subject:"Re\: Debian glossary\?"


On 05/03/2018 12:28 PM, Brian wrote:

On Thu 03 May 2018 at 09:27:52 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
[snip]


My interpretation is that on my original visit I saw a defective mirror.

If a similar symptom appears in the future, is there any way to determine
which mirror I'm seeing?


I use Firefox. Prior to activating a link I would do

  netstat -tulpan | grep ESTABLISHED.*firefox

Immediately after activation, the command would be repeated. 'whois'
would then dtermine what has been connected to.



David has likely spotted my problem.
Getting to get familiar with netstat will be valuable.
Thank you.

Re: Debian mirror problem? was [Re: Debian glossary?]


On 05/03/2018 01:17 PM, David Wright wrote:

On Thu 03 May 2018 at 09:27:52 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:

On 04/30/2018 07:28 PM, David Wright wrote:

[*SNIP*]
I only saw a misunderstanding of how man pages impart information.
[*SNIP*]


On 04/30/2018 09:27 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:

The relevant line of the HTML of 
https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/coreutils/ls.1.en.html is


GNU coreutils online help: http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/;>http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/

and www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/ gives no navigational guidance.


Today {AND every time I've gone the there after my post} the
relevant line of
   https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/coreutils/ls.1.en.html
reads:


Full documentation at: http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/ls;>http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/ls



My interpretation is that on my original visit I saw a defective mirror.


Revisiting your two posts, you are commenting on two different places
on the web page.

First post Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 15:15:41 -0500:

REPORTING BUGS
GNU coreutils online help: 

Second post Date: Thu, 3 May 2018 09:27:52 -0500:

SEE ALSO
Full documentation at: 

Perhaps the fact that "coreutils" happens to end with "ls" confuses
the eye.


Possibly. But my memory had me convinced that I had searched for "Full 
documentation at:" each time.

Thank you.





If a similar symptom appears in the future, is there any way to
determine which mirror I'm seeing?


Cheers,
David.

Re: Debian mirror problem? was [Re: Debian glossary?]

2018-05-03 Thread David Wright

On Thu 03 May 2018 at 09:27:52 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 04/30/2018 07:28 PM, David Wright wrote:
> >[*SNIP*]
> >I only saw a misunderstanding of how man pages impart information.
> >[*SNIP*]
> 
> On 04/30/2018 09:27 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:
> >The relevant line of the HTML of 
> >https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/coreutils/ls.1.en.html is
> >
> >
> >GNU coreutils online help:  >href="http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/;>http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/
> >
> >and www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/ gives no navigational guidance.
> 
> Today {AND every time I've gone the there after my post} the
> relevant line of
>   https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/coreutils/ls.1.en.html
> reads:
> >
> >Full documentation at:  >href="http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/ls;>http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/ls
> 
> 
> My interpretation is that on my original visit I saw a defective mirror.

Revisiting your two posts, you are commenting on two different places
on the web page.

First post Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 15:15:41 -0500:

REPORTING BUGS
GNU coreutils online help: 

Second post Date: Thu, 3 May 2018 09:27:52 -0500:

SEE ALSO
Full documentation at:  

Perhaps the fact that "coreutils" happens to end with "ls" confuses
the eye.

> If a similar symptom appears in the future, is there any way to
> determine which mirror I'm seeing?

Cheers,
David.

Re: Debian mirror problem? was [Re: Debian glossary?]

2018-05-03 Thread Brian

On Thu 03 May 2018 at 09:27:52 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

> On 04/30/2018 07:28 PM, David Wright wrote:
> > [*SNIP*]
> > I only saw a misunderstanding of how man pages impart information.
> > [*SNIP*]
> 
> On 04/30/2018 09:27 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:
> > The relevant line of the HTML of 
> > https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/coreutils/ls.1.en.html is
> > 
> > 
> > GNU coreutils online help:  > href="http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/;>http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/
> > 
> > and www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/ gives no navigational guidance.
> 
> Today {AND every time I've gone the there after my post} the relevant line
> of
>   https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/coreutils/ls.1.en.html
> reads:
> > 
> > Full documentation at:  > href="http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/ls;>http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/ls
> 
> 
> My interpretation is that on my original visit I saw a defective mirror.
> 
> If a similar symptom appears in the future, is there any way to determine
> which mirror I'm seeing?

I use Firefox. Prior to activating a link I would do

 netstat -tulpan | grep ESTABLISHED.*firefox

Immediately after activation, the command would be repeated. 'whois'
would then dtermine what has been connected to.

-- 
Brian.

Re: Debian glossary?


On 04/30/2018 10:02 AM, David Wright wrote:

On Mon 30 Apr 2018 at 06:46:01 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:

[snip]

Comments?


Sure. You turn to page 108 of Running Linux 5th ed and read it there.

Don't have it? Download it. Type running-linux-5th-2006.pdf into
google and it's the first hit. Then type

$ wget 
https://the-eye.eu/public/Books/IT%20Various/running_linux_5th_edition.pdf

and read it.


I've downloaded it and bookmarked https://the-eye.eu/public/ for future 
reference. As I've written I have discovered ~1500 pages of "dead 
trees". That includes a 2002 copy of _A Practical Guide to Red Hat 
Linux_ by Sobell [no idea when acquired]. I'll start on both - the dead 
tree version can be more Vietcong to read.





Why "running-linux-5th-2006.pdf"? Because that's the name it has in my
filesystem. (I gave away my July 1995 paper copy to an enthusiastic
teenager who now works in IT.) Now get stuck into Unix Power Tools
3rd edition (replaces my October 1995 edition), Linux in a Nutshell
(ditto April 1997), and several others out there, all downloadable,
usually in slightly dated editions.

I thought you had a voracious appetite for reading in your retirement.



I have a tendency to read for the "question-du-jour", missing other 
information.

The result is spotty background.


I just don't understand how you can hang out hereabouts for over six
years and not know that d stands for directory, or claim to be
"uninitiated".

Cheers,
David.

Debian mirror problem? was [Re: Debian glossary?]


On 04/30/2018 07:28 PM, David Wright wrote:

[*SNIP*]
I only saw a misunderstanding of how man pages impart information.
[*SNIP*]


On 04/30/2018 09:27 AM, Richard Owlett wrote:

The relevant line of the HTML of 
https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/coreutils/ls.1.en.html is


GNU coreutils online help: http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/;>http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/

and www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/ gives no navigational guidance.


Today {AND every time I've gone the there after my post} the relevant 
line of

  https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/coreutils/ls.1.en.html
reads:


Full documentation at: http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/ls;>http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/ls



My interpretation is that on my original visit I saw a defective mirror.

If a similar symptom appears in the future, is there any way to 
determine which mirror I'm seeing?


TIA

Re: Debian glossary?

2018-05-01 Thread Andy Smith

Hello,

On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 06:46:01AM -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
> Man pages by their nature/purpose assume a certain level of expertise.
> They can be daunting for the uninitiated.
> 
> Comments?

https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/misc/nipple.html :
The only "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that it's
all learned.

If learning about this stuff wasn't difficult, quite a few of us
would be out of a job. Something that's even harder than attaining
the knowledge is writing good documentation about the knowledge.
Something that's nearly impossible is writing good documentation
that meets the needs of readers with every level of expertise,
including "none".

The learning also never ends. Even if you get to the point of having
all your computers doing exactly what you want with software that
hasn't changed in a decade, someone comes along and invents a new
init system, or finds out that all CPUs made in the last 20 years
are insecure, or something.

So, get used to it, I guess? ;)

Cheers,
Andy

Re: Debian glossary?

2018-05-01 Thread songbird

Brian wrote:
...
> Is there an advantage in using noauto *and* nofail?

  i leave nofail there as a reminder that i don't 
consider that partition important enough to be a 
fatal error even if i temporarily remove or change 
the noauto.

  having been bitten once i tend to be more 
cautious on subsequent outings...


  songbird

Re: Debian glossary?

2018-05-01 Thread Brian

On Tue 01 May 2018 at 07:28:43 -0400, songbird wrote:

> Gene Heskett wrote:
> ...
> > Let me clarify that, to a right Pain In The Ass when trying to write an 
> > armhf or arm64 systen to its boot u-sd card. They grab the card the 
> > instant its plugged in and then dd has a hell of a time trying to write 
> > to a mounted device.
> 
>   noauto is a frequently used option here along with nofail
> (in fstab).  if armhf or arm64 have broken mount commands 
> is not something i can answer...

Is there an advantage in using noauto *and* nofail?

-- 
Brian.

Re: Debian glossary?

2018-05-01 Thread songbird

Gene Heskett wrote:
...
> Let me clarify that, to a right Pain In The Ass when trying to write an 
> armhf or arm64 systen to its boot u-sd card. They grab the card the 
> instant its plugged in and then dd has a hell of a time trying to write 
> to a mounted device.

  noauto is a frequently used option here along with nofail
(in fstab).  if armhf or arm64 have broken mount commands 
is not something i can answer...

  songbird

Re: Debian glossary?

On Mon 30 Apr 2018 at 15:15:41 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:
> On 04/30/2018 11:58 AM, Brian wrote:
> >On Mon 30 Apr 2018 at 09:27:02 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
> >[snip]
> >>
> >>You have identified a documentation bug!
> >
> >No, I haven't. You may think *you* have, but you haven't.
> >
> >>The relevant line of the HTML of
> >>https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/coreutils/ls.1.en.html is
> >>
> >>
> >>GNU coreutils online help:  >>href="http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/;>http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/
> >>
> >>and www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/ gives no navigational guidance.
> >>
> 
> *YES*
> *YOU* have identified a bug.
> Just not the one either of us thought we were discussing.

I only saw a misunderstanding of how man pages impart information.

> Carefully read the quoted HTML.
> There be a missing "ls".

I'm not in the habit of reading HTML but I went to your reference
and it looks like your quotation is rendered as:

REPORTING BUGS

GNU coreutils online help: 

This is exactly what's written at the end of the local man page too.
Clicking on this link takes me (after allowing an automatic redirect) to:
https://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/coreutils.html

where there's a bug reporting section a little over halfway down the page:

Bug Reports

If you think you have found a bug in Coreutils, then …

> I suspect a corrupt mirror.

Why? Where is the "ls" string missing from?

> Have *NO* idea how to verify.
> Will try at a similar time tomorrow.

You can compare the webpage above with the output of
$ man ls
yourself at any time of day.

> Is there any way to establish *EXACTLY* which mirror I'm viewing?

Cheers,
David.

Re: Debian glossary?


On 04/30/2018 11:58 AM, Brian wrote:

On Mon 30 Apr 2018 at 09:27:02 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
[snip]


You have identified a documentation bug!


No, I haven't. You may think *you* have, but you haven't.


The relevant line of the HTML of
https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/coreutils/ls.1.en.html is


GNU coreutils online help: http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/;>http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/

and www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/ gives no navigational guidance.



*YES*
*YOU* have identified a bug.
Just not the one either of us thought we were discussing.

Carefully read the quoted HTML.
There be a missing "ls".

I suspect a corrupt mirror.
Have *NO* idea how to verify.
Will try at a similar time tomorrow.

Is there any way to establish *EXACTLY* which mirror I'm viewing?

Re: Debian glossary?

On Monday 30 April 2018 12:03:31 David Wright wrote:

> On Mon 30 Apr 2018 at 10:44:58 (-0400), Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Monday 30 April 2018 09:24:12 Richard Owlett wrote:
> > > Sometimes automount and cousins are convenient. Other times
> > > %@%$^$!*() ;/
> >
> > Let me clarify that, to a right Pain In The Ass when trying to write
> > an armhf or arm64 systen to its boot u-sd card. They grab the card
> > the instant its plugged in and then dd has a hell of a time trying
> > to write to a mounted device.
>
> Yes, I seem to remember pointing out that the cause might be Package:
> usbmount, and being told that it wasn't there and I had an attitude
> problem.

My apologies David. It turned out to be hiding in plain sight and that is 
where I killed it.

> In the end I think you blamed the "few trillion gallons of 
> water [flowing] down the West Fork River" for a recollection problem.
>
That also is a definite possibility. My shorter term memory is suffering 
from oldtimers. Goes with both the 83 years, and I think from being a 
pulmonary embolism surviver 3 years back up the log.

> > > > On Monday, April 30, 2018 08:23:43 AM rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >> On Monday, April 30, 2018 07:46:01 AM Richard Owlett wrote:
> > > >>> Debian documentation NOT written for hoi polloi.
> >
> > And it needs to be.
>
> I can't understand why Debian would involve itself in writing
> tutorials for commands like mount, ls, and so on, or glossaries
> of terms like strictatime and device file.
>
> All this is standard linux/unix information, well catered for by
> libraries of books from several well-known publishers, O'Reilly
> being one of the best known. I spent 1997/8 immersing myself in such
> texts, at a time when these books had to be bought. (Public libraries
> only had Idiots' guides to W95, etc.) Now there are a wealth of
> free PDFs at every level of expertise on the web, there for the
> downloading.

> Cheers,
> David.

Thanks David.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page

Re: Debian glossary?


On 04/30/2018 12:12 PM, Brian wrote:

On Mon 30 Apr 2018 at 10:01:13 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:


On 04/30/2018 08:38 AM, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:

On Monday, April 30, 2018 09:06:09 AM Richard Owlett wrote:
[snip]

A partial solution might include "Summer of Documentation" projects
along side of "Summer of Code".


Yes, or encouraging people to contribute to HowTos, wikis, the Linux
Documentation Project (which seems rather moribund at this point), and such.

BTW, write to google--you might get them interested in a SOD project--or some
other "flush" organization--maybe Amazon??


I avoid Google!

Having a strong preference for brick-n-mortar I've never had any contact
with Amazon. Do they have any history of involvement in tech issues?


You could say that:

https://aws.amazon.com/



mea culpa  mea culpa
Actually I didn't have in mind sales of technology, but more along the 
lines of Google's SOC claiming to foster the next generation of 
technologists.


A quick glance suggests that it is worth of further investigation.
I did immediately find one thing in their favor.
Having some visual, problems I surf with site defined colors AND 
backgrounds disabled. The site is ugly with that constraint active.


*HOWEVER* setting things to accept the designer's choices results in an 
attractive legible display.

A *RARE* and valuable occurrence.

Thanks for the link.
When corporations do "something right", they should be acknowledged.
I'll browse further.

Re: Debian glossary?

On Mon 30 Apr 2018 at 13:23:38 -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 06:19:11PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> > On Mon 30 Apr 2018 at 10:34:23 -0500, David Wright wrote:
> > > info coreutils   came up with 18696.
> > 
> > Isn't 18696 the byte count?
> 
> No.
> 
> wooledg:~$ info coreutils | wc
>   18696  111230  863180

Just testing. :)

-- 
Brian.

Re: Debian glossary?

On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 06:19:11PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> On Mon 30 Apr 2018 at 10:34:23 -0500, David Wright wrote:
> > info coreutils   came up with 18696.
> 
> Isn't 18696 the byte count?

No.

wooledg:~$ info coreutils | wc
  18696  111230  863180

Re: Debian glossary?

On Mon 30 Apr 2018 at 10:34:23 -0500, David Wright wrote:

> On Mon 30 Apr 2018 at 11:16:46 (-0400), Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 10:59:03AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > On Monday 30 April 2018 10:44:56 Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > > > wooledg:~$ man ls | wc
> > > > 233 9117823
> > > > wooledg:~$ info coreutils ls | wc
> > > > 8354551   34791
> > > >
> > > > In this example, the info page is about 4 times as large as the man
> > > > page.
> > > 
> > > That is not a fair comparison. The manpage covers one specific piece, a 
> > > single utility, where coreutils supposedly covers it all.
> > 
> > "info coreutils ls" is just the "ls" part.  Please actually try it.
> > (I suggest "info coreutils ls | less" as an alternative to the "info"
> > reader program.)
> 
> I stepped through   info coreutils ls   adding together the numbers of lines
> reported by less and ended up at 908.
> 
> info coreutils   came up with 18696.

Isn't 18696 the byte count?

-- 
Brian.

Re: Debian glossary?

On Mon 30 Apr 2018 at 10:01:13 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

> On 04/30/2018 08:38 AM, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Monday, April 30, 2018 09:06:09 AM Richard Owlett wrote:
> > [snip]
> > > A partial solution might include "Summer of Documentation" projects
> > > along side of "Summer of Code".
> > 
> > Yes, or encouraging people to contribute to HowTos, wikis, the Linux
> > Documentation Project (which seems rather moribund at this point), and such.
> > 
> > BTW, write to google--you might get them interested in a SOD project--or 
> > some
> > other "flush" organization--maybe Amazon??
> 
> I avoid Google!
> 
> Having a strong preference for brick-n-mortar I've never had any contact
> with Amazon. Do they have any history of involvement in tech issues?

You could say that:

https://aws.amazon.com/

-- 
Brian.

Re: Debian glossary?

On Mon 30 Apr 2018 at 09:27:02 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

> On 04/30/2018 08:20 AM, Brian wrote:
> > On Mon 30 Apr 2018 at 06:46:01 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:
> > 
> > > Debian documentation NOT written for hoi polloi.
> > 
> > Strong words.
> 
> BUT true!

No they are not. Valid, perhaps.

> > 
> > [...]
> > > Output of "ls -Rdl /media/richard/rco1" is
> > > "drwxr-xr-x 3 root root 4096 Apr 28 23:49 /media/richard/rco1".
> > > 
> > > { In "drwxr-xr-x 3", what do "d" and "3" tell me? }
> > 
> > At the end of ls(1) it says:
> > 
> >   Full documentation at: 
> >   or available locally via: info '(coreutils) ls invocation'
> 
> You have identified a documentation bug!

No, I haven't. You may think *you* have, but you haven't.

> The relevant line of the HTML of
> https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/coreutils/ls.1.en.html is
> 
> 
> GNU coreutils online help:  href="http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/;>http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/
> 
> and www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/ gives no navigational guidance.
> 
> Drilling down to
> https://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/manual/html_node/What-information-is-listed.html#What-information-is-listed
> does indeed identify "d".
> 
> > 
> > I think "Full" would imply more detail than in the manual. I'd use
> > 'pinfo ls' for something more friendly than info.
> 
> Hadn't heard of pinfo and it wasn't installed. Looks interesting.
> Will read man page online later.
> 
> > 
> > > https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/mount/mount.8.en.html says in part:
> > > /begin quote
> > > strictatime
> > >  Allows to explicitly request full atime updates. This makes it 
> > > possible
> > > for the kernel to default to relatime or noatime but still allow userspace
> > > to override it. For more details about the default system mount options 
> > > see
> > > /proc/mounts.
> > > /end quote
> > > 
> > > { Having used a file manager to look at /proc/mounts without 
> > > comprehension,
> > > I interpreted the context of "/proc/mounts" to indicate that there would 
> > > be
> > > a reference to it elsewhere in https://manpages.debian.org . Nope. }
> > 
> > 'cat /proc/mounts' doesn't necessarily improve your comprehension but it
> > is probably quicker. For a reference, you want proc(5);
> 
> You have identified ANOTHER bug.  "/proc/mounts" should read "proc(5)".

No, I haven't. And, no, it shouldn't.

> > that takes you to fstab(5).
> > 
> > > https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/mount/mount.8.en.html makes several
> > > references to "block special device".
> > > { "block special device" ??? }
> > 
> > I thought that was well explained.
> 
> I admit the author would claim so. But it left me head scratching.
> 
> > What does the internet say about it?
> 
> Various pages say various things while raising more questions clouding the
> issue.
> 
> > 
> > > Man pages by their nature/purpose assume a certain level of expertise.
> > > They can be daunting for the uninitiated.
> > 
> > Not a novel observation - but you are not uninitiated or a newcomer. Then
> > there is always a search engine at hand or the ever-helpful debian-user. >
> 
>  Unwarranted assumption implied by "but you are not uninitiated or a
> newcomer".
> 
> As to computers generally - true.
> 
> As an E.E. student in the 60's took "Introduction to Computers" followed by
> a semester of FORTRAN. In the 70's I did work for DEC. *BUT* I was in "Power
> Supply Engineering". My name (or at least my initials) appear on some H720-E
> documentation.
> 
> BUT, until abandoning WinXP for Squeeze I was only a USER without any OS
> background. Since then I've been self-taught, there not even being a local
> LUG.

You had access to computers when you were young? How fortunate! All we
had was a second-hand abacus with a bead missing and a manual written in
the Chinese language. Try dividing £112/13s/7d by £2/7s/11d with that.

-- 
Brian

Re: Debian glossary?

2018-04-30 Thread Felix Dietrich

Richard Owlett  writes:

> Debian documentation NOT written for hoi polloi.
>
> This morning's partial set of items I do not grok include:
> 
>
> Partial output of "mount -l" is
> "/dev/sdc1 on /media/richard/rco1 type ext4
> (rw,nosuid,nodev,relatime,data=ordered,uhelper=udisks2) [rco1]".
>
> { (...) Although I can interpret many items, several I can't. I
> suspect (...) is trying to tell me something by which items are/aren't
> listed.}

Between the parentheses are listed the mount options that are set:

- rw   :: mounted read-write
- nosuid   :: do not allow setting of SUID bit
  (executables with set SUID are run as the
  owner of the file, not the executing user)
- nodev:: do not allow device files (i.e. files that
  act as an interface to a driver)
- relatime :: update file access time only when modification
  time is newer than access time (reduces number
  of writes to a drive)

The rest I do not know and therefore you have to look them up yourself.

„findmnt” provides a pretty display of mounted devices and displays a
header telling you what the data in the columns refers to.

> Output of "ls -Rdl /media/richard/rco1" is
> "drwxr-xr-x 3 root root 4096 Apr 28 23:49 /media/richard/rco1".
>
> { In "drwxr-xr-x 3", what do "d" and "3" tell me? }

Programs that are part of the GNU software distribution usually have, in
addition to the terser man pages, more comprehensive info documents.
These can be accessed with the „info” program (if it is not already
installed: the Debian package goes by the same name).  For your specific
question the information can be found in the info document for the
„coreutils” package; the following command should display the
appropriate section: „info --index-search='-l <6>' coreutils”. [1]

In short: „d” denotes directories; „3” is the count of hard links.

That the man page for „ls” does not describe the output format I find
odd; might be worth a bug report (look at the „reportbug” program)?

> https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/mount/mount.8.en.html says in part:
> /begin quote
> strictatime
> Allows to explicitly request full atime updates. This makes it
> possible for the kernel to default to relatime or noatime but still
> allow userspace to override it. For more details about the default
> system mount options see /proc/mounts.
> /end quote
>
> { Having used a file manager to look at /proc/mounts without
> comprehension, I interpreted the context of "/proc/mounts" to indicate
> that there would be a reference to it elsewhere in
> https://manpages.debian.org . Nope. }

You can read „/proc/mounts” using an editor or within the shell using a
pager, e.g. „less /proc/mounts”, or simply get it output to your
terminal using „cat /proc/mounts”.  It will show you information of the
mounts currently known by the kernel.  The output, though, is not
especially user friendly, but seems to follow the same format as
„/etc/fstab”.

What the man page's author meant by „for more details about the default
system mount options see /proc/mounts” I am not certain.  Maybe he only
wanted to say that „/proc/mounts” displays the mount options currently
applied and if you do not specify some yourself you can deduce from the
displayed options the kernel's default options?

It is a rather confusing sentence: you could file a bug report (look at
the „reportbug” program) requesting clarification.

> https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/mount/mount.8.en.html makes
> several references to "block special device".
> { "block special device" ??? }

Devices are put in two rough categories: block devices and character
devices.  Block devices are those that are partitioned into individual
accessable blocks; discs are usually considered block devices.
Character devices are all the rest: mice, keyboards, printers,
terminals.  They provide a stream of information.

> Man pages by their nature/purpose assume a certain level of expertise.
> They can be daunting for the uninitiated.

As has been mention by rhkramer for the „uninitiated” there have been
written introductory texts, though suggestions I have also not right
now.

Using a search engine usually yields good results for the more common
terms and also on Wikipedia can be found helpful computer related
articles, e.g. for block devices:
.

[1] Also available on the web:

https://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/manual/html_node/What-information-is-listed.html#index-verbose-ls-format

--
Felix Dietrich

Re: Debian glossary?

On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 12:07:51PM -0400, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> Well, I wouldn't say it's untrue--it is sometimes (and maybe often) true--I 
> don't have an example at hand, but back in the days when I did look at an 
> info 
> page after viewing a man page, I often found the exact same content (maybe 
> modulo some formatting differences or similar).

You might be thinking of programs for which no man page exists *at all*,
in which case the "man page" is literally a copy of a texinfo-to-ascii
output from the info page.  There are a few of those out there, though
I can't think of one off the top of my head.

But the more typical GNU case has a stub/minimalist man page, with the
note that the full documentation is in the info page.

Examples:

wooledg:~$ man rm | grep info
  output version information and exit
   or available locally via: info '(coreutils) rm invocation'

wooledg:~$ man grep | grep -A5 'Full Doc'
   Full Documentation
   A   complete   manual   ⟨http://www.gnu.org/software/grep/manual/⟩   is
   available.   If  the  info  and grep programs are properly installed at
   your site, the command

  info grep

Re: Debian glossary?

On Monday, April 30, 2018 10:44:56 AM Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 10:37:22AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:

> > as those files appear to be made by just copying the man
> > page into the info format.
> 
> That's untrue.  Compare a GNU info page to the same tool's GNU man page
> and you will see a huge difference.
> 
> wooledg:~$ man ls | wc
> 233 9117823
> wooledg:~$ info coreutils ls | wc
> 8354551   34791

Well, I wouldn't say it's untrue--it is sometimes (and maybe often) true--I 
don't have an example at hand, but back in the days when I did look at an info 
page after viewing a man page, I often found the exact same content (maybe 
modulo some formatting differences or similar).

Of course, I don't know whether the man pages copied the info pages or vice 
versa (in those cases).

Re: Debian glossary?

On Mon 30 Apr 2018 at 10:44:58 (-0400), Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Monday 30 April 2018 09:24:12 Richard Owlett wrote:

> > Sometimes automount and cousins are convenient. Other times %@%$^$!*()
> > ;/
> >
> Let me clarify that, to a right Pain In The Ass when trying to write an 
> armhf or arm64 systen to its boot u-sd card. They grab the card the 
> instant its plugged in and then dd has a hell of a time trying to write 
> to a mounted device.

Yes, I seem to remember pointing out that the cause might be Package: usbmount,
and being told that it wasn't there and I had an attitude problem.
In the end I think you blamed the "few trillion gallons of water [flowing] down
the West Fork River" for a recollection problem.

> > > On Monday, April 30, 2018 08:23:43 AM rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> On Monday, April 30, 2018 07:46:01 AM Richard Owlett wrote:
> > >>> Debian documentation NOT written for hoi polloi.
> 
> And it needs to be.

I can't understand why Debian would involve itself in writing
tutorials for commands like mount, ls, and so on, or glossaries
of terms like strictatime and device file.

All this is standard linux/unix information, well catered for by
libraries of books from several well-known publishers, O'Reilly
being one of the best known. I spent 1997/8 immersing myself in such
texts, at a time when these books had to be bought. (Public libraries
only had Idiots' guides to W95, etc.) Now there are a wealth of
free PDFs at every level of expertise on the web, there for the
downloading.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Debian glossary?

On Mon 30 Apr 2018 at 11:16:46 (-0400), Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 10:59:03AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Monday 30 April 2018 10:44:56 Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > > wooledg:~$ man ls | wc
> > > 233 9117823
> > > wooledg:~$ info coreutils ls | wc
> > > 8354551   34791
> > >
> > > In this example, the info page is about 4 times as large as the man
> > > page.
> > 
> > That is not a fair comparison. The manpage covers one specific piece, a 
> > single utility, where coreutils supposedly covers it all.
> 
> "info coreutils ls" is just the "ls" part.  Please actually try it.
> (I suggest "info coreutils ls | less" as an alternative to the "info"
> reader program.)

I stepped through   info coreutils ls   adding together the numbers of lines
reported by less and ended up at 908.

info coreutils   came up with 18696.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Debian glossary?

On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 10:59:03AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Monday 30 April 2018 10:44:56 Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > wooledg:~$ man ls | wc
> > 233 9117823
> > wooledg:~$ info coreutils ls | wc
> > 8354551   34791
> >
> > In this example, the info page is about 4 times as large as the man
> > page.
> 
> That is not a fair comparison. The manpage covers one specific piece, a 
> single utility, where coreutils supposedly covers it all.

"info coreutils ls" is just the "ls" part.  Please actually try it.
(I suggest "info coreutils ls | less" as an alternative to the "info"
reader program.)

Re: Debian glossary?

On Mon 30 Apr 2018 at 06:46:01 (-0500), Richard Owlett wrote:
> Debian documentation NOT written for hoi polloi.
> 
> I've been trying to debug my usage of debootstrap.
> Therefore been reading many man pages - often with incomplete comprehension.
> E.G. In reply to one of my questions a gentleman replied with the
> proper syntax for one command. He followed it with several
> quotations from a man page [subtle hint to read same ;]. I replied
> that I had read the man page, but even after reading his excerpts I
> still didn't comprehend.
> 
> This morning's partial set of items I do not grok include:
> 
> 
> Partial output of "mount -l" is
> "/dev/sdc1 on /media/richard/rco1 type ext4
> (rw,nosuid,nodev,relatime,data=ordered,uhelper=udisks2) [rco1]".
> 
> { (...) Although I can interpret many items, several I can't. I
> suspect (...) is trying to tell me something by which items
> are/aren't listed.}
> 
> Output of "ls -Rdl /media/richard/rco1" is
> "drwxr-xr-x 3 root root 4096 Apr 28 23:49 /media/richard/rco1".
> 
> { In "drwxr-xr-x 3", what do "d" and "3" tell me? }
> 
> https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/mount/mount.8.en.html says in part:
> /begin quote
> strictatime
> Allows to explicitly request full atime updates. This makes it
> possible for the kernel to default to relatime or noatime but still
> allow userspace to override it. For more details about the default
> system mount options see /proc/mounts.
> /end quote
> 
> { Having used a file manager to look at /proc/mounts without
> comprehension, I interpreted the context of "/proc/mounts" to
> indicate that there would be a reference to it elsewhere in
> https://manpages.debian.org . Nope. }
> 
> https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/mount/mount.8.en.html makes
> several references to "block special device".
> { "block special device" ??? }
> 
> Man pages by their nature/purpose assume a certain level of expertise.
> They can be daunting for the uninitiated.
> 
> Comments?

Sure. You turn to page 108 of Running Linux 5th ed and read it there.

Don't have it? Download it. Type running-linux-5th-2006.pdf into
google and it's the first hit. Then type

$ wget 
https://the-eye.eu/public/Books/IT%20Various/running_linux_5th_edition.pdf

and read it.

Why "running-linux-5th-2006.pdf"? Because that's the name it has in my
filesystem. (I gave away my July 1995 paper copy to an enthusiastic
teenager who now works in IT.) Now get stuck into Unix Power Tools
3rd edition (replaces my October 1995 edition), Linux in a Nutshell
(ditto April 1997), and several others out there, all downloadable,
usually in slightly dated editions.

I thought you had a voracious appetite for reading in your retirement.
I just don't understand how you can hang out hereabouts for over six
years and not know that d stands for directory, or claim to be
"uninitiated".

Cheers,
David.

Re: Debian glossary?


On 04/30/2018 08:38 AM, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:

On Monday, April 30, 2018 09:06:09 AM Richard Owlett wrote:
[snip]

A partial solution might include "Summer of Documentation" projects
along side of "Summer of Code".


Yes, or encouraging people to contribute to HowTos, wikis, the Linux
Documentation Project (which seems rather moribund at this point), and such.

BTW, write to google--you might get them interested in a SOD project--or some
other "flush" organization--maybe Amazon??


I avoid Google!

Having a strong preference for brick-n-mortar I've never had any contact 
with Amazon. Do they have any history of involvement in tech issues?


On a mailing list of an Oregon LUG, I once suggested that high school 
English teachers include tech writing as a possible assignment. Back in 
my day shop classes (woodworking, metal shop, auto mechanics) were used 
as motivation to stay in school - education being the desired side 
effect. Students today are fascinated with computers - a similar 
approach might be worthwhile. Also students with writing talent might be 
attracted to tech writing.

Re: Debian glossary?

On Monday 30 April 2018 10:44:56 Greg Wooledge wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 10:37:22AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > The recommendation to get the full story via info/pinfo is a
> > running joke
>
> This is specific to the GNU project.  They're pushing their "info"
> reader and their "texinfo" documentation format for their own
> political reasons. (To be honest, the *roff format used by man pages
> *does* suck.  But still.)
>
> > as those files appear to be made by just copying the man
> > page into the info format.
>
> That's untrue.  Compare a GNU info page to the same tool's GNU man
> page and you will see a huge difference.
>
> wooledg:~$ man ls | wc
> 233 9117823
> wooledg:~$ info coreutils ls | wc
> 8354551   34791
>
> In this example, the info page is about 4 times as large as the man
> page.

That is not a fair comparison. The manpage covers one specific piece, a 
single utility, where coreutils supposedly covers it all.


-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page

Re: Debian glossary?

On Monday 30 April 2018 09:24:12 Richard Owlett wrote:

> On 04/30/2018 07:27 AM, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Oh, and PS: it is not very clear to me in what you wrote what you
> > are having trouble understanding -- if you are seeking answers,
> > maybe you should ask more clearly.
> >
> >  From my peanut gallery observation of this thread, I think one of
> > your problems is that the device you are tying to use (to install
> > Linux, iirc?) is mounted with the nodev option, which, somebody
> > explained in a followup post, is not what you want to use.
> >
> > Are you familiar with the mstab, fstab, mount, and umount commands? 
> > I think it would be helpful if you were...
>
> *ROFL* Them be motivation for my post ;{
> When I wrote "... a gentleman replied with the proper syntax for one
> command", I was referring to that post. It solved _one_ of my
> problems.
>
> Based on 50+ years of hitting "corner cases" while trouble shooting in
> various disciplines, I've cleared hard disk space on another machine
> to avoid attempting to use a flash drive as a debootstrap target.
>
> Sometimes automount and cousins are convenient. Other times %@%$^$!*()
> ;/
>
Let me clarify that, to a right Pain In The Ass when trying to write an 
armhf or arm64 systen to its boot u-sd card. They grab the card the 
instant its plugged in and then dd has a hell of a time trying to write 
to a mounted device.

> > On Monday, April 30, 2018 08:23:43 AM rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Monday, April 30, 2018 07:46:01 AM Richard Owlett wrote:
> >>> Debian documentation NOT written for hoi polloi.

And it needs to be.


-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page

Re: Debian glossary?

On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 10:37:22AM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> The recommendation to get the full story via info/pinfo is a 
> running joke

This is specific to the GNU project.  They're pushing their "info" reader
and their "texinfo" documentation format for their own political reasons.
(To be honest, the *roff format used by man pages *does* suck.  But still.)

> as those files appear to be made by just copying the man 
> page into the info format.

That's untrue.  Compare a GNU info page to the same tool's GNU man page
and you will see a huge difference.

wooledg:~$ man ls | wc
233 9117823
wooledg:~$ info coreutils ls | wc
8354551   34791

In this example, the info page is about 4 times as large as the man page.

Re: Debian glossary?

On Monday 30 April 2018 09:06:09 Richard Owlett wrote:

> On 04/30/2018 07:23 AM, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Monday, April 30, 2018 07:46:01 AM Richard Owlett wrote:
> >> Debian documentation NOT written for hoi polloi.
> >
> > ...
> >
> >> Man pages by their nature/purpose assume a certain level of
> >> expertise. They can be daunting for the uninitiated.
> >>
> >> Comments?
> >
> > True.  Have you read one or more general introductions to Linux (I
> > have none to suggest at the momen).
>
> Yeah, but not recently.
> You just reminded me that I have ~1500 pages of dusty dead trees
> available.
>
> > Man pages are (or were, at least) intended to be more reminders for
> > people that have at least a basic understanding of the command (or
> > subject) rather than a tool to learn about it from scratch.
>
> PREACH it brother. I've made similar comments in the past.
> The problem on this list is that newbies are often told
>  "*READ THE MANUAL!*"
> as if it were a panacea.
>
> > (When I switched from Windows to LInux, I found it very frustrating
> > until I read several introductions to Linux (of various sorts,
> > including at least skimming some thick books full of commands), and,
> > I joined a local LUG.)
>
> I've followed a similar path abandoning WinXP for Squeeze.
> The local LUG folded before I retired a decade ago. Never had a chance
> to attend any meetings as they were on weekday evenings and I worked
> graveyard shift. The nearest LUG's I know of are ~200 miles away (I
> live in RURAL S.W. Missouri where individual species of livestock
> outnumber people ;)
>
> A partial solution might include "Summer of Documentation" projects
> along side of "Summer of Code".

Hear! Hear!! As a 20 year veteran of linux for the main stuff here at the 
coyote.den, I won't say exclusively linux because there were other 
machines, still are, and they run a simplified unix too, Nitros-9, but 
none of them ran windows longer than to note that it too was broken, 
usually detected within a day or so of acquireing the machine.

What I'm driving at is the message from on high, to those writing man 
pages for everything but bash, and even that can be less than ideal, 
seem to have been given orders that a man page is at maximum, 2 screen 
sized pages.  And that often doesn't give room to adequately cover what 
a given utility can do. Every option should have an example and its 
results. The recommendation to get the full story via info/pinfo is a 
running joke as those files appear to be made by just copying the man 
page into the info format. If you want to do a man-page, do it right and 
cover it all. Or collaborate with someone that can write it well.

My $0.02 on the subject. But adjust its worth by the inflation since 
1934.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page

Re: Debian glossary?

On 04/30/2018 08:20 AM, Brian wrote:

On Mon 30 Apr 2018 at 06:46:01 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

Debian documentation NOT written for hoi polloi.

Strong words.

BUT true!

[...]

Output of "ls -Rdl /media/richard/rco1" is
"drwxr-xr-x 3 root root 4096 Apr 28 23:49 /media/richard/rco1".

{ In "drwxr-xr-x 3", what do "d" and "3" tell me? }

At the end of ls(1) it says:

Full documentation at:
or available locally via: info '(coreutils) ls invocation'

You have identified a documentation bug!
The relevant line of the HTML of
https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/coreutils/ls.1.en.html is

GNU coreutils online help: href="http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/;>http://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/

and www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/ gives no navigational guidance.

Drilling down to
https://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/manual/html_node/What-information-is-listed.html#What-information-is-listed
does indeed identify "d".

I think "Full" would imply more detail than in the manual. I'd use
'pinfo ls' for something more friendly than info.

Hadn't heard of pinfo and it wasn't installed. Looks interesting.
Will read man page online later.

https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/mount/mount.8.en.html says in part:
/begin quote
strictatime
Allows to explicitly request full atime updates. This makes it possible
for the kernel to default to relatime or noatime but still allow userspace
to override it. For more details about the default system mount options see
/proc/mounts.
/end quote

{ Having used a file manager to look at /proc/mounts without comprehension,
I interpreted the context of "/proc/mounts" to indicate that there would be
a reference to it elsewhere in https://manpages.debian.org . Nope. }

'cat /proc/mounts' doesn't necessarily improve your comprehension but it
is probably quicker. For a reference, you want proc(5);

You have identified ANOTHER bug. "/proc/mounts" should read "proc(5)".

that takes you to fstab(5).

https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/mount/mount.8.en.html makes several
references to "block special device".
{ "block special device" ??? }

I thought that was well explained.

I admit the author would claim so. But it left me head scratching.

What does the internet say about it?

Various pages say various things while raising more questions clouding
the issue.

Man pages by their nature/purpose assume a certain level of expertise.
They can be daunting for the uninitiated.

Not a novel observation - but you are not uninitiated or a newcomer. Then
there is always a search engine at hand or the ever-helpful debian-user. >

Unwarranted assumption implied by "but you are not uninitiated or
a newcomer".

As to computers generally - true.

As an E.E. student in the 60's took "Introduction to Computers" followed
by a semester of FORTRAN. In the 70's I did work for DEC. *BUT* I was in
"Power Supply Engineering". My name (or at least my initials) appear on
some H720-E documentation.

BUT, until abandoning WinXP for Squeeze I was only a USER without any OS
background. Since then I've been self-taught, there not even being a
local LUG.

Re: Debian glossary?

On Monday, April 30, 2018 09:06:09 AM Richard Owlett wrote:

> PREACH it brother. I've made similar comments in the past.
> The problem on this list is that newbies are often told
>  "*READ THE MANUAL!*"
> as if it were a panacea.

True, I guess I always (well, usually) tried to interpret that as read some 
documentation, which was often facilitated by a google search looking for, 
among other things, howtos, wikis, forums, mail lists and such, rather than, 
specifically man pages.

> The local LUG folded before I retired a decade ago. Never had a chance
> to attend any meetings as they were on weekday evenings and I worked
> graveyard shift. The nearest LUG's I know of are ~200 miles away (I live
> in RURAL S.W. Missouri where individual species of livestock outnumber
> people ;)

Too bad about the LUG, re the livestock: LOL!

> A partial solution might include "Summer of Documentation" projects
> along side of "Summer of Code".

Yes, or encouraging people to contribute to HowTos, wikis, the Linux 
Documentation Project (which seems rather moribund at this point), and such.

BTW, write to google--you might get them interested in a SOD project--or some 
other "flush" organization--maybe Amazon??

Re: Debian glossary?


On 04/30/2018 07:27 AM, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:

Oh, and PS: it is not very clear to me in what you wrote what you are having
trouble understanding -- if you are seeking answers, maybe you should ask more
clearly.

 From my peanut gallery observation of this thread, I think one of your
problems is that the device you are tying to use (to install Linux, iirc?) is
mounted with the nodev option, which, somebody explained in a followup post,
is not what you want to use.

Are you familiar with the mstab, fstab, mount, and umount commands?  I think
it would be helpful if you were...


*ROFL* Them be motivation for my post ;{
When I wrote "... a gentleman replied with the proper syntax for one 
command", I was referring to that post. It solved _one_ of my problems.


Based on 50+ years of hitting "corner cases" while trouble shooting in 
various disciplines, I've cleared hard disk space on another machine to 
avoid attempting to use a flash drive as a debootstrap target.


Sometimes automount and cousins are convenient. Other times %@%$^$!*() ;/





On Monday, April 30, 2018 08:23:43 AM rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:

On Monday, April 30, 2018 07:46:01 AM Richard Owlett wrote:

Debian documentation NOT written for hoi polloi.

Re: Debian glossary?

On Mon 30 Apr 2018 at 06:46:01 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

> Debian documentation NOT written for hoi polloi.

Strong words.

[...]
 
> Output of "ls -Rdl /media/richard/rco1" is
> "drwxr-xr-x 3 root root 4096 Apr 28 23:49 /media/richard/rco1".
> 
> { In "drwxr-xr-x 3", what do "d" and "3" tell me? }

At the end of ls(1) it says:

 Full documentation at: 
 or available locally via: info '(coreutils) ls invocation'

I think "Full" would imply more detail than in the manual. I'd use
'pinfo ls' for something more friendly than info.

> https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/mount/mount.8.en.html says in part:
> /begin quote
> strictatime
> Allows to explicitly request full atime updates. This makes it possible
> for the kernel to default to relatime or noatime but still allow userspace
> to override it. For more details about the default system mount options see
> /proc/mounts.
> /end quote
> 
> { Having used a file manager to look at /proc/mounts without comprehension,
> I interpreted the context of "/proc/mounts" to indicate that there would be
> a reference to it elsewhere in https://manpages.debian.org . Nope. }

'cat /proc/mounts' doesn't necessarily improve your comprehension but it
is probably quicker. For a reference, you want proc(5); that takes you to
fstab(5).

> https://manpages.debian.org/stretch/mount/mount.8.en.html makes several
> references to "block special device".
> { "block special device" ??? }

I thought that was well explained. What does the internet say about it?

> Man pages by their nature/purpose assume a certain level of expertise.
> They can be daunting for the uninitiated.

Not a novel observation - but you are not uninitiated or a newcomer. Then
there is always a search engine at hand or the ever-helpful debian-user.

-- 
Brian.

Re: Debian glossary?


On 04/30/2018 07:23 AM, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:

On Monday, April 30, 2018 07:46:01 AM Richard Owlett wrote:

Debian documentation NOT written for hoi polloi.


...


Man pages by their nature/purpose assume a certain level of expertise.
They can be daunting for the uninitiated.

Comments?


True.  Have you read one or more general introductions to Linux (I have none
to suggest at the momen).


Yeah, but not recently.
You just reminded me that I have ~1500 pages of dusty dead trees available.



Man pages are (or were, at least) intended to be more reminders for people
that have at least a basic understanding of the command (or subject) rather
than a tool to learn about it from scratch.


PREACH it brother. I've made similar comments in the past.
The problem on this list is that newbies are often told
"*READ THE MANUAL!*"
as if it were a panacea.




(When I switched from Windows to LInux, I found it very frustrating until I
read several introductions to Linux (of various sorts, including at least
skimming some thick books full of commands), and, I joined a local LUG.)



I've followed a similar path abandoning WinXP for Squeeze.
The local LUG folded before I retired a decade ago. Never had a chance 
to attend any meetings as they were on weekday evenings and I worked 
graveyard shift. The nearest LUG's I know of are ~200 miles away (I live 
in RURAL S.W. Missouri where individual species of livestock outnumber 
people ;)


A partial solution might include "Summer of Documentation" projects 
along side of "Summer of Code".

Re: Debian glossary?

Oh, and PS: it is not very clear to me in what you wrote what you are having 
trouble understanding -- if you are seeking answers, maybe you should ask more 
clearly.

From my peanut gallery observation of this thread, I think one of your 
problems is that the device you are tying to use (to install Linux, iirc?) is 
mounted with the nodev option, which, somebody explained in a followup post, 
is not what you want to use.

Are you familiar with the mstab, fstab, mount, and umount commands?  I think 
it would be helpful if you were...

On Monday, April 30, 2018 08:23:43 AM rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, April 30, 2018 07:46:01 AM Richard Owlett wrote:
> > Debian documentation NOT written for hoi polloi.

Re: Debian glossary?