Re: slink to potato ssh failed
On Mon, Jul 10, 2000 at 18:50, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi! I recently upgraded my slink box to potato with apt. Everything works well but the new ssh: neptun:/home/papt# dpkg --configure ssh Setting up ssh (1.2.3-5) ... ^ I think this was fixed around -7, and I believe -8 is current. Get the current version and install it. Luck, Pann -- geek by nature, Linux by choice L I N U X .~. The Choice /V\ http://www.ourmanpann.com/linux/ of a GNU /( )\ Generation ^^-^^
Re: (slink+0.75)-potato login problem
Adrian Thiele wrote: Peter Allen wrote: (everything looked fine on boot), I then tried to login: When I try I can type my username, it waits three seconds and asks for my username again. (No password asked for and no login) When you ran the config after the install did you keep your PAM config file or replace it with the new one? Sorry about the delay, I managed to lose these messages for a few days and have only just found them My config looked alright, (I did a lot of checking around) I think I kept the original but am not totally sure Anyway I have done a lot of mucking about with stuff, and have some new info: I somehow managed to delete my old ldconfig config (I don't even know where this is stored so I don't know how...) and I booted up linux, and the login worked. I looked around a bit then tried startx. It couldn't find a load of x librarys, so after checking they were there (they were) I did an ldconfig. Then startx worked fine, x ran as normal. Unfortunatly I then managed to logout of root (Doh) and so tried logging back in again, and it failed. I still had a user account open so I tried su, which gave me a seg fault. I unfortunatly didn't have core dumps enabled, (and I can't remember how to enable them (?? ulimit -a 1 ??)) I will do some more digging around now... TIA Peter Allen
Re: Slink or Potato
Timothy C. Phan wrote: Hi, I'm a user who are way behind the debian upgrade. I've recently mirror the slink and plan to upgrade from my debian 1.3.1 to slink. However, I've just noticed the potato was recently frozen. I'd like to solicite you all comment on whether I should upgrade to slink or potato? Secondly, what are the differences between the twos? Lastly, I will rebuild the kernel and I also noticed that there were kernel 2.0.xx and 2.2.xx. Which should I use? In order to upgrade to potato at the end of the day, the easiest way is a new installation. Bah, no that's not an option. :-) It's easier to upgrade from bo - slink and then from slink - potato. Regards, Joey -- Never trust an operating system you don't have source for!
Re: Slink or Potato
Hi All, It seems to me that potato would support the latest jdk1.2.2 better than slink and I'm also need the use of jdk1.2.2 as well. In this case, I'll go for potato from hamm. Well, I just need to know one more thing, does potato support IPMASQ the same as the previous versions (hamm or slink). Thank for all your replies. --- tcp.
Re: slink to potato?
On Sat, Jan 15, 2000 at 01:01:51PM -0800, Michael Perry wrote: Hi all- I just got dsl here so have a system I would like to take from slink to potato using the apt-get install dist-upgrade. Has anyone done this recently? Any issues? I did the upgrade last friday on my laptop. no real problems, except that dpkg eats 13 MB Ram after installing a package. My laptop has only 24 MB so the upgrade took more than 4 hours, after the packages had been downloaded. Wouter -- Linux duckman 2.2.14 #1 Wed Jan 5 14:45:16 CET 2000 i586 unknown 11:35am up 10 days, 51 min, 1 user, load average: 0.75, 0.61, 0.50
Re: slink to potato?
On Sat, Jan 15, 2000 at 01:56:51PM -0800, Michael Perry wrote: I just got dsl here so have a system I would like to take from slink to potato using the apt-get install dist-upgrade. Has anyone done this recently? Any issues? Also would just like to say thanks to everyone that develops for Debian and to the mailing list for all the great advice! The commands are: apt-get update //this gets the newest Packages files apt-get dist-upgrade //this does the upgrade - note no install word //install is used with individual packages as in //apt-get install foo I did this recently on the machine I'm using right now. I *wish* I'd had DSL - I did it over a 33.6 dial-up. The only issues I had were: 1) a broken debconf that has since been fixed 2) sometimes after having the connection drop when I reconnected I wound up at a mirror site that wasn't up to date. I solved that by changing my /etc/sources.list to point at the primary Debian FTP site. It was slower but it worked. 3) ncurses was a PITA. The upgrade had the symlinks completely hosed. The fix was to purge the ncurses packages in reverse numerical order, then reinstall them in numerical order. I really don't know if that was just an artifact of something I did or if the package was actually to blame, but it was actually not too bad to fix. Those are the only things that stuck out in my mind. If it sounds like I'm complaining about them I'm not - a lot of things I've had to go through with Win95 made going from Slink to Potato seem like an absolute breeze! Sure there were a few bobbles, but really they weren't that bad. And the performance gains in WindowMaker/XWindows were *well* worth the download. -- Mike Werner KA8YSD | Where do you want to go today? ICQ# 12934898 | As far from Redmond as possible! '91 GS500E| Morgantown WV | Only dead fish go with the flow.
Re: Slink + some Potato = What?
Hi, On Thu, Nov 11, 1999 at 11:04:11PM -0600, David J. Kanter was heard to state: I have Slink, but have spent some time over the last few days updating essentially all the required base and standard packages from Potato. So, when I look at packages for Slink or for Potato, which one am I supposed to choose? For instance, the October Gnome. Should I avoid the Slink version? This is exactly what I have done. I pointed apt at the unstable branch, downloaded glibc2.1, and then have downloaded additional things from there. Not everything works perfectly every time - I haven't got gdm working since I installed it earlier today, but generally most things work fine. I'm working on a slow migration path to potato, so I'm slowly upgrading stuff to potato as I want it. Unless you plan on re-installing from scratch again once potato become stable, I'd recomend sticking to potato and hoping that nothing breaks (too badly). It also has the advantage that you get to update stuff as the maintainer updates them. I doubt they will be doing much to October Gnome for slink (seeing it's now November!), but the Gnome stuff in Potato does seem to be updated occasionally, with new stuff added frequently. Of course, this is all IMHO, but it's what I'm doing. Cheers, damon -- Damon Muller ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) / It's not a sense of humor. * Criminologist / It's a sense of irony * Webmeister / disguised as one. * Linux Geek / - Bruce Sterling
Re: slink and potato
On Thu, 11 Nov 1999, Randy M.Kaplan wrote: rkapla Can someone provide a definition of slink? of potato? slink = debian v2.1 potato = debian 2.2 is that what u wanted ?? nate [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ]-- Vice President Network Operations http://www.firetrail.com/ Firetrail Internet Services Limited http://www.aphroland.org/ Everett, WA 425-348-7336http://www.linuxpowered.net/ Powered By:http://comedy.aphroland.org/ Debian 2.1 Linux 2.0.36 SMPhttp://yahoo.aphroland.org/ -[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ]-- 8:36am up 83 days, 20:07, 1 user, load average: 1.61, 1.56, 1.55
Re: slink and potato
*- On 11 Nov, Randy M.Kaplan wrote about slink and potato Can someone provide a definition of slink? of potato? Slink is the current stable version of Debian 2.1r3. The code name slink comes from the Slinky character in the movie Toy Story. Potato is the current unstable version of Debian 2.2. The code name comes from the Mr. Potato Head character in the movie Toy Story. The source of these code names started from one of the previous Debian Project Leaders, Bruce Perens(http://www.perens.com/), who works(worked?) for Pixar Animation Studios(http://www.pixar.com/), the force behind the Toy Story movies. -- Brian Servis -- Mechanical Engineering | Never criticize anybody until you Purdue University | have walked a mile in their shoes, [EMAIL PROTECTED] | because by that time you will be a http://www.ecn.purdue.edu/~servis | mile away and have their shoes.
Re: slink and potato
slink: to move in a quiet, furtive manner; to sneak potato: a plant, emSolarnum Tuberosum/em, native to South America and widely cultivated for its starchy, edible tubers. Randy M.Kaplan wrote: Can someone provide a definition of slink? of potato? Thanks, Randy Kaplan -- Unsubscribe? mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] /dev/null
Re: slink and potato
On Mon, 18 Oct 1999, Dave Baker wrote: On Sun, 17 Oct 1999, Todd Suess wrote: I was brave, I just did apt-get dist-upgrade and waiting about 10 hours for it to download everything and upgrade. Have had very little trouble with it. -Todd ps. for this to work, you of course have to have apt installed and a entry in sources.list pointing to an unstable archive. Having just spent some of the weekend fighting with this, I wonder if I can throw out a few Qs. 1) did you have gnome installed? I had to uninstall practically all of gnome by hand before apt-get would continue due to dependencies. Nope, I did not have gnome installed. 2) did you have emacs installed? same deal as above. Also some conflicts with bind and dnsutils stepping on each other during the upgrade (had to uninstall manually, then reinstall after it was done). Yes, emacs was installed, didn't really have any problems with it tho. 3) when you add unstable sources in sources.list, do you first remove the stable ones? I wonder if this could have caused some of my probs. No, my sources.list still has stable and unstable entries, mainly because I was too lazy to remove them, but once I upgraded since it goes by version numbers everything I install now comes from unstable, so I guess I could take the stable portions out, doesn't really matter. 4) at what point does your kernel get upgraded to 2.2.x (or 2.3.x)? Mine is sitting at 2.0.36 still and I'm in the process of using kernel-package to go to 2.2.12 - I had expected this to be done through the dist-upgrade but it didn't ... I recompiled my kernel right from 2.0.36 to 2.2.12-3, but I did it after my system was almost completely potato. No problems compiling, and I have compiles several more times since with no trouble. 5) I had to restart the apt-get dist-upgrade five or six times (or more) because it kept being killed by packages that didn't install correctly. Interesting, I didn't have a problem with this, but if I did have a package that didn't want to install correctly (such as dependancy overwrite problems, etc) I just made a note of it and used dpkg -i --force overwrite on those. My debian install was a fairly fresh 2.1r2 with gnome and kde updates through apt. Since I had a pretty awful time fighting through it, perhaps it can be of use to help the old stable - new stable upgrade process go smoother for everyone else ... -dave -- | oOOooO / --|oOobodoO/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] --| ooOoOo / | II / The wise man tells you where you have fallen | II / and where you may fall - Invaluable secrets. -- Unsubscribe? mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] /dev/null
Re: slink and potato
I was brave, I just did apt-get dist-upgrade and waiting about 10 hours for it to download everything and upgrade. Have had very little trouble with it. -Todd ps. for this to work, you of course have to have apt installed and a entry in sources.list pointing to an unstable archive. At 04:33 AM 10/18/1999 +0530, T.V.Gnanasekaran wrote: Often you will see Slink = Stable, Potato = Unstable, but I have been using potato for a while now will little or no problems, and it works a lot better in many ways, at least for me. I am running slink but I want to upgrade to potato. How do I go about? What is the best way? -gnana
Re: slink and potato
Slink is the current stable debian release version, which is 2.1 Potato is the current unstable release version, which is due to be released before the end of the year, god willing. :) Often you will see Slink = Stable, Potato = Unstable, but I have been using potato for a while now will little or no problems, and it works a lot better in many ways, at least for me. Then how come at ftp.debian.org there's a directory named slink and also a directory named stable, and a directory named potato and also a directory named unstable? -Ben Wong, Keeper of the Squish, Breaker of Sailboats, and Aggravator of Cysts A closed mouth gathers no feet. -Lee Silva ___ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.
Re: slink and potato
Those are directory aliases, they go to the same place. If you cd to slink you will get to stable if you cd to potato you will get to unstable. regards, Todd Then how come at ftp.debian.org there's a directory named slink and also a directory named stable, and a directory named potato and also a directory named unstable?
Re: slink and potato
On Sun, Oct 17, 1999 at 10:00:51PM -0500, Ben Wong wrote: Then how come at ftp.debian.org there's a directory named slink and also a directory named stable, and a directory named potato and also a directory named unstable? Ever heard of a symlink? unstable - potato stable - slink I know that Windows doesn't have such things (cryin' shame), but they're very handy. Look it up with $ man ln -- ++ | Eric G. Milleregm2@jps.net | | GnuPG public key: http://www.jps.net/egm2/gpg.asc | ++
Re: slink and potato
On Sun, 17 Oct 1999, Ben Wong wrote: snip I have been using potato for a while now will little or no problems, and it works a lot better in many ways, at least for me. snip what is better about potato? ( i'm still new to debian ; so just wondering if i should go slink - potato ) thanks you - ravi.
Re: slink and potato
On Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 02:17:27PM +, RAVIKANT K RAO wrote: what is better about potato? ( i'm still new to debian ; so just wondering if i should go slink - potato ) Potato is newer stuff. The trade-off is that it is less stable - hasn't been tested as thoroughly. Potato is almost ready for release. It all depends on what you're comfortable with. The months before and after a freeze can be pretty rocky, so I might recommend waiting until it goes beta at least (since you're new to debian). (unstable - frozen - beta - stable) unstable = under development frozen= no new packages, bug fixes only beta = final testing stable= well, stable :) On the other hand, I guarantee that you'll learn more and faster if you upgrade :) Either way, have fun! -Michael -- Michael Stenner Office Phone: 919-660-2513 Duke University, Dept. of Physics [EMAIL PROTECTED] Box 90305, Durham N.C. 27708-0305
Re: slink and potato
On Sun, 17 Oct 1999, Todd Suess wrote: I was brave, I just did apt-get dist-upgrade and waiting about 10 hours for it to download everything and upgrade. Have had very little trouble with it. -Todd ps. for this to work, you of course have to have apt installed and a entry in sources.list pointing to an unstable archive. Having just spent some of the weekend fighting with this, I wonder if I can throw out a few Qs. 1) did you have gnome installed? I had to uninstall practically all of gnome by hand before apt-get would continue due to dependencies. 2) did you have emacs installed? same deal as above. Also some conflicts with bind and dnsutils stepping on each other during the upgrade (had to uninstall manually, then reinstall after it was done). 3) when you add unstable sources in sources.list, do you first remove the stable ones? I wonder if this could have caused some of my probs. 4) at what point does your kernel get upgraded to 2.2.x (or 2.3.x)? Mine is sitting at 2.0.36 still and I'm in the process of using kernel-package to go to 2.2.12 - I had expected this to be done through the dist-upgrade but it didn't ... 5) I had to restart the apt-get dist-upgrade five or six times (or more) because it kept being killed by packages that didn't install correctly. My debian install was a fairly fresh 2.1r2 with gnome and kde updates through apt. Since I had a pretty awful time fighting through it, perhaps it can be of use to help the old stable - new stable upgrade process go smoother for everyone else ... -dave -- | oOOooO / --|oOobodoO/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] --| ooOoOo / | II / The wise man tells you where you have fallen | II / and where you may fall - Invaluable secrets.
Re: slink and potato
On Sun, 17 Oct 1999, Ben Wong wrote: : Slink is the current stable debian release version, which is 2.1 : Potato is the current unstable release version, which is due : to be released before the end of the year, god willing. :) : : Often you will see Slink = Stable, Potato = Unstable, but : I have been using potato for a while now will little or no problems, : and it works a lot better in many ways, at least for me. : : Then how come at ftp.debian.org there's a directory named slink and also : a directory named stable, and a directory named potato and also a : directory : named unstable? stable and unstable aren't directories, they're symbolic links. -- Nathan Norman MidcoNet 410 South Phillips Avenue Sioux Falls, SD mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.midco.net finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] for PGP Key: (0xA33B86E9)
Re: slink and potato
On Sun, Oct 17, 1999 at 10:00:51PM -0500, Ben Wong wrote: Then how come at ftp.debian.org there's a directory named slink and also a directory named stable, and a directory named potato and also a directory named unstable? They're aliases. stable always points to the current stable distribution, and unstable to the current unstable distribution. That way when potato is stabilized, no one has to edit their /etc/apt/sources.list -- Joe Block [EMAIL PROTECTED] CREOL System Administrator Social graces are the packet headers of everyday life.
Re: slink and potato
Slink is the current stable debian release version, which is 2.1 Potato is the current unstable release version, which is due to be released before the end of the year, god willing. :) Often you will see Slink = Stable, Potato = Unstable, but I have been using potato for a while now will little or no problems, and it works a lot better in many ways, at least for me. Regards, Todd At 07:07 PM 10/17/1999 -0500, Ben Wong wrote: Wha are slink and potato? -Ben Wong, Keeper of the Squish, Breaker of Sailboats, and Aggravator of Cysts A closed mouth gathers no feet. -Lee Silva ___ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. -- Unsubscribe? mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] /dev/null
Re: slink and potato
Often you will see Slink = Stable, Potato = Unstable, but I have been using potato for a while now will little or no problems, and it works a lot better in many ways, at least for me. I am running slink but I want to upgrade to potato. How do I go about? What is the best way? -gnana
Re: Slink to Potato
Damon Muller ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: If I want to check out something that is only in Potato, I go and use apt-get to grab and install it. If it uses glibc2.1, it'll get that, and any other libs that it depends on. Yup. Being `binary compatible', does this mean that all the apps that I don't update will still work (with maybe some `rare exceptions')? Yes. I have a mostly-slink-but-partly-potato box and it's just fine. Or do I need to do a dist-upgrade, and upgrade all of my apps to make sure they will still work? I'd recommend against this, due to a few broken packages that are in the current potato. -- Greg Wooledge| Distributed.NET http://www.distributed.net/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] | because a CPU is a terrible thing to waste. http://www.kellnet.com/wooledge/ |
Re: Slink to Potato
Hi Greg Wooledge; unless Mutt is confused, you wrote: Damon Muller ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: If I want to check out something that is only in Potato, I go and use apt-get to grab and install it. If it uses glibc2.1, it'll get that, and any other libs that it depends on. Yup. Being `binary compatible', does this mean that all the apps that I don't update will still work (with maybe some `rare exceptions')? Yes. I have a mostly-slink-but-partly-potato box and it's just fine. Or do I need to do a dist-upgrade, and upgrade all of my apps to make sure they will still work? I'd recommend against this, due to a few broken packages that are in the current potato. -- Greg Wooledge| Distributed.NET http://www.distributed.net/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] | because a CPU is a terrible thing to waste. http://www.kellnet.com/wooledge/ | And is it possible to upgrade only some packages from _potato_ to a slink system? I'm asking this because when I install (by ignoring libc6 =2.1 dependancy) imagemagick or xfig from potato on a slink system (along with whatever they depend on- the dpkg is installing them cleanly), all I get is segfaults galore. That indicates that whatever is compiled against glibc2.1 will _not_ work on glibc2.0 based system. Or what am I doing wrong? I have also heard that slink bash will fail with glibc2.1 (segfault); so how do I update libc6 to potato (using dpkg line, _not_ apt) without breaking the system? damir
Re: Slink to Potato
Damon Muller [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Because of the developments such as glibc2.1, perl, and probably numerous other things, you can't take something out of Potato and put it on a Slink system and expect it to work. It's an all-or-nothing arrangement. They may both be `GNU/Linux', but they are essential incompatible. This is simply not true. As I have mentioned in several other posts recently, I've been incrementally upgrading my slink system with packages from potato, using no particular care, simply depending on dselect/apt to keep me safe. I _have_ upgraded to glibc2.1 and the new perl, but these upgrades were quite painless, and had no obvious negative repercussions -- the great majority of stuff on my system is still slink (from a japanese cdrom set, BTW, which had all sorts of wacky-ass versions of things...) and it all works together quite happily. In case you hadn't notice, dselect/apt/c do their job quite well. I suggest you take a deep breath and give them a try (instead of getting all freaked out by what you read on mailing lists and crying doom). The beauty of debian is that the package maintainers do the worrying and the awful kluges (and they've done a wonderul job), meaning *you* don't have to! Cheers, -Miles -- Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra. Suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath. At night the ice weasels come. --Nietzsche
Re: Slink to Potato
Hi Miles Bader; unless Mutt is confused, you wrote: Damon Muller [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Because of the developments such as glibc2.1, perl, and probably numerous other things, you can't take something out of Potato and put it on a Slink system and expect it to work. It's an all-or-nothing arrangement. They may both be `GNU/Linux', but they are essential incompatible. This is simply not true. As I have mentioned in several other posts recently, I've been incrementally upgrading my slink system with packages from potato, using no particular care, simply depending on dselect/apt to keep me safe. I _have_ upgraded to glibc2.1 and the new perl, but these upgrades were quite painless, and had no obvious negative repercussions -- the great majority of stuff on my system is still slink (from a japanese cdrom set, BTW, which had all sorts of wacky-ass versions of things...) and it all works together quite happily. In case you hadn't notice, dselect/apt/c do their job quite well. I suggest you take a deep breath and give them a try (instead of getting all freaked out by what you read on mailing lists and crying doom). The beauty of debian is that the package maintainers do the worrying and the awful kluges (and they've done a wonderul job), meaning *you* don't have to! Cheers, -Miles I have been in this thread way too long :-), but ... I have to agree with Damon's post. And I have been told that glibc2.1 and glibc2.0 are binary compatible. Why, then, do we have _all_ the packages in the potato _dependant_ on libc6 _=2.1_ and not just libc6 period. And why do I get Navigator 4.7 giving me all sorts of errors when I do ignore-depends on libc6 =2.1 if I have libc6 2.0 installed (the one from netgod- navigator,that is)? You have mixed enviroment, apparently. But, if you didn't have glibc2.1, _none_ of the potato packages would have installed in the first place, because of the missing dependancies (if you used dpkg). And if upgrading libc6 2.0 to 2.1 is going to be anything like upgrading from libc5 to libc6 I shudder at the idea of sitting in front of the screen waiting to crash it to the point of no return. Can anyone of the Debian management find some time in the near future to write up a definitive migration guide (ie. what needs to be updated as a very minimum, in which order and such- like the one we had for libc5-libc6 thing)? And I agree with Damon also in the point that I'm _extremly_ grateful to Debian management and developers for their work, and my posts should not be taken as a criticism, but practical concerns from the end-user standpoint. I have no Windows on my machine, and if I crap out this box trying to upgrade, I can't even post for help once the machine is down... Occasional instability or insecurity is not as much of a concern as that. Thanks, damir
Re: Slink to Potato
Damir J. Naden [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I have been told that glibc2.1 and glibc2.0 are binary compatible. For most purposes, they are. Of course this is software, and software has bugs, so there are almost certainly odd cases where things don't work; but they appear to be quite the exception. Why, then, do we have _all_ the packages in the potato _dependant_ on libc6 _=2.1_ and not just libc6 period. I do not know. I assume it's probably because they use features that are in 2.1 but not 2.0 (note that `binary compatible' doesn't mean that they present *exactly* the same interface, merely that 2.1 should present *at least* the same interface as 2.0). And why do I get Navigator 4.7 giving me all sorts of errors when I do ignore-depends on libc6 =2.1 if I have libc6 2.0 installed (the one from netgod- navigator,that is)? I do not know; you'd have to post the errors. You have mixed enviroment, apparently. But, if you didn't have glibc2.1, _none_ of the potato packages would have installed in the first place, because of the missing dependancies (if you used dpkg). This is not true; much depends on glibc = 2.1, but quite a bit doesn't care at all (note that I didn't upgrade to glibc2.1 immediately, only when I wanted to check out a recent version of enlightenment). And if upgrading libc6 2.0 to 2.1 is going to be anything like upgrading from libc5 to libc6 I shudder at the idea of sitting in front of the screen waiting to crash it to the point of no return. That was supposed to be the point of my message -- In my experience, upgrading from glibc 2.0 to 2.1 is *trivial*, and needs no special consideration, migration guides, hand-holding sessions, or support groups. Stop whining and just do it. -Miles p.s. The `stop whining' bit was for dramatic effect only. -- Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra. Suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath. At night the ice weasels come. --Nietzsche
Re: Slink to Potato
That was supposed to be the point of my message -- In my experience, upgrading from glibc 2.0 to 2.1 is *trivial*, and needs no special consideration, migration guides, hand-holding sessions, or support groups. Stop whining and just do it. -Miles p.s. The `stop whining' bit was for dramatic effect only. I've got to agree with Miles here. Once I stopped shaking in fear of a possible instability, I started doing it one step at a time and I haven't had any serious problems. The few problems I did have generally had solutions in the mailing list archives and were easily dealt with. The important thing is: take small steps and test them out before going on. -- Mark
Re: Slink to Potato
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- On Tue, 5 Oct 1999, Damir J. Naden wrote: I have been in this thread way too long :-), but ... I have to agree with Damon's post. And I have been told that glibc2.1 and glibc2.0 are binary compatible. Glibc 2.1 is binary compatible with glibc 2.0. That means that any glibc 2.0 app should work with 2.1 (unless the developer was stupid). It doesn't mean that any 2.1 apps will work with 2.0, though. Socrates is a man and All men are mortal. Therefore, Socrates is mortal, but not All men are Socrates ;) But, if you didn't have glibc2.1, _none_ of the potato packages would have installed in the first place, because of the missing dependancies (if you used dpkg). Some few could be satisfied, if the package were to be altered to depend on perl instead of perl5. Or the slink perl package were altered to provide perl5 as well as perl. There are a few others that don't depend on libc6 at all, but they aren't all that common. And if upgrading libc6 2.0 to 2.1 is going to be anything like upgrading from libc5 to libc6 I shudder at the idea of sitting in front of the screen waiting to crash it to the point of no return. Can anyone of the Debian management find some time in the near future to write up a definitive migration guide (ie. what needs to be updated as a very minimum, in which order and such- like the one we had for libc5-libc6 thing)? Although i'm not completely sure, i believe the upgrade is nowhere near as problematic as the libc5-libc6 upgrade. Unless you upgrade at the same time a major bug shows itself ;) - -- finger for PGP public key. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: 2.6.3ia Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBN/rNIb7M/9WKZLW5AQHcAAP6Arw3nwRa2LjLRYrnn3eJPmliE61m9pE7 T+NuCX7tF/GNpYJRf+UPYGu7g65vp1iDyJXbY7ASeXa8TtKJqLUee6pFqzYWFLaU Wbx1t9tFDkUBk+U++hmOV8AVX4QKCCGBTkjtOalCKianCj5ShZA1DhQ565V7v0g2 H56s1uHugMQ= =9y4o -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Slink to Potato
On Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 03:38:05AM +0100, Mark Brown was heard to state: The stable GNOME packages are actually produced by the Debian maintainers - they're just distributed from the GNOME site. So, why would they not be introduced into slink-proposed-updates? The only things in proposed-updates should be minimal fixes for very important (eg, security) bugs - things that will go into a new point release of slink. New upstream releases don't generally make those criteria, and the GNOME one certainly doesn't. I've managed to stay out of this up until now, but this is something I have been concerned about myself. This last statement is really the crux of the matter - should stable remain untouched except for security updates? I think when the new debian comes out, I'll really have to be called Debian 3.0. As far as I'm aware, the traditional naming convention for software projects means that a whole number release signifies a release which is incompatible with the previous release. Because of the developments such as glibc2.1, perl, and probably numerous other things, you can't take something out of Potato and put it on a Slink system and expect it to work. It's an all-or-nothing arrangement. They may both be `GNU/Linux', but they are essential incompatible. The problem for most of us trapped in slink-land is that, while the linux and open source community is streaking ahead in leaps and bounds, with advances in software coming so quickly that it's hard for anyone to keep up, we are merely marking time. Let me make clear that I have nothing against the Debain model. I know that it's completely volunteer, and that a bunch of volunteers who do the packages, organised via a series of high-traffic mailing lists, is as close to anarchy as you can really get. I fully appreciate the dedication that the developers have, and know that they wont release anything until they believe they have it right. For a production system, I'd much rather have an slightly rusty debain install than a brand new RedHat one. Maybe the problem with the debian model is that everything has to work together so well before it is released, and there is so much that has to work. The number of debian packages seems to grow by a dozen or so every time Debian Weekly News comes out, and I suspect by the time Potato becomes stable, it'll need at least 3 CDs for Main. The problem is that, unlike with RPMs, very few people outside the debian project package DEBs of their software - why would they when they may as well be offical for the same effort. Yes I know you can use Alien, but really, that's a hack (if quite a good one at times), not a solution. So if you want any new software to easily add, you need to wait for a new debian release. Luckily for us, there are a few people who package and release stuff for Slink, such as netgod, and the GNOME and KDE maintainers. In my experience, all of this stuff has worked quite well, and I have no complaints. But to keep up to date with anything other than what these people maintain, you're on your own. Now, I've been using linux for a few years now, so I'm not scared to try a `./configure; make; make install', but then you loose the benefits of dpkg/apt looking after your system. You also run the very real risk of not having the libraries you need, or not in the right places, and if you want to update something `significant', like the GIMP, you're probably going to have to be installing lots of libraries yourself, and ending up getting into all sorts of confusion. I've looked after a few RedHat machines, and although I'll take Debian any day, they did have one advantage. Their base system, like Debian, was only really updated for security fixes and the kernel differences, between major releases. But at least RH users have the possibility of looking in the Conrtib archives (their contrib means `user contributed', which makes more sense to me than contrib meaning `depends on something in non-free', but maybe I'm just thick...), and finding nice new releases of their favourite packaged. Sure, it might not work, it might hose their system, it might even install a backdoor and have you owned in half an hour, but it's an informed choice. Debian stable, on the other hand, works perfect, every time, for a long time - but it doesn't change for a long time either. Something of a doble-edged sword, I guess. I'm not necessarily suggesting we go the RH way, and throw quality control to the wind, but it's an interesting difference that highlights some issues. Where does this leave me? I like trying new things, and I'm as up-to-date as netgod and gnome want me to be. I'm also pretty adventurous, and I'd like to try some of the newer stuff. I compile a bit of stuff myself (Lyx was one of the apps mentioned in the original message in this thread, and I've got that working fine by compiling it myself). On the other hand, I'm not a programmer - I'm a user. I can fix some things, apply patches
Re: Slink to Potato
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I've been slowly upgrading my packages from slink to potato, and frankly, have never had a single problem. How are you doing this? Do you just go get the packages and 'dpkg -i' them or do you use apt? There are a bunch of things I want to upgrade on my system but I assumed that all of the potato packages would have dependencies to library versions I don't have and that updating my libraries would break slink packages that I do have. No, I just do it the normal way, with dselect. I put all of my packages on `hold' (with the `=' key, which seems to mark everything in a section if you do it on the section header), added the unstable distributions to my sources.list (I use the apt dselect backend) file, and then whenever I want to upgrade something, I just use dselect, which tells me of any repercussions that might follow. One of the first things I upgraded was glibc, to version 2.1, which may have made subsequent changes easier (that change, BTW, was also absolutely painless). It might be nice if there were a `put everything on hold' command, or even multiple `named holds' (so you could put things on hold for different reasons simultaneously, and more easily manipulate sets of holds). -Miles -- Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra. Suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath. At night the ice weasels come. --Nietzsche
Re: Slink to Potato
Brad [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There's a howto somewhere on the Debian site saying which packages have to be updated to use a 2.2 kernel with Slink. Do you have any idea where this would be? I've been searching the debian site for this kind of info with no luck. I did try a 2.2.10 kernel, and everything except PPP seems to work alright; now I just have to find out what's the deal with PPP (it seems to work for everything *except* tcp, but no tcp is a bit of a drag!). Thanks, -Miles -- Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra. Suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath. At night the ice weasels come. --Nietzsche
Re: Slink to Potato
Hi Miles Bader; unless Mutt is confused, you wrote: Brad [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There's a howto somewhere on the Debian site saying which packages have to be updated to use a 2.2 kernel with Slink. Do you have any idea where this would be? I've been searching the debian site for this kind of info with no luck. I did try a 2.2.10 kernel, and everything except PPP seems to work alright; now I just have to find out what's the deal with PPP (it seems to work for everything *except* tcp, but no tcp is a bit of a drag!). Thanks, -Miles http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/running-kernel-2.2 HTH, damir
Re: Slink to Potato
Hi Mark Brown; unless Mutt is confused, you wrote: Damir, are you sure mutt is using vim? If you have nvi installed and haven't adjusted the alternatives vi will default to that and if you normally use a shell alias to select your vi mutt won't pick that up. Yup, I'm positive. I am a control freak and I usualy do not have multiples of anything. That is why I use dpkg command line for anything above the base system, and keep track of what is installed. It should work now, I think it was an error in my syntaxes of the .gvimrc file. That idea is intented to be closer to unstable than stable - at this point, there would probably be as much hassle updating to the in-between release as there is updating to Potato. Not that there's much hassle with Potato right now. Sorry, but I tend to think there is a bit more work involved in getting libc2.1 installed than it is to get wmaker 0.61.0 (as an example). Say, if I feel bored over the weekend; what packages and in which order do I need to update to get the system to potato- with dpkg command line _not_ the apt tool? I'd guess libc6 2.1, bash, ldso, libreadline2g and so on and so forth. (any volunteeres for a quick how-to? :-) ) Now, I want new wmaker (assuming there is a package): I do dpkg --i wmaker* and two or three other small packages, and I'm off to the races. Since it is a bug-fix release, I don't think anything will break. If it does, I pull out old packages, do dpkg --i thingy, and I'm safe. An hour work, at the very worst. The stable GNOME packages are actually produced by the Debian maintainers - they're just distributed from the GNOME site. So, why would they not be introduced into slink-proposed-updates? To explain it a bit more clearly: glibc 2.0 is binary compatible with glibc 2.1. If programs break when linked against 2.1 then that is a bug in the program (typically trying to use internal features). With all due respect, from my standpoint it doesn't matter where the bug is. The fact the program may not run does matter. damir
Re: Slink to Potato
Hi Brad; unless Mutt is confused, you wrote: Hmmm... exactly 80-column lines, more or less. 72 or 76 is much better though, it leaves room for replies. Ooops, sorry, I don't know how that happened; my vimrc files specs 76 columns, maybe I need separate command in muttrc? I'm not sure what you mean here... There is a pretty good bit on the website, if you look in the right places. And if you're referring to the Perl changes, that was discussed and announced on -devel, which all developers are supposed to read. IIRC there's also some in the developer's section of the website. Yes, I stand corrected. There is a bit of info if you look under release info. My fault... I'd think they shouldn't put stuff on the webpage until they've made the decision, on debian-devel or debian-policy. Considering the changes are so big (with egcs and libc2.1 and 2.2 kernel) that it justifies the more flexible approach (not waiting until _all_ the details are settled). And if upstream guys do their thing, we may be looking into 2.4 kernel pretty soon- does that mean another Debian stable release will be one step back ( when potato become stable it'll rely on 2.2 kernel). Even though the debian releases and kernel are not directly linked (I'm running 2.2.10 on slink), it will give a wrong perception to the average user (like me). Still, there's the risk of major breakage. What do you count as a non-essential package? Gnome, which has 10,000 libraries and such that need to be properly managed? Remember that stable isn't just a collection of packages that work, everything works together as a unified system. If you start upgrading parts of that, you may end up breaking another part. Maybe we should have another directory then for up-to-date-stable, which all could download from at their own risk (which we do anyway, not like anyone is guaranteeing anything in the first place). People who really want rock solid system ( I like mine medium solid :-)) wouldn't upgrade anyways. I upgrade something (say Enlightenment or wmaker), and if I don't like it, I pull out old packages and reinstall old stuff. Thanks to Debian way of installing, I have never ever damaged my system by doing this (until I did something terribly stupid and deserved it). At worst, I have lost a bit of my time ( and if I don't have the time in the first place, I don't play with upgrades). And people can use real stable for fresh install or reinstall. Besides having to deal with possible breakage, what is it that makes stable better for you than unstable? Or is the possible breakage reason enough (it is a good enough reason)? I am no computer wizard. And when I read about all the development currently going on in Linux world, people are forgetting that semi-commercial applications ( like StarOffice and netscape) still rely on libc6 and not new libc. I happen to need those apps. But, spoiled and shallow as I am, I like my wmaker to be at par with upstream, or my gimp or my tetex. None of those are close to it in stable. Marcelo (wmaker maintaner) has been kind enough to post his slink-based binaries for wmaker 0.60.0, but that is not the case with 0.61.0 any longer ( since he needs his time to be devoted to unstable branch, along his regular life, I presume). My point is, I don't care if I d/l new, say, gimp, and it craps out on me, and I have to go back to stable. I do care if I attempt to upgrade to new libc6 and it fails, I get useless box that I have to reinstall from scratch. Or if my system can't run netscape or StarOffice. Absolutely! All apt does is download the packages and call dpkg to install them. For the next generation of Debian package managment, dpkg will be just another front-end to the underlying library, but rest assured it will still exist. It's way too useful to lose! glad to hear that. Thank you. Personally, i've never used the --compile flag, since whenever i download the source i have need to modify something ;) That is what I meant. Glad I'm not the only one. No problem. Again, thanks for a good discussion points. damir
Re: Slink to Potato
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- On Sat, 2 Oct 1999, Damir J. Naden wrote: Hi Brad; unless Mutt is confused, you wrote: Hmmm... exactly 80-column lines, more or less. 72 or 76 is much better though, it leaves room for replies. Ooops, sorry, I don't know how that happened; my vimrc files specs 76 columns, maybe I need separate command in muttrc? i was partially wrong too. You have 78 column lines, not 80 ;) As you can see the line above, with the two characters inserted for quoting the ',' hits the very right margin of an 80-column-width display. I'd think they shouldn't put stuff on the webpage until they've made the decision, on debian-devel or debian-policy. Considering the changes are so big (with egcs and libc2.1 and 2.2 kernel) that it justifies the more flexible approach (not waiting until _all_ the details are settled). There is something on the webpage saying Potato will contain all those. http://www.debian.org/releases/unstable/ Of course, this is subject to change if there's an upgrade in one of those packages. And if upstream guys do their thing, we may be looking into 2.4 kernel pretty soon- does that mean another Debian stable release will be one step back ( when potato become stable it'll rely on 2.2 kernel). Depends if potato is frozen before they get 2.4 out. Vague rumors tell of a November target for a potato freeze, and a January release for 2.4... Of course, being rumors, these could easily be wrong. Even though the debian releases and kernel are not directly linked (I'm running 2.2.10 on slink), it will give a wrong perception to the average user (like me). How so? Besides that some people think RedHat uses kernel version 6.1, i don't follow... Or are you referring to the kernel being out of date, makeing users think Debian is always far behind? Remember that stable isn't just a collection of packages that work, everything works together as a unified system. If you start upgrading parts of that, you may end up breaking another part. Maybe we should have another directory then for up-to-date-stable, which all could download from at their own risk (which we do anyway, not like anyone is guaranteeing anything in the first place). This has been proposed, according to other posts in this thread. IIRC, the plan was to allow an unstable package into semi-stable only after X length of time without bug reports, etc. Netgod also supposedly keeps some unstable packages compiled for slink, and i hear the Gnome people make debs for stable of their latest releases. So this may not be too difficult to impliment (not that i'm volunteering ;) All in all, this seems like a pretty good idea. People who really want rock solid system ( I like mine medium solid :-)) wouldn't upgrade anyways. I upgrade something (say Enlightenment or wmaker), and if I don't like it, I pull out old packages and reinstall old stuff. Thanks to Debian way of installing, I have never ever damaged my system by doing this (until I did something terribly stupid and deserved it). Now that makes me curious what you did to break it! Once i broke libc6-dev by deleting some important header, had to uninstall and reinstall the package. And once i replaced a file needed by the dynamic library linker, killing all dynamically linked progs--bash, cp, ls, nothing IMPORTANT. Almost though i had to reinstall, but i managed to salvage the system (i forget if with a boot disk or just running ldconfig). Besides having to deal with possible breakage, what is it that makes stable better for you than unstable? Or is the possible breakage reason enough (it is a good enough reason)? I am no computer wizard. And when I read about all the development currently going on in Linux world, people are forgetting that semi-commercial applications ( like StarOffice and netscape) still rely on libc6 and not new libc. libc6 is the same as glibc 2. StarOffice used to depend on glibc 2.0 (as opposed to the 2.1 in slink), but they fixed that AFAIK. Netscape has as much trouble with 2.1 as with 2.0 AFAIK. The Netscape in potato is linked against the libc5 compatability libraries now. I happen to need those apps. But, spoiled and shallow as I am, I like my wmaker to be at par with upstream, or my gimp or my tetex. None of those are close to it in stable. Agreed. Personally, i'm willing to risk the breakage i get following unstable. You're not, and many others aren't, which is why semi-stable [not-quite-so-unstable i'd call it, but that's a bit long] might be a good idea. - -- finger for PGP public key. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: 2.6.3ia Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBN/b93b7M/9WKZLW5AQEb7QP9FpZmkzz1UQDFyIHOSfYcfmGqEA3icNO2 gg/sPAcikiFdznXHMqnFYBFaGaFE5qe7+t64XzI/J8o0kWrE6W3rbEUv2EJNIBDh bmZDl1LBDJZXf7AIwi8eo8FgfYafZDTvHD6V+5hQEYcSQ+FUF7BlZnMcxAwndvkH /1NODE68d2s= =rvo7 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Slink to Potato
On Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 01:55:22AM -0500, Brad wrote: On Sat, 2 Oct 1999, Damir J. Naden wrote: Hi Brad; unless Mutt is confused, you wrote: Hmmm... exactly 80-column lines, more or less. 72 or 76 is much better though, it leaves room for replies. Ooops, sorry, I don't know how that happened; my vimrc files specs 76 columns, maybe I need separate command in muttrc? i was partially wrong too. You have 78 column lines, not 80 ;) As you can see the line above, with the two characters inserted for quoting the ',' hits the very right margin of an 80-column-width display. Damir, are you sure mutt is using vim? If you have nvi installed and haven't adjusted the alternatives vi will default to that and if you normally use a shell alias to select your vi mutt won't pick that up. And if upstream guys do their thing, we may be looking into 2.4 kernel pretty soon- does that mean another Debian stable release will be one step back ( when potato become stable it'll rely on 2.2 kernel). Depends if potato is frozen before they get 2.4 out. Vague rumors tell of a November target for a potato freeze, and a January release for 2.4... Of course, being rumors, these could easily be wrong. I would hope that we would late at least a month before releasing with a new kernel - assuming it worked well to start off with. Waiting for 2.4 and testing it would probably delay the release of Potato even more than it is already. Maybe we should have another directory then for up-to-date-stable, which all could download from at their own risk (which we do anyway, not like anyone is guaranteeing anything in the first place). This has been proposed, according to other posts in this thread. IIRC, the plan was to allow an unstable package into semi-stable only after X length of time without bug reports, etc. That idea is intented to be closer to unstable than stable - at this point, there would probably be as much hassle updating to the in-between release as there is updating to Potato. Not that there's much hassle with Potato right now. Netgod also supposedly keeps some unstable packages compiled for slink, and i hear the Gnome people make debs for stable of their latest releases. The stable GNOME packages are actually produced by the Debian maintainers - they're just distributed from the GNOME site. I am no computer wizard. And when I read about all the development currently going on in Linux world, people are forgetting that semi-commercial applications ( like StarOffice and netscape) still rely on libc6 and not new libc. libc6 is the same as glibc 2. StarOffice used to depend on glibc 2.0 (as opposed to the 2.1 in slink), but they fixed that AFAIK. Netscape has as To explain it a bit more clearly: glibc 2.0 is binary compatible with glibc 2.1. If programs break when linked against 2.1 then that is a bug in the program (typically trying to use internal features). -- Mark Brown mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Trying to avoid grumpiness) http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~broonie/ EUFShttp://www.eusa.ed.ac.uk/societies/filmsoc/ pgp1cRCUfIpxo.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Slink to Potato
Based on some advice in this thread, I decided to try upgrading a few non-critical packages to see how it would go. After getting a few things upgraded without a hitch, I decided to give samba a try. It broke. After downgrading samba (also easy) so it would keep working, I looked for the problem in the mailing list archives and found that a kernel upgrade should fix it. My real question is: To upgrade from slink to potato, should I go to a 2.2 kernel under slink first? I know those issues are documented on the Debian site. If so, what kernel version is most likely to prevent further problems like this? -- Mark Zimmerman
Re: Slink to Potato
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hmmm... exactly 80-column lines, more or less. 72 or 76 is much better though, it leaves room for replies. On Fri, 1 Oct 1999, Damir J. Naden wrote: Hi Brad; unless Mutt is confused, you wrote: ---stuff snipped here-- Depending on the particular package, recompiling for slink can be as simple as apt-get --compile source packagename (with a new enough version of apt, of course). The versioned Perl dependancies and such can be fixed by editing debian/control in the downloaded source. Sorry for jumping in here, but I'd like to add my two cents in. I am using Debian for 4 years now, or close to that, but these must be the most confusing 6 months I remember if you are a Debian user. Could Debian management (do they read this group at all?) decide what is the direction they will be taking _and_ post that on the official Debian web-site? Isn't that what the site is for? I'm not sure what you mean here... There is a pretty good bit on the website, if you look in the right places. And if you're referring to the Perl changes, that was discussed and announced on -devel, which all developers are supposed to read. IIRC there's also some in the developer's section of the website. Not that i can comment much anyway, since i'm not a developer ;) Instead of going thru the archives of the debian-devel and such? I'd think they shouldn't put stuff on the webpage until they've made the decision, on debian-devel or debian-policy. I agree with the original author of this thread, if slink is current stable release, why not update the non-essential packages every, say, major upstream release? Leave the libc6 and other essential packages where they are now... Still, there's the risk of major breakage. What do you count as a non-essential package? Gnome, which has 10,000 libraries and such that need to be properly managed? Remember that stable isn't just a collection of packages that work, everything works together as a unified system. If you start upgrading parts of that, you may end up breaking another part. I am, and I think other non-computer-oriented users, would be happy to take the risk of my window manager not working quite right, knowing we can back out of it without breaking the whole system. Part of the great draw of stable is that it is almost guaranteed 100% stable. If you put stable on your critical server, you'll know that everything will work together with no troubles. Change this, and what's the point of stable at all? Besides having to deal with possible breakage, what is it that makes stable better for you than unstable? Or is the possible breakage reason enough (it is a good enough reason)? Now, to the apt thing. I am in a great minority here, but is it still possible to fetch the packages (say in potato) and command-line-install them (remember dpkg --install my.pkg.deb?). Absolutely! All apt does is download the packages and call dpkg to install them. For the next generation of Debian package managment, dpkg will be just another front-end to the underlying library, but rest assured it will still exist. It's way too useful to lose! I have recently tried to update my XFree to 3.3.4 from ftp.netgod.x using this method and it wouldn't go. ??? Why am I asking about apt? Because I prefer control dpkg is giving me; I always disliked Windows way of Updating files now thingy leaving me clueless on what is being updated. And I prefer to know that upfront rather than reading the changelogs after the fact. read more on this below. That's a perfectly fine viewpoint. And if I have to get sources and apt-get source them, I am better off just compiling them myself and again, use dpkg -i ( after getting debianized sources, that is). apt-get source, without the --compile option, will download the .orig.tar.gz, .diff.gz, and .dsc files and do dpkg-source -x on it. Or you can specify the --download-only flag and run dpkg-source yourself. Personally, i've never used the --compile flag, since whenever i download the source i have need to modify something ;) It's not standard, but check out ftp.netgod.net/x. Many slinkified apps there. They _used_ to have only slink stuff. New Navigator packages (just tried them after downloading them and doing my dpkg thingy) are apparently compiled against libc2.1, xlib6g 3.3.4 or higher and libstdc++2.9-libc2.1! i wouldn't know, since i went to potato when slink was still frozen ;) If I did apt-get, would the system go off and updated my libc6 to satisfy Navigator 4.7 ( is Naviagotr tarball from Netscape really done up against libc2.1 or is that internal to Debian?) without me realizing this and just answered (foolishly) yes to upgrade? Nope, not unless you foolishly stuck an unstable line in your apt sources.list. If you only have stable lines, it'll just complain that it can't find the proper version of the libc6 package (or whatever). I realize there will be lots of answers
Re: Slink to Potato
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- On Fri, 1 Oct 1999 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My real question is: To upgrade from slink to potato, should I go to a 2.2 kernel under slink first? I know those issues are documented on the Debian site. If so, what kernel version is most likely to prevent further problems like this? AFAIK, this one's up to you. Potato should work with a 2.0.x kernel, although a few packages (samba, as you discovered) will break. As for the version, i'd go with the latest stable (2.2.12, unless they released 2.2.13 just today). There's even a brand new Debian package so you won't have to compile your own if you don't want. - -- finger for PGP public key. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: 2.6.3ia Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBN/WwBb7M/9WKZLW5AQE3/AP/XHNgiRrq/KvnEhCj8crJzrftx9Xf+q2V oYp2ezUWF1246Gp6qouU+Se9ItcJPjzKiIIBnaLonwBv5N+/7h2Pm6W7Qszir7CU lUdlMMssTkHcEit2b+Qk3hP9i1mLyIpLnsORI3Cta82XjLdLWGBqRBjXXMx7Y02z 7yQB98tuTqY= =eFkg -END PGP SIGNATURE-
RE: Slink to Potato
As for the version, i'd go with the latest stable (2.2.12, unless they released 2.2.13 just today). There's even a brand new Debian package so you won't have to compile your own if you don't want. Where would I be able to find that package? -- Bart Szyszka [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ:4982727 B Grafyx http://www.bgrafyx.com L.J.R. Engineering http://www.ljreng.com PHP Interest Group http://www.gigabee.com/pig/
RE: Slink to Potato
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
On Sat, 2 Oct 1999, B. Szyszka wrote:
As for the version, i'd go with the latest stable (2.2.12, unless they
released 2.2.13 just today). There's even a brand new Debian package so
you won't have to compile your own if you don't want.
Where would I be able to find that package?
/debian/dists/unstable/main/binary-${ARCH}/base on your favorite Debian
mirror. Note that $ARCH should be replaced by your arch. Some arch's may
not have the kernel images available, but i386 and powerpc at the least
do.
- --
finger for PGP public key.
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Re: Slink to Potato
On Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 09:17:07AM -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wouldn't it be nice is this information was collated at one location so that people could build on what's already been done and not have to try everything new every time. That's what open source is about--sharing. What I am proposing is to help collate the information, do the research so that people coming after me don't have to keep up with the various lists. This is a no-brainer. It needs to be done and it needs to be done now. Great. Go for it. You might like to get in touch with Joey Hess (who does Debian Weekly News), since he's also collating much of the same information for inclusion in DWN. A look through past issues would probably turn up most of the important existing issues. It's not that we're out to make life hard for you - if it's not being done it's probably more to do with nobody having the right combination of time, enthusiasm and skill to do it than anything else. In a voluenteer orgainzation there are very few people with who the buck *definately* stops, and most of them seem to be very busy already. actually imagine this being a more serious problem these days with things like GNOME having so many librarie to get right. Those are a nightmare. That's why it's important for somebody who's already got things working with Slink to document it and share with others so that everybody doesn't have to reinvent the wheel. There is a Slink version of the last GNOME release - have a look on the GNOME web site - and AFAIK the plan is to spin a similar set of packages for the upcoming GNOME release. I think there's a link from the Slink section of the web site. [Perhaps stable is OK?] What's extreme is that hundreds of Debian users have stable upgraded systems and nobody has bothered to document it and post a How-To. There is documentation for those upgrades I'm using on the web site (actually, I'm not sure about the GNOME stuff but it's not precisely hidden). There's also the APT registry someone already pointed out to you - it really depends upon the enthusiasm and interest of the developers. And yes, I could go without GIMP and Enlightenment and even X Windows, too. IME GIMP from Slink works fine. Don't know about E - I'm more a wm2 (the window manager with no features but which looks very pretty) person. What your telling me is that when using Debian, I have to get used to using out of date stuff. I won't buy that when the solution is so easy--document what you've done and put it up on a damn Web site so others can benefit from your experience. Documenting everything properly and consistently is non-trivial - there are an awful lot of packages in Debian, with a huge number of interdependancies. Currently, the choice is between stable (rock solid but a bit old) and unstable (which may break but almost always works). I imagine that part of the reason nobody's gone to the trouble of fixing the problem yet is that for the sort of person who likes to run up to date things, unstable is stable enough and nobody's thought it worthwhile to make something in between yet. The name is something of an overstatement. There's nothing intrinsicly wrong with running old things, so long as they aren't broken - some of the machines I help administer run SunOS quite happily. We could upgrade them, but for the most part there's no particular reason to do so. before updating my S.u.S.E. machines to Debian. My server will remain S.u.S.E. until potato is Stable--hopefully before the end of the year. I admire your faith :-) . I'd say more like early next year (although it should freeze in November, which may be good enough for you). Otherwise, giving it a day or two before installing new packages and paying attention to bug reports and the lists should help you steer clear of anything really serious. Using apt, you can track just the list of packages you need rather than the entire distribution. [semi-stable] I will do that. I will also see what kind of interest there is on this. Quite a bit of interest I think, although I wouldn't anticipate anything happening until after Potato is out the door - the intention is to freeze next month, and the best time to make changes would seem to be at the start of the release cycle. I, too, was thinking that this would result in what may be called a semi-stable distribution. Basically it means having another chain of programs with updated contributions which include instructions on integration with Slink. Dependencies would have to be worked out to build .deb packages, but that will work itself out in testing, which can be a simple go/no-go. I think the current thinking is more unstable with a more blunt edge than stable with a few fancy bits IYSWIM. The intention is not to be any more compatible with slink than potato is, but rather to have some kind of testing requirement (eg, a time period without any bug reports) after which
Re: Slink to Potato
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: When I talked with some Debian folks at Linux World, they indicated that Potato was fairly stable and that I could safely upgrade a Slink installation to Potato without problems. However, when looking at the mailing list archives, it seems that it isn't so. For one, perl and everything it depends on is broken. Ooops! I've been slowly upgrading my packages from slink to potato, and frankly, have never had a single problem. I was nervous about upgrading perl, because I've seen all sorts of veiled references to possible hosage (although I've never seen a concise statement of the actual problem), but eventually I just did it, and removed the old perl. Result? No problems, everything seems to work perfectly. Perhaps there are a few packages that crash and burn, but I apparently don't use any of them. -Miles -- Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra. Suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath. At night the ice weasels come. --Nietzsche
Re: Slink to Potato
I've been slowly upgrading my packages from slink to potato, and frankly, have never had a single problem. I was nervous about upgrading perl, because I've seen all sorts of veiled references to possible hosage (although I've never seen a concise statement of the actual problem), but eventually I just did it, and removed the old perl. Result? No problems, everything seems to work perfectly. Perhaps there are a few packages that crash and burn, but I apparently don't use any of them. -Miles That's great. This is what I've heard, but not what I see in the mailing list archive where people ask about problems with Potato and they are answered only That's what unstable means. In other words, you're on your own, pal. Some people just don't have the luxury of working with Unstable. However, much of the software released, like Gnome, GIMP, LyX and such *is* stable. Enlightenment 0.15.x is quite stable, albeit incomplete. It is no less stable than the 0.14.6 that ships on the Slink CDs. So what I'd like to see is a collection of upgrades to the current Stable from the Unstable chain, just the way its done in the Linux kernel. This will keep everybody happy and will delay the obsolescense of Stable. Right now, I wouldn't recommend Slink to anybody. It's just too out of date. I'm only playing around with it because I have a need for it in the future. What can we do to get this accomplished? I'm willing to put in some work to get this ball going. Does anybody else see this as worthwhile? Regards, Arne
Re: Slink to Potato
On Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 03:52:47PM +0900, Miles Bader wrote: I've been slowly upgrading my packages from slink to potato, and frankly, have never had a single problem. I was nervous about upgrading perl, because I've seen all sorts of veiled references to possible hosage (although I've never seen a concise statement of the actual problem), but eventually I just did it, and removed the old perl. Result? No problems, everything seems to work perfectly. Perhaps there are a few packages that crash and burn, but I apparently don't use any of them. How are you doing this? Do you just go get the packages and 'dpkg -i' them or do you use apt? There are a bunch of things I want to upgrade on my system but I assumed that all of the potato packages would have dependencies to library versions I don't have and that updating my libraries would break slink packages that I do have.
Re: Slink to Potato
On Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 12:54:24AM -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is what I've heard, but not what I see in the mailing list archive where people ask about problems with Potato and they are answered only That's what unstable means. In other words, you're on your own, pal. Well, it's a bit better than that - particularly if you keep up with the various lists (mostly -user and -devel) you should be all right. It's more a case of pay attention and be prepared to fix things if they break than anything else. I'd guess that a fair proportion of developers are running at least some unstable, and we like our machines to continue to work. Some people just don't have the luxury of working with Unstable. However, much of the software released, like Gnome, GIMP, LyX and such *is* stable. Sure, but which software and how does it play together :-) . I can actually imagine this being a more serious problem these days with things like GNOME having so many librarie to get right. So what I'd like to see is collection of upgrades to the current Stable from the Unstable chain, just the way its done in the Linux kernel. This will keep everybody happy and will delay the obsolescense of Stable. Right now, I wouldn't recommend Slink to anybody. It's just too out of date. I'm only playing around with it because I have a need for it in the future. I think that's a bit extreme - this machine is running a vanilla Slink system plus kernel 2.2 and the GNOME panel (and it's not as though I couldn't do without the GNOME panel) and it does everything I would want in a Unix system. There isn't much visible difference between it and the potato systems I run. Then again, the potato boxes are pretty much solid - my router/server box here at home runs unstable updated every weekend, and I can't recall any reboots other than for kernel upgrades or when it's been powered down while I've out of town for more than a day or two. The machine which currently acts as smarthost for tardis' outbound mail is running unstable updated approximately daily and hasn't done anything particularly nasty to me. If you really want to run an up-to-date system and can't tolerate any breakage at all then you probably want to have a test box sitting by which you can try out the new versions on before your production system falls over. Otherwise, giving it a day or two before installing new packages and paying attention to bug reports and the lists should help you steer clear of anything really serious. Using apt, you can track just the list of packages you need rather than the entire distribution. What can we do to get this accomplished? I'm willing to put in some work to get this ball going. Does anybody else see this as worthwhile? Check out the extensive existing discussion in the -devel archives. There are several proposals, some of which would require code to be written. IMHO it's probably enough to get the release cycle down to six months, though a semi-stable distribution may be one way to achieve that. -- Mark Brown mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Trying to avoid grumpiness) http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~broonie/ EUFShttp://www.eusa.ed.ac.uk/societies/filmsoc/ pgpRGVSilKcIt.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Slink to Potato
In linux.debian.user, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Some people just don't have the luxury of working with Unstable. However, much of the software released, like Gnome, GIMP, LyX and such *is* stable. Enlightenment 0.15.x is quite stable, albeit incomplete. It is no less stable than the 0.14.6 that ships on the Slink CDs. So what I'd like to see is a collection of upgrades to the current Stable from the Unstable chain, just the way its done in the Linux kernel. This will keep everybody happy and will delay the obsolescense of Stable. Right now, I wouldn't recommend Slink to anybody. It's just too out of date. I'm only playing around with it because I have a need for it in the future. When I asked a similar question a long time ago (but still when slink was stable!) it was explained to me thusly: if you start modifying stable, then you might break it. That means that if one permitted regular modifications/upgrades to stable packages, one would have to go through the entire beta-test cycle ON THE ENTIRE RELEASE each time a package was upgraded. This is impractical. The problem, of course, is that potato is taking a very long time to be released. (Is it even frozen yet? I haven't kept track.) I, too, am waiting for some of the newer software with metaphorically bated breath. So, since you offered to help, the thing you could do is help test potato and get it released. -- Carl Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED] Manager, Dueling Modems Computer Forum http://dm.net
Re: Slink to Potato
On Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 08:17:41AM -0600, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 03:52:47PM +0900, Miles Bader wrote: I've been slowly upgrading my packages from slink to potato, and frankly, have never had a single problem. I was nervous about upgrading perl, because I've seen all sorts of veiled references to possible hosage (although I've never seen a concise statement of the actual problem), but eventually I just did it, and removed the old perl. Result? No problems, everything seems to work perfectly. Perhaps there are a few packages that crash and burn, but I apparently don't use any of them. How are you doing this? Do you just go get the packages and 'dpkg -i' them or do you use apt? There are a bunch of things I want to upgrade on my system but I assumed that all of the potato packages would have dependencies to library versions I don't have and that updating my libraries would break slink packages that I do have. This is exactly what apt is for. Even dpkg -i will say something like package depends on lib2.0 but you only have lib0.2, you loser. As far as hearing horror stories on the list, that's because this is largely a help list. The people who upgrade from slink to potato and don't have any problems don't ask for help. I did it last week and it's very nice, thank you. Rob -- If you wish to succeed, consult three old people.
Re: Slink to Potato
Well, it's a bit better than that - particularly if you keep up with the various lists (mostly -user and -devel) you should be all right. It's more a case of pay attention and be prepared to fix things if they break than anything else. I'd guess that a fair proportion of developers are running at least some unstable, and we like our machines to continue to work. Wouldn't it be nice is this information was collated at one location so that people could build on what's already been done and not have to try everything new every time. That's what open source is about--sharing. What I am proposing is to help collate the information, do the research so that people coming after me don't have to keep up with the various lists. This is a no-brainer. It needs to be done and it needs to be done now. Some people just don't have the luxury of working with Unstable. However,= much of the software released, like Gnome, GIMP, LyX and such *is* stable. Sure, but which software and how does it play together :-) . I can actually imagine this being a more serious problem these days with things like GNOME having so many librarie to get right. Those are a nightmare. That's why it's important for somebody who's already got things working with Slink to document it and share with others so that everybody doesn't have to reinvent the wheel. So what I'd like to see is collection of upgrades to the current Stable from the Unstable chain, jus= t the way its done in the Linux kernel. This will keep everybody happy and will= delay the obsolescense of Stable. Right now, I wouldn't recommend Slink to anyb= ody. It's just too out of date. I'm only playing around with it because I have a need for it in the future. I think that's a bit extreme - this machine is running a vanilla Slink system plus kernel 2.2 and the GNOME panel (and it's not as though I couldn't do without the GNOME panel) and it does everything I would want in a Unix system. There isn't much visible difference between it and the potato systems I run. What's extreme is that hundreds of Debian users have stable upgraded systems and nobody has bothered to document it and post a How-To. And yes, I could go without GIMP and Enlightenment and even X Windows, too. What your telling me is that when using Debian, I have to get used to using out of date stuff. I won't buy that when the solution is so easy--document what you've done and put it up on a damn Web site so others can benefit from your experience. Then again, the potato boxes are pretty much solid - my router/server box here at home runs unstable updated every weekend, and I can't recall=20 any reboots other than for kernel upgrades or when it's been powered down= =20 while I've out of town for more than a day or two. The machine which currently acts as smarthost for tardis' outbound mail is running unstable updated approximately daily and hasn't done anything particularly nasty to me. If you really want to run an up-to-date system and can't tolerate any breakage at all then you probably want to have a test box sitting by which you can try out the new versions on before your production system falls over. I have one system for this very purpose. I will use it as a test base before updating my S.u.S.E. machines to Debian. My server will remain S.u.S.E. until potato is Stable--hopefully before the end of the year. Otherwise, giving it a day or two before installing new packages and=20 paying attention to bug reports and the lists should help you steer clear of anything really serious. Using apt, you can track just the list of packages you need rather than the entire distribution. What can we do to get this accomplished? I'm willing to put in some work to get this ball going. Does anybody else see this as worthwhile? Check out the extensive existing discussion in the -devel archives. There= are several proposals, some of which would require code to be written. IMHO it's probably enough to get the release cycle down to six months, though a semi-stable distribution may be one way to achieve that. I will do that. I will also see what kind of interest there is on this. I, too, was thinking that this would result in what may be called a semi-stable distribution. Basically it means having another chain of programs with updated contributions which include instructions on integration with Slink. Dependencies would have to be worked out to build .deb packages, but that will work itself out in testing, which can be a simple go/no-go. I welcome other ideas on this. Please chime in. Regards, Arne
Re: Slink to Potato
When I asked a similar question a long time ago (but still when slink was stable!) it was explained to me thusly: if you start modifying stable, then you might break it. That means that if one permitted regular modifications/upgrades to stable packages, one would have to go through the entire beta-test cycle ON THE ENTIRE RELEASE each time a package was upgraded. This is impractical. Stability with stagnation in a rapidly evolving world is not practical. Forcing the hundreds or thousands of people who have updated their Debian releases to do so without the assistance of others who have already done so is most impractical. The problem, of course, is that potato is taking a very long time to be released. (Is it even frozen yet? I haven't kept track.) I, too, am waiting for some of the newer software with metaphorically bated breath. So, since you offered to help, the thing you could do is help test potato and get it released. I have no desire to test potato at this time. I have other projects which consume my time. I will, however, write up a Debian Update HowTo which lists those Unstable modules which people have ported to Slink so that every other person who wants to do this doesn't have to go through the agony of researching everything anew. I know of no other distribution which provides this information. Debian could be the first. Of course, with Slink being so out of date, it just so happens that Debian needs this more than the others. At this point, it needs it very badly. Regards, Arne [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Slink to Potato
On Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 08:17:41AM -0600, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How are you doing this? Do you just go get the packages and 'dpkg -i' them or do you use apt? There are a bunch of things I want to upgrade on my system but I assumed that all of the potato packages would have dependencie s to library versions I don't have and that updating my libraries would break slink packages that I do have. This is exactly what apt is for. Even dpkg -i will say something like package depends on lib2.0 but you only have lib0.2, you loser. As far as hearing horror stories on the list, that's because this is largely a help list. The people who upgrade from slink to potato and don't have any problems don't ask for help. I did it last week and it's very nice, thank you. Rob, I'm no apt expert. Would you write up a section on Apt for a Debian Update HowTo? I will voluteer to edit and put it together as well as providing content. If need be, I will even host it on my server. The HowTo would include lists of packages and the techniques on how to bring the latest version of applications to the current Stable Debian release. Thanks. Arne [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Slink to Potato
On Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 09:58:59AM -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Rob, I'm no apt expert. Would you write up a section on Apt for a Debian Update HowTo? I will voluteer to edit and put it together as well as providing content. If need be, I will even host it on my server. The HowTo would include lists of packages and the techniques on how to bring the latest version of applications to the current Stable Debian release. Yeah, I guess I could do something like that --- though I don't guarantee quality or punctuality, since I have a pretty heavy courseload this semester. That's why I'm not volunteering already annoying smiley here. Here's an idea for the out-of-dateness question: what if new major revisions of software (like LyX going from 0.4 to 1.0, or, hypothetically, Netscape going to version 5) were included in the proposed-updates section and incorporated into the next stable r-release (which I think will be Debian 2.0r4 or something like that. Library dependencies and such could be resolved (or at least stablized) in the same way that they are for security issues. This seems like a fair way to include newly-added functionality to the stable release without having to change Debian's whole release cycle. Any comments? Rob -- Time and tide wait for no man.
Re: Slink to Potato
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I will, however, write up a Debian Update HowTo which lists those Unstable modules which people have ported to Slink so that every other person who wants to do this doesn't have to go through the agony of researching everything anew. I know of no other distribution which provides this information. Debian could be the first. http://www.internatif.org/bortzmeyer/debian/apt-sources/
Re: Slink to Potato
http://www.internatif.org/bortzmeyer/debian/apt-sources/ This is the type of information that should be linked to on the Debian host site. One should not have to come to the Mailing Lists to find this. The logical place to put this is with the Gnome Slink update link. I can see that much of the information is already available. This will make writing the HowTo and putting together the rest much easier. Thanks for the link. Regards, Arne
Re: Slink to Potato
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.internatif.org/bortzmeyer/debian/apt-sources/ This is the type of information that should be linked to on the Debian host site. Unfortunately, the Debian web page is pretty static except for the dynamically generated package indices. Nothing much gets added directly. The info did appear in the Debian Weekly News (August 10th). Thanks for the link. No problem.
Re: Slink to Potato
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- On Thu, 30 Sep 1999 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When I talked with some Debian folks at Linux World, they indicated that Potato was fairly stable and that I could safely upgrade a Slink installation to Potato without problems. However, when looking at the mailing list archives, it seems that it isn't so. For one, perl and everything it depends on is broken. Ooops! It was at one point. That has been fixed now. For the most part, you can update a slink system to potato with no trouble. However, there's always the possibility that something will break, like the Lilo problem of a few days ago (which, BTW, has been temporarily downgraded to a working version)... There was also some talk about bringing the latest applications from Unstable to Stable so that Stable remains up to date, which is kind of what they do with the Linux kernel. Without some mechanism to do this, Debian is badly outdated. Slink still ships with Enlightenment 0.14, Gnome 0.30 and LyX 0.12--my favorite tools are hopelessly unusable. Depending on the particular package, recompiling for slink can be as simple as apt-get --compile source packagename (with a new enough version of apt, of course). The versioned Perl dependancies and such can be fixed by editing debian/control in the downloaded source. Of course, there _could_ be libraries that need upgrading to, or a program may really need glibc 2.1 and can't work with 2.0 in slink. That's why i said can be above ;) I need a 2.2 kernel before I can use Debian on my main box. But, I am experimenting with Slink on a small Pentium box. I must say that everything works wonderfully. I can apt-get through my big box's ip-chains. Everything is cool except for the legacy major components, like the windows managers. There's a howto somewhere on the Debian site saying which packages have to be updated to use a 2.2 kernel with Slink. Also, in the kernel sources from your.fav.mirror.kernel.org there's a listing of various software and which version it should be. I want to upgrade the packages to the latest. I know that many Debian users do this because nobody could remain happy with standard Slink for long. I could, given the proper circumstances. For example, the webserver where i work still runs Apache 0.8.something since If it ain't broke, don't fix it! Is there a standard place for updated packages? If there isn't, there should be. At least I want the latest released Gnome, Enlightenment, LyX and GIMP--all the major packages which take so much effort to compile and install from tarballs. Somebody has done this. It's not standard, but check out ftp.netgod.net/x. Many slinkified apps there. - -- finger for PGP public key. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: 2.6.3ia Charset: noconv iQCVAwUBN/UfsL7M/9WKZLW5AQFPEQP/U2Sv0a1hQ67WJQb2vDLsTWRhp4y/lOHe 2ZrSu2AKAIhYrae69OYKycaTo3SbRPkOBr0nGyXHdVD+PFuRKsg2oYdUHeLLw0+H anoWFLEU28YKwop+4IIMZEa8xS4S5+f22SwIjRjwJ9lh1XLbTeSZal90yWqrs9Am gDZwL+7EQ18= =skGJ -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: slink to potato - minor error messages
On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Christian Dysthe wrote: Hi, Hi updated to potato. Looks like everything went fine except for these two errors I get when I boot: 1. [mntent]: no final newline at the end of /etc/fstab Put in a newline at the end of /etc/fstab? 2. Modprobe can't find netpf19 This seems to be a bug of some sort. Add this line to /etc/modutils/aliases alias net-pf-19 off Then execute update-modules as root
Re: slink to potato - minor error messages
On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Christian Dysthe wrote: Hi, updated to potato. Looks like everything went fine except for these two errors I get when I boot: 1. [mntent]: no final newline at the end of /etc/fstab edit your fstab and add a blank line on the end 2. Modprobe can't find netpf19 comment out the alias in /etc/modutils/aliases, or alias it off if it ain't there to comment out How do I deal with these? TIA --- Regards, Christian Dysthe Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.bigfoot.com/~cdysthe ICQ 3945810 Date: 22-Apr-99 Time: 23:48:15 This message was sent by XFmail Powered by Debian GNU/Linux --- -- Unsubscribe? mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] /dev/null Pardon me, but you have obviously mistaken me for someone who gives a damn. email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
