Re: New laptop: need advice on choice of file system types
On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 08:39:25PM +0200, Pascal Hambourg wrote: If you intend to use guided partitioning on the whole disk, I repeat that LVM is worthless unless you plan to add disks in the future. I'd agree that It's utility is very much diminished by d-i allocating the entire VG with its guided schemes.
Re: New laptop: need advice on choice of file system types
Quoting Pascal Hambourg (2019-04-16 20:39:25) > Le 15/04/2019 à 16:38, Tom Browder a écrit : > > > > I have decided to use the Deb installer and select LVM during > > the clean installation, and accept the FS default (I assume it will be > > ext4, but if not, I will select it). > > If you intend to use guided partitioning on the whole disk, I repeat > that LVM is worthless unless you plan to add disks in the future. It is true that debian-installer currently by default uses up all space, but LVM allows you to adjust space allocation later - if only you chose a partitioning layout with multiple partitions: Log in as root (without being logged in as regular user, so that /home is not actively used), and run something like this: lvreduce --resizefs --size 5G /dev/myhost/home - Jonas -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private signature.asc Description: signature
Re: New laptop: need advice on choice of file system types
Jonathan Dowland composed on 2019-04-16 09:17 (UTC+0100): > On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 01:38:12PM -0400, Felix Miata wrote: >> Both DFSee and IBM >>BM use the last sector on the first track for data storage, including useful >>cataloging data. Even when not having IBM BM installed, its data sector is >>(optionally) used by DFSee, by me, always. > So I gather that you believe DFSee (or some functionality of DFSee that you > rely upon) is incompatible with LVM. >From it's logging I have filesystem/operating system inventory that facilitates clone, backup, restore, move, etc., all available wherever a disk happens to be accessible, without requiring mounting anything or support for any particular filesystem: http://fm.no-ip.com/Tmp/Dfsee/gb250L07.txt http://fm.no-ip.com/Tmp/Dfsee/p5bseL05.txt I can't imagine that Gnu LVM wouldn't escalate complications of the complicated environment that multiboot is. > But I didn't understand this particular > point about the last sector on the first track… is that a region of a physical > drive prior to the first physical partition (assuming an MBR partitioning > scheme)? Typically it's either LBA sector 0x1F or 0x3E. > This alone would not prevent you using LVM, which one would typically > layer on top of traditional partitions. That sector contains information not available elsewhere, originally intended for constructing IBM BM's boot menu and functionality, with OS/2 LVM data later added. It wouldn't prevent using Gnu LVM, but neither could it assist with cataloging of Gnu LVM content. Gnu LVM would be an extra layer only accessible via Linux tools, entirely outside the scope of what works for me now. All this disregards the issue of LVM's physical discontinuity when sector level rescue operations are indicated by the gap between failure and most recent backup. This alone would keep me from considering its addition here. I'm well beyond a point in time when any change in routine could be considered anything but hostile. I strongly resist fixing what ain't broke. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
Re: New laptop: need advice on choice of file system types
Le 15/04/2019 à 16:38, Tom Browder a écrit : I have decided to use the Deb installer and select LVM during the clean installation, and accept the FS default (I assume it will be ext4, but if not, I will select it). If you intend to use guided partitioning on the whole disk, I repeat that LVM is worthless unless you plan to add disks in the future. If you intend to use manual partitioning, there is no default filesystem type.
Re: New laptop: need advice on choice of file system types
On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 01:38:12PM -0400, Felix Miata wrote: Both DFSee and IBM BM use the last sector on the first track for data storage, including useful cataloging data. Even when not having IBM BM installed, its data sector is (optionally) used by DFSee, by me, always. So I gather that you believe DFSee (or some functionality of DFSee that you rely upon) is incompatible with LVM. But I didn't understand this particular point about the last sector on the first track… is that a region of a physical drive prior to the first physical partition (assuming an MBR partitioning scheme)? This alone would not prevent you using LVM, which one would typically layer on top of traditional partitions. -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net ⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.
Re: New laptop: need advice on choice of file system types
Jonathan Dowland composed on 2019-04-15 10:28 (UTC-0400): > On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 05:36:00PM -0400, Felix Miata wrote: >>LVM's extra layer(s) would render my backup/restore system that depends in >>large >>part on cloning useless. > I don't quite understand this, would you care to elaborate? Thanks! My system's inception dates back more than two decades, before I ever installed Linux, before I became conscious of FOSS. I began then using cross-platform DFSee exclusively as my partitioner and IBM Boot Manager manager when its only binaries were DOS, OS/2 & Windows. Later were added Linux, then MacOS. Both DFSee and IBM BM use the last sector on the first track for data storage, including useful cataloging data. Even when not having IBM BM installed, its data sector is (optionally) used by DFSee, by me, always. As DFSee evolved, so did my system, and PC collection. Portions of DFSee's automatic logging double as my inventory system for dozens of multi- multiboot PCs, some with upwards of 30 operating systems. DFSee is a lot of things, but GNU LVM manager from an OS/2 or floppy boot isn't one of them. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
Re: New laptop: need advice on choice of file system types
On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 9:50 AM Tom Browder wrote: > > I have used ext4 for many years while I have been watching zfs and ... Thanks to all who have given me advice on selecting the file system for a new laptop. After considering all suggestions and my use of the laptop, I have decided to use the Deb installer and select LVM during the clean installation, and accept the FS default (I assume it will be ext4, but if not, I will select it). Warm regards, and many thanks, to all. -Tom
Re: New laptop: need advice on choice of file system types
On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 09:50:23AM -0500, Tom Browder wrote: I have used ext4 for many years while I have been watching zfs and btrfs being developed. I am now considering using one or both on at least one partion during my upcoming new Debian installation. What in particular do you find attractive about them? Can anyone recommend either one for a normal (non-developer, non-hobbyiest) user who does backups and values his data and wants reasonable reliability? Ext4 on top of LVM. If you want to play around with new tech then I'd give ZFS on Linux a try, but if you just want your machine to work stick to what you know. I'd avoid BTRFS entirely unless you are an aspiring BTRFS developer. -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net ⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.
Re: New laptop: need advice on choice of file system types
On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 05:36:00PM -0400, Felix Miata wrote: LVM's extra layer(s) would render my backup/restore system that depends in large part on cloning useless. I don't quite understand this, would you care to elaborate? Thanks! -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net ⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.
Re: New laptop: need advice on choice of file system types
On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 4:51 PM Tom Browder wrote: > > I have used ext4 for many years while I have been watching zfs and > btrfs being developed. I am now considering using one or both on at > least one partion during my upcoming new Debian installation. > > Can anyone recommend either one for a normal (non-developer, > non-hobbyiest) user who does backups and values his data and wants > reasonable reliability? I've used btrfs on every machine for a many years, and I'm very happy with it. Run it on my server with various disks, desktop, and laptop. It has saved my data from silent corruption due to bad hardware where ext4 would just return bad data, and it's a breeze to take very quick backups thanks to the snapshot and btrfs-send functions. You just have to learn the new tools. I've replaced disks more or less live on my sever and it works well. I'm not going to play with hacking in a non-native filesystem. ZFS is great if you run FreeBSD, but I run debian main and prefer not to support contrib and non-free.
Re: New laptop: need advice on choice of file system types
On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 11:36 PM Felix Miata wrote: > > Tom Browder composed on 2019-04-12 09:50 (UTC-0500): > > > I have used ext4 for many years while I have been watching zfs and > > btrfs being developed. I am now considering using one or both on at > > least one partion during my upcoming new Debian installation. > > Because of its snapshotting, BTRFS requires considerably more space than older > filesystems, as much as double. A btrfs snapshot takes approximately zero space. Where did you get this idea from?
Re: New laptop: need advice on choice of file system types
Curt wrote: > On 2019-04-12, Thomas D Dial wrote: > > > > ZFS for /home makes sense, especially for anyone not already somewhat > > familiar with ZFS. > > Well, if ZFS is this big sixteen-wheeler that you might crash into the > concrete embankment if you're not careful, what are the benefits that > outweigh or override these risks for the casual Linux enthusiast, when > she can just drive an easy default ext4 automatic vehicle and know > she'll get from here to there safely without worrying about it? ZFS is not for the casual, right now. For example, my father has been using Debian for more than 15 years now, but he's never typed a sudo command without explicit instruction from me. He just wants to use his computer. If I put him on a ZFS system, I would continue to manage it for him the way I manage his ext4 backups right now. The data management concerns that prompted the creation of ZFS are increasingly within the scope of normal hardware purchases. People are buying drives that perform like sports cars and have the capacities of trucks. Unlike a commercial truck or a fancy sports car, ZFS is free. So it can make sense to more people to spend the time necessary to learn how to drive it properly. ZFS unifies disk management, storage allocation, RAID, caching, data safety, snapshotting, compression and deduplication. The simpler your scenario, the less attractive ZFS is. For a single-disk workstation, ZFS offers flexible filesystem allocations (/home and /var can share the disk without either one being limited by a partition size), on-the-fly compression, checksumming of all data, and a live scrub (fsck) method that fixes any issues without taking your system offline. There's also the possibility of snapshotting the system for recovery or backup over the network. Snapshots are extremely fast and can be done automatically via cron. Zsend/zrecv are snapshot-aware. For a 2-4 disk desktop, ZFS does all that plus RAID1, RAID10, or improved RAID5 variants (RAIDZ1 through Z3). For a multi-disk server, add in a separate intent log (write cache), read cache, and possible deduplication. (Dedupe is a giant RAM hog, however, and very difficult to turn off if you haven't prepared properly.) In the near future, ZFS adds native encryption. -dsr-
Re: New laptop: need advice on choice of file system types
On 2019-04-12, Thomas D Dial wrote: > > ZFS for /home makes sense, especially for anyone not already somewhat > familiar with ZFS. Well, if ZFS is this big sixteen-wheeler that you might crash into the concrete embankment if you're not careful, what are the benefits that outweigh or override these risks for the casual Linux enthusiast, when she can just drive an easy default ext4 automatic vehicle and know she'll get from here to there safely without worrying about it? > Regards, > Tom Dial > >> >> -dsr- >
Re: New laptop: need advice on choice of file system types
On Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 18:07 Dan Ritter wrote: > Default User wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 12:43 Dan Ritter wrote: > > > And what about Btrfs? > > I don't currently recommend it in any situation where ZFS is an > option. That comes from 2 years of working with btrfs where > doing normal maintenance ended up destroying data more than > once. It may be better now; I haven't looked back. > > -dsr- > Dan, thanks for the feedback.
Re: New laptop: need advice on choice of file system types
Default User wrote: > On Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 12:43 Dan Ritter wrote: > And what about Btrfs? I don't currently recommend it in any situation where ZFS is an option. That comes from 2 years of working with btrfs where doing normal maintenance ended up destroying data more than once. It may be better now; I haven't looked back. -dsr-
Re: New laptop: need advice on choice of file system types
Tom Browder wrote: > On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 11:43 AM Dan Ritter wrote: > ... > > If you want to experiment, having root on ext4 and /home on ZFS > > is pretty easy to accomplish. > > Dan, I'm not trying to be obtuse, but when you say "experiment," do > you mean taking it for a ride like a new car where one has to learn > new controls in a reliable vehicle, or flying in a local home-built > experimental aircraft? ;-D ZFS is like learning to drive an 18-wheel truck after you have lots of experience in cargo vans: you're certain that it can do all sorts of things very reliably, and if you mess it up, you will feel that it's entirely your own fault for not reading and/or getting good advice first. E.g.: when you set up an ext4fs on a laptop, you trust that mkfs has, if not optimal defaults, certainly reasonable defaults. "zfs create" has reasonable defaults, but the prerequisite "zpool create" does not. Read carefully, and figure out what ashift setting you want before you run anything. -dsr-
Re: New laptop: need advice on choice of file system types
On Fri, 2019-04-12 at 12:43 -0400, Dan Ritter wrote: > Tom Browder wrote: > > I have used ext4 for many years while I have been watching zfs and > > btrfs being developed. I am now considering using one or both on at > > least one partion during my upcoming new Debian installation. > > > > Can anyone recommend either one for a normal (non-developer, > > non-hobbyiest) user who does backups and values his data and wants > > reasonable reliability? > > If you want to experiment, having root on ext4 and /home on ZFS > is pretty easy to accomplish. > > ZFS for root is too difficult to recommend to a casual user > today, but I expect that to change in a version or two. I'll second this recommendation, with two additional comments. First, there is a good set of instructions for installing with root on ZFS at https://github.com/zfsonlinux/zfs/wiki/Debian-Stretch-Root-on-ZFS that, if followed carefully and accurately, is very likely to result in a successful install, including LUKS encryption and root on ZFS. I have been testing one such on a VM for several months and plan shortly install on an old (2011) Apple Macbook. My only deviations were to omit encryption and to use Buster, rather than Stretch, as the target. I think at the time I did it that may have given me a later version of ZFS, and it was clear that Buster would become the new stable version around the time I wanted to use ZFS for real. The install process described there is straightforward, and it includes the steps needed if you want to encrypt the file systemsbut very much hands on. I don't think I would call it difficult as much as requiring careful attention to detail while carrying out a fairly lengthy procedure. It is possible to cut and paste many of the commands, but they must be edited carefully for the target environment. If you have a new and untouched machine, it would be an excellent opportunity to try this without really risking anything but time and maybe frustration. Second, ZFS comes with a significant learning curve and differs a bit from more traditional and common file systems used in Linuxland, including those used with LVM. LVM adds a layer to management; ZFS changes management quite a bit, although generally for the better. The Oracle documentation for their commercial ZFS, though, is available on their web site and generally usable with openzfs, although incompletely because the later features of Oracle ZFS are not available. ZFS for /home makes sense, especially for anyone not already somewhat familiar with ZFS. Regards, Tom Dial > > -dsr-
Re: New laptop: need advice on choice of file system types
Tom Browder composed on 2019-04-12 09:50 (UTC-0500): > I have used ext4 for many years while I have been watching zfs and > btrfs being developed. I am now considering using one or both on at > least one partion during my upcoming new Debian installation. Because of its snapshotting, BTRFS requires considerably more space than older filesystems, as much as double. > Can anyone recommend either one for a normal (non-developer, > non-hobbyiest) user who does backups and values his data and wants > reasonable reliability? IMO it boils down to which you prefer: 1-sticking with what works, familiarity, finding web search answers easily? or 2-replacing paradigms, learning new stuff? It seems rather unusual to see any LVM user not recommend LVM. As a member of the over-60 class, I prefer sticking with what works for me. I only moved from EXT3 to EXT4 about 4 years ago, when I moved from 32bit to 64 bit. LVM's extra layer(s) would render my backup/restore system that depends in large part on cloning useless. -- Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science. Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
Re: New laptop: need advice on choice of file system types
On Fri 12 Apr 2019 at 12:13:09 -0500, Tom Browder wrote: > On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 11:43 AM Dan Ritter wrote: > ... > > If you want to experiment, having root on ext4 and /home on ZFS > > is pretty easy to accomplish. > > Dan, I'm not trying to be obtuse, but when you say "experiment," do > you mean taking it for a ride like a new car where one has to learn > new controls in a reliable vehicle, or flying in a local home-built > experimental aircraft? ;-D That is exactly what he means. -- Brian.
Re: New laptop: need advice on choice of file system types
On Fri, Apr 12, 2019, 12:43 Dan Ritter wrote: > Tom Browder wrote: > > I have used ext4 for many years while I have been watching zfs and > > btrfs being developed. I am now considering using one or both on at > > least one partion during my upcoming new Debian installation. > > > > Can anyone recommend either one for a normal (non-developer, > > non-hobbyiest) user who does backups and values his data and wants > > reasonable reliability? > > If you want to experiment, having root on ext4 and /home on ZFS > is pretty easy to accomplish. > > ZFS for root is too difficult to recommend to a casual user > today, but I expect that to change in a version or two. > > -dsr- > And what about Btrfs?
Re: New laptop: need advice on choice of file system types
On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 11:43 AM Dan Ritter wrote: ... > If you want to experiment, having root on ext4 and /home on ZFS > is pretty easy to accomplish. Dan, I'm not trying to be obtuse, but when you say "experiment," do you mean taking it for a ride like a new car where one has to learn new controls in a reliable vehicle, or flying in a local home-built experimental aircraft? ;-D -Tom
Re: New laptop: need advice on choice of file system types
Tom Browder wrote: > I have used ext4 for many years while I have been watching zfs and > btrfs being developed. I am now considering using one or both on at > least one partion during my upcoming new Debian installation. > > Can anyone recommend either one for a normal (non-developer, > non-hobbyiest) user who does backups and values his data and wants > reasonable reliability? If you want to experiment, having root on ext4 and /home on ZFS is pretty easy to accomplish. ZFS for root is too difficult to recommend to a casual user today, but I expect that to change in a version or two. -dsr-
