuff.pl
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
On Friday 06 January 2012 20:07:57 Raf Czlonka wrote: Model M keyboards as these are the ones you referring to, originally made by IBM, are still widely available either from your local second hand computer shop or from eBay or you can still buy them new from Unicomp. Thanks. Worth knowing! Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201201062227.15628.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
On Fri, 6 Jan 2012 09:39:03 -0800 Weaver wea...@riseup.net wrote: Hello all. I've been interested in this subject for some time, because of the greater typing speed potential and lowr incidence of RSI and have even delayed moving from two finger typing with an idea of implementing a Dvorak keyboard into the system. While I don't want to start a flame war, I'd suggest having a look at the colemak layout as well. This has some advantages (I feel) over Dvorak. Then again, it may all boil down to personal preference. http://colemak.com Who makes the best ones? Where can they be bought from. Thanks for any time and trouble. Regards, Weaver. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120106160749.7553b...@ws82.int.tlc
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
On Fri, 06 Jan 2012 18:22:35 +, Raf Czlonka wrote: On Fri, Jan 06, 2012 at 05:39:03PM GMT, Weaver wrote: Hello all. I've been interested in this subject for some time, because of the greater typing speed potential and lowr incidence of RSI and have even delayed moving from two finger typing with an idea of implementing a Dvorak keyboard into the system. Who makes the best ones? Where can they be bought from. Dvorak is a keyboard layout not a physical device. I'd say it can match both assertions. You can buy a keyboard with a Dvorak layout by default but it might this doesn't make sense if you're using more than one layout or you can buy a blank keyboard - without anything printed on it. What's wrong with simply using the existing keyboard with Dvorak layout? That using a printed keyboard with a different layout (other than the one printed) is a completely mess unless you can memory the full keymap in your head and type without looking at the keyboard. Yes, I need this keyboard to learn with. Thanks, Apologies to those I've been sending unintentional personal replies to. Regards, Weaver. -- Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. — Lucius Annæus Seneca. Terrorism, the new religion. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/603aa7b53ce907ab6b5ed246981f8a89.squir...@fruiteater.riseup.net
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
Weaver wrote at 2012-01-06 10:39 -0700: idea of implementing a Dvorak keyboard into the system. Who makes the best ones? Where can they be bought from. You can use any keyboard as Dvorak, but I prefer to have properly labeled keys, and none of marker, paint, and stickers last long enough. There are not many Dvorak keyboards available, but here some I have found (I have used none of these): http://typematrix.com http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus/ http://www.hooleon.com/collections/dvorak/products/keyboards-layouts-dvorak http://www.hooleon.com/collections/dvorak/products/keyboards-dvorak-simplified-touchdown-black-usb And thanks for these. Regards, Weaver. -- Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. — Lucius Annæus Seneca. Terrorism, the new religion. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/9f3d57df3c3e9d62e0c559d0684a99e2.squir...@fruiteater.riseup.net
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
On Fri, Jan 06, 2012 at 07:37:21PM GMT, Lisi wrote: On Friday 06 January 2012 18:44:22 Raf Czlonka wrote: What's wrong with simply re-arrange the keys on your existing keyboard How do you do that? I know that there used to be IBM keyboards on which you could rearrange the keys, but I do not know of any modern equivalent. On laptops or cheap PS2/USB keyboards it's might be tricky. Model M keyboards as these are the ones you referring to, originally made by IBM, are still widely available either from your local second hand computer shop or from eBay or you can still buy them new from Unicomp. Cherry makes nice keyboards (the MX ones) or you can buy Das Keyboard (available blank as well as printed) which AFAIK is based on Cherry. Thanks for the leads. Regards, Weaver -- Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. — Lucius Annæus Seneca. Terrorism, the new religion. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/505d4a466f0c4b2ce80f65cb0b715b3f.squir...@fruiteater.riseup.net
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
On Fri, 6 Jan 2012 09:39:03 -0800 Weaver wea...@riseup.net wrote: Hello all. I've been interested in this subject for some time, because of the greater typing speed potential and lowr incidence of RSI and have even delayed moving from two finger typing with an idea of implementing a Dvorak keyboard into the system. While I don't want to start a flame war, I'd suggest having a look at the colemak layout as well. This has some advantages (I feel) over Dvorak. Then again, it may all boil down to personal preference. http://colemak.com Thanks for that. Regards, Weaver. -- Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. — Lucius Annæus Seneca. Terrorism, the new religion. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/a463dbc2ecf40eb226c407daceef1095.squir...@fruiteater.riseup.net
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
You could use a blank keyboard with a dvorak layout pretty effectively pretty quickly if you used the speakup feature to put speech on your sound card for those typing sessions. Hit a wrong key, there's a backspace key to use. This for sighted people just enables another learning channel.On Fri, 6 Jan 2012, Weaver wrote: On Fri, 06 Jan 2012 18:22:35 +, Raf Czlonka wrote: On Fri, Jan 06, 2012 at 05:39:03PM GMT, Weaver wrote: Hello all. I've been interested in this subject for some time, because of the greater typing speed potential and lowr incidence of RSI and have even delayed moving from two finger typing with an idea of implementing a Dvorak keyboard into the system. Who makes the best ones? Where can they be bought from. Dvorak is a keyboard layout not a physical device. I'd say it can match both assertions. You can buy a keyboard with a Dvorak layout by default but it might this doesn't make sense if you're using more than one layout or you can buy a blank keyboard - without anything printed on it. What's wrong with simply using the existing keyboard with Dvorak layout? That using a printed keyboard with a different layout (other than the one printed) is a completely mess unless you can memory the full keymap in your head and type without looking at the keyboard. Yes, I need this keyboard to learn with. Thanks, Apologies to those I've been sending unintentional personal replies to. Regards, Weaver. Jude jdashiel-at-shellworld-dot-net http://www.shellworld.net/~jdashiel/nj.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/alpine.bsf.2.01.1201061950190.35...@freire1.furyyjbeyq.arg
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
You could use a blank keyboard with a dvorak layout pretty effectively pretty quickly if you used the speakup feature to put speech on your sound card for those typing sessions. Hit a wrong key, there's a backspace key to use. This for sighted people just enables another learning channel. Good tip. Thanks for that. Regards, Weaver. -- Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. — Lucius Annæus Seneca. Terrorism, the new religion. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/5f56deae0f2d33362ece8ac7b8ff1af2.squir...@fruiteater.riseup.net
Re: Dvorak Keyboards.
--- On Fri, 1/6/12, Weaver wea...@riseup.net wrote: You could use a blank keyboard with a dvorak layout pretty effectively pretty quickly if you used the speakup feature to put speech on your sound card for those typing sessions. I'd suggest klavaro application to improve one's typing skills, it supports several popular layouts including dvorak. With a blank keyboard one would need to be able to blind type. I like the app, I can certainly see improvement in my case. $ aptitude show klavaro Package: klavaro Version: 1.9.3-1 ... Description: Flexible touch typing tutor Klavaro is a simple tutor to teach correct typing, almost independently of language and very flexible regarding to new or unknown keyboard layouts. Its key features are: * Internationalization * Ready to use keyboard layouts * Keyboard layout editor * Basic course * Adaptability, velocity and fluidness exercises * Progress charts. Homepage: http://klavaro.sourceforge.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1325915860.72937.yahoomailclas...@web121901.mail.ne1.yahoo.com
