Re: OpenSolaris Boot Environements equivalent

[Yassine Chaouche]

Le 1/24/23 à 3:20 PM, Mario Marietto a écrit :

Yassine,if you think that you will not love FreeBSD only because you have seen 
your friend put his handsin his hair,you areinterpreting the situation too 
severely. FreeBSD is a good OS,easier than Linux andwhich doesn't have all the 
unnecessarysuperstructurethat Linux has, but offers almost all of the same 
features. And where it doesn't offer them, you can use bhyve to virtualize 
linux at all, even in the pass thru of the nvidia / amd gpus.


I see.
But my experience has been otherwise.
In another company I worked for,
I saw pfSense constantly reboot the machine in an infinite loop after a buggy 
update.
It was installed on a device that was acting as a gateway for some 500+ 
corporate computers.
Fortunately, there was a second instance running to avoid service downtime in 
these types of scenarii.

On the other side,
I hear compliments about the different BSDs and unices out there,
especially the much acclaimed Sun's contributions in that regard
(ZFS, DTrace, SMF...).

I just didn't have much opportunities to work on those platforms,
but if that opportunity comes,
I'd love to give them a try,
if time allows.

Best,

--
yassine -- sysadm
+213-779 06 06 23
http://about.me/ychaouche
Looking for side gigs.

Re: OpenSolaris Boot Environements equivalent

[Mario Marietto]

Yassine,if you think that you will not love FreeBSD only because you have
seen your friend put his hands in his hair,you are interpreting the
situation too severely. FreeBSD is a good OS,easier than Linux and which
doesn't have all the unnecessary superstructure that Linux has, but offers
almost all of the same features. And where it doesn't offer them, you can
use bhyve to virtualize linux at all, even in the pass thru of the nvidia /
amd gpus.



Il giorno mar 24 gen 2023 alle ore 15:06 Yassine Chaouche <
a.chaou...@algerian-radio.dz> ha scritto:

> For the time being,
> here are the proposed solutions :
>
> 1. opensuse's snapper
> 2. Guix
> 3. nixos
> 4. Amanda
> 5. Ubuntu with ZoL (ZFS on Linux)
> 6. ZFS boot menu
>
>
> Mario, Anssi, Christoph, David, DdB, Gene, Jeffrey:
> Thank you all for your providing feedback!
>
> Best,
>
> --
> yassine -- sysadm
> +213-779 06 06 23
> http://about.me/ychaouche
> Looking for side gigs.
>
>

-- 
Mario.

Re: OpenSolaris Boot Environements equivalent

[Yassine Chaouche]

For the time being,
here are the proposed solutions :

1. opensuse's snapper
2. Guix
3. nixos
4. Amanda
5. Ubuntu with ZoL (ZFS on Linux)
6. ZFS boot menu


Mario, Anssi, Christoph, David, DdB, Gene, Jeffrey:
Thank you all for your providing feedback!

Best,

--
yassine -- sysadm
+213-779 06 06 23
http://about.me/ychaouche
Looking for side gigs.

Re: OpenSolaris Boot Environements equivalent

[David]

On Tue, 2023-01-24 at 11:52 +0100, Yassine Chaouche wrote:
> Le 1/19/23 à 7:50 PM, Mario Marietto a écrit :
> [...] Do you know if the boot environments of FreeBSD include a
> graphical boot menu ? Because this is the added value that I'm
> looking for. I would like to skip and save some time by avoiding some
> command line tasks.

https://www.rodsbooks.com/refind/

> I have no idea on that topic,
> as I'm not,
> and never been a daemon myself.
> Always been a pinguin.
> 
> I tried a BSD once,
> at work,
> I asked the guy how to install a package,
> he told me you just have to do this,
> so I did that,
> and I bork the machine in under 15 minutes.
> 
> The guy was trying to fix it,
> but then I saw him hold his head in his hands.
> 
> Never touched it again
> 
> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
> 
> Best,

Re: OpenSolaris Boot Environements equivalent

[Yassine Chaouche]

Le 1/19/23 à 7:50 PM, Mario Marietto a écrit :
[...] Do you know if the boot environments of FreeBSD include a graphical boot 
menu ? Because this is the added value that I'm looking for. I would like to 
skip and save some time by avoiding some command line tasks.

I have no idea on that topic,
as I'm not,
and never been a daemon myself.
Always been a pinguin.

I tried a BSD once,
at work,
I asked the guy how to install a package,
he told me you just have to do this,
so I did that,
and I bork the machine in under 15 minutes.

The guy was trying to fix it,
but then I saw him hold his head in his hands.

Never touched it again

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Best,
--
yassine -- sysadm
+213-779 06 06 23
http://about.me/ychaouche
Looking for side gigs.

Re: OpenSolaris Boot Environements equivalent

[Christoph Brinkhaus]

Am Fri, Jan 20, 2023 at 02:16:57PM +0100 schrieb Mario Marietto:

Hi Mario,

> I still do not understand why,when I remove files on a ZFS disk using
> commands like (rm and rm -r),the left space does not increase,but it
> decreases. I would like to know what I can do to free some space if
> removing files does not work. 

If you have snapshots in a data set and rm files they still can be
accessed in the hidden .zfs directories. Therefore the free space
should remain almost the same until you delete the snapshos.

> And I don't understand why a ZFS disk goes
> fast out of space. This does not happen with an UFS disk. 

I have not observed that on my systems, but I have not stressed them a
lot.

> From what I've
> understood every snapshot created with the ZFS mechanisms contains a full
> FreeBSD system. Am I right ? Do you confirm this ? If this is true,ZFS is
> too much space consuming and it will explain why the space will end very
> fast on the disk. That's not good for sure. 

A snapshot contains the references to files. Beside of management
overhead a snapshot does not consume any space. If you modify or
delete files on the data set where the snapshot has been taken off
the original files at the time of the snapshot claim their required
space in the snapshots hidden directory instead of the original data
set.

> Recently I've found a Linux
> distro called "NixOS" which uses another method to create snapshots. It is
> based on a large use of sim/soft and hard links to backup different
> versions of the system libraries. This method is useful when the system is
> upgraded. I would like to ask you if you would like to see this kind of
> solution also on FreeBSD. I really want to see the zfs boot menu suggested
> by Anssi on FreeBSD ! I like it very much ! Do you think it is hard to
> implement it there ?

That sounds a little bit like the software "time machine".

Kind regards,
Christoph
-- 
Ist die Katze gesund
schmeckt sie dem Hund.

Re: OpenSolaris Boot Environements equivalent

[Mario Marietto]

I still do not understand why,when I remove files on a ZFS disk using
commands like (rm and rm -r),the left space does not increase,but it
decreases. I would like to know what I can do to free some space if
removing files does not work. And I don't understand why a ZFS disk goes
fast out of space. This does not happen with an UFS disk. From what I've
understood every snapshot created with the ZFS mechanisms contains a full
FreeBSD system. Am I right ? Do you confirm this ? If this is true,ZFS is
too much space consuming and it will explain why the space will end very
fast on the disk. That's not good for sure. Recently I've found a Linux
distro called "NixOS" which uses another method to create snapshots. It is
based on a large use of sim/soft and hard links to backup different
versions of the system libraries. This method is useful when the system is
upgraded. I would like to ask you if you would like to see this kind of
solution also on FreeBSD. I really want to see the zfs boot menu suggested
by Anssi on FreeBSD ! I like it very much ! Do you think it is hard to
implement it there ?

Il giorno ven 20 gen 2023 alle ore 14:03 Anssi Saari  ha scritto:

> Yassine Chaouche  writes:
>
> > Hello all,
> >
> > I was wondering if there was anyone working on an equivalent of
> OpenSolaris BE?
>
> A quick search came up with https://docs.zfsbootmenu.org/, does that fit
> your needs?
>
>

-- 
Mario.

Re: OpenSolaris Boot Environements equivalent

[Anssi Saari]

Yassine Chaouche  writes:

> Hello all,
>
> I was wondering if there was anyone working on an equivalent of OpenSolaris 
> BE?

A quick search came up with https://docs.zfsbootmenu.org/, does that fit
your needs?

Re: OpenSolaris Boot Environements equivalent

[Mario Marietto]

I've tried Open Indiana for some time,but I stopped using it when a
developer told me :

"Using our build machinery brings another level of burden and you'll need
to learn a lot of new things additionally but when using it you can
participate in the project. If we don't find enough volunteers the project
will end sooner or later. At the moment there are very few people working
regularly on updates or fixes. We have many areas where nobody despite me
is doing anything. Multimedia support is one example"

so,no reason for me to be involved in unnecessarily complicated
tasks.FreeBSD is the right choice for me. It is not complicated and it is
tricky enough to be enjoyed. I say this to say also that if I want to learn
how the boot environment works,I will learn it from the FreeBSD world,not
the open indiana world. Anyway, thanks for the suggestion. Do you know if
the boot environments of FreeBSD include a graphical boot menu ? Because
this is the added value that I'm looking for. I would like to skip and save
some time by avoiding some command line tasks.


Il giorno gio 19 gen 2023 alle ore 18:05 Yassine Chaouche <
a.chaou...@algerian-radio.dz> ha scritto:

> Le 1/19/23 à 3:41 PM, Mario Marietto a écrit :
> > The question asked by Yassine is interesting for me. I've been a FreeBSD
> user for some years. After having used Linux for 20 years, I took the
> decision to stop using it a little bit because of some technical
> reasons,mainly tied to the package management. Now that I'm using FreeBSD,I
> don't regret that choice,because the package management of FreeBSD rocks.
> That of some Linux distributions is unnecessarily complicated and
> problematic because of the problem of the unresolved dependencies. The
> question of Yassine is intriguing me a lot,even because I've used nixos for
> some time and I was impressed by that system management and I would ask to
> the freebsd forum if is possible,in some way,to create a menu,like the grub
> one,where the user can choose,before that FreeBSD start booting,which zfs
> snapshot they want to use.
>
> Mario,
>
> I have been introduced to Boot Environments when I was exploring
> openindiana about a year and a half ago.
> It's one of the forks of Solaris based on OpenSolaris (and the illumos
> kernel).
>
> You might find this discussion interesting as it mentions how all of that
> is done automatically in that OS:
>
> https://www.mail-archive.com/openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org/msg25345.html
>
> Best,
> --
> yassine -- sysadm
> +213-779 06 06 23
> http://about.me/ychaouche
> Looking for side gigs.
>
>

-- 
Mario.

Re: OpenSolaris Boot Environements equivalent

[Yassine Chaouche]

Le 1/19/23 à 3:41 PM, Mario Marietto a écrit :

The question asked by Yassine is interesting for me. I've been a FreeBSD user 
for some years. After having used Linux for 20 years, I took the decision to 
stop using it a little bit because of some technical reasons,mainly tied to the 
package management. Now that I'm using FreeBSD,I don't regret that 
choice,because the package management of FreeBSD rocks. That of some Linux 
distributions is unnecessarily complicated and problematic because of the 
problem of the unresolved dependencies. The question of Yassine is intriguing 
me a lot,even because I've used nixos for some time and I was impressed by that 
system management and I would ask to the freebsd forum if is possible,in some 
way,to create a menu,like the grub one,where the user can choose,before that 
FreeBSD start booting,which zfs snapshot they want to use.


Mario,

I have been introduced to Boot Environments when I was exploring openindiana 
about a year and a half ago.
It's one of the forks of Solaris based on OpenSolaris (and the illumos kernel).

You might find this discussion interesting as it mentions how all of that is 
done automatically in that OS:
https://www.mail-archive.com/openindiana-discuss@openindiana.org/msg25345.html

Best,
--
yassine -- sysadm
+213-779 06 06 23
http://about.me/ychaouche
Looking for side gigs.

Re: OpenSolaris Boot Environements equivalent

[Mario Marietto]

The question asked by Yassine is interesting for me. I've been a FreeBSD
user for some years. After having used Linux for 20 years, I took the
decision to stop using it a little bit because of some technical
reasons,mainly tied to the package management. Now that I'm using FreeBSD,I
don't regret that choice,because the package management of FreeBSD rocks.
That of some Linux distributions is unnecessarily complicated and
problematic because of the problem of the unresolved dependencies. The
question of Yassine is intriguing me a lot,even because I've used nixos for
some time and I was impressed by that system management and I would ask to
the freebsd forum if is possible,in some way,to create a menu,like the grub
one,where the user can choose,before that FreeBSD start booting,which zfs
snapshot they want to use.



Il giorno gio 19 gen 2023 alle ore 12:28 Yassine Chaouche <
a.chaou...@algerian-radio.dz> ha scritto:

> Hello all,
>
> I was wondering if there was anyone working on an equivalent of
> OpenSolaris BE?
> Basically,
> It automatically creates ZFS snapshots of the whole system each time you
> do a system upgrade.
> Next time you boot,
> you'll have the choice of running the new system
> or the old one.
> Pretty handy to roll back in case anything goes wrong during the system
> update.
>
> If nothing like it is avaiable for linux,
> what would be the necessary steps to achieve something similar?
> (even manually)
>
> Best,
>
> --
> yassine -- sysadm
> GSM/Viber: +213-779 06 06 23
> http://about.me/ychaouche
> Looking for side gigs.
>
>

-- 
Mario.

Re: OpenSolaris Boot Environements equivalent

[DdB]

Am 19.01.2023 um 12:18 schrieb Yassine Chaouche:

> If nothing like it is avaiable for linux,
> what would be the necessary steps to achieve something similar?
> (even manually)
> 
Sorry for being late (i missed the post):
The ZoL gurus did work with the ubuntu team in order to provide all this
with their zfs on root install. (using lua to generate the grub scripts
from the snapshots) and some extension for ubuntu to keep the boot
requirements intact.

I myself did abandon ubuntu way before that, but i had a look and it
seems to work quite well. Only i am not returning to their derivative
just for this benefit. Maybe you want to take a look at it for yourself?

DdB

Re: OpenSolaris Boot Environements equivalent

[Christoph Brinkhaus]

Am Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 12:18:53PM +0100 schrieb Yassine Chaouche:

Hello Yassine,

> Hello all,
> 
> I was wondering if there was anyone working on an equivalent of OpenSolaris 
> BE?
> Basically,
> It automatically creates ZFS snapshots of the whole system each time you do a 
> system upgrade.
> Next time you boot,
> you'll have the choice of running the new system
> or the old one.
> Pretty handy to roll back in case anything goes wrong during the system 
> update.

That sounds that you are familiar with FreeBSD.
I am not familiar with ZFS on Linux but more or less to ZFS on
FreeBSD.
> 
> If nothing like it is avaiable for linux,
> what would be the necessary steps to achieve something similar?
> (even manually)

Searching for Vermadens docs about boot environments I have stumped
over the link below.
https://ramsdenj.com/2020/03/18/zectl-zfs-boot-environment-manager-for-linux.html
I am not sure if this is useful for production.
But it is at least a pointer.

Kind regards,
Christoph
-- 
Ist die Katze gesund
schmeckt sie dem Hund.

Re: OpenSolaris Boot Environements equivalent

[gene heskett]

On 1/19/23 06:28, Yassine Chaouche wrote:

Hello all,

I was wondering if there was anyone working on an equivalent of 
OpenSolaris BE?

Basically,
It automatically creates ZFS snapshots of the whole system each time you 
do a system upgrade.

Next time you boot,
you'll have the choice of running the new system
or the old one.
Pretty handy to roll back in case anything goes wrong during the system 
update.


If nothing like it is avaiable for linux,
what would be the necessary steps to achieve something similar?
(even manually)

Best,

Amanda. The learning curve is steep, needs lots of disk storage to run 
best, and is fully automatic once configured to your system.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: OpenSolaris Boot Environements equivalent

[debian-user]

> Hello all,
> 
> I was wondering if there was anyone working on an equivalent of
> OpenSolaris BE? Basically,
> It automatically creates ZFS snapshots of the whole system each time
> you do a system upgrade. Next time you boot,
> you'll have the choice of running the new system
> or the old one.
> Pretty handy to roll back in case anything goes wrong during the
> system update.
> 
> If nothing like it is avaiable for linux,
> what would be the necessary steps to achieve something similar?
> (even manually)

openSUSE does this by default using a btrfs file system and its snapper
utility.

Re: OpenSolaris Boot Environements equivalent

[Mario Marietto]

Hello Yassine,

I think you want nixos.org.

Il giorno gio 19 gen 2023 alle ore 12:28 Yassine Chaouche <
a.chaou...@algerian-radio.dz> ha scritto:

> Hello all,
>
> I was wondering if there was anyone working on an equivalent of
> OpenSolaris BE?
> Basically,
> It automatically creates ZFS snapshots of the whole system each time you
> do a system upgrade.
> Next time you boot,
> you'll have the choice of running the new system
> or the old one.
> Pretty handy to roll back in case anything goes wrong during the system
> update.
>
> If nothing like it is avaiable for linux,
> what would be the necessary steps to achieve something similar?
> (even manually)
>
> Best,
>
> --
> yassine -- sysadm
> GSM/Viber: +213-779 06 06 23
> http://about.me/ychaouche
> Looking for side gigs.
>
>

-- 
Mario.

Re: OpenSolaris Boot Environements equivalent

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 6:28 AM Yassine Chaouche
 wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
> I was wondering if there was anyone working on an equivalent of OpenSolaris 
> BE?
> Basically,
> It automatically creates ZFS snapshots of the whole system each time you do a 
> system upgrade.
> Next time you boot,
> you'll have the choice of running the new system
> or the old one.
> Pretty handy to roll back in case anything goes wrong during the system 
> update.
>
> If nothing like it is avaiable for linux,
> what would be the necessary steps to achieve something similar?
> (even manually)

I _think_ Guix may be doing something similar using a transactional
package management system. I don't follow the project closely, so I
may be wrong.

https://guix.gnu.org/

Jeff

OpenSolaris Boot Environements equivalent

[Yassine Chaouche]

Hello all,

I was wondering if there was anyone working on an equivalent of OpenSolaris BE?
Basically,
It automatically creates ZFS snapshots of the whole system each time you do a 
system upgrade.
Next time you boot,
you'll have the choice of running the new system
or the old one.
Pretty handy to roll back in case anything goes wrong during the system update.

If nothing like it is avaiable for linux,
what would be the necessary steps to achieve something similar?
(even manually)

Best,

--
yassine -- sysadm
GSM/Viber: +213-779 06 06 23
http://about.me/ychaouche
Looking for side gigs.