Re: Machine freezes after kernel update

[Miroslav Skoric]

On 10/10/2015 09:33 PM, Piyavkin wrote:



Yeah, but if the issue becomes permanent in all the future versions
starting from 3.2.71-2? It's kind of scary.



Good news: After some time waiting, there came version 3.2.73-2 and I 
tested it both with 686-rt and 486 flavors. Both work good. No problem 
with booting into GUI.


M.S.

Re: Machine freezes after kernel update

[Miroslav Skoric]

On 10/10/2015 09:33 PM, Piyavkin wrote:



Miroslav, by the way, what version of BIOS your laptop has?




Insyde F15

Re: Re: Machine freezes after kernel update

[Piyavkin]

I've reported the bug here:

https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=801467
#801467

Thanks for help.

Best regards,
Dmitry Piyavkin

Re: Machine freezes after kernel update

[Miroslav Skoric]

On 10/09/2015 06:09 PM, Brad Rogers wrote:



If that's true, that's a *serious* bug.  LILO (or Grub, come to that)
should never delete kernels.  I know Grub doesn't but, as I said before,
I've not used LILO for some years.  Even so, I'd be surprised if it could
actually _delete_ kernels like that.  Keeping an old, known to work
kernel is the sensible thing to do.



Well, what I gonna do is to test LILO behaviour with some other two 
machines, a newer one having 3.2.0-4-rt-686-pae kernel only, and the 
other one running 3.2.0-4-486 only. (But before that, I'll wait for a 
while to skip the last problematic update.)

Re: Machine freezes after kernel update

[Miroslav Skoric]

On 10/09/2015 05:19 PM, Chris Bannister wrote:



In fact, (and in my case) LILO does delete old kernels during the upgrade,


Wow! I really think that is a bug *if* it does. What makes you think
that is the case?



Ok, let me say it this way: That laptop has 2 different flavours of 
kernel, the first one is rt-686-pae while the other is 486, and the 
first one has a 'regular' "Linux" entry within LILO boot menu, while the 
second one was designated as "LinuxOLD" entry. (Btw, that machine was 
gradually upgraded to wheezy 7.9, and started as squeeze 6.0.1a some 2.5 
years ago, so I forgot the initial kernel setup.) Anyway, for a long 
time now there have been only such two kernel options, so I could choose 
in between them. As long as I remember, during every kernel update both 
kernels were updated in the same time so I could test each one 
instantly. I never had any system freezing since the very beginning of 
squeeze. And by looking into the /boot/ directory, I always saw the 
single newest instance of each flavour. I have never seen any older 
version kept there after the update. (Have I missed to look into some 
other folder?)


One more thing that might be interesting: For some traditional reasons 
(say, rather conservative personality), I haven't tried GRUB on that 
machine. In opposite to that, I have a desktop comp running Ubuntu 
(started with 10.04.x LTS and gradually upgraded to 14.04.x LTS) where I 
initially had GRUB for a while. I remember that very soon GRUB menu 
became filled in with a lot of kernel options, and that it kept a dozen 
or more kernels there, so later I decided to install LILO and remove 
GRUB. Interestingly, that Ubuntu still keeps some 7-8 older kernels 
backwards (until I de-install them - I do it maybe once per year because 
I do have a plenty of disk space there). Btw, /boot/grub/ sub-folder is 
still there for unknown reasons, so it might be that some GRUB 'ghost' 
forces it to keep older stuff :-)

Re: Machine freezes after kernel update

[Miroslav Skoric]

On 10/09/2015 08:45 PM, Piyavkin wrote:



I have exactly the same issue with the same kernel-packages. See here:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2015/10/msg00231.html



Yes, my symptom was identical to what you have described there. 
Interestingly you use GRUB and not LILO, but even your GRUB was also not 
keeping the previous kernel(s) too. Very strange.




And what should we do with future upgrades from now?



Probably, to wait for a while in order to avoid that 'faulty' 3.2.71-2 
iteration of 3.2.0-4 kernels.

Re: Machine freezes after kernel update

[Piyavkin]

On 10.10.2015 22:06, Miroslav Skoric wrote:

On 10/09/2015 08:45 PM, Piyavkin wrote:



I have exactly the same issue with the same kernel-packages. See here:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2015/10/msg00231.html



Yes, my symptom was identical to what you have described there. 
Interestingly you use GRUB and not LILO, but even your GRUB was also 
not keeping the previous kernel(s) too. Very strange.




And, it seems that cleaning out all previous versions of kernel at 
arrival of new ones is another bug. Probably should be reported separately.
I think it's better to have not so aesthetical long list of kernel 
versions in bootloader menu or tweak the menu a bit to show only few 
recent versions than to have been stuck with fully nonfunctional system 
in the situations as the our's one.

Re: Machine freezes after kernel update

[Piyavkin]

On 10.10.2015 22:06, Miroslav Skoric wrote:

On 10/09/2015 08:45 PM, Piyavkin wrote:



I have exactly the same issue with the same kernel-packages. See here:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2015/10/msg00231.html



Yes, my symptom was identical to what you have described there. 
Interestingly you use GRUB and not LILO, but even your GRUB was also 
not keeping the previous kernel(s) too. Very strange.




And what should we do with future upgrades from now?



Probably, to wait for a while in order to avoid that 'faulty' 3.2.71-2 
iteration of 3.2.0-4 kernels.





Yeah, but if the issue becomes permanent in all the future versions 
starting from 3.2.71-2? It's kind of scary.


Miroslav, by the way, what version of BIOS your laptop has?

Re: Machine freezes after kernel update

[Riley Baird]

> Furthermore, as mentioned in my other mail, I used to have 486 and 
> 686-pae kernels, and was used to switch from one to another from time to 
> time, to see the difference. In the past I noticed that 686-pae tend to 
> make mouse cursor moving slowly for a while, then to recover as usual, 
> then maybe run slowly again and again, etc. Is that a known issue with 
> 686-pae versions?

I don't know.

> > Then, to make sure that apt doesn't want to upgrade to the latest kernel
> > version, you can use the command
> >
> > $ apt-mark hold packagename
> >
> 
> Btw, does it give a temporary or permanent block for further kernel 
> upgrades? Thanks.

Permanent. If you want to upgrade, you have to use:

$ apt-mark unhold packagename

Re: Machine freezes after kernel update

[Riley Baird]

On Fri, 09 Oct 2015 21:45:19 +0300
Piyavkin  wrote:

> Hi there,
> 
> I have exactly the same issue with the same kernel-packages. See here:
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2015/10/msg00231.html
> 
> I use Grub. But it hadn't saved old good kernel versions in the exactly 
> same manner
> as Miroslav's LILO does. I have no option «Advanced options for Debian 
> GNU/Linux»
> in bootloader menu either. And I've never tweaked Grub on the computer,
> it's how it works out of the box of standard Debian 7 installation.
> 
> So, I probably should restore previous version of kernel from .deb, as 
> described here
> (thanks!).
> 
> Though, the question is: what exactly caused the problem? Is it some bug 
> in kernel
> beyond my appreciation or something wrong with my PC (old BIOS, falling 
> apart hardware,
> weird settings, etc.), which possible lead to more problems in future? 
> And if it is bug,
> should we report it somehow?
> 
> And what should we do with future upgrades from now?
> 
> Best regards,
> Dmitry Piyavkin

I think that the best thing to do would be to report a bug. In your
report, make sure that you mention everything that you've mentioned
so far, and note that another person on debian-user has reported the
same problem.

To report a bug in Debian, just:
$ apt-get install reportbug
$ reportbug


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Re: Machine freezes after kernel update

[Seeker]

On 10/9/2015 9:09 AM, Brad Rogers wrote:

On Thu, 8 Oct 2015 23:09:36 +0200
Miroslav Skoric  wrote:

Hello Miroslav,


In fact, (and in my case) LILO does delete old kernels during the

If that's true, that's a *serious* bug.  LILO (or Grub, come to that)
should never delete kernels.  I know Grub doesn't but, as I said before,
I've not used LILO for some years.  Even so, I'd be surprised if it could
actually _delete_ kernels like that.  Keeping an old, known to work
kernel is the sensible thing to do.


I have not used LILO for a long time, but it sounds like it works the 
same as it did way

back when.

LILO configured to point at symbolic links instead of directly at the 
kernel. 2 symlinks for
current kernel 'vmlinuz' and 'initrd' and similar for the previous 
kernel. This way instead
of mucking about with reconfiguring and re-writing stuff in MBR the 
symbolic links just

need to be updated each time.

If a newly installed kernel doesn't work, you should be able to boot the 
previous kernel.
If you then uninstall the package for the kernel that had problems, you 
may have to check
the symlinks to make sure they point to valid stuff and didn't get left 
dangling.


Later, Seeker

Re: Machine freezes after kernel update

[Brad Rogers]

On Thu, 8 Oct 2015 23:09:36 +0200
Miroslav Skoric  wrote:

Hello Miroslav,

>In fact, (and in my case) LILO does delete old kernels during the 

If that's true, that's a *serious* bug.  LILO (or Grub, come to that)
should never delete kernels.  I know Grub doesn't but, as I said before,
I've not used LILO for some years.  Even so, I'd be surprised if it could
actually _delete_ kernels like that.  Keeping an old, known to work
kernel is the sensible thing to do.

Even if it's not LILO, but apt, aptitude or synaptic that is deleting
the previous kernel, without your _specifically_ telling it to do so
again, a bug.

I will admit that, under certain circumstances, old kernels can be
marked as suitable for auto-removal, but by that time, there's still at
least two kernels left to work with.

-- 
 Regards  _
 / )   "The blindingly obvious is
/ _)radnever immediately apparent"
If Adolf Hitler flew in today, they'd send a limousine anyway
(White Man) In Hammersmith Palais - The Clash


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Re: Re: Machine freezes after kernel update

[Piyavkin]

Hi there,

I have exactly the same issue with the same kernel-packages. See here:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2015/10/msg00231.html

I use Grub. But it hadn't saved old good kernel versions in the exactly 
same manner
as Miroslav's LILO does. I have no option «Advanced options for Debian 
GNU/Linux»

in bootloader menu either. And I've never tweaked Grub on the computer,
it's how it works out of the box of standard Debian 7 installation.

So, I probably should restore previous version of kernel from .deb, as 
described here

(thanks!).

Though, the question is: what exactly caused the problem? Is it some bug 
in kernel
beyond my appreciation or something wrong with my PC (old BIOS, falling 
apart hardware,
weird settings, etc.), which possible lead to more problems in future? 
And if it is bug,

should we report it somehow?

And what should we do with future upgrades from now?

Best regards,
Dmitry Piyavkin

Re: Machine freezes after kernel update

[Chris Bannister]

On Thu, Oct 08, 2015 at 11:09:36PM +0200, Miroslav Skoric wrote:
> On 10/08/2015 12:37 AM, Brad Rogers wrote:
> 
> >>Thanks. Well I do not have GRUB here but LILO, and there are no saved
> >>old kernels as long as I know.
> >
> >There should be;  Debian doesn't delete old kernels as part of the
> >upgrade process.  Even LILO should have an option to boot older
> >kernels.  Older kernels are deliberately kept such that, if the new
> >kernel *does* fail, you can still, hopefully, use a previous one.  It's
> >been a long time since I used LILO, so can't advise how to access those
> >old kernels.
> >
> 
> In fact, (and in my case) LILO does delete old kernels during the upgrade,

Wow! I really think that is a bug *if* it does. What makes you think
that is the case?

-- 
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing." --- Malcolm X

Re: Machine freezes after kernel update

[Brad Rogers]

On Wed, 7 Oct 2015 23:23:54 +0200
Miroslav Skoric  wrote:

Hello Miroslav,

>Thanks. Well I do not have GRUB here but LILO, and there are no saved 
>old kernels as long as I know.

There should be;  Debian doesn't delete old kernels as part of the
upgrade process.  Even LILO should have an option to boot older
kernels.  Older kernels are deliberately kept such that, if the new
kernel *does* fail, you can still, hopefully, use a previous one.  It's
been a long time since I used LILO, so can't advise how to access those
old kernels.

>archived in /var/cache/apt/archives as .deb packages. For example,

Those are an artefact of the install process;  You appear not to be
deleting packages once installed successfully.  Nothing wrong with
that, but you can end up short on disk space that way.  This lack of
space can lead to booting issues. 

-- 
 Regards  _
 / )   "The blindingly obvious is
/ _)radnever immediately apparent"
White people going to school, where they teach you to be thick
White Riot - The Clash


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Re: Machine freezes after kernel update

[Riley Baird]

On Wed, 7 Oct 2015 23:23:54 +0200
Miroslav Skoric  wrote:

> On 10/07/2015 08:56 AM, Riley Baird wrote:
> 
> >> After the last kernel update and restart, a wheezy-based machine (laptop
> >> running 7.9) boots to some point, however it freezes just before opening
> >> GUI. Access to CLI (Ctrl-Alt-F1 etc) is also not possible. What to do to
> >> recover?
> >
> > Debian saves your old kernels upon an upgrade. In the GRUB bootloader
> > menu, select "Advanced options for Debian GNU/Linux". Then, select
> > the kernel version that you want. If this works, the problem is with
> > the new kernel. If it doesn't, it is probably something to do with the
> > GUI. Try doing this and let us know what happens.
> >
> 
> Thanks. Well I do not have GRUB here but LILO, and there are no saved 
> old kernels as long as I know. However, I managed to access the file 
> system by using rescue CD, and noticed that the older kernel images were 
> archived in /var/cache/apt/archives as .deb packages. For example, there 
> are few 3.2.68-1+deb7u4 images & headers (that worked perfectly), 
> however apt-get install still wants to use "newest" version 3.2.71-2 
> (that produced the problem). Is it possible to force it to install the 
> older version from the .deb files? Or, how to install from .deb files in 
> rescue CLI?

If dpkg is available during the rescue CLI, you can install the .deb file
using the command

$ dpkg -i /path/to/packagename.deb

Then, to make sure that apt doesn't want to upgrade to the latest kernel
version, you can use the command

$ apt-mark hold packagename


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Re: Machine freezes after kernel update

[Miroslav Skoric]

On 10/08/2015 10:58 AM, Riley Baird wrote:


rescue CLI?


If dpkg is available during the rescue CLI, you can install the .deb file
using the command

$ dpkg -i /path/to/packagename.deb



Riley, that was the solution I looked for and dpkg did the job. I 
reinstalled the previous kernel and removed the failed one. So the 
system does not freeze any more. Thanks!


Furthermore, as mentioned in my other mail, I used to have 486 and 
686-pae kernels, and was used to switch from one to another from time to 
time, to see the difference. In the past I noticed that 686-pae tend to 
make mouse cursor moving slowly for a while, then to recover as usual, 
then maybe run slowly again and again, etc. Is that a known issue with 
686-pae versions?



Then, to make sure that apt doesn't want to upgrade to the latest kernel
version, you can use the command

$ apt-mark hold packagename



Btw, does it give a temporary or permanent block for further kernel 
upgrades? Thanks.

Re: Machine freezes after kernel update

[Miroslav Skoric]

On 10/08/2015 12:37 AM, Brad Rogers wrote:


Thanks. Well I do not have GRUB here but LILO, and there are no saved
old kernels as long as I know.


There should be;  Debian doesn't delete old kernels as part of the
upgrade process.  Even LILO should have an option to boot older
kernels.  Older kernels are deliberately kept such that, if the new
kernel *does* fail, you can still, hopefully, use a previous one.  It's
been a long time since I used LILO, so can't advise how to access those
old kernels.



In fact, (and in my case) LILO does delete old kernels during the 
upgrade, however I always had two opportunities for booting the system 
(one kernel of 486 category a.k.a. "older machines", the other of 
686-pae type for "modern machines"). During all kernel upgrades up to 
now (since squeeze 6.0.1a to wheezy 7.9) both kernels had been replaced 
by newer versions at the same time, and I was always able to restart the 
system without issues. This was the first time that both kernel variants 
failed to boot.



archived in /var/cache/apt/archives as .deb packages. For example,


Those are an artefact of the install process;  You appear not to be
deleting packages once installed successfully.  Nothing wrong with
that, but you can end up short on disk space that way.  This lack of
space can lead to booting issues.



Well, there were just few .deb packages of the last known kernels there 
- so not much space was occupied. And I had luck with them because I 
used them to reinstall the previous (good) kernel images without 
downloading them again :-)  So it seems that keeping those packages in 
cache for a while was actually useful. Thanks anyway.

Re: Machine freezes after kernel update

[Miroslav Skoric]

On 10/07/2015 08:56 AM, Riley Baird wrote:


After the last kernel update and restart, a wheezy-based machine (laptop
running 7.9) boots to some point, however it freezes just before opening
GUI. Access to CLI (Ctrl-Alt-F1 etc) is also not possible. What to do to
recover?


Debian saves your old kernels upon an upgrade. In the GRUB bootloader
menu, select "Advanced options for Debian GNU/Linux". Then, select
the kernel version that you want. If this works, the problem is with
the new kernel. If it doesn't, it is probably something to do with the
GUI. Try doing this and let us know what happens.



Thanks. Well I do not have GRUB here but LILO, and there are no saved 
old kernels as long as I know. However, I managed to access the file 
system by using rescue CD, and noticed that the older kernel images were 
archived in /var/cache/apt/archives as .deb packages. For example, there 
are few 3.2.68-1+deb7u4 images & headers (that worked perfectly), 
however apt-get install still wants to use "newest" version 3.2.71-2 
(that produced the problem). Is it possible to force it to install the 
older version from the .deb files? Or, how to install from .deb files in 
rescue CLI?

Re: Machine freezes after kernel update

[Riley Baird]

On Wed, 07 Oct 2015 06:44:37 +0200
Miroslav Skoric  wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> After the last kernel update and restart, a wheezy-based machine (laptop 
> running 7.9) boots to some point, however it freezes just before opening 
> GUI. Access to CLI (Ctrl-Alt-F1 etc) is also not possible. What to do to 
> recover?

Debian saves your old kernels upon an upgrade. In the GRUB bootloader
menu, select "Advanced options for Debian GNU/Linux". Then, select
the kernel version that you want. If this works, the problem is with
the new kernel. If it doesn't, it is probably something to do with the
GUI. Try doing this and let us know what happens.


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Machine freezes after kernel update

[Miroslav Skoric]

Hi,

After the last kernel update and restart, a wheezy-based machine (laptop 
running 7.9) boots to some point, however it freezes just before opening 
GUI. Access to CLI (Ctrl-Alt-F1 etc) is also not possible. What to do to 
recover?


Regards,

M.