OT: The following packages will be REMOVED:
On Wed, 2012-11-14 at 10:48 +0100, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: PS: yes, I install debian regularly... Because I love to play with highly critical files like init scripts or boot loaders. This is my way to understand how things works: tinker to learn , and if you break things, try to repair :D My Arch is broken, since I can't play anymore with Arch's initscripts ;) and IMO repairing, the transition, is to time consuming and for some needs still impossible. Soon or later Debian will drop init too, but there for sure won't be a transition within testing or experimental, I guess when testing becomes stable, a new experimental will switch to systemd, upstart or what ever. A transition like switching away from init is different to a broken X package, since it's not just switching the init daemon, it will effect especially your desktop environments, since the kit family will be dropped, udev won't be available without installing systemd and perhaps some etc.. Making a new install IMO is the easiest solution when radical transitions will make a regular upgrade impossible. Regarding to the topic, multilib vs non-free on Debian, I'm not aware how radical this transition is. I guess the averaged Ubuntu user isn't aware that Ubuntu switched from init to upstart, the averaged Arch user is aware of the switch from initscripts to systemd. I wonder if it was possible to Upgrade from Ubuntu old school to Ubuntu upstart? I think so, because Ubuntu e.g. still maintains policykit, udev. Arch doesn't! Debian for sure will switch to systemd too, follow upstream and also drop the kit family and add udev to the systemd package?! Debian once switched from GNOME 2 to GNOME 3 for testing and this was a serious issue for me. I didn't notice some changes. I used Debian, because I wasn't forced to install pulseaudio, known as completely borked, because it simply couldn't handle professional audio cards, however, I didn't notice that among other crap, GNOME 3 installed pulseaudio and make my Debian unusable for my needs. OTOH I couldn't stay with stable, because I needed to compile audio stuff, even for testing I needed to compile the version of ALSA, that was the current stable release from ALSA. For my needs the most usable default installs are from distros where I have to remove less to get a running audio workstation, OTOH I prefer only to install what I need, instead of removing packages. What ever people prefer, a real rolling release, Debian stable or testing ... it's always a good idea to backup, before upgrading and to expect that important things will be completely borked after upgrading. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1352889907.2103.112.camel@precise
Re: OT: The following packages will be REMOVED:
On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 5:45 AM, Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: I guess the averaged Ubuntu user isn't aware that Ubuntu switched from init to upstart, the averaged Arch user is aware of the switch from initscripts to systemd. I wonder if it was possible to Upgrade from Ubuntu old school to Ubuntu upstart? I think so, because Ubuntu e.g. still maintains policykit, udev. Arch doesn't! You must mean consolekit not policykit. You're underestimating Ubuntu users. For example, NetworkManager's startup has been migrated to upstart so [initctl] restart network-manager and service network-manager restart work and invoke-rc.d network-manager restart and /etc/init.d/network-manager don't work. So, at the very least, anyone using Ubuntu who's had to restart a service that's been migrated to upstart knows that something's changed. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAOdo=Sz8fvnVg38oswv3FP1=1y3ubmw9owqdf8m40dujytn...@mail.gmail.com
Re: OT: The following packages will be REMOVED:
On Wed, 2012-11-14 at 13:30 -0500, Tom H wrote: On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 5:45 AM, Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: I guess the averaged Ubuntu user isn't aware that Ubuntu switched from init to upstart, the averaged Arch user is aware of the switch from initscripts to systemd. I wonder if it was possible to Upgrade from Ubuntu old school to Ubuntu upstart? I think so, because Ubuntu e.g. still maintains policykit, udev. Arch doesn't! You must mean consolekit not policykit. You're underestimating Ubuntu users. For example, NetworkManager's startup has been migrated to upstart so [initctl] restart network-manager and service network-manager restart work and invoke-rc.d network-manager restart and /etc/init.d/network-manager don't work. So, at the very least, anyone using Ubuntu who's had to restart a service that's been migrated to upstart knows that something's changed. No, I'm talking about the kit family and especially about PolicyKit https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/PolicyKit . And if for Debian udev, PolicyKit etc. still should be available as an independent package, then because Debian maintainers extract it from systemd, In April 2012, udev's source tree was merged into systemd - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udev There are still howtos for Ubuntu, that refer to /etc/init.d/foo start| stop|status instead of service. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1352918508.5109.14.camel@precise
Re: OT: The following packages will be REMOVED:
On Wed, 2012-11-14 at 13:30 -0500, Tom H wrote: On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 5:45 AM, Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: I guess the averaged Ubuntu user isn't aware that Ubuntu switched from init to upstart, the averaged Arch user is aware of the switch from initscripts to systemd. I wonder if it was possible to Upgrade from Ubuntu old school to Ubuntu upstart? I think so, because Ubuntu e.g. still maintains policykit, udev. Arch doesn't! You must mean consolekit not policykit. You're underestimating Ubuntu users. For example, NetworkManager's startup has been migrated to upstart so [initctl] restart network-manager and service network-manager restart work and invoke-rc.d network-manager restart and /etc/init.d/network-manager don't work. So, at the very least, anyone using Ubuntu who's had to restart a service that's been migrated to upstart knows that something's changed. No, I'm talking about the kit family and especially about PolicyKit https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/PolicyKit . And if for Debian udev still should be available as an independent package, then because Debian maintainers extract it from systemd, In April 2012, udev's source tree was merged into systemd - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udev There are still howtos for Ubuntu, that refer to /etc/init.d/foo start| stop|status instead of service. Regards, Ralf -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1352918494.5109.13.camel@precise
Re: OT: The following packages will be REMOVED:
On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 1:41 PM, Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: On Wed, 2012-11-14 at 13:30 -0500, Tom H wrote: On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 5:45 AM, Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: I guess the averaged Ubuntu user isn't aware that Ubuntu switched from init to upstart, the averaged Arch user is aware of the switch from initscripts to systemd. I wonder if it was possible to Upgrade from Ubuntu old school to Ubuntu upstart? I think so, because Ubuntu e.g. still maintains policykit, udev. Arch doesn't! You must mean consolekit not policykit. You're underestimating Ubuntu users. For example, NetworkManager's startup has been migrated to upstart so [initctl] restart network-manager and service network-manager restart work and invoke-rc.d network-manager restart and /etc/init.d/network-manager don't work. So, at the very least, anyone using Ubuntu who's had to restart a service that's been migrated to upstart knows that something's changed. No, I'm talking about the kit family and especially about PolicyKit https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/PolicyKit . And if for Debian udev, PolicyKit etc. still should be available as an independent package, then because Debian maintainers extract it from systemd, In April 2012, udev's source tree was merged into systemd - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udev Please don't confise the *kits; policykit's independent of systemd whereas consolekit has been deprecated by systemd-logind (and I assume that distributions that aren't defaulting to systemd are continuing to work on it; hopefully jointly). Systemd hasn't gobbled up policykit yet, but hope springs eternal! :) The big recent change in policykit is the move to javascript rules rather than xml or ini-style ones. There are still howtos for Ubuntu, that refer to /etc/init.d/foo start| stop|status instead of service. Whether it's clear in those howtos or not, they apply to daemons that haven't been migrated to upstart, two that come to mind immediately are apache2 and nginx. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAOdo=SwtiT-KxhMzf4tgq_p052SmubGt988u6zgz3=vbuhw...@mail.gmail.com
Re: OT: The following packages will be REMOVED:
Ralf Mardorf (ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net on 2012-11-14 19:41 +0100): On Wed, 2012-11-14 at 13:30 -0500, Tom H wrote: And if for Debian udev still should be available as an independent package, then because Debian maintainers extract it from systemd, In April 2012, udev's source tree was merged into systemd - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Udev Actually, it's because Wheezy's udev version (175) is from before the systemd merge. Regards, Arno -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20121114230751.44f47...@murid.intra.loos.site
