Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
Stephen R Laniel wrote: On Sat, Jan 27, 2007 at 11:03:59AM -0500, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote: Please quit top posting. Here is a script that I banged out in a few minutes, which surely needs much improvement but will hopefully go some way toward making the top-posting debate -- which is surely the least interesting debate in the history of computing -- go away: http://laniels.org/scripts/top_post_fixer.pl.txt I'm not sure that will make it go away: Social problems cannot be solved through technological means. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
Steve Lamb wrote: Paul Johnson wrote: Steve Lamb wrote: Paul Johnson wrote: I think that has more to do with Opera marginalizing themselves by expecting people to put up with *more* ads or pay for a web browser. That has little to do with what the websites do with the user agent string than anything else. I don't see it that way. I see their abuse of User-Agent as pandering to get any audience and re-enforcing poor web design. Really, so what do you call it when Konquerer does it? Still not a fan. Sounds like the actual problem is that businesses should be less willing to cut off their own nose. The problem is from their perspective, they're not. I look forward to buying a used Aeron chair from their going-out-of-business fire sale. Lemme know how that goes in 10 years. I think that's being a little overoptimistic. SCO's puppetmasters are probably going to start getting tired of their repeated and spectacular failures sooner rather than later. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 02/26/07 14:53, Paul Johnson wrote: Stephen R Laniel wrote: On Sat, Jan 27, 2007 at 11:03:59AM -0500, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote: Please quit top posting. Here is a script that I banged out in a few minutes, which surely needs much improvement but will hopefully go some way toward making the top-posting debate -- which is surely the least interesting debate in the history of computing -- go away: http://laniels.org/scripts/top_post_fixer.pl.txt I'm not sure that will make it go away: Social problems cannot be solved through technological means. And you call yourself a geek!!! -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFF43VMS9HxQb37XmcRAl3sAKCOv/C31CYybkUiH62ev4X6NEs8WQCfcO7y bE+baODFT1SVyPFUpGQ71D0= =cI/5 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
Hal Vaughan wrote: On Monday 29 January 2007 18:50, Paul Johnson wrote: ... Oh, and everyone that uses e-mail spends their time reading every RFC out there. I don't expect them to. Though I do expect them to learn Damn you're demanding, aren't you? Well, the humor of watching someone put their hand on a hot stove gets old around the time they give themselves a third-degree burn. Remember you're always going to be dealing with newbies -- at least until kids grow up writing e-mail the right way, and it'll take a while for that to happen. I'm 25, I grew up doing it the right way. Though thanks for reminding me that in addition to the Echo Boomers that I'm a part of, there was a simultaneous, much dumber, Beavis and Butthead Generation competing for jobs and oxygen, and driving up the demand for food and affordable housing for the rest of us capable of independent thought. :o) I used to teach kids that age, when that show was on, in residential treatment. Some were that dense in some areas. I'd watch the show at home just because it felt so good to see such dumb students and NOT have to discipline or teach them. The social commentary about the state of the other generation and the idea that they're in as great if not somewhat greater numbers than the Echo Boomers is a deeply disturbing thought to me. I mean, the Baby Boomers were pretty bad with the hero worship when it came to politics when they elected one washed up actor to the white house, and we're still feeling that. I try not to think about how badly the other generation my age will further screw up this country by the time we're all middle aged given the standard that's been set... Oddly enough, though, it's usually Gen X'ers or Baby Boomers of questionable mental stability I've encountered with this problem. http://wiki.ursine.ca/Category:Online_lusers Face it: Usenet isn't the only place where September is eternal. September ended. AOL is gone from Usenet and is becoming more of a walled community of idiots now that it's free for the idiots to self-segregate without losing their current ISP. Yes, it isn't just AOL anymore. It's still September. Fortunately it isn't September often on some lists (like this one). Usenet's getting better, the vast majority of trolls and spam come from the same few hosts and newbies are starting to assimilate at a rate Usenet can properly handle again, which is the yardstick by which September was originally measured by... -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
Steve Lamb wrote: Paul Johnson wrote: I think that has more to do with Opera marginalizing themselves by expecting people to put up with *more* ads or pay for a web browser. That has little to do with what the websites do with the user agent string than anything else. I don't see it that way. I see their abuse of User-Agent as pandering to get any audience and re-enforcing poor web design. Sounds like the actual problem is that businesses should be less willing to cut off their own nose. The problem is from their perspective, they're not. I look forward to buying a used Aeron chair from their going-out-of-business fire sale. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
On Thu, 2007-02-01 at 19:17 -0800, Paul Johnson wrote: Steve Lamb wrote: Paul Johnson wrote: I think that has more to do with Opera marginalizing themselves by expecting people to put up with *more* ads or pay for a web browser. That has little to do with what the websites do with the user agent string than anything else. I don't see it that way. I see their abuse of User-Agent as pandering to get any audience and re-enforcing poor web design. Sounds like the actual problem is that businesses should be less willing to cut off their own nose. The problem is from their perspective, they're not. I look forward to buying a used Aeron chair from their going-out-of-business fire sale. I've already got similar stuff from those companies that already have. But what I am REALLY waiting for, is the fire sale when SCOg(formerly Caldera) happens. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Novell's Directory Services is a competitive product to Microsoft's Active Directory in much the same way that the Saturn V is a competitive product to those dinky little model rockets that kids light off down at the playfield. -- Thane Walkup signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
Paul Johnson wrote: Steve Lamb wrote: Paul Johnson wrote: I think that has more to do with Opera marginalizing themselves by expecting people to put up with *more* ads or pay for a web browser. That has little to do with what the websites do with the user agent string than anything else. I don't see it that way. I see their abuse of User-Agent as pandering to get any audience and re-enforcing poor web design. Really, so what do you call it when Konquerer does it? Sounds like the actual problem is that businesses should be less willing to cut off their own nose. The problem is from their perspective, they're not. I look forward to buying a used Aeron chair from their going-out-of-business fire sale. Lemme know how that goes in 10 years. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream? PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | And dream I do... ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
On 1/29/07, Roberto C. Sanchez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, Jan 28, 2007 at 10:29:57PM -0500, Greg Folkert wrote: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8.1.1) Gecko/20061205 Iceweasel/2.0.0.1 (Debian-2.0.0.1+dfsg-2) Wow, that's a bigg'un. The User agent string has only had one thing changed. s/Iceweasel/Firefox/ My mistake. I took it that the string went from only Firefox/2.0.0.1 to Iceweasel/2.0.0.1. Btw, Swiftfox (another ff clone) identifies as Firefox/2.0.0.1 (Swiftfox). I wonder, is usage Firefox in User-Agent also covered by trademark? Could Iceweasel do the same (i haven't had any problems due to user-agent string yet) Im using Swiftfox now instead of Iceweasel, as i can't get Restore session working. I had previously Firefox 2.0.0 installed on my Debian, but when Iceweasel came out, i decided to drop FF, as Debian offers careless updates. I wiped out everything that had firefox in it's filename, re-installed Iceweasel, but Restore still wasn't working. So, i just added deb sources for Swiftfox, and use it. Maybe somebody knows what's wrong with Restore Session feature? On another clean etch machine it's working fine in Iceweasel. Regards, Atis P.S. Firefox spellchecker dictionary didn't had word Iceweasel in it, but had of course Firefox :p -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
On Sun, Jan 28, 2007 at 10:43:44AM -0500, Hal Vaughan wrote: On Sunday 28 January 2007 06:43, Chris Bannister wrote: On Sat, Jan 27, 2007 at 12:18:09AM -0500, Hal Vaughan wrote: Now that's just mean. See my earlier response about rudeness being a weak man's imitation of strength. You've made good points in your other posts on this thread, but there is no reason to be that mean to a frustrated user. It just pours fuel on the fire and justifies those who say that Linux people are more concerned about acting superior because they think they're smart than in helping others. Shouldn't that be: ... Linux people are more concerned about acting superior than helping others because they think they're smart. :-) In the phrase they think they're you've got a problem. The word they is used twice and it's not clear whether it refers to Linux people or others. I used to teach English, but that was over a decade ago, so I can't remember, but I think it would be expressed as a pronoun without a clear antecedent. A, of course. Good catch. -- Chris. == ... the official version cannot be abandoned because the implication of rejecting it is far too disturbing: that we are subject to a government conspiracy of `X-Files' proportions and insidiousness. Letter to the LA Times Magazine, September 18, 2005. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
Atis writes: Btw, Swiftfox (another ff clone) identifies as Firefox/2.0.0.1 (Swiftfox). I wonder, is usage Firefox in User-Agent also covered by trademark? I'm not a lawyer, but I find it extremely unlikely that such use would be found to infringe the trademark. -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
On Mon, Jan 29, 2007 at 03:40:45PM -0800, Paul Johnson wrote: Hal Vaughan wrote: On Sunday 28 January 2007 18:36, Paul Johnson wrote: I took the Pepsi Challenge and they video taped it. Pepsi lost blindfolded. Funny how you didn't see me in the Pepsi ads... What makes you think that's the reason they didn't show you? ;-) I was far from the only person who came up Coke in that particular supermarket lineup. Either Portland's weird (but we already knew that), or Pepsi's marketing strategy was seriously flawed (hence marketing strategy and not scientific survey). After watching this frustrated group go through several taste testers all coming up Coke, I started to wonder if they just ran the challenge until someone finally got Pepsi and they had the footage they needed... So next time I want to drink soft drinks blindfolded, my choice is clear. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
On Wed, Jan 31, 2007 at 01:38:26AM +0100, Marcus Blumhagen wrote: On Tue, Jan 30, 2007 at 10:05:58AM -0500, Max Hyre wrote: My understanding is that IceApe (pardon the studly caps) is an unbranded version of SeaMonkey. Thus we get: Firefox - Iceweasel Thunderbird - Icedove Mozilla suite - Iceape Oops, of cause! I was confusing it a bit, beacuse of another response, which rose the question what a firefox might actually be. Anyway I think it pretty much is a humorous resembly of the Mozilla name scheme not to leave out some sarkasm in it. ^^^ namescape? Regards Marcus -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
On Sat, 27 Jan 2007 00:44:05 -0500 Hal Vaughan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How else are they going to fill up their 300GB hard drives if they can't download nudie pics? alt.binaries.movies.divx :) Hal -- David E. Fox Thanks for letting me [EMAIL PROTECTED]change magnetic patterns [EMAIL PROTECTED] on your hard disk. --- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
On Sun, Jan 28, 2007 at 08:47:45PM +0100, Jan Willem Stumpel wrote:
Then there are the new names and logos themselves. What is an
Iceape? How should this beast be pronounced?
As I read the name it is a combination of ice and ape. Both can
be looked up in a dictionary. So now instead of a burning fox (or
whatever firefox might mean) one gets a freezing (or is it frozen?)
ape. Excerpt from Webster:
Ape \Ape\ ([=a]p), n. [AS. apa; akin to D. aap, OHG. affo, G.
affe, Icel. api, Sw. apa, Dan. abe, W. epa.]
1. (Zool.) A quadrumanous mammal, esp. of the family
{Simiad[ae]}, having teeth of the same number and form as
in man, and possessing neither a tail nor cheek pouches.
The name is applied esp. to species of the genus
{Hylobates}, and is sometimes used as a general term for
all Quadrumana. The higher forms, the gorilla, chimpanzee,
and ourang, are often called {anthropoid apes} or {man
apes}.
[1913 Webster]
Note: The ape of the Old Testament was probably the rhesus
monkey of India, and allied forms.
[1913 Webster]
2. One who imitates servilely (in allusion to the manners of
the ape); a mimic. --Byron.
[1913 Webster]
3. A dupe. [Obs.] --Chaucer.
[1913 Webster]
Personally I'd go with explanation 2. or maybe 3., since the Debian
version of Mozilla is kinda like an imitation and IMHO even a good one
;)
Regards
Marcus
signature.asc
Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
Marcus Blumhagen wrote: On Sun, Jan 28, 2007 at 08:47:45PM +0100, Jan Willem Stumpel wrote: Then there are the new names and logos themselves. What is an Iceape? How should this beast be pronounced? As I read the name it is a combination of ice and ape. Both can be looked up in a dictionary. So now instead of a burning fox (or whatever firefox might mean) one gets a freezing (or is it frozen?) ape. My understanding is that IceApe (pardon the studly caps) is an unbranded version of SeaMonkey. Thus we get: Firefox - Iceweasel Thunderbird - Icedove Mozilla suite - Iceape Giving an overall theme to the concept. -- Best wishes, Max Hyre signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 01/30/07 09:05, Max Hyre wrote: Marcus Blumhagen wrote: On Sun, Jan 28, 2007 at 08:47:45PM +0100, Jan Willem Stumpel wrote: Then there are the new names and logos themselves. What is an Iceape? How should this beast be pronounced? As I read the name it is a combination of ice and ape. Both can be looked up in a dictionary. So now instead of a burning fox (or whatever firefox might mean) one gets a freezing (or is it frozen?) ape. My understanding is that IceApe (pardon the studly caps) is an unbranded version of SeaMonkey. Thus we get: Firefox - Iceweasel Thunderbird - Icedove Mozilla suite - Iceape Seamonkey - Iceape Giving an overall theme to the concept. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFFv2ENS9HxQb37XmcRAstfAKCV5m5BiIiRHvnqWoMlJ/+2MlKImwCbBnjf tqVMnZSLXpp6nHNrms2btFA= =WI1a -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
On Mon, Jan 29, 2007 at 08:36:01PM -0800, Marc Shapiro wrote: Paul Johnson wrote: Heh, here in the center of the Linux universe (Portland), lager qualifies as something from a can that's only suitable for killing slugs. Gotta get yourself one of them Henry Weinhard's or Widmer's Hefeweizen if you wanna do it right. :o) Henry Weinhard's Blue Boar. Good stuff! hear hear! decent pale ale and cheap! A signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
On Mon, Jan 29, 2007 at 07:01:30PM -0800, Steve Lamb wrote: Paul Johnson wrote: I would argue that if the value of your User-Agent string affects browsing habits, then the bug is with the website, not the browser. This is a battle you, and anyone else who thinks like you, is going to lose. Opera has had user agent munging for it's entire existence precisely because of these bugs in the website. That's 10 years and counting. It also isn't just some rinky-dink sites that exclude based on the user string. Banks, large news sites, places people generally want to visit on a daily basis do so. Quite frankly Firefox is lucky to often be on the inside of that blockade. the state of washington, which has really good online stuff, bombs on the iceweasel string. Specifically the payment voucher (which is from their perspective one of the most important things to get right) from the sales tax reporting website gets all munched when it sees the iceweasel user-agent string. I emailed them about it (they are fantastic by the way and really happy to hear that there are other OSes using their site. they even have both a linux and other option for the OS when filing tech support emails through the webpage) and that was indeed the issue -- unrecognised user-agent string. Now, why they would put a very simple, text only, page into a setup that depends on user-agent string is beyond me, but... there it is. A signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
On Tue, Jan 30, 2007 at 10:05:58AM -0500, Max Hyre wrote: My understanding is that IceApe (pardon the studly caps) is an unbranded version of SeaMonkey. Thus we get: Firefox - Iceweasel Thunderbird - Icedove Mozilla suite - Iceape Oops, of cause! I was confusing it a bit, beacuse of another response, which rose the question what a firefox might actually be. Anyway I think it pretty much is a humorous resembly of the Mozilla name scheme not to leave out some sarkasm in it. Regards Marcus signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
On Mon, Jan 29, 2007 at 03:29:07PM -0800, Paul Johnson wrote: I believe K-C already lost the ability to enforce Kleenex as a trademark after uptake made their brand the generic word for disposable tissue primarily intended for your nose. Hormel is fighting an uphill battle and using very specific capitalization to avoid the same thing happening to their trademark SPAM. Xerox seems to have largely won it's fight against uptake at this point (that being said, I haven't seen an actual Xerox copier in years... do they still make 'em?). Yes. We still have some branded Xerox copiers where I work. The real interesting one to me is the battle Adobe has going to prevent photoshop from becoming a synonym for edit a photograph or for an edited photograph. Regards, -Roberto -- Roberto C. Sanchez http://people.connexer.com/~roberto http://www.connexer.com signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
On Tue, Jan 30, 2007 at 02:05:10AM -0500, Angelo Bertolli wrote: If it's really looking for Firefox then the only thing I can imagine is an anti-IE website done so on purpose. You would be surprised. A large number of websites check user-agent strings so that only supported browsers are allowed in. The most generally supported browsers are IE, Mozilla, Netscape, Safari and now Firefox. That is why some sites will give you an unsupported browser error page instead of useful content if you visit with something like lynx, dillo or Opera. Regards, -Roberto -- Roberto C. Sanchez http://people.connexer.com/~roberto http://www.connexer.com signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
On Mon, Jan 29, 2007 at 03:36:40PM -0800, Paul Johnson wrote: I would argue that if the value of your User-Agent string affects browsing habits, then the bug is with the website, not the browser. Good look convincing even 1% of website developers that employ such brain-dead tactics that they are wrong. Regards, -Roberto -- Roberto C. Sanchez http://people.connexer.com/~roberto http://www.connexer.com signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
Steve Lamb wrote: Paul Johnson wrote: I would argue that if the value of your User-Agent string affects browsing habits, then the bug is with the website, not the browser. This is a battle you, and anyone else who thinks like you, is going to lose. Opera has had user agent munging for it's entire existence precisely because of these bugs in the website. That's 10 years and counting. I think that has more to do with Opera marginalizing themselves by expecting people to put up with *more* ads or pay for a web browser. It also isn't just some rinky-dink sites that exclude based on the user string. Banks, large news sites, places people generally want to visit on a daily basis do so. Quite frankly Firefox is lucky to often be on the inside of that blockade. Sounds like the actual problem is that businesses should be less willing to cut off their own nose. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
Paul Johnson wrote: I think that has more to do with Opera marginalizing themselves by expecting people to put up with *more* ads or pay for a web browser. That has little to do with what the websites do with the user agent string than anything else. Sounds like the actual problem is that businesses should be less willing to cut off their own nose. The problem is from their perspective, they're not. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream? PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | And dream I do... ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
Marc Shapiro wrote: Paul Johnson wrote: I would argue that if the value of your User-Agent string affects browsing habits, then the bug is with the website, not the browser. Agreed. But there are many websites with that bug. True, though if you've got the time and willing to put forth the effort in sleuthing, emailing the webmaster's boss is a great way to get results in short order from my experience. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
Andrew Sackville-West wrote: On Mon, Jan 29, 2007 at 07:01:30PM -0800, Steve Lamb wrote: Paul Johnson wrote: I would argue that if the value of your User-Agent string affects browsing habits, then the bug is with the website, not the browser. This is a battle you, and anyone else who thinks like you, is going to lose. Opera has had user agent munging for it's entire existence precisely because of these bugs in the website. That's 10 years and counting. It also isn't just some rinky-dink sites that exclude based on the user string. Banks, large news sites, places people generally want to visit on a daily basis do so. Quite frankly Firefox is lucky to often be on the inside of that blockade. the state of washington, which has really good online stuff, bombs on the iceweasel string. Specifically the payment voucher (which is from their perspective one of the most important things to get right) from the sales tax reporting website gets all munched when it sees the iceweasel user-agent string. I emailed them about it (they are fantastic by the way and really happy to hear that there are other OSes using their site. they even have both a linux and other option for the OS when filing tech support emails through the webpage) and that was indeed the issue -- unrecognised user-agent string. Now, why they would put a very simple, text only, page into a setup that depends on user-agent string is beyond me, but... there it is. That's funny, too. Might want to dig deeper on that one, I know Oregon, and I could have sworn Washington, considers browser bias to be in violation of Americans with Disabilities Act, since you can't reasonably expect a blind person to use a GUI web browser. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: sponge burning! [was Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!]
Andrew Sackville-West wrote: Don't those all come with some kind of anti-bacterial crap in them? that may effect the outcome. No, but they are primarily made out of polymers. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
On Sun, Jan 28, 2007 at 09:38:02PM -0500, Hal Vaughan wrote: On Sunday 28 January 2007 18:33, Paul Johnson wrote: ... Do you see a difference? You could have cancelled and looked into why that is. iceweasel provides firefox because it *is* firefox. There is no functional difference between firefox and iceweasel. You're making a mountain out of a molehill. Here's the part I don't get. Even though I'm making a living as a programmer, I'm self taught and have missed a lot -- and I don't know C or C++. I've tried to make sense of the listing of what was taken out of Firefox to make Iceweasel, yet I found it hard to follow. Just what was taken out as non-free if it doesn't effect functionality? If it doesn't make a difference, why is it in there? Or have all the non-free things been replaced by free code already? Hi Hal, If you want the authoritative info on what the difference is between FF and IW, check this out: http://web.glandium.org/blog/?cat=7 cheers, Kev -- | .''`. == Debian GNU/Linux == | my web site: | | : :' : The Universal |mysite.verizon.net/kevin.mark/| | `. `' Operating System| go to counter.li.org and | | `-http://www.debian.org/ |be counted! #238656 | | my keysever: subkeys.pgp.net | my NPO: cfsg.org | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 01/28/07 22:20, Hal Vaughan wrote: On Sunday 28 January 2007 22:52, Greg Folkert wrote: On Sun, 2007-01-28 at 21:38 -0500, Hal Vaughan wrote: On Sunday 28 January 2007 18:33, Paul Johnson wrote: [snip] Okay, I get that and thanks for the rundown, but at one point I saw a list of differences between Firefox and Iceweasel, including a long list of things that were removed from Iceweasel. A lot of it looked technical, but it did seem to indicate there was a lot more than a logo and name that were removed. When people refer to the non-free code, is it ONLY to the logo and name? It just seemed like the list of changes was a lot longer than that. Where did you find that list of differences? -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFFvf6vS9HxQb37XmcRApzcAKCZp9y7wmOT3ZEMPwS9KM+/BE20gQCfQ1ae INKU1rOExhgp4P784JVyt8I= =K+gC -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
John Hasler wrote: Max Hyre writes: Of course, they're fighting a losing battle in the casual usage... In the US they [Kimberly-Clark] have no power over casual usage [of the word `Kleenex']. Yes, the law offers no help there, but they fight the tendency as best they can. You'll see ad campaigns emphasizing Farble's /brand/ widgets, trying to get people to call them widgets, rather than `farbles'. -- Best wishes, Max Hyre signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
On Sun, Jan 28, 2007 at 10:29:57PM -0500, Greg Folkert wrote: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8.1.1) Gecko/20061205 Iceweasel/2.0.0.1 (Debian-2.0.0.1+dfsg-2) Wow, that's a bigg'un. The User agent string has only had one thing changed. s/Iceweasel/Firefox/ My mistake. I took it that the string went from only Firefox/2.0.0.1 to Iceweasel/2.0.0.1. Now, if you are programming for Standards... That wouldn't matter. True, plenty of IE-based browsers do something similar. When you don't and program for only Internet Explorer who cares about Firefox let alone Iceweasel. No care for Galeon, Konqueror, Safari or Opera... Please don't even get me started on this. My university just switched to a product for vieweing web-based broadcasts of classes that has absolutely the most brain-dead browser detection/lockout I have ever seen. It has come down to the fact that Microsoft made a TON of proprietary extensions. Lets let them jam EOOXML down our throats. Meh. They'll do what they want and people will still gladly line to to fork over a bunch of money and take it up the tailpipe. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Novell's Directory Services is a competitive product to Microsoft's Active Directory in much the same way that the Saturn V is a competitive product to those dinky little model rockets that kids light off down at the playfield. -- Thane Walkup That sig made me laugh harder than I've laughed in quite a long time. Regards, -Roberto -- Roberto C. Sanchez http://people.connexer.com/~roberto http://www.connexer.com signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Re: Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
yea, verily, Angelo Bertolli sayith: No, I mean a non-free firefox package in addition to iceweasel. I know it sounds redundant, but I bet someone will start doing it eventually since all it takes is using Mozilla's Linux binary and putting it in deb format. I've done this already for two clients, to sooth ruffled feathers - it's not difficult at all (or I wouldn't have done :P). Perhaps something along the lines of java-package? Ciao, Dave signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
On Sun, Jan 28, 2007 at 08:44:01PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: You would think that after as long as we have had microwave ovens these days that people would be aware that microwaves require moisture to work properly... Actually, no, I wouldn't. For the longest time, I thought it was the fat that was heated up. And if there isn't moisture (and sometimes even if there isn't) it will make its own moisture by breaking apart starches into sugar (hense freshening up stale bread). So what did it do to the sponge? I don't have cable/satelite/highspeed so I can't watch. I imagine that a natural sponge would turn into a puddle of goo and a fake sponge may combust. But at least it would be sterile. Doug. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
John Hasler wrote: Max Hyre writes: Of course, they're fighting a losing battle in the casual usage... I wrote: In the US they [Kimberly-Clark] have no power over casual usage [of the word `Kleenex']. Max Hyre writes: Yes, the law offers no help there, but they fight the tendency as best they can. Yes, often by falsely claiming that they do have power over casual and nominative uses. There is some excuse for this as the boundaries of their authority are ill-defined and they risk losing their mark should they guess wrong. In the eighties ATT sent out vast numbers of letters about misuse of the UNIX mark. Superficially they seemed threatening but on close reading they turned out to be just notices. -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
Doug writes: So what did it do to the sponge? I don't have cable/satelite/highspeed so I can't watch. I imagine that a natural sponge would turn into a puddle of goo and a fake sponge may combust. It probably would do nothing to a brand-new artificial sponge. A dirty but dry one might be conductive enough to heat up and catch fire. A new natural sponge might heat up as well as it consists partially of protein. -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 01/29/07 08:47, Douglas Allan Tutty wrote: On Sun, Jan 28, 2007 at 08:44:01PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: You would think that after as long as we have had microwave ovens these days that people would be aware that microwaves require moisture to work properly... Actually, no, I wouldn't. For the longest time, I thought it was the fat that was heated up. And if there isn't moisture (and sometimes even if there isn't) it will make its own moisture by breaking apart starches into sugar (hense freshening up stale bread). So what did it do to the sponge? I don't have cable/satelite/highspeed so I can't watch. I imagine that a natural sponge would turn into a puddle of goo and a fake sponge may combust. The rectangular, artificial grocery-store sponges smoked up the whole house. But at least it would be sterile. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFFvouES9HxQb37XmcRArPFAKCpdaRLIYx8uNif/OP5xeYwjiZXMACfbzCJ wQ6fnkMWigPTeC7evMQHt6E= =ihkk -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
OT: sponge burning! [was Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!]
On Mon, Jan 29, 2007 at 06:04:20PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: On 01/29/07 08:47, Douglas Allan Tutty wrote: On Sun, Jan 28, 2007 at 08:44:01PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: You would think that after as long as we have had microwave ovens these days that people would be aware that microwaves require moisture to work properly... Actually, no, I wouldn't. For the longest time, I thought it was the fat that was heated up. And if there isn't moisture (and sometimes even if there isn't) it will make its own moisture by breaking apart starches into sugar (hense freshening up stale bread). So what did it do to the sponge? I don't have cable/satelite/highspeed so I can't watch. I imagine that a natural sponge would turn into a puddle of goo and a fake sponge may combust. The rectangular, artificial grocery-store sponges smoked up the whole house. Don't those all come with some kind of anti-bacterial crap in them? that may effect the outcome. A signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
Max Hyre wrote: John Hasler wrote: Angelo writes: It was reiterated by Mozilla that if it doesn't do this, it will lose some ability to protect its trademarks. IANAL, but somehow it just doesn't sound right to me. It needn't be right in order to be true. Trademark law is loony. Actually, it's right, true, and not at all loony. Think about what a trademark is: a way to tell the buyer exactly what she's getting. If Kimberly-Clark let any old tissue maker put `Kleenex' on their box, there wouldn't be any purpose to the name, would there? So, K-C has to insist the name only be used for their product, and none other. [1] Therefore, the law simply recognizes that if things have gotten to the point where the name no longer specifies a particular maker's product, it has no use as a trademark, and therefore isn't one, and the owner loses the right to claim it as such. [2] I believe K-C already lost the ability to enforce Kleenex as a trademark after uptake made their brand the generic word for disposable tissue primarily intended for your nose. Hormel is fighting an uphill battle and using very specific capitalization to avoid the same thing happening to their trademark SPAM. Xerox seems to have largely won it's fight against uptake at this point (that being said, I haven't seen an actual Xerox copier in years... do they still make 'em?). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
Hal Vaughan wrote: On Sunday 28 January 2007 18:33, Paul Johnson wrote: ... Do you see a difference? You could have cancelled and looked into why that is. iceweasel provides firefox because it *is* firefox. There is no functional difference between firefox and iceweasel. You're making a mountain out of a molehill. Just what was taken out as non-free if it doesn't effect functionality? If it doesn't make a difference, why is it in there? Or have all the non-free things been replaced by free code already? The name and the logos. Yes, it really was as trivial as that. Otherwise Iceweasel and Firefox are identical. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
Hal Vaughan wrote: On Sunday 28 January 2007 18:36, Paul Johnson wrote: Martin Schulze wrote: Mike Hommey wrote: Maybe not, because the name change makes it visible for him that there has been a change indeed. Changes from 1.0 to 1.5 or 1.5 to 2.0 may be accepted as upstream changes that just happen. Remember the Cola tests? Blindfolded have preferred Pepsi over Coca, with eyes open the result they preferred the Coca variant. I took the Pepsi Challenge and they video taped it. Pepsi lost blindfolded. Funny how you didn't see me in the Pepsi ads... What makes you think that's the reason they didn't show you? ;-) I was far from the only person who came up Coke in that particular supermarket lineup. Either Portland's weird (but we already knew that), or Pepsi's marketing strategy was seriously flawed (hence marketing strategy and not scientific survey). After watching this frustrated group go through several taste testers all coming up Coke, I started to wonder if they just ran the challenge until someone finally got Pepsi and they had the footage they needed... -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
Steve Lamb wrote: Hal Vaughan wrote: On Sunday 28 January 2007 07:01, Martin Schulze wrote: Remember the Cola tests? Blindfolded have preferred Pepsi over Coca, with eyes open the result they preferred the Coca variant. Funny. Blindfolded I took the same as I did without the blindfold. Coke either way. That was years ago, though. I gave up soft drinks a good while ago. Come now, we're geeks! I've never taken a blindfolded taste test between Coke and Pepsi but I know exactly what I would tell them, blindfolded or not. Get this cola crap outta here and bring me the true lager of geekdom, Mt. Dew! :P Heh, here in the center of the Linux universe (Portland), lager qualifies as something from a can that's only suitable for killing slugs. Gotta get yourself one of them Henry Weinhard's or Widmer's Hefeweizen if you wanna do it right. :o) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
Angelo Bertolli wrote: Paul Johnson wrote: Angelo Bertolli wrote: I'm not clear on why Firefox couldn't be put in non-free though. (I just figured it was for upgrades.) Why put something in non-free if trivial changes to the name and artwork makes it free? No, I mean a non-free firefox package in addition to iceweasel. I understand that is what you intended, though I think my question is still valid even in that circumstance. Why put something in non-free if a trivial change makes it free? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
Floris Bruynooghe wrote: On Sat, Jan 27, 2007 at 09:40:52PM +0100, Norbert Preining wrote: On Sam, 27 Jan 2007, Piotr Dziubinski wrote: Iceweasel and Firefox are a different products, very similar, but different. Can YOU please explain me what *important* differences there are? [...] Otherwise I would like to see what kind of OPERATIONAL difference you have found: There is actually an operational difference. In the about:config page the setting general.useragent.extra.firefox is set to Iceweasel/2.0.0.1. Looks harmless, but it stopped me from logging on to a website. It would only let me in when I set it to Firefox/2.0.0. Might want to let the webmaster know about W3C standards and explain why following them strictly is a better idea than anal-retentive User-Agent string checking, while you're at it. Bonus points if you know the direct email address to that webmaster's boss. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
Hal Vaughan wrote: On Sunday 28 January 2007 18:42, Paul Johnson wrote: Stephen R Laniel wrote: On Sat, Jan 27, 2007 at 11:03:59AM -0500, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote: Please quit top posting. Here is a script that I banged out in a few minutes, which surely needs much improvement but will hopefully go some way toward making the top-posting debate -- which is surely the least interesting debate in the history of computing -- go away: http://laniels.org/scripts/top_post_fixer.pl.txt This will tag all the lines in a given message by whether they're raw line or one containing a quote. It's primitive, but hopefully it's enough of a start that someone can expand upon it and end the spectacularly stupid debate. Why should the reader have to fix spectacularly broken presentation on behalf of the writer? If they want an audience, they should do it right the first time. It's not like this is anything new, RFC1855 is 12 years old now. People should just not learn from Outlook and expect it to be the way the Internet works. Oh, and everyone that uses e-mail spends their time reading every RFC out there. I don't expect them to. Though I do expect them to learn Remember you're always going to be dealing with newbies -- at least until kids grow up writing e-mail the right way, and it'll take a while for that to happen. I'm 25, I grew up doing it the right way. Though thanks for reminding me that in addition to the Echo Boomers that I'm a part of, there was a simultaneous, much dumber, Beavis and Butthead Generation competing for jobs and oxygen, and driving up the demand for food and affordable housing for the rest of us capable of independent thought. :o) Oddly enough, though, it's usually Gen X'ers or Baby Boomers of questionable mental stability I've encountered with this problem. http://wiki.ursine.ca/Category:Online_lusers Face it: Usenet isn't the only place where September is eternal. September ended. AOL is gone from Usenet and is becoming more of a walled community of idiots now that it's free for the idiots to self-segregate without losing their current ISP. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
Roberto C. Sanchez wrote: On Sun, Jan 28, 2007 at 04:52:36PM -0800, Steve Lamb wrote: I think his point wasn't so much the version number as the name in front of it. Websites don't know what Iceweasel is, they do know what Firefox is. I think that such a thing is bad. I understand the purpose behind the name change. But a browser that claims to be a Firefox-alike should function as much like Firefox as possible. To me that means not messing with the useragent string. That sort of thing is generally hidden from users and not likely to be easy to figure out/fix for many users in the case of a problem. I would argue that if the value of your User-Agent string affects browsing habits, then the bug is with the website, not the browser. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
Paul Johnson wrote: I would argue that if the value of your User-Agent string affects browsing habits, then the bug is with the website, not the browser. This is a battle you, and anyone else who thinks like you, is going to lose. Opera has had user agent munging for it's entire existence precisely because of these bugs in the website. That's 10 years and counting. It also isn't just some rinky-dink sites that exclude based on the user string. Banks, large news sites, places people generally want to visit on a daily basis do so. Quite frankly Firefox is lucky to often be on the inside of that blockade. Changing the user agent line should not be taken lightly nor forced upon people without providing them with a simple method of reporting something the websites want to see. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream? PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | And dream I do... ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
On Monday 29 January 2007 18:50, Paul Johnson wrote: ... Oh, and everyone that uses e-mail spends their time reading every RFC out there. I don't expect them to. Though I do expect them to learn Damn you're demanding, aren't you? Remember you're always going to be dealing with newbies -- at least until kids grow up writing e-mail the right way, and it'll take a while for that to happen. I'm 25, I grew up doing it the right way. Though thanks for reminding me that in addition to the Echo Boomers that I'm a part of, there was a simultaneous, much dumber, Beavis and Butthead Generation competing for jobs and oxygen, and driving up the demand for food and affordable housing for the rest of us capable of independent thought. :o) I used to teach kids that age, when that show was on, in residential treatment. Some were that dense in some areas. I'd watch the show at home just because it felt so good to see such dumb students and NOT have to discipline or teach them. Oddly enough, though, it's usually Gen X'ers or Baby Boomers of questionable mental stability I've encountered with this problem. http://wiki.ursine.ca/Category:Online_lusers Face it: Usenet isn't the only place where September is eternal. September ended. AOL is gone from Usenet and is becoming more of a walled community of idiots now that it's free for the idiots to self-segregate without losing their current ISP. Yes, it isn't just AOL anymore. It's still September. Fortunately it isn't September often on some lists (like this one). Hal -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
On Monday 29 January 2007 18:40, Paul Johnson wrote: Hal Vaughan wrote: On Sunday 28 January 2007 18:36, Paul Johnson wrote: Martin Schulze wrote: Mike Hommey wrote: Maybe not, because the name change makes it visible for him that there has been a change indeed. Changes from 1.0 to 1.5 or 1.5 to 2.0 may be accepted as upstream changes that just happen. Remember the Cola tests? Blindfolded have preferred Pepsi over Coca, with eyes open the result they preferred the Coca variant. I took the Pepsi Challenge and they video taped it. Pepsi lost blindfolded. Funny how you didn't see me in the Pepsi ads... What makes you think that's the reason they didn't show you? ;-) I was far from the only person who came up Coke in that particular supermarket lineup. Either Portland's weird (but we already knew that), or Pepsi's marketing strategy was seriously flawed (hence marketing strategy and not scientific survey). After watching this frustrated group go through several taste testers all coming up Coke, I started to wonder if they just ran the challenge until someone finally got Pepsi and they had the footage they needed... Uh, Paul... Er, that was a joke. Hal -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
On Monday 29 January 2007 00:46, Greg Folkert wrote: ... The actual things removed: http://gnuzilla.gnu.org/fulltree/iceweasel-1.5.0.7-g2/remove.nonfree Most all of them are Graphics related, except for the auto-updater for Firefox...err Iceweasel and a Platforms Debian does not support (like OS2). Examples of branded code, samples of API and other branded stuff. http://times.debian.net/1022-iceweasel There that explains the stuff from a more lay term perspective. IOW, expanded the package to compile on all the Debian supported architectures. Please stop using generalities, when the stuff is quickly found. IOW GIYF (Google Is Your Friend) in this instance. I had looked and, unfortunately, could not find the link again. I've been under some heavy stress this month and, to be honest, my short term memory seems hosed. I saw a list, but not being a C programmer, some items weren't that easy to understand. I had searched, but not gotten a good layman's version of what was removed. The thing is, Debian has done this many times. CDRecord/WODIM is one good example. I'm not complaining about it at all, just getting more information. Hal -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
I have a question, if anyone here has an answer... Is it the intent of the Debian team that Iceweasel actually fork the codebase, or are they just going to remove the nonfree bits and change the name of each new Firefox release? If the former, then it will become a new beast. It is only a matter of time. If the latter, then it is basically just an unbranded Firefox that they can provide timely security updates on without having to go through Mozilla.org. Does anyone have an answer to this? -- Marc Shapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
Paul Johnson wrote: I would argue that if the value of your User-Agent string affects browsing habits, then the bug is with the website, not the browser. Agreed. But there are many websites with that bug. -- Marc Shapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
Paul Johnson wrote: Heh, here in the center of the Linux universe (Portland), lager qualifies as something from a can that's only suitable for killing slugs. Gotta get yourself one of them Henry Weinhard's or Widmer's Hefeweizen if you wanna do it right. :o) Henry Weinhard's Blue Boar. Good stuff! -- Marc Shapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
On Mon, 2007-01-29 at 20:03 -0800, Marc Shapiro wrote: I have a question, if anyone here has an answer... Is it the intent of the Debian team that Iceweasel actually fork the codebase, or are they just going to remove the nonfree bits and change the name of each new Firefox release? If the former, then it will become a new beast. It is only a matter of time. If the latter, then it is basically just an unbranded Firefox that they can provide timely security updates on without having to go through Mozilla.org. Does anyone have an answer to this? The want is unbranded Firefox. It may go the other way. There are parts that are removed that were non-Debian supported platforms (like OS2) and pieces that are completely broken and/or are missing in any case. Looks like a couple of additions are added as security additions. http://www.gnu.org/software/gnuzilla/ So, I guess it is like what Debian does in any case. Slightly changed but most original. Eventually Debian like to only accept or do patches/additions that are accepted upstream. So, it is like a standard Debian Package, Original with a Diff patch and description. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Novell's Directory Services is a competitive product to Microsoft's Active Directory in much the same way that the Saturn V is a competitive product to those dinky little model rockets that kids light off down at the playfield. -- Thane Walkup signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Re: Re: Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
Paul Johnson wrote: Angelo Bertolli wrote: Paul Johnson wrote: Angelo Bertolli wrote: I'm not clear on why Firefox couldn't be put in non-free though. (I just figured it was for upgrades.) Why put something in non-free if trivial changes to the name and artwork makes it free? No, I mean a non-free firefox package in addition to iceweasel. I understand that is what you intended, though I think my question is still valid even in that circumstance. Why put something in non-free if a trivial change makes it free? Because some users may want to use the canonical Firefox. And it may solve some arguments. Anyway, as long as it's in non-free, why not as long as someone is willing to do it? Although I'll admit, even though it's very little effort, it's a bit more effort than it's worth when you can just download Firefox off the website. Angelo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
Paul Johnson wrote: Floris Bruynooghe wrote: There is actually an operational difference. In the about:config page the setting general.useragent.extra.firefox is set to Iceweasel/2.0.0.1. Looks harmless, but it stopped me from logging on to a website. It would only let me in when I set it to Firefox/2.0.0. Might want to let the webmaster know about W3C standards and explain why following them strictly is a better idea than anal-retentive User-Agent string checking, while you're at it. Bonus points if you know the direct email address to that webmaster's boss. If it's really looking for Firefox then the only thing I can imagine is an anti-IE website done so on purpose. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
On Sat, Jan 27, 2007 at 09:40:52PM +0100, Norbert Preining [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sam, 27 Jan 2007, Piotr Dziubinski wrote: Iceweasel and Firefox are a different products, very similar, but different. Can YOU please explain me what *important* differences there are? If you miss the firefox logo, and the word firefox in the title bar, then ok, well, run stable. Otherwise I would like to see what kind of OPERATIONAL difference you have found: - you still can fall iceweasel as firefox on the command line - you can browse the web *IN THE EXACT SAME WAY* To be fair, it's not exactly true, because upgrading from firefox to iceweasel in debian means upgrading from version 1.0 or 1.5 to 2.0, and there are substancial changes that some people dislike, myself included. Which means Piotr is actually probably complaining about the fact that iceweasel is not quite the same as firefox used to be on his desktop, but on the other hand, if it were still named firefox, he would have the same opinion. Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
On Sat, Jan 27, 2007 at 12:18:09AM -0500, Hal Vaughan wrote: On Friday 26 January 2007 23:19, Angelo Bertolli wrote: Piotr Dziubinski wrote: Ex-Debian user... ... back to the Gentoo If going to the Mozilla website to download and install Firefox is too much work for you, Debian is definitely not a good choice for you. You might try another OS called Windows--I hear it's got its own browser that's pretty popular. Now that's just mean. See my earlier response about rudeness being a weak man's imitation of strength. You've made good points in your other posts on this thread, but there is no reason to be that mean to a frustrated user. It just pours fuel on the fire and justifies those who say that Linux people are more concerned about acting superior because they think they're smart than in helping others. Shouldn't that be: ... Linux people are more concerned about acting superior than helping others because they think they're smart. :-) -- Chris. == ... the official version cannot be abandoned because the implication of rejecting it is far too disturbing: that we are subject to a government conspiracy of `X-Files' proportions and insidiousness. Letter to the LA Times Magazine, September 18, 2005. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
On Fri, Jan 26, 2007 at 11:19:44PM -0500, Angelo Bertolli wrote: Piotr Dziubinski wrote: Ex-Debian user... ... back to the Gentoo If going to the Mozilla website to download and install Firefox is too much work for you, Debian is definitely not a good choice for you. You Thats one of the reasons I use Debian. -- Chris. == ... the official version cannot be abandoned because the implication of rejecting it is far too disturbing: that we are subject to a government conspiracy of `X-Files' proportions and insidiousness. Letter to the LA Times Magazine, September 18, 2005. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
On Sat, Jan 27, 2007 at 01:03:21AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: On 01/27/07 00:57, Oleg Verych wrote: Poor man ;) Seriously, i've had enough from mozilla/firefox long ago: screen, lynx, slrn, mutt are my friends. See? No hands... ups X Window, it's magic! So, what's it like in 1994? :) Huh? Lets see.. screen -v Screen version 4.00.03 (FAU) 23-Oct-06 mutt -v Mutt 1.5.13 (2006-08-11) Copyright (C) 1996-2006 Michael R. Elkins and others. Phew, not as bad as I thought. :-) links -V Unknown option -V links -v Unknown option -v links --version Unknown option --version :-( -- Chris. == ... the official version cannot be abandoned because the implication of rejecting it is far too disturbing: that we are subject to a government conspiracy of `X-Files' proportions and insidiousness. Letter to the LA Times Magazine, September 18, 2005. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
Piotr Dziubinski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is no longer firefox in debian etch, so after typing: apt-get install firefox I would like to see announcement: Firefox packages are no longer present in debian distribution, please try iceweasel. Do you see a difference? Yes. Just printing an announcement like that would be a bug in two ways: scripts couldn't parse it and it doesn't explain why Firefox isn't there (MozCorp's copyright+trademark pincer tactic). At present, it says: The following extra packages will be installed: iceweasel I've suggested that iceweasel provides+conflicts+replaces firefox, which AFAICT would instead produce the output: Note, selecting iceweasel instead of firefox [...other stuff about packages...] Do you want to continue? [Y/n] Would that be better, in your opinion? I don't know if it's possible. I think that would require ftpmaster assistance (because it makes firefox a virtual package as I understand it and the previous firefox*deb files may need to be deleted), it may make other tools say even more inaccurate things about the firefox-iceweasel relationship and I don't know whether it would give a smooth upgrade like the near-empty transition package. (From http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2006/12/msg00111.html ) Regards, -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only: see http://people.debian.org/~mjr/ Please follow http://www.uk.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
Mike Hommey wrote: To be fair, it's not exactly true, because upgrading from firefox to iceweasel in debian means upgrading from version 1.0 or 1.5 to 2.0, and there are substancial changes that some people dislike, myself included. Which means Piotr is actually probably complaining about the fact that iceweasel is not quite the same as firefox used to be on his desktop, but on the other hand, if it were still named firefox, he would have the same opinion. Maybe not, because the name change makes it visible for him that there has been a change indeed. Changes from 1.0 to 1.5 or 1.5 to 2.0 may be accepted as upstream changes that just happen. Remember the Cola tests? Blindfolded have preferred Pepsi over Coca, with eyes open the result they preferred the Coca variant. Regards, Joey -- The MS-DOS filesystem is nice for removable media. -- H. Peter Anvin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
On Fri, Jan 26, 2007 at 11:48:52PM +0100, Jochen Schulz wrote: -- In the west we kill people like chickens. [Agree] [Disagree] No opinion. When I was in the west I didn't see any prople that resembled chickens. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
On Fri, Jan 26, 2007 at 06:18:19PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: Like the people who read the CNN article about sterilizing sponges in the microwave? What about sterilizing sponges in the microwave? -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
On Sat, Jan 27, 2007 at 10:33:13AM -0500, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote: On Sat, Jan 27, 2007 at 03:55:33PM +0100, Piotr Dziubinski wrote: Only Etch supports amd64, so I was forced to use Etch. There is an unofficial Sarge release for amd64. I use it on a couple of servers and many Debian users the unofficial Sarge with no problems. True. But many other AMD64 users had hardware that is too new for sarge. They had to go on to etch. Which works. now. finally. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 01/28/07 08:43, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Jan 26, 2007 at 06:18:19PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: Like the people who read the CNN article about sterilizing sponges in the microwave? What about sterilizing sponges in the microwave? You must not read /.. http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/01/24/germs.sponges.reut/index.html -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFFvLxAS9HxQb37XmcRAn17AJ9rlkixBceAHG11HGGgGlKvwqqgyACfe0pM 7QUeIJxRe9cOLuV2NdI9sLo= =zZJm -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
On Sunday 28 January 2007 07:01, Martin Schulze wrote: Mike Hommey wrote: To be fair, it's not exactly true, because upgrading from firefox to iceweasel in debian means upgrading from version 1.0 or 1.5 to 2.0, and there are substancial changes that some people dislike, myself included. Which means Piotr is actually probably complaining about the fact that iceweasel is not quite the same as firefox used to be on his desktop, but on the other hand, if it were still named firefox, he would have the same opinion. Maybe not, because the name change makes it visible for him that there has been a change indeed. Changes from 1.0 to 1.5 or 1.5 to 2.0 may be accepted as upstream changes that just happen. Remember the Cola tests? Blindfolded have preferred Pepsi over Coca, with eyes open the result they preferred the Coca variant. Funny. Blindfolded I took the same as I did without the blindfold. Coke either way. That was years ago, though. I gave up soft drinks a good while ago. Hal -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
On Sunday 28 January 2007 06:43, Chris Bannister wrote: On Sat, Jan 27, 2007 at 12:18:09AM -0500, Hal Vaughan wrote: On Friday 26 January 2007 23:19, Angelo Bertolli wrote: Piotr Dziubinski wrote: Ex-Debian user... ... back to the Gentoo If going to the Mozilla website to download and install Firefox is too much work for you, Debian is definitely not a good choice for you. You might try another OS called Windows--I hear it's got its own browser that's pretty popular. Now that's just mean. See my earlier response about rudeness being a weak man's imitation of strength. You've made good points in your other posts on this thread, but there is no reason to be that mean to a frustrated user. It just pours fuel on the fire and justifies those who say that Linux people are more concerned about acting superior because they think they're smart than in helping others. Shouldn't that be: ... Linux people are more concerned about acting superior than helping others because they think they're smart. :-) In the phrase they think they're you've got a problem. The word they is used twice and it's not clear whether it refers to Linux people or others. I used to teach English, but that was over a decade ago, so I can't remember, but I think it would be expressed as a pronoun without a clear antecedent. Hal -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
On Sunday 28 January 2007 02:42, Mike Hommey wrote: To be fair, it's not exactly true, because upgrading from firefox to iceweasel in debian means upgrading from version 1.0 or 1.5 to 2.0, and there are substancial changes that some people dislike, myself included. I don't even want to get into the firefox/iceweasel food fight, but I have to agree with that sentiment. I'm still running FF 1.0 something on my Knoppix/Sarge/Unstable hybrid at home. Recently I upgraded my Windows box at work to FF 2.0. The most obvious effect of the upgrade was that it broke a whole bunch of extentions that I've grown accustomed to. Whatever improvements 2.0 brought kind of pale in comparison to that loss of functionality, so I'm not in any hurry to upgrade FF anywhere else. -- Bud Rogers [EMAIL PROTECTED] KD5SZ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
On Sun, Jan 28, 2007 at 12:02:43PM +, MJ Ray wrote: I've suggested that iceweasel provides+conflicts+replaces firefox, which AFAICT would instead produce the output: Note, selecting iceweasel instead of firefox [...other stuff about packages...] Do you want to continue? [Y/n] Would that be better, in your opinion? I don't know if it's possible. I think that would require ftpmaster assistance (because it makes firefox a virtual package as I understand If it turns firefox into a virtual package, then it cannot be done. The reason is that virtual packages cannot have versioned dependencies expressed against them. In this way, with firefox instead being a dummy package, other packages can continue to express versioned dependencies on firefox and everything still works. Regards, -Roberto -- Roberto C. Sanchez http://people.connexer.com/~roberto http://www.connexer.com signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
On Sun, Jan 28, 2007 at 09:07:44AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 01/28/07 08:43, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Jan 26, 2007 at 06:18:19PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: Like the people who read the CNN article about sterilizing sponges in the microwave? What about sterilizing sponges in the microwave? You must not read /.. I do, occasionally. http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/01/24/germs.sponges.reut/index.html Thanks. I knew about the microwave trick from a few months ago when my wife used it. But I never dreamed of using it dry -- too much like microwaving and empty plate. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
On Sat, Jan 27, 2007 at 12:44:05AM -0500, Hal Vaughan wrote: On Saturday 27 January 2007 00:32, Ron Johnson wrote: (Teenagers do not have an unalienable right to do have Myspace pages Personally, I'm fine with letting teens on MySpace and similar wastelands. Let them have places like that so they're busy enough to not care about the rest of the net. and click on every free nude girlz link they see.) How else are they going to fill up their 300GB hard drives if they can't download nudie pics? by reading usenet group alt.sex.pictures.nospam. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
On Sun, 2007-01-28 at 14:02 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, Jan 27, 2007 at 12:44:05AM -0500, Hal Vaughan wrote: On Saturday 27 January 2007 00:32, Ron Johnson wrote: (Teenagers do not have an unalienable right to do have Myspace pages Personally, I'm fine with letting teens on MySpace and similar wastelands. Let them have places like that so they're busy enough to not care about the rest of the net. and click on every free nude girlz link they see.) How else are they going to fill up their 300GB hard drives if they can't download nudie pics? by reading usenet group alt.sex.pictures.nospam. I have a 4.4TB Raid5 array: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ df -h /stor FilesystemSize Used Avail Use% Mounted on duke:/stor4.4T 4.2T 232G 95% /stor That is my array on my server machine. Locally my array isn't quite that big: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ df -h /usr/local/ FilesystemSize Used Avail Use% Mounted on /dev/mapper/miscVG-localLV 749G 553G 197G 74% /usr/local My 4.4TB array, I have XBOX games for my 1st gen modchipped XBOX. Ripped DVDs (my own DVDs), with mainly music on my local machine. Not a lick of pr0n on any of that disk space. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Novell's Directory Services is a competitive product to Microsoft's Active Directory in much the same way that the Saturn V is a competitive product to those dinky little model rockets that kids light off down at the playfield. -- Thane Walkup signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
The choice of words by the OP was unfortunate, to say the least. But among all his blathering there was the germ of a valid point. Debian IMHO should carefully weigh the advantages and disadvantages of adhering --uncompromisingly-- to the letter of its doctrine. The renaming of the programs certainly did have disadvantages to users. In the first place (in my experience) it introduced various problems with customised menus and window managers. Then there are the new names and logos themselves. What is an Iceape? How should this beast be pronounced? Webster's does not say, nor does the Concise Oxford, because it does not occur there. The logos are hideous (especially the Iceape one); they seem designed to frighten users away. My eternal project of converting Aunt Tilly types to Debian has just been set back again. The new names by themselves also isolate Debian from the rest of the Linux world (including the Debian clones like Ubuntu, Mepis). Is this a good thing? I doubt it very much. But the worst result of this unwillingness to negotiate until the problem is solved surely is in the human/psychological field. We may consider it a given that the relationship between the Mozilla people and the Debian people has received some serious blows. This will certainly have a negative influence on the smooth technology transfer between the two sides. The quality of the Debian versions of the Mozilla products can only suffer from this. Most likely it already has. All this is due to over-concentration on legal hair-splitting rather than quality of code. This is always bad; we have seen this before, with bad results for the packages concerned (dosemu; xcdroast). Some creative and flexible thinking surely could have come up with a compromise, an exception, or some other workable formula (lawyers always can; unfortunately some other lawyers, and amateur lawyers, seem to delight in stoking the fires of conflict). I still hope that there are some cooler heads among the influential circles in Debian that can reverse this disastrous, and IMHO ridiculous stance. Regards, Jan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Jan 26, 2007 at 06:18:19PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: Like the people who read the CNN article about sterilizing sponges in the microwave? What about sterilizing sponges in the microwave? T'hell with the sponges, how does one read CNN, exactly? -- Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream? PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | And dream I do... ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
Hal Vaughan wrote: On Sunday 28 January 2007 07:01, Martin Schulze wrote: Remember the Cola tests? Blindfolded have preferred Pepsi over Coca, with eyes open the result they preferred the Coca variant. Funny. Blindfolded I took the same as I did without the blindfold. Coke either way. That was years ago, though. I gave up soft drinks a good while ago. Come now, we're geeks! I've never taken a blindfolded taste test between Coke and Pepsi but I know exactly what I would tell them, blindfolded or not. Get this cola crap outta here and bring me the true lager of geekdom, Mt. Dew! :P -- Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream? PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | And dream I do... ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 01/28/07 15:04, Steve Lamb wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Jan 26, 2007 at 06:18:19PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: Like the people who read the CNN article about sterilizing sponges in the microwave? What about sterilizing sponges in the microwave? T'hell with the sponges, how does one read CNN, exactly? Hendrik snipped off the hyperlink when replying. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFFvRG0S9HxQb37XmcRAklUAKCEe2AtyL1JoYJnab49+coUh9jisQCgnlUr aOrNvw7m+d6/a0ivEMVB5Ec= =p+7y -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 01/28/07 15:06, Steve Lamb wrote: Hal Vaughan wrote: On Sunday 28 January 2007 07:01, Martin Schulze wrote: Remember the Cola tests? Blindfolded have preferred Pepsi over Coca, with eyes open the result they preferred the Coca variant. Funny. Blindfolded I took the same as I did without the blindfold. Coke either way. That was years ago, though. I gave up soft drinks a good while ago. Come now, we're geeks! I've never taken a blindfolded taste test between Coke and Pepsi but I know exactly what I would tell them, blindfolded or not. Get this cola crap outta here and bring me the true lager of geekdom, Mt. Dew! :P Your Geek Card is officially revoked. /Jolt/ is the official Geek soft drink. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFFvRIMS9HxQb37XmcRAt9OAJ9ic5RrTWHQxl62h1+oBmOBMsupNQCgqNbT nBKWd0sl+DKTaAoakU5iv2o= =1ElX -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 20:47:45 +0100 Jan Willem Stumpel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The choice of words by the OP was unfortunate, to say the least. But among all his blathering there was the germ of a valid point. Debian IMHO should carefully weigh the advantages and disadvantages of adhering --uncompromisingly-- to the letter of its doctrine. Let's say Debian starts to make compromises. Where do you draw the line? If you make a compromise for this, then why not for some other package(s) with problems? Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
On Sunday 28 January 2007 22:04, Steve Lamb wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Jan 26, 2007 at 06:18:19PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: Like the people who read the CNN article about sterilizing sponges in the microwave? What about sterilizing sponges in the microwave? T'hell with the sponges, how does one read CNN, exactly? Thats crossing us over to the Fedora list, where a thread has been running on how to view Fox videos on Firefox. Not only Fox, but CNN, Citicards, and the list goes on. Nigel. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
Jan Willem Stumpel wrote: The choice of words by the OP was unfortunate, to say the least. But among all his blathering there was the germ of a valid point. The only potential valid point I saw coming out of it was that maybe transitional wasn't the way to go. I don't know what other options there are, can we have a replacement package without using transitional packages? Debian IMHO should carefully weigh the advantages and disadvantages of adhering --uncompromisingly-- to the letter of its doctrine. I think this problem is about the spirit of the doctrine: using Mozilla-trademarked packages breaks the freedom that people expect from Debian. Yes, the Debian logo itself is a problem in this regard. Personally, this is making me want to go back to Epiphany, but then I'd miss out on all those extensions. The renaming of the programs certainly did have disadvantages to users. In the first place (in my experience) it introduced various problems with customised menus and window managers. Yeah, I think customized menus has always given me a problem on GNOME. Not so much if I just put my launches on a panel. Then there are the new names and logos themselves. What is an Iceape? How should this beast be pronounced? Webster's does not say, nor does the Concise Oxford, because it does not occur there. The logos are hideous (especially the Iceape one); they seem designed to frighten users away. My eternal project of converting Aunt Tilly types to Debian has just been set back again. The new names by themselves also isolate Debian from the rest of the Linux world (including the Debian clones like Ubuntu, Mepis). Is this a good thing? I doubt it very much. What exactly is a Firefox? IceApe might be a little bit more confusing to pronounce because of the consecutive vowels, but I'm sure you won't find Firefox in the Oxford dictionary either ;) I think a lot of distros (except probably SuSE and RH) are going to go the way of gnuzilla when there is more development on it. But the worst result of this unwillingness to negotiate until the problem is solved surely is in the human/psychological field. We may consider it a given that the relationship between the Mozilla people and the Debian people has received some serious blows. This will certainly have a negative influence on the smooth technology transfer between the two sides. The quality of the Debian versions of the Mozilla products can only suffer from this. Most likely it already has. I think Mozilla has been at least as unwilling to negotiate on the issue of their trademarks as Debian has been on the issue of letting users modify Debian without restrictions. I think that what is happening with gnuzilla is the most appropriate thing to happen. All Debian wanted to do was to make modifications to Firefox, which is open source. But Mozilla has said that those modifications need approval by them in order to make it something called Firefox... so what would you advocate? Debian needs to just keep the Firefox package as produced by Mozilla and can't modify it? I can't blame either side really. It was reiterated by Mozilla that if it doesn't do this, it will lose some ability to protect its trademarks. IANAL, but somehow it just doesn't sound right to me. Angelo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
On Sat, Jan 27, 2007 at 09:40:52PM +0100, Norbert Preining wrote: On Sam, 27 Jan 2007, Piotr Dziubinski wrote: Iceweasel and Firefox are a different products, very similar, but different. Can YOU please explain me what *important* differences there are? [...] Otherwise I would like to see what kind of OPERATIONAL difference you have found: There is actually an operational difference. In the about:config page the setting general.useragent.extra.firefox is set to Iceweasel/2.0.0.1. Looks harmless, but it stopped me from logging on to a website. It would only let me in when I set it to Firefox/2.0.0. Note: that website lists only Firefox 1.0 on Windows as supported (among a few other proprietary browsers). But this setting made the difference between being able to use it and getting a browser unsported page. I can imagine less technical users being at a loss in a similar situation. Regards Floris -- Debian GNU/Linux -- The Power of Freedom www.debian.org | www.gnu.org | www.kernel.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
Angelo writes: It was reiterated by Mozilla that if it doesn't do this, it will lose some ability to protect its trademarks. IANAL, but somehow it just doesn't sound right to me. It needn't be right in order to be true. Trademark law is loony. -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 01/28/07 16:26, Floris Bruynooghe wrote: On Sat, Jan 27, 2007 at 09:40:52PM +0100, Norbert Preining wrote: On Sam, 27 Jan 2007, Piotr Dziubinski wrote: Iceweasel and Firefox are a different products, very similar, but different. Can YOU please explain me what *important* differences there are? [...] Otherwise I would like to see what kind of OPERATIONAL difference you have found: There is actually an operational difference. In the about:config page the setting general.useragent.extra.firefox is set to Iceweasel/2.0.0.1. Looks harmless, but it stopped me from logging on to a website. It would only let me in when I set it to Firefox/2.0.0. Note: that website lists only Firefox 1.0 on Windows as supported (among a few other proprietary browsers). But this setting made the difference between being able to use it and getting a browser unsported page. I can imagine less technical users being at a loss in a similar situation. No, that's a problem with the web site. Go to Mozilla.org, and you'll see that the current version in 2.0.0.1. http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFFvTEBS9HxQb37XmcRAiXDAJ4y8T0spbWWg3xUfNLeR4YqDR9qUQCdEsFC VeKBjS+ZK8bLQeb0llFyp3E= =eVGX -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
Ron Johnson wrote: On 01/28/07 16:26, Floris Bruynooghe wrote: There is actually an operational difference. In the about:config page the setting general.useragent.extra.firefox is set to Iceweasel/2.0.0.1. Looks harmless, but it stopped me from logging on to a website. It would only let me in when I set it to Firefox/2.0.0. No, that's a problem with the web site. Go to Mozilla.org, and you'll see that the current version in 2.0.0.1. I think his point wasn't so much the version number as the name in front of it. Websites don't know what Iceweasel is, they do know what Firefox is. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream? PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | And dream I do... ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
Please don't top post, we all read English in chronological (not random) order. http://wiki.ursine.ca/Best_Online_Quoting_Practices Piotr Dziubinski wrote: Only Etch supports amd64, so I was forced to use Etch. Command I have used: apt-get install firefox NOT apt-get install iceweasel I knew exactly what I was doing, because my friend told me that there will be no longer firefox in debian, instead of it will be iceweasel, so I was curious what will happen after typing: apt-get install firefox There is no longer firefox in debian etch, so after typing: apt-get install firefox I would like to see announcement: Firefox packages are no longer present in debian distribution, please try iceweasel. Do you see a difference? You could have cancelled and looked into why that is. iceweasel provides firefox because it *is* firefox. There is no functional difference between firefox and iceweasel. You're making a mountain out of a molehill. I don't use aptitude, because I prefer command line. Aptitude can be used from the command line instead. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
Martin Schulze wrote: Mike Hommey wrote: To be fair, it's not exactly true, because upgrading from firefox to iceweasel in debian means upgrading from version 1.0 or 1.5 to 2.0, and there are substancial changes that some people dislike, myself included. Which means Piotr is actually probably complaining about the fact that iceweasel is not quite the same as firefox used to be on his desktop, but on the other hand, if it were still named firefox, he would have the same opinion. Maybe not, because the name change makes it visible for him that there has been a change indeed. Changes from 1.0 to 1.5 or 1.5 to 2.0 may be accepted as upstream changes that just happen. Remember the Cola tests? Blindfolded have preferred Pepsi over Coca, with eyes open the result they preferred the Coca variant. I took the Pepsi Challenge and they video taped it. Pepsi lost blindfolded. Funny how you didn't see me in the Pepsi ads... -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
On Sun, Jan 28, 2007 at 04:52:36PM -0800, Steve Lamb wrote: I think his point wasn't so much the version number as the name in front of it. Websites don't know what Iceweasel is, they do know what Firefox is. I think that such a thing is bad. I understand the purpose behind the name change. But a browser that claims to be a Firefox-alike should function as much like Firefox as possible. To me that means not messing with the useragent string. That sort of thing is generally hidden from users and not likely to be easy to figure out/fix for many users in the case of a problem. Regards, -Roberto -- Roberto C. Sanchez http://people.connexer.com/~roberto http://www.connexer.com signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
Angelo Bertolli wrote: I'm not clear on why Firefox couldn't be put in non-free though. (I just figured it was for upgrades.) Why put something in non-free if trivial changes to the name and artwork makes it free? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
Ron Johnson wrote: On 01/28/07 08:43, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Jan 26, 2007 at 06:18:19PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: Like the people who read the CNN article about sterilizing sponges in the microwave? What about sterilizing sponges in the microwave? You must not read /.. You would think that after as long as we have had microwave ovens these days that people would be aware that microwaves require moisture to work properly... -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
Stephen R Laniel wrote: On Sat, Jan 27, 2007 at 11:03:59AM -0500, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote: Please quit top posting. Here is a script that I banged out in a few minutes, which surely needs much improvement but will hopefully go some way toward making the top-posting debate -- which is surely the least interesting debate in the history of computing -- go away: http://laniels.org/scripts/top_post_fixer.pl.txt This will tag all the lines in a given message by whether they're raw line or one containing a quote. It's primitive, but hopefully it's enough of a start that someone can expand upon it and end the spectacularly stupid debate. Why should the reader have to fix spectacularly broken presentation on behalf of the writer? If they want an audience, they should do it right the first time. It's not like this is anything new, RFC1855 is 12 years old now. People should just not learn from Outlook and expect it to be the way the Internet works. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
yea, verily, Paul Johnson sayith: ..trivial changes to the name and artwork makes it free? It's still a fork. The differences will grow. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
On Sunday 28 January 2007 18:42, Paul Johnson wrote: Stephen R Laniel wrote: On Sat, Jan 27, 2007 at 11:03:59AM -0500, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote: Please quit top posting. Here is a script that I banged out in a few minutes, which surely needs much improvement but will hopefully go some way toward making the top-posting debate -- which is surely the least interesting debate in the history of computing -- go away: http://laniels.org/scripts/top_post_fixer.pl.txt This will tag all the lines in a given message by whether they're raw line or one containing a quote. It's primitive, but hopefully it's enough of a start that someone can expand upon it and end the spectacularly stupid debate. Why should the reader have to fix spectacularly broken presentation on behalf of the writer? If they want an audience, they should do it right the first time. It's not like this is anything new, RFC1855 is 12 years old now. People should just not learn from Outlook and expect it to be the way the Internet works. Oh, and everyone that uses e-mail spends their time reading every RFC out there. Remember you're always going to be dealing with newbies -- at least until kids grow up writing e-mail the right way, and it'll take a while for that to happen. Face it: Usenet isn't the only place where September is eternal. Hal -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
On Sunday 28 January 2007 18:36, Paul Johnson wrote: Martin Schulze wrote: Mike Hommey wrote: To be fair, it's not exactly true, because upgrading from firefox to iceweasel in debian means upgrading from version 1.0 or 1.5 to 2.0, and there are substancial changes that some people dislike, myself included. Which means Piotr is actually probably complaining about the fact that iceweasel is not quite the same as firefox used to be on his desktop, but on the other hand, if it were still named firefox, he would have the same opinion. Maybe not, because the name change makes it visible for him that there has been a change indeed. Changes from 1.0 to 1.5 or 1.5 to 2.0 may be accepted as upstream changes that just happen. Remember the Cola tests? Blindfolded have preferred Pepsi over Coca, with eyes open the result they preferred the Coca variant. I took the Pepsi Challenge and they video taped it. Pepsi lost blindfolded. Funny how you didn't see me in the Pepsi ads... What makes you think that's the reason they didn't show you? ;-) Hal (Hey, you left the door open. All I did was walk through it.) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
On Sunday 28 January 2007 18:33, Paul Johnson wrote: ... Do you see a difference? You could have cancelled and looked into why that is. iceweasel provides firefox because it *is* firefox. There is no functional difference between firefox and iceweasel. You're making a mountain out of a molehill. Here's the part I don't get. Even though I'm making a living as a programmer, I'm self taught and have missed a lot -- and I don't know C or C++. I've tried to make sense of the listing of what was taken out of Firefox to make Iceweasel, yet I found it hard to follow. Just what was taken out as non-free if it doesn't effect functionality? If it doesn't make a difference, why is it in there? Or have all the non-free things been replaced by free code already? Hal -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 01/28/07 17:50, Paul Johnson wrote: Ron Johnson wrote: On 01/28/07 08:43, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Jan 26, 2007 at 06:18:19PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: Like the people who read the CNN article about sterilizing sponges in the microwave? What about sterilizing sponges in the microwave? You must not read /.. You would think that after as long as we have had microwave ovens these days that people would be aware that microwaves require moisture to work properly... Actually, no, I wouldn't. For the longest time, I thought it was the fat that was heated up. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFFvV9xS9HxQb37XmcRAqWEAJ9z9l2chLMXSrlv8Vz8GQjZDTlUoACeLilW GGlgorH0nsmk745zx8dlYec= =4YMt -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
Roberto C. Sanchez writes: But a browser that claims to be a Firefox-alike should function as much like Firefox as possible. To me that means not messing with the useragent string. I think that the maintainer believes (erroneously, IMHO) that he had to change it to avoid trademark infringement. -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
On Sun, 2007-01-28 at 20:28 -0600, Dave Patterson wrote: yea, verily, Paul Johnson sayith: ..trivial changes to the name and artwork makes it free? It's still a fork. The differences will grow. The only real changes since its inception are; The Logos, the name and some variables (and of course those settings). I've not found a single extension that was written for FireFox v2.0.0+ and without any intent to support IceWeasel. I guess, you can read the intent of IceWeasel project if you want *MORE* clarification. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Novell's Directory Services is a competitive product to Microsoft's Active Directory in much the same way that the Saturn V is a competitive product to those dinky little model rockets that kids light off down at the playfield. -- Thane Walkup signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
On Sunday 28 January 2007 22:08, Greg Folkert wrote: On Sun, 2007-01-28 at 20:28 -0600, Dave Patterson wrote: yea, verily, Paul Johnson sayith: ..trivial changes to the name and artwork makes it free? It's still a fork. The differences will grow. The only real changes since its inception are; The Logos, the name and some variables (and of course those settings). I've not found a single extension that was written for FireFox v2.0.0+ and without any intent to support IceWeasel. I guess, you can read the intent of IceWeasel project if you want *MORE* clarification. There's also a chance that people may start writing code to replace the non-free code in the original. There could be other reasons to fork a project. Hal -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
On Sun, 2007-01-28 at 21:13 -0500, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote: On Sun, Jan 28, 2007 at 04:52:36PM -0800, Steve Lamb wrote: I think his point wasn't so much the version number as the name in front of it. Websites don't know what Iceweasel is, they do know what Firefox is. I think that such a thing is bad. I understand the purpose behind the name change. But a browser that claims to be a Firefox-alike should function as much like Firefox as possible. To me that means not messing with the useragent string. That sort of thing is generally hidden from users and not likely to be easy to figure out/fix for many users in the case of a problem. Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8.1.1) Gecko/20061205 Iceweasel/2.0.0.1 (Debian-2.0.0.1+dfsg-2) Wow, that's a bigg'un. The User agent string has only had one thing changed. s/Iceweasel/Firefox/ Now, if you are programming for Standards... That wouldn't matter. When you don't and program for only Internet Explorer who cares about Firefox let alone Iceweasel. No care for Galeon, Konqueror, Safari or Opera... It has come down to the fact that Microsoft made a TON of proprietary extensions. Lets let them jam EOOXML down our throats. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Novell's Directory Services is a competitive product to Microsoft's Active Directory in much the same way that the Saturn V is a competitive product to those dinky little model rockets that kids light off down at the playfield. -- Thane Walkup signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
John Hasler wrote: Angelo writes: It was reiterated by Mozilla that if it doesn't do this, it will lose some ability to protect its trademarks. IANAL, but somehow it just doesn't sound right to me. It needn't be right in order to be true. Trademark law is loony. Actually, it's right, true, and not at all loony. Think about what a trademark is: a way to tell the buyer exactly what she's getting. If Kimberly-Clark let any old tissue maker put `Kleenex' on their box, there wouldn't be any purpose to the name, would there? So, K-C has to insist the name only be used for their product, and none other. [1] Therefore, the law simply recognizes that if things have gotten to the point where the name no longer specifies a particular maker's product, it has no use as a trademark, and therefore isn't one, and the owner loses the right to claim it as such. [2] /Therefore/, trademark owners have to do their best to keep such a thing from happening, which means not letting people call random programs ``Firefox''. And, if it's Free Software, it can easily turn into some random program, so don't do that. Debian is just the first one to hit the tripwire. Of course, why Mozilla thinks it /needs/ a trademark is another question, and one for which I can offer no answers. If Mozilla just accepted back reasonable patches, there'd be only One True Firefox, modulo a few lines of code here and there. If Joe's Browser Storm Door Company came out with something entirely different and called it that, they'd be laughed out of business. H, if it were Microsoft putting out the counterfeit, on the other hand Maybe Mozilla has a point there. -- Best wishes, Max Hyre, who took a class in this stuff several decades ago. [1] Of course, they're fighting a losing battle in the casual usage, but at least they can keep other tissue makers at bay. [2] Did you know `Zipper' used to be a trademark? And not so long ago only Merriam-Webster could call a dictionary `Webster's'? [3] Trademark law recognizes that no one's going to mistake a hawk for a handsaw, so two companies making those two separate products can both call them `Hamlet' brand, with no trademark infringement. The U.S. PTO has a whole list of different product types to help decide which are more or less non-conflicting: http://tess2.uspto.gov/netahtml/manual.html (NOTE: This is a biiiggg page: 1.2 MB, almost 2300 lines. Unless you're morbidly curious, you probably want to load just a bit and cancel the transfer.) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
