Re: OT Filing for free vs Free File, was Re: Simple software for a scanner … LIDE 700F)

[John Hasler]

rhkramer writes:
> In the US, the rich in general have a vested interest in, well, not
> precisely "keeping the entire process bewilderingly complicated", but
> keeping lots of loopholes and such that they can take advantage of to
> reduce their taxes.

Actually much of the complexity comes from attempts at social
engineering followed by attempts to *close* the loopholes opened
thereby.  Look at the bit of insanity called "the alternative minimum
tax", for example.

"Online filing" has killed the tax simplification movement.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: OT Filing for free vs Free File, was Re: Simple software for a scanner … LIDE 700F)

[rhkramer]

On Tuesday, March 10, 2020 05:12:43 AM Curt wrote:
> At any rate, the H & R Blocks et. al. obviously have a vested,
> mercantile interest in keeping the entire process bewilderingly
> complicated, as well as exclusively within the domain of the private
> sector.

In the US, the rich in general have a vested interest in, well, not precisely 
"keeping the entire process bewilderingly complicated", but keeping lots of 
loopholes and such that they can take advantage of to reduce their taxes.

(That is not to say software could not be developed to navigate most of those 
loopholes to accomplish the same reduction in taxes -- well, except to the 
extent that, like in the area of many US laws, I think there are 
contradictions in the rules and regulations, and savvy accountants and such 
pick and choose the ones of those that best serve their clients.)

(I am not positive there are such contradictions, but I do know, to a great 
extent, we don't (or we didn't use to) take old laws off the books -- I know 
that from my experiences on the order of 20 to 50 years ago -- nowadays I 
often see law proposals written as revisions to existing laws which may have 
solved (or partially solved) that problem.)

(Oh, by the way, those experiences 50 years ago were pre-natal, I (try to) 
tell / convince all the women I meet that I am only 29 ;-)

Re: OT Filing for free vs Free File, was Re: Simple software for a scanner … LIDE 700F)

[Curt]

On 2020-03-09, Greg Wooledge  wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 09, 2020 at 09:02:02AM -0500, David Wright wrote:
>> One hopes that you've distinguished between 'filing for "free"' and
>> the actual IRS Free File Program.
>> 
>> https://www.irs.gov/e-file-providers/about-the-free-file-program
>
>   Use Free File Software if your income is $69,000 or less and Free File
>   Fillable Forms if your income is greater than $69,000. 

This is misleading (actually it's just plain false); there is *no*
$69,000 threshold or restriction for using Free File Fillable Forms. 

I'd use it myself (as I don't need software "help" but do need to efile),
if it wasn't for the fact that

 Forms with Known Limitations
 Form 1040, U.S. Individual Income Tax Return:
 ...
 You cannot enter letters where the form is expecting a nine digit Tax
 Identification Number (a Social Security, Individual Tax Identification
 Number, etc.

IOW, the 1040 will not accept NRA (precisely what the IRS requires I
enter for an NRA spouse with no US tax obligation or TIN) in the SSN/TIN
field.

Anyway, I'm only saying for the sake of others who might be looking for a
"truly" free method of efiling their taxes. I used to mail mine by
registered mail when the IRS had an antenna at the US embassy here (but it
closed for budgetary reasons a few years back).

Stop the world, I wanna get off.


-- 
"When we encounter computer output that looks like what we produce by thinking,
we are liable to credit the computer with thought... By that rule of inference,
there would have to be an orchestra somewhere inside your CD player and a farm
in your refrigerator."  --David Halpern

Re: OT Filing for free vs Free File, was Re: Simple software for a scanner … LIDE 700F)

[rhkramer]

On Tuesday, March 10, 2020 05:12:43 AM Curt wrote:
> On 2020-03-10, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > But I didn't know there was a free filing system, Block sure isn't
> > advertiseing it, I think they much prefer to keep on charging me around
> > $300 to put their stamp on it.  so I may investigate it, thanks for the
> > heads up.
> 
> This sums up the situation in the USA IMO:
> 
> https://www.propublica.org/article/filing-taxes-could-be-free-simple-hr-blo
> ck-intuit-lobbying-against-it
> 
>  “Let’s call the so-called Free File Alliance what it really is — a
>  front for tax prep companies who use it as a gateway to sell expensive
>  products no one would even need if we’d just made it easier for people
>  to pay their taxes,” said Warren in a statement to ProPublica. Warren’s
>  office put out a report on the issue last year that repeatedly cited
>  our coverage.
> 
> No member of the hoi polloi in the Gallic regions uses or requires an
> external software company to do their taxes, nor does anyone I know or
> whom I've ever known here pay the least centime to get them done (not
> rubbing shoulders much with any millionaires as part of the 99); the
> French equivalent of the IRS (the "fisc") provides free, official
> software online, pre-filled for the taxpayer. And *they* calculate what
> you owe, if anything.  You just fill in the numbers, if they're not
> already filled in for you.
> 
> At any rate, the H & R Blocks et. al. obviously have a vested,
> mercantile interest in keeping the entire process bewilderingly
> complicated, as well as exclusively within the domain of the private
> sector.

Which is pretty much the same situation for medical insurers in the US.

Re: OT Filing for free vs Free File, was Re: Simple software for a scanner … LIDE 700F)

[Curt]

On 2020-03-10, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> But I didn't know there was a free filing system, Block sure isn't 
> advertiseing it, I think they much prefer to keep on charging me around 
> $300 to put their stamp on it.  so I may investigate it, thanks for the 
> heads up.
>

This sums up the situation in the USA IMO:

https://www.propublica.org/article/filing-taxes-could-be-free-simple-hr-block-intuit-lobbying-against-it

 “Let’s call the so-called Free File Alliance what it really is — a
 front for tax prep companies who use it as a gateway to sell expensive
 products no one would even need if we’d just made it easier for people
 to pay their taxes,” said Warren in a statement to ProPublica. Warren’s
 office put out a report on the issue last year that repeatedly cited
 our coverage.

No member of the hoi polloi in the Gallic regions uses or requires an
external software company to do their taxes, nor does anyone I know or
whom I've ever known here pay the least centime to get them done (not
rubbing shoulders much with any millionaires as part of the 99); the
French equivalent of the IRS (the "fisc") provides free, official
software online, pre-filled for the taxpayer. And *they* calculate what
you owe, if anything.  You just fill in the numbers, if they're not
already filled in for you.

At any rate, the H & R Blocks et. al. obviously have a vested,
mercantile interest in keeping the entire process bewilderingly
complicated, as well as exclusively within the domain of the private
sector.



-- 
"When we encounter computer output that looks like what we produce by thinking,
we are liable to credit the computer with thought... By that rule of inference,
there would have to be an orchestra somewhere inside your CD player and a farm
in your refrigerator."  --David Halpern

Re: OT Filing for free vs Free File, was Re: Simple software for a scanner … LIDE 700F)

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 10 March 2020 00:02:43 David Wright wrote:

> On Mon 09 Mar 2020 at 14:22:12 (-0500), John Hasler wrote:
> > David Wright writes:
> > > Obviously I'm not giving advice on either (which would probably be
> > > illegal)
> >
> > It's never illegal to give *free* advice.
>
> Perhaps not, but some might prefer to keep their heads below the
> parapet when even citizens' lives rank lower than maintaining
> statistics that could affect the economy.

Thats one way of putting it. Opening the 4th  box is another. When my 2nd 
took the kids and left 35 years ago, it was a total surprise when I was 
garnisheed for quite a few thousand. It seems she had been insisting on 
doing the taxes for 6 or 7 years, but she had been cooking the books 
too.  But since I was the wage earner, they came after me. But I had a 
good job, so I survived getting that paid off, and got me another bed 
warmer 30 years ago. So you'll have to excuse me if I don't stick my 
head above the parapet unless its following a suitable argument 
suppressor.

But I didn't know there was a free filing system, Block sure isn't 
advertiseing it, I think they much prefer to keep on charging me around 
$300 to put their stamp on it.  so I may investigate it, thanks for the 
heads up.

> Anyway, here is a recent and 
> an older link for those mystified by my first post in this OT thread:
>
> https://econsultancy.com/us-tax-return-prep-companies-can-no-longer-di
>rect-search-engines-not-to-index-their-free-file-landing-pages/
> https://qz.com/1307700/free-file-many-americans-who-file-taxes-online-
>are-paying-unnecessary-fees/
>
> Because tax submission is not something that's made public, you can
> see that there's a difficulty for just any old company to go
> ambulance-chasing. OTOH where there's a public record (analogous to
> a street accident), it's easier for them to move in:
>
> https://www.aptac-us.org/sam-registration-is-free-be-careful-what-you-
>pay-for/
>
> (I picked that example at random. I've no financial or other interest
> in any company. I'd just like the best for people who read this list.)
>
> Cheers,
> David.


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: OT Filing for free vs Free File, was Re: Simple software for a scanner … LIDE 700F)

[David Wright]

On Mon 09 Mar 2020 at 14:22:12 (-0500), John Hasler wrote:
> David Wright writes:
> > Obviously I'm not giving advice on either (which would probably be
> > illegal)
> 
> It's never illegal to give *free* advice.

Perhaps not, but some might prefer to keep their heads below the
parapet when even citizens' lives rank lower than maintaining
statistics that could affect the economy. Anyway, here is a recent and
an older link for those mystified by my first post in this OT thread:

https://econsultancy.com/us-tax-return-prep-companies-can-no-longer-direct-search-engines-not-to-index-their-free-file-landing-pages/
https://qz.com/1307700/free-file-many-americans-who-file-taxes-online-are-paying-unnecessary-fees/

Because tax submission is not something that's made public, you can
see that there's a difficulty for just any old company to go
ambulance-chasing. OTOH where there's a public record (analogous to
a street accident), it's easier for them to move in:

https://www.aptac-us.org/sam-registration-is-free-be-careful-what-you-pay-for/

(I picked that example at random. I've no financial or other interest
in any company. I'd just like the best for people who read this list.)

Cheers,
David.

Re: OT Filing for free vs Free File, was Re: Simple software for a scanner … LIDE 700F)

[John Hasler]

David Wright writes:
> Obviously I'm not giving advice on either (which would probably be
> illegal)

It's never illegal to give *free* advice.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: OT Filing for free vs Free File, was Re: Simple software for a scanner … LIDE 700F)

[Patrick Bartek]

On Mon, 9 Mar 2020 10:12:59 -0400
Greg Wooledge  wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 09, 2020 at 09:02:02AM -0500, David Wright wrote:
> > One hopes that you've distinguished between 'filing for "free"' and
> > the actual IRS Free File Program.
> > 
> > https://www.irs.gov/e-file-providers/about-the-free-file-program  
> 
>   Use Free File Software if your income is $69,000 or less and Free File
>   Fillable Forms if your income is greater than $69,000. 
> 
>   [...]
> 
>   File Fillable Forms is a FREE forms-based tool enabling you to select your
>   income tax forms, enter your tax information, print and e-file your federal
>   tax return. If you’re not comfortable completing a paper return by hand,
>   without software to guide you, you should consider another method of filing
>   your tax return.
> 
> This is why we can't have nice things.

For years I used TaxAct (www.taxact.com) software, the free version for
federal taxes.  You could file online, but I never did.  Printed a hard
copy and mailed it in.  Why make it easy for the IRS?

In all the years I used TaxAct, I never had the IRS complain or audit
me.  FWIW, I was self-employed, owned a home, had rental property,
etc.  So, my return was quite involved.

B

Re: OT Filing for free vs Free File, was Re: Simple software for a scanner … LIDE 700F)

[David Wright]

On Mon 09 Mar 2020 at 14:50:18 (-), Curt wrote:
> On 2020-03-09, David Wright  wrote:
> > On Fri 06 Mar 2020 at 12:17:23 (-0500), rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> >
> >> Background: I'm trying to do taxes for a few of my friends using H 
> >> Block's 
> >> free online software (they qualify, as all their income is due to wages).
> >
> > One hopes that you've distinguished between 'filing for "free"' and
> > the actual IRS Free File Program.
> >
> > https://www.irs.gov/e-file-providers/about-the-free-file-program
> 
> As usual I'm uncertain what you're driving at here, and what distinction 
> should
> be made, as H Block participates in the IRS Free File Program.
> 
> https://apps.irs.gov/app/freeFile/
> 
>   https://www.hrblock.com/ffa/?otpPartnerID=180=pw_mcm_180_0001
>   Receive a free Federal return if:
>   Your Adjusted Gross Income is $69,000 or less, AND your age is between 17 
> and 51, OR
>   You are eligible for the Earned Income Tax Credit, OR
>   Free for Active Military for Adjusted Gross Income of $69,000 or less
>   Same criteria apply when filing with a foreign address
>   Free state return if you qualify for the federal return
> 
> I must be missing something once again.
> 
> I personally ended up paying 30 bucks to efile because Turbo Tax (into whose
> freefile criteria I fit this year) is unable to put 'NRA' into an SSN 
> numerical
> field (which is what you do when you're married filing separately and your NRA
> spouse neither has nor requires a TIN), whereas another firm across the cyber
> street can and does (but for a fee, as I don't match their criteria for a
> freebie). 

Using TT as an example, the alleged difference is between starting at
https://turbotax.intuit.com/personal-taxes/online/free-edition.jsp
and
https://freefile.intuit.com/

Obviously I'm not giving advice on either (which would probably be
illegal) and don't know anyone's tax status, nor what services they
use. I'm just pointing out that you might find a difference in the
bottom line, which might be worth checking out if you use these
services (or any company participating in the Free File Program).

I'm reminded of applying for an ESTA, where you could start at
https://esta.cbp.dhs.gov/
and pay $14, or pay different amounts using any number of other sites.

Cheers,
David.

Re: OT Filing for free vs Free File, was Re: Simple software for a scanner … LIDE 700F)

[rhkramer]

On Monday, March 09, 2020 10:02:02 AM David Wright wrote:
> On Fri 06 Mar 2020 at 12:17:23 (-0500), rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Background: I'm trying to do taxes for a few of my friends using H
> > Block's free online software (they qualify, as all their income is due
> > to wages).
> 
> One hopes that you've distinguished between 'filing for "free"' and
> the actual IRS Free File Program.
> 
> https://www.irs.gov/e-file-providers/about-the-free-file-program

I'm not sure what you're getting at -- according to the page you cited, there 
is no IRS Free File Program other than those provided by the partners in the 
Free File Alliance which includes H Block and Turbo Tax.

From that page:


Use Free File Software if your income is $69,000 or less and Free File 
Fillable Forms if your income is greater than $69,000.  
IRS Free File is a partnership between the IRS and the Free File Alliance, a 
group of industry-leading private-sector tax preparation companies that have 
agreed to provide free commercial online tax preparation and electronic filing. 
Read more about our partnership. 
We do not endorse any individual Free File Alliance company or retain any 
taxpayer information entered on the Free File site.

I did take note of the Fillable Forms, and that might be the better option 
even if my friends don't make $69,000 per year --scanning the W2s in is 
becoming an aggravation, and entering the data manually (at least in the H 
Block program is even more of an aggravation as they insist on you entering 
all the information on the W2s (things like the address of the employer and 
employee), presumably with the intention of being able to send a "facsimile" 
of the W2 electronically -- I haven't found an option to avoid that.

Re: OT Filing for free vs Free File, was Re: Simple software for a scanner … LIDE 700F)

[Curt]

On 2020-03-09, David Wright  wrote:
> On Fri 06 Mar 2020 at 12:17:23 (-0500), rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Background: I'm trying to do taxes for a few of my friends using H Block's 
>> free online software (they qualify, as all their income is due to wages).
>
> One hopes that you've distinguished between 'filing for "free"' and
> the actual IRS Free File Program.
>
> https://www.irs.gov/e-file-providers/about-the-free-file-program

As usual I'm uncertain what you're driving at here, and what distinction should
be made, as H Block participates in the IRS Free File Program.

https://apps.irs.gov/app/freeFile/

  https://www.hrblock.com/ffa/?otpPartnerID=180=pw_mcm_180_0001
  Receive a free Federal return if:
  Your Adjusted Gross Income is $69,000 or less, AND your age is between 17 and 
51, OR
  You are eligible for the Earned Income Tax Credit, OR
  Free for Active Military for Adjusted Gross Income of $69,000 or less
  Same criteria apply when filing with a foreign address
  Free state return if you qualify for the federal return

I must be missing something once again.

I personally ended up paying 30 bucks to efile because Turbo Tax (into whose
freefile criteria I fit this year) is unable to put 'NRA' into an SSN numerical
field (which is what you do when you're married filing separately and your NRA
spouse neither has nor requires a TIN), whereas another firm across the cyber
street can and does (but for a fee, as I don't match their criteria for a
freebie). 

> Cheers,
> David.
>
>


-- 
"When we encounter computer output that looks like what we produce by thinking,
we are liable to credit the computer with thought... By that rule of inference,
there would have to be an orchestra somewhere inside your CD player and a farm
in your refrigerator."  --David Halpern

Re: OT Filing for free vs Free File, was Re: Simple software for a scanner … LIDE 700F)

[Greg Wooledge]

On Mon, Mar 09, 2020 at 09:02:02AM -0500, David Wright wrote:
> One hopes that you've distinguished between 'filing for "free"' and
> the actual IRS Free File Program.
> 
> https://www.irs.gov/e-file-providers/about-the-free-file-program

  Use Free File Software if your income is $69,000 or less and Free File
  Fillable Forms if your income is greater than $69,000. 

  [...]

  File Fillable Forms is a FREE forms-based tool enabling you to select your
  income tax forms, enter your tax information, print and e-file your federal
  tax return. If you’re not comfortable completing a paper return by hand,
  without software to guide you, you should consider another method of filing
  your tax return.

This is why we can't have nice things.