Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
On Monday 10 November 2003 10:24 pm, Tom wrote: On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 11:11:04PM -0500, Vikki Roemer wrote: Paying the occasional sysadmin bill might well come out to less than what these people spend on the software itself now. People cost a ton -- $100g + 30% for benefits. I use round numbers: in my 9 years since college, the average joe has gone from expecting roughly $45K, then to $60K, now kids out of school expect $75K. Really? I don't know where you're from, but computer jobs (of any kind) are basically paying absolute shit right now. You'll be damn lucky to make $50k these days as an experienced admin, let alone someone green out of college. Hell, you'd be lucky to find a steady job at all, most are contract crap for six moths or less. Don't know about programming jobs, but that seems even worse. There are some 75k+ jobs, but they're hard to find and positions don't come up often. I know it sucks, but you really can make a case for replacing people with dumb software -- people are amazingly expensive to maintain :-) Microsoft, for all their bad qualities, has at least done one good thing: they've proven that this simlpy cannot be done. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
On Sat, Nov 15, 2003 at 12:41:17PM -0600, Tim Kelley wrote: On Monday 10 November 2003 10:24 pm, Tom wrote: On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 11:11:04PM -0500, Vikki Roemer wrote: Paying the occasional sysadmin bill might well come out to less than what these people spend on the software itself now. People cost a ton -- $100g + 30% for benefits. I use round numbers: in my 9 years since college, the average joe has gone from expecting roughly $45K, then to $60K, now kids out of school expect $75K. Really? I don't know where you're from, but computer jobs (of any kind) are basically paying absolute shit right now. You'll be damn lucky to make $50k these days as an experienced admin, let alone someone green out of college. Hell, you'd be lucky to find a steady job at all, most Computer jobs divide up into Infastructure and Developer. Admin falls into the Infrastructure category and it never paid as well. On Windows they call them Reboot monkeys. Unix Admin used to pay well but that is going out the window. There are higher species of Infrastructure -- folks who plan networks, vs. folks who merely operate them. I know that will not be well received as most people here are Admins but it is true. I'm a Developer -- even though I started with VB and Access and while I know C well I am not very effective with it -- businesses find what I do useful enough to the point that all my peer groups makes $100K now. (I consider myself a good developer but not extrordinary: there are so many smart people.) Actually the average is closer to $120K now; and it's rapidly approaching $150K for the high achievers. Stop adminning if you want the big bucks. I know I sound like an arrogant asshole (and I am) but I am merely relating the facts: it doesn't pay as well. are contract crap for six moths or less. Don't know about programming jobs, but that seems even worse. There are some 75k+ jobs, but they're hard to find and positions don't come up often. I know it sucks, but you really can make a case for replacing people with dumb software -- people are amazingly expensive to maintain :-) Microsoft, for all their bad qualities, has at least done one good thing: they've proven that this simlpy cannot be done. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Salaries (was Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers)
On Sat, 2003-11-15 at 15:01, Tom wrote: On Sat, Nov 15, 2003 at 12:41:17PM -0600, Tim Kelley wrote: On Monday 10 November 2003 10:24 pm, Tom wrote: On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 11:11:04PM -0500, Vikki Roemer wrote: [snip] I'm a Developer -- even though I started with VB and Access and while I know C well I am not very effective with it -- businesses find what I do useful enough to the point that all my peer groups makes $100K now. (I consider myself a good developer but not extrordinary: there are so many smart people.) Actually the average is closer to $120K now; and it's rapidly approaching $150K for the high achievers. $120,000/year for a VB developer?? -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jefferson, LA USA I'm not a vegetarian because I love animals, I'm a vegetarian because I hate vegetables! unknown -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Salaries (was Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers)
On Sat, Nov 15, 2003 at 03:26:49PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: On Sat, 2003-11-15 at 15:01, Tom wrote: On Sat, Nov 15, 2003 at 12:41:17PM -0600, Tim Kelley wrote: On Monday 10 November 2003 10:24 pm, Tom wrote: On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 11:11:04PM -0500, Vikki Roemer wrote: [snip] I'm a Developer -- even though I started with VB and Access and while I know C well I am not very effective with it -- businesses find what I do useful enough to the point that all my peer groups makes $100K now. (I consider myself a good developer but not extrordinary: there are so many smart people.) Actually the average is closer to $120K now; and it's rapidly approaching $150K for the high achievers. $120,000/year for a VB developer?? I'm not a VB developer any more: that was me from 1993-1996. I graduated :-) You can write an O(n) + C in wordperfect macro language if you have to: the C will be gigantically enormous but the hardware guys can fix that. As long as it's O(n), it makes money. My last few jobs have been writing ISAPI extensions, ATL, server-side thread pools using I/O Completion ports. My clients have been Sybase, Morgan Stanley, Roguewave, Netflix, the Gap, Siebel: trust me, I'm no lightweight. But I'm no superman nor can I write device drivers or an operating system: ironically those guys seem *not* to make as much money either, even though it's much harder. It just doesn't bring in the big bucks. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 03:50:40PM +, Pigeon wrote: On Tue, Nov 11, 2003 at 09:25:19PM -0800, Paul Johnson wrote: On Tue, Nov 11, 2003 at 08:33:02PM +, Pigeon wrote: (c) running costs for the sort of vehicle that gets you from A to B legally but no more $150, tops, and that's if you're as hard on a bike as I am I just broke the frame on mine... Wow...call it a loss and keep the best parts for your next bike. - -- .''`. Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' : `. `'` proud Debian admin and user `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/tYgOUzgNqloQMwcRAmH5AJ4/FTvYGKP8mD9G0AE/DXYmCJU4twCfSZtn 2IhNt4NaSkFquSleE0NKyss= =+tMK -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
On Tue, Nov 11, 2003 at 09:25:19PM -0800, Paul Johnson wrote: On Tue, Nov 11, 2003 at 08:33:02PM +, Pigeon wrote: (c) running costs for the sort of vehicle that gets you from A to B legally but no more $150, tops, and that's if you're as hard on a bike as I am I just broke the frame on mine... -- Pigeon Be kind to pigeons Get my GPG key here: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x21C61F7F pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 23:11:04 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Vikki Roemer) wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Wed, Nov 05, 2003 at 08:31:08PM -0500, ScruLoose wrote: We're all here because we know that Windows achieves easy at the expense of being hopelessly insecure and often broken. Maybe it's time to start offering another choice to people who are fed up with Windows but not ready to install/configure/admin a *nix machine. Paying the occasional sysadmin bill might well come out to less than what these people spend on the software itself now. Thanks for that suggestion, that's a really great idea. I'm starting up a computer/software company selling custom-coloured Linux computers (it'll be officially started up in early to mid-'04), and I just realized that I could offer a service to remotely administer computers for people who don't know and don't want to know about administering. Thanks for that post. :) ..oh, daring. You oughtta come up with a policy on how you wanna sysadmin or coach your clientele, and upfront. Good luck! ;-) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 08:24:14PM -0800, Tom wrote: On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 11:11:04PM -0500, Vikki Roemer wrote: Paying the occasional sysadmin bill might well come out to less than what these people spend on the software itself now. People cost a ton -- $100g + 30% for benefits. I use round numbers: in my 9 years since college, the average joe has gone from expecting roughly $45K, then to $60K, now kids out of school expect $75K. Request for context: approximately how much would the kids out of school expect to pay out in (a) tax (b) rent etc (c) running costs for the sort of vehicle that gets you from A to B legally but no more (d) a week's food? -- Pigeon Be kind to pigeons Get my GPG key here: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x21C61F7F pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
On Tue, Nov 11, 2003 at 08:33:02PM +, Pigeon wrote: On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 08:24:14PM -0800, Tom wrote: On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 11:11:04PM -0500, Vikki Roemer wrote: Paying the occasional sysadmin bill might well come out to less than what these people spend on the software itself now. People cost a ton -- $100g + 30% for benefits. I use round numbers: in my 9 years since college, the average joe has gone from expecting roughly $45K, then to $60K, now kids out of school expect $75K. Request for context: approximately how much would the kids out of school expect to pay out in (a) tax (b) rent etc (c) running costs for the sort of vehicle that gets you from A to B legally but no more (d) a week's food? Touché. In mathematics this is known as normalizing units: if you add up the total amount of wealth on the planet, and divide the cost or value of anything by that, is the only way to get an accurate number. For instance, in normalized units, J.P. Morgan and Vanderbuilt both had a much larger percentage of the world's wealth than Bill Gates. I have a feeling that in normalized units the relative costs and salaries of things is (on a global scale) identical now and in Roman Times. Sure there are local perturbations The system is kind of organic, however: on the course we were on in the late 90's, eventually the average joe would get $1 million/year and a can of coke would cost $10. Things like wars follow events like that. Flame on :-) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Tue, Nov 11, 2003 at 08:33:02PM +, Pigeon wrote: (c) running costs for the sort of vehicle that gets you from A to B legally but no more $150, tops, and that's if you're as hard on a bike as I am - -- .''`. Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' : `. `'` proud Debian admin and user `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/scQ/UzgNqloQMwcRAvLEAJ9Ibox5Uh/07clHDDzU0gnJMO6sCACgoIaU fe2tduc/1dFwWAG4yXh6pqY= =rhu7 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
On Sunday 09 November 2003 03:48, Karsten M. Self wrote: See: http://twiki.iwethey.org/Main/FreeSoftwarePrimer Both standards *and* free software matter. Nice link - thanks. I've been looking for something like this but I didn't know how to ask for it. I've read some things on the list and can't wait to read through the others. I hope to be enlightened concerning open software economics. For example, borrowing a topic from a thread that was forked from this thread - gaming. The conclusions I draw with my current understanding of economics and technology are that native-Linux gaming will not thrive until there is a standard Linux gaming system configuration and if that happens, some good games will be closed-source-not-free-as-in-beer. The OSS community values diversity and adapts to it. Commercial concerns are learning how to do this and hopefully they will not wreck the community of individuals as they stumble around. I doubt that the set of useful closed source software will empty for quite a while. I believe that closed source software native to an OSS environment is economically necessary and it increases the value of the OSS environment despite its potential and hidden evils. BTW, more on-topic, IBM, in a not too surprising turn of events, says Linux on the desktop makes sense in lots of situations. IBM undertands that most people only read or listen to headlines. RH, hopefully now understands this important fact of PR. http://news.com.com/2100-7344_3-5104650.html?tag=nefd_top -- Mike Mueller 324881 (08/20/2003) Make clockwise circles with your right foot. Now use your right hand to draw the number 6 in the air. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
On Wed, Nov 05, 2003 at 08:31:08PM -0500, ScruLoose wrote: We're all here because we know that Windows achieves easy at the expense of being hopelessly insecure and often broken. Maybe it's time to start offering another choice to people who are fed up with Windows but not ready to install/configure/admin a *nix machine. Paying the occasional sysadmin bill might well come out to less than what these people spend on the software itself now. Thanks for that suggestion, that's a really great idea. I'm starting up a computer/software company selling custom-coloured Linux computers (it'll be officially started up in early to mid-'04), and I just realized that I could offer a service to remotely administer computers for people who don't know and don't want to know about administering. Thanks for that post. :) -- Vikki RoemerHomepage: http://neuromancer.homelinux.com/ Registered Linux user #280021 http://counter.li.org/ Hurewitz's Memory Principle: The chance of forgetting something is directly proportional to . to uh .. PGP fingerprint: 0A3E 0AE4 CCD9 FF31 B4BB C859 2DE1 B1D8 5CE0 1578 Keyserver: http://pgp.mit.edu/ -BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK- Version: 3.12 GAT d-(?) s: a18 C(++) UL P+ L+++ E W++ N+ o? K- w--() O? M? V?(-) PS+(+++) PE(++) Y+ PGP++ t+@ 5 X-() R*(?) tv-- b+++(++) DI+ D--(?) G e-(*)+ h! r x+ --END GEEK CODE BLOCK-- pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 11:11:04PM -0500, Vikki Roemer wrote: Paying the occasional sysadmin bill might well come out to less than what these people spend on the software itself now. People cost a ton -- $100g + 30% for benefits. I use round numbers: in my 9 years since college, the average joe has gone from expecting roughly $45K, then to $60K, now kids out of school expect $75K. I know it sucks, but you really can make a case for replacing people with dumb software -- people are amazingly expensive to maintain :-) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 20:24:14 -0800 Tom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Nov 10, 2003 at 11:11:04PM -0500, Vikki Roemer wrote: Paying the occasional sysadmin bill might well come out to less than what these people spend on the software itself now. People cost a ton -- $100g + 30% for benefits. I use round numbers: in my 9 years since college, the average joe has gone from expecting roughly $45K, then to $60K, now kids out of school expect $75K. I know it sucks, but you really can make a case for replacing people with dumb software -- people are amazingly expensive to maintain :-) That's if you can get a person that has sufficient quality to maintain in the first place. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
on Sat, Nov 08, 2003 at 04:27:42PM +1300, cr ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 07:27, Ron Johnson wrote: On Fri, 2003-11-07 at 11:45, Jonathan Dowland wrote: On Fri, Nov 07, 2003 at 11:01:58AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: As in proprietary, closed-source apps? Well, that depends on if you see them as a problem, or something that you prefer not to use. I prefer not to use proprietary, closed-source apps, but, when necessary, will pay for them, and use them, even on Debian. Personally I haven't really made my mind up about prioprietry apps, and whether RMS is right or not. However, the success of Linux is widely attributed to the open-source development model, so I can't really see the future of Linux throwing it away. I'm all for the open-source development model. However, we must respect that some companies want to keep their source closed, and still sell to the Linux market. (snip) Personally, I think the battle should be about open *standards*.I think Open Source is good, but I quite happily use as my preferred browser, Opera (which I'm pretty sure isn't Open Source), in preference to Konq or Galeon. Just a matter of personal preference. What I won't tolerate (when I have any say in the matter) is proprietary standards whereby one company tries to establish a monopoly (and yes I do mean Microsoft).Anybody sends me a Word doc is likely to be asked to send it again in some open format.I don't care that Open Office can read it (though I rather welcome the existence of OO - anything that helps to undermine the Evil Empire can't be bad :) See: http://twiki.iwethey.org/Main/FreeSoftwarePrimer Both standards *and* free software matter. Without open standards, it's very difficult to write good code. Case in point: WINE, which is attempting to implemement a standard that's both closed and constantly in flux. Contrast to the webserver space in which the standard is not only open, but overwhelmingly dominated by free software. Without free software, open standards drift over time (are embraced and extended), and become fragmented and non-free. Witness the UNIX wars and various SQL implementations. (little known fact: Project ORACLE was a defense data management project in the 1970s which grew into a largish proprietary enterprise applications vendor headquartered at Redwood Shores. If I've got my stories straight. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/05/20/MN209661.DTL http://www.kean.edu/~rpadua/WEBPOSTER.HTML http://dc.internet.com/news/article.php/996741 http://www.orafaq.org/faqora.htm Peace. -- Karsten M. Self [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What Part of Gestalt don't you understand? Backgrounder on the Caldera/SCO vs. IBM and Linux dispute. http://sco.iwethey.org/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
PCMCIA module for LinkSys card on my laptop (2.4.22-ac4 kernel) and modules that can _not_ be un-loaded (like smbfs mount if you disconnect :-) ) made me reboot too - but - my understanding is that in 2.6x kernel you can force to unload kernel modules. Cheers, Florentin. On Thu, 6 Nov 2003, Ron Johnson wrote : » Date: Thu, 06 Nov 2003 20:22:55 -0600 » From: Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] » To: Debian-User [EMAIL PROTECTED] » Subject: Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers » Resent-Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 20:23:00 -0600 (CST) » Resent-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] » » On Thu, 2003-11-06 at 20:09, Paul Johnson wrote: » -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- » Hash: SHA1 » » On Thu, Nov 06, 2003 at 08:27:22PM +0100, Wolfgang Pfeiffer wrote: » OTOH: Yesterday I was told by Linux folks that the sound problems on » Linux that I have from time to time might need a simple restart of the » system. Which was a surprise for me as I thought this sort of fix » is something I had left behind after moving to Linux ... » » The only times you need to reboot that I've experienced: 1) New kernel » you wanna try out. 2) Physical flaw in the hardware or internal » hardware needing a power cycle. 3) Power failure. » » Don't forget: » kernel bug » » -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
On Fri, 2003-11-07 at 13:02, BruceG wrote: My experience with the wonderful world of Linux and end users - or normal people. My sister needed a laptop to help her start a new business writing grant proposals. I figured I'd help by buying her a laptop (used, but still good, a Dell Latitude PIII, 256Meg RAM, 12 Gig hard disk, CD-RW, external floppy, Xircom 10/100+56 card. I tested Mandrake 9.1, SuSE 8.2 Personal and Knoppix installed to harddisk. Decided to ship it with SuSE with all updates done, and with OOo 1.1.0 and Scribus 1.0.1. Paid for Internet access, and configured dial on demand. Also configured KMail,Evolution, Mozilla Mail and KNode. She called today. Had a problem with it (trouble-shooting was turn it upside down and shake it). Brought it to computer repair shop. He installed non-licensed Windows and MS Office. I'm discouraged. It truely was 'point 'n click'. Everything was installed, tested and working. Literally plug it in, turn it on, connect the included phone cord and your online. Just click the Seagull and you have a choice of OOo1.0.2 or OOo1.1.0. Think I want my SuSE 8.2 Personal boxed set, SuSE Live Eval CD, and boot floppy back! But on the good side, my 7 year old son and 14 year old son are perfectly comfortable with SuSE, Mandrake and RedHat. Maybe Debian in a while. That's damn shame. Rather than actually trying to fix the problem, he went with the Format, Reinstall approach. Exactly what I'd expect from 99% of so-called 'technicians'. About six months ago, my parents got fed up with Windows 2000, and asked me to reinstall. I had my Debian box up to do some programming work, so I demo'd them that, and had them interested enough to change over. After some lengthy downloading on their 56K modem, I had a functioning Debian (Unstable/KDE) install. It's been six months, and to quote my father 'It just works.' Multizone DVDs, VCDs, DivX, Quicktime, and Realplayer movies, something that's always been a source of much frustration under Windows, now 'just work'. The only thing's that are annoying are a lack of a decent Access replacement for my father (The various free SQL servers are excellent, but I have yet to find a decent front end GUI for them), and my brother has got my sister using Photoshop instead of the Gimp for my sister graphics stuff. Grrr. The fact that they're 400km is not a problem. I have an IRC channel that I monitor. Starting Xchat from one of the user profiles will automatically log them in, and the rest is done by SSH. If everything goes to hell, they can run wvdial from the console, and ring me on my cellphone with the IP (hasn't happened yet). One of the issues I've hit, that's already been pointed out, is the unwillingness of people to learn a new interface or program. My brother already knows Photoshop, so he is/was unwilling to learn The Gimp. In the cases where the FOSS software is not up to scratch - such as Access as a Click'n'Drool interface, this is acceptable, when it comes to things like Photoshop, where equivalent tools are available, it undermines the whole effort. I have nothing against closed source software, but I have a large problem with software that only runs on closed operating systems, because it's so damn hard to emulate the underlying OS properly. My advice when switching people over is to avoid all non-native software as much as possible - unless there is absolutely no alternative. - Edward -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
On Saturday 08 November 2003 17:49, Edward Murrell wrote: Click'n'Drool interface I just can't stop chuckling. -- Mike Mueller 324881 (08/20/2003) Make clockwise circles with your right foot. Now use your right hand to draw the number 6 in the air. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
On Thu, Nov 06, 2003 at 04:52:29PM -0700, David Millet wrote: Or not until wine begins running these and every windoze app that everyone uses flawlessly, which hopefully happens soon. david No! Emulating proprietry software is not the future for an open source operating system. -- Jon Dowland http://jon.dowland.name/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
On Thu, 6 Nov 2003, Paul Johnson wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, Nov 06, 2003 at 08:27:22PM +0100, Wolfgang Pfeiffer wrote: OTOH: Yesterday I was told by Linux folks that the sound problems on Linux that I have from time to time might need a simple restart of the system. Which was a surprise for me as I thought this sort of fix is something I had left behind after moving to Linux ... The only times you need to reboot that I've experienced: 1) New kernel you wanna try out. 2) Physical flaw in the hardware or internal hardware needing a power cycle. 3) Power failure. That's what I had thought so far; and I still want to believe that. But the folks suggesting to reboot know much more on Linux than I do. Or that's at least what I had thought until now .. :) Next time my sound is screwed up I'll come here and let you know. Promise .. :) And if I find a solution in the meantime, without the need to reboot the system, I'll send a message to this list. Promise, again ... :) As I wrote: I don't want to believe I have to reboot Linux for, as it seems to me, a lousy sound problem. Till then ... Best Regards, Wolfgang -- Profile, Links: http://profiles.yahoo.com/wolfgangpfeiffer -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
On Fri, 2003-11-07 at 05:46, Jonathan Dowland wrote: On Thu, Nov 06, 2003 at 04:52:29PM -0700, David Millet wrote: Or not until wine begins running these and every windoze app that everyone uses flawlessly, which hopefully happens soon. david No! Emulating proprietry software is not the future for an open source operating system. Unfortunately, it is until the Broderbunds and KnowledgeAdventures and Adobes and Quarks and Intuits and Uleads and Macromedias and Autodesks and FileMakers and all the other little and small s/w houses start making native Linux s/w. And, yes, that leads to the question, why should we make a native Linux version, if it works under Wine? To which I say, If you build a Linux version using winelib, and support it officially, I don't mind. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jefferson, LA USA Democracy is woman's greatest invention. Indeed, it even reflects her character: purposeless, irrational, subject to public opinion and passing fashions, rambling, confused, underhanded, scheming, in love with its own purity. Unknown -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
On Thu, 6 Nov 2003, Mike Mueller wrote: On Thursday 06 November 2003 14:27, Wolfgang Pfeiffer wrote: So, yes: It seems it makes some sense what the RedHat chief executive said. If your brother or sister starts a new venture, you wouldn't use the local newspaper to say that their venture is immature and folks should check back in a few years. That makes sense and it's true, but if you did, your brother or sister would be terribly hurt and angry. (I use you in the general sense and not in the directly personal sense.) Agreed, at least if I connect your point to the one I'll try to explain below. I'm working hard to create a widget that runs on Linux. Others are doing the same. We don't need Mr RH CEO working with Bill and Darryl to tarnish the reputation of good software because it changes their world. An excerpt from what the RedHat CEO said --- I would say that for the consumer market place, Windows probably continues to be the right product line, he said. I would argue that from the device-driver standpoint and perhaps some of the other traditional functionality, for that classic consumer purchaser, it is my view that (Linux) technology needs to mature a little bit more. __ needs to mature a little bit more ?? This point at least seems to me being unfair against the Linux coders: How can they write the device drivers for hardware parts, if they don't have the specs for the stuff? So the fact a home user might run into problems when trying to hook up a device to a Linux machine, and then finding it doesn't work, has much more to do with the copyright policy (or whatever it is) of companies producing that hardware. Or that's at least what it seems to me. And I'm still hoping the RedHat CEO will talk about that fact, too. In public. Best Regards, Wolfgang -- Profile, Links: http://profiles.yahoo.com/wolfgangpfeiffer -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
On Fri, Nov 07, 2003 at 07:32:41AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: On Fri, 2003-11-07 at 05:46, Jonathan Dowland wrote: On Thu, Nov 06, 2003 at 04:52:29PM -0700, David Millet wrote: Or not until wine begins running these and every windoze app that everyone uses flawlessly, which hopefully happens soon. david No! Emulating proprietry software is not the future for an open source operating system. Unfortunately, it is until the Broderbunds and KnowledgeAdventures and Adobes and Quarks and Intuits and Uleads and Macromedias and Autodesks and FileMakers and all the other little and small s/w houses start making native Linux s/w. That would solve the emulation problem but not the proprietry problem. -- Jon Dowland http://jon.dowland.name/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
On Fri, 2003-11-07 at 09:26, Jonathan Dowland wrote: On Fri, Nov 07, 2003 at 07:32:41AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: On Fri, 2003-11-07 at 05:46, Jonathan Dowland wrote: On Thu, Nov 06, 2003 at 04:52:29PM -0700, David Millet wrote: Or not until wine begins running these and every windoze app that everyone uses flawlessly, which hopefully happens soon. david No! Emulating proprietry software is not the future for an open source operating system. Unfortunately, it is until the Broderbunds and KnowledgeAdventures and Adobes and Quarks and Intuits and Uleads and Macromedias and Autodesks and FileMakers and all the other little and small s/w houses start making native Linux s/w. That would solve the emulation problem but not the proprietry problem. As in proprietary, closed-source apps? Well, that depends on if you see them as a problem, or something that you prefer not to use. I prefer not to use proprietary, closed-source apps, but, when necessary, will pay for them, and use them, even on Debian. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jefferson, LA USA As the night fall does not come at once, neither does oppression. It is in such twilight that we must all be aware of change in the air - however slight - lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness. Justice William O. Douglas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
On Fri, Nov 07, 2003 at 11:01:58AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: As in proprietary, closed-source apps? Well, that depends on if you see them as a problem, or something that you prefer not to use. I prefer not to use proprietary, closed-source apps, but, when necessary, will pay for them, and use them, even on Debian. Personally I haven't really made my mind up about prioprietry apps, and whether RMS is right or not. However, the success of Linux is widely attributed to the open-source development model, so I can't really see the future of Linux throwing it away. -- Jon Dowland http://jon.dowland.name/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
On Fri, 2003-11-07 at 11:45, Jonathan Dowland wrote: On Fri, Nov 07, 2003 at 11:01:58AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: As in proprietary, closed-source apps? Well, that depends on if you see them as a problem, or something that you prefer not to use. I prefer not to use proprietary, closed-source apps, but, when necessary, will pay for them, and use them, even on Debian. Personally I haven't really made my mind up about prioprietry apps, and whether RMS is right or not. However, the success of Linux is widely attributed to the open-source development model, so I can't really see the future of Linux throwing it away. I'm all for the open-source development model. However, we must respect that some companies want to keep their source closed, and still sell to the Linux market. For example, as good as PostgreSQL is, there are many places where it doesn't have the needed oomph or feature set that companies need. Thus, Oracle, IBM (with DB/2 Informix) Sybase meet the need. On the other end of the scale, there are, as far as I know, no OSS packages comparable to Reader Rabbit or Calendar Creator or Act! or EndNote or Quark. Some are ok, but in many cases, nothing is out there in the OSS world. The standard OSS business model is the program+source is free, and we make money selling support. However, the bottom line is that there just is no market for supporting consumer-grade apps like Reader Rabbit and Calendar Creator, or even SOHO apps like Act! and EndNote. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jefferson, LA USA What other evidence do you have that they are terrorists, other than that they trained in these camps? 17-Sep-2002 Katie Couric to an FBI agent regarding the 5 men arrested near Buffalo NY -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
On Thu, 2003-11-06 at 17:52, David Millet wrote: all I have to say is that I personally want linux to rule the desktop, simply because I will stand to make alot of money when big companies start picking it up. a lot of us will, in fact. i'm extremely confident that it will rule the desktop market, because of the speed at which the desktops have improved, which i have been lucky to observe during the past year i've been doing the linux thing. i've seen major improvements, unlike how windows upgrades their operating systems these days. i use winXP at work and haven't seen yet too much of an improvement from win2000. i agree with that guy from red hat. give kde, gnome, etc a few more years to mature and it will be night-night time for the M$ monopoly. Not until Broderbund releases a Calendar Creator that works with Linux. Ditto for Reader Rabbit, Math Blaster, etc, etc, ad nauseum. Or not until wine begins running these and every windoze app that everyone uses flawlessly, which hopefully happens soon. david As much as I like Wine, and use it myself for some products, I fear that the wine project may do to linux what win-os/2 did for os/2. If your system will run win32 apps, what insentive do companies have to develop native programs for you. nick -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
On Fri, 2003-11-07 at 13:20, techlists wrote: On Thu, 2003-11-06 at 17:52, David Millet wrote: all I have to say is that I personally want linux to rule the desktop, simply because I will stand to make alot of money when big companies start picking it up. a lot of us will, in fact. i'm extremely confident that it will rule the desktop market, because of the speed at which the desktops have improved, which i have been lucky to observe during the past year i've been doing the linux thing. i've seen major improvements, unlike how windows upgrades their operating systems these days. i use winXP at work and haven't seen yet too much of an improvement from win2000. i agree with that guy from red hat. give kde, gnome, etc a few more years to mature and it will be night-night time for the M$ monopoly. Not until Broderbund releases a Calendar Creator that works with Linux. Ditto for Reader Rabbit, Math Blaster, etc, etc, ad nauseum. Or not until wine begins running these and every windoze app that everyone uses flawlessly, which hopefully happens soon. david As much as I like Wine, and use it myself for some products, I fear that the wine project may do to linux what win-os/2 did for os/2. If your system will run win32 apps, what insentive do companies have to develop native programs for you. One difference is that Big Blue bungled the marketing of OS/2 worse than DEC did of VMS, and that's saying something. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jefferson, LA USA Man, I'm pretty. Hoo Hah! Johnny Bravo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
techlists [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As much as I like Wine, and use it myself for some products, I fear that the wine project may do to linux what win-os/2 did for os/2. If your system will run win32 apps, what insentive do companies have to develop native programs for you. Well, Wine has been around for what, ten years now and this hasn't happened? And in a way, it's been at roughly the same functional level for most of that time. Many apps work to some extent, some work very well, some don't work at all. (The exact apps and support keeps changing, because it's a moving target.) I don't foresee Wine ever becoming so complete that many companies will use it as an excuse not to write Linux versions. A few have tried, and have mostly failed in the market. (Games I think are the only area where it's been taken seriously.) Unless Windows stops moving, Wine isn't going to catch up. And if Windows stops moving, it can only be because we won. Note that the WineHQ's myths page disagrees with me, but 10 years and no v1.0? History weighs against their arguments. -- Alan Shutko [EMAIL PROTECTED] - I am the rocks. Organ transplants are best left to the professionals -Bart Simpson/1F15 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
On Friday 07 November 2003 13:27, Ron Johnson wrote: On Fri, 2003-11-07 at 11:45, Jonathan Dowland wrote: On Fri, Nov 07, 2003 at 11:01:58AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: As in proprietary, closed-source apps? Well, that depends on if you see them as a problem, or something that you prefer not to use. snip Personally I haven't really made my mind up about prioprietry apps, and whether RMS is right or not. However, the success of Linux is widely attributed to the open-source development model, so I can't really see the future of Linux throwing it away. I'm all for the open-source development model. However, we must respect that some companies want to keep their source closed, and still sell to the Linux market. I'm fascinated with this question from a practical perspective. The RMS model works when producers can afford to present a gift or when a community organizes to accomplish a goal (barn-raising, for example). Let's say you're a barn builder. People need barns and are used to buying barns now-a-days. You go around to the community and suggest a community barn-raising project. Everyone agrees but you soon find out the participants are barn users and not barn builders. The community is more than happy to use the barn you give them for free if you'll do it for free. You talk to your family and they remind you that they'll starve if you build barns for free. So you offer to build barns for a price and you find that people are willing to buy the barns because they don't want to learn barn-building. The quilting bee in the church basement, on the other hand, is a well-oiled machine because there are enough quilters that can do the work and enjoy it and they all get quilts out of the deal which is good because it gets chilly at night around there. So they turn up regularly to quilt and talk trash about the people that are not quilters - especially that barn builder that first said he was going to build a free barn for everybody in town but later changed his mind and how he should just get a barn-raising group together and everybody should help to build barns for everone in the group just like they do with quilts. I can relate to the barn builder in my own endeavors. I sure like that quilt on my bed too. -- Mike Mueller 324881 (08/20/2003) Make clockwise circles with your right foot. Now use your right hand to draw the number 6 in the air. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
On Fri, Nov 07, 2003 at 04:28:57PM -0500, Mike Mueller wrote: snip Let's say you're a barn builder. People need barns and are used to buying barns now-a-days. You go around to the community and suggest a community barn-raising project. Everyone agrees but you soon find out the participants are barn users and not barn builders. The community is more than happy to use the barn you give them for free if you'll do it for free. You talk to your family and they remind you that they'll starve if you build barns for free. So you offer to build barns for a price and you find that people are willing to buy the barns because they don't want to learn barn-building. More like one day I woke up an realized: god, these barn-builders sure are selling shitty barns. I think I'll build with sod instead :-) It would be different if some people had gold-covered barns, but everybody with a closed-source O/S is sitting there in a crappy barn, saying this is how barns should be; write a whitepaper on how the door shouldn't be closed, anyway. The quilting bee in the church basement, on the other hand, is a well-oiled machine because there are enough quilters that can do the work and enjoy it and they all get quilts out of the deal which is good because it gets chilly at night around there. So they turn up regularly to quilt and talk trash about the people that are not quilters - especially that barn builder that first said he was going to build a free barn for everybody in town but later changed his mind and how he should just get a barn-raising group together and everybody should help to build barns for everone in the group just like they do with quilts. I can relate to the barn builder in my own endeavors. I sure like that quilt on my bed too. -- Mike Mueller 324881 (08/20/2003) Make clockwise circles with your right foot. Now use your right hand to draw the number 6 in the air. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
On Fri, 07 Nov 2003 at 12:27:11 -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: [...] On the other end of the scale, there are, as far as I know, no OSS packages comparable to Reader Rabbit or Calendar Creator or Act! or EndNote or Quark. You can compare Scribus to Quark. Some are ok, but in many cases, nothing is out there in the OSS world. Up to the limits of the DMCA, there's always something out there. Just maybe not with the polish, total feature set and user-friendliness you'd expect from a comercially developed product. The only exception perhaps would be the games. For example, you can compare Blender (GPL) to Maya. Is the comparsion good? Most likely not. But if all you want to create is one-minute CGI video animation, you can get away with blender. (At least that's the impression I get from the Blender site's gallery.) Do you want desktop publishing on *n*x, you can use Scribus. Is it better than Quark. Most likely not. But if you want to layout your small office's newsletter it would do the job just fine. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
Ron Johnson wrote: On Fri, 2003-11-07 at 13:20, techlists wrote: On Thu, 2003-11-06 at 17:52, David Millet wrote: all I have to say is that I personally want linux to rule the desktop, simply because I will stand to make alot of money when big companies start picking it up. a lot of us will, in fact. i'm extremely confident that it will rule the desktop market, because of the speed at which the desktops have improved, which i have been lucky to observe during the past year i've been doing the linux thing. i've seen major improvements, unlike how windows upgrades their operating systems these days. i use winXP at work and haven't seen yet too much of an improvement from win2000. i agree with that guy from red hat. give kde, gnome, etc a few more years to mature and it will be night-night time for the M$ monopoly. Not until Broderbund releases a Calendar Creator that works with Linux. Ditto for Reader Rabbit, Math Blaster, etc, etc, ad nauseum. Or not until wine begins running these and every windoze app that everyone uses flawlessly, which hopefully happens soon. david As much as I like Wine, and use it myself for some products, I fear that the wine project may do to linux what win-os/2 did for os/2. If your system will run win32 apps, what insentive do companies have to develop native programs for you. One difference is that Big Blue bungled the marketing of OS/2 worse than DEC did of VMS, and that's saying something. I must admit I was a bit disappointed in the outcome of OS/2. Not to get off topic, but credit is due. My first experience with OS/2 was version 2.0 - attempting to run in on a 386 with 4M RAM. It didn't run, it didn't even stagger - it crawled. But it did install, and it did function. This being in the '80's, I returned my 40+ disks to their package and got a refund from the store (it wasn't Egghead, I forgot the name). Then I tried version 2.1 - this time with 8M RAM. There was something a bit unusual here - the distribution had about half the disks, required less hard drive space - and ran faster with more features. This I had Warp version 3.0 - again, smaller distribution, smaller installation requirements, more features. This was my platform of choice for running Windoze 3.x applications. I don't think I've ever seen a better example of programmers taking more pride in their work and continually refining their code - instead of just throwing more hardware at a performance problem. I've seen exceptional programs written from scratch - Q, later TSE comes to mind - but the level of improvement displayed by OS/2 I haven't seen anywhere else. If IBM had decided to tackle a Win95 emulator - I think the market would be bit different today. Sigh. I guess they already knew whatever undocumented functions they emulated - Microsoft's next version would just add more. Oh well. Maybe I need to start scrounging pennies and forwarding my meager contributions to the Wine effort - being able to eliminate Windoze while retaining my existing application library is quite appealing. Daniel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
* csj [EMAIL PROTECTED] [031107 16:17]: Do you want desktop publishing on *n*x, you can use Scribus. Is it better than Quark. Most likely not. But if you want to layout your small office's newsletter it would do the job just fine. According to an article in last month's _Linux Journal_, there's only ever been a couple of guys working on Scribus. When you think of it in those terms (a couple of guys versus a huge corporation), it's pretty impressive. -- Lance Simmons signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
csj [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Do you want desktop publishing on *n*x, you can use Scribus. Is it better than Quark. Most likely not. But if you want to layout your small office's newsletter it would do the job just fine. If one doesn't mind a proprietary app, Pagestream[1] is a very powerful DTP program. At one point, it could compete on a feature by feature basis with Quark, though I haven't used either for a long time. But it's an extremely mature package and I've used it in the past to great effect. Footnotes: [1] http://www.grasshopperllc.com/ -- Alan Shutko [EMAIL PROTECTED] - I am the rocks. If Beverly was my Dr, I'd be a hypochondriac! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
Speaking of Reader Rabbit, has anyone gotten any of the educational games running under wine? Art Edwards On Fri, Nov 07, 2003 at 02:52:38PM -0800, Daniel Miller wrote: Ron Johnson wrote: On Fri, 2003-11-07 at 13:20, techlists wrote: On Thu, 2003-11-06 at 17:52, David Millet wrote: all I have to say is that I personally want linux to rule the desktop, simply because I will stand to make alot of money when big companies start picking it up. a lot of us will, in fact. i'm extremely confident that it will rule the desktop market, because of the speed at which the desktops have improved, which i have been lucky to observe during the past year i've been doing the linux thing. i've seen major improvements, unlike how windows upgrades their operating systems these days. i use winXP at work and haven't seen yet too much of an improvement from win2000. i agree with that guy from red hat. give kde, gnome, etc a few more years to mature and it will be night-night time for the M$ monopoly. Not until Broderbund releases a Calendar Creator that works with Linux. Ditto for Reader Rabbit, Math Blaster, etc, etc, ad nauseum. Or not until wine begins running these and every windoze app that everyone uses flawlessly, which hopefully happens soon. david As much as I like Wine, and use it myself for some products, I fear that the wine project may do to linux what win-os/2 did for os/2. If your system will run win32 apps, what insentive do companies have to develop native programs for you. One difference is that Big Blue bungled the marketing of OS/2 worse than DEC did of VMS, and that's saying something. I must admit I was a bit disappointed in the outcome of OS/2. Not to get off topic, but credit is due. My first experience with OS/2 was version 2.0 - attempting to run in on a 386 with 4M RAM. It didn't run, it didn't even stagger - it crawled. But it did install, and it did function. This being in the '80's, I returned my 40+ disks to their package and got a refund from the store (it wasn't Egghead, I forgot the name). Then I tried version 2.1 - this time with 8M RAM. There was something a bit unusual here - the distribution had about half the disks, required less hard drive space - and ran faster with more features. This I had Warp version 3.0 - again, smaller distribution, smaller installation requirements, more features. This was my platform of choice for running Windoze 3.x applications. I don't think I've ever seen a better example of programmers taking more pride in their work and continually refining their code - instead of just throwing more hardware at a performance problem. I've seen exceptional programs written from scratch - Q, later TSE comes to mind - but the level of improvement displayed by OS/2 I haven't seen anywhere else. If IBM had decided to tackle a Win95 emulator - I think the market would be bit different today. Sigh. I guess they already knew whatever undocumented functions they emulated - Microsoft's next version would just add more. Oh well. Maybe I need to start scrounging pennies and forwarding my meager contributions to the Wine effort - being able to eliminate Windoze while retaining my existing application library is quite appealing. Daniel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
On Fri, 7 Nov 2003 16:28:57 -0500 Mike Mueller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Friday 07 November 2003 13:27, Ron Johnson wrote: On Fri, 2003-11-07 at 11:45, Jonathan Dowland wrote: On Fri, Nov 07, 2003 at 11:01:58AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: As in proprietary, closed-source apps? Well, that depends on if you see them as a problem, or something that you prefer not to use. snip Personally I haven't really made my mind up about prioprietry apps, and whether RMS is right or not. However, the success of Linux is widely attributed to the open-source development model, so I can't really see the future of Linux throwing it away. Open source success comes from the wealth of the innovative factor of the entire public domain. I'm all for the open-source development model. However, we must respect that some companies want to keep their source closed, and still sell to the Linux market. Whereas with this scenario we have a party who does not contribute, retains full possession, and only sells the use of the product.There is also the factor of how much code has been stolen from the public domain, and is being sold back to them. I'm fascinated with this question from a practical perspective. The RMS model works when producers can afford to present a gift or when a community organizes to accomplish a goal (barn-raising, for example). Let's say you're a barn builder. People need barns and are used to buying barns now-a-days. You go around to the community and suggest a community barn-raising project. Everyone agrees but you soon find out the participants are barn users and not barn builders. The community is more than happy to use the barn you give them for free if you'll do it for free. You talk to your family and they remind you that they'll starve if you build barns for free. So you offer to build barns for a price and you find that people are willing to buy the barns because they don't want to learn barn-building. Perhaps they do. Many hands make light work. This is how all barns were built at one stage, until something changed our sense of community. Entire barns would be erected in a day, and it wasn't just work, it was a social occassion with everyone involved including the kids, while the girls got together on a picnic lunch-that also being a collective effort with a free interchange of recipes and methods. It wasn't just barns that got built this way, houses and community (there's that word again) buildings did too. While they are working together, the barn-builder gets enough ideas in turn to feed his family twice over. Sure Ted, it's easy. I'll be round on Tuesday and show you how it's done. The quilting bee in the church basement, on the other hand, is a well-oiled machine because there are enough quilters that can do the work Only because somebody else showed them how to do it in the first place. and enjoy it and they all get quilts out of the deal which is good because it gets chilly at night around there. Everybody profits. So they turn up regularly to quilt and talk trash about the people that are not quilters And there's that social factor again, with the free interchange of ideas, and opportunities for aspects such as cross-cultural appreciation. - especially that barn builder that first said he was going to build a free barn for everybody in town but later changed his mind and how he should just get a barn-raising group together and everybody should help to build barns for everone in the group just like they do with quilts. I can relate to the barn builder in my own endeavors. I sure like that quilt on my bed too. -- Mike Mueller 324881 (08/20/2003) The problem with the internet is that it permits us to get to know each other, and to appreciate each others' thought processes by way of direct interchange. Utilities such as imaginary lines on maps, nationalism, theologies, cannot convince me that you are 'the pit of all evil' if I have learnt by way of practical experience, the only source of true knowledge, that you are not. We are not building a quilt or a barn here, we are weaving the very fabric of the medium of our common social interchange, and we must be very careful that they of the 'closed source mentality', whether corporate, governmental, or a collusion of both, do not take it from us so that they can further bend us to their purpose. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 07:27, Ron Johnson wrote: On Fri, 2003-11-07 at 11:45, Jonathan Dowland wrote: On Fri, Nov 07, 2003 at 11:01:58AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: As in proprietary, closed-source apps? Well, that depends on if you see them as a problem, or something that you prefer not to use. I prefer not to use proprietary, closed-source apps, but, when necessary, will pay for them, and use them, even on Debian. Personally I haven't really made my mind up about prioprietry apps, and whether RMS is right or not. However, the success of Linux is widely attributed to the open-source development model, so I can't really see the future of Linux throwing it away. I'm all for the open-source development model. However, we must respect that some companies want to keep their source closed, and still sell to the Linux market. (snip) Personally, I think the battle should be about open *standards*.I think Open Source is good, but I quite happily use as my preferred browser, Opera (which I'm pretty sure isn't Open Source), in preference to Konq or Galeon. Just a matter of personal preference. What I won't tolerate (when I have any say in the matter) is proprietary standards whereby one company tries to establish a monopoly (and yes I do mean Microsoft).Anybody sends me a Word doc is likely to be asked to send it again in some open format.I don't care that Open Office can read it (though I rather welcome the existence of OO - anything that helps to undermine the Evil Empire can't be bad :) Unfortunately I can't apply this at work. cr -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 10:28, Mike Mueller wrote: On Friday 07 November 2003 13:27, Ron Johnson wrote: On Fri, 2003-11-07 at 11:45, Jonathan Dowland wrote: On Fri, Nov 07, 2003 at 11:01:58AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: As in proprietary, closed-source apps? Well, that depends on if you see them as a problem, or something that you prefer not to use. snip Personally I haven't really made my mind up about prioprietry apps, and whether RMS is right or not. However, the success of Linux is widely attributed to the open-source development model, so I can't really see the future of Linux throwing it away. I'm all for the open-source development model. However, we must respect that some companies want to keep their source closed, and still sell to the Linux market. I'm fascinated with this question from a practical perspective. The RMS model works when producers can afford to present a gift or when a community organizes to accomplish a goal (barn-raising, for example). Let's say you're a barn builder. People need barns and are used to buying barns now-a-days. You go around to the community and suggest a community barn-raising project. Everyone agrees but you soon find out the participants are barn users and not barn builders. The community is more than happy to use the barn you give them for free if you'll do it for free. You talk to your family and they remind you that they'll starve if you build barns for free. So you offer to build barns for a price and you find that people are willing to buy the barns because they don't want to learn barn-building. Your barn idea works fine in that mythical beast, a 'free market'. The problem we are faced with, is that the biggest barn builder has managed to run every other barn builder out of town and now has a monopoly on barns, sells only one (patented) model that falls down after a few years and needs replacement, and charges exorbitant prices for them. Nobody else can afford to start a barn-building business because, one way or another, Mr Big will buy them out, intimidate the lumber merchants not to sell to them, threaten them with copyright lawsuits, or (if sufficiently pushed) drop the prices on his barns just until they are forced out of business. Maybe the only way to break the bastard is for enough prospective barn owners to get together and start co-operatively building barns. cr -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
On Thu, 2003-11-06 at 00:11, Tom wrote: On Thu, Nov 06, 2003 at 02:02:26PM +0800, David Palmer. wrote: [snip] H.P., slandered as it has been, appears to have been the only corporate body that has exhibited any real long term commitment, so far. Because of John Hall, and the ex-DECcies, and Compaq people selling tons of ProLiants w/ Linux. I have to say I was a Carley basher (she seemed California-phoney to me, that was probably me projecting my own hangups), but she's delivered the goods and made a buck. She earned my respect. Ah! HP is bleeding (as opposed to Sun's hemorrhaging) money and talent because of bone-headed management. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jefferson, LA USA As the night fall does not come at once, neither does oppression. It is in such twilight that we must all be aware of change in the air - however slight - lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness. Justice William O. Douglas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
- Original Message - From: ScruLoose [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 19:31 Subject: Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers The Scru is no longer loose you have your head on tight. Congrats; Hoyt -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
On Wed, 5 Nov 2003, ScruLoose wrote: On Wed, Nov 05, 2003 at 05:27:11PM -0700, Monique Y. Herman wrote: See my post in another thread. Different people have different visions for the future of linux. Not all of us care whether or not it becomes a desktop leader. Not all of us want it to be easy enough to use that our moms are comfortable -- not if that means sacrificing security, stability, or our beloved command line and text configuration files. That's a very good point. I'd like to add that Linux can already be easy enough to _use_ to make Mom comfortable (plunk your average end-user down with pre-installed KDE3, OO.o and Mozilla; I expect she'll be perfectly happy) , it's just not that easy to _administer_. I wonder if there's a future of full-time freelance sysadmins keeping whole neighborhoods worth of end-users' home systems up-to-date remotely. Like plumbers, but for your PC... (well, you can't un-clog a toilet over ssh, but you see what I mean) Seems to me that if an end-user (like Mom, for example) wants an easy, secure, stable experience with a Linux box, she needs someone (friend, family, paid help) to do the sysadmin maintenance stuff for her. Of course, if she wants an equally good experience with a Windows machine, she needs the same 'someone' to format it, install a working OS, and *then* do the sysadmin maintenance stuff. True. But after having installed Windows once to a machine, do they have really that much sys admin maintenance stuff to do as I have on Linux? I'm running Debian on a powerpc, and after months of work on it, there are still things here that are not working, or things that have to be set up to work smoothly. On the other hand: I'd guess it's a problem for people (including myself) if they can't be sure the web cam, or whatever, that they bought might not work on Linux. Which, AFAIKS, often wouldn't be the mistake of the Linux developers. But such a situation could become a problem. We're all here because we know that Windows achieves easy at the expense of being hopelessly insecure and often broken. Maybe it's time to start offering another choice to people who are fed up with Windows but not ready to install/configure/admin a *nix machine. I don't know too much about Windoze anymore: I read about the security problems that this OS, as it seems, still has. But is Windows still that broken as it, as it seems, was about 3 or 4 years ago on W98, at least on my machine: I was using W98 then, and *one* reason I later moved to Linux, IIRC, was that I simply was fed up with the blue screens on that system happening there about once a week or so. OTOH: Yesterday I was told by Linux folks that the sound problems on Linux that I have from time to time might need a simple restart of the system. Which was a surprise for me as I thought this sort of fix is something I had left behind after moving to Linux ... I don't think I'd ever go back to Windows, given my interest in the command line, the way Linux is working, etc. But I can clearly understand users who are not at all interested in Computer-ville. Users seeing a computer simply as a tool, like a refrigerator, which has to work. Users not being interested at all in spending weeks/months of time to simply get a computer running the apps they want to run. So, yes: It seems it makes some sense what the RedHat chief executive said. Best Regards, Wolfgang Paying the occasional sysadmin bill might well come out to less than what these people spend on the software itself now. Cheers! -- Profile, Links: http://profiles.yahoo.com/wolfgangpfeiffer -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
On Thursday 06 November 2003 14:27, Wolfgang Pfeiffer wrote: So, yes: It seems it makes some sense what the RedHat chief executive said. If your brother or sister starts a new venture, you wouldn't use the local newspaper to say that their venture is immature and folks should check back in a few years. That makes sense and it's true, but if you did, your brother or sister would be terribly hurt and angry. (I use you in the general sense and not in the directly personal sense.) I'm working hard to create a widget that runs on Linux. Others are doing the same. We don't need Mr RH CEO working with Bill and Darryl to tarnish the reputation of good software because it changes their world. MBA-boy screwed up with his public passive-aggressive comments. What next from RH - a public admission that Linux really does infringe on SCO property rights? Hell has no wrath like a CEO scorned. -- Mike Mueller 324881 (08/20/2003) Make clockwise circles with your right foot. Now use your right hand to draw the number 6 in the air. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
all I have to say is that I personally want linux to rule the desktop, simply because I will stand to make alot of money when big companies start picking it up. a lot of us will, in fact. i'm extremely confident that it will rule the desktop market, because of the speed at which the desktops have improved, which i have been lucky to observe during the past year i've been doing the linux thing. i've seen major improvements, unlike how windows upgrades their operating systems these days. i use winXP at work and haven't seen yet too much of an improvement from win2000. i agree with that guy from red hat. give kde, gnome, etc a few more years to mature and it will be night-night time for the M$ monopoly. Not until Broderbund releases a Calendar Creator that works with Linux. Ditto for Reader Rabbit, Math Blaster, etc, etc, ad nauseum. Or not until wine begins running these and every windoze app that everyone uses flawlessly, which hopefully happens soon. david
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
- Original Message - From: David Millet To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Debian-User Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 6:52 PM Subject: Re: "Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers" all I have to say is that I personally want linux to rule the desktop, simply because I will stand to make alot of money when big companies start picking it up. a lot of us will, in fact. Not until Broderbund releases a Calendar Creator that works with Linux. Ditto for Reader Rabbit, Math Blaster, etc, etc, ad nauseum. Or not until wine begins running these and every windoze app that everyone uses flawlessly, which hopefully happens soon.david *** My experience with the wonderful world of Linux and end users - or normal people. My sister needed a laptop to help her start a new business writing grant proposals. I figured I'd help by buying her a laptop (used, but still good, a Dell Latitude PIII, 256Meg RAM, 12 Gig hard disk, CD-RW, external floppy, Xircom 10/100+56 card. Itested Mandrake 9.1, SuSE 8.2 Personal and Knoppix installed to harddisk. Decided to ship it with SuSE with all updates done, and with OOo 1.1.0 and Scribus 1.0.1. Paid for Internet access, and configured dial on demand. Also configured KMail,Evolution, Mozilla Mail and KNode. She called today. Had a problem with it (trouble-shooting was turn it upside down and shake it). Brought it to computer repair shop. He installed non-licensed Windows and MS Office. I'm discouraged. It truely was 'point 'n click'. Everything was installed, tested and working. Literally plug it in, turn it on, connect the included phone cord and your online.Just click the Seagull and you have a choice of OOo1.0.2 or OOo1.1.0. Think I want my SuSE 8.2 Personal boxed set, SuSE Live Eval CD, and boot floppy back! But on the good side, my 7 year old son and 14 year old son are perfectly comfortable with SuSE, Mandrake and RedHat. Maybe Debian in a while.
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
My experience with the wonderful world of Linux and end users - or normal people. My sister needed a laptop to help her start a new business writing grant proposals. I figured I'd help by buying her a laptop (used, but still good, a Dell Latitude PIII, 256Meg RAM, 12 Gig hard disk, CD-RW, external floppy, Xircom 10/100+56 card. I tested Mandrake 9.1, SuSE 8.2 Personal and Knoppix installed to harddisk. Decided to ship it with SuSE with all updates done, and with OOo 1.1.0 and Scribus 1.0.1. Paid for Internet access, and configured dial on demand. Also configured KMail,Evolution, Mozilla Mail and KNode. She called today. Had a problem with it (trouble-shooting was turn it upside down and shake it). Brought it to computer repair shop. He installed non-licensed Windows and MS Office. I'm discouraged. It truely was 'point 'n click'. Everything was installed, tested and working. Literally plug it in, turn it on, connect the included phone cord and your online. Just click the Seagull and you have a choice of OOo1.0.2 or OOo1.1.0. Think I want my SuSE 8.2 Personal boxed set, SuSE Live Eval CD, and boot floppy back! But on the good side, my 7 year old son and 14 year old son are perfectly comfortable with SuSE, Mandrake and RedHat. Maybe Debian in a while. Thats too bad about your sister. I can't get my wife to use Linux either. Linux desktop domination needs a few years yet. I'm thinking it will happen pretty soon and I can't wait. I try to tell everyone about Linux when I get the chance. I'm like a missionary for Linux. I love this crap. david -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
On Thu, 2003-11-06 at 18:02, BruceG wrote: - Original Message - From: David Millet To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Debian-User Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 6:52 PM Subject: Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers all I have to say is that I personally want linux to rule the desktop, simply because I will stand to make alot of money when big companies start picking it up. a lot of us will, in fact. Not until Broderbund releases a Calendar Creator that works with Linux. Ditto for Reader Rabbit, Math Blaster, etc, etc, ad nauseum. Or not until wine begins running these and every windoze app that everyone uses flawlessly, which hopefully happens soon. david *** My experience with the wonderful world of Linux and end users - or normal people. My sister needed a laptop to help her start a new business writing grant proposals. I figured I'd help by buying her a laptop (used, but still good, a Dell Latitude PIII, 256Meg RAM, 12 Gig hard disk, CD-RW, external floppy, Xircom 10/100+56 card. I tested Mandrake 9.1, SuSE 8.2 Personal and Knoppix installed to harddisk. Decided to ship it with SuSE with all updates done, and with OOo 1.1.0 and Scribus 1.0.1. Paid for Internet access, and configured dial on demand. Also configured KMail,Evolution, Mozilla Mail and KNode. She called today. Had a problem with it (trouble-shooting was turn it upside down and shake it). Brought it to computer repair shop. He installed non-licensed Windows and MS Office. I'm discouraged. It truely was 'point 'n click'. Everything was installed, tested and working. Literally plug it in, turn it on, connect the included phone cord and your online. Just click the Seagull and you have a choice of OOo1.0.2 or OOo1.1.0. Think I want my SuSE 8.2 Personal boxed set, SuSE Live Eval CD, and boot floppy back! But on the good side, my 7 year old son and 14 year old son are perfectly comfortable with SuSE, Mandrake and RedHat. Maybe Debian in a while. Complain to the store's owner that his employees overwrote your data, and demand compensation. Contact the BSA, and tell them about the unlicensed Windows. (You reinstalled SuSE, right?) -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jefferson, LA USA You ask us the same question every day, and we give you the same answer every day. Someday, we hope that you will believe us... U.S. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, to a reporter -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
Complain to the store's owner that his employees overwrote your data, and demand compensation. Contact the BSA, and tell them about the unlicensed Windows. hell ya! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
- Original Message - From: Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Debian-User [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 7:34 PM Subject: Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers On Thu, 2003-11-06 at 18:02, BruceG wrote: - Original Message - From: David Millet To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Debian-User Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 6:52 PM Subject: Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers all I have to say is that I personally want linux to rule the desktop, simply because I will stand to make alot of money when big companies start picking it up. a lot of us will, in fact. Not until Broderbund releases a Calendar Creator that works with Linux. Ditto for Reader Rabbit, Math Blaster, etc, etc, ad nauseum. Or not until wine begins running these and every windoze app that everyone uses flawlessly, which hopefully happens soon. david *** My experience with the wonderful world of Linux and end users - or normal people. My sister needed a laptop to help her start a new business writing grant proposals. I figured I'd help by buying her a laptop (used, but still good, a Dell Latitude PIII, 256Meg RAM, 12 Gig hard disk, CD-RW, external floppy, Xircom 10/100+56 card. I tested Mandrake 9.1, SuSE 8.2 Personal and Knoppix installed to harddisk. Decided to ship it with SuSE with all updates done, and with OOo 1.1.0 and Scribus 1.0.1. Paid for Internet access, and configured dial on demand. Also configured KMail,Evolution, Mozilla Mail and KNode. She called today. Had a problem with it (trouble-shooting was turn it upside down and shake it). Brought it to computer repair shop. He installed non-licensed Windows and MS Office. I'm discouraged. It truely was 'point 'n click'. Everything was installed, tested and working. Literally plug it in, turn it on, connect the included phone cord and your online. Just click the Seagull and you have a choice of OOo1.0.2 or OOo1.1.0. Think I want my SuSE 8.2 Personal boxed set, SuSE Live Eval CD, and boot floppy back! But on the good side, my 7 year old son and 14 year old son are perfectly comfortable with SuSE, Mandrake and RedHat. Maybe Debian in a while. Complain to the store's owner that his employees overwrote your data, and demand compensation. Contact the BSA, and tell them about the unlicensed Windows. (You reinstalled SuSE, right?) No, I'm a 12 hour drive away from her - so it is back into the Windows world. I just don't understand installing pirated software. Not when better software is available free or at a reasonable cost. SuSE boxed set only cost $40. OOo is free, and available on just about any platform. With project Fedora and Debian people have a choice of some great truely free systems. To me it's well worth the time it takes to learn something new. Let's say you buy a licensed version of Windows and a licensed version of MSOffice. To my way of thinking - if you can learn the basics of a new system in 20-30 hours, you're way ahead of the game. At least she found the value of the laptop from the computer shop and thanked me for it. That's on the plus side. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
- Original Message - From: BruceG [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Debian-User [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 7:53 PM Subject: Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers - Original Message - From: Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Debian-User [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 7:34 PM Subject: Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers On Thu, 2003-11-06 at 18:02, BruceG wrote: - Original Message - From: David Millet To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Debian-User Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 6:52 PM Subject: Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers all I have to say is that I personally want linux to rule the desktop, simply because I will stand to make alot of money when big companies start picking it up. a lot of us will, in fact. Not until Broderbund releases a Calendar Creator that works with Linux. Ditto for Reader Rabbit, Math Blaster, etc, etc, ad nauseum. Or not until wine begins running these and every windoze app that everyone uses flawlessly, which hopefully happens soon. david *** My experience with the wonderful world of Linux and end users - or normal people. My sister needed a laptop to help her start a new business writing grant proposals. I figured I'd help by buying her a laptop (used, but still good, a Dell Latitude PIII, 256Meg RAM, 12 Gig hard disk, CD-RW, external floppy, Xircom 10/100+56 card. I tested Mandrake 9.1, SuSE 8.2 Personal and Knoppix installed to harddisk. Decided to ship it with SuSE with all updates done, and with OOo 1.1.0 and Scribus 1.0.1. Paid for Internet access, and configured dial on demand. Also configured KMail,Evolution, Mozilla Mail and KNode. She called today. Had a problem with it (trouble-shooting was turn it upside down and shake it). Brought it to computer repair shop. He installed non-licensed Windows and MS Office. I'm discouraged. It truely was 'point 'n click'. Everything was installed, tested and working. Literally plug it in, turn it on, connect the included phone cord and your online. Just click the Seagull and you have a choice of OOo1.0.2 or OOo1.1.0. Think I want my SuSE 8.2 Personal boxed set, SuSE Live Eval CD, and boot floppy back! But on the good side, my 7 year old son and 14 year old son are perfectly comfortable with SuSE, Mandrake and RedHat. Maybe Debian in a while. Complain to the store's owner that his employees overwrote your data, and demand compensation. Contact the BSA, and tell them about the unlicensed Windows. (You reinstalled SuSE, right?) No, I'm a 12 hour drive away from her - so it is back into the Windows world. I just don't understand installing pirated software. Not when better software is available free or at a reasonable cost. SuSE boxed set only cost $40. OOo is free, and available on just about any platform. With project Fedora and Debian people have a choice of some great truely free systems. To me it's well worth the time it takes to learn something new. Let's say you buy a licensed version of Windows and a licensed version of MSOffice. To my way of thinking - if you can learn the basics of a new system in 20-30 hours, you're way ahead of the game. At least she found the value of the laptop from the computer shop and thanked me for it. That's on the plus side. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] I HATE the way posts look from Outlook Express. Argh! Just wrapping up one more job, then back to Linux-land. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, Nov 06, 2003 at 08:27:22PM +0100, Wolfgang Pfeiffer wrote: OTOH: Yesterday I was told by Linux folks that the sound problems on Linux that I have from time to time might need a simple restart of the system. Which was a surprise for me as I thought this sort of fix is something I had left behind after moving to Linux ... The only times you need to reboot that I've experienced: 1) New kernel you wanna try out. 2) Physical flaw in the hardware or internal hardware needing a power cycle. 3) Power failure. - -- .''`. Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' : `. `'` proud Debian admin and user `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/qv7AUzgNqloQMwcRAv+zAJ9qJcvWFUi7ZzJAQQH4IeqIKlGYcACfdxGh wI6gR+cQdMAJg6damcH93tI= =33i6 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
On Thu, 2003-11-06 at 20:09, Paul Johnson wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, Nov 06, 2003 at 08:27:22PM +0100, Wolfgang Pfeiffer wrote: OTOH: Yesterday I was told by Linux folks that the sound problems on Linux that I have from time to time might need a simple restart of the system. Which was a surprise for me as I thought this sort of fix is something I had left behind after moving to Linux ... The only times you need to reboot that I've experienced: 1) New kernel you wanna try out. 2) Physical flaw in the hardware or internal hardware needing a power cycle. 3) Power failure. Don't forget: kernel bug -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jefferson, LA USA A C program is like a fast dance on a newly waxed dance floor by people carrying razors. Waldi Ravens -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 17:58:51 -0700 David Millet [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Complain to the store's owner that his employees overwrote your data, and demand compensation. Contact the BSA, and tell them about the unlicensed Windows. hell ya! Contact MS and tell them about the unlicensed windows install. Give them the name and address of the dealer, and say that you have it on good authority that he is the coordinator for the MSBlaster programme. Buy your sister a brand new Omni with Debian installed out of the reward money. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
On Wed, Nov 05, 2003 at 06:14:08PM +0100, Wolfgang Pfeiffer wrote: http://news.zdnet.co.uk/0,39020330,39117575,00.htm Computers are similar to cars: if you know what you are doing, you can pretty much fix them yourselves for the cost of parts, and minor problems don't hold you up much. If you don't know anything about them, you have to pay through the nose, they are an endless source of stress and suffering, and you will go to unusual lengths to get by. I like Hondas Civics myself, closest thing to a solid-state automobile you can by. Buy it, it's fully functional without style, but damn if it isn't headache-free :-) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 at 17:14 GMT, Wolfgang Pfeiffer penned: http://news.zdnet.co.uk/0,39020330,39117575,00.htm This was on slashdot and people really freaked out about it. The guy is saying that RedHat is great for businesses, even for corporate user machines, but that he has trouble seeing his grandfather wanting to learn how to run linux. To some extent, I can't disagree with him. My mom bought my dad a digital camera a couple of years ago. Neither of them know a thing about computers, really, but amazingly enough, dad was able to get his pictures from the camera to his computer without my help. On windows. I have trouble picturing (no pun intended) him doing the same on linux. -- monique PLEASE don't CC me. Please. Pretty please with sugar on top. Whatever it takes, just don't CC me! I'm already subscribed!! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
- Original Message -
From: Monique Y. Herman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 11:33
Subject: Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 at 17:14 GMT, Wolfgang Pfeiffer penned:
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/0,39020330,39117575,00.htm
This was on slashdot and people really freaked out about it.
The guy is saying that RedHat is great for businesses, even for
corporate user machines, but that he has trouble seeing his grandfather
wanting to learn how to run linux.
To some extent, I can't disagree with him. My mom bought my dad a
digital camera a couple of years ago. Neither of them know a thing
about computers, really, but amazingly enough, dad was able to get his
pictures from the camera to his computer without my help. On windows.
I have trouble picturing (no pun intended) him doing the same on linux.
--
monique
PLEASE don't CC me. Please. Pretty please with sugar on top.
Whatever it takes, just don't CC me! I'm already subscribed!!
As ustall I will be politically incorrect but I think the following applys
to this entire subject:
Ignore the past and you will fail
Ignore the future and you have already failed.{Unknown}
I think RH ignored the future. Will Debian?
Regards;
Hoyt
--
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Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 at 00:01 GMT, Hoyt Bailey penned:
As ustall I will be politically incorrect but I think the following
applys to this entire subject:
Ignore the past and you will fail Ignore the future and you have
already failed.{Unknown}
I think RH ignored the future. Will Debian? Regards; Hoyt
See my post in another thread. Different people have different visions
for the future of linux. Not all of us care whether or not it becomes a
desktop leader. Not all of us want it to be easy enough to use that our
moms are comfortable -- not if that means sacrificing security,
stability, or our beloved command line and text configuration files.
--
monique
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Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
On Wed, Nov 05, 2003 at 05:27:11PM -0700, Monique Y. Herman wrote: See my post in another thread. Different people have different visions for the future of linux. Not all of us care whether or not it becomes a desktop leader. Not all of us want it to be easy enough to use that our moms are comfortable -- not if that means sacrificing security, stability, or our beloved command line and text configuration files. That's a very good point. I'd like to add that Linux can already be easy enough to _use_ to make Mom comfortable (plunk your average end-user down with pre-installed KDE3, OO.o and Mozilla; I expect she'll be perfectly happy) , it's just not that easy to _administer_. I wonder if there's a future of full-time freelance sysadmins keeping whole neighborhoods worth of end-users' home systems up-to-date remotely. Like plumbers, but for your PC... (well, you can't un-clog a toilet over ssh, but you see what I mean) Seems to me that if an end-user (like Mom, for example) wants an easy, secure, stable experience with a Linux box, she needs someone (friend, family, paid help) to do the sysadmin maintenance stuff for her. Of course, if she wants an equally good experience with a Windows machine, she needs the same 'someone' to format it, install a working OS, and *then* do the sysadmin maintenance stuff. We're all here because we know that Windows achieves easy at the expense of being hopelessly insecure and often broken. Maybe it's time to start offering another choice to people who are fed up with Windows but not ready to install/configure/admin a *nix machine. Paying the occasional sysadmin bill might well come out to less than what these people spend on the software itself now. Cheers! -- ,-. -ScruLoose- |Now I realize that just getting through the day Please do not | without killing someone can be an achievement. reply off-list. | - Jane (_Children_of_the_Mind_, Orson Scott Card) `-' pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
On Wed, Nov 05, 2003 at 09:44:20AM -0800, Tom wrote: ... I like Hondas Civics myself, closest thing to a solid-state automobile you can by. Buy it, it's fully functional without style, but damn if it isn't headache-free :-) Heh. I'll sell you mine (nearly new). Been a headache since day 5. But I'll keep my Delor... er, Debian. Kenward -- In a completely rational society, the best of us would aspire to be _teachers_ and the rest of us would have to settle for something less, because passing civilization along from one generation to the next ought to be the highest honor and the highest responsibility anyone could have. - Lee Iacocca -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
all I have to say is that I personally want linux to rule the desktop, simply because I will stand to make alot of money when big companies start picking it up. a lot of us will, in fact. i'm extremely confident that it will rule the desktop market, because of the speed at which the desktops have improved, which i have been lucky to observe during the past year i've been doing the linux thing. i've seen major improvements, unlike how windows upgrades their operating systems these days. i use winXP at work and haven't seen yet too much of an improvement from win2000. i agree with that guy from red hat. give kde, gnome, etc a few more years to mature and it will be night-night time for the M$ monopoly. just my $0.02 david -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
On Wednesday 05 November 2003 19:27, Monique Y. Herman wrote: Not all of us care whether or not it becomes a desktop leader. Not all of us want it to be easy enough to use that our moms are comfortable -- not if that means sacrificing security, stability, or our beloved command line and text configuration files. Second that. Mr. RH CEO tastes sour grapes because IBM dropped US$50M into Novell effectively choosing SuSE's dance card over the RH's. Mr. RH CEO peed into the OSS well. He should have kept his mouth shut. Then again he might be positioning RH for sale to M$. And now for some hand-wringing about Debian in the enterprise: http://www.enterprise-linux-it.com/perl/story/22602.html -- Mike Mueller 324881 (08/20/2003) Make clockwise circles with your right foot. Now use your right hand to draw the number 6 in the air. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
On Wed, Nov 05, 2003 at 10:27:32PM -0500, Mike Mueller wrote: Mr. RH CEO tastes sour grapes because IBM dropped US$50M into Novell effectively choosing SuSE's dance card over the RH's. Mr. RH CEO peed into the OSS well. He should have kept his mouth shut. Then again he might be positioning RH for sale to M$. I thought RH and IBM were tight; RH was essentially IBM's Linux support department (not literally, just sort of). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 at 01:31 GMT, ScruLoose penned: --i0/AhcQY5QxfSsSZ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Nov 05, 2003 at 05:27:11PM -0700, Monique Y. Herman wrote: =20 See my post in another thread. Different people have different visions for the future of linux. Not all of us care whether or not it becomes a desktop leader. Not all of us want it to be easy enough to use that our moms are comfortable -- not if that means sacrificing security, stability, or our beloved command line and text configuration files. That's a very good point. I'd like to add that Linux can already be easy enough to _use_ to make Mom comfortable (plunk your average end-user down with pre-installed KDE3, OO.o and Mozilla; I expect she'll be perfectly happy) , it's just not that easy to _administer_. 100% agreed. I've often thought that, if I lived anywhere near my parents, I would install some variant of linux on their machines and help them when necessary. On the other hand, I think I'd have a tough time explaining to my dad why the software that came with his camera/scanner/plug n play rutebega won't work on his system. On the third hand, my fiance installed debian on one of his father's machines to act as a samba server, and his dad can't stop singing the praises of that machine. He uses it exclusively as an internal fileserver, but as such, it's been flawless. I wonder if there's a future of full-time freelance sysadmins keeping whole neighborhoods worth of end-users' home systems up-to-date remotely. Like plumbers, but for your PC...=20 (well, you can't un-clog a toilet over ssh, but you see what I mean) After talking to my father about the tech support he's received at a local shop, it occured to me that there is a market for what I jokingly called geriatric computer support. My father isn't *that* old, at all, but he has certain expectations about personal interactions. He gets annoyed at strangers addressing him by his first name, just as an example. Sure, part of tech support is knowing your stuff, but another part is building rapport with your customers. I wonder if you could build a business on old-fashioned values; high-tech know-how. (No, you can't have that slogan! It's mine, dammit, all mine!) -- monique PLEASE don't CC me. Please. Pretty please with sugar on top. Whatever it takes, just don't CC me! I'm already subscribed!! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
On Wed, 2003-11-05 at 20:55, David Millet wrote: all I have to say is that I personally want linux to rule the desktop, simply because I will stand to make alot of money when big companies start picking it up. a lot of us will, in fact. i'm extremely confident that it will rule the desktop market, because of the speed at which the desktops have improved, which i have been lucky to observe during the past year i've been doing the linux thing. i've seen major improvements, unlike how windows upgrades their operating systems these days. i use winXP at work and haven't seen yet too much of an improvement from win2000. i agree with that guy from red hat. give kde, gnome, etc a few more years to mature and it will be night-night time for the M$ monopoly. Not until Broderbund releases a Calendar Creator that works with Linux. Ditto for Reader Rabbit, Math Blaster, etc, etc, ad nauseum. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jefferson, LA USA (Women are) like compilers. They take simple statements and make them into big productions. Pitr Dubovitch -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 19:58:05 -0800 Tom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Nov 05, 2003 at 10:27:32PM -0500, Mike Mueller wrote: Mr. RH CEO tastes sour grapes because IBM dropped US$50M into Novell effectively choosing SuSE's dance card over the RH's. Mr. RH CEO peed into the OSS well. He should have kept his mouth shut. Then again he might be positioning RH for sale to M$. I thought RH and IBM were tight; RH was essentially IBM's Linux support department (not literally, just sort of). Not good business to keep all your eggs in one basket though. Also, these guys are good at long term strategy. Novell, along with Cisco and the U.S. Govt., have a major interest in the development of 'Abilene', the support network for Internet2. Employing open source to create a closed network. SuSE have just landed the Linux contract for the entire German Govt., I.B.M. picking up the deal on hardware supply and training. I.B.M.s' latest move has been a $50 million investment in Novell. All very cosy. I.B.M., along with Microsoft, has an interest in the Royal Bank of Canada, the institution that supplied SCO with its' bankroll. I'm sitting back wondering what's going to come out of it all. Linux people are running around saying 'this corporation's good, and that one is bad', when as far as I am concerned, corporations don't have personalities,-their lifeblood is profit. Period. Fullstop. If anybody thinks that corporate involvement with Linux has got anything to do with anything but a reduction in overhead,-nice stuff if you can afford to smoke it. H.P., slandered as it has been, appears to have been the only corporate body that has exhibited any real long term commitment, so far. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Red Hat recommends Windows for consumers
On Thu, Nov 06, 2003 at 02:02:26PM +0800, David Palmer. wrote: Linux people are running around saying 'this corporation's good, and that one is bad', when as far as I am concerned, corporations don't have personalities,-their lifeblood is profit. Period. Fullstop. If anybody thinks that corporate involvement with Linux has got anything to do with anything but a reduction in overhead,-nice stuff if you can afford to smoke it. It seems to me the biggest risk is if the IHVs say fuck it and driver support drives up. The second risk is that the linux is cool factor is all fucked up by these sheenanigans. I know the Debian Developers say they don't care if anybody uses it but them, but still. Then again, I don't want it to get *too* popular. I started collecting mp3s off of usenet in '97, and it wasn't until everybody and their 12-year old brother started doing it that it became an issue. I like my technologies medium-sized, a certain barrier is useful. H.P., slandered as it has been, appears to have been the only corporate body that has exhibited any real long term commitment, so far. I have to say I was a Carley basher (she seemed California-phoney to me, that was probably me projecting my own hangups), but she's delivered the goods and made a buck. She earned my respect. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
