Re: Is grub perfect? (was Re: Does LXDE really require lightdm?)
Le 30.06.2014 20:33, Ric Moore a écrit : On 06/30/2014 06:24 AM, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: Le 28.06.2014 05:14, slitt a écrit : On Sat, 28 Jun 2014 09:33:57 +0900 Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Jun 28, 2014 at 7:48 AM, [...] Grub is a *boot loader*. Lately (last few years), it seems to be trying to do a lot more. What do you expect it to do? Mind read? I'd almost say that's one of the things the devs are trying to make it do. I have a feeling that a lot of this thread got procmailed to my /dev/null, but for the person who asked what I wanted it to do, that's simple: Boot the damn computer with a menu to choose predefined kernel/initrd/disk combinations, and nothing else. And for gosh sakes, keep it in one file. If a config option is about pretty, leave that feature out. In other words, grub1. SteveT Otherwise, if you do not like grub, there are other boot loaders. LILO at least works fine, and seems to be ok for your requirements: a single easy text file as configuration. It's what I'm doing, excepted at work for 2 reasons: it does not seems to support the new crap named... how is it named? Secure boot? Something like that. The fun thing about that is that the grub installation did not allowed me to have a dual boot with the original windows, so I could be using LILO right now it would not change anything. The other reason is that I do prefer mainstream stuff on computers that I do not want to tinker. Never had any problem with LILO, but just in case... I installed grub-customizer from source and it works a charm, with grub2. Ric Oh, and (sorry for long time reply, I did not found lot of time to read my personal mails) there is another bootloader in the wild. Extlinux. I'm tinkering with it, since I want to build an external disk able to boot various live ISOs (tails and kali to name them) plus 3 distros (probably Debian for real uses, plus gentoo and a *BSD for experimenting). For now my disk was not bootable, but that's a story for another thread, in the case I won't be able to solve my issue myself. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/4ebd17ad78c9be7b9fd1a5be4a4a8...@neutralite.org
Re: Is grub perfect? (was Re: Does LXDE really require lightdm?)
On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 9:44 PM, Rusi Mody rustompm...@gmail.com wrote: On Tuesday, July 1, 2014 3:40:02 AM UTC+5:30, Tom H wrote: On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Brian wrote: On Mon 30 Jun 2014 at 14:05:10 -0400, Tom H wrote: On Sat, Jun 28, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Rusi Mody wrote: I use the grub command configfile (also multiboot). What do they do? Where are they documented? [I got the tips on usage on the grub mailing list] I don't know whether configfile and multiboot are documented in the info pages (I find info unusable) but this is the upstream grub manual: A few years ago the complaints about grub's documentation were possibly justified. Today, less so, And even if there are improvements which can made it is hardly a justification for the bring back grub legacy and give us abandoned software faction to be considered at all seriously. configfile is documented in the info pages. The multiboot command replaces the kernel command; you're on your own with that! Why do you think that grub2's multiboot replaces grub1's kernel? Its main use is to load the core.img of another grub2 install. I don't think that you can load a kernel with it. The grub guys explaining (to me!) the configfile and multiboot commands: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-grub/2011-01/msg00029.html The grub guys (I don't know what makes you think that the person who answered you is associated with grub in any way because grub-help@ is similar to debian-user@) are telling you in that post exactly what I told you: multiboot is used to load the core.img of another grub2 install. The kernel grub1 command loads the kernel of another install. I've never seen an instance of (or the documentation for) kernel loading a grub1 stage1_5 or stage2. I really dont want to get into the quality of docs argument. Unsurprising since you're wrong! LOL -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAOdo=sx-tuy-ggd6oclfcgeoc+-6z8wq9zxlb07ovihk6cb...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Is grub perfect? (was Re: Does LXDE really require lightdm?)
On Tue 01 Jul 2014 at 03:43:37 -0400, Tom H wrote: On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 9:44 PM, Rusi Mody rustompm...@gmail.com wrote: On Tuesday, July 1, 2014 3:40:02 AM UTC+5:30, Tom H wrote: Why do you think that grub2's multiboot replaces grub1's kernel? Its main use is to load the core.img of another grub2 install. I don't think that you can load a kernel with it. The grub guys explaining (to me!) the configfile and multiboot commands: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-grub/2011-01/msg00029.html The grub guys (I don't know what makes you think that the person who answered you is associated with grub in any way because grub-help@ is similar to debian-user@) are telling you in that post exactly what I told you: multiboot is used to load the core.img of another grub2 install. The kernel grub1 command loads the kernel of another install. I've never seen an instance of (or the documentation for) kernel loading a grub1 stage1_5 or stage2. Ineptness on my part. I was working from memory and, in addition, omitted the word line after command. Not that restoring it increases the usefulness of the contribution above its original 0%. I really dont want to get into the quality of docs argument. Unsurprising since you're wrong! LOL He is right about the high quality advice from respondents (some are grub developers) on help-grub, though. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2014070430.gf3...@copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: Is grub perfect? (was Re: Does LXDE really require lightdm?)
Le 28.06.2014 05:14, slitt a écrit : On Sat, 28 Jun 2014 09:33:57 +0900 Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Jun 28, 2014 at 7:48 AM, [...] Grub is a *boot loader*. Lately (last few years), it seems to be trying to do a lot more. What do you expect it to do? Mind read? I'd almost say that's one of the things the devs are trying to make it do. I have a feeling that a lot of this thread got procmailed to my /dev/null, but for the person who asked what I wanted it to do, that's simple: Boot the damn computer with a menu to choose predefined kernel/initrd/disk combinations, and nothing else. And for gosh sakes, keep it in one file. If a config option is about pretty, leave that feature out. In other words, grub1. SteveT Otherwise, if you do not like grub, there are other boot loaders. LILO at least works fine, and seems to be ok for your requirements: a single easy text file as configuration. It's what I'm doing, excepted at work for 2 reasons: it does not seems to support the new crap named... how is it named? Secure boot? Something like that. The fun thing about that is that the grub installation did not allowed me to have a dual boot with the original windows, so I could be using LILO right now it would not change anything. The other reason is that I do prefer mainstream stuff on computers that I do not want to tinker. Never had any problem with LILO, but just in case... I guess that there are other boot loaders (able to work on ext* file systems, of course) too around, but I do not know them. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/f22e9dc3a149d12f230fd6a4c8490...@neutralite.org
Re: Is grub perfect? (was Re: Does LXDE really require lightdm?)
On Mon, 30 Jun 2014 12:24:41 +0200 berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: Otherwise, if you do not like grub, there are other boot loaders. LILO at least works fine, and seems to be ok for your requirements: a single easy text file as configuration. It's what I'm doing, excepted at work for 2 reasons: it does not seems to support the new crap named... how is it named? Secure boot? Something like that. The fun thing about that is that the grub installation did not allowed me to have a dual boot with the original windows, so I could be using LILO right now it would not change anything. The other reason is that I do prefer mainstream stuff on computers that I do not want to tinker. Never had any problem with LILO, but just in case... Thanks for the great suggestion. I had originally ruled out LILO (which I used back in the 20th century) because it can't deal with EFI boot, as I remember. But (let's all take some time to laugh), my boot disk is a 250 SSD with an MRB partition, so EFI (and secure boot) is a non-issue. So you know what? If I ever lose my boot and can't grub2-fix it in 20 minutes, I'll try LILO. I liked Grub1 better than LILO because Grub understands ext[2|3|4], so you don't need to do all the recursive thinking and the weird jails to install Grub, and having a boot file change its sector doesn't remove your bootability, really, LILO was pretty predictable once you really understood it. You know, I have a bunch of too-tiny disks hanging around, and my intent was to take them out to the driveway and do my 24 oz hammer drive-wipe on them. Instead, I think I'll take a page from your book, and use those drives for nothing but / and /boot and maybe /usr, and use a modern 1TB drive for the rest, and then I can use LILO. I guess that there are other boot loaders (able to work on ext* file systems, of course) too around, but I do not know them. Most can't understand EFI boot, which removes them from contention for a lot of jobs. The booter meant for booting floppies and CDs can be hacked to boot your system, but as I remember when researching it, it was ugly. I don't know how big the current Grub source code is, but maybe I should just grab it, remove all code bestowing pretty, get rid of grub.d and just have everything in grub.conf, and call it SimpleGrub. To paraphrase Henry Ford, SimpleGrub is available in any color scheme you want, as long as you want white text on black background. Thanks for the great suggestion. I'm going to use it just as soon as I get a chance. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140630105341.65ca9...@mydesq2.domain.cxm
Re: Is grub perfect? (was Re: Does LXDE really require lightdm?)
On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 10:53:41AM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: On Mon, 30 Jun 2014 12:24:41 +0200 berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: Otherwise, if you do not like grub, there are other boot loaders. LILO at least works fine, and seems to be ok for your requirements: a single easy text file as configuration. It's what I'm doing, excepted at work for 2 reasons: it does not seems to support the new crap named... how is it named? Secure boot? Something like that. The fun thing about that is that the grub installation did not allowed me to have a dual boot with the original windows, so I could be using LILO right now it would not change anything. The other reason is that I do prefer mainstream stuff on computers that I do not want to tinker. Never had any problem with LILO, but just in case... Thanks for the great suggestion. I had originally ruled out LILO (which I used back in the 20th century) because it can't deal with EFI boot, No, but there's a ... I'm not sure if it's a fork of LILO or a totally separate project ... called ELILO that can be booted from EFI. as I remember. But (let's all take some time to laugh), my boot disk is a 250 SSD with an MRB partition, so EFI (and secure boot) is a non-issue. As I understand it, the ability for EFI to boot from an MBR is optional (EFI + GPT is mandatory, but some firmwares allow EFI + MBR). YMMV. So you know what? If I ever lose my boot and can't grub2-fix it in 20 minutes, I'll try LILO. I liked Grub1 better than LILO because Grub understands ext[2|3|4], so you don't need to do all the recursive thinking and the weird jails to install Grub, and having a boot file change its sector doesn't remove your bootability, really, LILO was pretty predictable once you really understood it. You know, I have a bunch of too-tiny disks hanging around, and my intent was to take them out to the driveway and do my 24 oz hammer drive-wipe on them. Instead, I think I'll take a page from your book, and use those drives for nothing but / and /boot and maybe /usr, and use a modern 1TB drive for the rest, and then I can use LILO. I guess that there are other boot loaders (able to work on ext* file systems, of course) too around, but I do not know them. Most can't understand EFI boot, which removes them from contention for a lot of jobs. The booter meant for booting floppies and CDs can be hacked to boot your system, but as I remember when researching it, it was ugly. I don't know how big the current Grub source code is, but maybe I should just grab it, remove all code bestowing pretty, get rid of grub.d and just have everything in grub.conf, and call it SimpleGrub. To paraphrase Henry Ford, SimpleGrub is available in any color scheme you want, as long as you want white text on black background. Thanks for the great suggestion. I'm going to use it just as soon as I get a chance. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140630105341.65ca9...@mydesq2.domain.cxm -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140630150632.ga5...@darac.org.uk
Re: Is grub perfect? (was Re: Does LXDE really require lightdm?)
On Mon, 30 Jun 2014 10:53:41 -0400 Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: Thanks for the great suggestion. I had originally ruled out LILO (which I used back in the 20th century) because it can't deal with EFI boot, as I remember. But (let's all take some time to laugh), my boot disk is a 250 SSD with an MRB partition, so EFI (and secure boot) is a non-issue. Be careful if you use RAID with LILOn though: it doesn't handle the last version of the RAID header. -- neo93: Why wasn't you at school?? The blonde: I had a 37° fever signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Is grub perfect? (was Re: Does LXDE really require lightdm?)
On Sat, Jun 28, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Rusi Mody rustompm...@gmail.com wrote: On Saturday, June 28, 2014 9:20:02 PM UTC+5:30, Brian wrote: On Sat 28 Jun 2014 at 09:00:30 +0200, Thierry de Coulon wrote: On Saturday 28 June 2014 05.55:39 Rusi Mody wrote: PS. No I am not defending grub2 -- I find its documentation almost non-existent -- just my survival strategies :-) Yes, this is one problem. There are others: 20 man pages and an info manual amounts to non-existent documentation? I use the grub command configfile (also multiboot). What do they do? Where are they documented? [I got the tips on usage on the grub mailing list] I don't know whether configfile and multiboot are documented in the info pages (I find info unusable) but this is the upstream grub manual: http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/manual/html_node/index.html I've just looked at the debian wiki's documentation and it's surpringly sparse; unless I landed on the wrong page. ubuntuforums.org has a very good documentation thread/sticky and the arch and gentoo wikis have good documentation. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAOdo=Sw6t7UoNvRoU2Yk3OE02tg8-prty-p5Tp6xopi=lxd...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Is grub perfect? (was Re: Does LXDE really require lightdm?)
On Sat, Jun 28, 2014 at 10:12 PM, Rusi Mody rustompm...@gmail.com wrote: There used to be a grub wiki: grub.enbug.org. The link is now dead. It can however still be found in the webarchive: https://web.archive.org/web/20100819173835/http://grub.enbug.org/FrontPage The grub manual that I posted earlier was somewhat inspired by the engrub pages. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAOdo=sxtmhhczz5ljwl-owbbeego-zumxhdfbhdcnpr_wbd...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Is grub perfect? (was Re: Does LXDE really require lightdm?)
On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 10:53 AM, Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com wrote: On Mon, 30 Jun 2014 12:24:41 +0200 berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: Otherwise, if you do not like grub, there are other boot loaders. LILO at least works fine, and seems to be ok for your requirements: a single easy text file as configuration. It's what I'm doing, excepted at work for 2 reasons: it does not seems to support the new crap named... how is it named? Secure boot? Something like that. The fun thing about that is that the grub installation did not allowed me to have a dual boot with the original windows, so I could be using LILO right now it would not change anything. The other reason is that I do prefer mainstream stuff on computers that I do not want to tinker. Never had any problem with LILO, but just in case... Thanks for the great suggestion. I had originally ruled out LILO (which I used back in the 20th century) because it can't deal with EFI boot, as I remember. But (let's all take some time to laugh), my boot disk is a 250 SSD with an MRB partition, so EFI (and secure boot) is a non-issue. There's elilo. I've never used it so I have no idea how close it is to lilo config-wise. There are also gummiboot and refind. Neither are packaged for Debian but they're both good efi boot managers. If you don't like systemd you might not like gummiboot because it's developed by Kay Sievers. It's what I use on my laptop. Another reason that you might not like it is that you have to have your kernel and initramfs on the efi partition. refind on the other hand is slightly more complex and understands some filesystems so you don't need to mount the efi partition as /boot or copy the kernel and initramfs to /boot/efi. They're both boot managers not bootloaders so you have to ensure that the efi stub is compiled into the kernel. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAOdo=sxryqwezcazpmsodh4n8-mqtm6zhxd7fboevamzx0u...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Is grub perfect? (was Re: Does LXDE really require lightdm?)
On 06/30/2014 06:24 AM, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: Le 28.06.2014 05:14, slitt a écrit : On Sat, 28 Jun 2014 09:33:57 +0900 Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Jun 28, 2014 at 7:48 AM, [...] Grub is a *boot loader*. Lately (last few years), it seems to be trying to do a lot more. What do you expect it to do? Mind read? I'd almost say that's one of the things the devs are trying to make it do. I have a feeling that a lot of this thread got procmailed to my /dev/null, but for the person who asked what I wanted it to do, that's simple: Boot the damn computer with a menu to choose predefined kernel/initrd/disk combinations, and nothing else. And for gosh sakes, keep it in one file. If a config option is about pretty, leave that feature out. In other words, grub1. SteveT Otherwise, if you do not like grub, there are other boot loaders. LILO at least works fine, and seems to be ok for your requirements: a single easy text file as configuration. It's what I'm doing, excepted at work for 2 reasons: it does not seems to support the new crap named... how is it named? Secure boot? Something like that. The fun thing about that is that the grub installation did not allowed me to have a dual boot with the original windows, so I could be using LILO right now it would not change anything. The other reason is that I do prefer mainstream stuff on computers that I do not want to tinker. Never had any problem with LILO, but just in case... I installed grub-customizer from source and it works a charm, with grub2. Ric -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/53b1ad6e.2000...@gmail.com
Re: Is grub perfect? (was Re: Does LXDE really require lightdm?)
On Mon 30 Jun 2014 at 14:05:10 -0400, Tom H wrote: On Sat, Jun 28, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Rusi Mody rustompm...@gmail.com wrote: I use the grub command configfile (also multiboot). What do they do? Where are they documented? [I got the tips on usage on the grub mailing list] I don't know whether configfile and multiboot are documented in the info pages (I find info unusable) but this is the upstream grub manual: A few years ago the complaints about grub's documentation were possibly justified. Today, less so, And even if there are improvements which can made it is hardly a justification for the bring back grub legacy and give us abandoned software faction to be considered at all seriously. configfile is documented in the info pages. The multiboot command replaces the kernel command; you're on your own with that! http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/manual/html_node/index.html I've just looked at the debian wiki's documentation and it's surpringly sparse; unless I landed on the wrong page. ubuntuforums.org has a very good documentation thread/sticky and the arch and gentoo wikis have good documentation. Regretably so. But all three *are* wikis. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/30062014192225.cbffe24af...@desktop.copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: Is grub perfect? (was Re: Does LXDE really require lightdm?)
On Mon 30 Jun 2014 at 16:06:32 +0100, Darac Marjal wrote: On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 10:53:41AM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: Thanks for the great suggestion. I had originally ruled out LILO (which I used back in the 20th century) because it can't deal with EFI boot, No, but there's a ... I'm not sure if it's a fork of LILO or a totally separate project ... called ELILO that can be booted from EFI. Should suit people who demand their software to be either abandoned or unlikely to have any further development. The problem with it is that its developer has a liking for the dark side. http://sourceforge.net/p/elilo/mailman/message/31524008/ Off-note: Is ELILO still under active development? Because there seems to be no update after v3.16 which was released in March 2013 (8 months ago). Even if it is no longer actively maintained, providing the sources via GIT will allow contributors to fork the code and maintain it in github/gitorious/bitbucket etc.. Elilo is still actively maintained solely by me but no longer in active development. Elilo was designed in the early 2000's for EFI and Itanium, thats why it exists. As neither of those are very relevant any more It is legacy code at the end of its life cycle naturally. Im really not accepting new features or new feature requests. New releases are for major bug fixes for people that just cant live without elilo and thats about it and I have no bugs waiting to release. New bootloader efforts and contributions should rightfully go to Grub2. It is in active development, has many active contributors and is accepting new features and it supports UEFI and secure boot now and is finally fairly well positioned to fulfill its original intention of being the GRand Unified Bootloader. It could be so if it supported network booting and really if elilo didnt exist anymore Im sure that somebody wouldve contributed the feature by now, most likely from a cloud team. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140630193254.ge3...@copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: Is grub perfect? (was Re: Does LXDE really require lightdm?)
On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Brian a...@cityscape.co.uk wrote: On Mon 30 Jun 2014 at 14:05:10 -0400, Tom H wrote: On Sat, Jun 28, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Rusi Mody rustompm...@gmail.com wrote: I use the grub command configfile (also multiboot). What do they do? Where are they documented? [I got the tips on usage on the grub mailing list] I don't know whether configfile and multiboot are documented in the info pages (I find info unusable) but this is the upstream grub manual: A few years ago the complaints about grub's documentation were possibly justified. Today, less so, And even if there are improvements which can made it is hardly a justification for the bring back grub legacy and give us abandoned software faction to be considered at all seriously. configfile is documented in the info pages. The multiboot command replaces the kernel command; you're on your own with that! Why do you think that grub2's multiboot replaces grub1's kernel? Its main use is to load the core.img of another grub2 install. I don't think that you can load a kernel with it. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAOdo=syqe3n25e0tx9-qt_vbzovfogqeuhoozgptjuc--je...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Is grub perfect? (was Re: Does LXDE really require lightdm?)
On Tuesday, July 1, 2014 3:40:02 AM UTC+5:30, Tom H wrote: On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Brian wrote: On Mon 30 Jun 2014 at 14:05:10 -0400, Tom H wrote: On Sat, Jun 28, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Rusi Mody wrote: I use the grub command configfile (also multiboot). What do they do? Where are they documented? [I got the tips on usage on the grub mailing list] I don't know whether configfile and multiboot are documented in the info pages (I find info unusable) but this is the upstream grub manual: A few years ago the complaints about grub's documentation were possibly justified. Today, less so, And even if there are improvements which can made it is hardly a justification for the bring back grub legacy and give us abandoned software faction to be considered at all seriously. configfile is documented in the info pages. The multiboot command replaces the kernel command; you're on your own with that! Why do you think that grub2's multiboot replaces grub1's kernel? Its main use is to load the core.img of another grub2 install. I don't think that you can load a kernel with it. The grub guys explaining (to me!) the configfile and multiboot commands: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-grub/2011-01/msg00029.html I really dont want to get into the quality of docs argument. Just giving the above to offset the claim that grub devs are 'patronizing' -- this has not been my experience -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/0857054a-4c91-4613-b2d6-944a95c88...@googlegroups.com
Re: Is grub perfect? (was Re: Does LXDE really require lightdm?)
On Sat 28 Jun 2014 at 19:12:14 -0700, Rusi Mody wrote: On Sunday, June 29, 2014 4:00:01 AM UTC+5:30, Brian wrote: Deficiencies in existing documentation don't match up with a claim of its being almost non-existent. The present documention would be of help to most users for most things, but I suppose your examples above only go to show that grub isn't perfect. [For anyone who finds this and has an itch to explore the limbo between non-existent and non-perfect]: There used to be a grub wiki: grub.enbug.org. The link is now dead. It can however still be found in the webarchive: https://web.archive.org/web/20100819173835/http://grub.enbug.org/FrontPage https://web.archive.org/web/20100515182153/http://grub.enbug.org/FranklinPiat/grub_modules.manpage is the type of documentation which I think you would like to see in the present grub. Unlike most of the other man pages listed at the bottom of the page it has not made it there. Perhaps it is waiting for someone to update and maintain it. Of the cited 213 modules about 80 concern commands. These are documented in the info manual, So things aren't as bad as they look. :) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140629142719.gc3...@copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: Is grub perfect? (was Re: Does LXDE really require lightdm?)
On Sun 29 Jun 2014 at 11:33:29 +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
On 6/28/14, Brian a...@cityscape.co.uk wrote:
On Fri 27 Jun 2014 at 23:14:26 -0400, slitt wrote:
that's simple: Boot the damn computer with a menu to choose predefined
kernel/initrd/disk combinations, and nothing else. And for gosh sakes,
keep it in one file. If a config option is about pretty, leave that
feature out.
The simplest possible grub.cfg would contain
menuentry DescriptiveMenuItem {
linux (hd0,msdos1)/vmlinuz root=/dev/sda1
initrd (hd0,msdos1)/initrd.gz
}
This assumes a machine with a single disk and the root file system
(essentially where /sbin/init resides) on the first partition of the
same disk.
There we are, a predefined kernel/initrd/disk combination. Four lines in
a single file. Problem solved.
No it's not! will be the cry, update-grub will overwite my grub.cfg.
Correct; so use dpkg-divert on /usr/sbin/update-grub and those nasty,
prettifying files in /etc/default/grub and /etc/grub.d will languish
unused. The problem is now well and truly solved.
That was _awesome_!
Thank you so much Brian!
Thank you, but I'm embarassed now because the diverting wasn't explained.
dpkg-divert --rename --add /usr/sbin/update-grub
ln -s /bin/true /usr/sbin/update-grub
The first command ensures any new file version is put on your machine.
The second one does nothing, which is what is wanted if grub.cfg is to
remain unalterd when, for example, there is a new kernel installed.
The idea is courtesy of Colin Watson, Debian, Ubuntu and GRUB developer.
I often use a very minimal grub.cfg on USB sticks which move between
machines and then the stanza above is better as
menuentry DescriptiveMenuItem {
search --label --set=root LABEL [or use UUID]
linux /vmlinuz root=/dev/sda1
initrd /initrd.gz
}
search determines the grub device ((hd0,msdos1), say) and puts it
before /vmlinuz and /initrd, making the two stanzas equivalent. The
second is obviously more reliable because it removes the guesswork.
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Re: Is grub perfect? (was Re: Does LXDE really require lightdm?)
On Saturday 28 June 2014 05.55:39 Rusi Mody wrote:
PS. No I am not defending grub2 -- I find its documentation almost
non-existent -- just my survival strategies :-)
Yes, this is one problem. There are others:
- what documentation is existent is not easy to undestand, syntax is
complicated. Trial and error is not good when you're playing with your boot
manager.
- Grub ('s developpers) is patronizing: why make it so difficult to install on
a partition? To tell you it's not reliable is one thing, to try and forbid it
is another.
- Assuming that UUIDs are better is just one way to look at it. That's right
for people who add disks to a computer. Clone a disk and you'll be happy
you used labels
While I do see the power of Grub 2, I too wish we could go back to the
efficience and simplicity of Grub 1.
And I don't know if this is Grub or the distribution, but I've regularely
experienced MS-like behaviour: you tell the installer to put Grub on the
root partition, but it does install on your MBR.
Thierry
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Re: Is grub perfect? (was Re: Does LXDE really require lightdm?)
On Fri 27 Jun 2014 at 23:14:26 -0400, slitt wrote:
On Sat, 28 Jun 2014 09:33:57 +0900
Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, Jun 28, 2014 at 7:48 AM, [...]
Grub is a *boot loader*.
Lately (last few years), it seems to be trying to do a lot more.
What do you expect it to do? Mind read?
I'd almost say that's one of the things the devs are trying to make
it do.
I have a feeling that a lot of this thread got procmailed to
my /dev/null, but for the person who asked what I wanted it to do,
You'll miss an awfully lot of good stuff doing that. Plus the chance to
help other users.
that's simple: Boot the damn computer with a menu to choose predefined
kernel/initrd/disk combinations, and nothing else. And for gosh sakes,
keep it in one file. If a config option is about pretty, leave that
feature out.
The simplest possible grub.cfg would contain
menuentry DescriptiveMenuItem {
linux (hd0,msdos1)/vmlinuz root=/dev/sda1
initrd (hd0,msdos1)/initrd.gz
}
This assumes a machine with a single disk and the root file system
(essentially where /sbin/init resides) on the first partition of the
same disk.
There we are, a predefined kernel/initrd/disk combination. Four lines in
a single file. Problem solved.
No it's not! will be the cry, update-grub will overwite my grub.cfg.
Correct; so use dpkg-divert on /usr/sbin/update-grub and those nasty,
prettifying files in /etc/default/grub and /etc/grub.d will languish
unused. The problem is now well and truly solved.
In other words, grub1.
Why use abandoned software (grub legacy) when the power of grub and
Debian can be leveraged?
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Re: Is grub perfect? (was Re: Does LXDE really require lightdm?)
On Sat 28 Jun 2014 at 09:00:30 +0200, Thierry de Coulon wrote:
On Saturday 28 June 2014 05.55:39 Rusi Mody wrote:
PS. No I am not defending grub2 -- I find its documentation almost
non-existent -- just my survival strategies :-)
Yes, this is one problem. There are others:
20 man pages and an info manual amounts to non-existent documentation?
- what documentation is existent is not easy to undestand, syntax is
complicated. Trial and error is not good when you're playing with your boot
manager.
A better case would be made by giving examples of hard to understand
passages and complicated syntax.
- Grub ('s developpers) is patronizing: why make it so difficult to install
on
a partition? To tell you it's not reliable is one thing, to try and forbid it
is another.
Having a --force option to grub-install doesn't look like an attempt
to forbid installing to a partition.
- Assuming that UUIDs are better is just one way to look at it. That's
right
for people who add disks to a computer. Clone a disk and you'll be happy
you used labels
UUIDs are good for everyone. You give a decent example where labels are
very useful, but they are not guaranteed to exist as most users do not
allocate one to a filesystem. Therefore, it wouldn't be very clever for
update-grub to rely on them to produce grub.cfg. Some filesystems do not
have a UUID (iso9660, for example), so --label or --file are the only
options available then.
While I do see the power of Grub 2, I too wish we could go back to the
efficience and simplicity of Grub 1.
Nothing to stop you:
apt-get install grub-legacy
And I don't know if this is Grub or the distribution, but I've regularely
experienced MS-like behaviour: you tell the installer to put Grub on the
root partition, but it does install on your MBR.
grub-install /dev/sda1
didn't do as instructed? Bug number?
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Re: Is grub perfect? (was Re: Does LXDE really require lightdm?)
On Saturday, June 28, 2014 9:20:02 PM UTC+5:30, Brian wrote: On Sat 28 Jun 2014 at 09:00:30 +0200, Thierry de Coulon wrote: On Saturday 28 June 2014 05.55:39 Rusi Mody wrote: PS. No I am not defending grub2 -- I find its documentation almost non-existent -- just my survival strategies :-) Yes, this is one problem. There are others: 20 man pages and an info manual amounts to non-existent documentation? I use the grub command configfile (also multiboot). What do they do? Where are they documented? [I got the tips on usage on the grub mailing list] More generally: $ ls /boot/grub/i386-pc/*.mod|wc -l 213 So there are 213 modules in grub... Who/What/Where/How...??? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/acfc5821-713d-4f5a-bfd5-09f32e146...@googlegroups.com
Re: Is grub perfect? (was Re: Does LXDE really require lightdm?)
On Sat 28 Jun 2014 at 10:09:28 -0700, Rusi Mody wrote: On Saturday, June 28, 2014 9:20:02 PM UTC+5:30, Brian wrote: On Sat 28 Jun 2014 at 09:00:30 +0200, Thierry de Coulon wrote: On Saturday 28 June 2014 05.55:39 Rusi Mody wrote: PS. No I am not defending grub2 -- I find its documentation almost non-existent -- just my survival strategies :-) Yes, this is one problem. There are others: 20 man pages and an info manual amounts to non-existent documentation? I use the grub command configfile (also multiboot). What do they do? Where are they documented? [I got the tips on usage on the grub mailing list] More generally: $ ls /boot/grub/i386-pc/*.mod|wc -l 213 So there are 213 modules in grub... Who/What/Where/How...??? Deficiencies in existing documentation don't match up with a claim of its being almost non-existent. The present documention would be of help to most users for most things, but I suppose your examples above only go to show that grub isn't perfect. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/28062014230510.d4bb04bcf...@desktop.copernicus.demon.co.uk
Re: Is grub perfect? (was Re: Does LXDE really require lightdm?)
On 6/28/14, Brian a...@cityscape.co.uk wrote:
On Fri 27 Jun 2014 at 23:14:26 -0400, slitt wrote:
that's simple: Boot the damn computer with a menu to choose predefined
kernel/initrd/disk combinations, and nothing else. And for gosh sakes,
keep it in one file. If a config option is about pretty, leave that
feature out.
The simplest possible grub.cfg would contain
menuentry DescriptiveMenuItem {
linux (hd0,msdos1)/vmlinuz root=/dev/sda1
initrd (hd0,msdos1)/initrd.gz
}
This assumes a machine with a single disk and the root file system
(essentially where /sbin/init resides) on the first partition of the
same disk.
There we are, a predefined kernel/initrd/disk combination. Four lines in
a single file. Problem solved.
No it's not! will be the cry, update-grub will overwite my grub.cfg.
Correct; so use dpkg-divert on /usr/sbin/update-grub and those nasty,
prettifying files in /etc/default/grub and /etc/grub.d will languish
unused. The problem is now well and truly solved.
That was _awesome_!
Thank you so much Brian!
Zenaan
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Re: Is grub perfect? (was Re: Does LXDE really require lightdm?)
On Sunday, June 29, 2014 4:00:01 AM UTC+5:30, Brian wrote: On Sat 28 Jun 2014 at 10:09:28 -0700, Rusi Mody wrote: On Saturday, June 28, 2014 9:20:02 PM UTC+5:30, Brian wrote: On Sat 28 Jun 2014 at 09:00:30 +0200, Thierry de Coulon wrote: On Saturday 28 June 2014 05.55:39 Rusi Mody wrote: PS. No I am not defending grub2 -- I find its documentation almost non-existent -- just my survival strategies :-) Yes, this is one problem. There are others: 20 man pages and an info manual amounts to non-existent documentation? I use the grub command configfile (also multiboot). What do they do? Where are they documented? [I got the tips on usage on the grub mailing list] More generally: $ ls /boot/grub/i386-pc/*.mod|wc -l 213 So there are 213 modules in grub... Who/What/Where/How...??? Deficiencies in existing documentation don't match up with a claim of its being almost non-existent. The present documention would be of help to most users for most things, but I suppose your examples above only go to show that grub isn't perfect. [For anyone who finds this and has an itch to explore the limbo between non-existent and non-perfect]: There used to be a grub wiki: grub.enbug.org. The link is now dead. It can however still be found in the webarchive: https://web.archive.org/web/20100819173835/http://grub.enbug.org/FrontPage -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/015810ff-0f09-4a46-959c-520801d37...@googlegroups.com
Is grub perfect? (was Re: Does LXDE really require lightdm?)
On Sat, Jun 28, 2014 at 7:48 AM, [...] Grub is a *boot loader*. Lately (last few years), it seems to be trying to do a lot more. What do you expect it to do? Mind read? I'd almost say that's one of the things the devs are trying to make it do. -- Joel Rees Be careful where you see conspiracy. Look first in your own heart. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/caar43im_feyy0eyelpzhgq5j_2g3xsdkxx05bdbc2pkl1b5...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Is grub perfect? (was Re: Does LXDE really require lightdm?)
On Sat, 28 Jun 2014 09:33:57 +0900 Joel Rees joel.r...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Jun 28, 2014 at 7:48 AM, [...] Grub is a *boot loader*. Lately (last few years), it seems to be trying to do a lot more. What do you expect it to do? Mind read? I'd almost say that's one of the things the devs are trying to make it do. I have a feeling that a lot of this thread got procmailed to my /dev/null, but for the person who asked what I wanted it to do, that's simple: Boot the damn computer with a menu to choose predefined kernel/initrd/disk combinations, and nothing else. And for gosh sakes, keep it in one file. If a config option is about pretty, leave that feature out. In other words, grub1. SteveT -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140627231426.0422e...@mydesq2.domain.cxm
Re: Is grub perfect? (was Re: Does LXDE really require lightdm?)
On Saturday, June 28, 2014 8:50:01 AM UTC+5:30, slitt wrote:
On Sat, 28 Jun 2014 09:33:57 +0900
Joel Rees wrote:
On Sat, Jun 28, 2014 at 7:48 AM, [...]
Grub is a *boot loader*.
Lately (last few years), it seems to be trying to do a lot more.
What do you expect it to do? Mind read?
I'd almost say that's one of the things the devs are trying to make
it do.
I have a feeling that a lot of this thread got procmailed to
my /dev/null, but for the person who asked what I wanted it to do,
that's simple: Boot the damn computer with a menu to choose predefined
kernel/initrd/disk combinations, and nothing else. And for gosh sakes,
keep it in one file. If a config option is about pretty, leave that
feature out.
In other words, grub1.
As Brian pointed out nosplash and remove quiet on the kernel line helps.
Brings me to the more general/philosophical point:
Yes grub2 unlike grub1 puts its setup in half-a-dozen files and expects a
'compilation' model: the SHOUTING
# DO NOT EDIT THIS FILE
at the top of grub.cfg and all...
Over time Ive leart to ignore (or take with some pinch of salt) that stricture:
In particular I have a 'real' mbr grub in its own partition whose grub.cfg
I hand-edit with some care (and half-knowledge!)
Then there are the grubs in each of the roots of the each of the linuxes.
These are for the linuxes to manage when upgrades happen
The first (not mounted by default) connects to the second with
entries like so:
[requires labels to be set up. Use UUIDs to taste if desired]
menuentry Debian 64 configfile {
search --set --label Deb64
configfile /boot/grub/grub.cfg
}
menuentry Debian old configfile {
search --set --label DebOld
configfile /boot/grub/grub.cfg
}
menuentry Ubuntu 64bit configfile {
search --set --label Ubuntu64
configfile /boot/grub/grub.cfg
}
PS. No I am not defending grub2 -- I find its documentation almost
non-existent -- just my survival strategies :-)
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