Re: Intermittent WiFi on Network Manager

[tomas]

On Mon, Oct 09, 2023 at 03:06:14PM +, Ottavio Caruso wrote:

[...]

> So, we are all running the same frequencies on mobile phones. We all use
> mobile phones, so we should be all cancelling each other out? Something
> doesn't add up.

Perhaps you should read up on how mobile phones work.

> T H E R E   A R E   N O   M I C R O W A W EO V E N SH E R E !!!

If there's no background noise... why are you shouting?

;-)

Cheers
-- 
t


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Re: Intermittent WiFi on Network Manager

[gene heskett]

On 10/9/23 10:08, Lee wrote:

On 10/8/23, gene heskett  wrote:

On 10/8/23 07:43, Lee wrote:

On 10/7/23, Ottavio Caruso  wrote:

Am 07/10/2023 um 11:11 schrieb gene heskett:

Another possibility is a leaky microwave oven in the vicinity


This is an urban legend and an excuse I was using when I was in tech
support.


It's real.  Try it yourself - run iperf for 2 minutes, display the
bandwidth report every second and then start the microwave for 1
minute.

I get the thruput cut in half or or more when the microwave is on.
Which is an improvement on the previous microwave which used to kill a
wireless connection. (which was super annoying when the wife was doing
work-from-home & I wasn't allowed to use the microwave _at_all_ during
the day.  I suspect that's the reason she got a toaster oven)

Is it fairly well-known that microwave ovens interfere the most on channel
11?
I just tried linssid again and there's a bunch of APs on channel 1 &
6, one on channel 2 and two on channel 8.  Nothing on channel 11.


That, again probably, would be because the microwave does NOT transmit
an SID,


It doesn't transmit anything resembling a wifi frame (packet?), it's
just noise as far as the wifi interface knows.. and not something that
shows up on a wifi analyzer like linssid.

You need a spectrum analyzer to see wifi noise/interference.  I just
took a quick look again for an affordable spectrum analyzer & didn't
see anything.  Then again, my definition of "affordable" is under $50
so I suppose that's not to surprising.

True, a decent spec analyzer starts with the Siglent offering at a 
little over $3G's, so your $50 is missing some zero's.  Really broadband 
that can see beyond 3 gigahertz costs real money and will spend time in 
the cal lab annually because their front end is that fragile, some can 
be destroyed by a 10 milli-watt input signal.

Regards
Lee
.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: Intermittent WiFi on Network Manager

[Lee]

On 10/9/23, Ottavio Caruso  wrote:
> Am 08/10/2023 um 11:42 schrieb Lee:
>> On 10/7/23, Ottavio Caruso  wrote:
>>> Am 07/10/2023 um 11:11 schrieb gene heskett:
 Another possibility is a leaky microwave oven in the vicinity
>>>
>>> This is an urban legend and an excuse I was using when I was in tech
>>> support.
>>
>> It's real.  Try it yourself - run iperf for 2 minutes, display the
>> bandwidth report every second and then start the microwave for 1
>> minute.
>>
>> I get the thruput cut in half or or more when the microwave is on.
>> Which is an improvement on the previous microwave which used to kill a
>> wireless connection. (which was super annoying when the wife was doing
>> work-from-home & I wasn't allowed to use the microwave _at_all_ during
>> the day.  I suspect that's the reason she got a toaster oven)
>>
>> Is it fairly well-known that microwave ovens interfere the most on channel
>> 11?
>> I just tried linssid again and there's a bunch of APs on channel 1 &
>> 6, one on channel 2 and two on channel 8.  Nothing on channel 11.
>>
>> Lee
>>
>>
>
> So the microwave should be running 100% 24/7? What is it? Am I
> surrounded by 24/7 greasy spoons? I'm more inclined to believe in a
> buggy driver implementation. All the nearby Windows laptops run fine.

In other words, you didn't try running iperf and then starting the
microwave, right?
Or you did and don't want to admit that your microwave interferes with wifi.

Either way, take a look at
  
https://www.acrylicwifi.com/en/blog/performing-wifi-spectrum-analysis-information-provided/#How_to_Perform_a_Professional_Site_Survey

scroll down just a bit and see
The most common devices that create interference and noise in a
wireless infrastructure are:

Some of those do run 24/7.  And finally
  
https://www.zdnet.com/article/usb-3-and-usb-c-devices-can-cause-problems-with-wi-fi-and-bluetooth-connections-but-theres-a-solution/
which I've never seen in action, just read about.

Lee

Re: Intermittent WiFi on Network Manager

[gene heskett]

On 10/9/23 07:47, Eduardo M KALINOWSKI wrote:

On 07/10/2023 08:11, gene heskett wrote:
Another possibility is a leaky microwave oven in the vicinity. As 


Also check the color of the microwave: if it's bright magenta, change it 
to a black one.


No, wait, that's SATA cables. Never mind.


Actually Eduardo it can be any cable. First observed in the 1970's at 
the height of the CB radio craze, and the then Japanese dominant radios 
used that color of wire for the microphones push to talk switch. I was 
benching at Norfolk 2-Way Radio, a 2nd afternoon job while careing for 
and feeding a uhf transmitter for the Nebraska ETV Commission and about 
the time we were celebrating our 200th anniversary as a nation, I had 
around 75 radios on the back shelf of the service room, waiting on 
microphone cable replacements I couldn't get cuz by then nearly everyone 
in the cable making business had offshored the making to the J.A.Pan co.


That was the only cable we could get thru our supply chaanels, and its 
life in a large car was much less than a year. Belden finally came to 
our rescue by starting up a line to make coil cord versions, but they 
thought we were roping cattle with them so it took a 40 lb pull on a 2 
foot cable to make it 3 feet. Complaints to the J.A.Pan src's must have 
been read by employee's who spoke or read no English as it took several 
years to get that fixed.


Then the same plastic die started showing up in computers at about the 
same time sata became the interface std.  As the outer jacket color cuz 
it was purty. The actual wire inside may have a different color jacket 
inside the magenta sleeve, but that only prolongs the failure to 3 to 5 
years time frame.


The initial failure shows up in the logs as drive resets.  So if the log 
blows up when one of those colored cables is touched by a pencil, its 
gone, but for a long term fix, use any other color.  It will last 
longer.  A lot longer.


Folks laugh at me, and I guess I'm an urban legend. I'll soon be gone as 
I turned 89 last week. I've done pretty good on an 8th grade education, 
but I tested at IQ of 147 in the 7nth grade. quit school and went to 
work fixing them new things called tv's in 1948.  Got a 1st phone in 
1962 and a job at the local tv station. Saw a notice in the local fish 
wrap that the local Community College was testing for Certified 
Electronics Technician certificates in 1972, walked into the classroom 
of the prof teaching the class the next morning and put my 20 dollar 
bill on his desk. Had 4 hours to do it. I was down with that years flu 
so I spent some time in the john, but finished the test in 45 minutes. 
Raised his eyebrows a long ways when he laid the answer stencil on my 
test papers and saw a sea of black. He had been teaching that class for 
several years. I, a total stranger with a $20 bill for his time, was the 
first to pass that test. Not a single one of his students had passed it. 
That certificate, has gotten me every job I've asked for since, its 
testimony that I do know what the hell I'm doing. Yes, I have made 
mistakes, and I'm honest about it when I do, but this isn't one of them. 
 There is one CET for every hundred EE's who can't pass it.  They 
haven't gotten their hands dirty enough. I've been there, and done that, 
got my hands dirty and learned by doing.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: Intermittent WiFi on Network Manager

[Lee]

On 10/8/23, gene heskett  wrote:
> On 10/8/23 07:43, Lee wrote:
>> On 10/7/23, Ottavio Caruso  wrote:
>>> Am 07/10/2023 um 11:11 schrieb gene heskett:
 Another possibility is a leaky microwave oven in the vicinity
>>>
>>> This is an urban legend and an excuse I was using when I was in tech
>>> support.
>>
>> It's real.  Try it yourself - run iperf for 2 minutes, display the
>> bandwidth report every second and then start the microwave for 1
>> minute.
>>
>> I get the thruput cut in half or or more when the microwave is on.
>> Which is an improvement on the previous microwave which used to kill a
>> wireless connection. (which was super annoying when the wife was doing
>> work-from-home & I wasn't allowed to use the microwave _at_all_ during
>> the day.  I suspect that's the reason she got a toaster oven)
>>
>> Is it fairly well-known that microwave ovens interfere the most on channel
>> 11?
>> I just tried linssid again and there's a bunch of APs on channel 1 &
>> 6, one on channel 2 and two on channel 8.  Nothing on channel 11.
>
> That, again probably, would be because the microwave does NOT transmit
> an SID,

It doesn't transmit anything resembling a wifi frame (packet?), it's
just noise as far as the wifi interface knows.. and not something that
shows up on a wifi analyzer like linssid.

You need a spectrum analyzer to see wifi noise/interference.  I just
took a quick look again for an affordable spectrum analyzer & didn't
see anything.  Then again, my definition of "affordable" is under $50
so I suppose that's not to surprising.

Regards
Lee

Re: Intermittent WiFi on Network Manager

[Eduardo M KALINOWSKI]

On 07/10/2023 08:11, gene heskett wrote:
Another possibility is a leaky microwave oven in the vicinity. As 


Also check the color of the microwave: if it's bright magenta, change it 
to a black one.


No, wait, that's SATA cables. Never mind.

--
Wedding rings are the world's smallest handcuffs.

Eduardo M KALINOWSKI
edua...@kalinowski.com.br

Re: Intermittent WiFi on Network Manager

[gene heskett]

On 10/8/23 07:43, Lee wrote:

On 10/7/23, Ottavio Caruso  wrote:

Am 07/10/2023 um 11:11 schrieb gene heskett:

Another possibility is a leaky microwave oven in the vicinity


This is an urban legend and an excuse I was using when I was in tech
support.


It's real.  Try it yourself - run iperf for 2 minutes, display the
bandwidth report every second and then start the microwave for 1
minute.

I get the thruput cut in half or or more when the microwave is on.
Which is an improvement on the previous microwave which used to kill a
wireless connection. (which was super annoying when the wife was doing
work-from-home & I wasn't allowed to use the microwave _at_all_ during
the day.  I suspect that's the reason she got a toaster oven)

Is it fairly well-known that microwave ovens interfere the most on channel 11?
I just tried linssid again and there's a bunch of APs on channel 1 &
6, one on channel 2 and two on channel 8.  Nothing on channel 11.

Lee


That, again probably, would be because the microwave does NOT transmit 
an SID, carrier strength would be a giveaway if the receiver could be 
heard, probably as a loud 120 or 100 hz(in 50 cycle nations) hum. High 
voltage caps are expen$ive so the HV supply that powers the magnetron is 
rarely filtered, just rectified.  The normal wifi modulation mode is 
FSK, often with a modified to an NRZ to balance the energy levels in 
each state. That I'd have to look it up and don't have a copy of that 
particular CFR rulebook to check.

.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: Intermittent WiFi on Network Manager

[Lee]

On 10/7/23, Ottavio Caruso  wrote:
> Am 07/10/2023 um 11:11 schrieb gene heskett:
>> Another possibility is a leaky microwave oven in the vicinity
>
> This is an urban legend and an excuse I was using when I was in tech
> support.

It's real.  Try it yourself - run iperf for 2 minutes, display the
bandwidth report every second and then start the microwave for 1
minute.

I get the thruput cut in half or or more when the microwave is on.
Which is an improvement on the previous microwave which used to kill a
wireless connection. (which was super annoying when the wife was doing
work-from-home & I wasn't allowed to use the microwave _at_all_ during
the day.  I suspect that's the reason she got a toaster oven)

Is it fairly well-known that microwave ovens interfere the most on channel 11?
I just tried linssid again and there's a bunch of APs on channel 1 &
6, one on channel 2 and two on channel 8.  Nothing on channel 11.

Lee

Re: Intermittent WiFi on Network Manager

[gene heskett]

On 10/7/23 11:42, Ottavio Caruso wrote:

Am 07/10/2023 um 15:21 schrieb gene heskett:

On 10/7/23 09:08, Ottavio Caruso wrote:

Am 07/10/2023 um 11:11 schrieb gene heskett:

Another possibility is a leaky microwave oven in the vicinity


This is an urban legend and an excuse I was using when I was in tech 
support.


Wireless cards w/o good pre-selectivity, which is all the ones we can 
get these days because of the pricing, WILL be interfered with by a 
leaky microwave, they are only about 5% different in operating 
frequency. Figuraively speaking, that microwave is 80 to 100 db louder 
than the wifi radio.  To design a wifi radio front end that would 
reliably reject the much "louder" microwave, would occupy 20x the 
cubic volume of todays wifi insert card that plugs into wannabe 
versions of the pi, or any number of 3d printer controllers and would 
likely cost close to 20x the cost of that postage stamp sized card.


And you are arguing with a broadcast engineer whose 1st phone dates 
from 63 years ago.  Yes, I've been there, and done that.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.


We have color tv and stereo FM nowadays. And fax machines.

AS if you think I don't know that. I've converted several tv 
transmitters to work in this new thing called hidef. Do you have a 
C.E.T. to go with your know it all certificate?  I am also a Certified 
Electronics Technician. We teach EE's what they didn't learn in school. 
Getting our hands dirty fixing their mistakes.


I never claimed that /was/ the OP's problem, just suggesting a 
possibility to be investigated.   Its called thinking outside the box. 
Apparently something you rarely do.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: Intermittent WiFi on Network Manager

[Max Nikulin]

On 07/10/2023 18:11, gene heskett wrote:

On 10/7/23 05:17, Ottavio Caruso wrote:

options iwlwifi bt_coex_active=0 swcrypto=1 11n_disable=8

to

/etc/modprobe.d/iwlwifi.conf


Another possibility is a leaky microwave oven in the vicinity.


I consider buggy firmware as a more plausible cause of crashes when 
Intel WiFi card wakes up.

Re: Intermittent WiFi on Network Manager

[gene heskett]

On 10/7/23 09:08, Ottavio Caruso wrote:

Am 07/10/2023 um 11:11 schrieb gene heskett:

Another possibility is a leaky microwave oven in the vicinity


This is an urban legend and an excuse I was using when I was in tech 
support.


Wireless cards w/o good pre-selectivity, which is all the ones we can 
get these days because of the pricing, WILL be interfered with by a 
leaky microwave, they are only about 5% different in operating 
frequency. Figuraively speaking, that microwave is 80 to 100 db louder 
than the wifi radio.  To design a wifi radio front end that would 
reliably reject the much "louder" microwave, would occupy 20x the cubic 
volume of todays wifi insert card that plugs into wannabe versions of 
the pi, or any number of 3d printer controllers and would likely cost 
close to 20x the cost of that postage stamp sized card.


And you are arguing with a broadcast engineer whose 1st phone dates from 
63 years ago.  Yes, I've been there, and done that.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: Intermittent WiFi on Network Manager

[gene heskett]

On 10/7/23 05:17, Ottavio Caruso wrote:

Am 05/10/2023 um 09:41 schrieb Timothy M Butterworth:

Hello,

I am running Debian 12.  I have noticed for a little while now that 
WiFi is

intermittent. It goes through cycles of deactivation and activation. It
does this on multiple WiFi networks so I know it is not an AP problem.

I have network-manager/stable,now 1.42.4-1 amd64 installed.

Has anyone else noticed this?

Thanks

Tim



I am on Debian 11 but I have a similar problem.

Have you tried adding:

options iwlwifi bt_coex_active=0 swcrypto=1 11n_disable=8

to

/etc/modprobe.d/iwlwifi.conf

and reboot?

Fingers crossed, it seems to improve my situation a bit.


Another possibility is a leaky microwave oven in the vicinity. As 
broadcasters, we are required to show that our transmitters are safe for 
the operating personnel and are required to survey the area around the 
transmitter as safe for people to be in for extended periods of time, so 
we have to measure the leakage with a calibrated meter at license 
renewal every 5 years.  So I rented the metering device and when I was 
done was instructed to ship it to another instate station which I did. 
He got it, unpacked it and carried it to the break room to study the 
instructions. Someone came in to warm up a cuppa and the microwave 10 
feet away set it off well beyond the alarm trigger level. The door 
hinges were worn so the door was about 1/16" from properly closing. A 
rental oven, it was replaced by lunch time, with one that didn't leak.



Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: Intermittent WiFi on Network Manager

[Timothy M Butterworth]

On Thu, Oct 5, 2023 at 5:47 AM Marco  wrote:

> Am 05.10.2023 schrieb Timothy M Butterworth
> :
>
> > I am running Debian 12.  I have noticed for a little while now that
> > WiFi is intermittent. It goes through cycles of deactivation and
> > activation. It does this on multiple WiFi networks so I know it is
> > not an AP problem.
>
> What does dmesg say?
>

I have a lot of these messages:

[61983.896571] rtw_8822ce :02:00.0: timed out to flush queue 1
[61987.713238] wlo1: authenticate with 8e:02:cc:59:65:89
[61988.020656] wlo1: send auth to 8e:02:cc:59:65:89 (try 1/3)
[61988.029771] wlo1: authenticated
[61988.032472] wlo1: associate with 8e:02:cc:59:65:89 (try 1/3)
[61988.073107] wlo1: RX AssocResp from 8e:02:cc:59:65:89 (capab=0x411
status=0 aid=2)
[61988.073429] wlo1: associated
[61999.096833] wlo1: Connection to AP 8e:02:cc:59:65:89 lost

[61999.424547] rtw_8822ce :02:00.0: timed out to flush queue 1
[62003.317216] wlo1: authenticate with 8e:02:cc:59:65:89
[62003.624655] wlo1: send auth to 8e:02:cc:59:65:89 (try 1/3)
[62003.634826] wlo1: authenticated
[62003.640352] wlo1: associate with 8e:02:cc:59:65:89 (try 1/3)
[62003.665616] wlo1: RX AssocResp from 8e:02:cc:59:65:89 (capab=0x411
status=0 aid=2)
[62003.665936] wlo1: associated
[62012.579069] wlo1: Connection to AP 8e:02:cc:59:65:89 lost



> Does it happen with other operating systems too?
>

I only have debian installed. My MacBook Pro connects to the same AP with
no issues using both MacOS and Windows. My Amazon Fire Tablet also connects
with no issues.

-- 
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org/
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀

Re: Intermittent WiFi on Network Manager

[Marco]

Am 05.10.2023 schrieb Timothy M Butterworth
:

> I am running Debian 12.  I have noticed for a little while now that
> WiFi is intermittent. It goes through cycles of deactivation and
> activation. It does this on multiple WiFi networks so I know it is
> not an AP problem.

What does dmesg say?

Does it happen with other operating systems too?

Intermittent WiFi on Network Manager

[Timothy M Butterworth]

Hello,

I am running Debian 12.  I have noticed for a little while now that WiFi is
intermittent. It goes through cycles of deactivation and activation. It
does this on multiple WiFi networks so I know it is not an AP problem.

I have network-manager/stable,now 1.42.4-1 amd64 installed.

Has anyone else noticed this?

Thanks

Tim

-- 
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org/
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀