Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements

[mick crane]

On 2018-10-30 20:54, Curt wrote:

On 2018-10-30, mick crane  wrote:


I'm using getmail with dovecot deliver since fetchmail stopped working
with gmail changing the ssl certificate ( server ) all the bloody 
time.

getmail doesn't have this problem for me although there is still a
problem with gmail insisting on keeping deleted mail ( gone from IMAP
inbox) in "all mail".


I believe there is a setting to prevent it from insisting on this (IOW
to make it act like a conforming IMAP implementation in this regard).


just looked and it all seems to be working as expected, maybe something 
changed.



--
Key ID4BFEBB31

Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements

[Curt]

On 2018-10-30, mick crane  wrote:
>
> I'm using getmail with dovecot deliver since fetchmail stopped working 
> with gmail changing the ssl certificate ( server ) all the bloody time.
> getmail doesn't have this problem for me although there is still a 
> problem with gmail insisting on keeping deleted mail ( gone from IMAP 
> inbox) in "all mail".

I believe there is a setting to prevent it from insisting on this (IOW
to make it act like a conforming IMAP implementation in this regard).

-- 
When you have fever you are heavy and light, you are small and swollen, you
climb endlessly a ladder which turns like a wheel. 
--Jean Rhys, Voyage in the Dark

Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements

[mick crane]

On 2018-10-30 19:23, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 03:03:05PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
As a long term, 20 years or so, use of an isp who used qmail, by djb, 
I
was rather put off by its instant acceptance of what was patently 
spam,
and finally switching because the place was sold and I lost that 
account


qmail is great, but the qmail-smtpd that comes with it is not.  Any
serious qmail admin in 2018 has to understand that, and replace it with
something else.  There are a few drop-in replacements for it, but sadly
qmail is dying out.  I think many of the former qmail admins have
migrated to postfix.

I'm currently using qmail + qpsmtpd.  Setting up qpsmtpd is several 
times

harder than setting up qmail.

Handling incoming mail is just *hard*.


polishes glasses and rereads previous mail.

--
Key ID4BFEBB31

Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements

[mick crane]

On 2018-10-30 19:03, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Tuesday 30 October 2018 13:31:05 Greg Wooledge wrote:


On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 01:27:19PM -0400, Celejar wrote:
> Probably better:
>
> http://pyropus.ca/software/getmail/
> https://packages.debian.org/sid/getmail
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getmail
> http://pyropus.ca/software/getmail/faq.html#faq-about-why

Interesting.  I haven't used fetchmail in a *long* time (think
dial-up), so I wasn't aware of the issues in that FAQ.


As a long term, probably 15+ years user of fetchmail, I've never found 
it
hard to configure, and the only incoming I didn't get was what 
procmail,

as the mda agent didn't like from clamav, even spam comes on in and
kmail sorts it to a spam directory. That which is virii, procmail puts
in /var/spool/virii instead of delivering it to me.

As a long term, 20 years or so, use of an isp who used qmail, by djb, I
was rather put off by its instant acceptance of what was patently spam,
and finally switching because the place was sold and I lost that 
account

since I'd been retired 13 years already, I switched to my isp's dovecot
server, and 99% of the spam disappeared. Their install of dovecot
includes its also being a pop3 server, but because 99% of Shentels 
users

are rigged for imap, fetchmails ability to delete a successfully
transferred email has been defaulted to off. But I can and do log in
about daily and clean it out with FF.

If I was to switch to getmail, would getmail then be able to delete a
fetched email from this dovecot server which I am currently accessing 
as

a pop3 client.

Found the docs, s/b well explained there. But the initial setup would 
be

a bunch easier if it was all printed out so I had the step by step in
hand. Can FF do a decent job of the html versions?  Or do I need to
extract the .gz's and load them into geany for conversion to paper
copies?

Many Thanks to anyone familiar with this.


I'm using getmail with dovecot deliver since fetchmail stopped working 
with gmail changing the ssl certificate ( server ) all the bloody time.
getmail doesn't have this problem for me although there is still a 
problem with gmail insisting on keeping deleted mail ( gone from IMAP 
inbox) in "all mail".
Other people seem to manage from the getmail mailing list so I probably 
haven't got the syntax quite right in getmairc.

dunno about pop.

mick

--
Key ID4BFEBB31

Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements

[Greg Wooledge]

On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 03:03:05PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> As a long term, 20 years or so, use of an isp who used qmail, by djb, I 
> was rather put off by its instant acceptance of what was patently spam, 
> and finally switching because the place was sold and I lost that account 

qmail is great, but the qmail-smtpd that comes with it is not.  Any
serious qmail admin in 2018 has to understand that, and replace it with
something else.  There are a few drop-in replacements for it, but sadly
qmail is dying out.  I think many of the former qmail admins have
migrated to postfix.

I'm currently using qmail + qpsmtpd.  Setting up qpsmtpd is several times
harder than setting up qmail.

Handling incoming mail is just *hard*.

Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 30 October 2018 13:31:05 Greg Wooledge wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 01:27:19PM -0400, Celejar wrote:
> > Probably better:
> >
> > http://pyropus.ca/software/getmail/
> > https://packages.debian.org/sid/getmail
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getmail
> > http://pyropus.ca/software/getmail/faq.html#faq-about-why
>
> Interesting.  I haven't used fetchmail in a *long* time (think
> dial-up), so I wasn't aware of the issues in that FAQ.

As a long term, probably 15+ years user of fetchmail, I've never found it 
hard to configure, and the only incoming I didn't get was what procmail, 
as the mda agent didn't like from clamav, even spam comes on in and 
kmail sorts it to a spam directory. That which is virii, procmail puts 
in /var/spool/virii instead of delivering it to me.

As a long term, 20 years or so, use of an isp who used qmail, by djb, I 
was rather put off by its instant acceptance of what was patently spam, 
and finally switching because the place was sold and I lost that account 
since I'd been retired 13 years already, I switched to my isp's dovecot 
server, and 99% of the spam disappeared. Their install of dovecot 
includes its also being a pop3 server, but because 99% of Shentels users 
are rigged for imap, fetchmails ability to delete a successfully 
transferred email has been defaulted to off. But I can and do log in 
about daily and clean it out with FF.

If I was to switch to getmail, would getmail then be able to delete a 
fetched email from this dovecot server which I am currently accessing as 
a pop3 client.

Found the docs, s/b well explained there. But the initial setup would be 
a bunch easier if it was all printed out so I had the step by step in 
hand. Can FF do a decent job of the html versions?  Or do I need to 
extract the .gz's and load them into geany for conversion to paper 
copies?

Many Thanks to anyone familiar with this.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements

[Greg Wooledge]

On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 01:27:19PM -0400, Celejar wrote:
> Probably better:
> 
> http://pyropus.ca/software/getmail/
> https://packages.debian.org/sid/getmail
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getmail
> http://pyropus.ca/software/getmail/faq.html#faq-about-why

Interesting.  I haven't used fetchmail in a *long* time (think dial-up),
so I wasn't aware of the issues in that FAQ.

Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements

[Celejar]

On Thu, 25 Oct 2018 16:31:47 -0400
Greg Wooledge  wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 09:19:02PM +0100, Andrew Wood wrote:
> > I chose Haiku becuase the MUA is unique - it doesnt have a typcial GUI it
> > simply periodically downloads mail from an IMAP/POP server into a folder.
> > MailMistress gets notified when the contents of this folder is updated,
> > processes the incoming message and sends it out via the Haiku MUA which
> > talks SMTP to the MTA, hence it works behind NAT etc.
> 
> http://www.fetchmail.info/
> https://packages.debian.org/stretch/fetchmail

Probably better:

http://pyropus.ca/software/getmail/
https://packages.debian.org/sid/getmail
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getmail
http://pyropus.ca/software/getmail/faq.html#faq-about-why

Celejar

Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements

[Greg Wooledge]

On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 09:19:02PM +0100, Andrew Wood wrote:
> I chose Haiku becuase the MUA is unique - it doesnt have a typcial GUI it
> simply periodically downloads mail from an IMAP/POP server into a folder.
> MailMistress gets notified when the contents of this folder is updated,
> processes the incoming message and sends it out via the Haiku MUA which
> talks SMTP to the MTA, hence it works behind NAT etc.

http://www.fetchmail.info/
https://packages.debian.org/stretch/fetchmail

Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements

[Andrew Wood]

Sorry forgot link

https://github.com/bluedalmatian/mailmistress


On 25/10/2018 21:19, Andrew Wood wrote:



On 24/10/2018 19:26, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:


�

I tried looking up Haiku, and I got a little mixed up

�

Haiku is an open source reimplementation of the BeOS, its Unix like, 
it has a bash command line but also its own built in GUI (not X based).
You can find out more at www.haiku-os.org and download an ISO of the 
Beta 1 release which will run on most PC hardware or under QEMU etc.



�

Do you have any idea how hard it might be to convert to use on Linux? 
Is the program written in C? Was it, by any chance, compiled with GCC?


�

Any idea how hard it would be to convert to, for example, use just an 
ASCII text file as the list of subscribers?


�

And, I guess it talks to an ISP -- POP3 in and SMTP out?

�

�

�




The BeOS/Haiku API is C++ based and that is what MailMistress is 
written in yes its compiled by GCC and has a Makefile. Due to its 
heavy use of the Be API and the fact that it relies on the Be/Haiku 
built in MUA it wouldnt be very feasible to port it to Linux.


I chose Haiku becuase the MUA is unique - it doesnt have a typcial GUI 
it simply periodically downloads mail from an IMAP/POP server into a 
folder. MailMistress gets notified when the contents of this folder is 
updated, processes the incoming message and sends it out via the Haiku 
MUA which talks SMTP to the MTA, hence it works behind NAT etc.
If you're interested in playing about with it the best thing to do 
would be to read the Readme file in the Github repository and see if 
it sounds suitable.


A text file could be used for the recipient addresses yes you would 
just need to write a program in any language you want to read the 
addresses from that text file and pass them to MailMistress as per the 
instructions in the readme - see section 5 'Authentication Program 
Plug in Dont mind assisting you with trying it out if you need help.

Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements

[Andrew Wood]

On 24/10/2018 19:26, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:


I tried looking up Haiku, and I got a little mixed up

Haiku is an open source reimplementation of the BeOS, its Unix like, it 
has a bash command line but also its own built in GUI (not X based).
You can find out more at www.haiku-os.org and download an ISO of the 
Beta 1 release which will run on most PC hardware or under QEMU etc.


Do you have any idea how hard it might be to convert to use on Linux? 
Is the program written in C? Was it, by any chance, compiled with GCC?


Any idea how hard it would be to convert to, for example, use just an 
ASCII text file as the list of subscribers?


And, I guess it talks to an ISP -- POP3 in and SMTP out?




The BeOS/Haiku API is C++ based and that is what MailMistress is written 
in yes its compiled by GCC and has a Makefile. Due to its heavy use of 
the Be API and the fact that it relies on the Be/Haiku built in MUA it 
wouldnt be very feasible to port it to Linux.


I chose Haiku becuase the MUA is unique - it doesnt have a typcial GUI 
it simply periodically downloads mail from an IMAP/POP server into a 
folder. MailMistress gets notified when the contents of this folder is 
updated, processes the incoming message and sends it out via the Haiku 
MUA which talks SMTP to the MTA, hence it works behind NAT etc.
If you're interested in playing about with it the best thing to do would 
be to read the Readme file in the Github repository and see if it sounds 
suitable.


A text file could be used for the recipient addresses yes you would just 
need to write a program in any language you want to read the addresses 
from that text file and pass them to MailMistress as per the 
instructions in the readme - see section 5 'Authentication Program Plug 
in Dont mind assisting you with trying it out if you need help.

Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements

[Cindy-Sue Causey]

On 10/24/18, Joe  wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Oct 2018 17:56:30 +0100
> mick crane  wrote:
>
>>
>> It's not very PC but disqus seems to work
>
> sometimes.


What Joe said...

It does work on dialup...

"sometimes."

Cindy :)
-- 
Cindy-Sue Causey
Talking Rock, Pickens County, Georgia, USA

* runs with duct tape *

Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements

[Greg Wooledge]

On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 09:52:20PM +0100, Joe wrote:
> I've always found it odd that the country that invented the Internet
> seems to have such poor Internet provision. We (UK) have the choice of
> at least half a dozen major ISPs, all delivering fibre to the local
> cabinet, i.e. 40-80Mb/s, at least in cities and towns. Rural is a bit
> patchy.

You also have a lot less land area to cover.  But you do have a valid
point -- consumer-level availability and quality of Internet service in
the US is lagging far behind much of Europe.

Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements

[Joe]

On Wed, 24 Oct 2018 15:09:37 -0400
Miles Fidelman  wrote:

> On 10/24/18 2:05 PM, Joe wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, 24 Oct 2018 12:47:10 -0400
> > Miles Fidelman  wrote:
> >  

> >>
> >> Re. ISP objections - those objections sometimes take the form of
> >> active measures that block various kinds of traffic.  
> > Then they're not a proper ISP. I pay for an *Internet* connection,
> > not just the forwarding of a few ports that are convenient for the
> > provider.  
> 
> You can argue what constitutes proper or not, if you want a
> connection with any level of bandwidth, you're talking a major
> carrier - and they deliver the service that they want to.

I've always found it odd that the country that invented the Internet
seems to have such poor Internet provision. We (UK) have the choice of
at least half a dozen major ISPs, all delivering fibre to the local
cabinet, i.e. 40-80Mb/s, at least in cities and towns. Rural is a bit
patchy.

Two of them are fairly professional, another one very much so but
expensive, the rest are domestic who wouldn't know a fixed IP address if
it bit them. There are also many small ISPs who buy wholesale from
BT, the national phone company. But there's plenty of genuine
competition, and at least three of the ISPs will provide a fixed IP
address and no messing about with blocking. BT itself will also
provide fixed IP but unfortunately with a domestic level of customer
service, even on its 'business' accounts. 

As to bandwidth, I'd have thought a private mailing list would have
fairly small requirements, at least compared with a houseful of teens
streaming films...

-- 
Joe

Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements

[Miles Fidelman]

On 10/24/18 2:05 PM, Joe wrote:


On Wed, 24 Oct 2018 12:47:10 -0400
Miles Fidelman  wrote:


On 10/24/18 6:45 AM, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:


On Wednesday, October 24, 2018 12:32:15 AM Miles Fidelman wrote:
  

Yes, but you really need a PUBLIC static IP address, or things
tend to
  

get hairy.  Dynamic DNS will help, but only to a point.  And, a
lot of
  

ISPs really don't like it if you run servers at the edge.

We are currently such a small group, I don't think it will be an
issue -- if that changes, we can change.
  

Which - DynDNS or ISP objections?

The thing about dynamic DNS is that people cache DNS records - mail
sent to the list WILL go to the wrong place on occasion.

Re. ISP objections - those objections sometimes take the form of
active measures that block various kinds of traffic.

Then they're not a proper ISP. I pay for an *Internet* connection, not
just the forwarding of a few ports that are convenient for the provider.


You can argue what constitutes proper or not, if you want a connection 
with any level of bandwidth, you're talking a major carrier - and they 
deliver the service that they want to.





Bummer.  But maybe another, larger, Linux user group might help
you
  

out?  I expect there might be somebody on this list who might
volunteer
  

(hint, hint).  Maybe somebody at a nearby university - I believe
you
  

have a few of those in the Lehigh Valley :-)

We've had somebody make such an offer, and we'll probably take them
up on it -- I sort of wanted to try to set up a small mail list on
one of my computers, as long as I didn't have to run a web server
or a *nix style MTA
  

Now that is kind of hard to do.  All the mailing list servers that
I've worked with require a rather intimate interconnection with the
MTA that processes mail.  And that's before you "wire in" anti-spam
and anti-virus filters.  And, you'll need a webserver for access to
various administrative functions, and archive access.  Depending on
the list server, you might also require a dbms.  Setting up list
services can be an entertaining and educational exercise (also
frustrating), but it's not simple.  (Actually, the simplest approach
is using an MTA and managing lists in the alias file.)

There's no technical problem to using a local MTA and your ISP's SMTP
server as a proxy.


You still need a local MTA - which the OP doesn't seem to want to run.

--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.   Yogi Berra

Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements

[Miles Fidelman]

On 10/24/18 2:30 PM, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:


Ahh, a useful clue -- so the mail lists that list procmail as a dependency
(and no MTA) might meet my desires of being able to run a mail list without
setting up an MTA on my own machine.



No.

Procmail is primarily a LOCAL delivery agent - generally attached to a 
local MTA.  Mail for local addresses is handed to procmail, which can do 
things like sort mail into folders, return vacation messages, and so 
forth.  You might be able to coble together some basic list services, 
but only if you have an MTA to hand outgoing mail to.




--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.   Yogi Berra

Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements

[rhkramer]

On Wednesday, October 24, 2018 02:07:46 PM Reco wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 01:47:27PM -0400, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > Now that is kind of hard to do.  All the mailing list servers that I've
> > > worked with require a rather intimate interconnection with the MTA that
> > > processes mail.
> > 
> > As stated somewhere, we're almost certainly going to accept the offer to
> > host the mail list for us.
> > 
> > But, just for my education / edification, I didn't see mention of an MTA
> > for courier-pop -- have you used it and does it require that same
> > intimate connection to an MTA?
> 
> courier-pop is not a Mail Transfer Agent. It cannot send or receive
> e-mail, it's a POP3 server.
> courier-mta, as all other MTAs, supposedly requires a very specific
> configuration to be suitable for a maillist.
> 
> > And the only dependency listed for quickml is ruby, so I'm guessing that
> > might not require that intimate connection.
> 
> The thing comes with the very primitive MTA indeed.
> I only judge by the quick look at the sources, but this 'QuickML MTA'
> seem to lack even basic sanity checks such as HELO/EHLO parsing, PTR
> checks or RCPT validity check. And it may, or may not be an open relay.
> In short - it gives an impression of a spammer wet dream.
> 
> > (And, talking to myself, I saw several others that mentioned procmail,
> > and I didn't immediately consider that an MTA because I have used it in
> > the past but only for its mail filtering function.  (Or am I thinking of
> > a different package?))
> 
> Likewise, procmail is not an MTA, it's a Mail Delivery Agent - MDA.
> The purpose of a procmail is to classify and deliver e-mail, not to send
> or receive it.

Ahh, a useful clue -- so the mail lists that list procmail as a dependency 
(and no MTA) might meet my desires of being able to run a mail list without 
setting up an MTA on my own machine.

So, I may look a little at those, even though I'm about 95% certain that we're 
going to let someone else host the mail list.

Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements

[rhkramer]

On Wednesday, October 24, 2018 01:51:32 PM Andrew Wood wrote:
> Ok this is not Linux its Haiku based but I wrote an open source mailing
> list system called MailMistress which is on Github for situations where
> you need to run a list on a machine without a public IP or where you
> want to interface the database of subscribers to an existing system. In
> our case we have a MySQL database of society members and MailMistress
> connects to that - you just write a connector script/program.
> 
> If its of interest I can provide further details.

Thanks for the reply!

Well, it is of some interest, if only for my own edification / education.

I tried looking up Haiku, and I got a little mixed up -- Wikipedia says Haiku 
is an OS:


Haiku is a free and open-source operating system compatible with the now 
discontinued BeOS. Its development began in 2001, and the operating system 
became self-hosting in 2008. The first alpha release was made in September 
2009, and the most recent was November 2012; development is ongoing as of 2018 
with nightly releases.More at Wikipedia 


but then I downloaded the first .pdf / page of something named "Learning to 
Program with Haiku", Lessons by DarkWyrm, and that (very elementary) page 
seems to discuss programming in C -- I thought from the title Haiku might be a 
programming language.

Anyway, I'm a little reluctant to put you to much trouble if I don't think I 
can either learn from it or use it.

Do you have any idea how hard it might be to convert to use on Linux?  Is the 
program written in C?  Was it, by any chance, compiled with GCC?

Any idea how hard it would be to convert to, for example, use just an ASCII 
text file as the list of subscribers?

And, I guess it talks to an ISP -- POP3 in and SMTP out?

Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements

[Reco]

On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 01:47:27PM -0400, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Now that is kind of hard to do.  All the mailing list servers that I've
> > worked with require a rather intimate interconnection with the MTA that
> > processes mail.  
> 
> As stated somewhere, we're almost certainly going to accept the offer to host 
> the mail list for us.
> 
> But, just for my education / edification, I didn't see mention of an MTA for 
> courier-pop -- have you used it and does it require that same intimate 
> connection to an MTA?

courier-pop is not a Mail Transfer Agent. It cannot send or receive
e-mail, it's a POP3 server.
courier-mta, as all other MTAs, supposedly requires a very specific
configuration to be suitable for a maillist.


> And the only dependency listed for quickml is ruby, so I'm guessing that 
> might 
> not require that intimate connection.

The thing comes with the very primitive MTA indeed.
I only judge by the quick look at the sources, but this 'QuickML MTA'
seem to lack even basic sanity checks such as HELO/EHLO parsing, PTR
checks or RCPT validity check. And it may, or may not be an open relay.
In short - it gives an impression of a spammer wet dream.


> (And, talking to myself, I saw several others that mentioned procmail, and I 
> didn't immediately consider that an MTA because I have used it in the past 
> but 
> only for its mail filtering function.  (Or am I thinking of a different 
> package?))

Likewise, procmail is not an MTA, it's a Mail Delivery Agent - MDA.
The purpose of a procmail is to classify and deliver e-mail, not to send
or receive it.

Reco

Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements

[Joe]

On Wed, 24 Oct 2018 12:47:10 -0400
Miles Fidelman  wrote:

> On 10/24/18 6:45 AM, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> > On Wednesday, October 24, 2018 12:32:15 AM Miles Fidelman wrote:
> >  
> > > Yes, but you really need a PUBLIC static IP address, or things
> > > tend to  
> >  
> > > get hairy.  Dynamic DNS will help, but only to a point.  And, a
> > > lot of  
> >  
> > > ISPs really don't like it if you run servers at the edge.  
> >
> > We are currently such a small group, I don't think it will be an
> > issue -- if that changes, we can change.
> >  
> 
> Which - DynDNS or ISP objections?
> 
> The thing about dynamic DNS is that people cache DNS records - mail
> sent to the list WILL go to the wrong place on occasion.
> 
> Re. ISP objections - those objections sometimes take the form of
> active measures that block various kinds of traffic.

Then they're not a proper ISP. I pay for an *Internet* connection, not
just the forwarding of a few ports that are convenient for the provider.

> 
> > > Bummer.  But maybe another, larger, Linux user group might help
> > > you  
> >  
> > > out?  I expect there might be somebody on this list who might
> > > volunteer  
> >  
> > > (hint, hint).  Maybe somebody at a nearby university - I believe
> > > you  
> >  
> > > have a few of those in the Lehigh Valley :-)  
> >
> > We've had somebody make such an offer, and we'll probably take them
> > up on it -- I sort of wanted to try to set up a small mail list on
> > one of my computers, as long as I didn't have to run a web server
> > or a *nix style MTA
> >  
> Now that is kind of hard to do.  All the mailing list servers that
> I've worked with require a rather intimate interconnection with the
> MTA that processes mail.  And that's before you "wire in" anti-spam
> and anti-virus filters.  And, you'll need a webserver for access to
> various administrative functions, and archive access.  Depending on
> the list server, you might also require a dbms.  Setting up list
> services can be an entertaining and educational exercise (also
> frustrating), but it's not simple.  (Actually, the simplest approach
> is using an MTA and managing lists in the alias file.)

There's no technical problem to using a local MTA and your ISP's SMTP
server as a proxy.

-- 
Joe

Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements

[Joe]

On Wed, 24 Oct 2018 17:56:30 +0100
mick crane  wrote:

>
> 
> It's not very PC but disqus seems to work
>

sometimes.

-- 
Joe

Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements

[Andrew Wood]

Ok this is not Linux its Haiku based but I wrote an open source mailing 
list system called MailMistress which is on Github for situations where 
you need to run a list on a machine without a public IP or where you 
want to interface the database of subscribers to an existing system. In 
our case we have a MySQL database of society members and MailMistress 
connects to that - you just write a connector script/program.


If its of interest I can provide further details.


On 24/10/2018 17:47, Miles Fidelman wrote:


On 10/24/18 6:45 AM, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:


On Wednesday, October 24, 2018 12:32:15 AM Miles Fidelman wrote:

> Yes, but you really need a PUBLIC static IP address, or things tend to

> get hairy.� Dynamic DNS will help, but only to a point.� And, a lot of

> ISPs really don't like it if you run servers at the edge.

We are currently such a small group, I don't think it will be an 
issue -- if that changes, we can change.




Which - DynDNS or ISP objections?

The thing about dynamic DNS is that people cache DNS records - mail 
sent to the list WILL go to the wrong place on occasion.


Re. ISP objections - those objections sometimes take the form of 
active measures that block various kinds of traffic.



> Bummer.� But maybe another, larger, Linux user group might help you

> out?� I expect there might be somebody on this list who might volunteer

> (hint, hint).� Maybe somebody at a nearby university - I believe you

> have a few of those in the Lehigh Valley :-)

We've had somebody make such an offer, and we'll probably take them 
up on it -- I sort of wanted to try to set up a small mail list on 
one of my computers, as long as I didn't have to run a web server or 
a *nix style MTA


Now that is kind of hard to do.� All the mailing list servers that 
I've worked with require a rather intimate interconnection with the 
MTA that processes mail.� And that's before you "wire in" anti-spam 
and anti-virus filters.� And, you'll need a webserver for access to 
various administrative functions, and archive access.� Depending on 
the list server, you might also require a dbms.� Setting up list 
services can be an entertaining and educational exercise (also 
frustrating), but it's not simple. (Actually, the simplest approach is 
using an MTA and managing lists in the alias file.)


Miles Fidelman

--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.   Yogi Berra

Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements

[rhkramer]

Thanks for the reply! -- some comments below:

On Wednesday, October 24, 2018 12:47:10 PM Miles Fidelman wrote:
> On 10/24/18 6:45 AM, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 24, 2018 12:32:15 AM Miles Fidelman wrote:
> > > Yes, but you really need a PUBLIC static IP address, or things tend to
> > > 
> > > get hairy.  Dynamic DNS will help, but only to a point.  And, a lot of
> > > 
> > > ISPs really don't like it if you run servers at the edge.
> > 
> > We are currently such a small group, I don't think it will be an issue
> > -- if that changes, we can change.
> 
> Which - DynDNS or ISP objections?

I don't think ISP objections will be an issue with the size or our group (and 
the apparent reluctance of many to post).

> The thing about dynamic DNS is that people cache DNS records - mail sent
> to the list WILL go to the wrong place on occasion.
> 
> Re. ISP objections - those objections sometimes take the form of active
> measures that block various kinds of traffic.
> 
> > > Bummer.  But maybe another, larger, Linux user group might help you
> > > 
> > > out?  I expect there might be somebody on this list who might volunteer
> > > 
> > > (hint, hint).  Maybe somebody at a nearby university - I believe you
> > > 
> > > have a few of those in the Lehigh Valley :-)
> > 
> > We've had somebody make such an offer, and we'll probably take them up
> > on it -- I sort of wanted to try to set up a small mail list on one of
> > my computers, as long as I didn't have to run a web server or a *nix
> > style MTA
> 
> Now that is kind of hard to do.  All the mailing list servers that I've
> worked with require a rather intimate interconnection with the MTA that
> processes mail.  

As stated somewhere, we're almost certainly going to accept the offer to host 
the mail list for us.

But, just for my education / edification, I didn't see mention of an MTA for 
courier-pop -- have you used it and does it require that same intimate 
connection to an MTA?

And the only dependency listed for quickml is ruby, so I'm guessing that might 
not require that intimate connection.

(And, talking to myself, I saw several others that mentioned procmail, and I 
didn't immediately consider that an MTA because I have used it in the past but 
only for its mail filtering function.  (Or am I thinking of a different 
package?))


















> And that's before you "wire in" anti-spam and
> anti-virus filters.  And, you'll need a webserver for access to various
> administrative functions, and archive access.  Depending on the list
> server, you might also require a dbms.  Setting up list services can be
> an entertaining and educational exercise (also frustrating), but it's
> not simple.  (Actually, the simplest approach is using an MTA and
> managing lists in the alias file.)

Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements

[Miles Fidelman]

On 10/24/18 12:56 PM, mick crane wrote:

On 2018-10-24 17:47, Miles Fidelman wrote:

We've had somebody make such an offer, and we'll probably take them 
up on it -- I sort of wanted to try to set up a small mail list on 
one of my computers, as long as I didn't have to run a web server or 
a *nix style MTA



Now that is kind of hard to do.  All the mailing list servers that
I've worked with require a rather intimate interconnection with the
MTA that processes mail.  And that's before you "wire in" anti-spam
and anti-virus filters.  And, you'll need a webserver for access to
various administrative functions, and archive access.  Depending on
the list server, you might also require a dbms.  Setting up list
services can be an entertaining and educational exercise (also
frustrating), but it's not simple.  (Actually, the simplest approach
is using an MTA and managing lists in the alias file.)



It's not very PC but disqus seems to work


Ummm... Disqus is
- not a mailing list server, it's a forum
- it's a hosted service, not something one can set up on one's own 
server, much less a desktop




--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.   Yogi Berra

Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements

[mick crane]

On 2018-10-24 17:47, Miles Fidelman wrote:

We've had somebody make such an offer, and we'll probably take them up 
on it -- I sort of wanted to try to set up a small mail list on one of 
my computers, as long as I didn't have to run a web server or a *nix 
style MTA



Now that is kind of hard to do.  All the mailing list servers that
I've worked with require a rather intimate interconnection with the
MTA that processes mail.  And that's before you "wire in" anti-spam
and anti-virus filters.  And, you'll need a webserver for access to
various administrative functions, and archive access.  Depending on
the list server, you might also require a dbms.  Setting up list
services can be an entertaining and educational exercise (also
frustrating), but it's not simple.  (Actually, the simplest approach
is using an MTA and managing lists in the alias file.)



It's not very PC but disqus seems to work

mick




--
Key ID4BFEBB31

Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements

[Miles Fidelman]

On 10/24/18 6:45 AM, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:


On Wednesday, October 24, 2018 12:32:15 AM Miles Fidelman wrote:

> Yes, but you really need a PUBLIC static IP address, or things tend to

> get hairy.  Dynamic DNS will help, but only to a point.  And, a lot of

> ISPs really don't like it if you run servers at the edge.

We are currently such a small group, I don't think it will be an issue 
-- if that changes, we can change.




Which - DynDNS or ISP objections?

The thing about dynamic DNS is that people cache DNS records - mail sent 
to the list WILL go to the wrong place on occasion.


Re. ISP objections - those objections sometimes take the form of active 
measures that block various kinds of traffic.



> Bummer.  But maybe another, larger, Linux user group might help you

> out?  I expect there might be somebody on this list who might volunteer

> (hint, hint).  Maybe somebody at a nearby university - I believe you

> have a few of those in the Lehigh Valley :-)

We've had somebody make such an offer, and we'll probably take them up 
on it -- I sort of wanted to try to set up a small mail list on one of 
my computers, as long as I didn't have to run a web server or a *nix 
style MTA


Now that is kind of hard to do.  All the mailing list servers that I've 
worked with require a rather intimate interconnection with the MTA that 
processes mail.  And that's before you "wire in" anti-spam and 
anti-virus filters.  And, you'll need a webserver for access to various 
administrative functions, and archive access.  Depending on the list 
server, you might also require a dbms.  Setting up list services can be 
an entertaining and educational exercise (also frustrating), but it's 
not simple.  (Actually, the simplest approach is using an MTA and 
managing lists in the alias file.)


Miles Fidelman

--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.   Yogi Berra

Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements

[rhkramer]

BTW, I'm on the mailing list, so you don't need to copy me directly.

On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 08:12:13 PM rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 11:51:21 AM Dan Ritter wrote:
> > You have a weird restriction:
> I was trying to usurp Richard Owlett's position ;-)
> 
> > "I don't want it to depend on (or be) an MTA"
> > 
> > and MTA is pretty much the definition of "can receive and send
> > arbitrary email messages", which is what you need.
> > 
> > courier is an MTA.
> > 
> > enemies-of-carlotta and the others you mention depend on having
> > at least some MTA available to them.
> > 
> > Given your restriction, you need a service.

I guess I could clarify -- I don't mind if the mailing list software uses my 
ISP's MTA, I don't want to have one on my own machine.  (Note that I don't 
consider kmail as being an MTA, but instead, being a Windows-style (mcow -- my 
choice of words) email client, using POP3 and SMTP to communicate to my ISP 
(and maybe to their MTA).

Anyway, as stated below, we'll probably use the service that has been 
volunteered to us.

> Thanks for your reply!
> 
> I'm going to ramble for a minute:
> 
>* kmail, afaik, is not an MTA, but it can send and receive arbitrary
> email messages, so I thought that there might be a mail list manager that
> can do the same (I sometimes call that kind of thing a Windows-style email
> client)
> 
>* I guess I read the dependencies for courier-pop wrong, becaust it does
> seem to require an MTA, but, the other software I had on that list did not
> list either an MTA or a web server (unless I misread some of those, also)
> 
> But, if none of those work, I'll go for a service -- one has already been
> graciously volunteered to us.

Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements

[rhkramer]

On Wednesday, October 24, 2018 12:32:15 AM Miles Fidelman wrote:
> Yes, but you really need a PUBLIC static IP address, or things tend to
> get hairy.  Dynamic DNS will help, but only to a point.  And, a lot of
> ISPs really don't like it if you run servers at the edge.  

We are currently such a small group, I don't think it will be an issue -- if 
that changes, we can change.

> Bummer.  But maybe another, larger, Linux user group might help you
> out?  I expect there might be somebody on this list who might volunteer
> (hint, hint).  Maybe somebody at a nearby university - I believe you
> have a few of those in the Lehigh Valley :-)

We've had somebody make such an offer, and we'll probably take them up on it -- 
I sort of wanted to try to set up a small mail list on one of my computers, as 
long as I didn't have to run a web server or a *nix style MTA

Thanks!

Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements

[Miles Fidelman]

On 10/23/18 8:16 PM, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:


On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 11:04:52 AM Miles Fidelman wrote:

Speaking from experience:  Running your own server is a bit of a pain -
to setup, and to administer,

Must be my day to reply to email messages ;-)  Yes, I've tried that before.


and it's best done on a server with a
static IP address, not on a desktop behind a NAT router.

My desktop has a static IP address, behind a NAT router.  (But it is an
address in one of the private ranges (192.168.n.n)


Yes, but you really need a PUBLIC static IP address, or things tend to 
get hairy.  Dynamic DNS will help, but only to a point.  And, a lot of 
ISPs really don't like it if you run servers at the edge.  If you really 
want to run a server on your desktop, you need an ISP that will sell you 
both a business grade line and a static IP address.



(Sympa is what
I recommend for those who want to run their own, by the way.)

For simple things, I hate to recommend it, but google groups is about as
free & easy as it gets.

I don't know why I didn't really think of that, but I guess the times I've
been involved with groups that used it, there were things I didn't like about
it, but I may look again.
  

Otherwise, I expect somebody in your membership might have a corporate
machine they'd host you on.

No, we're a small group, mostly retirees at this point (I think).  When I
asked at the last meeting, nobody had anything to offer.


Bummer.  But maybe another, larger, Linux user group might help you 
out?  I expect there might be somebody on this list who might volunteer 
(hint, hint).  Maybe somebody at a nearby university - I believe you 
have a few of those in the Lehigh Valley :-)


Best,

Miles

--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.   Yogi Berra

Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements

[rhkramer]

On Tuesday, October 23, 2018 11:04:52 AM Miles Fidelman wrote:
> Speaking from experience:  Running your own server is a bit of a pain -
> to setup, and to administer, 

Must be my day to reply to email messages ;-)  Yes, I've tried that before.

> and it's best done on a server with a
> static IP address, not on a desktop behind a NAT router. 

My desktop has a static IP address, behind a NAT router.  (But it is an 
address in one of the private ranges (192.168.n.n)

> (Sympa is what
> I recommend for those who want to run their own, by the way.)
> 
> For simple things, I hate to recommend it, but google groups is about as
> free & easy as it gets.

I don't know why I didn't really think of that, but I guess the times I've 
been involved with groups that used it, there were things I didn't like about 
it, but I may look again.
 
> Otherwise, I expect somebody in your membership might have a corporate
> machine they'd host you on.

No, we're a small group, mostly retirees at this point (I think).  When I 
asked at the last meeting, nobody had anything to offer.

Have a good day!

Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements

[Dan Ritter]

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 09:53:57AM -0400, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> I want to establish a mailing list for the group.
> 
> I want to find either:
> 
>* a "service" that would host a mailing list for the group for free
> 
>* or, put a (simple) mailing list application on one of my machines, 
> behind 
> a firewall (well, NAT) and not require the use of anything that (in my mind) 
> takes a lot of work or more knowledge than I have atm to setup -- for 
> example, 
> I don't want it to depend on (or be) an MTA, Apache (or any other web 
> server), 
> or even a windows email client that I'm not using (I currently use kmail, and 
> plan to stick with it).
> 
> I'd prefer that, whatever I find, receive / retrieve posts via POP3 (via my 
> ISP) and send posts via SMTP (again, via my ISP), and I'd prefer that emails 
> be stored in mbox files (but, I could live with maildir).
> 
> I looked at packages available that might meet my needs (just by searching 
> for 
> mailing list in apper and then looking at the dependencies) -- I found the 
> following that might meet my needs -- I'll start by investigating courier 
> (the 
> pop version).
> 
>* courier-pop
>* enemies-of-carlotta
>* mimmj
>* quickml
>* schleuder
>* smartlist

You have a weird restriction:

"I don't want it to depend on (or be) an MTA"

and MTA is pretty much the definition of "can receive and send
arbitrary email messages", which is what you need.

courier is an MTA.

enemies-of-carlotta and the others you mention depend on having
at least some MTA available to them.

Given your restriction, you need a service.

-dsr-

Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements

[Miles Fidelman]

Speaking from experience:  Running your own server is a bit of a pain - 
to setup, and to administer, and it's best done on a server with a 
static IP address, not on a desktop behind a NAT router. (Sympa is what 
I recommend for those who want to run their own, by the way.)


For simple things, I hate to recommend it, but google groups is about as 
free & easy as it gets.


Otherwise, I expect somebody in your membership might have a corporate 
machine they'd host you on.


Miles Fidelman


On 10/23/18 9:53 AM, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:

(Aside to Jeff: Just sending you a copy of this for your information.)

Background: I am working with a Linux SIG that used to be part of a more
general computer group.  We plan to change the name to mention "LUG" (GLVLUG
-- Greater Lehigh Valley Linux User Group).

I want to establish a mailing list for the group.

I want to find either:

* a "service" that would host a mailing list for the group for free

* or, put a (simple) mailing list application on one of my machines, behind
a firewall (well, NAT) and not require the use of anything that (in my mind)
takes a lot of work or more knowledge than I have atm to setup -- for example,
I don't want it to depend on (or be) an MTA, Apache (or any other web server),
or even a windows email client that I'm not using (I currently use kmail, and
plan to stick with it).

I know I could do something in kmail by adding a mail list such that I could
send out emails to a reasonable number of people, but that doesn't solve the
problem of other people posting to the list.

I'd prefer that, whatever I find, receive / retrieve posts via POP3 (via my
ISP) and send posts via SMTP (again, via my ISP), and I'd prefer that emails
be stored in mbox files (but, I could live with maildir).

One of my machines is running Debian 7.11 (Wheezy), and the other is running
Debian 8.11 (Jessie) -- I'd probably install whatever I find on the 8.11
machine.

I looked at packages available that might meet my needs (just by searching for
mailing list in apper and then looking at the dependencies) -- I found the
following that might meet my needs -- I'll start by investigating courier (the
pop version).

* courier-pop
* enemies-of-carlotta
* mimmj
* quickml
* schleuder
* smartlist

I'd appreciate any advice anyone can offer.


--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.   Yogi Berra

Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements

[Jeremy Nicoll]

On Tue, 23 Oct 2018, at 14:53, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> (Aside to Jeff: Just sending you a copy of this for your information.)
> 
> Background: I am working with a Linux SIG that used to be part of a more 
> general computer group.  We plan to change the name to mention "LUG" (GLVLUG 
> -- Greater Lehigh Valley Linux User Group).
> 
> I want to establish a mailing list for the group.
> 
> I want to find either:
> 
>* a "service" that would host a mailing list for the group for free

Try: https://www.freelists.org/

I've been a subscriber on several mail lists hosted by them, for years, and the
service does seem solid.  As far as I know they do not offer any sort of web-
based interface for subscribers (the login option on their website is - last 
time 
I looked, anyway - for the administrator(s) of specific lists.



-- 
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

Re: Advice on mailing list software -- special requirements

[mick crane]

On 2018-10-23 14:53, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:

(Aside to Jeff: Just sending you a copy of this for your information.)

Background: I am working with a Linux SIG that used to be part of a 
more
general computer group.  We plan to change the name to mention "LUG" 
(GLVLUG

-- Greater Lehigh Valley Linux User Group).

I want to establish a mailing list for the group.


<>


believe this is Smartlist
think people still use Mailman

mick

--
Key ID4BFEBB31