Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?
Hi, Curt wrote: > I thought nobody said "should better not be used," but sticking that quoted > phrase in a search engine produces over 12,000 hits. 12 thousand is not much. Popular germanisms get more. We are busy spoilers of english language. After considering all proposals made so far, and the statements in Steve McIntyre's mail, i inow wrote in the wiki wodim should not be used with DVD or BD media. [[https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/09/msg01078.html| This statement is supported by wodim's maintainer.]] Edit comment is: Hopefully final statement on wodim with DVD or BD media. Backed by maintainer of wodim. Steve agreed to my statement with the word "better" in it. That word was not essential to the advise. So i dropped it. Have a nice day :) Thomas
Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?
On 9/29/18, Dominic Knight wrote: > On Sat, 2018-09-29 at 08:59 +, Curt wrote: >> On 2018-09-28, Thomas Schmitt wrote: >> > This is not "unreliable" it is "clueless". >> > Insofar Curt's proposal is technically more correct. >> > But actually i see no improvement over my shorter statement. >> > (Maybe it's better english, but it's not better message.) >> >> I thought nobody said "should better not be used," but sticking that >> quoted >> phrase in a search engine produces over 12,000 hits. >> > So 12,000 people can be wrong :) > > Just altering the word order gives more clarity to the statement. > > "should be better not used" While still not entirely correct implies > less of a threat. > > "(it) better not be used (or)" - "the computer gods will frot you" > > "would be better not used" may be correct depending on the rest of the > context. > > Maybe an implicit threat of resulting danger needs to be implied? Wodim should not be used for burning to DVD or BD media. Which also implies no support for DVD/BD burning. And link "should not be used" to https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/09/msg01048.html to explain why it should not be used? Regards, Lee
Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?
On 2018-09-29, Dominic Knight wrote: > > Maybe an implicit threat of resulting danger needs to be implied? Implicit threats? Yeah, man. Like: "Got money and DVD/BD media to burn? Then burn 'em up with wodim*, the geeky masochist's premier choice for an unspecifiable subset of his burning needs." *Read instructions before use. Harmful if swallowed. > Cheers > Dom. -- "Now she understood that Anna could not have been in lilac, and that her charm was just that she always stood out against her attire, that her dress could never be noticeable on her." Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina
Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?
On Sat, 2018-09-29 at 08:59 +, Curt wrote: > On 2018-09-28, Thomas Schmitt wrote: > > This is not "unreliable" it is "clueless". > > Insofar Curt's proposal is technically more correct. > > But actually i see no improvement over my shorter statement. > > (Maybe it's better english, but it's not better message.) > > I thought nobody said "should better not be used," but sticking that > quoted > phrase in a search engine produces over 12,000 hits. > So 12,000 people can be wrong :) Just altering the word order gives more clarity to the statement. "should be better not used" While still not entirely correct implies less of a threat. "(it) better not be used (or)" - "the computer gods will frot you" "would be better not used" may be correct depending on the rest of the context. Maybe an implicit threat of resulting danger needs to be implied? Cheers Dom. > Doubts now linger in my mind as to whether I haven't used up a lot of > electrons > for nothing. > > There's so many of them, though, I guess frugality isn't an issue > (unless > Wheeler was right, and I've sent the one zipping all over the place). > > Out. > > > Have a nice day :) > > > > Thomas > > > > > >
Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?
On 9/29/18 10:59 AM, Curt wrote: > Doubts now linger in my mind as to whether I haven't used up a lot of > electrons > for nothing. > > There's so many of them, though, I guess frugality isn't an issue (unless > Wheeler was right, and I've sent the one zipping all over the place). That's quite some entropy created in our universe. If Carnot is right, we won't get away with it. Cheers. -- Étienne Mollier
Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?
On 2018-09-28, Thomas Schmitt wrote: > > This is not "unreliable" it is "clueless". > Insofar Curt's proposal is technically more correct. > But actually i see no improvement over my shorter statement. > (Maybe it's better english, but it's not better message.) I thought nobody said "should better not be used," but sticking that quoted phrase in a search engine produces over 12,000 hits. Doubts now linger in my mind as to whether I haven't used up a lot of electrons for nothing. There's so many of them, though, I guess frugality isn't an issue (unless Wheeler was right, and I've sent the one zipping all over the place). Out. > Have a nice day :) > > Thomas > > -- "Now she understood that Anna could not have been in lilac, and that her charm was just that she always stood out against her attire, that her dress could never be noticeable on her." Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina
Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?
On 2018-09-28, Thomas Schmitt wrote: > Insofar Curt's proposal is technically more correct. > But actually i see no improvement over my shorter statement. > (Maybe it's better english, but it's not better message.) As specified in the part of my article you snipped, the unique purpose of my proposals was to eliminate your unidiomatic phraseology, not to alter or embellish or ameliorate the nature of the message itself. I do think you should probably add your cell phone number to the wiki so that confused users can ring you up if they encounter difficulties. This is being done more and more by developers these days. There's nothing like that "personal touch," Tom, to get those recalcitrant users on board with your software. Good luck and have a good one. Curt > Have a nice day :) > > Thomas > > -- "Now she understood that Anna could not have been in lilac, and that her charm was just that she always stood out against her attire, that her dress could never be noticeable on her." Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina
Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?
Hi, Curt proposed: > Wodim has proved to fail under certain conditions and as a general rule > should probably be avoided when burning to DVD or BD media. I like this better than what Brian (i assume) committed now: https://wiki.debian.org/BurnCd?action=diff=36=37 "Wodim has proved much less reliable when used with DVD or BD media and is best avoided when burning to those media." In that statement i object the term "reliable". The failures are reproducible and due to inappropriate preparation commands before writing begins or inappropriate finalization commands after writing. Let me give you an example: With CD-R, the drive expects to get a SCSI command MODE SELECT with a "mode page 05" as payload. That mode page is a form with several fields. Among them is the field "Write Type". We normally use 2="SAO" or 1="TAO". Then there is the "Multi-session" field. 0=finalize, 3=keep writable. With DVD-R, which is very similar to CD-R, a mode page 05 is sent too. The Write Type can be 2="DAO" or 0="Incremental". Only with "Incremental" the Multi-session field can be used to keep the medium writable. With DVD+R, no mode page 05 must be sent. The decision whether the medium stays writable is postponed until writing is done. Each track is finished by a command CLOSE TRACK SESSION. An additional command CLOSE TRACK SESSION may close the whole medium. Now imagine wodim applying the rules for CD-R to the other two. With DVD-R, chances for success are quite good. A CD-R SAO run with Multi-session = 0 matches a DVD-R DAO run. But DVD-R Multi-session = 1 demands a different Write Type value than CD SAO or TAO. With DVD+R, the need for the finalizing commands will not be fulfilled. Also the drive will complain about the mode page 05 being sent. This is not "unreliable" it is "clueless". Insofar Curt's proposal is technically more correct. But actually i see no improvement over my shorter statement. (Maybe it's better english, but it's not better message.) Have a nice day :) Thomas
Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?
On 2018-09-28, Thomas Schmitt wrote: > Hi, > > i wrote: >> > So how should the statement be improved ? >> > ["wodim should better not be used with DVD or BD media."] > > Curt wrote: >> You could say: >> It is preferable not to use wodim for DVD or BD media. >> Or >> It's better to avoid using wodim when burning to DVD or BD media. >> Or >> Wodim has proved less reliable when used with DVD or BD media and is >> best avoided when burning to those media. > > Number 1 and 2 would bear content equivalent to mine. Right. My reason to rephrase was only that "should better not" isn't quite idiomatic English. It's not a big deal, though. > Number 3 is inaccurate, because wodim works with some media types in > some situations reliably. It fails at other occasions reliably. > Here I went out on a limb. Though it's true I'd gladly trade a superior turn of phrase for a little accuracy. Wodim has proved to fail under certain conditions and as a general rule should probably be avoided when burning to DVD or BD media. -- "Now she understood that Anna could not have been in lilac, and that her charm was just that she always stood out against her attire, that her dress could never be noticeable on her." Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina
discussing debian wiki on the wiki (was Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?)
On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 06:49:26PM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote: - Does the wiki have means to discuss facts or to leave messages to other editors why a particular change was undone ? Moin doesn't directly have the "talk" feature that some other wikis do, sorry. It can have Discussion pages via "supplementation pages" feature[1]. My recollection back when we moved to Moin (from kwiki I think?) was that it was decided by the responsible admins to instead encourage using debian-www for wiki-related discussion, and to not use Discussion pages. That was a long time ago and I think it's fair to say that debian-www is probably not the ideal place for wiki content discussions after all. It might be worth revisiting the decision, although this (-user) isn't the place to suggest that. (I might suggest it in the proper place if I have time next week). [1] https://moinmo.in/HelpOnConfiguration/SupplementationPage -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net ⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.
Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?
On Fri 28 Sep 2018 at 19:10:40 +0100, Brian wrote: > On Fri 28 Sep 2018 at 15:59:26 +, Curt wrote: > > > On 2018-09-28, Thomas Schmitt wrote: > > > > > > Curt wrote: > > >> > It's been reverted but as the formulation is a little awkward it's too > > >> > bad we didn't take this opportunity to unawkwardate it. > > > > > > Jonathan Dowland wrote: > > >> I opted to restore the text exactly as it was (a pure revert) rather > > >> than improve upon it, although I'm not really sure why I rationalised > > >> that. > > > > > > So how should the statement be improved ? > > > > "should better not be used" is a bit twisted. > > > > You could say: > > > > It is preferable not to use wodim for DVD or BD media. > > > > Or: > > > > It's better to avoid using wodim when burning to DVD or BD media. > > > > Or: > > > > Wodim has proved less reliable when used with DVD or BD media and is > > best avoided when burning to those media. > > The last statement is good and the one I'd be inclined to go with, maybe > qualifying "less" with "much". See what you think on the wiki. --
Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?
Hi, i wrote towards Jonathan Dowland: > > Thanks for sparing me the questionable deed to revert the change myself. > > So it is not a wiki war. Brian wrote: > Why is it questionable? Either you stand behind your statement or not. Wikis going forth and back several times don't make a good impression. I'd have waited for Steve McIntyre's statement or some community consense before reverting the change. Well, Jonathan established that consense after considering the presented arguments. Now i have to speak in favor of keeping my favorite zombies undead. Have a nice day :) Thomas
Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?
Hi, i wrote: > > So how should the statement be improved ? > > ["wodim should better not be used with DVD or BD media."] Curt wrote: > You could say: > It is preferable not to use wodim for DVD or BD media. > Or > It's better to avoid using wodim when burning to DVD or BD media. > Or > Wodim has proved less reliable when used with DVD or BD media and is > best avoided when burning to those media. Number 1 and 2 would bear content equivalent to mine. Number 3 is inaccurate, because wodim works with some media types in some situations reliably. It fails at other occasions reliably. Greg Wooledge wrote: > I'm fond of: > wodim should not be used. > Although that may be too strong. Maybe keep that "with DVD/BD media" bit > on the end. ;-) Then it would be wodim should not be used with DVD/BD media and thus quite similar to the current wording. I had chosen the current wording in order not to badmouth wodim, which still is needed for some exotic CD use cases (CD-XA, data-audio mixed mode, "raw" burning modes, ...). My libburn does pure data CD or pure audio CD. For all other use cases i lack examples and test users. Steve McIntyre wrote: > cdrkit is definitely now EOL, and I don't use it > myself for writing DVD or BD media. Thanks a lot for this clarification. Your message https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/09/msg01078.html will serve me as evidence to defend my position at future occasions. So as question to native speakers of english language: How to express in a concise sentence the fact that users of wodim will be on their own if anything goes wrong on DVD or BD ? Please read the whole section https://wiki.debian.org/BurnCd#Burn_the_image_file_to_CD.2C_DVD.2C_or_BD to get the context. The sentence in question is near the section's end. It seems not necessary for the purpose of the wiki page to give much reason or detail for the advise to restrict wodim usage to CDs. The residual use cases are not in the scope of the wiki article for quite the same reasons why they are not supported by libburn. Have a nice day :) Thomas
Future of cdrkit. Was: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?
Hi, Steve McIntyre wrote: > The only 2 reasons I've had for keeping the cdrkit package in Debian > were: > 1. hfs hybrid support in genisoimage, a topic that Thomas and I have >spoken about in the past. Now that we no longer have powerpc in >Debian stable and I don't have to care about making CD and DVD >releases for it John Paul Adrian Glaubitz, maintainer of rare arches, stated to me that a 64 bit PowerPC variant still wants HFS. We did not explore, though, whether it would accept HFS+ of xorriso or whether it could be served by a HFS image file inside the ISO, similar to the HFS+ image file in Fedora ISOs. > 2. icedax's support for extracting cd-text from audio CDs. As > (also!) maintainer of abcde, that's a very useful feature. I'm > not aware of anything else that supports it - suggestions > welcome! cdrskin can extract CD-TEXT as human readable Sony Input Sheet file. Search for the example input file "NIGHTCATS.TXT" in https://dev.lovelyhq.com/libburnia/libburn/raw/master/doc/cdtext.txt to see how this format looks like. I just tested that it works (without much messages) by: cdrskin -v dev=/dev/sr4 cdtext_to_v07t=$HOME/cdtext.v07t The resulting sheet file is then $HOME/cdtext.v07t. (The CD is self-made. I have no commercial CD with CD-TEXT.) In man icedax i read mainly about .cddb and .cdindex files. Do you have examples ? Can you make a sheet file by cdrskin for comparison with those files from icedax ? -- Don't throw wodim out of Debian. Its residual use cases are worth to be kept supported. (Although i can explain them only from hearsay and specs.) genisoimage is still needed, too. Not only -hfs for booting but also -udf for DVD video mastering or big data files for *BSD target systems. Have a nice day :) Thomas
Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?
On Fri 28 Sep 2018 at 15:59:26 +, Curt wrote: > On 2018-09-28, Thomas Schmitt wrote: > > > > Curt wrote: > >> > It's been reverted but as the formulation is a little awkward it's too > >> > bad we didn't take this opportunity to unawkwardate it. > > > > Jonathan Dowland wrote: > >> I opted to restore the text exactly as it was (a pure revert) rather > >> than improve upon it, although I'm not really sure why I rationalised > >> that. > > > > So how should the statement be improved ? > > "should better not be used" is a bit twisted. > > You could say: > > It is preferable not to use wodim for DVD or BD media. > > Or: > > It's better to avoid using wodim when burning to DVD or BD media. > > Or: > > Wodim has proved less reliable when used with DVD or BD media and is > best avoided when burning to those media. The last statement is good and the one I'd be inclined to go with, maybe qualifying "less" with "much". -- Brian.
Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?
On Fri 28 Sep 2018 at 17:47:34 +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote: > Hi, > > Jonathan Dowland wrote: > > For the avoidance of any doubt, jmtd is me (Jonathan Michael Thomas > > Dowland). > > Thanks for sparing me the questionable deed to revert the change myself. > So it is not a wiki war. Why is it questionable? Either you stand behind your statement or not. Of course, if you and StephenKeeling had been contactable via the wiki a recourse to -user needn't have taken place. Not that it hasn't been of interest. -- Brian.
Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?
Jon Dowland wrote: >On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 10:00:42PM +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote: >>wodim is factually abandoned by its cloners Joerg Jaspert, Steve McIntyre, >>and Eduard Bloch. Its home page is gone, its change history is gone. > >That would be reason enough to avoid wodim IMHO... but it would also >suggest that wodim should not be in the archive either. The binary >package name wodim is currently provided by the src package cdrkit. Is >that abandoned? (I'm asking this elsewhere, too) The only 2 reasons I've had for keeping the cdrkit package in Debian were: 1. hfs hybrid support in genisoimage, a topic that Thomas and I have spoken about in the past. Now that we no longer have powerpc in Debian stable and I don't have to care about making CD and DVD releases for it, 2. icedax's support for extracting cd-text from audio CDs. As (also!) maintainer of abcde, that's a very useful feature. I'm not aware of anything else that supports it - suggestions welcome! -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com "Further comment on how I feel about IBM will appear once I've worked out whether they're being malicious or incompetent. Capital letters are forecast." Matthew Garrett, http://www.livejournal.com/users/mjg59/30675.html
Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?
Hey Thomas! Thomas Schmitt wrote: > >is perhaps the Debian wiki user StephenKeeling subscribed here ? >We need to discuss the recent wiki change > https://wiki.debian.org/BurnCd?action=diff=30=31 > >Alternatively: >- Does the wiki have means to contact a particular Debian wiki user ? Not directly, I'm afraid. >- Does the wiki have means to discuss facts or to leave messages > to other editors why a particular change was undone ? Moin doesn't directly have the "talk" feature that some other wikis do, sorry. >If Steve McIntyre or Joerg Jaspert, the DDs involved with wodim, are >reading this: Could you please confirm this statement of mine ? > "wodim should better not be used with DVD or BD media." Well, that's me. :-) cdrkit is definitely now EOL, and I don't use it myself for writing DVD or BD media. You can quote me on that. Feel free to change the wiki page back to where it was. As an admin for wiki.debian.org, I'd have BCCed this mail to StephenKeeling (as I have access to the user account data too), but he's removed the email address from his account so I can't. :-( -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com "Further comment on how I feel about IBM will appear once I've worked out whether they're being malicious or incompetent. Capital letters are forecast." Matthew Garrett, http://www.livejournal.com/users/mjg59/30675.html
Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?
On Friday, September 28, 2018 01:32:38 AM Richard Hector wrote: > How about something like: > > "wodim may sometimes work with DVD or BD media, but the results will not > meet the relevant specifications." > > or perhaps s/work/appear to work/ I am also not an expert in this area, but I would ask is it "will not meet" or is it "may not meet" (the relevant specifications). > Note: I have no expertise in this area; I'm merely interpreting the > comments above.
Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?
On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 03:59:26PM +, Curt wrote: > "should better not be used" is a bit twisted. > > You could say: > > It is preferable not to use wodim for DVD or BD media. > > Or: > > It's better to avoid using wodim when burning to DVD or BD media. > > Or: > > Wodim has proved less reliable when used with DVD or BD media and is > best avoided when burning to those media. I'm fond of: wodim should not be used. Although that may be too strong. Maybe keep that "with DVD/BD media" bit on the end. ;-)
Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?
On Fri 28 Sep 2018 at 16:29:56 +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote: > On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 02:53:35PM +, Curt wrote: > > It's been reverted but as the formulation is a little awkward it's too > > bad we didn't take this opportunity to unawkwardate it. > > For the avoidance of any doubt, jmtd is me (Jonathan Michael Thomas > Dowland). I'm not involved in cdrkit development. > > I opted to restore the text exactly as it was (a pure revert) rather > than improve upon it, although I'm not really sure why I rationalised > that. Sufficient rationale is in https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/09/msg01033.html > My way to express the current technical situation was the statement: > > "wodim should better not be used with DVD or BD media." > > which now became > > "Some believe it would be better if wodim were not used with DVD or BD > media. Perhaps so, but there are many variables involved, most > especially burner types and condition, and media quality. > '''Burn on one does not necessarily mean readable on another.'''" > It is not the opinion of "some". It is the opionion of me, the expert (tm). A user doesn't have to be a cdrkit developer or user of the software to act on a statement such as this when editing a wiki. -- Brian.
Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?
On 2018-09-28, Thomas Schmitt wrote: > > Curt wrote: >> > It's been reverted but as the formulation is a little awkward it's too >> > bad we didn't take this opportunity to unawkwardate it. > > Jonathan Dowland wrote: >> I opted to restore the text exactly as it was (a pure revert) rather >> than improve upon it, although I'm not really sure why I rationalised >> that. > > So how should the statement be improved ? "should better not be used" is a bit twisted. You could say: It is preferable not to use wodim for DVD or BD media. Or: It's better to avoid using wodim when burning to DVD or BD media. Or: Wodim has proved less reliable when used with DVD or BD media and is best avoided when burning to those media. I'm learning in real time that it's easy to criticize but harder to come up with something yourself. ;-) > > Have a nice day :) > > Thomas > > -- "Now she understood that Anna could not have been in lilac, and that her charm was just that she always stood out against her attire, that her dress could never be noticeable on her." Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina
Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?
Hi, Jonathan Dowland wrote: > For the avoidance of any doubt, jmtd is me (Jonathan Michael Thomas > Dowland). Thanks for sparing me the questionable deed to revert the change myself. So it is not a wiki war. > I'm not involved in cdrkit development. Nobody is involved there. Else i would chew off that person's ear in the hope to get the shortcommings fixed. Curt wrote: > > It's been reverted but as the formulation is a little awkward it's too > > bad we didn't take this opportunity to unawkwardate it. Jonathan Dowland wrote: > I opted to restore the text exactly as it was (a pure revert) rather > than improve upon it, although I'm not really sure why I rationalised > that. So how should the statement be improved ? Have a nice day :) Thomas
Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?
On 2018-09-28, Jonathan Dowland wrote: > On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 02:53:35PM +, Curt wrote: >>It's been reverted but as the formulation is a little awkward it's too >>bad we didn't take this opportunity to unawkwardate it. > > For the avoidance of any doubt, jmtd is me (Jonathan Michael Thomas > Dowland). I'm not involved in cdrkit development. Oh. > I opted to restore the text exactly as it was (a pure revert) rather > than improve upon it, although I'm not really sure why I rationalised > that. > It's of little importance one way or another, really. As is is clear. What was important was to restore the text, for which I thank you. -- "Now she understood that Anna could not have been in lilac, and that her charm was just that she always stood out against her attire, that her dress could never be noticeable on her." Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina
Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?
On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 02:53:35PM +, Curt wrote: It's been reverted but as the formulation is a little awkward it's too bad we didn't take this opportunity to unawkwardate it. For the avoidance of any doubt, jmtd is me (Jonathan Michael Thomas Dowland). I'm not involved in cdrkit development. I opted to restore the text exactly as it was (a pure revert) rather than improve upon it, although I'm not really sure why I rationalised that. -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net ⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.
Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?
On 2018-09-28, Curt wrote: > On 2018-09-28, Brian wrote: >> On Fri 28 Sep 2018 at 10:57:12 +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote: >> >>> Hm. Another user "jmtd" is editing in BurnCd. >>> Now i am curious whether the wodim-DVD-BD statement will be changed too. >> >> Have you satisfied your curiosity? > > He says: > > revert StephenKeeling's edit rewording warning about wodim - see recent > discussion on debian-user for background, please join the discussion if > you disagree > It's been reverted but as the formulation is a little awkward it's too bad we didn't take this opportunity to unawkwardate it. But give 'em the moon and they want the stars I guess! -- "Now she understood that Anna could not have been in lilac, and that her charm was just that she always stood out against her attire, that her dress could never be noticeable on her." Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina
Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?
On 2018-09-28, Brian wrote: > On Fri 28 Sep 2018 at 10:57:12 +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote: > >> Hm. Another user "jmtd" is editing in BurnCd. >> Now i am curious whether the wodim-DVD-BD statement will be changed too. > > Have you satisfied your curiosity? He says: revert StephenKeeling's edit rewording warning about wodim - see recent discussion on debian-user for background, please join the discussion if you disagree -- "Now she understood that Anna could not have been in lilac, and that her charm was just that she always stood out against her attire, that her dress could never be noticeable on her." Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina
Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?
On Fri 28 Sep 2018 at 10:57:12 +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote: > Hm. Another user "jmtd" is editing in BurnCd. > Now i am curious whether the wodim-DVD-BD statement will be changed too. Have you satisfied your curiosity? -- Brian.
Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?
On Fri, Sep 28, 2018 at 12:46:27PM +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote: I still hope for a statement by the (nominal) wodim maintainers. I spoke to one this morning, and they're aware of this thread but very busy, I think they intend to do something at some point, so watch this space :-) -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net ⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.
Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?
On 2018-09-28, Brian wrote: > On Fri 28 Sep 2018 at 11:02:37 +, Curt wrote: > >> On 2018-09-27, Brian wrote: >> > >> > "wodim should better not be used with DVD or BD media." >> >> The French Wiki has something like: >> >> It is preferable not to use wodim with DVD or BD media. >> >> Notice the elimination all weasly padding of the "Some believe it would >> be better" variety (as began Keeling's uncommented edit). > > Elimination never happened. The only thing noticable is the French > version hasn't been syched with the English version. Guess I should have said absence rather than elimination. > Uncommented edits are not unusual; people forget to do it. > What's good for the goose is good for the gander. My uninformed opinion is that the edit is unwarranted and confusing. In fact I'd say the edit weaseled the caveat more or less out of existence. Apparently the "some"* that "believe it would be better" don't know about the complexity of the variables involved, nor that what is burnt on device A isn't necessarily readable on device B (but remains readable on device A?), the implication being they're attributing to the software what can be ascribed to other, unrelated factors. * Thomas Schmitt, developer of xorisso (who probably knows his * shit), of which Keeling was well aware, of course, when he made the * edit. -- "Now she understood that Anna could not have been in lilac, and that her charm was just that she always stood out against her attire, that her dress could never be noticeable on her." Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina
Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?
Hi, Curt wrote: > The French Wiki has something like: > It is preferable not to use wodim with DVD or BD media. It advise to stay with this for now. > > I still hope for a statement by the (nominal) wodim maintainers. Brian wrote: > Keep hoping. Well, Steve McIntyre does show up here from time to time. > Meanwhile, stand by your statement and the authority behind it The fork of wodim from cdrecord happened because of the authoritarian behavior of cdrecord's upstream developer. I try to be more community oriented, especially if my own software is involved. > If discussion with StephenKeeling was likely to lead to a change of mind > on your part there might be some point in waiting for this to happen. At least i want to learn why he feels the need for pushing wodim onto the playing field of DVD and BD burning. Have a nice day :) Thomas
Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?
On Fri 28 Sep 2018 at 11:02:37 +, Curt wrote: > On 2018-09-27, Brian wrote: > > > > "wodim should better not be used with DVD or BD media." > > The French Wiki has something like: > > It is preferable not to use wodim with DVD or BD media. > > Notice the elimination all weasly padding of the "Some believe it would > be better" variety (as began Keeling's uncommented edit). Elimination never happened. The only thing noticable is the French version hasn't been syched with the English version. Uncommented edits are not unusual; people forget to do it. -- Brian.
Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?
On Fri 28 Sep 2018 at 12:46:27 +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote: > Hi, > > Brian wrote: > > Then revert the edit and link to this thread: > > wodim should [[https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/09/msg01031.html > > better|not be used]] with DVD or BD media. > > I still hope for a statement by the (nominal) wodim maintainers. Keep hoping. Meanwhile, stand by your statement and the authority behind it. > ... or maybe StephenKeeling shows up ... If discussion with StephenKeeling was likely to lead to a change of mind on your part there might be some point in waiting for this to happen. -- Brian.
Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?
On 2018-09-27, Brian wrote: > > "wodim should better not be used with DVD or BD media." The French Wiki has something like: It is preferable not to use wodim with DVD or BD media. Notice the elimination all weasly padding of the "Some believe it would be better" variety (as began Keeling's uncommented edit). Wodim either is or isn't as reliable as the other two apps for burning DVD or BD media. My impression is Keeling believes the former. > Perhaps a rewording: > > There is (strong? extensive?) evidence that wodim should not be used > with DVD or BD media. However, the many variables involved, especially > burner types and media type and quality, could result a successful > burn. > Sure. Now let's head over to the Traffic Safety Wiki to opine that although some might posit driving down the freeway at 150 mph is ill-advised, depending on vehicle type, road conditions, pilot skill, weather, time of day, general visibility, state of traffic, and any number of other factors, traveling at such speeds on such roadways can result in a successful transfer from point A to B. YMMV. -- "Now she understood that Anna could not have been in lilac, and that her charm was just that she always stood out against her attire, that her dress could never be noticeable on her." Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina
Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?
Hi, Brian wrote: > Then revert the edit and link to this thread: > wodim should [[https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/09/msg01031.html > better|not be used]] with DVD or BD media. I still hope for a statement by the (nominal) wodim maintainers. ... or maybe StephenKeeling shows up ... Have a nice day :) Thomas
Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?
On Fri 28 Sep 2018 at 10:57:12 +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote: > -- > > The Debian BurnCd wiki page shall give tangible instructions for users, > not discuss under what circumstances inappropriate SCSI preparations > succeed nevertheless. > > Given the history, the bug reports, and the maintainership situation, > i still stand by the straight statement: > > wodim should better not be used with DVD or BD media. > > The word "better" indicates that success with wodim is not impossible. > (I just tested. DVD+RW it does quite well. But so does "dd" too.) > > If you use wodim with CD media and experience failure, then it is in > most cases due to bad drve or medium. > But a wodim failure with DVD or BD can mean anything. > > -- Then revert the edit and link to this thread: wodim should [[https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/09/msg01031.html better|not be used]] with DVD or BD media. -- Brian.
Re: DVD+R DL and BD media. Was: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?
Hi, deloptes wrote: > I was trying to burn DVD+DL and had the feeling it does not do what I want > it to do. I trashed couple of DL DVDs - each costs ~3€. Yes. I too experienced that DVD+R DL are the most early type to fail on an ageing drive. I still have half a spindle of them, but only for the purpose of testing media recognition. (3 EUR as price is quite a while ago. Now you get them for less than 1 EUR.) To our luck, BD burners became achievable (~ 80 EUR + possibly USB box) and single layer BD-R media became cheaper than DVD+R DL. My last buy of 10 pieces on spindle was Verbatim BD-RE 25 GB 10.33 Primeon BD-RE 25 GB7.60 Verbatim BD-R 25 GB5.92 Primeon BD-R 25 GB 5.20 My oldest BD burner is picky with BD-RE and likes both brands. My youngest BD burner likes both brands of BD-R and BD-RE. I cannot get first generation "2x" BD-R for the old one any more. Have a nice day :) Thomas
Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?
Thomas Schmitt wrote: > Nevertheless, i plan to defend my version duely, unless a wodim maintainer > shows up and promises to take care of the bugs and code shortcommings. > I would be willing to help. Thanks, I suspected something wrong with DVD writing for a long time already. Your post tells me I was not wrong. I was trying to burn DVD+DL and had the feeling it does not do what I want it to do. I trashed couple of DL DVDs - each costs ~3€. regards
Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?
Hi, Brian proposed: > There is (strong? extensive?) evidence that wodim should not be used > with DVD or BD media. However, the many variables involved, especially > burner types and media type and quality, could result a successful > burn. There are not that many variables: Drive type: burner/reader of CD, DVD, BD media. Medium type: DVD-R, DVD-R DL, DVD+R, DVD+R DL DVD+RW, DVD-RW, DVD-RAM, BD-R, BD-RE (other than with DVD, the multi-layer BD media do not differ in behavior from the single-layer BD media) Medium write state: blank, appendable, closed. Medium formatting state: DVD-RW and BD-R have more than one personality. A burn program should know them and be able to handle their possible combinations. That's what wodim fails to do with DVD and BD. Erratic variables are the health of computer, drive, and medium. (Error key B often indicates power supply or bus problems. OPC errors or write errors often indicate problems of the drive and/or of the medium.) Richard Hector proposed: > "wodim may sometimes work with DVD or BD media, but the results will not > meet the relevant specifications." It is not so much about the results. If the drive is healthy and does not barf on wodim's commands, then a healthy medium gets written readable data. It is about wodim's cluelessness about DVD and the lack of maintainership. Be it about error replies from the drive https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=609763 https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=651847 (Did not recognize Descriptor format sense code. The reported error is B,0,0 (= abort message, actually from kernel) not 0,0,3 (=nonsense).) Be it about single-session DVD+R https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=386640 Be it about multi-session on DVD+R https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=641147 Be it about double-layer features https://bugs.launchpad.net/linuxmint/+bug/1094796 Be it about media types more modern than wodim's last change https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=782429 Not to forget the wonderful bit rot (not DVD specific) https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=679839 (One would just have to let it scan /dev/sr* rather than /dev/scd*.) Who advises wodim for DVD or BD should also care for these bug reports. -- The Debian BurnCd wiki page shall give tangible instructions for users, not discuss under what circumstances inappropriate SCSI preparations succeed nevertheless. Given the history, the bug reports, and the maintainership situation, i still stand by the straight statement: wodim should better not be used with DVD or BD media. The word "better" indicates that success with wodim is not impossible. (I just tested. DVD+RW it does quite well. But so does "dd" too.) If you use wodim with CD media and experience failure, then it is in most cases due to bad drve or medium. But a wodim failure with DVD or BD can mean anything. -- Hm. Another user "jmtd" is editing in BurnCd. Now i am curious whether the wodim-DVD-BD statement will be changed too. Nevertheless, i plan to defend my version duely, unless a wodim maintainer shows up and promises to take care of the bugs and code shortcommings. I would be willing to help. Have a nice day :) Thomas
Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?
On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 10:00:42PM +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote: wodim is factually abandoned by its cloners Joerg Jaspert, Steve McIntyre, and Eduard Bloch. Its home page is gone, its change history is gone. That would be reason enough to avoid wodim IMHO... but it would also suggest that wodim should not be in the archive either. The binary package name wodim is currently provided by the src package cdrkit. Is that abandoned? (I'm asking this elsewhere, too) -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net ⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.
Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?
On 28/09/18 8:00 AM, Thomas Schmitt wrote: > Hi, > > Greg Wooledge wrote: >> In the case of the BurnCd page, I actually *do* think that it would be >> of general interest to readers to have a paragraph explaining the limits >> of wodim, and when not to use it. > > Let me try ... hrr-umm ... > > wodim was cloned from cdrecord in 2006. At that time, cdrecord had few > clue about DVD burning and hid this behind a 1 GB size limit of the > free program version. The full size version was not available at all. > wodim got implanted DVD-related code from an earlier cdrecord clone > which hacked around the size limitation. > > But still wodim is handling any DVD as if it was a large CD-R. > This works halfways with DVD-R and, depending the medium state, with > other media after due rejection of inappropriate SCSI commands by the > drive. > But it is awful, specs-wise ! > > wodim is factually abandoned by its cloners Joerg Jaspert, Steve McIntyre, > and Eduard Bloch. Its home page is gone, its change history is gone. > > In contrast to that, the doings of dvd+rw-tools (growisofs) and of libburn > can be justified by the MMC-5 specs. In case of libburn there is even an > active upstream developer (myself). > > - > > But who wants to read about 12 year old quarrels between Debian Developers > and the upstream developer of cdrecord ? > > My way to express the current technical situation was the statement: > > "wodim should better not be used with DVD or BD media." > > which now became > > "Some believe it would be better if wodim were not used with DVD or BD >media. Perhaps so, but there are many variables involved, most >especially burner types and condition, and media quality. >'''Burn on one does not necessarily mean readable on another.'''" > > It is not the opinion of "some". It is the opionion of me, the expert (tm). > > And yes, there are ill burners and media which produce poorly readble > results. But this is _not_ normal. If hardware behaves that way, then > it is to blame, and not the burn program. > (Even wodims's failures are repeatable.) How about something like: "wodim may sometimes work with DVD or BD media, but the results will not meet the relevant specifications." or perhaps s/work/appear to work/ Note: I have no expertise in this area; I'm merely interpreting the comments above. Richard signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?
On Thu 27 Sep 2018 at 12:07:02 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote: > On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 05:59:42PM +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote: > > Alternatively: > > - Does the wiki have means to discuss facts or to leave messages > > to other editors why a particular change was undone ? > > The "Comment" box on the edit page is the obvious place to state your > reason for reverting someone else's change. If you need more space than The "Comment" box is probably the only option. Neither StephenKeeling nor ThomasSchmitt are contactable by email from the "Info" section. But a complete reversion of the addition isn't necessarily the way to go. (See below). > the wiki revision comment box provides (I don't know how many characters > that is in moinmoin off hand, but I think it's a few hundred), then it > becomes more of an issue. Moinmoin doesn't maintain a parallel "Talk" > page namespace. You can put your explanation directly onto the page > itself, if you think it will be of general interest. I've seen this done; I do not think wiki pages on technical topics are the place for advocacy. > In the case of the BurnCd page, I actually *do* think that it would be > of general interest to readers to have a paragraph explaining the limits > of wodim, and when not to use it. As well as the other tools, if they > have important restrictions and limits. Agreed. "wodim should better not be used with DVD or BD media." Perhaps a rewording: There is (strong? extensive?) evidence that wodim should not be used with DVD or BD media. However, the many variables involved, especially burner types and media type and quality, could result a successful burn. -- Brian.
Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?
Hi, Greg Wooledge wrote: > In the case of the BurnCd page, I actually *do* think that it would be > of general interest to readers to have a paragraph explaining the limits > of wodim, and when not to use it. Let me try ... hrr-umm ... wodim was cloned from cdrecord in 2006. At that time, cdrecord had few clue about DVD burning and hid this behind a 1 GB size limit of the free program version. The full size version was not available at all. wodim got implanted DVD-related code from an earlier cdrecord clone which hacked around the size limitation. But still wodim is handling any DVD as if it was a large CD-R. This works halfways with DVD-R and, depending the medium state, with other media after due rejection of inappropriate SCSI commands by the drive. But it is awful, specs-wise ! wodim is factually abandoned by its cloners Joerg Jaspert, Steve McIntyre, and Eduard Bloch. Its home page is gone, its change history is gone. In contrast to that, the doings of dvd+rw-tools (growisofs) and of libburn can be justified by the MMC-5 specs. In case of libburn there is even an active upstream developer (myself). - But who wants to read about 12 year old quarrels between Debian Developers and the upstream developer of cdrecord ? My way to express the current technical situation was the statement: "wodim should better not be used with DVD or BD media." which now became "Some believe it would be better if wodim were not used with DVD or BD media. Perhaps so, but there are many variables involved, most especially burner types and condition, and media quality. '''Burn on one does not necessarily mean readable on another.'''" It is not the opinion of "some". It is the opionion of me, the expert (tm). And yes, there are ill burners and media which produce poorly readble results. But this is _not_ normal. If hardware behaves that way, then it is to blame, and not the burn program. (Even wodims's failures are repeatable.) Have a nice day :) Thomas
Re: How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?
On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 05:59:42PM +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote: > Alternatively: > - Does the wiki have means to discuss facts or to leave messages > to other editors why a particular change was undone ? The "Comment" box on the edit page is the obvious place to state your reason for reverting someone else's change. If you need more space than the wiki revision comment box provides (I don't know how many characters that is in moinmoin off hand, but I think it's a few hundred), then it becomes more of an issue. Moinmoin doesn't maintain a parallel "Talk" page namespace. You can put your explanation directly onto the page itself, if you think it will be of general interest. In the case of the BurnCd page, I actually *do* think that it would be of general interest to readers to have a paragraph explaining the limits of wodim, and when not to use it. As well as the other tools, if they have important restrictions and limits.
How to react on a factually wrong Debian wiki change ?
Hi, is perhaps the Debian wiki user StephenKeeling subscribed here ? We need to discuss the recent wiki change https://wiki.debian.org/BurnCd?action=diff=30=31 Alternatively: - Does the wiki have means to contact a particular Debian wiki user ? - Does the wiki have means to discuss facts or to leave messages to other editors why a particular change was undone ? If Steve McIntyre or Joerg Jaspert, the DDs involved with wodim, are reading this: Could you please confirm this statement of mine ? "wodim should better not be used with DVD or BD media." Have a nice day :) Thomas
