Re: How Do You Know If It Works In Linux?
On Thu, Oct 02, 2003 at 09:18:38AM +0800, csj wrote: > At Wed, 1 Oct 2003 05:09:56 +0100, Pigeon wrote: > > ISTR from http://www.ftdi.com - who make USB-to-some-easier-format > > conversion chips - the answer is 'something straightforward'. Long > > time since I looked at the site though. Chances are it would be > > recognised as a USB device and you'd need to symlink it to /dev/modem. > > It might depend on who made the conversion chip to some extent. > > Do you mean my serial modem is going to become a USB modem? Er... As far as the kernel is concerned, it'll be a USB device. But that doesn't really need to concern you, I think. As far as userland stuff is concerned, it'll be an ordinary serial modem, just you talk to it via something other than /dev/ttySx. -- Pigeon Be kind to pigeons Get my GPG key here: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x21C61F7F pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: How Do You Know If It Works In Linux?
At Wed, 1 Oct 2003 05:09:56 +0100, Pigeon wrote: [...] > > How would Linux recognize it? What would be the modem port? > > ISTR from http://www.ftdi.com - who make USB-to-some-easier-format > conversion chips - the answer is 'something straightforward'. Long > time since I looked at the site though. Chances are it would be > recognised as a USB device and you'd need to symlink it to /dev/modem. > It might depend on who made the conversion chip to some extent. Do you mean my serial modem is going to become a USB modem? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How Do You Know If It Works In Linux?
On Sunday 28 September 2003 02:35 pm, alex wrote: > Suppose someone wants to put together or buy a computer ---something > that is fully compatible with Linux.no makedo patches such as > for winmodems or other components, etc---how can you make sure > you're getting what you want? Nobody mentioned this that I saw, so I'll point this out: In retail computer stores, you can look for hardware that claims to be both Windows and Mac compatible. Usually if it can do those two, it will not be overly dependent on the CPU or driver, and it will at least be possible for a Linux driver to be written. I often use this to narrow the field. And, in my experience, amazingly enough, the combination of "available in retail stores" and "possible to write a driver for Linux" makes it really likely that one already exists. To make sure, just search for the exact model number and the word "linux" in google. Like this: "Officejet 6110" linux Often enough, you'll get a hit. This worked for printers and scanners for me, but I'm not sure how useful it would be for, say, video cards. > What are the indicators that will tell us whether the components are > fully Linux compatible, whether they are part of a ready to run > Windows computer, a systemless computer, a bare bones box, or one > that you build from scratch? You will also find that "brand name" components are often more likely to be specifically supported by drivers (really the factor in question is whether they are popular enough to motivate developers). But if the manufacturer withholds crucial specs and/or the system in question is difficult to reverse-engineer and/or the system is dependent to a large degree on driver software, this will usually be a more significant indicator. > Is there something that prevents manufacturers from clearly stating > that a product is fully suitable for Linux? It's done for MS > Windows. Is this some kind of legal or technical issue, or is it > some kind of 'business arrangement'? Others have mentioned the more paranoia-inducing reasons (which are probably true :-( ), but I'll also mention this -- the beauty of the free- licensed open-source development model is user/developer support. That is, people who are both users and developers handle the support, as on this list. But, just as every piece of GPL carries that "NO WARRANTY" disclaimer, a company can't REALLY say they support Linux unless they are willing to do telephone tech support for it, just like they do for the proprietary systems. And, as I'm sure you've heard, that's expensive. Add to that the fact that Linux is *rarely* the same exact beast -- since the model also encourages "adaptive radiation", that could be a large and intractable problem. One irate, deep-pocketed customer could seriously sue them if support was claimed, but it didn't work! Considering that we in the community actually prefer to see GPL drivers -- usually written by the community -- than closed source drivers provided by the manufacturer, we would be pretty demanding to assume that the company should take formal legal responsibility for our work (when, as the disclaimer says, we ourselves emphatically won't -- it's strictly "at your own risk"). Of course, in *practice*, that reasoning might not pan out -- it's very likely that the GPL driver is going to be *more* reliable than anything the company would be able to turn out on an under-resourced closed-source project. But it's still a risk that they have no real control over. What we need is a way for the company to be able to point to the Linux support effort *without* taking that responsibility. For me, at least, that would be good enough. (Note that as a practical matter, even if the company writes a driver and releases it under the GPL, they still can't really be responsible for it, since it will evolve past what they delivered -- or else there would've been little point in opening the source in the first place, from their point of view). > Wouldn't it be nice if there was a notice or disclaimer that clearly > stated, "100% suitable for Linux" or "Not suitable for Linux" It would, but they could be held liable for those statements, and the kind of guarantee you get with Linux is not usually that solid. There is (or was) an effort to create an "open hardware" certification mark that would simply indicate that the company had provided adequate information to the community to write a driver. I'm not sure how that has turned out, but I certainly haven't seen them popping up all over the place. > With the universal recognition and use of Linux as an operating Ah, "universal". I don't think we're quite *there* yet. I still meet people who don't know what Linux is. > system, it seems strange that you don't see components or a whole > computer clearly identified as fully suitable for Linux even though > it may have MS Windows installed. I *have* seen cookbook-like reviews, in which currently available compon
Re: How Do You Know If It Works In Linux?
On Wed, Oct 01, 2003 at 06:40:07AM +0800, csj wrote: > At Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:53:43 +0100, Pigeon wrote: > > A point about USB and modems is that USB is fast enough to make it > > possible to implement an external winmodem. It may well be > > safer/cheaper to use an RS232 modem with an RS232-to-USB converter. > > (having found one of those that's supported in Linux :-) ) > > Interesting. But is the probability of a RS232-to-USB converter > being Linux-compatible higher than the probability of a USB modem > being compatible? If the USB modem is an external winmodem, then definitely yes, as all you have to do is blurge data in and out without trying to replicate a complex closed-source DSP algorithm. > Is it just a dumb cable with a serial port > connector on one end and a USB connector on the other? Or is > there some fancy electronics involved (e.g. a chip embedded on > the serial side)? The latter. USB and RS232 are way different and there is no chance of building a simple passive converter. > How would Linux recognize it? What would be > the modem port? ISTR from http://www.ftdi.com - who make USB-to-some-easier-format conversion chips - the answer is 'something straightforward'. Long time since I looked at the site though. Chances are it would be recognised as a USB device and you'd need to symlink it to /dev/modem. It might depend on who made the conversion chip to some extent. -- Pigeon Be kind to pigeons Get my GPG key here: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x21C61F7F pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Boot Knoppix (was Re: How Do You Know If It Works In Linux?)
on Sun, Sep 28, 2003 at 06:23:47PM -0500, Kent West ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > alex wrote: > > >Suppose someone wants to put together or buy a computer ---something > >that is fully compatible with Linux.no makedo patches such as for > >winmodems or other components, etc---how can you make sure you're > >getting what you want? > > > >What are the indicators that will tell us whether the components are > >fully Linux compatible, whether they are part of a ready to run > >Windows computer, a systemless computer, a bare bones box, or one that > >you build from scratch? > Last time I bought a computer, I had the sales guy fire it up with my > Knoppix CD in it. I wasn't able to test the modem, but I was able to > run pppconfig and see that the modem was not autodetected. Everything > else, sound, ethernet, etc (don't believe I tested APM) worked fine. > Of course, this won't work for individual pieces if you're building > your own, and may not work depending on what test-setup is available > at the store, or if you're buying online. As a side benefit, I was > able to "sell" the sales guy on Knoppix. (I may have even left him a > copy; I can't remember). I have to second this strongly. If you're buying a system from a small vendor, leave a copy of the Knoppix disk with them for compatibility testing. Essentially: boot the system and try everything you can -- graphics, disk, network, modem, sound, USB, Firewire. You should be able to get a pretty good idea of everything that does or doesn't work properly. If thet system doesn't meet your expectations, explain to the vendor specifically why you're rejecting it. Additionally: the 'system-info' script found at the URL below will give you a useful catalog of the configuration and capabilities of the system, run it and save output. http://twiki.iwethey.org/Main/LinuxSystemInfoScript There is a similar tool packaged for Debian, though the name slips my mind. I prefer the output selection/formatting of the system-info script. Peace. -- Karsten M. Self <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What Part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? At the sound of the toner, boycott Lexmark: trade restraint via DMCA. http://news.com.com/2100-1023-979791.html signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: How Do You Know If It Works In Linux?
on Mon, Sep 29, 2003 at 09:27:38AM +0200, Michael Schulz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > No offense, but while I find that companies like HP, Dell, IBM, and > > other major vendors are more than happy to sell servers and > > workstations with Linux, the laptop support absolutely sucks. > > You have to understand that these decisions are market driven. We're > on that way to be there, but I agree not fully there. But we're > working on that. Michael, again, no offense, but this is flat wrong. Time and again, court cases, news leaks, investigations, and in very rare cases, honest industry insiders, have revealed that alternatives to legacy MS Windows on the desktop or laptop, including the alternative of nothing, are proscribed by marketing and licensing practices on the part of Microsoft. So if you want me to believe that Bill's got Carly by the balls, I'll find that far easier to believe than any myth of "market driven" decisionmaking. Your bluff is called. Mind, your efforts to correct this situation are gratefully appreciated, and there *are* now sources for GNU/Linux-preload or naked laptops. Peace. -- Karsten M. Self <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What Part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Integrity, we've heard of it: http://www.theregister.co.uk/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: How Do You Know If It Works In Linux?
csj writes: > The only question should be the kernel version. The NDA-conscious > manufacturer could always code for the latest stable versions of the > kernel.org kernel (the plain, unpatched, official Linus Torvalds vanilla > version of Linux). True for kernel modules and the rare userland program that interacts with the kernel. All others should code for the latest stable glibc. -- John Hasler [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dancing Horse Hill Elmwood, Wisconsin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How Do You Know If It Works In Linux?
At Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:25:01 -0400, Daniel B. wrote: > > Roberto Sanchez wrote: > > > > alex wrote: > > ... > > > > > Is there something that prevents manufacturers from clearly > > > stating that a product is fully suitable for Linux? It's > > > done for MS Windows. Is this some kind of legal or > > > technical issue, or is it some kind of 'business > > > arrangement'? > > > > > Fear of losing their sweet pricing deals from M$. > > It probably isn't fair to leave out the fact that there are > more versions of Linux than of Windows. If something is > compatible with Linux, there is still the question of _which_ > versions (which kernel version, which distribution, which > version of a given distribution). The only question should be the kernel version. The NDA-conscious manufacturer could always code for the latest stable versions of the kernel.org kernel (the plain, unpatched, official Linus Torvalds vanilla version of Linux). That would mean just coding for, say, kernel 2.2.25 or 2.4.22. It would be the distros' jobs to ensure that their kernels and userland tools are compatible with those releases. This is what a Linux-friendly (even if in binary form only) manufacturer like nVidia is doing. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How Do You Know If It Works In Linux?
At Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:53:43 +0100, Pigeon wrote: > > On Mon, Sep 29, 2003 at 10:11:04AM +0800, csj wrote: > > At Sun, 28 Sep 2003 14:43:35 -0800, Greg Madden wrote: > > > As with most questions, ask google. There are numerous sites > > > and hardware compatability lists that have been created. It is > > > a good idea to check the hw compatability lists first, but also > > > check out the vendors web site to see how well supported an > > > item is and how easy it is to use the support. > > > > This will only work for expensive or really dumb products like > > PS/2 keyboards. > > Depends to some extent how you choose your keywords. It may be useful > to include terms like "fail" or "doesn't work" and see if you find > people unable to get that hardware working under Linux. > > > A case in point: I'm trying to google for > > Linux-compatible USB modems (dialup). The only recommendations I > > could find are for the ultra-expensive USR modems. With one or > > two exceptions, I couldn't find any Linux-specific mention for > > the more affordable Asian (specifically Taiwanese) branded > > modems. The one exception I can remember is for a DLink modem > > that had a different model number. I don't have the slightest > > clue if the recommended model is simply a renumbered version of > > the models available at our local computer shops. > > A point about USB and modems is that USB is fast enough to make it > possible to implement an external winmodem. It may well be > safer/cheaper to use an RS232 modem with an RS232-to-USB converter. > (having found one of those that's supported in Linux :-) ) Interesting. But is the probability of a RS232-to-USB converter being Linux-compatible higher than the probability of a USB modem being compatible? Is it just a dumb cable with a serial port connector on one end and a USB connector on the other? Or is there some fancy electronics involved (e.g. a chip embedded on the serial side)? How would Linux recognize it? What would be the modem port? FWIW I have a USB to Parallel Port converter that works under Linux but not under Win98. (The device is advertised to work with Win98 2nd ed. and higher.) The converted itself is recognized as a USB device, an IEEE (IRC) 1284 controller. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How Do You Know If It Works In Linux?
Roberto Sanchez wrote: > > alex wrote: > ... > > > Is there something that prevents manufacturers from clearly stating that > > a product is fully suitable for Linux? It's done for MS Windows. Is > > this some kind of legal or technical issue, or is it some kind of > > 'business arrangement'? > > > Fear of losing their sweet pricing deals from M$. It probably isn't fair to leave out the fact that there are more versions of Linux than of Windows. If something is compatible with Linux, there is still the question of _which_ versions (which kernel version, which distribution, which version of a given distribution). Daniel -- Daniel Barclay [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How Do You Know If It Works In Linux?
Pigeon said on Tue, Sep 30, 2003 at 02:53:43PM +0100: > A point about USB and modems is that USB is fast enough to make it > possible to implement an external winmodem. It may well be > safer/cheaper to use an RS232 modem with an RS232-to-USB converter. > (having found one of those that's supported in Linux :-) ) USB-RS232 adapters are not to hard to find Linux support for. For example, the Keyspan ones work great. I use them at home all the time (on PPC and IA32). M pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: How Do You Know If It Works In Linux?
On Mon, Sep 29, 2003 at 10:11:04AM +0800, csj wrote: > At Sun, 28 Sep 2003 14:43:35 -0800, Greg Madden wrote: > > As with most questions, ask google. There are numerous sites > > and hardware compatability lists that have been created. It is > > a good idea to check the hw compatability lists first, but also > > check out the vendors web site to see how well supported an > > item is and how easy it is to use the support. > > This will only work for expensive or really dumb products like > PS/2 keyboards. Depends to some extent how you choose your keywords. It may be useful to include terms like "fail" or "doesn't work" and see if you find people unable to get that hardware working under Linux. > A case in point: I'm trying to google for > Linux-compatible USB modems (dialup). The only recommendations I > could find are for the ultra-expensive USR modems. With one or > two exceptions, I couldn't find any Linux-specific mention for > the more affordable Asian (specifically Taiwanese) branded > modems. The one exception I can remember is for a DLink modem > that had a different model number. I don't have the slightest > clue if the recommended model is simply a renumbered version of > the models available at our local computer shops. A point about USB and modems is that USB is fast enough to make it possible to implement an external winmodem. It may well be safer/cheaper to use an RS232 modem with an RS232-to-USB converter. (having found one of those that's supported in Linux :-) ) -- Pigeon Be kind to pigeons Get my GPG key here: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x21C61F7F pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: How do you know if it works in Linux?
Here are all the details. In regional Australia, we encounter problems that our city counterparts never experience. If a phone line happens to go over an electric fence and that fence gets turned on, it creates an electric field and everybody drops a connection except me. I've had one of these for over two years now, and the only time I get cut off is when the I.S.P. cuts me off. http://www.maestro.com.au/woomera.htm Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How do you know if it works in Linux?
At Mon, 29 Sep 2003 19:13:45 +0800, David Palmer. wrote: > > > Quote/This will only work for expensive or really dumb products like > PS/2 keyboards. A case in point: I'm trying to google for > Linux-compatible USB modems (dialup). The only recommendations I > could find are for the ultra-expensive USR modems. With one or > two exceptions, I couldn't find any Linux-specific mention for > the more affordable Asian (specifically Taiwanese) branded > modems. The one exception I can remember is for a DLink modem > that had a different model number. I don't have the slightest > clue if the recommended model is simply a renumbered version of > the models available at our local computer shops./Unquote. > > The best way to sort modems or anything else out for that > matter is find out what chip it is operating on. As far as > modems go, anything with a Lucent chip or a Rockwell 56K chip > works well. There are plenty of other options. If you want to > go into the initial setup/config, the distribution will even > tell you which ones it is compatible with. Yes. But how do you know what chipset it has? Note that this detail is often lost in the dark recesses of the printed manual or worse available only in the CDROM installer (say, as a PDF file). Oftentimes, try before you buy isn't an option. Note also that the chipset also sometimes undergo "revisions" which are incompatible enough as to make the device little better than useless (That is, the device could be autodetected, but not actually used). > I have an external modem, a very good one that you would > probably never have heard of, a Maestro Woomera. No-one would > know if it was Linux compatible or not. But it works off a 56K > Rockwell chip, and since that is the only aspect of the entire > modem that the O.S. interacts with it doesn't matter if the > modem is the size of a Sherman tank and wearing a low slung > pink dress. No Linux O.S. would even know or care. The only > thing it gets cute and cuddly with is the chipset. Is this a USB modem? I know that practically all serial port modems should work. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How Do You Know If It Works In Linux? - modems
On Mon, 29 Sep 2003, csj wrote: > PS/2 keyboards. A case in point: I'm trying to google for > Linux-compatible USB modems (dialup). The only recommendations I experience says a modem is linux compatible if it has a uart chip on it if it doesn't have uart chip on the modem card or on the mb, throw it away ... you'd save yourself hours, weeks of headaches unless you know how to debug rs232 w/ modem(hayes) command sets and like to play with it if its soft modem ( like win-modem software emulated modems ) than you're in deep kaa-kaa but, with all the hoo-lah a few years ago, some win-modems does work with linux now daze :-) > I have seen it on only one. So I think the answer to the subject > begs the question: You'll know it works under Linux if it works. yupp... and what works for one might not work for another... esp since not everyone needs all those whiz bang features on the motherboard or pci cards - not everyone needs to use onboard (firmware) raid - solution .. dont use any onboard raid .. doesnt work - not everyone needs usb devices on the mb - not everyone needs sata devices on the mb - not everyone needs lm-sensor compatible chips on the mb - not everyone needs sound compatible chips on the mb - not everyone needs over-clockable cpu controls on the mb - not everyone needs onboard scsi controllers - not everyone needs to squeeze the last ethernet efficiency on the mb - not everyone needs the last MB/sec disk transfer from the mb - not everyone needs to run 8x AGP memory-to-memory controllers - not everyone needs all pci master/slave slots to behave 100% per specs ... blah .. blah ... - everyone does want it to plug-n-play and it all works the first time w/ no tweeking of jumpers on the mb or config files in the distro - but that's probably not gonna happen - closest to that is to have a pc-shop build it for you ( they usually dont charge anything to do a generic install linux) in 1U boxes at the colo's.. people seem to tweek it to the max .. :-) c ya alvin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How do you know if it works in Linux?
Quote/This will only work for expensive or really dumb products like PS/2 keyboards. A case in point: I'm trying to google for Linux-compatible USB modems (dialup). The only recommendations I could find are for the ultra-expensive USR modems. With one or two exceptions, I couldn't find any Linux-specific mention for the more affordable Asian (specifically Taiwanese) branded modems. The one exception I can remember is for a DLink modem that had a different model number. I don't have the slightest clue if the recommended model is simply a renumbered version of the models available at our local computer shops./Unquote. The best way to sort modems or anything else out for that matter is find out what chip it is operating on. As far as modems go, anything with a Lucent chip or a Rockwell 56K chip works well. There are plenty of other options. If you want to go into the initial setup/config, the distribution will even tell you which ones it is compatible with. I have an external modem, a very good one that you would probably never have heard of, a Maestro Woomera. No-one would know if it was Linux compatible or not. But it works off a 56K Rockwell chip, and since that is the only aspect of the entire modem that the O.S. interacts with it doesn't matter if the modem is the size of a Sherman tank and wearing a low slung pink dress. No Linux O.S. would even know or care. The only thing it gets cute and cuddly with is the chipset. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How Do You Know If It Works In Linux?
At Sun, 28 Sep 2003 14:43:35 -0800, Greg Madden wrote: > > On Sunday 28 September 2003 11:35 am, alex wrote: [...] > > What are the indicators that will tell us whether the > > components are fully Linux compatible, whether they are part > > of a ready to run Windows computer, a systemless computer, a > > bare bones box, or one that you build from scratch? > > > > Is there something that prevents manufacturers from clearly > > stating that a product is fully suitable for Linux? It's > > done for MS Windows. Is this some kind of legal or technical > > issue, or is it some kind of 'business arrangement'? [...] > As with most questions, ask google. There are numerous sites > and hardware compatability lists that have been created. It is > a good idea to check the hw compatability lists first, but also > check out the vendors web site to see how well supported an > item is and how easy it is to use the support. This will only work for expensive or really dumb products like PS/2 keyboards. A case in point: I'm trying to google for Linux-compatible USB modems (dialup). The only recommendations I could find are for the ultra-expensive USR modems. With one or two exceptions, I couldn't find any Linux-specific mention for the more affordable Asian (specifically Taiwanese) branded modems. The one exception I can remember is for a DLink modem that had a different model number. I don't have the slightest clue if the recommended model is simply a renumbered version of the models available at our local computer shops. > For the most part the hardware vendor is not the one providing > the driver, Linux developers are. I would venture a vendor > won't guarantee a product they don't produce. > > I have seen the penquin on a few pieces of hardware I have > bought. I have seen it on only one. So I think the answer to the subject begs the question: You'll know it works under Linux if it works. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How Do You Know If It Works In Linux?
Hi, On Sun, 28 Sep 2003, Roberto Sanchez wrote: > Not to shoot the messenger, but this is what I found: > > http://h10018.www1.hp.com/wwsolutions/linux/products/clients/clientscert.html > > > Red Hat SuSE > laptops 7.3 7.2 7.1 8.0 7.3 7.2 > Armada E500 X X > Armada M700 X X And that's correct. It's absolutely out of date. We just finished certification for newer models and this page will be updated soon (yes these models are actual, sold models :) ) > No offense, but while I find that companies like HP, Dell, IBM, and > other major vendors are more than happy to sell servers and workstations > with Linux, the laptop support absolutely sucks. You have to understand that these decisions are market driven. We're on that way to be there, but I agree not fully there. But we're working on that. > Since it appears you work at HP, you may want to bring up to management > that there are people _looking_ to spend money on laptops that won't > until MS isn't rammed down their throats. (I think the hardware thing, > like winmodems and such, is at the next level). We are well aware of that, and as I said working the issue. We've done this with desktops already (you can order an EVO D220 or 530 with Linux pre-installed). > I'm sorry if I've ranted or flamed, that was not my intent. Well I posted this and told you that I work for HP. If I would not be willing to take other peoples opinions on this and try to explain why things are as they are (at least at HP) I would not be on this list or pretty quiet about the fact that I work for a certain company. I didn't take this as a flame or offense. Honest opinions are always welcome :). bye mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How Do You Know If It Works In Linux?
Michael Schulz wrote: we (HP) do this with Workstations, Business PCs and Laptops. You just should consult the vendors website (in our case www.hp.com/linux) to see if the system is supported (means working with Linux). Of course this isn't valid for every vendor :(. I would also like that to be seen at all these third-party vendors for cd-burners, tv-cards and the like. But it's a long road to get there. Not to shoot the messenger, but this is what I found: http://h10018.www1.hp.com/wwsolutions/linux/products/clients/clientscert.html Red Hat SuSE laptops 7.3 7.2 7.1 8.0 7.3 7.2 Armada E500 X X Armada M700 X X I originally saw this several months ago when I was looking into buying a new machine. I called and talked to people in Home sales and Business sales, and I was told that the E500 and M700 were discontinued a couple of *years* ago (as evidenced by the OS certs). They also said that none of the current laptops were even certified to run Linux. Nevermind the almost laughs that I got when I asked about getting a machine without an OS. No offense, but while I find that companies like HP, Dell, IBM, and other major vendors are more than happy to sell servers and workstations with Linux, the laptop support absolutely sucks. I was more than ready to plunk down $2000-$3000 for laptop, if only I could get it without an OS or with Linux (any distro, since I can format and reinstall Debian once I know all the configurations). I ended u pcustom building a desktop instead. Since it appears you work at HP, you may want to bring up to management that there are people _looking_ to spend money on laptops that won't until MS isn't rammed down their throats. (I think the hardware thing, like winmodems and such, is at the next level). This leaves you right now (if you really wanna be sure about that) to pre-installed systems or certified ones. I'm sorry if I've ranted or flamed, that was not my intent. bye mike -Roberto pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: How Do You Know If It Works In Linux?
On Sun, 28 Sep 2003, alex wrote: > Not exactly a Debian only topic but where else is the degree of > experience and expertise available besides this Debian list? > > Suppose someone wants to put together or buy a computer ---something > that is fully compatible with Linux.no makedo patches such as > for winmodems or other components, etc---how can you make sure > you're getting what you want? > > What are the indicators that will tell us whether the components are > fully Linux compatible, whether they are part of a ready to run > Windows computer, a systemless computer, a bare bones box, or one > that you build from scratch? > > Is there something that prevents manufacturers from clearly stating > that a product is fully suitable for Linux? It's done for MS > Windows. Is this some kind of legal or technical issue, or is it > some kind of 'business arrangement'? > > Wouldn't it be nice if there was a notice or disclaimer that clearly > stated, "100% suitable for Linux" or "Not suitable for Linux" > > With the universal recognition and use of Linux as an operating > system, it seems strange that you don't see components or a whole > computer clearly identified as fully suitable for Linux even though > it may have MS Windows installed. > > alex > If you are building it yourself, you should get a list of the parts and get the chipset it uses and google till you find what modules supports it. Other than that check for the few vendors that specfically sell linux certified hardware and email/call to ask about their claims. I got a catalog in the mail from microwarehouse (in the us) that said that they have some models they claimed were linux ready. -Kev -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How Do You Know If It Works In Linux?
alex wrote: Not exactly a Debian only topic but where else is the degree of experience and expertise available besides this Debian list? Suppose someone wants to put together or buy a computer ---something that is fully compatible with Linux.no makedo patches such as for winmodems or other components, etc---how can you make sure you're getting what you want? Check the various howtos and compatibility listings to see what works. What are the indicators that will tell us whether the components are fully Linux compatible, whether they are part of a ready to run Windows computer, a systemless computer, a bare bones box, or one that you build from scratch? Don't know about such identifiers. Is there something that prevents manufacturers from clearly stating that a product is fully suitable for Linux? It's done for MS Windows. Is this some kind of legal or technical issue, or is it some kind of 'business arrangement'? Fear of losing their sweet pricing deals from M$. Wouldn't it be nice if there was a notice or disclaimer that clearly stated, "100% suitable for Linux" or "Not suitable for Linux" That sure would be nice. With the universal recognition and use of Linux as an operating system, it seems strange that you don't see components or a whole computer clearly identified as fully suitable for Linux even though it may have MS Windows installed. Maybe universal to people who work in tech/IT, but still only a fringe-type idea to Joe Sixpack. alex A couple of things from personal experience: - nForce onboard ethernet requires a binary-only driver from nVidia. It works OK, but it is a pain to compile _another_ module after installing a new kernel. Via motherboards use a Realtek chip which is widely supported in the kernel. - nForce AGPGART is only natively supported in kernel 2.4.22 (and the later development kernels), there is an available 2.4.20 patch from nVidia. - nForce2 audio is well supported by the i8x0 OSS and ALSA drivers. - 8x AGP support is still very flaky (except perhaps in the most bleeding edge kernels) - ATi video cards are well supported by DRI (all the way up to the Radeon 9000 or 9200, I think, all the AGP 4x cards). Personally, I get good performance from the proprietary ATi drivers (about 1950 fps in glxgears), which I need to be able to play America's Army. I also have Daniel Stone's XFree86 4.3 packages. Which, along with a 2.4.22 kernel and modules from dri.sourceforge.net, gives way better performance (2450 fps in glxgears) than the binary ATi drivers. But the open source drivers break America's Army. Just my thoughts. -Roberto Sanchez pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: How Do You Know If It Works In Linux?
hi alex > alex wrote: > > > Suppose someone wants to put together or buy a computer ---something > > that is fully compatible with Linux.no makedo patches such as for > > winmodems or other components, etc---how can you make sure you're > > getting what you want? experience and taking the time to learn what works and worked for others and what didnt and more importantly, why it didnt work > > What are the indicators that will tell us whether the components are > > fully Linux compatible, whether they are part of a ready to run > > Windows computer, a systemless computer, a bare bones box, or one that > > you build from scratch? there is NO such thing as "fully linux compatible" - and will usually need some form of tweeking for some fixed set of foo-manufacturer's hardware lifespan of motherboards is typically 3-6 months before that "good mb" is retired/discontinued - cpu life span is about 6months before you cant get it anymore ( in volume ...10 or 100 pcs or more ) - disk lifespan is about 6mon-1yr before it's discontinued > > Is there something that prevents manufacturers from clearly stating > > that a product is fully suitable for Linux? It's done for MS > > Windows. Is this some kind of legal or technical issue, or is it some > > kind of 'business arrangement'? read the fine print in "Microsoft Authorized Distributer/Reseller Agreement" to see why manufacturers and reselllers do what they do its all marketing, sales, advertising, tech support, rma, discounts, royalties, refunds, pre-sales, etc, etc nothing to do with "technical issues" > > Wouldn't it be nice if there was a notice or disclaimer that clearly > > stated, "100% suitable for Linux" or "Not suitable for Linux" closest you can get to that is: - Hardware Compatibility Howto - the various "Linux testing labs" that certify hardware compatability for tom-dick-harry linux distro but still mght not be compatible w/ mary-sally-jane linux distro c ya alvin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How Do You Know If It Works In Linux?
alex wrote: Not exactly a Debian only topic but where else is the degree of experience and expertise available besides this Debian list? Suppose someone wants to put together or buy a computer ---something that is fully compatible with Linux.no makedo patches such as for winmodems or other components, etc---how can you make sure you're getting what you want? What are the indicators that will tell us whether the components are fully Linux compatible, whether they are part of a ready to run Windows computer, a systemless computer, a bare bones box, or one that you build from scratch? Is there something that prevents manufacturers from clearly stating that a product is fully suitable for Linux? It's done for MS Windows. Is this some kind of legal or technical issue, or is it some kind of 'business arrangement'? Wouldn't it be nice if there was a notice or disclaimer that clearly stated, "100% suitable for Linux" or "Not suitable for Linux" With the universal recognition and use of Linux as an operating system, it seems strange that you don't see components or a whole computer clearly identified as fully suitable for Linux even though it may have MS Windows installed. alex Last time I bought a computer, I had the sales guy fire it up with my Knoppix CD in it. I wasn't able to test the modem, but I was able to run pppconfig and see that the modem was not autodetected. Everything else, sound, ethernet, etc (don't believe I tested APM) worked fine. Of course, this won't work for individual pieces if you're building your own, and may not work depending on what test-setup is available at the store, or if you're buying online. As a side benefit, I was able to "sell" the sales guy on Knoppix. (I may have even left him a copy; I can't remember). -- Kent -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How Do You Know If It Works In Linux?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday 28 September 2003 11:35 am, alex wrote: > Not exactly a Debian only topic but where else is the degree of > experience and expertise available besides this Debian list? > > Suppose someone wants to put together or buy a computer ---something > that is fully compatible with Linux.no makedo patches such as > for winmodems or other components, etc---how can you make sure > you're getting what you want? > > What are the indicators that will tell us whether the components are > fully Linux compatible, whether they are part of a ready to run > Windows computer, a systemless computer, a bare bones box, or one > that you build from scratch? > > Is there something that prevents manufacturers from clearly stating > that a product is fully suitable for Linux? It's done for MS > Windows. Is this some kind of legal or technical issue, or is it > some kind of 'business arrangement'? > > Wouldn't it be nice if there was a notice or disclaimer that clearly > stated, "100% suitable for Linux" or "Not suitable for Linux" > > With the universal recognition and use of Linux as an operating > system, it seems strange that you don't see components or a whole > computer clearly identified as fully suitable for Linux even though > it may have MS Windows installed. > > alex As with most questions, ask google. There are numerous sites and hardware compatability lists that have been created. It is a good idea to check the hw compatability lists first, but also check out the vendors web site to see how well supported an item is and how easy it is to use the support. For the most part the hardware vendor is not the one providing the driver, Linux developers are. I would venture a vendor won't guarantee a product they don't produce. I have seen the penquin on a few pieces of hardware I have bought. - -- Greg Madden Debian GNU/Linux -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/d2QYk7rtxKWZzGsRAlemAKDUiMYIg8TavUHFYTa3gedmkWHhzQCgonMi q/yoh/x6whhe52+V7ZaKudU= =PiqJ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How Do You Know If It Works In Linux?
Hi On Sun, 2003-09-28 at 21:35, alex wrote: > Is there something that prevents manufacturers from clearly stating > that a product is fully suitable for Linux? It's done for MS > Windows. Is this some kind of legal or technical issue, or is it > some kind of 'business arrangement'? > we (HP) do this with Workstations, Business PCs and Laptops. You just should consult the vendors website (in our case www.hp.com/linux) to see if the system is supported (means working with Linux). Of course this isn't valid for every vendor :(. I would also like that to be seen at all these third-party vendors for cd-burners, tv-cards and the like. But it's a long road to get there. > With the universal recognition and use of Linux as an operating > system, it seems strange that you don't see components or a whole > computer clearly identified as fully suitable for Linux even though > it may have MS Windows installed. This leaves you right now (if you really wanna be sure about that) to pre-installed systems or certified ones. bye mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
How Do You Know If It Works In Linux?
Not exactly a Debian only topic but where else is the degree of experience and expertise available besides this Debian list? Suppose someone wants to put together or buy a computer ---something that is fully compatible with Linux.no makedo patches such as for winmodems or other components, etc---how can you make sure you're getting what you want? What are the indicators that will tell us whether the components are fully Linux compatible, whether they are part of a ready to run Windows computer, a systemless computer, a bare bones box, or one that you build from scratch? Is there something that prevents manufacturers from clearly stating that a product is fully suitable for Linux? It's done for MS Windows. Is this some kind of legal or technical issue, or is it some kind of 'business arrangement'? Wouldn't it be nice if there was a notice or disclaimer that clearly stated, "100% suitable for Linux" or "Not suitable for Linux" With the universal recognition and use of Linux as an operating system, it seems strange that you don't see components or a whole computer clearly identified as fully suitable for Linux even though it may have MS Windows installed. alex -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
