Re: Question about MultiArch and dependencies
Le 30/12/2014 06:04, Gary Dale a écrit : On 29/12/14 11:59 PM, The Wanderer wrote: On 12/29/2014 at 11:48 PM, Gary Dale wrote: On 29/12/14 04:27 PM, Raphaël Halimi wrote: Le 29/12/2014 21:52, Gary Dale a écrit : Apparently not. Wow, very useful answer. Thanks a lot ! Given that most packages are trivially small compared with disk space and memory these days, especially on gaming computers, the question itself is almost pointless. Just pull in the dependency and forget about it. It's far from pointless if you're wanting to try to _understand_ what's going on and why, which is an eminently reasonable goal and one which should be encouraged rather than treated dismissively. I read it as a complaint, not a question. He didn't ask why didn't it, just shouldn't it. He didn't say it created any problems with his desktop environment, just frustration that he needed two xterms. 1/ Remember that not all people speak English as their native language. 2/ Although it was indeed a question and not a complaint, I'm trying to build a desktop for non-computer-literate people, used to simple layouts like stock MacOSX, so yeah, having two terminals in the menu _is_ a problem for the goal I'm trying to reach. 3/ Following your logic, I just should have forgotten about the problem (because it _is_ a problem in mate-terminal's packaging, as Sven pointed out) and live with it... I wonder where Debian would be today if everyone treated minor bugs like you do. Indeed, I could just dpkg-divert the desktop file to hide it on the machines I install (that's probably what I'll do if the fix doesn't reach Jessie before the release), but as The Wanderer said, understanding why apt reacts like that was much more interesting, and reporting this kind of minor bugs in packaging, in addition to saving me a little bit of work on future installations, allows to fix the problem not only for Debian, but for all of its downstreams as well (Ubuntu, Mint, Crunchbang, etc etc). Just admit that you didn't really understand the question, and gave a useless and almost rude answer. These things happen, it's no big deal. -- Raphaël Halimi signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Question about MultiArch and dependencies
On 30/12/14 06:45 AM, Raphaël Halimi wrote: Le 30/12/2014 06:04, Gary Dale a écrit : On 29/12/14 11:59 PM, The Wanderer wrote: On 12/29/2014 at 11:48 PM, Gary Dale wrote: On 29/12/14 04:27 PM, Raphaël Halimi wrote: Le 29/12/2014 21:52, Gary Dale a écrit : Apparently not. Wow, very useful answer. Thanks a lot ! Given that most packages are trivially small compared with disk space and memory these days, especially on gaming computers, the question itself is almost pointless. Just pull in the dependency and forget about it. It's far from pointless if you're wanting to try to _understand_ what's going on and why, which is an eminently reasonable goal and one which should be encouraged rather than treated dismissively. I read it as a complaint, not a question. He didn't ask why didn't it, just shouldn't it. He didn't say it created any problems with his desktop environment, just frustration that he needed two xterms. 1/ Remember that not all people speak English as their native language. 2/ Although it was indeed a question and not a complaint, I'm trying to build a desktop for non-computer-literate people, used to simple layouts like stock MacOSX, so yeah, having two terminals in the menu _is_ a problem for the goal I'm trying to reach. 3/ Following your logic, I just should have forgotten about the problem (because it _is_ a problem in mate-terminal's packaging, as Sven pointed out) and live with it... I wonder where Debian would be today if everyone treated minor bugs like you do. Indeed, I could just dpkg-divert the desktop file to hide it on the machines I install (that's probably what I'll do if the fix doesn't reach Jessie before the release), but as The Wanderer said, understanding why apt reacts like that was much more interesting, and reporting this kind of minor bugs in packaging, in addition to saving me a little bit of work on future installations, allows to fix the problem not only for Debian, but for all of its downstreams as well (Ubuntu, Mint, Crunchbang, etc etc). Just admit that you didn't really understand the question, and gave a useless and almost rude answer. These things happen, it's no big deal. Then again, knowing how to ask a question is also important. It would seem that your real concern is having two terminals on the menu. However, did you actually test that it would happen? Would installing the multiarch version give you two xterms or would the last one installed overwrite the first? Could you simply remove the second menu item if one did in fact show up? Did you try removing the mate version of xterm before installing the one steam prefers? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54a2d198.6000...@torfree.net
Re: Question about MultiArch and dependencies
Le 30/12/2014 17:23, Gary Dale a écrit : Then again, knowing how to ask a question is also important. It would Then again, not everybody is born in an english-speaking country. seem that your real concern is having two terminals on the menu. It is _one_ of my concerns. The other one being apt not resolving these dependencies the way I expected it to. Unlike you, Sven understood the question immediately and unlike you, he gave an appropriate answer. I filed a bug report against mate-terminal. Problem solved. However, did you actually test that it would happen? Would installing the multiarch version give you two xterms or would the last one installed overwrite the first? Could you simply remove the second menu item if one did in fact show up? Did you try removing the mate version of xterm before installing the one steam prefers? What does it have to do with my initial question about dependencies resolving ? Stop trying to justify yourself and just admit you were gratuitously rude to someone you mistook for a newbie. -- Raphaël Halimi signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Question about MultiArch and dependencies
On Tuesday 30 December 2014 23:47:18 Raphaël Halimi wrote: Stop trying to justify yourself Pot and kettle??? Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201412310003.38454.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: Question about MultiArch and dependencies
On 30/12/14 06:47 PM, Raphaël Halimi wrote: Le 30/12/2014 17:23, Gary Dale a écrit : Then again, knowing how to ask a question is also important. It would Then again, not everybody is born in an english-speaking country. seem that your real concern is having two terminals on the menu. It is _one_ of my concerns. The other one being apt not resolving these dependencies the way I expected it to. Unlike you, Sven understood the question immediately and unlike you, he gave an appropriate answer. I filed a bug report against mate-terminal. Problem solved. However, did you actually test that it would happen? Would installing the multiarch version give you two xterms or would the last one installed overwrite the first? Could you simply remove the second menu item if one did in fact show up? Did you try removing the mate version of xterm before installing the one steam prefers? What does it have to do with my initial question about dependencies resolving ? Stop trying to justify yourself and just admit you were gratuitously rude to someone you mistook for a newbie. There is an old saying that it is better to light one candle than to curse the darkness. If you want to report a bug, report it. If you want a solution to a problem, ask for help. I'd like to find out what happens if you try the solutions that I have suggested. I've got multiple terminals on my setup and it's never bothered me. I use the one I like most. That's a nice thing about Linux. But you apparently feel differently. That's also your choice. Has your bug report been addressed yet? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54a388b7.5070...@torfree.net
Re: Question about MultiArch and dependencies
On 12/31/2014 12:25 AM, Gary Dale wrote: On 30/12/14 06:47 PM, Raphaël Halimi wrote: Le 30/12/2014 17:23, Gary Dale a écrit : Then again, knowing how to ask a question is also important. It would Then again, not everybody is born in an english-speaking country. seem that your real concern is having two terminals on the menu. It is _one_ of my concerns. The other one being apt not resolving these dependencies the way I expected it to. Unlike you, Sven understood the question immediately and unlike you, he gave an appropriate answer. I filed a bug report against mate-terminal. Problem solved. However, did you actually test that it would happen? Would installing the multiarch version give you two xterms or would the last one installed overwrite the first? Could you simply remove the second menu item if one did in fact show up? Did you try removing the mate version of xterm before installing the one steam prefers? What does it have to do with my initial question about dependencies resolving ? Stop trying to justify yourself and just admit you were gratuitously rude to someone you mistook for a newbie. There is an old saying that it is better to light one candle than to curse the darkness. If you want to report a bug, report it. If you want a solution to a problem, ask for help. I'd like to find out what happens if you try the solutions that I have suggested. I've got multiple terminals on my setup and it's never bothered me. I use the one I like most. That's a nice thing about Linux. But you apparently feel differently. That's also your choice. Has your bug report been addressed yet? I thought that was a feature, where you can just download all the things for free. You all made me look. I have installed: Gnome Term 1155k XFCE Term 1559k Xterm 1750k For what I pay the packagers, I can live with it. I think the points Dale raised were not disrespectful in any way. Maybe multiarch pulled in a 32bit xterm? That is quite possible. You would need one ya know, running 32bit apps one of them, like steam, would probably demand it. Just checked, steam does. But you already knew that. :) Ric -- My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say: There are two Great Sins in the world... ..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity. Only the former may be overcome. R.I.P. Dad. Linux user# 44256 Linux _is_ user-friendly. It is not ignorant-friendly or idiot-friendly. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54a397eb.3040...@gmail.com
Re: Question about MultiArch and dependencies
On 29/12/14 03:35 PM, Raphaël Halimi wrote: Hi, On an amd64 Sid system, steam (i386 only) depends on xterm | x-terminal-emulator. I already have mate-terminal installed, which provides x-terminal-emulator, but both apt and aptitude don't care and want to install xterm along with steam. Shouldn't apt be happy with mate-terminal:amd64 and install steam without pulling xterm in ? Apparently not. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54a1bf0c.10...@torfree.net
Re: Question about MultiArch and dependencies
Le 29/12/2014 21:52, Gary Dale a écrit : On 29/12/14 03:35 PM, Raphaël Halimi wrote: Hi, On an amd64 Sid system, steam (i386 only) depends on xterm | x-terminal-emulator. I already have mate-terminal installed, which provides x-terminal-emulator, but both apt and aptitude don't care and want to install xterm along with steam. Shouldn't apt be happy with mate-terminal:amd64 and install steam without pulling xterm in ? Apparently not. Wow, very useful answer. Thanks a lot ! -- Raphaël Halimi signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Question about MultiArch and dependencies
On 2014-12-29 21:35 +0100, Raphaël Halimi wrote: On an amd64 Sid system, steam (i386 only) depends on xterm | x-terminal-emulator. I already have mate-terminal installed, which provides x-terminal-emulator, but both apt and aptitude don't care and want to install xterm along with steam. Shouldn't apt be happy with mate-terminal:amd64 and install steam without pulling xterm in ? No, because (unlike xterm) mate-terminal is not marked as Multi-Arch: foreign and thus cannot fulfill dependencies of packages from a different architecture[1]. Cheers, Sven 1. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MultiarchSpec#Binary_package_control_fields -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87h9wedtyi@turtle.gmx.de
Re: Question about MultiArch and dependencies
Sven Joachim wrote: Raphaël Halimi wrote: On an amd64 Sid system, steam (i386 only) depends on xterm | x-terminal-emulator. I already have mate-terminal installed, which provides x-terminal-emulator, but both apt and aptitude don't care and want to install xterm along with steam. Shouldn't apt be happy with mate-terminal:amd64 and install steam without pulling xterm in ? No, because (unlike xterm) mate-terminal is not marked as Multi-Arch: foreign and thus cannot fulfill dependencies of packages from a different architecture[1]. Interesting. I am learning about multi-arch. Does this mean that mate-terminal should be marked as foreign and it was simply something that was missed there? Or is not being marked foreign an intentional choice here so that (in the above amd64 + i386 example) it doesn't pull in an entire i386 desktop? Bob signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Question about MultiArch and dependencies
Le 29/12/2014 22:31, Sven Joachim a écrit : On 2014-12-29 21:35 +0100, Raphaël Halimi wrote: On an amd64 Sid system, steam (i386 only) depends on xterm | x-terminal-emulator. I already have mate-terminal installed, which provides x-terminal-emulator, but both apt and aptitude don't care and want to install xterm along with steam. Shouldn't apt be happy with mate-terminal:amd64 and install steam without pulling xterm in ? No, because (unlike xterm) mate-terminal is not marked as Multi-Arch: foreign and thus cannot fulfill dependencies of packages from a different architecture[1]. Cheers, Sven 1. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MultiarchSpec#Binary_package_control_fields Thanks, that was the information I was looking for. So if I understand correctly, the bug relies in mate-terminal's packaging ? Is there a way to check a control file's Multi-Arch field without downloading the source package ? apt-cache show doesn't display it. -- Raphaël Halimi signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Question about MultiArch and dependencies
On 2014-12-29 22:45 +0100, Raphaël Halimi wrote: Le 29/12/2014 22:31, Sven Joachim a écrit : On 2014-12-29 21:35 +0100, Raphaël Halimi wrote: On an amd64 Sid system, steam (i386 only) depends on xterm | x-terminal-emulator. I already have mate-terminal installed, which provides x-terminal-emulator, but both apt and aptitude don't care and want to install xterm along with steam. Shouldn't apt be happy with mate-terminal:amd64 and install steam without pulling xterm in ? No, because (unlike xterm) mate-terminal is not marked as Multi-Arch: foreign and thus cannot fulfill dependencies of packages from a different architecture[1]. Thanks, that was the information I was looking for. So if I understand correctly, the bug relies in mate-terminal's packaging ? Yes, mate-terminal could probably safely be marked as Multi-Arch: foreign. Feel free to file a bug for that. Is there a way to check a control file's Multi-Arch field without downloading the source package ? apt-cache show doesn't display it. If the Multi-Arch field is present, apt-cache displays it. Cheers, Sven -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/877fxadsdk@turtle.gmx.de
Re: Question about MultiArch and dependencies
Le 29/12/2014 23:05, Sven Joachim a écrit : Thanks, that was the information I was looking for. So if I understand correctly, the bug relies in mate-terminal's packaging ? Yes, mate-terminal could probably safely be marked as Multi-Arch: foreign. Feel free to file a bug for that. That's what I intended, but I had a doubt about which package, hence the original post. Is there a way to check a control file's Multi-Arch field without downloading the source package ? apt-cache show doesn't display it. If the Multi-Arch field is present, apt-cache displays it. Right, before I asked I tried with a couple of packages, but in my haste I didn't see it with xterm, as it was below the description. Regards, -- Raphaël Halimi signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Question about MultiArch and dependencies
On 29/12/14 04:27 PM, Raphaël Halimi wrote: Le 29/12/2014 21:52, Gary Dale a écrit : On 29/12/14 03:35 PM, Raphaël Halimi wrote: Hi, On an amd64 Sid system, steam (i386 only) depends on xterm | x-terminal-emulator. I already have mate-terminal installed, which provides x-terminal-emulator, but both apt and aptitude don't care and want to install xterm along with steam. Shouldn't apt be happy with mate-terminal:amd64 and install steam without pulling xterm in ? Apparently not. Wow, very useful answer. Thanks a lot ! Given that most packages are trivially small compared with disk space and memory these days, especially on gaming computers, the question itself is almost pointless. Just pull in the dependency and forget about it. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54a22ea3.9040...@torfree.net
Re: Question about MultiArch and dependencies
On 12/29/2014 at 11:48 PM, Gary Dale wrote: On 29/12/14 04:27 PM, Raphaël Halimi wrote: Le 29/12/2014 21:52, Gary Dale a écrit : Apparently not. Wow, very useful answer. Thanks a lot ! Given that most packages are trivially small compared with disk space and memory these days, especially on gaming computers, the question itself is almost pointless. Just pull in the dependency and forget about it. It's far from pointless if you're wanting to try to _understand_ what's going on and why, which is an eminently reasonable goal and one which should be encouraged rather than treated dismissively. -- The Wanderer The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Question about MultiArch and dependencies
On 29/12/14 11:59 PM, The Wanderer wrote: On 12/29/2014 at 11:48 PM, Gary Dale wrote: On 29/12/14 04:27 PM, Raphaël Halimi wrote: Le 29/12/2014 21:52, Gary Dale a écrit : Apparently not. Wow, very useful answer. Thanks a lot ! Given that most packages are trivially small compared with disk space and memory these days, especially on gaming computers, the question itself is almost pointless. Just pull in the dependency and forget about it. It's far from pointless if you're wanting to try to _understand_ what's going on and why, which is an eminently reasonable goal and one which should be encouraged rather than treated dismissively. I read it as a complaint, not a question. He didn't ask why didn't it, just shouldn't it. He didn't say it created any problems with his desktop environment, just frustration that he needed two xterms. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54a23273.4030...@torfree.net
