Re: FW: [CTTE #727708] Default init system for Debian

[Chris Bannister]

[Paul, please don't post in html]

On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 06:42:38AM -0500, Paul Cartwright wrote:
>On 02/13/2014 05:37 AM, Chris Bannister wrote:
> 
> I just did the "init=/lib/systemd/systemd" on the linux command line as
> a oncer and noticed.

You snipped what I noticed.

> Now:
> root@tal:~# ls -al /lib/systemd/
> total 260
> drwxr-xr-x  4 root root   4096 Jan 20 23:12 .
> drwxr-xr-x 15 root root  12288 Dec 28 20:52 ..
> drwxr-xr-x 11 root root  28672 Jan 26 22:08 system
> -rwxr-xr-x  1 root root 210380 Jan  1 07:24 systemd-udevd
> drwxr-xr-x  2 root root   4096 Dec 28 20:59 system-sleep
> 
>is that all you have ?? I just upgraded to jessie earlier this week, on
>my amd_64 system. Here is what I got:

I said I deleted a package, remember.

># ls -al /lib/systemd/

>-rwxr-xr-x  1 root root 1027296 Dec 31 12:54 systemd

a dpkg -S /lib/systemd/systemd

will show what package I deleted. The bits you snipped from my post
has changed the meaning slightly. :(


-- 
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing." --- Malcolm X


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Re: FW: [CTTE #727708] Default init system for Debian

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Thu, 2014-02-13 at 06:42 -0500, Paul Cartwright wrote:
> -rwxr-xr-x  1 root root  190488 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-journald

I at least would expect the f...ine journal. For Chris that much is
missing that I suspect he runs some kind of
transition-SysVinit-systemd-hybrid. This is something comparable to
brown sugar on a mari...nade sandwich given as a present now and later
the victim needs to pay for the brown sugar with lots of lifetime.



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Re: FW: [CTTE #727708] Default init system for Debian

[Paul Cartwright]

  
  
On 02/13/2014 05:37 AM, Chris Bannister
  wrote:


  I just did the "init=/lib/systemd/systemd" on the linux command line as
a oncer and noticed.

Now:
root@tal:~# ls -al /lib/systemd/
total 260
drwxr-xr-x  4 root root   4096 Jan 20 23:12 .
drwxr-xr-x 15 root root  12288 Dec 28 20:52 ..
drwxr-xr-x 11 root root  28672 Jan 26 22:08 system
-rwxr-xr-x  1 root root 210380 Jan  1 07:24 systemd-udevd
drwxr-xr-x  2 root root   4096 Dec 28 20:59 system-sleep

is that all you have ?? I just upgraded to jessie earlier this week,
on my amd_64 system. Here is what I got:

# ls -al /lib/systemd/
total 2792
drwxr-xr-x  6 root root    4096 Feb  9 15:06 .
drwxr-xr-x 19 root root    4096 Feb  9 16:04 ..
-rwxr-xr-x  1 root root 546 Dec 31 12:54 debian-fixup
drwxr-xr-x 18 root root   12288 Feb  9 20:00 system
-rwxr-xr-x  1 root root 1027296 Dec 31 12:54 systemd
-rwxr-xr-x  1 root root   18304 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-ac-power
-rwxr-xr-x  1 root root   34768 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-activate
-rwxr-xr-x  1 root root   38936 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-binfmt
-rwxr-xr-x  1 root root   88400 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-bootchart
-rwxr-xr-x  1 root root   26576 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-cgroups-agent
-rwxr-xr-x  1 root root   51152 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-cryptsetup
-rwxr-xr-x  1 root root   38936 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-fsck
-rwxr-xr-x  1 root root   67768 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-hostnamed
-rwxr-xr-x  1 root root   34768 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-initctl
-rwxr-xr-x  1 root root  190488 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-journald
-rwxr-xr-x  1 root root   71720 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-localed
-rwxr-xr-x  1 root root  243736 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-logind
-rwxr-xr-x  1 root root 363 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-logind-launch
-rwxr-xr-x  1 root root   47192 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-modules-load
-rwxr-xr-x  1 root root   22408 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-multi-seat-x
-rwxr-xr-x  1 root root   30744 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-quotacheck
-rwxr-xr-x  1 root root   30672 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-random-seed
-rwxr-xr-x  1 root root   55336 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-readahead
-rwxr-xr-x  1 root root   30744 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-remount-fs
-rwxr-xr-x  1 root root   22480 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-reply-password
-rwxr-xr-x  1 root root   67696 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-shutdown
-rwxr-xr-x  1 root root   42960 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-shutdownd
-rwxr-xr-x  1 root root   59416 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-sleep
-rwxr-xr-x  1 root root   43032 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-sysctl
-rwxr-xr-x  1 root root   80008 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-timedated
-rwxr-xr-x  1 root root   18304 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-timestamp
-rwxr-xr-x  1 root root  198808 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-udevd
-rwxr-xr-x  1 root root   34768 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-update-utmp
-rwxr-xr-x  1 root root   43032 Dec 31 12:54 systemd-user-sessions
drwxr-xr-x  2 root root    4096 Feb  9 15:06 system-generators
drwxr-xr-x  2 root root    4096 Dec 31 12:53 system-shutdown
drwxr-xr-x  2 root root    4096 Feb  9 15:56 system-sleep


-- 
Paul Cartwright
Registered Linux User #367800 and new counter #561587
  



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Re: FW: [CTTE #727708] Default init system for Debian

[Lisi Reisz]

On Wednesday 12 February 2014 12:13:23 Scott Ferguson wrote:
> (emphasis and guessed spelling correction mine).

Scott - the original strikes me as being correct, and 
oyur "correction" strikes me as being wrong.

Lisi


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Re: FW: [CTTE #727708] Default init system for Debian

[Scott Ferguson]

On 13/02/14 21:37, Chris Bannister wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 06:13:51PM +0100, Sven Joachim wrote:
>> On 2014-02-12 06:12 +0100, Chris Bannister wrote:

> 
> Does anyone knows who sells round tuits?


Yes. (disclaimer, I get a commission from them) - but my advice it to
buy the square ones and belt them round with a hammer. Much cheaper.

Kind regards



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Re: FW: [CTTE #727708] Default init system for Debian

[Chris Bannister]

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 06:13:51PM +0100, Sven Joachim wrote:
> On 2014-02-12 06:12 +0100, Chris Bannister wrote:
> 
> > I tried systemd - booted really fast, but it didn't honor any console
> > font settings I had. I groaned and reverted back realising, after seeing
> > quite a bit of discussion, that there was another setup to learn! In
> > this case the learning would be mandatory if I wanted to get my console
> > back the way I had it!
> 
> I'm surprised to read this, since systemd's vconsole-setup has been
> disabled in the Debian package for three years.  Does the console-setup
> package not work for you under systemd?

I just did the "init=/lib/systemd/systemd" on the linux command line as
a oncer and noticed.

Now:
root@tal:~# ls -al /lib/systemd/
total 260
drwxr-xr-x  4 root root   4096 Jan 20 23:12 .
drwxr-xr-x 15 root root  12288 Dec 28 20:52 ..
drwxr-xr-x 11 root root  28672 Jan 26 22:08 system
-rwxr-xr-x  1 root root 210380 Jan  1 07:24 systemd-udevd
drwxr-xr-x  2 root root   4096 Dec 28 20:59 system-sleep

So I must have uninstalled something, I'll try it again later, at
some stage, but I remember googling wondering how the console font
was configured, but then thought what else do I have worry about (access
to log info, etc) and decided that I'll look into it again later. :)

Does anyone knows who sells round tuits?

-- 
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing." --- Malcolm X


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Re: [D-community-offtopic] FW: [CTTE #727708] Default init system for Debian - Was: NSA into Debian distribution!

[latinfo]

>
> [latinfo, are you subscribed to this list? If so we could stop CC'ing
> you]

No, i am not subscribed, but it is not a problem if you CC me. Thanks

>
> On Thu, Feb 13, 2014 at 03:50:33AM +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>> On Wed, 2014-02-12 at 17:55 -0800, lati...@vcn.bc.ca wrote:
>> > Normally in Debian, users have a choice. It is why i am asking if some
>> > things have changed in Debian.
>>
>> Regarding to this nothing changed, you are free to become a packager and
>> to provide an alternative to systemd, by also maintaining all the
>> alternative packages, that might be needed, assumed there should be
>> conflicts for some packages, by your systemd alternative.

Obviously, you are one of regents of this Kingdom! Very smart Ralf, as
always!

> On the one hand it has been stated that systemd is only going to be the
> default init system and you are free to install which one you want
> whereas OTOH¹ there are developers who state that it will be too much
> work to package init scripts for every init system that Debian
> "supports"
>
> ¹ Means "On The Other hand" could get confusing if it is taken to mean
> "On The One hand" :)

Perfect, this is what i was in need to read!
Thanks so much Chris.

> --
> "If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
> who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the
> oppressing." --- Malcolm X


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Re: FW: [CTTE #727708] Default init system for Debian

[Sven Joachim]

On 2014-02-12 06:12 +0100, Chris Bannister wrote:

> I tried systemd - booted really fast, but it didn't honor any console
> font settings I had. I groaned and reverted back realising, after seeing
> quite a bit of discussion, that there was another setup to learn! In
> this case the learning would be mandatory if I wanted to get my console
> back the way I had it!

I'm surprised to read this, since systemd's vconsole-setup has been
disabled in the Debian package for three years.  Does the console-setup
package not work for you under systemd?

Cheers,
   Sven


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Re: FW: [CTTE #727708] Default init system for Debian

[yaro]

On Wednesday, February 12, 2014 04:50:49 PM Gian Uberto Lauri wrote:
> Ralf Mardorf writes:
>  > If we like it or dislike it, sysvinit / init scripts are dead.
> 
> Sounds like a Bad News(TM).

Why bad news? SysV init's been dead through most of the rest of *nix-land 
(Even most certified Unixen don't use it anymore.). Why do we need to stick 
with it? And initscripts are a slow and overcomplicated way to start up a 
system (With more than its share of technical problems.). It's much better to 
boot up via configuration, not scripting: Easier to maintain, much faster, and 
much more flexible.

Not to mention it's a modern feature Linux could make good use of. SysV's been 
a dead-end option for a long time now, it just took this long for viable 
alternatives to mature for Linux.

Conrad


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Re: FW: [CTTE #727708] Default init system for Debian

[Gian Uberto Lauri]

Ralf Mardorf writes:
 > If we like it or dislike it, sysvinit / init scripts are dead.

Sounds like a Bad News(TM).

-- 
 /\   ___Ubuntu: ancient
/___/\_|_|\_|__|___Gian Uberto Lauri_   African word
  //--\| | \|  |   Integralista GNUslamicomeaning "I can
\/ coltivatore diretto di software   not install
 già sistemista a tempo (altrui) perso...Debian"

Warning: gnome-config-daemon considered more dangerous than GOTO


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Re: FW: [CTTE #727708] Default init system for Debian

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Wed, 2014-02-12 at 16:18 +0100, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote:
> I think that Debian have a quite great percentage of tinkerers 
> which will be able to produce lot of documents to replace an init system 
> by another one. In fact, there already have some, which allowed me to 
> give a try to systemd monthes ago.
> Plus, there still are the other kernels that Debian supports. Hurd is 
> still unofficial ( I'm not sure about that ), but kFreeBSD is, and 
> systemd is not compatible with it, so there will be a not too hard way 
> to revert to sysVinit.

You are aware that once systemd is the default, then unlikely udev still
will be a separated package? It's not that easy to provide a distro with
several init systems. Arch did provide init scripts and systemd for a
while, but after some time init scripts was dropped.

Good luck with kFreeBSD. I've got a FreeBSD install, but installing
Debian's BSD did fail for me and even if it won't fail for you, don't
expect that BSD is a replacement for Linux. Ok, your thought is, that
because there's a BSD port, it still would be easy to reconfigure Debian
Linux to use init scripts, but I suspect you're mistaken.

I'm against systemd and pro init scripts, but I guess we have to live
with systemd in the future, resp. I'm already doing it, not for my
Debian, but for my more often used Arch Linux, since a long time ago.

There's nothing to discuss anymore, since the decision was made by the
Debian developers and IMO to hope that init scripts will survive for
those who are willing to reconfigure their Debian is an utopian dream.
If we like it or dislike it, sysvinit / init scripts are dead.


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Re: FW: [CTTE #727708] Default init system for Debian

[berenger . morel]

Le 12.02.2014 12:48, James Allsopp a écrit :

Hi Scott,
Fair enough with this point; "a. The decision *was* made by Debian
developers, as it should be. Those
 that do, get to make decisions about how they do 'it' - those that
use,
 feel free to use elsewhere - or do their own fork instead of getting
 others to do it for them."

Although I mentioned Gentoo, I've been using Debian for about 5 years
now and like it, basing all my new linux systems on it, I just
mentioned gentoo as contrast.

 When you say Default, the difficulty of opting out plays a factor
too. If something is so difficult to opt out of, it then becomes
Debian's de facto system. It is a worry, perhaps there's some
documentation of how to opt out, so I can look at this?


Do not worry about it. As a joke says on the internet, "Ubuntu" is an 
African word meaning "I can't configure Debian".


If I have no doubt that this is a joke and that there are Ubuntu power 
users, I think that Debian have a quite great percentage of tinkerers 
which will be able to produce lot of documents to replace an init system 
by another one. In fact, there already have some, which allowed me to 
give a try to systemd monthes ago.
Plus, there still are the other kernels that Debian supports. Hurd is 
still unofficial ( I'm not sure about that ), but kFreeBSD is, and 
systemd is not compatible with it, so there will be a not too hard way 
to revert to sysVinit.



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Re: FW: [CTTE #727708] Default init system for Debian

[Scott Ferguson]

On 12/02/14 22:48, James Allsopp wrote:
> Hi Scott,
> Fair enough with this point; "a. The decision *was* made by Debian
> developers, as it should be. Those
> that do, get to make decisions about how they do 'it' - those that use,
> feel free to use elsewhere - or do their own fork instead of getting
> others to do it for them."
> 
> Although I mentioned Gentoo, I've been using Debian for about 5 years
> now and like it, basing all my new linux systems on it, I just mentioned
> gentoo as contrast.

Contrast fine. Choice good. The sky is not falling, Linux (not the
kernel) will continue to change, and as sure as Mate, there will
continue to be distro/respins to scratch itches.

> 
> When you say Default, the difficulty of opting out plays a factor too.

So? - balance that against the difficulty of opting in to the various
alternatives prior. The tail should not wag the dog - distros should
continue to be shaped by developers - only the popularity (for what it's
worth) should be determined by users (which is what I am).
I haven't made the commitment to become a Debian developer, but I
appreciate that being one requires a default init system to develop around.

> If something is so difficult to opt out of, *if* then becomes Debian's de
> facto system. It is a worry, perhaps there's some documentation of how
> to opt out, so I can look at this?

(emphasis and guessed spelling correction mine). Sorry, I don't have a
link I can point you at - though I'm certain there'll be plenty soon.

> 
> Is there a document that summarises what developers thought the pros and
> cons of each were? 

I follow the developers mailing list, there's a good summary on
planet.debian.org (unfortunately my ISP has taken to hijacking that URL
today).

> I've read LP's comments on systemd, but that hardly
> falls into the balanced camp.

Or even relevant (LP's comments), given their luxury of sitting in the
observers pavilion?

Kind regards.

P.S. I do appreciate your response, but please don't top post (mutter,
grouch, mutter)


> 
> James
> 
> 
> On 12 February 2014 11:36, Scott Ferguson
>  > wrote:
> 
> On 12/02/14 20:27, James Allsopp wrote:
> > Hi,
> > After reading through all the pros and cons, it seems that there
> isn't a
> > good replacement at all, so it would be better to wait. Admittedly
> I use
> > OpenRC on my gentoo machine and it's fine. Systemd seems to
> violate too
> > many Unix principles and Upstart has problems with the canonical
> > copyright licence issues. I'd hate to see Linux get pulled apart
> between
> > Red Hat and Canonical, so it's important that Debian doesn't act
> > precipitously.
> > James
> 
> a. The decision *was* made by Debian developers, as it should be. Those
> that do, get to make decisions about how they do 'it' - those that use,
> feel free to use elsewhere - or do their own fork instead of getting
> others to do it for them.
> b. you're flogging a dead horse, the decision *has* been made.
> c. it's the *default* init system for *Jessie*. Emphasis on default,
> Debian's commitment to choice remains unaltered.
> 
> In a futile effort to forestall pointless and unproductive "opinions"
> and the debatable 'right' of people to hold and express them.
> 
> NOTES: I'm not commenting specifically on your post James, it's just a
> point in the thread to inject my opinion in support of the decision by
> Debian Technical. Apropos of little - interesting how many of the, um,
> most passionate views are expressed by those that *don't* use Debian
> (have deep emotional commitment will travel?).
> If it's relevant - I don't prefer systemd, but I do prefer the
> Debian way.
> 
> Kind regards.
> 



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Re: FW: [CTTE #727708] Default init system for Debian

[Chris Bannister]

[James, please don top post on this mailing list.]

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 11:48:37AM +, James Allsopp wrote:
> Is there a document that summarises what developers thought the pros and
> cons of each were? I've read LP's comments on systemd, but that hardly
> falls into the balanced camp.

A quick google search produces these:
https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/systemd
https://wiki.debian.org/systemd
https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/upstart
https://wiki.debian.org/ReleaseGoals/systemd
https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/openrc
etc. etc. etc.

Also browse the debian-devel mailing list archives for an exhaustive
"discussion" on the issues.

-- 
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing." --- Malcolm X


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Re: FW: [CTTE #727708] Default init system for Debian

[James Allsopp]

Hi Scott,
Fair enough with this point; "a. The decision *was* made by Debian
developers, as it should be. Those
that do, get to make decisions about how they do 'it' - those that use,
feel free to use elsewhere - or do their own fork instead of getting
others to do it for them."

Although I mentioned Gentoo, I've been using Debian for about 5 years now
and like it, basing all my new linux systems on it, I just mentioned gentoo
as contrast.

When you say Default, the difficulty of opting out plays a factor too. If
something is so difficult to opt out of, it then becomes Debian's de facto
system. It is a worry, perhaps there's some documentation of how to opt
out, so I can look at this?

Is there a document that summarises what developers thought the pros and
cons of each were? I've read LP's comments on systemd, but that hardly
falls into the balanced camp.

James


On 12 February 2014 11:36, Scott Ferguson <
scott.ferguson.debian.u...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 12/02/14 20:27, James Allsopp wrote:
> > Hi,
> > After reading through all the pros and cons, it seems that there isn't a
> > good replacement at all, so it would be better to wait. Admittedly I use
> > OpenRC on my gentoo machine and it's fine. Systemd seems to violate too
> > many Unix principles and Upstart has problems with the canonical
> > copyright licence issues. I'd hate to see Linux get pulled apart between
> > Red Hat and Canonical, so it's important that Debian doesn't act
> > precipitously.
> > James
>
> a. The decision *was* made by Debian developers, as it should be. Those
> that do, get to make decisions about how they do 'it' - those that use,
> feel free to use elsewhere - or do their own fork instead of getting
> others to do it for them.
> b. you're flogging a dead horse, the decision *has* been made.
> c. it's the *default* init system for *Jessie*. Emphasis on default,
> Debian's commitment to choice remains unaltered.
>
> In a futile effort to forestall pointless and unproductive "opinions"
> and the debatable 'right' of people to hold and express them.
>
> NOTES: I'm not commenting specifically on your post James, it's just a
> point in the thread to inject my opinion in support of the decision by
> Debian Technical. Apropos of little - interesting how many of the, um,
> most passionate views are expressed by those that *don't* use Debian
> (have deep emotional commitment will travel?).
> If it's relevant - I don't prefer systemd, but I do prefer the Debian way.
>
> Kind regards.
>
> 
>
>
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>
>

Re: FW: [CTTE #727708] Default init system for Debian

[Scott Ferguson]

On 12/02/14 20:27, James Allsopp wrote:
> Hi,
> After reading through all the pros and cons, it seems that there isn't a
> good replacement at all, so it would be better to wait. Admittedly I use
> OpenRC on my gentoo machine and it's fine. Systemd seems to violate too
> many Unix principles and Upstart has problems with the canonical
> copyright licence issues. I'd hate to see Linux get pulled apart between
> Red Hat and Canonical, so it's important that Debian doesn't act
> precipitously.
> James

In a futile effort to forestall pointless and unproductive "opinions"
and the debatable 'right' of, people/users of the work of others, to
hold and "express" them (pissing up a rope?).

A. The decision *was* made by Debian developers, as it should be. Those
that do, get to make decisions about how they do 'it' - those that use,
feel free to use elsewhere - or do their own fork instead of getting
others to do it for them.
B. Those that object - you're flogging a dead horse, the decision *has*
been made. Rail elsewhere, take your ball and go home, move on etc.
C. It's the *default* init system for *Jessie*. Emphasis on default,
Debian's commitment to choice remains unaltered.

NOTES: I'm not commenting specifically on your post James, it's just an
arbitrary point in the thread to inject *my* opinion in support of the
decision by Debian Technical.
Apropos of little - interesting how many of the, um, most passionate
views are expressed by those that *don't* use Debian (have deep
emotional commitment will travel?).
If it's relevant - I don't prefer systemd, but I do prefer and support
the Debian way.

Kind regards.




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Re: FW: [CTTE #727708] Default init system for Debian

[Scott Ferguson]

On 12/02/14 20:27, James Allsopp wrote:
> Hi,
> After reading through all the pros and cons, it seems that there isn't a
> good replacement at all, so it would be better to wait. Admittedly I use
> OpenRC on my gentoo machine and it's fine. Systemd seems to violate too
> many Unix principles and Upstart has problems with the canonical
> copyright licence issues. I'd hate to see Linux get pulled apart between
> Red Hat and Canonical, so it's important that Debian doesn't act
> precipitously.
> James

a. The decision *was* made by Debian developers, as it should be. Those
that do, get to make decisions about how they do 'it' - those that use,
feel free to use elsewhere - or do their own fork instead of getting
others to do it for them.
b. you're flogging a dead horse, the decision *has* been made.
c. it's the *default* init system for *Jessie*. Emphasis on default,
Debian's commitment to choice remains unaltered.

In a futile effort to forestall pointless and unproductive "opinions"
and the debatable 'right' of people to hold and express them.

NOTES: I'm not commenting specifically on your post James, it's just a
point in the thread to inject my opinion in support of the decision by
Debian Technical. Apropos of little - interesting how many of the, um,
most passionate views are expressed by those that *don't* use Debian
(have deep emotional commitment will travel?).
If it's relevant - I don't prefer systemd, but I do prefer the Debian way.

Kind regards.




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Re: FW: [CTTE #727708] Default init system for Debian

[James Allsopp]

Hi,
After reading through all the pros and cons, it seems that there isn't a
good replacement at all, so it would be better to wait. Admittedly I use
OpenRC on my gentoo machine and it's fine. Systemd seems to violate too
many Unix principles and Upstart has problems with the canonical copyright
licence issues. I'd hate to see Linux get pulled apart between Red Hat and
Canonical, so it's important that Debian doesn't act precipitously.
James


On 12 February 2014 08:06, Tom H  wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 12:12 AM, Chris Bannister
>  wrote:
> >
> > I tried systemd - booted really fast, but it didn't honor any console
> > font settings I had. I groaned and reverted back realising, after seeing
> > quite a bit of discussion, that there was another setup to learn! In
> > this case the learning would be mandatory if I wanted to get my console
> > back the way I had it!
> >
> > I expect that helping people configure and use systemd will become part
> > of the normal business of this mailing list.
>
> I would've expected systemd to respect Debian's native console setup
> (and this might be worthy of a bug report).
>
> systemd uses "/etc/vconsole.conf".
>
>
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>
>

Re: FW: [CTTE #727708] Default init system for Debian

[Tom H]

On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 12:12 AM, Chris Bannister
 wrote:
>
> I tried systemd - booted really fast, but it didn't honor any console
> font settings I had. I groaned and reverted back realising, after seeing
> quite a bit of discussion, that there was another setup to learn! In
> this case the learning would be mandatory if I wanted to get my console
> back the way I had it!
>
> I expect that helping people configure and use systemd will become part
> of the normal business of this mailing list.

I would've expected systemd to respect Debian's native console setup
(and this might be worthy of a bug report).

systemd uses "/etc/vconsole.conf".


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Re: FW: [CTTE #727708] Default init system for Debian

[Tom H]

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 5:24 PM, Andrei POPESCU
 wrote:
>
> Let the flames begin...

Please no!

The -devel@ and -ctte@ lists already have some, most likely
non-Debian-using crazies, posting there so the d-u members who want to
"discuss" this should feel free to join the delirium there and
preserve this list for technical issues...


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Re: FW: [CTTE #727708] Default init system for Debian

[Chris Bannister]

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 11:55:17PM +, Brian wrote:
> On Tue 11 Feb 2014 at 23:45:45 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, 2014-02-12 at 00:24 +0200, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> > > Let the flames begin...
> > 
> > I'm aware that it isn't off-topic, anyway, I strongly recommend to
> > discuss systemd at
> > http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic .
> 
> On- or off-topic the invitation issued appears to be a blatent attempt
> to disrupt the normal business of this mailing list. I am surprised and
> dismayed considering the source it purported to come from.

I didn't read it as an invitation, but as a statement/observation.
(Have you read some of the language in that bug report? Atrocious! :) )

I tried systemd - booted really fast, but it didn't honor any console
font settings I had. I groaned and reverted back realising, after seeing
quite a bit of discussion, that there was another setup to learn! In
this case the learning would be mandatory if I wanted to get my console
back the way I had it!

I expect that helping people configure and use systemd will become part
of the normal business of this mailing list.

-- 
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing." --- Malcolm X


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Re: FW: [CTTE #727708] Default init system for Debian

[Brian]

On Tue 11 Feb 2014 at 23:45:45 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote:

> On Wed, 2014-02-12 at 00:24 +0200, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> > Let the flames begin...
> 
> I'm aware that it isn't off-topic, anyway, I strongly recommend to
> discuss systemd at
> http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic .

On- or off-topic the invitation issued appears to be a blatent attempt
to disrupt the normal business of this mailing list. I am surprised and
dismayed considering the source it purported to come from.

> Once a pros and cons systemd discussion develops its own dynamics and
> this most certainly will happen, the list will be spammed by hundreds of
> useless mails. Furthermore, wouldn't it be easier to link to the many
> flames about systemd, that are already available by mailing list
> archives?

I agree ; if the past is anything to go by your prediction could turn
out to be correct. However, people are generally sensible so, after
absorbing Don Armstrong's post and reading all the discussion in bug
#727708, they may resist the temptation to contribute to the flamage.

> The pros and cons today are still the same as they were a long time ago.

It would be astounding if any responses had anything novel or gripping
to say on the subject.


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Re: FW: [CTTE #727708] Default init system for Debian

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Wed, 2014-02-12 at 00:24 +0200, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> Let the flames begin...

I'm aware that it isn't off-topic, anyway, I strongly recommend to
discuss systemd at
http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic .

Once a pros and cons systemd discussion develops its own dynamics and
this most certainly will happen, the list will be spammed by hundreds of
useless mails. Furthermore, wouldn't it be easier to link to the many
flames about systemd, that are already available by mailing list
archives?

The pros and cons today are still the same as they were a long time ago.




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FW: [CTTE #727708] Default init system for Debian

[Andrei POPESCU]

Let the flames begin...

- Forwarded message from Don Armstrong  -

Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 11:39:04 -0800
From: Don Armstrong 
To: debian-devel-annou...@lists.debian.org
Subject: [CTTE #727708] Default init system for Debian
Mail-Followup-To: debian-c...@lists.debian.org
User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15)

The technical committee was asked in #727708 to decide which init
system would be the default init system for Debian. The decision is
below:

 RESOLUTION 

We exercise our power to decide in cases of overlapping jurisdiction
(6.1.2) by asserting that the default init system for Linux
architectures in jessie should be systemd.

Should the project pass a General Resolution before the release of
"jessie" asserting a "position statement about issues of the day" on
init systems, that position replaces the outcome of this vote and is
adopted by the Technical Committee as its own decision.

 END OF RESOLUTION 

Additional discussions regarding the technical policy necessary for
implementing this decision are anticipated and will be carried out via
the normal technical policy procedure.

Please see http://bugs.debian.org/727708 for discussion of
this bug.

-- 
Don Armstrong  http://www.donarmstrong.com

If I had a letter, sealed it in a locked vault and hid the vault
somewhere in New York. Then told you to read the letter, thats not
security, thats obscurity. If I made a letter, sealed it in a vault,
gave you the blueprints of the vault, the combinations of 1000 other
vaults, access to the best lock smiths in the world, then told you to
read the letter, and you still can't, thats security.
 -- Bruce Schneier



- End forwarded message -

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