Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[David Wright]

On Thu 11 Apr 2019 at 20:55:20 (+0200), Nazar Zhuk wrote:
> On 4/10/19 10:10 PM, David Wright wrote:
> > On Thu 11 Apr 2019 at 00:34:04 (+0200), Nazar Zhuk wrote:
> > > On 4/10/19 10:58 AM, David Wright wrote:
> > > > On Sat 06 Apr 2019 at 08:42:31 (+0100), Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> > > > > On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 09:39:23PM -0500, David Wright wrote:
> > > 
> > > > > > Given a straight toss-up though, I think synaptic has to give way 
> > > > > > because
> > > > > > there are plenty of alternatives. I'd never heard of it until a few 
> > > > > > people
> > > > > > started mentioning it here, and I'd never consider using it myself 
> > > > > > on X except
> > > > > > as an ordinary user.
> > > > > 
> > > > > The severity of the bug in synaptic (which is what has caused its 
> > > > > autoremoval)
> > > > > would not be "serious" if the default desktop was not Wayland. So 
> > > > > changing
> > > > > *that*, would mean synaptic could be reintroduced.
> > > > 
> > > > So Debian should have its policy dictated by bugs in an unrelated
> > > > package. Seems an odd strategy.
> > > 
> > > If a change (Wayland default) is introducing issues to a stable (in a
> > > generic sense) system, shouldn't the change be postponed until the
> > > issues are resolved? Perhaps with the help from the change proponents.
> > 
> > I don't think it's an issue that'll be resolved in the direction you
> > intend. It's the enforcement of a security model that has guided most
> > of us for years: not running GUI applications as root.
> 
> In all of history of UNIX and Linux, root means root. You know what
> you are doing and accept the risks. rm -rf /, vim or wget under root
> are dangerous too.

The first of these examples is only dangerous if you type it into
root's commandline. Once you've pressed , it's suicidal.

The others are why I've never run, say, emacs or mc as root. I've
always used nano (from potato, ae until then) and core utilities.

> And Wayland doesn't actually change that, since nothing can, root is
> still root. You can do:
> 
>   xhost +SI:localuser:root
> 
> and run whatever you want as root. This is exactly what the latest
> gparted does [1].
> 
> So this "security model" boils down to an annoyance.
> 
> [1] https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gparted/blob/master/gparted.in#L70

Of course it does. Dealing with security is annoying. People lock
their doors, install alarms, can't cut their food on aeroplanes,
can't drink in sports venues.

On linux, you can cut all that out at a stroke, just use root. That's
what many windows users do, they just run as administrator all the
time. And taking those risks is unacceptable here.

> > The normal way of circumventing this is to have a non-GUI program that
> > performs all the work running as root, with a connection to a GUI
> > client program that runs as the user/administrator.
> 
> Yes, that is the Wayland way. And it's now Wayland way or no way for
> all, not just Wayland users.

That's not the "Wayland way"—it's always been the way. Why? Because it
dramatically cuts the amount of security auditing that needs doing.
If you run graphical toolkits as root, you introduce huge amounts of
vulnerable code into the audit. (Look at gparted's dependencies.)

> > ... for synaptic, it might be written in such a
> > way that you can get the resolver to run with your friendly interface
> > as an ordinary user, and then use apt-get, say, to install the list
> > of packages that synaptic has come up with. ...
> 
> Or just wrap it with a shell script that adds/removes root with xhost
> like gparted does, unless somebody has a compelling desire to
> *implement* (as opposed to force someone else to implement) "Wayland
> way".
> 
> I tested this and it works like a charm.

Of course it does. But cross your fingers and cling to your lucky charm
while you're doing so.

> These are the things that should be considered and resolved when
> making a breaking change (Wayland default).

Yes, they have been considered, and found wanting. That's my point.
That's why lots of people laboured to make X run as a user process,
for example. Sensible people prefer not to move backwards.

Cheers,
David.

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Nazar Zhuk]

On 4/10/19 10:10 PM, David Wright wrote:

On Thu 11 Apr 2019 at 00:34:04 (+0200), Nazar Zhuk wrote:

On 4/10/19 10:58 AM, David Wright wrote:

On Sat 06 Apr 2019 at 08:42:31 (+0100), Jonathan Dowland wrote:

On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 09:39:23PM -0500, David Wright wrote:



Given a straight toss-up though, I think synaptic has to give way because
there are plenty of alternatives. I'd never heard of it until a few people
started mentioning it here, and I'd never consider using it myself on X except
as an ordinary user.


The severity of the bug in synaptic (which is what has caused its autoremoval)
would not be "serious" if the default desktop was not Wayland. So changing
*that*, would mean synaptic could be reintroduced.


So Debian should have its policy dictated by bugs in an unrelated
package. Seems an odd strategy.


If a change (Wayland default) is introducing issues to a stable (in a
generic sense) system, shouldn't the change be postponed until the
issues are resolved? Perhaps with the help from the change proponents.


I don't think it's an issue that'll be resolved in the direction you
intend. It's the enforcement of a security model that has guided most
of us for years: not running GUI applications as root.


In all of history of UNIX and Linux, root means root. You know what you 
are doing and accept the risks. rm -rf /, vim or wget under root are 
dangerous too.


And Wayland doesn't actually change that, since nothing can, root is 
still root. You can do:


  xhost +SI:localuser:root

and run whatever you want as root. This is exactly what the latest 
gparted does [1].


So this "security model" boils down to an annoyance.

[1] https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gparted/blob/master/gparted.in#L70


The normal way of circumventing this is to have a non-GUI program that
performs all the work running as root, with a connection to a GUI
client program that runs as the user/administrator.


Yes, that is the Wayland way. And it's now Wayland way or no way for 
all, not just Wayland users.



... for synaptic, it might be written in such a
way that you can get the resolver to run with your friendly interface
as an ordinary user, and then use apt-get, say, to install the list
of packages that synaptic has come up with. ...


Or just wrap it with a shell script that adds/removes root with xhost 
like gparted does, unless somebody has a compelling desire to 
*implement* (as opposed to force someone else to implement) "Wayland way".


I tested this and it works like a charm.


These are the things that should be considered and resolved when making 
a breaking change (Wayland default).


--
Nazar

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[David Wright]

On Wed 10 Apr 2019 at 19:41:44 (-0400), Lee wrote:
> On 4/10/19, Nazar Zhuk wrote:
> > On 4/10/19 10:58 AM, David Wright wrote:
> >> On Sat 06 Apr 2019 at 08:42:31 (+0100), Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> >>> On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 09:39:23PM -0500, David Wright wrote:
> >
>  Given a straight toss-up though, I think synaptic has to give way
>  because
>  there are plenty of alternatives. I'd never heard of it until a few
>  people
>  started mentioning it here, and I'd never consider using it myself on X
>  except
>  as an ordinary user.
> >>>
> >>> The severity of the bug in synaptic (which is what has caused its
> >>> autoremoval)
> >>> would not be "serious" if the default desktop was not Wayland. So
> >>> changing
> >>> *that*, would mean synaptic could be reintroduced.
> >>
> >> So Debian should have its policy dictated by bugs in an unrelated
> >> package. Seems an odd strategy.
> >
> > If a change (Wayland default) is introducing issues to a stable (in a
> > generic sense) system, shouldn't the change be postponed until the
> > issues are resolved? Perhaps with the help from the change proponents.
> 
> My understanding is that
>   sudo synaptic
> not working for anybody other than root is a desired feature of
> Wayland - not something that would or should be fixed.
> 
> But I'm also under the impression that logging in as root & running
> synaptic works, so removing synaptic altogether still seems a bit
> excessive.

I would be surprised if wayland itself, and whatever it's being
supported by, will allow you to run them as root. That's not the
direction things are moving in, securitywise.

Cheers,
David.

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[David Wright]

On Thu 11 Apr 2019 at 00:34:04 (+0200), Nazar Zhuk wrote:
> On 4/10/19 10:58 AM, David Wright wrote:
> > On Sat 06 Apr 2019 at 08:42:31 (+0100), Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> > > On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 09:39:23PM -0500, David Wright wrote:
> 
> > > > Given a straight toss-up though, I think synaptic has to give way 
> > > > because
> > > > there are plenty of alternatives. I'd never heard of it until a few 
> > > > people
> > > > started mentioning it here, and I'd never consider using it myself on X 
> > > > except
> > > > as an ordinary user.
> > > 
> > > The severity of the bug in synaptic (which is what has caused its 
> > > autoremoval)
> > > would not be "serious" if the default desktop was not Wayland. So changing
> > > *that*, would mean synaptic could be reintroduced.
> > 
> > So Debian should have its policy dictated by bugs in an unrelated
> > package. Seems an odd strategy.
> 
> If a change (Wayland default) is introducing issues to a stable (in a
> generic sense) system, shouldn't the change be postponed until the
> issues are resolved? Perhaps with the help from the change proponents.

I don't think it's an issue that'll be resolved in the direction you
intend. It's the enforcement of a security model that has guided most
of us for years: not running GUI applications as root.

The normal way of circumventing this is to have a non-GUI program that
performs all the work running as root, with a connection to a GUI
client program that runs as the user/administrator.

I'm not in a position to know whether running programs like gparted is
secure enough if the network is disconnected while it is running on,
say, a live system. But for synaptic, it might be written in such a
way that you can get the resolver to run with your friendly interface
as an ordinary user, and then use apt-get, say, to install the list
of packages that synaptic has come up with. Does the latter have a
dry-run option (like -s in apt-get, demonstrated here:)?

$ apt-get -s install synaptic
NOTE: This is only a simulation!
  apt-get needs root privileges for real execution.
  Keep also in mind that locking is deactivated,
  so don't depend on the relevance to the real current situation!
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree   
Reading state information... Done
The following additional packages will be installed:
  docbook-xml libcairo-perl libept1.5.0 libglib-perl libgtk2-perl libpango-perl 
libpcre2-8-0
  librarian0 libvte-2.91-0 libvte-2.91-common rarian-compat sgml-data
Suggested packages:
  docbook docbook-dsssl docbook-xsl docbook-defguide libfont-freetype-perl 
libgtk2-perl-doc
  perlsgml w3-recs opensp libxml2-utils dwww apt-xapian-index 
software-properties-gtk
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  docbook-xml libcairo-perl libept1.5.0 libglib-perl libgtk2-perl libpango-perl 
libpcre2-8-0
  librarian0 libvte-2.91-0 libvte-2.91-common rarian-compat sgml-data synaptic
0 upgraded, 13 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Inst sgml-data (2.0.10 Debian:9.8/stable [all])
[… snipped most of the install and configure lines …]
Conf rarian-compat (0.8.1-6+b1 Debian:9.8/stable [amd64])
$ 

Cheers,
David.

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Lee]

On 4/10/19, Nazar Zhuk wrote:
> On 4/10/19 10:58 AM, David Wright wrote:
>> On Sat 06 Apr 2019 at 08:42:31 (+0100), Jonathan Dowland wrote:
>>> On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 09:39:23PM -0500, David Wright wrote:
>
 Given a straight toss-up though, I think synaptic has to give way
 because
 there are plenty of alternatives. I'd never heard of it until a few
 people
 started mentioning it here, and I'd never consider using it myself on X
 except
 as an ordinary user.
>>>
>>> The severity of the bug in synaptic (which is what has caused its
>>> autoremoval)
>>> would not be "serious" if the default desktop was not Wayland. So
>>> changing
>>> *that*, would mean synaptic could be reintroduced.
>>
>> So Debian should have its policy dictated by bugs in an unrelated
>> package. Seems an odd strategy.
>
> If a change (Wayland default) is introducing issues to a stable (in a
> generic sense) system, shouldn't the change be postponed until the
> issues are resolved? Perhaps with the help from the change proponents.

My understanding is that
  sudo synaptic
not working for anybody other than root is a desired feature of
Wayland - not something that would or should be fixed.

But I'm also under the impression that logging in as root & running
synaptic works, so removing synaptic altogether still seems a bit
excessive.

Lee

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Nazar Zhuk]

On 4/10/19 10:58 AM, David Wright wrote:

On Sat 06 Apr 2019 at 08:42:31 (+0100), Jonathan Dowland wrote:

On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 09:39:23PM -0500, David Wright wrote:



Given a straight toss-up though, I think synaptic has to give way because
there are plenty of alternatives. I'd never heard of it until a few people
started mentioning it here, and I'd never consider using it myself on X except
as an ordinary user.


The severity of the bug in synaptic (which is what has caused its autoremoval)
would not be "serious" if the default desktop was not Wayland. So changing
*that*, would mean synaptic could be reintroduced.


So Debian should have its policy dictated by bugs in an unrelated
package. Seems an odd strategy.


If a change (Wayland default) is introducing issues to a stable (in a 
generic sense) system, shouldn't the change be postponed until the 
issues are resolved? Perhaps with the help from the change proponents.


--
Nazar

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[David Wright]

On Sat 06 Apr 2019 at 08:42:31 (+0100), Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 09:39:23PM -0500, David Wright wrote:
> >   "Why not make a [Conflicts:] with Wayland / Gnome? It's not
> >possible to make sure that synaptic installs on a [Conflicts:]
> >that would remove Wayland?"
> > 
> > This is probably the easiest option to support as it should be
> > possible to implement just by adding a line to the two Packages
> > files for the architectures affected.
> 
> This is not a proper use of Conflicts:.
> 
> Xorg and Wayland stuff can be installed side-by-side. Synaptic works fine on
> Gnome/Xorg. A conflicts: against Gnome would be nonsensical; a conflicts:
> against Wayland would prevent installing Wayland on a system that has Synaptic
> already, even if there was no intention to use them together; or prevent
> Synaptic installing on a system with Wayland present, even if it wasn't in 
> use.

I think you're right, so perhaps NEWS.Debian is the way to go.

> > Given a straight toss-up though, I think synaptic has to give way because
> > there are plenty of alternatives. I'd never heard of it until a few people
> > started mentioning it here, and I'd never consider using it myself on X 
> > except
> > as an ordinary user.
> 
> The severity of the bug in synaptic (which is what has caused its autoremoval)
> would not be "serious" if the default desktop was not Wayland. So changing
> *that*, would mean synaptic could be reintroduced.

So Debian should have its policy dictated by bugs in an unrelated
package. Seems an odd strategy.

Cheers,
David.

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[David Wright]

On Sat 06 Apr 2019 at 09:26:51 (-0400), Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Friday 05 April 2019 23:06:13 David Wright wrote:
> > On Fri 05 Apr 2019 at 14:21:21 (-0400), Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > On Friday 05 April 2019 11:05:00 Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> > >
> > > [...]
> > >
> > > > Indeed, and running the UI toolkit code as root was always
> > > > considered a bad design pattern, even whilst it works under X.
> > >
> > > But thats no longer possible with X, root cannot use the users
> > > display.
> > >
> > > And for me, the only user on this multiple machine network, that is
> > > a major PITA because of the extremely inconsistent workaround's.
> > >
> > > Give us a method to su or sudo root, and run the stuff needing root,
> > > at least a consistent procedure thats good for all releases.
> > > Changing it around makes applying the same user package update to
> > > every machine a different operation. LinuxCNC is updated in master
> > > at least 2x a week sometimes daily as a new feature gets added and
> > > needs debugged. So even if wheezy is dead, synaptic gets run quite
> > > frequently to keep that up to date. The jessie install on the pi for
> > > instance won't let me run synaptic from anyplace but its own
> > > keyboard. Anyplace else, and ssh'd in, I have to sudo apt etc.
> > >
> > > Consistency is the magic word, and we don't have it.
> >
> > I don't understand how you can expect consistency in an OS that
> > supports ~10 architectures and four releases, written over a period
> > of, say, six years or more. Particularly considering that it's
> > not possible to revise the earlier releases to take account of
> > changes forced by the evolution of software external to the project
> > and by increasing security exigencies.
> >
> If I'm willing to forgo web browsing, wheezy can still be running 20 
> years from  now, the only changes needed would be for ssh|l|tls stuff if 
> you are using it for email. I am behind a dd-wrt flashed router with no 
> local firewalls running anyplace on this local net.
> 
> No one has come past that that I didn't invite in, and I'm not doing a 
> thing to get that security that the rest of you can't do, probably even 
> better.
> 
> So I don't worry about security, I worry about interoperability on my 
> local network, but the way thats headed, there will not be the 
> possibility of my ssh'ing into one of my other machines and doing a 
> simple ls or pwd to see where I am.  That IMO is not real security, but 
> PARANOIA and should rightly be called as such.
> 
> This os was originally able to ignore whether the key/mouse stroke came 
> from its own keyboard, or one in Lisbon, Portugal. Or from this machine, 
> 100+ feet of cat5 away. This is NOT an M$ single user system, so quit 
> trying to restrict it to what a winders box can do.

I keep reading here that you have problems with ssh -X and -Y, but
find it difficult to replicate them here. I've been running a mix of
wheezy/jessie/stretch here with no problems (though I have retired
the wheezy versions recently and removed all references in
apt-cacher-ng now that the archives have moved).

> > You can hide any differences in how you obtain root by just wrapping
> > your command in a script, appropriate for each architecture/release.
> > Just one script to maintain if you use case or if/else.
> 
> Then Make it so...

I meant for you to do that, in the same way that I write scripts for
some user programs in order to cover up the differences between
versions of Debian, or the hardware (like sound cards) on different
hosts. It just means the differences are put into the scripts so you
can type the same thing without having to remember all the time.

$HOSTNAME is obvious, but I also have $Mycodename which is set from
the first line of sources.list. This gives a more consistent answer
the debian_version, os-release etc as it's under my control.

Cheers,
David.

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[David Wright]

On Sat 06 Apr 2019 at 09:00:14 (-0400), Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Friday 05 April 2019 22:39:23 David Wright wrote:
> > On Fri 05 Apr 2019 at 17:01:33 (-0400), Lee wrote:
> > > On 4/5/19, Reco  wrote:
> > > > On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 04:01:50PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> > > >> On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 12:56:49PM -, Curt wrote:
> > > >> > My understanding is the problem lies in the Gnome/Wayland combo
> > > >> > (which is the default combo starting with Buster).
> > > >>
> > > >> The problem there, IMHO, is Wayland being the default desktop
> > > >> choice.
> > > >
> > > > ... on amd64/i386 only. Whenever Wayland is the problem or the
> > > > solution, punishing all other supported architectures seems
> > > > extreme.
> > >
> > > That's what I don't understand.  Why remove the package if it's only
> > > a problem with some desktops?
> > >
> > > https://wiki.debian.org/Wayland
> > > Unsupported Desktop environments:
> > > Cinnamon: discussed
> > > MATE: planned, source (2014)
> > > XFCE: planned
> > >
> > > Can't [whatever installs the software] notice that Gnome is
> > > installed/selected & not install synaptic?  Or patch synaptic to
> > > realize it's running under Gnome & spit out an error message and
> > > quit?
> >
> > I think a better solution would be what's suggested in message #60
> > of the bug report:
> >
> >"Why not make a [Conflicts:] with Wayland / Gnome? It's not
> > possible to make sure that synaptic installs on a [Conflicts:]
> > that would remove Wayland?"
> >
> > This is probably the easiest option to support as it should be
> > possible to implement just by adding a line to the two Packages
> > files for the architectures affected.
> >
> > > Everybody pays the price because it doesn't work with Gnome seems a
> > > bit much.
> >
> I 110% agree. 
> 
> > Given a straight toss-up though, I think synaptic has to give way
> > because there are plenty of alternatives.
> 
> Name a Good One! I don't believe you can, and be nameing one the rest of 
> us can agree is a good substitute for it.  One that works as well as or 
> better than synaptic.

They're all good in their own ways. I don't know who "the rest of us"
is, nor who should pass judgment on them.

> > I'd never heard of it until 
> > a few people started mentioning it here, and I'd never consider using
> > it myself on X except as an ordinary user.
> >
> That David, I think would be your mistake, for not experienceing a 
> package manager that for 99.99% of the job, Just Works. Lots of people 
> here will defend aptitude, but I've had aptitude totally destroy my 
> systems 3 times now, IMNSHO it should come with big warning labels, and 
> a chance to abort it when you hit the g, because once its started to do 
> what it thinks is best, and it doesn't always tell you what else its 
> going to rip out because of perceived interdependencies, it is totally 
> unresponsive to anything but the power switch. In short, aptitude can be 
> extremely dangerous to anyone who /thinks/ its a good package manager.

I thought we'd determined that something was messed up in your
terminal definitions back in June 2016, as you were also complaining
about massive screen corruption in aptitude at that time, which no one
else was reporting. In which case, it was never clear to what
questions were actually posed when you were answering g and q.

Cheers,
David.

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[David Wright]

On Sat 06 Apr 2019 at 11:35:08 (+0100), Dominic Knight wrote:
> On Sat, 2019-04-06 at 19:56 +1100, David wrote:
> > On Sat, 6 Apr 2019 at 19:08, Curt  wrote:
> > > My impression from my general reading here is quite a few people
> > > rely on
> > > the synaptic package manager. I use apt-get; it's pie-like
> > > simplicity
> > > comforts me.
> >
> > Speaking in very broad terms to make a general and somewhat
> > obvious point, we could say that Gnome and synaptic are examples of
> > tools written by experts to assist lower-expertise users.
> >
> > It follows that most more-expert users (apart from the developers)
> > tend
> > not to use these kind of tools themselves. So support channels like
> > this one
> > and IRC tend to lack people who are able to answer questions based
> > on their own use of these tools, because they don't use, or even care
> > about, these kind of tools.
> >
> > I have seen this in IRC. People join there to ask questions
> > about Gnome for example, but no-one providing support in the
> > channel is actually using Gnome themselves, because they prefer more
> > sophisticatedenvironments, even though it's the default GUI for
> > Debian
> > that all the newbie questioners are using.
> >
> > Newbie asks "how do I do X in Gnome" ... and no-one there knows the
> > answer :)
> > This might be less of an issue in other distros than it is in Debian.
> >
> > > Thing is, beyond its innate and fundamental heresy (a gui app
> > > running as
> > > root!), synaptic is the only GUI package manager available in
> > > Debian
> > > AFAIK (I'm uncertain whether kpackage is defunct or not).
> >
> > If I understand correctly, Reco mentioned another one earlier in the
> > thread ...
> >
> > On Fri, 5 Apr 2019 at 00:02, Reco  wrote:
> > > The *unofficial* one is the existence of "gnome-packagekit". The
> > > thing
> > > needs users, and this is one of the ways of getting them.
> >
> > https://packages.debian.org/buster/gnome-packagekit
> > https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-packagekit/stable/intro.html.en
> >
> > I know nothing about it, I never tried it :)
> > I prefer using shell tools for package management.
> >
> > I certainly do use some GUI tools. 'meld' for example, for side-by-
> > side
> > diffs. If that was dropped from buster then I would notice :)
> >
> Lets take a look at installing gnome-packagekit and dependencies in
> Buster;
> 
> Retrieving bug reports... Done
> Parsing Found/Fixed information... Done
> serious bugs of unattended-upgrades (→ 1.11) 
>  b2 - #905877 - regression in 1.4: upgrades random packages from
> testing to experimental (doesn't respect pinning?)
> Summary:
>  unattended-upgrades(1 bug)
> 
> 
> Then again perhaps not just yet

I'm not sure unattended-upgrades is wise for buster.
But I'm happy that there are people who are prepared
to test testing with such packages.

OTOH unattended downloads are a different matter. I have

0 */3 * * * apt-get -qq update && apt-get -qq -d upgrade && find 
/var/cache/apt/archives/ -name '*deb'

in root's crontab which also sends an email whenever packages are
sitting in the cache. (My .bash_profile also checks that.)

Cheers,
David.

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Greg Wooledge]

On Sat, Apr 06, 2019 at 07:56:22PM +1100, David wrote:
> I have seen this in IRC. People join there to ask questions
> about Gnome for example, but no-one providing support in the
> channel is actually using Gnome themselves, because they prefer more
> sophisticatedenvironments, even though it's the default GUI for Debian
> that all the newbie questioners are using.
> 
> Newbie asks "how do I do X in Gnome" ... and no-one there knows the answer :)

This.  I've pointed it out myself, more than once.

However, "more sophisticated" is not really the target for people like me.
It's more like "simpler", or "more traditional", or "leaner", or "what
we're used to", depending on the actual person.

I'm sure GNOME provides way more features than my chosen window
manager does.  But I don't need or want those features.  I like my WM.
I understand how it works, and I know how to customize it exactly to
my preferences.  It doesn't launch dozens of useless processes to hog
resources, it doesn't blow up if my video driver/firmware aren't perfect,
and it doesn't introduce completely new and surprising ways to screw me
over on a periodic basis.

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Ric Moore]

On 4/4/19 10:15 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:


I frankly don't care if it needs users. To get users, it has to work. If
it doesn't work at least as well as synaptic, it will never get the
users. If thats not plain enough to the people making these descisions,
tuff luck.  This stuff gets its users by working, and gnome has not
recently demonstrated that. All I've seen in stretch is a roadblock to
getting anything useful done.


Amen. Another reason  that I use XFCE :) Ric

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 05 April 2019 23:06:13 David Wright wrote:

> On Fri 05 Apr 2019 at 14:21:21 (-0400), Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Friday 05 April 2019 11:05:00 Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > > Indeed, and running the UI toolkit code as root was always
> > > considered a bad design pattern, even whilst it works under X.
> >
> > But thats no longer possible with X, root cannot use the users
> > display.
> >
> > And for me, the only user on this multiple machine network, that is
> > a major PITA because of the extremely inconsistent workaround's.
> >
> > Give us a method to su or sudo root, and run the stuff needing root,
> > at least a consistent procedure thats good for all releases.
> > Changing it around makes applying the same user package update to
> > every machine a different operation. LinuxCNC is updated in master
> > at least 2x a week sometimes daily as a new feature gets added and
> > needs debugged. So even if wheezy is dead, synaptic gets run quite
> > frequently to keep that up to date. The jessie install on the pi for
> > instance won't let me run synaptic from anyplace but its own
> > keyboard. Anyplace else, and ssh'd in, I have to sudo apt etc.
> >
> > Consistency is the magic word, and we don't have it.
>
> I don't understand how you can expect consistency in an OS that
> supports ~10 architectures and four releases, written over a period
> of, say, six years or more. Particularly considering that it's
> not possible to revise the earlier releases to take account of
> changes forced by the evolution of software external to the project
> and by increasing security exigencies.
>
If I'm willing to forgo web browsing, wheezy can still be running 20 
years from  now, the only changes needed would be for ssh|l|tls stuff if 
you are using it for email. I am behind a dd-wrt flashed router with no 
local firewalls running anyplace on this local net.

No one has come past that that I didn't invite in, and I'm not doing a 
thing to get that security that the rest of you can't do, probably even 
better.

So I don't worry about security, I worry about interoperability on my 
local network, but the way thats headed, there will not be the 
possibility of my ssh'ing into one of my other machines and doing a 
simple ls or pwd to see where I am.  That IMO is not real security, but 
PARANOIA and should rightly be called as such.

This os was originally able to ignore whether the key/mouse stroke came 
from its own keyboard, or one in Lisbon, Portugal. Or from this machine, 
100+ feet of cat5 away. This is NOT an M$ single user system, so quit 
trying to restrict it to what a winders box can do.

> You can hide any differences in how you obtain root by just wrapping
> your command in a script, appropriate for each architecture/release.
> Just one script to maintain if you use case or if/else.

Then Make it so...

> (BTW It beats me why you need the functionality of synaptic to keep
> a wheezy system going. What do you do with it beyond the equivalent
> of running apt-get update/upgrade?)

Since the deb repo's went away, not much. I have 2 active lines left in 
my sources.list now.

> Cheers,
> David.


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 05 April 2019 22:39:23 David Wright wrote:

> On Fri 05 Apr 2019 at 17:01:33 (-0400), Lee wrote:
> > On 4/5/19, Reco  wrote:
> > > On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 04:01:50PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> > >> On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 12:56:49PM -, Curt wrote:
> > >> > My understanding is the problem lies in the Gnome/Wayland combo
> > >> > (which is the default combo starting with Buster).
> > >>
> > >> The problem there, IMHO, is Wayland being the default desktop
> > >> choice.
> > >
> > > ... on amd64/i386 only. Whenever Wayland is the problem or the
> > > solution, punishing all other supported architectures seems
> > > extreme.
> >
> > That's what I don't understand.  Why remove the package if it's only
> > a problem with some desktops?
> >
> > https://wiki.debian.org/Wayland
> > Unsupported Desktop environments:
> > Cinnamon: discussed
> > MATE: planned, source (2014)
> > XFCE: planned
> >
> > Can't [whatever installs the software] notice that Gnome is
> > installed/selected & not install synaptic?  Or patch synaptic to
> > realize it's running under Gnome & spit out an error message and
> > quit?
>
> I think a better solution would be what's suggested in message #60
> of the bug report:
>
>"Why not make a [Conflicts:] with Wayland / Gnome? It's not
> possible to make sure that synaptic installs on a [Conflicts:]
> that would remove Wayland?"
>
> This is probably the easiest option to support as it should be
> possible to implement just by adding a line to the two Packages
> files for the architectures affected.
>
> > Everybody pays the price because it doesn't work with Gnome seems a
> > bit much.
>
I 110% agree. 

> Given a straight toss-up though, I think synaptic has to give way
> because there are plenty of alternatives.

Name a Good One! I don't believe you can, and be nameing one the rest of 
us can agree is a good substitute for it.  One that works as well as or 
better than synaptic.

> I'd never heard of it until 
> a few people started mentioning it here, and I'd never consider using
> it myself on X except as an ordinary user.
>
That David, I think would be your mistake, for not experienceing a 
package manager that for 99.99% of the job, Just Works. Lots of people 
here will defend aptitude, but I've had aptitude totally destroy my 
systems 3 times now, IMNSHO it should come with big warning labels, and 
a chance to abort it when you hit the g, because once its started to do 
what it thinks is best, and it doesn't always tell you what else its 
going to rip out because of perceived interdependencies, it is totally 
unresponsive to anything but the power switch. In short, aptitude can be 
extremely dangerous to anyone who /thinks/ its a good package manager.

> Cheers,
> David.


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Curt]

On 2019-04-06, rhkra...@gmail.com  wrote:
>
> If synaptic, as somebody else has mentioned, helps with more complicated 
> upgrades (where maybe lots of packages have to be removed and then (I hope) 
> reinstalled, I might give synaptic a try.

So as far as GUI package managers go in Debian, there's synaptic (APT
front-end), apper, and gnome-packagekit, the latter two being front-ends
to packagekit, a daemon, which is a front-end itself (back-ended by
APTcc in Debian, though actually agnostic distribution-wise and
therefore back-end-wise, too, I guess)?

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Jan Claeys]

On Fri, 2019-04-05 at 15:30 -0500, David Wright wrote:
> On Fri 05 Apr 2019 at 21:34:15 (+0200), Jan Claeys wrote:
> > Another well-known one is GParted, which doesn't really have an
> > alternative for people to use instead...
> 
> Does parted not do the same things?

No, it can do some things GParted does (in fact, GParted uses libparted
for those), but GParted has additional features that parted doesn't,
like moving partitions including the filesystems on them.

> I must admit that in 24 years of linux, I've never run a GUI
> application as root. And I would have thought there's a case for
> using a TUI rather than a GUI if the need was pressing.

Obviously it would be better if GParted didn't run as root, but used a
model where a unprivileged process calls a privileged process to do the
actual "hard work" that needs those privileges. Unfortunately none of
the GParted developers have had the combination of time & skills to
rewrite GParted for that yet (help welcome).


-- 
Jan Claeys

(please don't CC me when replying to the list)

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Jan Claeys]

On Fri, 2019-04-05 at 17:01 -0400, Lee wrote:
> That's what I don't understand.  Why remove the package if it's only
> a problem with some desktops?

In fact, it's not even a problem on Gnome + Wayland, as you should be
able to run Synaptic as root with XWayland and the “right” xhost
setting (requires a small shell script to start Synaptic that way).


-- 
Jan Claeys

(please don't CC me when replying to the list)

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[rhkramer]

On Saturday, April 06, 2019 04:56:22 AM David wrote:
> On Sat, 6 Apr 2019 at 19:08, Curt  wrote:
> Newbie asks "how do I do X in Gnome" ... and no-one there knows the answer
> :) This might be less of an issue in other distros than it is in Debian.
> 
> > Thing is, beyond its innate and fundamental heresy (a gui app running as
> > root!), synaptic is the only GUI package manager available in Debian
> > AFAIK (I'm uncertain whether kpackage is defunct or not).
> 
> If I understand correctly, Reco mentioned another one earlier in the thread

I use apper in Wheezy (iirc, it came pre-installed and set up to run on boot).  
The nice feature (for me) is that it tells me when upgrades are available, and 
works well for simple upgrades.  (When I have something more complicated to do 
(or maybe just by habit), I use apt-get.)

Apper was pre-installed on Jessie and set up to run on boot, but is not set up 
properly -- it does not have root permission to actually install anything -- 
it notifies me when upgrades are available and then I use apt-get to install 
them.

Now that I know about kdesudo, I might try to run apper under kdesudo and see 
if that solves the problem.

If synaptic, as somebody else has mentioned, helps with more complicated 
upgrades (where maybe lots of packages have to be removed and then (I hope) 
reinstalled, I might give synaptic a try.

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Dominic Knight]

On Sat, 2019-04-06 at 19:56 +1100, David wrote:
> On Sat, 6 Apr 2019 at 19:08, Curt  wrote:
> > My impression from my general reading here is quite a few people
> > rely on
> > the synaptic package manager. I use apt-get; it's pie-like
> > simplicity
> > comforts me.
>
> Speaking in very broad terms to make a general and somewhat
> obvious point, we could say that Gnome and synaptic are examples of
> tools written by experts to assist lower-expertise users.
>
> It follows that most more-expert users (apart from the developers)
> tend
> not to use these kind of tools themselves. So support channels like
> this one
> and IRC tend to lack people who are able to answer questions based
> on their own use of these tools, because they don't use, or even care
> about, these kind of tools.
>
> I have seen this in IRC. People join there to ask questions
> about Gnome for example, but no-one providing support in the
> channel is actually using Gnome themselves, because they prefer more
> sophisticatedenvironments, even though it's the default GUI for
> Debian
> that all the newbie questioners are using.
>
> Newbie asks "how do I do X in Gnome" ... and no-one there knows the
> answer :)
> This might be less of an issue in other distros than it is in Debian.
>
> > Thing is, beyond its innate and fundamental heresy (a gui app
> > running as
> > root!), synaptic is the only GUI package manager available in
> > Debian
> > AFAIK (I'm uncertain whether kpackage is defunct or not).
>
> If I understand correctly, Reco mentioned another one earlier in the
> thread ...
>
> On Fri, 5 Apr 2019 at 00:02, Reco  wrote:
> > The *unofficial* one is the existence of "gnome-packagekit". The
> > thing
> > needs users, and this is one of the ways of getting them.
>
> https://packages.debian.org/buster/gnome-packagekit
> https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-packagekit/stable/intro.html.en
>
> I know nothing about it, I never tried it :)
> I prefer using shell tools for package management.
>
> I certainly do use some GUI tools. 'meld' for example, for side-by-
> side
> diffs. If that was dropped from buster then I would notice :)
>
Lets take a look at installing gnome-packagekit and dependencies in
Buster;

Retrieving bug reports... Done
Parsing Found/Fixed information... Done
serious bugs of unattended-upgrades (→ 1.11) 
 b2 - #905877 - regression in 1.4: upgrades random packages from
testing to experimental (doesn't respect pinning?)
Summary:
 unattended-upgrades(1 bug)


Then again perhaps not just yet

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[David]

On Sat, 6 Apr 2019 at 19:08, Curt  wrote:
>
> My impression from my general reading here is quite a few people rely on
> the synaptic package manager. I use apt-get; it's pie-like simplicity
> comforts me.

Speaking in very broad terms to make a general and somewhat
obvious point, we could say that Gnome and synaptic are examples of
tools written by experts to assist lower-expertise users.

It follows that most more-expert users (apart from the developers) tend
not to use these kind of tools themselves. So support channels like this one
and IRC tend to lack people who are able to answer questions based
on their own use of these tools, because they don't use, or even care
about, these kind of tools.

I have seen this in IRC. People join there to ask questions
about Gnome for example, but no-one providing support in the
channel is actually using Gnome themselves, because they prefer more
sophisticatedenvironments, even though it's the default GUI for Debian
that all the newbie questioners are using.

Newbie asks "how do I do X in Gnome" ... and no-one there knows the answer :)
This might be less of an issue in other distros than it is in Debian.

> Thing is, beyond its innate and fundamental heresy (a gui app running as
> root!), synaptic is the only GUI package manager available in Debian
> AFAIK (I'm uncertain whether kpackage is defunct or not).

If I understand correctly, Reco mentioned another one earlier in the thread ...

On Fri, 5 Apr 2019 at 00:02, Reco  wrote:
>
> The *unofficial* one is the existence of "gnome-packagekit". The thing
> needs users, and this is one of the ways of getting them.

https://packages.debian.org/buster/gnome-packagekit
https://help.gnome.org/users/gnome-packagekit/stable/intro.html.en

I know nothing about it, I never tried it :)
I prefer using shell tools for package management.

I certainly do use some GUI tools. 'meld' for example, for side-by-side
diffs. If that was dropped from buster then I would notice :)

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Joe]

On Sat, 6 Apr 2019 08:07:41 - (UTC)
Curt  wrote:

> On 2019-04-05, Lee  wrote:
> >
> > Can't [whatever installs the software] notice that Gnome is
> > installed/selected & not install synaptic?  Or patch synaptic to
> > realize it's running under Gnome & spit out an error message and
> > quit?
> >
> > Everybody pays the price because it doesn't work with Gnome seems a
> > bit much. 
> 
> My impression from my general reading here is quite a few people rely
> on the synaptic package manager. I use apt-get; it's pie-like
> simplicity comforts me.
> 
> Thing is, beyond its innate and fundamental heresy (a gui app running
> as root!), synaptic is the only GUI package manager available in
> Debian AFAIK (I'm uncertain whether kpackage is defunct or not).
> There are those uncomfortable with the command line, sometimes even
> to the point of panic, so not having a GUI alternative to such a
> critical piece of software might be devastating for some.
> 
> Then again, this is all a matter of supposition on my part, and as I
> don't see much genuine devastation in this thread, maybe I'm wrong.
> 

There are other reasons. I generally use aptitude on sid, but every now
and then, there's an upgrade that wants to remove ninety packages
because part of gcc/gtk/kf5/perl/whatever is going to be upgraded, but
not all of it is ready.

I generally switch to Synaptic, as I can then quickly find out which
packages can be upgraded without devastation, and just leave the
problematic ones. Yes, it can be done in aptitude. No, it cannot be
done as quickly, or at least I can't do it as quickly. 

And there was one occasion when I managed to upgrade everything with
Synaptic, that it was just a matter of doing the upgrades in batches in
the right order. Aptitude is normally good at that kind of thing, but
not when a hundred packages need to be done in stages.

I also find Synaptic easier when I'm searching for a package to do a
particular job. Again, aptitude can do that, but I find it more
difficult. If there was no point to using a GUI, it would never have
been invented, and we'd still be on the command line for everything. My
server is command-line only, but I don't use that for working, just
admin.

-- 
Joe

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Curt]

On 2019-04-05, Lee  wrote:
>
> Can't [whatever installs the software] notice that Gnome is
> installed/selected & not install synaptic?  Or patch synaptic to
> realize it's running under Gnome & spit out an error message and quit?
>
> Everybody pays the price because it doesn't work with Gnome seems a bit much.
>

My impression from my general reading here is quite a few people rely on
the synaptic package manager. I use apt-get; it's pie-like simplicity
comforts me.

Thing is, beyond its innate and fundamental heresy (a gui app running as
root!), synaptic is the only GUI package manager available in Debian
AFAIK (I'm uncertain whether kpackage is defunct or not).  There are
those uncomfortable with the command line, sometimes even to the point
of panic, so not having a GUI alternative to such a critical piece of
software might be devastating for some.

Then again, this is all a matter of supposition on my part, and as I
don't see much genuine devastation in this thread, maybe I'm wrong.

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 09:39:23PM -0500, David Wright wrote:

  "Why not make a [Conflicts:] with Wayland / Gnome? It's not
   possible to make sure that synaptic installs on a [Conflicts:]
   that would remove Wayland?"

This is probably the easiest option to support as it should be
possible to implement just by adding a line to the two Packages
files for the architectures affected.


This is not a proper use of Conflicts:.

Xorg and Wayland stuff can be installed side-by-side. Synaptic works fine on
Gnome/Xorg. A conflicts: against Gnome would be nonsensical; a conflicts:
against Wayland would prevent installing Wayland on a system that has Synaptic
already, even if there was no intention to use them together; or prevent
Synaptic installing on a system with Wayland present, even if it wasn't in use.


Given a straight toss-up though, I think synaptic has to give way because
there are plenty of alternatives. I'd never heard of it until a few people
started mentioning it here, and I'd never consider using it myself on X except
as an ordinary user.


The severity of the bug in synaptic (which is what has caused its autoremoval)
would not be "serious" if the default desktop was not Wayland. So changing
*that*, would mean synaptic could be reintroduced.


--

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[David Wright]

On Fri 05 Apr 2019 at 14:21:21 (-0400), Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Friday 05 April 2019 11:05:00 Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > Indeed, and running the UI toolkit code as root was always considered
> > a bad design pattern, even whilst it works under X.
> 
> But thats no longer possible with X, root cannot use the users display. 
> 
> And for me, the only user on this multiple machine network, that is a 
> major PITA because of the extremely inconsistent workaround's.
> 
> Give us a method to su or sudo root, and run the stuff needing root, at 
> least a consistent procedure thats good for all releases. Changing it 
> around makes applying the same user package update to every machine a 
> different operation. LinuxCNC is updated in master at least 2x a week 
> sometimes daily as a new feature gets added and needs debugged. So even 
> if wheezy is dead, synaptic gets run quite frequently to keep that up to 
> date. The jessie install on the pi for instance won't let me run 
> synaptic from anyplace but its own keyboard. Anyplace else, and ssh'd 
> in, I have to sudo apt etc.
> 
> Consistency is the magic word, and we don't have it.

I don't understand how you can expect consistency in an OS that
supports ~10 architectures and four releases, written over a period
of, say, six years or more. Particularly considering that it's
not possible to revise the earlier releases to take account of
changes forced by the evolution of software external to the project
and by increasing security exigencies.

You can hide any differences in how you obtain root by just wrapping
your command in a script, appropriate for each architecture/release.
Just one script to maintain if you use case or if/else.

(BTW It beats me why you need the functionality of synaptic to keep
a wheezy system going. What do you do with it beyond the equivalent
of running apt-get update/upgrade?)

Cheers,
David.

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[David Wright]

On Fri 05 Apr 2019 at 17:01:33 (-0400), Lee wrote:
> On 4/5/19, Reco  wrote:
> > On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 04:01:50PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> >> On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 12:56:49PM -, Curt wrote:
> >> > My understanding is the problem lies in the Gnome/Wayland combo (which
> >> > is the default combo starting with Buster).
> >>
> >> The problem there, IMHO, is Wayland being the default desktop choice.
> >
> > ... on amd64/i386 only. Whenever Wayland is the problem or the solution,
> > punishing all other supported architectures seems extreme.
> 
> That's what I don't understand.  Why remove the package if it's only a
> problem with some desktops?
> 
> https://wiki.debian.org/Wayland
> Unsupported Desktop environments:
> Cinnamon: discussed
> MATE: planned, source (2014)
> XFCE: planned
> 
> Can't [whatever installs the software] notice that Gnome is
> installed/selected & not install synaptic?  Or patch synaptic to
> realize it's running under Gnome & spit out an error message and quit?

I think a better solution would be what's suggested in message #60
of the bug report:

   "Why not make a [Conflicts:] with Wayland / Gnome? It's not
possible to make sure that synaptic installs on a [Conflicts:]
that would remove Wayland?"

This is probably the easiest option to support as it should be
possible to implement just by adding a line to the two Packages
files for the architectures affected.

> Everybody pays the price because it doesn't work with Gnome seems a bit much.

Given a straight toss-up though, I think synaptic has to give way
because there are plenty of alternatives. I'd never heard of it until
a few people started mentioning it here, and I'd never consider using
it myself on X except as an ordinary user.

Cheers,
David.

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[mick crane]

On 2019-04-05 21:13, David Wright wrote:


From this and other posts of yours, you seem to feel very vulnerable
when connected to anywhere outside your system, as if you're under
a man-in-the-middle attack all the time.


Do I come across like that ?
It is probably correct. I think it is because I don't understand all of 
this stuff.
I understand bits here and there, yet it does seem increasingly 
difficult to know what exactly is going on.



A solution is for root to add lines like:

Cmnd_Alias  EMAILQUEUED = /bin/ls -lR /var/spool/exim4/
ME  MYHOSTS = (EMAIL)   EMAILQUEUED
## who  where   = (as_whom) what

to a file like /etc/sudoers.d/foo so that you (defined as ME) can
run that specific command as Debian-exim (EMAIL) on given hosts.
Now, a bash function can be defined to handle all the typing for
you (as user):

my-q ()
{
[ -n "$1" ] && printf '%s\n' "Usage: $FUNCNAME
checks the outbound mail queue." 1>&2 && return 1;
ps -p $(pgrep exim4);
sudo -u Debian-exim ls -lR /var/spool/exim4/
}

$ my-q



thanks for that.


Cheers,
David.


mick

--
Key ID4BFEBB31

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[David]

On Sat, 6 Apr 2019 at 09:35, Nicholas Geovanis  wrote:
>
> I just found this Ubuntu announcement from January. 17.10 had picked up 
> wayland. But 18.04 dropped back to X.org due to stability and app 
> compatibility issues:
> https://www.neowin.net/news/ubuntu-1804-will-revert-to-long-in-the-tooth-xorg

Thanks for the information. For anyone who prefers to read the source
without the middleman, it links to the actual Ubuntu announcement here:
https://blog.ubuntu.com/2018/01/26/bionic-beaver-18-04-lts-to-use-xorg-by-default

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Doug]

On 04/05/2019 03:34 PM, Jan Claeys wrote:

On Thu, 2019-04-04 at 16:22 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:

How many graphical programs does Debian actually have that are
intended to be run as root on a desktop?  It's certainly not "half
the os's utilities".  I'd be surprised if there are as many as ten.

Another well-known one is GParted, which doesn't really have an
alternative for people to use instead...



You can download a version of GParted that is bootable, and you don't
need your operating system to use it. You can then change labels, or
expand or compress partitions without regard to what's on them.
You can even add or delete partitions, so be careful.
--doug

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Nicholas Geovanis]

I just found this Ubuntu announcement from January. 17.03 had picked up
wayland. But 18.04 dropped back to X.org.
https://www.neowin.net/news/ubuntu-1804-will-revert-to-long-in-the-tooth-xorg

On Fri, Apr 5, 2019, 4:01 PM Lee  wrote:

> On 4/5/19, Reco  wrote:
> >   Hi.
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 04:01:50PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> >> On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 12:56:49PM -, Curt wrote:
> >> > My understanding is the problem lies in the Gnome/Wayland combo (which
> >> > is the default combo starting with Buster).
> >>
> >> The problem there, IMHO, is Wayland being the default desktop choice.
> >
> > ... on amd64/i386 only. Whenever Wayland is the problem or the solution,
> > punishing all other supported architectures seems extreme.
>
> That's what I don't understand.  Why remove the package if it's only a
> problem with some desktops?
>
> https://wiki.debian.org/Wayland
> Unsupported Desktop environments:
> Cinnamon: discussed
> MATE: planned, source (2014)
> XFCE: planned
>
> Can't [whatever installs the software] notice that Gnome is
> installed/selected & not install synaptic?  Or patch synaptic to
> realize it's running under Gnome & spit out an error message and quit?
>
> Everybody pays the price because it doesn't work with Gnome seems a bit
> much.
>
> Lee
>
>

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Charlie]

Received from Gene on Fri, 5 Apr 2019 13:42:57 -0400 Re:
'synaptic' removed from buster

> We all tend to forget these guys like to eat and pay the rent, so
> most have a $dayjob unless a student with an arm long enough to reach
> Daddy's wallet. And we users should not so readily forget that.

> Sadly there are times when I too am blatantly forgetfull of that.
> Thanks to all the people that make debian happen.

I have to second Gene's sentiments. Because in truth, have the same
lapse sometimes for just a moment. We know so little about those who
code, maintain and manage the whole Debian operating system and the
individual packages.

As well, we never get the whole story. A maintainer or one who has/is
working on the coding of a package may be told that something just
doesn't fit into the whole tapestry, leaving a piece hanging or
creating a loop that might be snagged.

How many have submitted work that has brought them great joy and had it
knocked back for some reason to be redone, or parts to be redone? We
don't read about it. because certainly in my case, don't know where
to look, so are unable to say, thank you for your efforts.

I know nothing about writing code, or much about computers [that's
probably why some of the terminology used may be rubbish] so am unable
to help as my infrequent posts to this list indicate. I bludge off the
work of others who know more and can/do more with computers and those
on this list who share information.

Volunteering in various fields I know a little about, the reason I am
unable to contribute to the maintainers, coders and others who do what
they can when they can for Debian and it's packages. Understand the
frustration that those who volunteer for Debian might feel.

I admit to momentary frustration when something doesn't work as I would
wish, or as it did in the past. But know in Testing this does happen.
Take time to consider all those working, often as volunteers, to
create something that will, when ready, give me great pleasure and
increase my productivity.

Though I write it too seldom, I appreciate all the work that is done,
and all those who do it to make Debian what it is today. More strength
to your arm,

Stay well,
Charlie

East Gippsland Wildlife Rehabilitators Inc..
 http://www.egwildlife.com.au/

-- 
Registered Linux User:- 329524
***

The world is full of magic things, patiently waiting for our
senses to grow sharper. ---W.B. Yeats

***

Debian GNU/Linux - Magic indeed.

-

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Nicholas Geovanis]

I just found this Ubuntu announcement from January. 17.10 had picked up
wayland. But 18.04 dropped back to X.org due to stability and app
compatibility issues:
https://www.neowin.net/news/ubuntu-1804-will-revert-to-long-in-the-tooth-xorg

On Fri, Apr 5, 2019, 4:01 PM Lee  wrote:

> On 4/5/19, Reco  wrote:
> >   Hi.
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 04:01:50PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> >> On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 12:56:49PM -, Curt wrote:
> >> > My understanding is the problem lies in the Gnome/Wayland combo (which
> >> > is the default combo starting with Buster).
> >>
> >> The problem there, IMHO, is Wayland being the default desktop choice.
> >
> > ... on amd64/i386 only. Whenever Wayland is the problem or the solution,
> > punishing all other supported architectures seems extreme.
>
> That's what I don't understand.  Why remove the package if it's only a
> problem with some desktops?
>
> https://wiki.debian.org/Wayland
> Unsupported Desktop environments:
> Cinnamon: discussed
> MATE: planned, source (2014)
> XFCE: planned
>
> Can't [whatever installs the software] notice that Gnome is
> installed/selected & not install synaptic?  Or patch synaptic to
> realize it's running under Gnome & spit out an error message and quit?
>
> Everybody pays the price because it doesn't work with Gnome seems a bit
> much.
>
> Lee
>
>

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Lee]

On 4/5/19, Reco  wrote:
>   Hi.
>
> On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 04:01:50PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
>> On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 12:56:49PM -, Curt wrote:
>> > My understanding is the problem lies in the Gnome/Wayland combo (which
>> > is the default combo starting with Buster).
>>
>> The problem there, IMHO, is Wayland being the default desktop choice.
>
> ... on amd64/i386 only. Whenever Wayland is the problem or the solution,
> punishing all other supported architectures seems extreme.

That's what I don't understand.  Why remove the package if it's only a
problem with some desktops?

https://wiki.debian.org/Wayland
Unsupported Desktop environments:
Cinnamon: discussed
MATE: planned, source (2014)
XFCE: planned

Can't [whatever installs the software] notice that Gnome is
installed/selected & not install synaptic?  Or patch synaptic to
realize it's running under Gnome & spit out an error message and quit?

Everybody pays the price because it doesn't work with Gnome seems a bit much.

Lee

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 05 April 2019 15:34:15 Jan Claeys wrote:

> On Thu, 2019-04-04 at 16:22 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > How many graphical programs does Debian actually have that are
> > intended to be run as root on a desktop?  It's certainly not "half
> > the os's utilities".  I'd be surprised if there are as many as ten.
>
> Another well-known one is GParted, which doesn't really have an
> alternative for people to use instead...

Its the swiss army knife of these tools, best to keep it handy.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[David Wright]

On Fri 05 Apr 2019 at 21:34:15 (+0200), Jan Claeys wrote:
> On Thu, 2019-04-04 at 16:22 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > How many graphical programs does Debian actually have that are
> > intended to be run as root on a desktop?  It's certainly not "half
> > the os's utilities".  I'd be surprised if there are as many as ten.
> 
> Another well-known one is GParted, which doesn't really have an
> alternative for people to use instead...

Does parted not do the same things?

I must admit that in 24 years of linux, I've never run a GUI
application as root. And I would have thought there's a case for
using a TUI rather than a GUI if the need was pressing.

Cheers,
David.

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[David Wright]

On Fri 05 Apr 2019 at 11:07:42 (+0100), mick crane wrote:
> On 2019-04-05 10:51, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 08:43:32AM +0100, mick crane wrote:
> > > On 2019-04-05 07:46, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > > >On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 07:37:05AM +0100, mick crane wrote:
> > > >
> > > >[...]
> > > >
> > > >>Making you be root to download stuff off the internet never seemed
> > > >>like a good idea.
> > > >
> > > >And letting "you" (not root) install things in system directories
> > > >(/usr/bin et al) seems to be as bad an idea [...]
> > 
> > [...]
> > 
> > > what's the issue with
> > > seeing what's available as you,
> > > checking what you need as root,
> > > downloading as you,
> > > install as root.

>From this and other posts of yours, you seem to feel very vulnerable
when connected to anywhere outside your system, as if you're under
a man-in-the-middle attack all the time.

If your user account is compromised through, say, unwise browsing of
the web, then downloading packages/checksums as user will make for
far greater vulnerability, and root could end up installing all sorts
of bogus stuff.

> > Imagine some random javascript (running as you, the "normal" user
> > starts doing system things (browser sandboxing? nah!). At this point
> > I'd hope I get asked for my password, to get a chance to stop the
> > whole shenanigan. But that's just me...
> 
> well normal user isn't supposed to do system things. Sudo makes me
> nervous.

Let's take a real scenario. You've sent some largish emails, and are
impatient to close down the machine. How do you find out whether your
emails have actually left your system? Two easy ways: see if material
is still queued, or check exim's log. Two problems: /var/spool/exim4
can't be read at all (Debian-exim required) and neither can
/var/log/exim4 (adm required).

You can fix the latter by being included in adm. Now you can see
which have left the machine, and you *might* notice emails that failed
if there's not too much traffic. OTOH you don't want to be included in
Debian-exim and be able to read/interfere with/delete emails, but need
to see the spool.

A solution is for root to add lines like:

Cmnd_Alias  EMAILQUEUED = /bin/ls -lR /var/spool/exim4/
ME  MYHOSTS = (EMAIL)   EMAILQUEUED
## who  where   = (as_whom) what

to a file like /etc/sudoers.d/foo so that you (defined as ME) can
run that specific command as Debian-exim (EMAIL) on given hosts.
Now, a bash function can be defined to handle all the typing for
you (as user):

my-q ()
{
[ -n "$1" ] && printf '%s\n' "Usage:$FUNCNAME
checks the outbound mail queue." 1>&2 && return 1;
ps -p $(pgrep exim4);
sudo -u Debian-exim ls -lR /var/spool/exim4/
}

$ my-q

Cheers,
David.

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Jan Claeys]

On Thu, 2019-04-04 at 16:22 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> How many graphical programs does Debian actually have that are
> intended to be run as root on a desktop?  It's certainly not "half
> the os's utilities".  I'd be surprised if there are as many as ten.

Another well-known one is GParted, which doesn't really have an
alternative for people to use instead...


-- 
Jan Claeys

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Richard Owlett]

On 04/05/2019 01:36 PM, Andy Smith wrote:

Hello,

On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 07:44:32AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

I installed Buster *only* because an application I'm investigating requires
the version of Python in Buster.


Another option may be to use "virtualenv" or a similar trick to run
just the upstream Python and required modules atop a normal Debian
stable.

 https://www.pythonforbeginners.com/basics/how-to-use-python-virtualenv

Cheers,
Andy



I suspect I'll go the back-port route. I prefer to learn tools that 
increase my Debian experience over experience with a particular package.

Thanks.

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 07:44:32AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
> I installed Buster *only* because an application I'm investigating requires
> the version of Python in Buster.

Another option may be to use "virtualenv" or a similar trick to run
just the upstream Python and required modules atop a normal Debian
stable.

https://www.pythonforbeginners.com/basics/how-to-use-python-virtualenv

Cheers,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 05 April 2019 11:05:00 Jonathan Dowland wrote:

[...]

> Indeed, and running the UI toolkit code as root was always considered
> a bad design pattern, even whilst it works under X.

But thats no longer possible with X, root cannot use the users display. 

And for me, the only user on this multiple machine network, that is a 
major PITA because of the extremely inconsistent workaround's.

Give us a method to su or sudo root, and run the stuff needing root, at 
least a consistent procedure thats good for all releases. Changing it 
around makes applying the same user package update to every machine a 
different operation. LinuxCNC is updated in master at least 2x a week 
sometimes daily as a new feature gets added and needs debugged. So even 
if wheezy is dead, synaptic gets run quite frequently to keep that up to 
date. The jessie install on the pi for instance won't let me run 
synaptic from anyplace but its own keyboard. Anyplace else, and ssh'd 
in, I have to sudo apt etc.

Consistency is the magic word, and we don't have it.

Thanks.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 05 April 2019 09:03:40 Francisco M Neto wrote:

> Greetings!
>
> On Thu, 2019-04-04 at 14:46 +0100, Brad Rogers wrote:
> > To add to what Curt and Reco have said:  Running Synaptic using a
> > Wayland/Gnome combo,by clicking on an icon, it doesn't start.  Not
> > very helpful, I think you'll agree. Especially for software that's
> > aimed squarely at GUI users.  Started from a shell an error is,
> > however, reported.  It's unfortunate that, as yet, a remedy has not
> > been forthcoming.
>
>   Thanks for your input, and Curt and Reco as well.
>
>   I'm not a big user of Synaptic myself, although sometimes it's easier
> to mark several packages and not worry about dependencies, instead of
> going through all the trouble of making several apt searches in
> command line.
>
> \begin{rant}
>
>   That being said, my *main* beef with Synaptic being out of Buster is
> an entirely different matter. I would not object to removing it from
> the release, *if* a viable alternative was available with at least the
> same level of functionality, which does *not* seem to be the case.
>   What is even worse, though, is the attitude of some people about
> that. I asked the same question I asked in my previous email in
> #debian-next yesterday, only to leave the channel before the flamewar
> became full fledged. I was "gently" reminded by certain people there
> of why, in the end, I have never gone all the way into trying to
> become a DM or a DD. Synaptic, which provides a very useful
> functionality to a large number of users, was unapologetically removed
> from the release because it does not work with the "default"
> installation. Which is understandable, but also extreme. If someone
> happens to *not* use the default installation, be it by not using
> Gnome, or not using Wayland, they are kept from updating an important
> piece of their maintenance toolkit. And that's inexcusable, especially
> when all they can say about it is "maintainer didn't do his job" or
> "if you want this fixed, do it yourself".
>   Well, no. Being a free software user or even a Debian enthusiast does
> not make me a specialist in packaging, or in Synaptic internals, or
> Wayland internals for that matter. When someone who claims to be a
> Debian Developer or Maintainer or whatever, who is in a position of
> being responsible for ensuring that the release is as good as it can
> be, excuses themselves from fixing a Release Critical bug just because
> "they have better things to do", they are not doing a very good job.
> And, to be quite honest, I don't think they should be in that
> position.
>
>   Sadly, it's an attitude that I have encountered more often than not
> when trying to dialogue with people involved in Debian (or in Gnome,
> by the way). And that's just very sad.
>
> \end{rant}
>
> Have a good day, gentlemen.
> Francisco

Extremely well said, Francisco

Attitudes do not seem to be improving despite the beatings. Perhaps we 
should start a go-fund-me for a few beers now & then?

TANSTAAFL applies here too folks.

We all tend to forget these guys like to eat and pay the rent, so most 
have a $dayjob unless a student with an arm long enough to reach Daddy's 
wallet.  And we users should not so readily forget that.

Sadly there are times when I too am blatantly forgetfull of that. Thanks 
to all the people that make debian happen.

 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Reco]

Hi.

On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 04:01:50PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 12:56:49PM -, Curt wrote:
> > My understanding is the problem lies in the Gnome/Wayland combo (which
> > is the default combo starting with Buster).
> 
> The problem there, IMHO, is Wayland being the default desktop choice.

... on amd64/i386 only. Whenever Wayland is the problem or the solution,
punishing all other supported architectures seems extreme.

Reco

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Francisco M Neto]

On Sat, 2019-04-06 at 00:29 +1100, David wrote:
> On Sat, 6 Apr 2019 at 00:25, Francisco M Neto  wrote:
> > Have a good day, gentlemen.
> 
> Why are the good wishes to gentlemen only?

Proverbial gentlemen. Ladies and other gender denominations are,
naturally, all included <3

Francisco


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Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 04:22:43PM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:

How many graphical programs does Debian actually have that are intended
to be run as root on a desktop?  It's certainly not "half the os's
utilities".  I'd be surprised if there are as many as ten.


Indeed, and running the UI toolkit code as root was always considered a
bad design pattern, even whilst it works under X.

--

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 04:15:32PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:

I didn't intend to say it was simple. Its also incorrect. Fix one or the
other, but I don't expect it to be "simple".  You fix wayland once, or
you fix half the os's utilities.


The "fix" you describe for Wayland would be to remove the security
distinction between users. You enjoy throwing around comparisons to
Windows-3.0: what you advocate would be a move entirely in that
direction.


--

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 12:56:49PM -, Curt wrote:

My understanding is the problem lies in the Gnome/Wayland combo (which
is the default combo starting with Buster).


The problem there, IMHO, is Wayland being the default desktop choice.

--

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[David]

On Sat, 6 Apr 2019 at 00:25, Francisco M Neto  wrote:
>
> Have a good day, gentlemen.

Why are the good wishes to gentlemen only?

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Francisco M Neto]

Greetings!

On Thu, 2019-04-04 at 14:46 +0100, Brad Rogers wrote:
> To add to what Curt and Reco have said:  Running Synaptic using a
> Wayland/Gnome combo,by clicking on an icon, it doesn't start.  Not very
> helpful, I think you'll agree. Especially for software that's aimed
> squarely at GUI users.  Started from a shell an error is, however,
> reported.  It's unfortunate that, as yet, a remedy has not been
> forthcoming.

Thanks for your input, and Curt and Reco as well. 

I'm not a big user of Synaptic myself, although sometimes it's easier to
mark several packages and not worry about dependencies, instead of going through
all the trouble of making several apt searches in command line. 

\begin{rant}

That being said, my *main* beef with Synaptic being out of Buster is an
entirely different matter. I would not object to removing it from the release,
*if* a viable alternative was available with at least the same level of
functionality, which does *not* seem to be the case. 
What is even worse, though, is the attitude of some people about that. I
asked the same question I asked in my previous email in #debian-next yesterday,
only to leave the channel before the flamewar became full fledged. I was
"gently" reminded by certain people there of why, in the end, I have never gone
all the way into trying to become a DM or a DD. Synaptic, which provides a very
useful functionality to a large number of users, was unapologetically removed
from the release because it does not work with the "default" installation. Which
is understandable, but also extreme. If someone happens to *not* use the default
installation, be it by not using Gnome, or not using Wayland, they are kept from
updating an important piece of their maintenance toolkit. And that's
inexcusable, especially when all they can say about it is "maintainer didn't do
his job" or "if you want this fixed, do it yourself".
Well, no. Being a free software user or even a Debian enthusiast does
not make me a specialist in packaging, or in Synaptic internals, or Wayland
internals for that matter. When someone who claims to be a Debian Developer or
Maintainer or whatever, who is in a position of being responsible for ensuring
that the release is as good as it can be, excuses themselves from fixing a
Release Critical bug just because "they have better things to do", they are not
doing a very good job. And, to be quite honest, I don't think they should be in
that position.

Sadly, it's an attitude that I have encountered more often than not when
trying to dialogue with people involved in Debian (or in Gnome, by the way). And
that's just very sad.

\end{rant}

Have a good day, gentlemen.
Francisco

-- 
[]'s,

Francisco M Neto

GPG: 4096R/D692FBF0


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Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Richard Owlett]

On 04/04/2019 07:20 AM, Curt wrote:

On 2019-04-04, David  wrote:

People accustomed to using synaptic might want to begin considering
alternative tools, because synaptic has been removed from buster.

More info:
https://tracker.debian.org/news/1037065/synaptic-removed-from-testing/
https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/synaptic
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=818366#55
https://release.debian.org/buster/freeze_policy.html
https://www.reddit.com/r/debian/comments/b7ylny/synaptic_no_longer_in_buster_should_i_start/




Owlett's gonna be pissed.


Unsupportable presumption.
If I find Buster "broken" [my definition], I skip that release.
I have no problems with Stretch.

I installed Buster *only* because an application I'm investigating 
requires the version of Python in Buster. I have a personal preference 
to not use back-ports. I generally avoid testing to the extent that when 
a release moves from testing to stable, I wait for at least one point 
release before installing.


I don't recall why, but I installed Stretch before it was "stable". I 
had no problems. That encouraged me to try Buster. Doubt very much if my 
recent problems with Synaptic have much to do directly with Buster. 
[BUG745381 comes close to my concerns]




Synaptic doesn't play nice with the Wayland protocol, Gnome desktop with
Wayland is the new default desktop/login mode in Buster, so Synaptic's out?


I agree with one comment on Bug818366 says in part:
" ... if synaptic can't be run on the default desktop in the default
login mode, isn't the average user better of if we don't ship synaptic 
with buster?"
I am NOT a Gnome user, but I understand my much preferred desktop, MATE, 
is likely to have related problems.





Lots of veteran newbies will be seriously discombobulated if they don't have
their Synaptic, I'd guess.


Am I a "veteran newbie", or just someone with a different experience and 
set of goals than you?
I took my first programming course before Linus created Linux [in fact 
years before he was born ;] Although some of my jobs involved 
programming, I never classed myself as a "programmer". I abandoned M$ 
because they thought they new my needs/desires better than I.

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[tomas]

On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 12:46:28PM +0100, mick crane wrote:
> On 2019-04-05 12:37, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> >On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 12:28:18PM +0100, mick crane wrote:

[...]

> well su root and then enter root's password always seemed to work.

Yes, of course. I was arguing with the "normal user should be able
to download packages" part -- download, yes. Install, no way.

For this there's no difference between su and sudo.

I do prefer sudo because (a) it makes it easy to gain privileges
for just one command (thus it makes it easy to avoid simple mistakes),
and (b) it gives finer control for specific scenarios (the backup
example). But hey, whatever floats your boat.

Cheers
-- t


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Description: Digital signature

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[mick crane]

On 2019-04-05 12:37, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 12:28:18PM +0100, mick crane wrote:

[...]


probably I don't understand. What I'm mooting is who knows what
skillful cracker can get hold of your account credentials when
online. If user can't do root stuff on strength of their own
password then any malignant activity would be limited.


It's not about user/root as different /persons/, but as different
/roles/. I want to be able to "do" root on my box (and I want
everyone to have that possibility on their box). But I want to
be aware of /when/ I'm playing the root role.


well su root and then enter root's password always seemed to work.


Cheers
-- t


--
Key ID4BFEBB31

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[tomas]

On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 12:28:18PM +0100, mick crane wrote:

[...]

> probably I don't understand. What I'm mooting is who knows what
> skillful cracker can get hold of your account credentials when
> online. If user can't do root stuff on strength of their own
> password then any malignant activity would be limited.

It's not about user/root as different /persons/, but as different
/roles/. I want to be able to "do" root on my box (and I want
everyone to have that possibility on their box). But I want to
be aware of /when/ I'm playing the root role.

Cheers
-- t


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Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[mick crane]

On 2019-04-05 11:27, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 11:07:42AM +0100, mick crane wrote:

[...]


well normal user isn't supposed to do system things. Sudo makes me
nervous.


You don't seem to understand sudo.

It lets you control finely under which conditions a normal user
is able to change to root. One posibility (one edit of /etc/sudoers
away) would be "never", if you like that.

Another (imo more sensible) would be: when doing backup, always;
when installing packages, only this or that user, giving her 
credentials;

or giving root's credentials.

You name it.

Cheers
-- t
probably I don't understand. What I'm mooting is who knows what skillful 
cracker can get hold of your account credentials when online. If user 
can't do root stuff on strength of their own password then any malignant 
activity would be limited.

--
Key ID4BFEBB31

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[tomas]

On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 11:07:42AM +0100, mick crane wrote:

[...]

> well normal user isn't supposed to do system things. Sudo makes me
> nervous.

You don't seem to understand sudo.

It lets you control finely under which conditions a normal user
is able to change to root. One posibility (one edit of /etc/sudoers
away) would be "never", if you like that.

Another (imo more sensible) would be: when doing backup, always;
when installing packages, only this or that user, giving her credentials;
or giving root's credentials.

You name it.

Cheers
-- t


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[mick crane]

On 2019-04-05 10:51, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 08:43:32AM +0100, mick crane wrote:

On 2019-04-05 07:46, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
>On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 07:37:05AM +0100, mick crane wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>>Making you be root to download stuff off the internet never seemed
>>like a good idea.
>
>And letting "you" (not root) install things in system directories
>(/usr/bin et al) seems to be as bad an idea [...]


[...]


what's the issue with
seeing what's available as you,
checking what you need as root,
downloading as you,
install as root.


Imagine some random javascript (running as you, the "normal" user
starts doing system things (browser sandboxing? nah!). At this point
I'd hope I get asked for my password, to get a chance to stop the
whole shenanigan. But that's just me...

Cheers
-- t
well normal user isn't supposed to do system things. Sudo makes me 
nervous.

--
Key ID4BFEBB31

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[mick crane]

On 2019-04-05 10:06, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Friday 05 April 2019 02:37:05 mick crane wrote:


On 2019-04-04 20:57, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 03:46:52PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
>> The solution seems simple enough, fix wayland.  This is after all a
>> multiuser and multitasking OS, why go out of the way, way out of
>> the way
>> to make it work like win-3.0?
>
> The notion of running a client as user X to talk to a display server
> running as user Y seems to directly contradict the Wayland security
> model.  As far as I can understand it, given the rather vague
> Wayland documentation I've seen so far.
>
> I think the "correct" fix for synaptic would be to redesign it to
> run the
> graphical interface as you, communicating with an auxiliary process
> that
> runs as root which can install and remove packages.  That second
> process
> could be a child of synaptic, or an independent daemon of some kind.
> Authentication methods to be determined by whomever does the work.
>
> I would not describe this solution as "simple".  Maybe you had a
> different
> solution in mind.

Making you be root to download stuff off the internet never seemed
like a good idea.

mick


Good point, Mick. But then who owns /var/cache/apt?


I dunno, I asked a similar question when I installed gentoo over a dial 
up modem.

2 weeks on the phone line as root didn't seem sensible.



Cheers, Gene Heskett


--
Key ID4BFEBB31

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[tomas]

On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 08:43:32AM +0100, mick crane wrote:
> On 2019-04-05 07:46, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> >On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 07:37:05AM +0100, mick crane wrote:
> >
> >[...]
> >
> >>Making you be root to download stuff off the internet never seemed
> >>like a good idea.
> >
> >And letting "you" (not root) install things in system directories
> >(/usr/bin et al) seems to be as bad an idea [...]

[...]

> what's the issue with
> seeing what's available as you,
> checking what you need as root,
> downloading as you,
> install as root.

Imagine some random javascript (running as you, the "normal" user
starts doing system things (browser sandboxing? nah!). At this point
I'd hope I get asked for my password, to get a chance to stop the
whole shenanigan. But that's just me...

Cheers
-- t


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 05 April 2019 02:37:05 mick crane wrote:

> On 2019-04-04 20:57, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 03:46:52PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> >> The solution seems simple enough, fix wayland.  This is after all a
> >> multiuser and multitasking OS, why go out of the way, way out of
> >> the way
> >> to make it work like win-3.0?
> >
> > The notion of running a client as user X to talk to a display server
> > running as user Y seems to directly contradict the Wayland security
> > model.  As far as I can understand it, given the rather vague
> > Wayland documentation I've seen so far.
> >
> > I think the "correct" fix for synaptic would be to redesign it to
> > run the
> > graphical interface as you, communicating with an auxiliary process
> > that
> > runs as root which can install and remove packages.  That second
> > process
> > could be a child of synaptic, or an independent daemon of some kind.
> > Authentication methods to be determined by whomever does the work.
> >
> > I would not describe this solution as "simple".  Maybe you had a
> > different
> > solution in mind.
>
> Making you be root to download stuff off the internet never seemed
> like a good idea.
>
> mick

Good point, Mick. But then who owns /var/cache/apt?


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[mick crane]

On 2019-04-05 07:46, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 07:37:05AM +0100, mick crane wrote:

[...]


Making you be root to download stuff off the internet never seemed
like a good idea.


And letting "you" (not root) install things in system directories
(/usr/bin et al) seems to be as bad an idea. Remember that little
javascript in your browser made by "Fakebook"? It's running as
you. Do you want it to put its grubby fingers all over your system
dirs?

No, the installer doesn't want root to "download stuff". It wants
root to put things on /usr/bin, /etc and similar places. Actually
it /needs/ root for that, and this seems to be a Good Thing.

If you want to try out alternatives, you could do (kids: don't try
this at home!):

I repeat: **DON'T DO THIS AT HOME!**

  sudo chmod -R ugo+rwX /

DON'T DO THIS!

Enjoy your alternative Unix.

Cheers
-- t


what's the issue with
seeing what's available as you,
checking what you need as root,
downloading as you,
install as root.

mick

--
Key ID4BFEBB31

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[tomas]

On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 07:37:05AM +0100, mick crane wrote:

[...]

> Making you be root to download stuff off the internet never seemed
> like a good idea.

And letting "you" (not root) install things in system directories
(/usr/bin et al) seems to be as bad an idea. Remember that little
javascript in your browser made by "Fakebook"? It's running as
you. Do you want it to put its grubby fingers all over your system
dirs?

No, the installer doesn't want root to "download stuff". It wants
root to put things on /usr/bin, /etc and similar places. Actually
it /needs/ root for that, and this seems to be a Good Thing.

If you want to try out alternatives, you could do (kids: don't try
this at home!):

I repeat: **DON'T DO THIS AT HOME!**

  sudo chmod -R ugo+rwX /

DON'T DO THIS!

Enjoy your alternative Unix.

Cheers
-- t


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[mick crane]

On 2019-04-04 20:57, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 03:46:52PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:

The solution seems simple enough, fix wayland.  This is after all a
multiuser and multitasking OS, why go out of the way, way out of the 
way

to make it work like win-3.0?


The notion of running a client as user X to talk to a display server
running as user Y seems to directly contradict the Wayland security
model.  As far as I can understand it, given the rather vague Wayland
documentation I've seen so far.

I think the "correct" fix for synaptic would be to redesign it to run 
the
graphical interface as you, communicating with an auxiliary process 
that
runs as root which can install and remove packages.  That second 
process

could be a child of synaptic, or an independent daemon of some kind.
Authentication methods to be determined by whomever does the work.

I would not describe this solution as "simple".  Maybe you had a 
different

solution in mind.


Making you be root to download stuff off the internet never seemed like 
a good idea.


mick
--
Key ID4BFEBB31

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Greg Wooledge]

On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 04:15:32PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> I didn't intend to say it was simple. Its also incorrect. Fix one or the 
> other, but I don't expect it to be "simple".  You fix wayland once, or 
> you fix half the os's utilities.

Wayland isn't in need of a "fix", as I understand it.  It's working as
designed.

How many graphical programs does Debian actually have that are intended
to be run as root on a desktop?  It's certainly not "half the os's
utilities".  I'd be surprised if there are as many as ten.

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 04 April 2019 15:57:17 Greg Wooledge wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 03:46:52PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > The solution seems simple enough, fix wayland.  This is after all a
> > multiuser and multitasking OS, why go out of the way, way out of the
> > way to make it work like win-3.0?
>
> The notion of running a client as user X to talk to a display server
> running as user Y seems to directly contradict the Wayland security
> model.  As far as I can understand it, given the rather vague Wayland
> documentation I've seen so far.
>
> I think the "correct" fix for synaptic would be to redesign it to run
> the graphical interface as you, communicating with an auxiliary
> process that runs as root which can install and remove packages.  That
> second process could be a child of synaptic, or an independent daemon
> of some kind. Authentication methods to be determined by whomever does
> the work.
>
> I would not describe this solution as "simple".  Maybe you had a
> different solution in mind.

I didn't intend to say it was simple. Its also incorrect. Fix one or the 
other, but I don't expect it to be "simple".  You fix wayland once, or 
you fix half the os's utilities.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Greg Wooledge]

On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 03:46:52PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> The solution seems simple enough, fix wayland.  This is after all a 
> multiuser and multitasking OS, why go out of the way, way out of the way 
> to make it work like win-3.0?

The notion of running a client as user X to talk to a display server
running as user Y seems to directly contradict the Wayland security
model.  As far as I can understand it, given the rather vague Wayland
documentation I've seen so far.

I think the "correct" fix for synaptic would be to redesign it to run the
graphical interface as you, communicating with an auxiliary process that
runs as root which can install and remove packages.  That second process
could be a child of synaptic, or an independent daemon of some kind.
Authentication methods to be determined by whomever does the work.

I would not describe this solution as "simple".  Maybe you had a different
solution in mind.

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 04 April 2019 13:45:52 Reco wrote:

>   Hi.
>
> On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 06:36:32PM +0100, Joe wrote:
> > On Thu, 4 Apr 2019 16:02:13 +0300
> >
> > Reco  wrote:
> > > On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 09:20:51AM -0300, Francisco M Neto wrote:
> > > > On Thu, 2019-04-04 at 12:33 +0100, Brad Rogers wrote:
> > > > > If it is not, there is nothing preventing it's return to
> > > > > repositories
> > > > >
> > > > > > some time after. It happened with other useful and popular
> > > > > > packages before.
> > > > >
> > > > > Indeed.  Reading the bug report demonstrates that ppl are keen
> > > > > for it to be re-instated.  However, not working properly in
> > > > > Gnome is considered (understandably, IMO) a show-stopper.
> > > >
> > > > What is the problem between Synaptic and Gnome? I've been
> > > > using both without a single hiccup for years...
> > >
> > > The official reason is "'sudo synaptic' does not work with Wayland
> > > session, therefore GNOME users will be confused". Also, comment 50
> > > from #818366.
> >
> > I recall having trouble, twice, with a new Synaptic and its pkexec
> > invocation. I was probably supposed to do something obscure with
> > policykit, but instead I switched the menu entry to gksudo.
>
> ... and in Wayland session it's either policykit or nothing. Thing's
> designed to be single-user only.
> As #818366 shows, synaptic's usage of policykit is 'improper', and
> that's not even counting certain X11 calls (which do not work in
> Wayland for obvious reasons).
>
> In short, Wayland is upon us.
>
> Reco

The solution seems simple enough, fix wayland.  This is after all a 
multiuser and multitasking OS, why go out of the way, way out of the way 
to make it work like win-3.0?

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[tomas]

On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 06:58:20PM +0300, Reco wrote:
[...]

> On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 10:15:40AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:

[...]

> > If thats not plain enough to the people making these descisions, tuff
> > luck.  This stuff gets its users by working, and gnome has not
> > recently demonstrated that.
> 
> Please be careful. There are GNOME users here, at this list. Someone
> might get offended :)

Not a Gnome user here, by a long shot. But still a bit weary of the
negative tone of you both. There are folks there at bug #818366
trying to find a solution -- why not chime in and help out?

This is, you know, a collaborative project.

Cheers
-- t


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Reco]

Hi.

On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 06:36:32PM +0100, Joe wrote:
> On Thu, 4 Apr 2019 16:02:13 +0300
> Reco  wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 09:20:51AM -0300, Francisco M Neto wrote:
> > > On Thu, 2019-04-04 at 12:33 +0100, Brad Rogers wrote:  
> > > > If it is not, there is nothing preventing it's return to
> > > > repositories  
> > > > > some time after. It happened with other useful and popular
> > > > > packages before.  
> > > > 
> > > > Indeed.  Reading the bug report demonstrates that ppl are keen
> > > > for it to be re-instated.  However, not working properly in Gnome
> > > > is considered (understandably, IMO) a show-stopper.  
> > > 
> > >   What is the problem between Synaptic and Gnome? I've been
> > > using both without a single hiccup for years...  
> > 
> > The official reason is "'sudo synaptic' does not work with Wayland
> > session, therefore GNOME users will be confused". Also, comment 50
> > from #818366.
> > 
> I recall having trouble, twice, with a new Synaptic and its pkexec
> invocation. I was probably supposed to do something obscure with
> policykit, but instead I switched the menu entry to gksudo.

... and in Wayland session it's either policykit or nothing. Thing's
designed to be single-user only.
As #818366 shows, synaptic's usage of policykit is 'improper', and
that's not even counting certain X11 calls (which do not work in Wayland
for obvious reasons).

In short, Wayland is upon us.

Reco

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Joe]

On Thu, 4 Apr 2019 16:02:13 +0300
Reco  wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 09:20:51AM -0300, Francisco M Neto wrote:
> > On Thu, 2019-04-04 at 12:33 +0100, Brad Rogers wrote:  
> > > If it is not, there is nothing preventing it's return to
> > > repositories  
> > > > some time after. It happened with other useful and popular
> > > > packages before.  
> > > 
> > > Indeed.  Reading the bug report demonstrates that ppl are keen
> > > for it to be re-instated.  However, not working properly in Gnome
> > > is considered (understandably, IMO) a show-stopper.  
> > 
> > What is the problem between Synaptic and Gnome? I've been
> > using both without a single hiccup for years...  
> 
> The official reason is "'sudo synaptic' does not work with Wayland
> session, therefore GNOME users will be confused". Also, comment 50
> from #818366.
> 
I recall having trouble, twice, with a new Synaptic and its pkexec
invocation. I was probably supposed to do something obscure with
policykit, but instead I switched the menu entry to gksudo.

-- 
Joe

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Reco]

Hi.

On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 10:15:40AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Thursday 04 April 2019 09:02:13 Reco wrote:
> > The *unofficial* one is the existence of "gnome-packagekit". The thing
> > needs users, and this is one of the ways of getting them.
> 
> I frankly don't care if it needs users. To get users, it has to work.

Quite the contrary. To get users it just needs to be written by a
certain company. Three-letter acronym company, to be specific.


> If it doesn't work at least as well as synaptic, it will never get the 
> users.

"gnome-packagekit" touts itself as a "Graphical distribution neutral
package manager for GNOME". There are other distributions where users
don't have the alternative.
But once again, Debian project choose to follow so called "industry
leaders".


> If thats not plain enough to the people making these descisions, tuff
> luck.  This stuff gets its users by working, and gnome has not
> recently demonstrated that.

Please be careful. There are GNOME users here, at this list. Someone
might get offended :)


> All I've seen in stretch is a roadblock to getting anything useful
> done.

This one is for the buster users. Stretch isn't affected.

Reco

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[David]

On Thu, 4 Apr 2019 at 23:21, Curt  wrote:
> On 2019-04-04, David  wrote:

> > People accustomed to using synaptic might want to begin considering
> > alternative tools, because synaptic has been removed from buster.

> Owlett's gonna be pissed.

On Thu, 4 Apr 2019 at 00:26, Richard Owlett  wrote:

> At this point, the same cognoscenti who bemoan Linux lacking market
> penetration tell him to go read some techie manuals and perform arcane
> incantations. As true ostriches they insist the problem is "operator error".

Ok, let's avoid arcane incantations then ...

Maybe it's time to try Ubuntu, they do a MATE version. [1]
Abandon the ostriches and embrace the market-penetrating Bionic Beaver.

[1] https://ubuntu-mate.org/download/

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 04 April 2019 09:02:13 Reco wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 09:20:51AM -0300, Francisco M Neto wrote:
> > On Thu, 2019-04-04 at 12:33 +0100, Brad Rogers wrote:
> > > If it is not, there is nothing preventing it's return to
> > > repositories
> > >
> > > > some time after. It happened with other useful and popular
> > > > packages before.
> > >
> > > Indeed.  Reading the bug report demonstrates that ppl are keen for
> > > it to be re-instated.  However, not working properly in Gnome is
> > > considered (understandably, IMO) a show-stopper.
> >
> > What is the problem between Synaptic and Gnome? I've been using
> > both without a single hiccup for years...
>
> The official reason is "'sudo synaptic' does not work with Wayland
> session, therefore GNOME users will be confused". Also, comment 50
> from #818366.
>
> The *unofficial* one is the existence of "gnome-packagekit". The thing
> needs users, and this is one of the ways of getting them.
>
> Reco

I frankly don't care if it needs users. To get users, it has to work. If 
it doesn't work at least as well as synaptic, it will never get the 
users. If thats not plain enough to the people making these descisions, 
tuff luck.  This stuff gets its users by working, and gnome has not 
recently demonstrated that. All I've seen in stretch is a roadblock to 
getting anything useful done.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Brad Rogers]

On Thu, 04 Apr 2019 09:20:51 -0300
Francisco M Neto  wrote:

Hello Francisco,

>   What is the problem between Synaptic and Gnome? I've been using

To add to what Curt and Reco have said:  Running Synaptic using a
Wayland/Gnome combo,by clicking on an icon, it doesn't start.  Not very
helpful, I think you'll agree. Especially for software that's aimed
squarely at GUI users.  Started from a shell an error is, however,
reported.  It's unfortunate that, as yet, a remedy has not been
forthcoming.

I would hope that if somebody does come up with a fix, Synaptic would be
reintroduced to Buster quickly.

Of course, anybody that already has Synaptic installed won't lose it,
it'll simply be marked as 'local/obsolete'.  Only if/when its remaining
installed causes a conflict somewhere, will Synaptic be considered for
removal.

Full bug report thread starts here:
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=818366
It's not overly long, nor too technical - by which I mean: *I* understood
it, so it can't be that hard.   :-)

-- 
 Regards  _
 / )   "The blindingly obvious is
/ _)radnever immediately apparent"
White people going to school, where they teach you to be thick
White Riot - The Clash


pgpdHQWU56uYl.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Reco]

On Thu, Apr 04, 2019 at 09:20:51AM -0300, Francisco M Neto wrote:
> On Thu, 2019-04-04 at 12:33 +0100, Brad Rogers wrote:
> > If it is not, there is nothing preventing it's return to repositories
> > > some time after. It happened with other useful and popular packages
> > > before.
> > 
> > Indeed.  Reading the bug report demonstrates that ppl are keen for it to
> > be re-instated.  However, not working properly in Gnome is considered
> > (understandably, IMO) a show-stopper.
> 
>   What is the problem between Synaptic and Gnome? I've been using both
> without a single hiccup for years...

The official reason is "'sudo synaptic' does not work with Wayland
session, therefore GNOME users will be confused". Also, comment 50 from
#818366.

The *unofficial* one is the existence of "gnome-packagekit". The thing
needs users, and this is one of the ways of getting them.

Reco

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 04 April 2019 07:33:13 Brad Rogers wrote:

> On Thu, 4 Apr 2019 15:58:33 +0500
> "Alexander V. Makartsev"  wrote:
>
> Hello Alexander,
>
> >Considering the date, it must be an April Fool's joke.
>
> It's not.
>
> >If it is not, there is nothing preventing it's return to repositories
> >some time after. It happened with other useful and popular packages
> >before.
>
> Indeed.  Reading the bug report demonstrates that ppl are keen for it
> to be re-instated.  However, not working properly in Gnome is
> considered (understandably, IMO) a show-stopper.

For gnome maybe.I can't nuke that paranoid POS quick enough.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Curt]

On 2019-04-04, Francisco M Neto  wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, 2019-04-04 at 12:33 +0100, Brad Rogers wrote:
>> If it is not, there is nothing preventing it's return to repositories
>> > some time after. It happened with other useful and popular packages
>> > before.
>>=20
>> Indeed.  Reading the bug report demonstrates that ppl are keen for it to
>> be re-instated.  However, not working properly in Gnome is considered
>> (understandably, IMO) a show-stopper.
>
>   What is the problem between Synaptic and Gnome? I've been using both
> without a single hiccup for years...
>

My understanding is the problem lies in the Gnome/Wayland combo (which
is the default combo starting with Buster).

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Gene Heskett]

On Thursday 04 April 2019 06:52:35 David wrote:

> People accustomed to using synaptic might want to begin considering
> alternative tools, because synaptic has been removed from buster.
>
> More info:
> https://tracker.debian.org/news/1037065/synaptic-removed-from-testing/
> https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/synaptic
> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=818366#55
> https://release.debian.org/buster/freeze_policy.html
> https://www.reddit.com/r/debian/comments/b7ylny/synaptic_no_longer_in_
>buster_should_i_start/

We need tar, hot tar, and feathers, lots of them.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Francisco M Neto]

On Thu, 2019-04-04 at 12:33 +0100, Brad Rogers wrote:
> If it is not, there is nothing preventing it's return to repositories
> > some time after. It happened with other useful and popular packages
> > before.
> 
> Indeed.  Reading the bug report demonstrates that ppl are keen for it to
> be re-instated.  However, not working properly in Gnome is considered
> (understandably, IMO) a show-stopper.

What is the problem between Synaptic and Gnome? I've been using both
without a single hiccup for years...

--Francisco


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Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Curt]

On 2019-04-04, David  wrote:
> People accustomed to using synaptic might want to begin considering
> alternative tools, because synaptic has been removed from buster.
>
> More info:
> https://tracker.debian.org/news/1037065/synaptic-removed-from-testing/
> https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/synaptic
> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=818366#55
> https://release.debian.org/buster/freeze_policy.html
> https://www.reddit.com/r/debian/comments/b7ylny/synaptic_no_longer_in_buster_should_i_start/
>
>

Owlett's gonna be pissed.

Synaptic doesn't play nice with the Wayland protocol, Gnome desktop with
Wayland is the new default desktop/login mode in Buster, so Synaptic's out? 

Lots of veteran newbies will be seriously discombobulated if they don't have 
their Synaptic, I'd guess.

https://wiki.debian.org/Wayland

Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Brad Rogers]

On Thu, 4 Apr 2019 15:58:33 +0500
"Alexander V. Makartsev"  wrote:

Hello Alexander,

>Considering the date, it must be an April Fool's joke.

It's not.

>If it is not, there is nothing preventing it's return to repositories
>some time after. It happened with other useful and popular packages
>before.

Indeed.  Reading the bug report demonstrates that ppl are keen for it to
be re-instated.  However, not working properly in Gnome is considered
(understandably, IMO) a show-stopper.

-- 
 Regards  _
 / )   "The blindingly obvious is
/ _)radnever immediately apparent"
It's not your heart, it's your bank I want to break
It's Yer Money - Wonder Stuff


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Re: 'synaptic' removed from buster

[Alexander V. Makartsev]

On 04.04.2019 15:52, David wrote:
> People accustomed to using synaptic might want to begin considering
> alternative tools, because synaptic has been removed from buster.
>
> More info:
> https://tracker.debian.org/news/1037065/synaptic-removed-from-testing/
> https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/synaptic
> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=818366#55
> https://release.debian.org/buster/freeze_policy.html
> https://www.reddit.com/r/debian/comments/b7ylny/synaptic_no_longer_in_buster_should_i_start/
>
Considering the date, it must be an April Fool's joke.
If it is not, there is nothing preventing it's return to repositories
some time after. It happened with other useful and popular packages before.

-- 
With kindest regards, Alexander.

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