Re: System freeze using web browsers

[David Wright]

On Sat 12 May 2018 at 11:37:44 (+1200), Ben Caradoc-Davies wrote:

> Laptops are harder; there used to be low-power fanless models that
> radiated heat through the keyboard, but these seem to be less
> common. I hope ARM64 will become more common.

I have a (fan-endowed) laptop that runs hot (the highest CPU
temperature I've observed is 96.5°C). The warmth of the keyboard
gives me the manual equivalent of Restless Leg Syndrome.

Cheers,
David.

Re: System freeze using web browsers

[Ben Caradoc-Davies]

On 11/05/18 18:56, Joe wrote:

On Fri, 11 May 2018 11:37:24 +1200
Richard Hector  wrote:

On 11/05/18 03:17, Cindy-Sue Causey wrote:

Those times it happened, I remember kicking myself (HARD!) for not
*simply* making sure there were no dust bunnies gathering inside the
case in the days just prior to the hardware loss. :)

Hmm. I wonder how hard it would be to design/build a dust bunny
sensor ...

Easier to fit temperature sensors and use good fan filters. On the
other hand, it takes more effort to wash fan filters than suck out a
bit of loose dust, and has to be done more frequently.


Easierest to go fanless. No fans means no noise and no dust or cat hair 
being concentrated inside your computer. Fanless still benefits from 
temperature sensors and thermald. I am using an i7 7700 (Kaby Lake 65 W 
TDP) in a Streacom FC8 Alpha with a 120 W power adapter, using only the 
integrated Intel HD 630 GPU. It maintains nearly full turbo boost under 
heavy CPU load, in complete silence. Discrete GPUs are the real power 
hogs and heat generators in modern systems.


Laptops are harder; there used to be low-power fanless models that 
radiated heat through the keyboard, but these seem to be less common. I 
hope ARM64 will become more common.


Kind regards,

--
Ben Caradoc-Davies 
Director
Transient Software Limited 
New Zealand

Re: System freeze using web browsers

[Joe]

On Fri, 11 May 2018 07:39:34 + (UTC)
Curt  wrote:

> On 2018-05-11, Joe  wrote:
> > On Fri, 11 May 2018 11:37:24 +1200
> > Richard Hector  wrote:
> >  
> >> On 11/05/18 03:17, Cindy-Sue Causey wrote:  
> >> > Those times it happened, I remember kicking myself (HARD!) for
> >> > not *simply* making sure there were no dust bunnies gathering
> >> > inside the case in the days just prior to the hardware
> >> > loss. :)
> >> 
> >> Hmm. I wonder how hard it would be to design/build a dust bunny
> >> sensor ...
> >>   
> >
> > Easier to fit temperature sensors and use good fan filters. On the
> > other hand, it takes more effort to wash fan filters than suck out a
> > bit of loose dust, and has to be done more frequently.
> >  
> 
> I thought sucking it out sucked and you were supposed to blow it out.
> 
> 

Disturb the dust while holding the vacuum nozzle nearby. Yes, the
vacuum cleaner itself doesn't usually have enough power to actually
detach all the dust, but blowing it involves chasing the dust actually
outside the box, not letting it settle again inside.

-- 
Joe

Re: System freeze using web browsers

[Curt]

On 2018-05-11, Joe  wrote:
> On Fri, 11 May 2018 11:37:24 +1200
> Richard Hector  wrote:
>
>> On 11/05/18 03:17, Cindy-Sue Causey wrote:
>> > Those times it happened, I remember kicking myself (HARD!) for not
>> > *simply* making sure there were no dust bunnies gathering inside the
>> > case in the days just prior to the hardware loss. :)  
>> 
>> Hmm. I wonder how hard it would be to design/build a dust bunny
>> sensor ...
>> 
>
> Easier to fit temperature sensors and use good fan filters. On the
> other hand, it takes more effort to wash fan filters than suck out a
> bit of loose dust, and has to be done more frequently.
>

I thought sucking it out sucked and you were supposed to blow it out.

Re: System freeze using web browsers

[Joe]

On Fri, 11 May 2018 11:37:24 +1200
Richard Hector  wrote:

> On 11/05/18 03:17, Cindy-Sue Causey wrote:
> > Those times it happened, I remember kicking myself (HARD!) for not
> > *simply* making sure there were no dust bunnies gathering inside the
> > case in the days just prior to the hardware loss. :)  
> 
> Hmm. I wonder how hard it would be to design/build a dust bunny
> sensor ...
> 

Easier to fit temperature sensors and use good fan filters. On the
other hand, it takes more effort to wash fan filters than suck out a
bit of loose dust, and has to be done more frequently.

-- 
Joe

Re: System freeze using web browsers

[Richard Hector]

On 11/05/18 03:17, Cindy-Sue Causey wrote:
> Those times it happened, I remember kicking myself (HARD!) for not
> *simply* making sure there were no dust bunnies gathering inside the
> case in the days just prior to the hardware loss. :)

Hmm. I wonder how hard it would be to design/build a dust bunny sensor ...

Richard



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Re: System freeze using web browsers

[Kenneth Parker]

I used to have an Acer Netbook, which would, regularly overheat, if I dared
use it, more than a 1/2 hour at a time, with the "on-board" Hard Drive.

HOWEVER, I had no trouble, running Ubuntu Server 12.04 (as an "always-on"
Server), but ONLY on a Thumb Drive. Text only, cover closed, most access
through ssh, though I would, occasionally open the Cover and use the Text
Consoles.

Obviously, the Hard Drive was heating it up!  (I eventually ended up,
installing Debian 6 on the Internal Hard, and using it to Archive files,
from other Computers.  But still, mostly booting from the Thumb Drive).

Good luck with your Hardware!

Kenneth Parker

Re: System freeze using web browsers

[Cindy-Sue Causey]

On 5/10/18, Ben Caradoc-Davies  wrote:
> On 10/05/18 17:36, Felix Miata wrote:
>> Ben Caradoc-Davies composed on 2018-05-10 17:13 (UTC+1200):
>>> Alexander, are there any signs of overheating at the time of the freeze?
>> Any _other_ signs? Apparently "random" freezing after 30 minutes heavy
>> use, such
>> as watching a video with a 1GHz CPU and 276MHz (normal clock) GPU[1], _is_
>> a
>> sign of overheating or other physical malfunction, not likely a problem
>> that
>> changing driver or kernel could likely solve.
>
> Other signs like elevated sensor temperatures, fans screaming, raised
> surface temperatures, smoke ...


That reminded me that there can be an uncomfortable "hot smell" that's
an early warning sign that smoke and maybe a *pop-sizzle* is likely
imminent. I fried a couple different power supplies over the years
because my brain didn't cognitively register that hot smell for what
it was the second it appeared.

Those times it happened, I remember kicking myself (HARD!) for not
*simply* making sure there were no dust bunnies gathering inside the
case in the days just prior to the hardware loss. :)

Cindy :)
-- 
Cindy-Sue Causey
Talking Rock, Pickens County, Georgia, USA

* runs with that "pink" screen tint that's not offending consistently
enough to track cause *

Re: System freeze using web browsers

[Ben Caradoc-Davies]

On 10/05/18 17:36, Felix Miata wrote:

Ben Caradoc-Davies composed on 2018-05-10 17:13 (UTC+1200):

Alexander, are there any signs of overheating at the time of the freeze?

Any _other_ signs? Apparently "random" freezing after 30 minutes heavy use, such
as watching a video with a 1GHz CPU and 276MHz (normal clock) GPU[1], _is_ a
sign of overheating or other physical malfunction, not likely a problem that
changing driver or kernel could likely solve.


Other signs like elevated sensor temperatures, fans screaming, raised 
surface temperatures, smoke ...


I have a 2010 vintage Acer Aspire 1430 (Arrandale i3-330UM) and it still 
works fine on those rare occasions that I use it. It has a weaker GPU 
than the Acer Aspire V5 (121), but its Intel HD Graphics (Ironlake) 
might be better supported than the AMD Radeon HD 6290.


If the problem only started with a system update as reported, it could 
be a software defect. I suggest gathering more evidence.


Kind regards,

--
Ben Caradoc-Davies 
Director
Transient Software Limited 
New Zealand

Re: System freeze using web browsers

[Felix Miata]

Ben Caradoc-Davies composed on 2018-05-10 17:13 (UTC+1200):

> Felix Miata wrote:

>> It's a 7 year old budget notebook. Likely either 7 years of heat has taken a
>> toll on some heat sensitive component, or dust accumulation is _causing_
>> overheating that might be overcome by a cleaning. Maybe it has a fan that 
>> quit,
>> or a battery that can't keep up with need.

> This is a good point. Alexander, are there any signs of overheating at 
> the time of the freeze? Have you cleaned the fan? Does the freeze occur 
> on battery or when the power adapter is attached?

Any _other_ signs? Apparently "random" freezing after 30 minutes heavy use, such
as watching a video with a 1GHz CPU and 276MHz (normal clock) GPU[1], _is_ a
sign of overheating or other physical malfunction, not likely a problem that
changing driver or kernel could likely solve.

[1]
https://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-C-Series-C-70-Notebook-Processor.82852.0.html
(5.5 years old, not 7)
-- 
"Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you
get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

Re: System freeze using web browsers

[Ben Caradoc-Davies]

On 10/05/18 15:40, Felix Miata wrote:

You could have looked it up:
https://www.cnet.com/products/acer-aspire-v5-121-0430-11-6-c-70-4-gb-ram-320-gb-hdd/specs/


This would not have answered my question: "What video drivers and version?"


It's a 7 year old budget notebook. Likely either 7 years of heat has taken a
toll on some heat sensitive component, or dust accumulation is _causing_
overheating that might be overcome by a cleaning. Maybe it has a fan that quit,
or a battery that can't keep up with need.


This is a good point. Alexander, are there any signs of overheating at 
the time of the freeze? Have you cleaned the fan? Does the freeze occur 
on battery or when the power adapter is attached?


Kind regards,

--
Ben Caradoc-Davies 
Director
Transient Software Limited 
New Zealand

Re: System freeze using web browsers

[Felix Miata]

Ben Caradoc-Davies composed on 2018-05-10 15:17 (UTC+1200):

> Alexander Beerhoff wrote:
...
>> I’ve found increasing heavier problems using web browser. In earlier stage
>> the “system” freeze (no ctrl-alt-function-key response) when watching long
>> video online (say at least 30 min, say on you tube.com), now (as
>> consequence of system update??) cannot use any browser: tried chromium
>> firefox(esr,stable,nightly) epiphany-browser qutebrowser and the result are
>> system freeze or shutdown (watching video).
>> I’ve described the problem in very generic terms, I’ve filled ticket on
>> mozilla for earlier problem but cannot profile browser since gui is very
>> unresponsive when not freezed. Can you help? Waiting for your welcome
>> advices.
...
>> Basic info:
>> Computer Acer Aspire V5 (121)
>> uname -v: #1 SMP Debian 4.16.5-1

> My immediate suspicion is your video drivers. In addition to the kernel, 
> the mesa package and third-party video drivers can participate in 
> delivering video to your screen. Any of these can cause a GPU hang and 
> freeze your system. GPU hardware acceleration is used to decode video.

> - What is your model of CPU?
> - What is your GPU?

You could have looked it up:
https://www.cnet.com/products/acer-aspire-v5-121-0430-11-6-c-70-4-gb-ram-320-gb-hdd/specs/

It's a 7 year old budget notebook. Likely either 7 years of heat has taken a
toll on some heat sensitive component, or dust accumulation is _causing_
overheating that might be overcome by a cleaning. Maybe it has a fan that quit,
or a battery that can't keep up with need.
-- 
"Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you
get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

Re: System freeze using web browsers

[Ben Caradoc-Davies]

On 10/05/18 09:17, Alexander Beerhoff wrote:

Dear Debian Team,
I’ve found increasing heavier problems using web browser. In earlier stage
the “system” freeze (no ctrl-alt-function-key response) when watching long
video online (say at least 30 min, say on you tube.com), now (as
consequence of system update??) cannot use any browser: tried chromium
firefox(esr,stable,nightly) epiphany-browser qutebrowser and the result are
system freeze or shutdown (watching video).
I’ve described the problem in very generic terms, I’ve filled ticket on
mozilla for earlier problem but cannot profile browser since gui is very
unresponsive when not freezed. Can you help? Waiting for your welcome
advices.
Thank you for your attention and best regards.
Basic info:
Computer Acer Aspire V5 (121)
uname -v: #1 SMP Debian 4.16.5-1


My immediate suspicion is your video drivers. In addition to the kernel, 
the mesa package and third-party video drivers can participate in 
delivering video to your screen. Any of these can cause a GPU hang and 
freeze your system. GPU hardware acceleration is used to decode video.


- What is your model of CPU?
- What is your GPU?
- What video drivers and version?
- What mesa package version?

The mesa and video driver developers will be much more receptive to 
these problems than Mozilla developers. What you have is likely a 
problem with the drivers for your hardware. Mozilla developers cannot 
help, but video driver developers will want to fix it.


Kind regards,

--
Ben Caradoc-Davies 
Director
Transient Software Limited 
New Zealand

Re: System freeze using web browsers

[Carl Fink]

On 05/09/2018 05:17 PM, Alexander Beerhoff wrote:

Dear Debian Team,
I’ve found increasing heavier problems using web browser. In earlier 
stage the “system” freeze (no ctrl-alt-function-key response) when 
watching long video online (say at least 30 min, say on you tube.com 
), now (as consequence of system update??) cannot use 
any browser: tried chromium firefox(esr,stable,nightly) 
epiphany-browser qutebrowser and the result are system freeze or 
shutdown (watching video).
I’ve described the problem in very generic terms, I’ve filled ticket 
on mozilla for earlier problem but cannot profile browser since gui is 
very unresponsive when not freezed. Can you help? Waiting for your 
welcome advices.


Minor point: there is no "Debian Team" per se. This list is not mostly
read by developers, just fellow users.

Have you checked the logs (in /var/log), such as syslog? It's possible
the cause of the freeze would be recorded there.

Can you telnet/ssh into the frozen box from outside? That would imply
that it is X that froze, and the underlying system still operates.

Can you ping the frozen box? (For the above idea, and for this one,
get and write down the IP address before trying a web browser.)

--
Carl Fink  c...@finknetwork.com
Thinking and logic and stuff at Reasonably Literate
http://reasonablyliterate.com

Re: System freeze using web browsers

[Bob Weber]

On 5/9/18 5:17 PM, Alexander Beerhoff wrote:

Dear Debian Team,
I’ve found increasing heavier problems using web browser. In earlier stage the 
“system” freeze (no ctrl-alt-function-key response) when watching long video 
online (say at least 30 min, say on you tube.com ), now (as 
consequence of system update??) cannot use any browser: tried chromium 
firefox(esr,stable,nightly) epiphany-browser qutebrowser and the result are 
system freeze or shutdown (watching video).
I’ve described the problem in very generic terms, I’ve filled ticket on 
mozilla for earlier problem but cannot profile browser since gui is very 
unresponsive when not freezed. Can you help? Waiting for your welcome advices.

Thank you for your attention and best regards.

Basic info:
Computer Acer Aspire V5 (121)
uname -v: #1 SMP Debian 4.16.5-1
--
Umi sukoschi
Niwa ni izumi no
Ko no ma ka na


Not knowing the details of you system I would suggest to back down to a 4.15-?? 
kernel.  I had the same problem watching Netflix on the official chrome browser 
running the 4.16.0-1 amd64 kernel. I even downgraded chrome but the fix was 
going back to kernel 4.15.17-1.  If you have other kernels installed just reboot 
and select another kernel from the grub menu to see if that is the fix for you.  
If you can't install the 4.15.17-1 kernel from your current sources try 
http://snapshot.debian.org/ in the last week of April.


--


*...Bob*