Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On Sat, Feb 16, 2008 at 12:24:09AM -, Thomas Dickey wrote: I revisit it periodically. There was a patch (I do have a copy), but not useful due to licensing - it relied on GPL libraries. Supposedly the library license was changed to LGPL, but read that it wasn't done with the agreement of all contributors. (I'll pick through the thread for more details ;-) Fribidi is lgpl. Has been lgpl from day 1, as the original author (Dov Grobgeld) wrote it with the intention of adding bidi support to GTK. There was a patch by Robert Brady. But at some point he seem to have disappeared. Another page I can find: http://people.debian.org/~kubota/xterm.html I'm not sure if I can find that old patch anywhere. Even if I can, I suspectr that it won't be of much help now. -- Tzafrir Cohen | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's [EMAIL PROTECTED] || best ICQ# 16849754 || friend -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
s. keeling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michelle Konzack [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Am 2008-02-10 19:26:30, schrieb Tzafrir Cohen: On Sun, Feb 10, 2008 at 09:09:55PM +0200, Dotan Cohen wrote: No. I have no need for Arabic, really, I was just checking how Arabic is displayed on the console for Ron Johnson. I do have need for Hebrew, however, and typing it on the console comes out LTR. I would like to get libfribidi working. Try mlterm . (The verb try is appropriate here, as mlterm is a bit buggy). Hmmm, I do not remember since when, but maybe since Potato? It seems, mlterm will be never run stable. before this happen Thomas Dickey has added bidi support to XTerm... :-) I revisit it periodically. There was a patch (I do have a copy), but not useful due to licensing - it relied on GPL libraries. Supposedly the library license was changed to LGPL, but read that it wasn't done with the agreement of all contributors. (I'll pick through the thread for more details ;-) (Maybe he read this stuff) I believe he Kibos xterm, as I often see him pop up wherever it's mentioned. Hi Thomas. :-) You're one exceptionally dilligent maintainer. Much appreciated. He should be here any second now to sort htis out. google helps (not as much as it used to - looks like the google-bias is filtering out almost all of the ongoing usenet comments). -- Thomas E. Dickey http://invisible-island.net ftp://invisible-island.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
Am 2008-02-13 08:51:53, schrieb Tzafrir Cohen: On Sun, Feb 10, 2008 at 11:38:04PM +0100, Michelle Konzack wrote: Package: dynafont Maintainer: Piotr Roszatycki [EMAIL PROTECTED] Version: 1.0-23.7 Description: Module for konwert package which loads UTF-8 fonts dynamically snip Again, this is needed for the Linux console, which is limited with a character map of 512 characters. Or you can use the font LatArCyrHeb-16 . Right, it is the hack for the 512 character limit... I have already created my own Console-Font so I can write english, german, french, spanish, turkish, arabic and farsi, but in UNICODE. It is difficult to make the font, but the whole set does not exceed the 512 character limit and I have many chars free... under xterm you need only ONE font which support all desired languages and then you should use, e.g., for mutt the set display_filter=fribidi string BUT (!!!) use the one (version 2) from upstream since it has heavy changed and does now support the shaping and oter stuff. Now it works for arabic and farsi. Thanks, Greetings and nice Day Michelle Konzack Systemadministrator Tamay Dogan Network Debian GNU/Linux Consultant -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant # Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 +49/177/935194750, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi +33/6/61925193 67100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) signature.pgp Description: Digital signature
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On Thu, Feb 14, 2008 at 01:20:30AM +0100, Michelle Konzack wrote: Right, it is the hack for the 512 character limit... I have already created my own Console-Font so I can write english, german, french, spanish, turkish, arabic and farsi, but in UNICODE. It is difficult to make the font, but the whole set does not exceed the 512 character limit and I have many chars free... Line drawing too? under xterm you need only ONE font which support all desired languages and then you should use, e.g., for mutt the set display_filter=fribidi string BUT (!!!) use the one (version 2) from upstream since it has heavy changed and does now support the shaping and oter stuff. bidiv is a bit smarter than fribidi with regards to charset conversions, default paragraph directions, and such. Generally more adapted to serve as a mail reader filter, though less of a general-purpose reader. It uses libfribidi, and you can probably relink it with fribidi 2. -- Tzafrir Cohen | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's [EMAIL PROTECTED] || best ICQ# 16849754 || friend -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On Sun, Feb 10, 2008 at 11:38:04PM +0100, Michelle Konzack wrote: Am 2008-02-10 19:14:56, schrieb Dotan Cohen: Thanks for the tip, Michelle. Tell me, how does one configure Konsole to use it? It can be seen here that libfribidi is installed, yet the Examples: Package: acon Maintainer: Ahmed El-Mahmoudy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Version: 1.0.5-4 Description: Text console arabization The function of acon is to display arabic text from right to left, and process it to change the letter shape according to its position in the word. IIRC acon is something for the linux console only. I also recall it was quite buggy. At least last time I tried it (around 2001). Were there any newer versions? It has gone through a rewrite (acca?) at arround 2004 or so, but that stalled too. Anybody has better details? and general UTF-8 Package: dynafont Maintainer: Piotr Roszatycki [EMAIL PROTECTED] Version: 1.0-23.7 Description: Module for konwert package which loads UTF-8 fonts dynamically This is a tool which allows displaying texts containing thousands of different characters. It switches console to UTF8 mode and loads required fonts dynamically. It is recommended to use this tool with filterm(1) tool, i.e. by executing 'filterm - dynafont' command or 'filterm - 512bold+dynafont' if you are not using framebuffer. . The tool works with UTF8-compatible applications, i.e. lynx(1). There are problems with 8-bit only applications. Again, this is needed for the Linux console, which is limited with a character map of 512 characters. Or you can use the font LatArCyrHeb-16 . -- Tzafrir Cohen | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's [EMAIL PROTECTED] || best ICQ# 16849754 || friend -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
Am 2008-02-10 19:26:30, schrieb Tzafrir Cohen: On Sun, Feb 10, 2008 at 09:09:55PM +0200, Dotan Cohen wrote: No. I have no need for Arabic, really, I was just checking how Arabic is displayed on the console for Ron Johnson. I do have need for Hebrew, however, and typing it on the console comes out LTR. I would like to get libfribidi working. Try mlterm . (The verb try is appropriate here, as mlterm is a bit buggy). Hmmm, I do not remember since when, but maybe since Potato? It seems, mlterm will be never run stable. before this happen Thomas Dickey has added bidi support to XTerm... :-) (Maybe he read this stuff) Thanks, Greetings and nice Day Michelle Konzack Systemadministrator Tamay Dogan Network Debian GNU/Linux Consultant -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant # Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 50, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi 0033/6/6192519367100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com)
Re: [OT] Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On Wed, Feb 13, 2008 at 06:26:23AM +0100, s. keeling wrote: Eduardo M KALINOWSKI [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Dotan Cohen wrote: Yes, the .. are pointless (pun intended). Well, they do have a purpose, but they are not everyday essentials. Arabic speakers feel very comfortable speaking Hebrew, I should imagine that Farsi is similar. Not really, Arabic and Hebrew both belong to the Semitc family of languages. Farsi, on the other hand, despite being written with a Apologies to those uninterested, but I'd like to state that this whole thread has been wildly entertaining and educational, in my opinion. hear hear! A signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
Michelle Konzack [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Am 2008-02-10 19:26:30, schrieb Tzafrir Cohen: On Sun, Feb 10, 2008 at 09:09:55PM +0200, Dotan Cohen wrote: No. I have no need for Arabic, really, I was just checking how Arabic is displayed on the console for Ron Johnson. I do have need for Hebrew, however, and typing it on the console comes out LTR. I would like to get libfribidi working. Try mlterm . (The verb try is appropriate here, as mlterm is a bit buggy). Hmmm, I do not remember since when, but maybe since Potato? It seems, mlterm will be never run stable. before this happen Thomas Dickey has added bidi support to XTerm... :-) (Maybe he read this stuff) I believe he Kibos xterm, as I often see him pop up wherever it's mentioned. Hi Thomas. :-) You're one exceptionally dilligent maintainer. Much appreciated. He should be here any second now to sort htis out. -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*)http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html Linux Counter #80292 - -http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.htmlPlease, don't Cc: me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On 11/02/2008, Michelle Konzack [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Am 2008-02-10 19:14:56, schrieb Dotan Cohen: Thanks for the tip, Michelle. Tell me, how does one configure Konsole to use it? It can be seen here that libfribidi is installed, yet the Examples: Package: acon Maintainer: Ahmed El-Mahmoudy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Version: 1.0.5-4 Description: Text console arabization The function of acon is to display arabic text from right to left, and process it to change the letter shape according to its position in the word. and general UTF-8 Package: dynafont Maintainer: Piotr Roszatycki [EMAIL PROTECTED] Version: 1.0-23.7 Description: Module for konwert package which loads UTF-8 fonts dynamically This is a tool which allows displaying texts containing thousands of different characters. It switches console to UTF8 mode and loads required fonts dynamically. It is recommended to use this tool with filterm(1) tool, i.e. by executing 'filterm - dynafont' command or 'filterm - 512bold+dynafont' if you are not using framebuffer. . The tool works with UTF8-compatible applications, i.e. lynx(1). There are problems with 8-bit only applications. Something's not right. Should I bug the Ubuntu list on this one, as this is an Ubuntu system: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ filterm - dynafont Couldn't get a file descriptor referring to the console konwert: error executing filter [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ Do you use mutt in the console? set display_filter=fribidi Actually, I don't use mutt. But I'll keep that handy, as I'm sure that day will come when I need to use that. At least in Israel, we use 28 Arabic letters. Letters which do not exist in arabic are: pe, cim, ze and gãf Wikipedia doesn't show those letters. Too bad. I always like something new. We have a great book with all the world's scripts at my university library. I'll look Farsi up. If you mean that they are unnecessary and only make the learning even harder, then you are correct! OK, I will stop immediatly to understand the . :-) Yes, the .. are pointless (pun intended). Well, they do have a purpose, but they are not everyday essentials. Arabic speakers feel very comfortable speaking Hebrew, I should imagine that Farsi is similar. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
[OT] Re: What am I missing without mutt?
Eduardo M KALINOWSKI [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Dotan Cohen wrote: Yes, the .. are pointless (pun intended). Well, they do have a purpose, but they are not everyday essentials. Arabic speakers feel very comfortable speaking Hebrew, I should imagine that Farsi is similar. Not really, Arabic and Hebrew both belong to the Semitc family of languages. Farsi, on the other hand, despite being written with a Apologies to those uninterested, but I'd like to state that this whole thread has been wildly entertaining and educational, in my opinion. -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*)http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html Linux Counter #80292 - -http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.htmlPlease, don't Cc: me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On 12/02/2008, Eduardo M KALINOWSKI [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not really, Arabic and Hebrew both belong to the Semitc family of languages. Farsi, on the other hand, despite being written with a similar alphabet to Arabic, belongs to the Indo-European family (which incidentally is the same one that English belongs to), so the languages are quite different. Thanks, I did not know that. We have many Farsi in Israel, and I'm surprised that that fact has eluded me until now. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
Am 2008-02-10 19:14:56, schrieb Dotan Cohen: Thanks for the tip, Michelle. Tell me, how does one configure Konsole to use it? It can be seen here that libfribidi is installed, yet the Examples: Package: acon Maintainer: Ahmed El-Mahmoudy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Version: 1.0.5-4 Description: Text console arabization The function of acon is to display arabic text from right to left, and process it to change the letter shape according to its position in the word. and general UTF-8 Package: dynafont Maintainer: Piotr Roszatycki [EMAIL PROTECTED] Version: 1.0-23.7 Description: Module for konwert package which loads UTF-8 fonts dynamically This is a tool which allows displaying texts containing thousands of different characters. It switches console to UTF8 mode and loads required fonts dynamically. It is recommended to use this tool with filterm(1) tool, i.e. by executing 'filterm - dynafont' command or 'filterm - 512bold+dynafont' if you are not using framebuffer. . The tool works with UTF8-compatible applications, i.e. lynx(1). There are problems with 8-bit only applications. Hebrew that looks fine when pasted in Firefox is in fact displayed reversed in Konsole: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ sudo apt-get install libfribidi0 Reading package lists... Done Building dependency tree Reading state information... Done libfribidi0 is already the newest version. 0 , 0 ?? ??, 0 ?? ??-19 ??. [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ Do you use mutt in the console? set display_filter=fribidi :-) and it should work if you have dynafont installed. Oops, I have forgotten to say, you need fribidi2 which has heavy enhancements. (I am on the fribidi list on freedesktop.org) And farsi has 4 letters more then arabic (24=28) I just looked at the Arabic alphabet, and all 28 of the letters look familiar to me: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_alphabet Oops. I mean 28=32 At least in Israel, we use 28 Arabic letters. Letters which do not exist in arabic are: pe, cim, ze and gãf Hmm, I can not put the inverted ^ on the top of the c(im) and z(e) im my Sarge console... I should upgrade my TP570 to Etch... :-) The dots are brain-crackers... (I trying to learn hebrew... since 10 years!) If you mean that they are unnecessary and only make the learning even harder, then you are correct! OK, I will stop immediatly to understand the . :-) Thanks, Greetings and nice Day Michelle Konzack Systemadministrator Tamay Dogan Network Debian GNU/Linux Consultant -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant # Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 50, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi 0033/6/6192519367100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) signature.pgp Description: Digital signature
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
Dotan Cohen wrote: Yes, the .. are pointless (pun intended). Well, they do have a purpose, but they are not everyday essentials. Arabic speakers feel very comfortable speaking Hebrew, I should imagine that Farsi is similar. Not really, Arabic and Hebrew both belong to the Semitc family of languages. Farsi, on the other hand, despite being written with a similar alphabet to Arabic, belongs to the Indo-European family (which incidentally is the same one that English belongs to), so the languages are quite different. -- I owe the government $3400 in taxes. So I sent them two hammers and a toilet seat. -- Michael McShane Eduardo M KALINOWSKI [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://move.to/hpkb -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On Sun, Feb 10, 2008 at 07:26:30PM +, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: On Sun, Feb 10, 2008 at 09:09:55PM +0200, Dotan Cohen wrote: No. I have no need for Arabic, really, I was just checking how Arabic is displayed on the console for Ron Johnson. I do have need for Hebrew, however, and typing it on the console comes out LTR. I would like to get libfribidi working. Try mlterm . (The verb try is appropriate here, as mlterm is a bit buggy). I don't know what you mean, I've been using mlterm for more than a year now (for my simpler needs) without any problems. Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
Michelle Konzack wrote: Here is nothing moved. If I have messages I am not interested in (mostly spam) I hit d and then if I change the mailbox OR do a shift4 the are immediatly erased from the mailfolder. And? See here spam gets sent to the spam folder where S-A gets to chew on them so just deleting is rarely an option. I can also set TBird to expunge when leaving a folder and not use a trash folder, however, since I *like* the option of a trash folder for the rare times I mistakenly delete something (like this message) that I meant to reply to I can just dig it out and reply to it. And even if I activate the TRASH folder option, the files are moved in one time and very fast. That's the problem. I described exactly what mutt is doing. I even have a screencast of mutt trashing 46 message and taking several factors longer than TBird to trash 1600 messages. It's because mutt is DOWNLOADING every message, by itself, and then UPLOADING it to the server in the trash folder. However in 5 minutes I found out that the IMAP protocol has a COPY command that takes a range of messages and the folder to copy to. I'd bet cold hard cash that TBird is marking the messages as deleted (as it should) and then issuing a COPY 1 1600 ~/Trash and letting the server do the heavy lifting. If you think a 128Kb DSL link is faster at moving [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~/Mail} ls -l Trash -rw--- 1 grey shared 20030517 2008-02-11 22:46 Trash ...about 1Gb of mail (3500 messages, I trash 1600, so call it about half) than the local disc you're sorely mistaken. Would you like to see the screencast? -- Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream? PGP Key: 1FC01004 | And dream I do... ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
Am 2008-02-06 15:26:55, schrieb Steve Lamb: Joe wrote: So why are you doing it differently in Mutt than in TBird? Jut hit 't' on each message you want deleted then use tag-prefix to delete them all ';' applies the next command to all tagged messages so you hit ';' then 'd'. Simple. Where did I say *I* was not marking multiple messages and deleting them at once. I quite clearly said *IT* will copy the first message, delete, then move to the second to copy, then delete, and so on. Here is nothing moved. If I have messages I am not interested in (mostly spam) I hit d and then if I change the mailbox OR do a shift4 the are immediatly erased from the mailfolder. And even if I activate the TRASH folder option, the files are moved in one time and very fast. Thanks, Greetings and nice Day Michelle Konzack Systemadministrator Tamay Dogan Network Debian GNU/Linux Consultant -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant # Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 50, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi 0033/6/6192519367100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) signature.pgp Description: Digital signature
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
Am 2008-02-07 19:40:49, schrieb Dotan Cohen: Could be. I'd like to hear from Arabic users how console scripts are handled? On my machine Hebrew is reversed in the console. If someone could enlighten me as to how to install new locales (I've googled and cannot figure it out) then I'll try it and report back. dpkg-reconfigure locales Thanks, Greetings and nice Day Michelle Konzack Systemadministrator Tamay Dogan Network Debian GNU/Linux Consultant -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant # Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 50, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi 0033/6/6192519367100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) signature.pgp Description: Digital signature
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
Am 2008-02-06 12:28:57, schrieb Steve Lamb: The main problem that I saw is that on delete operations it does something that is insanely slower than TBird. For example, on TBird I can mark 25 messages as deleted, hit delete, and within about a second they are in the trash folder. This is, because TB does not delete the messages but mark them in the TOC files which is 10 times faster. And AFAIF if you leave the folder, it copies the files to the trash. And even now, the deleted files are not deleted and the folder compressed, which is done automaticaly by mutt be default. So on reopening the folder, it does not need to look at messages which are already deleted to skip them. Now extend that to maintaining a high volume list like Debian where one has 300 or so messages a day. 300 messages is 2.5 minutes of sitting idle. TBird would complete that oepration in, at most, 4-5 seconds. I dread to think what it would be like when I go on my monthly Exim user list purges of 2-3 thousand messages at once. Deleting 8000 messages (LKM) in TB takes arround 3 1/2 minutes, in mutt only 30 seconds. ~R ;d shift4 and then they are gone. I don't know what TBird is doing differently than mutt but it is painfully slow and utterly unusable. Since I am on over 120 mailinglists (incl. 76 debian) TB can not handel this traffic and the amount of messages (arround 7.98 million) which mutt handels nicely as MAILDIR. Thanks, Greetings and nice Day Michelle Konzack Systemadministrator Tamay Dogan Network Debian GNU/Linux Consultant -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant # Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 50, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi 0033/6/6192519367100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) signature.pgp Description: Digital signature
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
Am 2008-02-08 15:13:38, schrieb Dotan Cohen: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ sudo dpkg-reconfigure locales Generating locales... en_AU.UTF-8... done en_BW.UTF-8... done en_CA.UTF-8... done en_DK.UTF-8... done en_GB.UTF-8... done en_HK.UTF-8... done en_IE.UTF-8... done en_IN.UTF-8... done en_NZ.UTF-8... done en_PH.UTF-8... done en_SG.UTF-8... done en_US.UTF-8... done en_ZA.UTF-8... done en_ZW.UTF-8... done he_IL.UTF-8... up-to-date Generation complete. [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ Do you have used locale-purge? Then all other locales are removed and you have to reinstall locales with apt-get --reinstall locales But before you should assure, that dpkg-reconfigure debhelper is set at least to normal or if you want to control more to low. Thanks, Greetings and nice Day Michelle Konzack Systemadministrator Tamay Dogan Network Debian GNU/Linux Consultant -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant # Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 50, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi 0033/6/6192519367100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) signature.pgp Description: Digital signature
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
Am 2008-02-07 08:20:53, schrieb Ron Johnson: On 02/07/08 07:29, Dotan Cohen wrote: There are still the same amount of letters, in fact, when typing Arabic one does not pay attention to the way the letters flow into one another. The OS does that part automatically assuming that a supportive font is installed. Interesting. But it seems to make console apps difficult. If the console app is using libfribidi (as I use it) and the right console font is installed then you can read farsi (my mother language) arabic and hebrew in mutt and of cource from Right-To-Left (RTL). Hebrew, on the other hand, has final letters that are used only on the end of words, like capital letters in English at the beginning of sentences. And like English capitals, the user must specify that [s]he wants a final letter with the appropriate key. Being how there are only five of those (in addition to 22 regular Hebrew letters) the alphabet the becomes 27 letters: only one more than English. And farsi has 4 letters more then arabic (24=28) Also interesting. :-) What about the dots. Is that just a figment of misunderstanding? The dots are brain-crackers... (I trying to learn hebrew... since 10 years!) Thanks, Greetings and nice Day Michelle Konzack Systemadministrator Tamay Dogan Network Debian GNU/Linux Consultant -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant # Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 50, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi 0033/6/6192519367100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) signature.pgp Description: Digital signature
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On 09/02/2008, Michelle Konzack [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If the console app is using libfribidi (as I use it) and the right console font is installed then you can read farsi (my mother language) arabic and hebrew in mutt and of cource from Right-To-Left (RTL). Thanks for the tip, Michelle. Tell me, how does one configure Konsole to use it? It can be seen here that libfribidi is installed, yet the Hebrew that looks fine when pasted in Firefox is in fact displayed reversed in Konsole: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ sudo apt-get install libfribidi0 Reading package lists... Done Building dependency tree Reading state information... Done libfribidi0 is already the newest version. 0 משודרגים, 0 מותקנים חדשים, 0 יוסרו ו-19 לא ישודרגו. [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ And farsi has 4 letters more then arabic (24=28) I just looked at the Arabic alphabet, and all 28 of the letters look familiar to me: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_alphabet At least in Israel, we use 28 Arabic letters. What about the dots. Is that just a figment of misunderstanding? The dots are brain-crackers... (I trying to learn hebrew... since 10 years!) If you mean that they are unnecessary and only make the learning even harder, then you are correct! Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On 09/02/2008, Michelle Konzack [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do you have used locale-purge? Then all other locales are removed and you have to reinstall locales with apt-get --reinstall locales But before you should assure, that dpkg-reconfigure debhelper is set at least to normal or if you want to control more to low. That seems a bit dangerous for my daily driver, so I did an experiment. I copied שלום from Firefox into Konsole, and it displayed backwards as I would should it have been program output. Then I copied سلا (that should be salam, but I don't know why I can't paste the Mem at the end) to Konsole as well. Sure enough, the Shin was to the left, but interestingly the L-Aleph was properly connected! Then another Aleph to the right of that. There was no Mem in Konsole, either, I cannot seem to copy that critter. So I think that the knowledge of whether or not Arabic is displayed in connected characters in the console is answered. In broken LTR implementations, the letters are shown as if they are all by themselves. Special combinations, such as LA, have the Lamed replaced with the combined letter glyph, and then the real second letter after (to the right of) it. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On Sun, Feb 10, 2008 at 09:09:55PM +0200, Dotan Cohen wrote: No. I have no need for Arabic, really, I was just checking how Arabic is displayed on the console for Ron Johnson. I do have need for Hebrew, however, and typing it on the console comes out LTR. I would like to get libfribidi working. Try mlterm . (The verb try is appropriate here, as mlterm is a bit buggy). -- Tzafrir Cohen | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's [EMAIL PROTECTED] || best ICQ# 16849754 || friend -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On 10/02/2008, Micaela Gallerini [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2008/2/10, Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: That seems a bit dangerous for my daily driver, so I did an experiment. I copied שלום from Firefox into Konsole, and it displayed backwards as I would should it have been program output. Then I copied سلا (that should be salam, but I don't know why I can't paste the Mem at the end) to Konsole as well. Sure enough, the Shin was to the left, but interestingly the L-Aleph was properly connected! Then another Aleph to the right of that. There was no Mem in Konsole, either, I cannot seem to copy that critter. good evening, I have two stupid question, I know, but...:P if you tried to setting the keyboard with arabic language? therefore, add the arabic language and change the language of console when you write? No. I have no need for Arabic, really, I was just checking how Arabic is displayed on the console for Ron Johnson. I do have need for Hebrew, however, and typing it on the console comes out LTR. I would like to get libfribidi working. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
2008/2/10, Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: That seems a bit dangerous for my daily driver, so I did an experiment. I copied שלום from Firefox into Konsole, and it displayed backwards as I would should it have been program output. Then I copied سلا (that should be salam, but I don't know why I can't paste the Mem at the end) to Konsole as well. Sure enough, the Shin was to the left, but interestingly the L-Aleph was properly connected! Then another Aleph to the right of that. There was no Mem in Konsole, either, I cannot seem to copy that critter. good evening, I have two stupid question, I know, but...:P if you tried to setting the keyboard with arabic language? therefore, add the arabic language and change the language of console when you write? regards, -- Stupid is who don't ask no more Rashna Micaela Gallerini
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
2008/2/10, Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: No. I have no need for Arabic, really, I was just checking how Arabic is displayed on the console for Ron Johnson. I do have need for Hebrew, however, and typing it on the console comes out LTR. I would like to get libfribidi working. every writing program uses your keyboard settings that you run at the precise moment when you write. If you haven't enable keyboard with arabic language will not be able to write from right to left in any case, even copy and pasting the phrase elsewhere. and use the other suggest...^^ -- The stypidity is a constant of the humans Rashna Micaela Gallerini -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On 10/02/2008, Tzafrir Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, Feb 10, 2008 at 09:09:55PM +0200, Dotan Cohen wrote: No. I have no need for Arabic, really, I was just checking how Arabic is displayed on the console for Ron Johnson. I do have need for Hebrew, however, and typing it on the console comes out LTR. I would like to get libfribidi working. Try mlterm . (The verb try is appropriate here, as mlterm is a bit buggy). Nice, Hebrew is displayed RTL. But I'm not about to give up Konsole, especially for known-buggy software. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On 08/02/2008, s. keeling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: handled? On my machine Hebrew is reversed in the console. If someone could enlighten me as to how to install new locales (I've googled and cannot figure it out) then I'll try it and report back. As root, dpkg-reconfigure locales gives me a curses based chooser. Toggle on the ones you want, and it'll generate them. [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ sudo dpkg-reconfigure locales Generating locales... en_AU.UTF-8... done en_BW.UTF-8... done en_CA.UTF-8... done en_DK.UTF-8... done en_GB.UTF-8... done en_HK.UTF-8... done en_IE.UTF-8... done en_IN.UTF-8... done en_NZ.UTF-8... done en_PH.UTF-8... done en_SG.UTF-8... done en_US.UTF-8... done en_ZA.UTF-8... done en_ZW.UTF-8... done he_IL.UTF-8... up-to-date Generation complete. [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ No choice. Thanks for the interesting discussion. I'd not an inkling that Cyrillic arrived that way, and the mechanics of ME languages were pretty much dark here before this. :-) There is an excellent (but heated) discussion of Muslim faith and tolerance going on at /. right now. You might find it interesting: http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/02/07/1651256 Grep my username dotancohen there. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
[OT] Re: What am I missing without mutt?
Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 08/02/2008, s. keeling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: handled? On my machine Hebrew is reversed in the console. If someone could enlighten me as to how to install new locales (I've googled and cannot figure it out) then I'll try it and report back. As root, dpkg-reconfigure locales gives me a curses based chooser. Toggle on the ones you want, and it'll generate them. [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ sudo dpkg-reconfigure locales Generating locales... en_AU.UTF-8... done ... Generation complete. [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ No choice. I'm just guessing; wizards are welcome to chime in; add -plow to the mix. Alternatively, you and I may be using different interfaces (debconf, ...). Thanks for the interesting discussion. I'd not an inkling that There is an excellent (but heated) discussion of Muslim faith and tolerance going on at /. right now. You might find it interesting: http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/02/07/1651256 Grep my username dotancohen there. I have it open, but haven't looked at it yet. Reply off-list later. -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*)http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html Linux Counter #80292 - -http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.htmlPlease, don't Cc: me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On 06/02/2008, Tzafrir Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I use display_filter=bidiv - that is, pipe the message through bidiv before displaying it. Editing Hebrew requires some adjustments in vim (or whatever editor you use) to display reversed. Thanks, Tzafir. Mind sharing those VIM hacks with me? I find myself using VIM more and more, but not for Hebrew. Mostly for fooling around in python, bash scripts, and php. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On 06/02/2008, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: However, I vehemently disagree that email should be ascii. This is But that's how the US maintains it's hegemony over the Internet... Well, that and the fact that (compared to calligraphic, pictographic hieroglyphic languages) Greco-Latin alphabets are small, simple, regularized, easy to print, and a perfect basis for extensible vocabulary. Greek is not in ASCII, and Hebrew, Arabic, Russian, and all the European languages that have modified Latin scripts are just as small (Hebrew is smaller), simple (Arabic is simpler), regularized (if you mean that there is only a small, repeating set of symbols), easy to print (unless you have a ball-hammer printer), and are perfect basi (sp?) for extensible vocabulary. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 02/07/08 04:44, Dotan Cohen wrote: On 06/02/2008, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: However, I vehemently disagree that email should be ascii. This is But that's how the US maintains it's hegemony over the Internet... Well, that and the fact that (compared to calligraphic, pictographic hieroglyphic languages) Greco-Latin alphabets are small, simple, regularized, easy to print, and a perfect basis for extensible vocabulary. Greek is not in ASCII, Never said it was. and Hebrew, Arabic, Russian, and all the Russian derives from Greek. Note that I specified Greco-Latin. European languages that have modified Latin scripts are just as small (Hebrew is smaller), simple (Arabic is simpler), regularized (if you mean that there is only a small, repeating set of symbols), easy to print (unless you have a ball-hammer printer), and are perfect basi (sp?) for extensible vocabulary. With the semitic languages, the problem I see is that one letter can flow under another letter, and dots here and there change the meaning of the letter. - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA PETA - People Eating Tasty Animals -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHqv3rS9HxQb37XmcRAow6AKDVK5G4tp0tE2obpzj0Z9WJT3M+PACgjMGt 0LkYYk/gbnhlApn9v+HxXFA= =tTh6 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On 07/02/2008, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: However, I vehemently disagree that email should be ascii. This is But that's how the US maintains it's hegemony over the Internet... Well, that and the fact that (compared to calligraphic, pictographic hieroglyphic languages) Greco-Latin alphabets are small, simple, regularized, easy to print, and a perfect basis for extensible vocabulary. Greek is not in ASCII, Never said it was. and Hebrew, Arabic, Russian, and all the Russian derives from Greek. Russian is Cyrillic, which is in fact of Greek and Hebrew origin. Not surprising since it was invented to spread Christianity, and those are the languages of the Original and New Testaments. Note that I specified Greco-Latin. Greco refers to Greek, no? Or is there some Greek speaking culture that uses Latin letters? I've never heard of them. European languages that have modified Latin scripts are just as small (Hebrew is smaller), simple (Arabic is simpler), regularized (if you mean that there is only a small, repeating set of symbols), easy to print (unless you have a ball-hammer printer), and are perfect basi (sp?) for extensible vocabulary. With the semitic languages, the problem I see is that one letter can flow under another letter, and dots here and there change the meaning of the letter. In Arabic, most letters combinations flow into one another as does cursive script in Russian and English. There are still the same amount of letters, in fact, when typing Arabic one does not pay attention to the way the letters flow into one another. The OS does that part automatically assuming that a supportive font is installed. Hebrew, on the other hand, has final letters that are used only on the end of words, like capital letters in English at the beginning of sentences. And like English capitals, the user must specify that [s]he wants a final letter with the appropriate key. Being how there are only five of those (in addition to 22 regular Hebrew letters) the alphabet the becomes 27 letters: only one more than English. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On 07/02/2008, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe Greco-Latin was the wrong way to write what I meant. A longer, but hopefully clearer, method would be alphabets of Greek and Latin descent. Not to continue this perpetually, but I think that you mean Latin decent. Although, technically speaking, Latin is in fact of Greek decent. However no Greek letters are in ASCII (the original point of the subthread). Even Greek glyphs that look like Latin glyphs are different codepoints. In Arabic, most letters combinations flow into one another as does cursive script in Russian and English. But Western alphabets also have print script. Do semitic languages have print script? In the sense that a print script has no connected letters? Then Hebrew does (it's the only way to write Hebrew), but Arabic does not. As each letter in Arabic does have a by itself' form I suppose that one could write all their letters that way (after all, that is how it is typed), however I do not know if that is considered correct or not. Certainly there are Arabic speakers here who could enlighten us? There are still the same amount of letters, in fact, when typing Arabic one does not pay attention to the way the letters flow into one another. The OS does that part automatically assuming that a supportive font is installed. Interesting. But it seems to make console apps difficult. Could be. I'd like to hear from Arabic users how console scripts are handled? On my machine Hebrew is reversed in the console. If someone could enlighten me as to how to install new locales (I've googled and cannot figure it out) then I'll try it and report back. What about the dots. Is that just a figment of misunderstanding? The dots in Hebrew are optional. They indicate pronunciation, and are not used in everyday reading and writing. In fact, the only time they are seen is in religious texts and texts intended for those learning Hebrew. Sometimes, when writing a foreign word that must be pronounced correctly, they are used, but not often. In Arabic, the dots do change letters, so they are not optional strictly speaking. The dots are always present on signs and in print. However, in writing, I think that they are often eliminated. Although I don't really have much experience with handwritten Arabic, so I'm very possibly wrong in that regard. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On Thu, Feb 07, 2008 at 06:47:39AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 02/07/08 04:44, Dotan Cohen wrote: On 06/02/2008, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: However, I vehemently disagree that email should be ascii. This is But that's how the US maintains it's hegemony over the Internet... Well, that and the fact that (compared to calligraphic, pictographic hieroglyphic languages) Greco-Latin alphabets are small, simple, regularized, easy to print, and a perfect basis for extensible vocabulary. Greek is not in ASCII, Never said it was. and Hebrew, Arabic, Russian, and all the Russian derives from Greek. Note that I specified Greco-Latin. Russian is written in a script that was originally derived from Greek. Latin was originally derevied from Greek. But things have changed over time. For instance, even modern Greek is not the same as ancient Greek. The Greek letters were derived from ancient Israely / Phenician letters. Though the modern (anything in the last 2000 or so) uses a somewhat diffrent script (but still from the same origin). Arabic is also derived from there. The fact that one script is based on another does not mean you can write them using the same characters. You may be familiar with the Hebrew Aleph (as in Aleph 0, א). The ancient Hebrew form of it was something a bit more similar to the Greek Alpha, though rotated. And then you have the Latin 'A'. Four different letters. Written differently. From the same origin. And the Arabic Alif is even completely different. -- Tzafrir Cohen | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's [EMAIL PROTECTED] || best ICQ# 16849754 || friend -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 02/07/08 07:29, Dotan Cohen wrote: On 07/02/2008, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: However, I vehemently disagree that email should be ascii. This is But that's how the US maintains it's hegemony over the Internet... Well, that and the fact that (compared to calligraphic, pictographic hieroglyphic languages) Greco-Latin alphabets are small, simple, regularized, easy to print, and a perfect basis for extensible vocabulary. Greek is not in ASCII, Never said it was. and Hebrew, Arabic, Russian, and all the Russian derives from Greek. Russian is Cyrillic, Knew that... which is in fact of Greek and Hebrew origin. Not Didn't know that... surprising since it was invented to spread Christianity, and those are the languages of the Original and New Testaments. Note that I specified Greco-Latin. Greco refers to Greek, no? Or is there some Greek speaking culture that uses Latin letters? I've never heard of them. Maybe Greco-Latin was the wrong way to write what I meant. A longer, but hopefully clearer, method would be alphabets of Greek and Latin descent. European languages that have modified Latin scripts are just as small (Hebrew is smaller), simple (Arabic is simpler), regularized (if you mean that there is only a small, repeating set of symbols), easy to print (unless you have a ball-hammer printer), and are perfect basi (sp?) for extensible vocabulary. With the semitic languages, the problem I see is that one letter can flow under another letter, and dots here and there change the meaning of the letter. In Arabic, most letters combinations flow into one another as does cursive script in Russian and English. But Western alphabets also have print script. Do semitic languages have print script? There are still the same amount of letters, in fact, when typing Arabic one does not pay attention to the way the letters flow into one another. The OS does that part automatically assuming that a supportive font is installed. Interesting. But it seems to make console apps difficult. Hebrew, on the other hand, has final letters that are used only on the end of words, like capital letters in English at the beginning of sentences. And like English capitals, the user must specify that [s]he wants a final letter with the appropriate key. Being how there are only five of those (in addition to 22 regular Hebrew letters) the alphabet the becomes 27 letters: only one more than English. Also interesting. What about the dots. Is that just a figment of misunderstanding? - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA PETA - People Eating Tasty Animals -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHqxPFS9HxQb37XmcRAmsUAJ9Gjabgh6gn55Eo1tY4UD8Zop+VrgCeOURL Fa9Z9ZGmikGTruxTvwY+ZTc= =2sqR -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 02/07/08 11:40, Dotan Cohen wrote: On 07/02/2008, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe Greco-Latin was the wrong way to write what I meant. A longer, but hopefully clearer, method would be alphabets of Greek and Latin descent. Not to continue this perpetually, but I think that you mean Latin decent. Although, technically speaking, Latin is in fact of Greek decent. However no Greek letters are in ASCII (the original point of the subthread). Even Greek glyphs that look like Latin glyphs are different codepoints. No, I meant Greek Latin, since I wanted to include Cyrillic in the dicussion. And yes, I understand that *ASCII* is only limited to western alphabets. Specifically, American English. [snip] What about the dots. Is that just a figment of misunderstanding? The dots in Hebrew are optional. They indicate pronunciation, and are not used in everyday reading and writing. In fact, the only time they are seen is in religious texts and texts intended for those learning Hebrew. Sometimes, when writing a foreign word that must be pronounced correctly, they are used, but not often. In Arabic, the dots do change letters, so they are not optional strictly speaking. The dots are always present on signs and in print. However, in writing, I think that they are often eliminated. Although I don't really have much experience with handwritten Arabic, so I'm very possibly wrong in that regard. Interesting. - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA PETA - People Eating Tasty Animals -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHq33BS9HxQb37XmcRAj//AKCACVAacqtMtYcf0Uq2w6zv7kNxbACfdSBo ChipESit6+10h86CFz2LEKI= =NyGz -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: handled? On my machine Hebrew is reversed in the console. If someone could enlighten me as to how to install new locales (I've googled and cannot figure it out) then I'll try it and report back. As root, dpkg-reconfigure locales gives me a curses based chooser. Toggle on the ones you want, and it'll generate them. Thanks for the interesting discussion. I'd not an inkling that Cyrillic arrived that way, and the mechanics of ME languages were pretty much dark here before this. :-) -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*)http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html Linux Counter #80292 - -http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.htmlPlease, don't Cc: me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On Wed, Feb 06, 2008 at 05:27:50AM +0100, s. keeling wrote:
Although I'm a recent convert to mutt, let me blow the horn for Claws (aka
sylpheed-claws-gtk2 on sarge).
Mutt handles any standard form of mail box format,
Claws is only good with MH folders and IMAP, but it can import mbox.
Supposedly it can do Maildir with a plugin, but I installed the plugin and
didn't see any difference.
Claws doesn't do HTML, period (which may be part of the reason for its
snappiness, because i doesn't have to load a bloated HTML rendering engine).
The guis, in my experience, save in their own format (If you let them?
Configurable?),
I'm not aware of any GUI MUAs that save in a non-standard format, except of
course meta-information. Not that I'm aware of too many.
My text (English) is ASCII.
Mine (usually) is UTF-8, and that's it.
For me, it's:
ISP -- fetchmail -- {exim,procmail+bogofilter} -- mutt -- exim -- ISP
Exactly the same here. It's funny--before I came to mutt I let Claws handle
the MTA parts of that chain, and I always hated half the app freezing up
during mail fetching and sending (to be fair, Claws does a pretty good job
of backgrounding some of those tasks). But for the rare occasions when I
still use Claws now I've gotten rid of all that and only let Claws access my
Mail tree and the local SMTP server, and by golly, it is FAST.
Mutt does its job well. It does expect you to pet it regularly in the
beginning, and from time to time from there on. It's aptly named.
Using mutt is a hobby unto itself. But a satisfying one. My next hobby is
going to be vim, although I'm quite fond of joe.
--D.
signature.asc
Description: Digital signature
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On Wed, Feb 06, 2008 at 09:54:03AM +0200, Dotan Cohen wrote: On 06/02/2008, Tzafrir Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you managed to see the letters in Dotan's signature, you probably don't have a problem with UTF-8. Tzafir, were the letters displayed backwards? In the mutt I installed this week, I could type and read in Hebrew, but it was all left to right. Mail sent from Mutt, although LTR in Mutt, did display fine (RTL) in Thunderbird. I use display_filter=bidiv - that is, pipe the message through bidiv before displaying it. Editing Hebrew requires some adjustments in vim (or whatever editor you use) to display reversed. -- Tzafrir Cohen | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's [EMAIL PROTECTED] || best ICQ# 16849754 || friend -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Re: What am I missing without mutt?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 02/06/08 00:33, s. keeling wrote: Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 02/05/08 22:27, s. keeling wrote: Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 05/02/2008, BartlebyScrivener [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Feb 4, 5:20 pm, Steve Lamb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It all depends on the work habits of the individual user. Well, you can say that about anything, right? The OP asked what he was missing, so he's soliciting the opinions of people with different work habits. Exactly. I asked because I'm certain that there are those with more experience and more efficient workflows than myself. So I ask. I come from the dark ages. For me, it's important that the tools I use write files that anything can deal with, not just the app which created them. Mutt handles any standard form of mail box format, including on_some_other_server(don't much care how), aka. imap. The guis, in my experience, save in their own format (If you let them? That's just not true. Well, ok, it's *partially* true: Outlook stores mail in a But Netscape and it's descendants all use mbox as the native format, As you're well aware :-), Lookout! doesn't count here. I was thinking tbird. I recently tried to help a noob slurp in his old tbird mails. Are you saying that data file was mbox?!? It looked binary to me. The folder itself is mbox, but subsidiary data (I think they are indexed files to help NS quickly display huge mbox files in thread mode) is some weird abortion. Delete the .msf files and when you next restart NS it will auto- regenerate them. Displaying threaded emails on screen will be paused until NS can scan the mbox file and build the .msf file. $ pwd /home/me/.mozilla-thunderbird/amkrqh06.default/Mail/Local Folders In this directory, files like Sent are in mbox format. $ ls -l total 84 - -rw--- 1 me me 0 Jan 3 13:57 Drafts - -rw-r--r-- 1 me me 1725 Feb 6 06:48 Drafts.msf - -rw--- 1 me me 0 Jun 17 2007 Inbox - -rw-r--r-- 1 me me 1847 Feb 6 06:48 Inbox.msf - -rw-r--r-- 1 me me 1290 Dec 11 2006 Junk.msf - -rw--- 1 me me 40656 Jan 27 03:51 Sent - -rw-r--r-- 1 me me 3283 Feb 6 06:48 Sent.msf - -rw-r--r-- 1 me me 1202 Mar 4 2007 Templates.msf - -rw--- 1 me me 0 Jan 3 13:57 Trash - -rw-r--r-- 1 me me 1524 Feb 6 06:48 Trash.msf - -rw--- 1 me me 0 Oct 10 06:47 Unsent Messages - -rw-r--r-- 1 me me 2165 Feb 6 06:49 Unsent Messages.msf - -rw--- 1 me me 0 Oct 19 2006 ham - -rw-r--r-- 1 me me 1512 Feb 6 06:48 ham.msf - -rw--- 1 me me25 Jan 13 01:34 msgFilterRules.dat - -rw--- 1 me me 0 Oct 19 2006 spam - -rw-r--r-- 1 me me 1830 Feb 6 06:48 spam.msf - -rw--- 1 me me 0 Jan 3 13:57 temp - -rw-r--r-- 1 me me 1728 Feb 6 06:48 temp.msf PETA - People Eating Tasty Animals ACK! - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA PETA - People Eating Tasty Animals -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHqa5JS9HxQb37XmcRAtXGAKDKv08d9aYght6sdzR6l0R7dwUvXgCg7Xx8 O3ai+87jAvPHb2bGs7vVyDk= =ohSm -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 02/06/08 00:13, s. keeling wrote: John Hasler [EMAIL PROTECTED]: s. keeling writes: Mutt handles any standard form of mail box format, including on_some_other_server(don't much care how), aka. imap. Internet Message Access Protocol is a protocol, not a file format. Pedant. Thanks. Not pedantry You've been around long enough to know that the access method is independent of the storage method. Some IMAP servers (like uw-imap) store folders in mbox format, some (like courier-imap) in Maildir, and some (like dovecot) in either. And then there is Exchange Server, which has it's own proprietary storage format. And $DEITY only knows how Google stores gmail data. - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA PETA - People Eating Tasty Animals -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHqbAwS9HxQb37XmcRAt4WAKDsacbP42nxrH7GrXQLqRLJnzhg/ACeLDnu zdGZ/vBOG1yRS1cn0uAnUKo= =Uxnh -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 02/06/08 00:43, Kelly Clowers wrote: On Feb 5, 2008 8:27 PM, s. keeling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: email was intended to be ASCII (or something discernable as it), and we have MIME attachments to deal with the rest. I don't need or want anything more than that from email. Apologies to those (the rest of the Universe) for which ASCII is inappropriate. For me, email is text. My text (English) is ASCII. I agree that email should be text, not html, and that it should be saved in a standard format (but which one? All mbox varieties have problems, MH format has problems, and Maildir and Maildir++ have problems). However, I vehemently disagree that email should be ascii. This is But that's how the US maintains it's hegemony over the Internet... Well, that and the fact that (compared to calligraphic, pictographic hieroglyphic languages) Greco-Latin alphabets are small, simple, regularized, easy to print, and a perfect basis for extensible vocabulary. 2008 and the planet is more united than it has ever been. Unicode, particularly utf-8 should be and is the new standard. Users of the Latin alphabet, and especially English speakers, have no reason to complain since utf-8 is backwards compatible with ascii. Any slight disadvantages unicode might have are more than outweighed by the communication barriers it breaks down. - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA PETA - People Eating Tasty Animals -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHqbLnS9HxQb37XmcRAuFzAJ9PCfOPiP0KIPSuSCo2eTvpxM9SmQCgvcM+ bEUpl5JgtgAeLafyi4HiFw0= =YlDT -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On Feb 6, 2:40 am, Dan H. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My next hobby is going to be vim, In .muttrc: set editor=gvim -f And see, Efficient editing with vim: http://jmcpherson.org/editing.html rd http://dooling.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On Wed, Feb 06, 2008 at 06:37:27AM -0800, BartlebyScrivener wrote: In .muttrc: set editor=gvim -f That would be without the g, right? BTW, what's wrong with my setup? When I type :help, I get E433: No tags file E149: Sorry, no help for help.txt But: $ locate help.txt | grep vim /usr/share/vim/doc/help.txt Should the file help.txt be someplace else? Thanks for the tutorial link, I'll give it a try. --D. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On Feb 6, 10:00 am, Dan H. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: set editor=gvim -f That would be without the g, right? The g starts the gui version of vim, which I like. BTW, what's wrong with my setup? When I type :help, I get E433: No tags file E149: Sorry, no help for help.txt That's weird. What did you install? Vim-full? What do you get when you do :echo $VIMRUNTIME rd -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
Dan H.([EMAIL PROTECTED]) is reported to have said: On Wed, Feb 06, 2008 at 06:37:27AM -0800, BartlebyScrivener wrote: In .muttrc: set editor=gvim -f That would be without the g, right? BTW, what's wrong with my setup? When I type :help, I get E433: No tags file E149: Sorry, no help for help.txt But: $ locate help.txt | grep vim /usr/share/vim/doc/help.txt Should the file help.txt be someplace else? Thanks for the tutorial link, I'll give it a try. Add set helpfile=$VIMRUNTIME/doc/help.txt to your .vimrc file and :help will work. WT -- Never say OOPS! always say Ah, Interesting! ___ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
John Hasler wrote: s. keeling writes: Mutt handles any standard form of mail box format, including on_some_other_server(don't much care how), aka. imap. Internet Message Access Protocol is a protocol, not a file format. Not to mention mutt's IMAP implementation is less than stellar. I certainly wouldn't go around crowing about it. -- Steve Lamb -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
Dan H. wrote: Claws doesn't do HTML, period (which may be part of the reason for its snappiness, because i doesn't have to load a bloated HTML rendering engine). Huh? sylpheed-claws-dillo-viewer Wasn't that long ago it was not a plugin, it was base. -- Steve Lamb -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On Feb 6, 10:00 am, Dan H. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: BTW, what's wrong with my setup? If you have any other problems, the vim_use google group is hyperactive and very helpful. http://groups.google.com/group/vim_use Good luck, RD -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
Steve Lamb: Not to mention mutt's IMAP implementation is less than stellar. [...] I have read statements to that effect several times now but I don't really know where the problem lies. I know that mutt is mainly unmaintained now and that there are unfixed bugs (like the wrong reporting of unread mails per IMAP-mailbox). But are there general problems with the code like maintainability, incompatibilities or errors in the implementation of the IMAP protocol? J -- There is no justice in road accidents. [Agree] [Disagree] http://www.slowlydownward.com/NODATA/data_enter2.html signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
Jochen Schulz wrote: I have read statements to that effect several times now but I don't really know where the problem lies. I know that mutt is mainly unmaintained now and that there are unfixed bugs (like the wrong reporting of unread mails per IMAP-mailbox). But are there general problems with the code like maintainability, incompatibilities or errors in the implementation of the IMAP protocol? The main problem that I saw is that on delete operations it does something that is insanely slower than TBird. For example, on TBird I can mark 25 messages as deleted, hit delete, and within about a second they are in the trash folder. In mutt (as of, say, 4 months ago when I last tried) it will copy then delete message 1... then copy and delete message 2... then copy and delete message 3... Taking about 1/2 second each. So on a 25 message operation mutt will take 12 seconds to do what TBird does in no more than 2. Even worse is that is without network lag as the mutt operation was carried out on the server itself. Now extend that to maintaining a high volume list like Debian where one has 300 or so messages a day. 300 messages is 2.5 minutes of sitting idle. TBird would complete that oepration in, at most, 4-5 seconds. I dread to think what it would be like when I go on my monthly Exim user list purges of 2-3 thousand messages at once. I don't know what TBird is doing differently than mutt but it is painfully slow and utterly unusable. -- Steve Lamb -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On Wed, 06 Feb 2008 19:30:21 +0100, Steve Lamb wrote: John Hasler wrote: s. keeling writes: Mutt handles any standard form of mail box format, including on_some_other_server(don't much care how), aka. imap. Internet Message Access Protocol is a protocol, not a file format. Not to mention mutt's IMAP implementation is less than stellar. I certainly wouldn't go around crowing about it. huh? it works decently enough as well as some of the alternatives. -- Stephen Patterson :: [EMAIL PROTECTED] :: http://patter.mine.nu/ GPG: B416F0DE :: Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Don't be silly, Minnie. Who'd be walking round these cliffs with a gas oven? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On 12:28 Wed 06 Feb , Steve Lamb wrote: The main problem that I saw is that on delete operations it does something that is insanely slower than TBird. For example, on TBird I can mark 25 messages as deleted, hit delete, and within about a second they are in the trash folder. In mutt (as of, say, 4 months ago when I last tried) it will copy then delete message 1... then copy and delete message 2... then copy and delete message 3... Taking about 1/2 second each. So on a 25 message operation mutt will take 12 seconds to do what TBird does in no more than 2. Even worse is that is without network lag as the mutt operation was carried out on the server itself. So why are you doing it differently in Mutt than in TBird? Jut hit 't' on each message you want deleted then use tag-prefix to delete them all ';' applies the next command to all tagged messages so you hit ';' then 'd'. Simple. -- Regards, Joe -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On Feb 6, 2008, at 12:28 PM, Steve Lamb wrote: The main problem that I saw is that on delete operations it does something that is insanely slower than TBird. For example, on TBird I can mark 25 messages as deleted, hit delete, and within about a second they are in the trash folder. I think that's because TBird updates your view of the mailbox immediately, then continues the actual deletion in the background. I had it crash once right after I did a delete and when I opened the mailbox again, all those messages were magically resurrected. :) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
Joe wrote: On 12:28 Wed 06 Feb , Steve Lamb wrote: In mutt (as of, say, 4 months ago when I last tried) it will copy then delete message 1... then copy and delete message 2... then copy and delete message 3... Taking about 1/2 second each. So on a 25 message operation mutt will take 12 seconds to do what TBird does in no more than 2. Even worse is that is without network lag as the mutt operation was carried out on the server itself. So why are you doing it differently in Mutt than in TBird? Jut hit 't' on each message you want deleted then use tag-prefix to delete them all ';' applies the next command to all tagged messages so you hit ';' then 'd'. Simple. Where did I say *I* was not marking multiple messages and deleting them at once. I quite clearly said *IT* will copy the first message, delete, then move to the second to copy, then delete, and so on. -- Steve Lamb -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On 05/02/2008, BartlebyScrivener [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Feb 4, 4:20 pm, Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sure, for plain text OOo and Word are terrible tools. They are not meant for that purpose. However, when you need markup such as that for print documents, a word processor is a necessity. A necessity? Only if you don't know LaTeX. That's true. Though I've never been into kinky. But I think you see my point. For a text and keyboard person, mutt is much more efficient. To me using Thunderbird to send email is like trying to manage text with a word processor. To pick up on your analogy. Mutt is made for the purpose of managing and sending plain text emails. If that's what you want to do, then it's much more efficient and programmable than a gui email program like Thunderbird. I see what you are saying. Tell me, in mutt can I have several (5-6) compose messages open and switch between them and the main window that I'm copying / pasting from? Also, will mutt remember that when I write to [EMAIL PROTECTED] I need the From address to be [EMAIL PROTECTED], and when I write to [EMAIL PROTECTED] I need the From address to be [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those two features are necessary to my workwflow, and so far as I understand only GUI mail clients perform the former, while only Thunderbird (with an extension) can perform the latter. Thanks. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
Dotan Cohen:
I see what you are saying. Tell me, in mutt can I have several (5-6)
compose messages open and switch between them and the main window that
I'm copying / pasting from?
Not really. When editing messages, mutt invokes your editor and stays in
the background. There's no way to switch back. My kind-of-workaround is
to spawn another mutt (easy when using screen and having a keybinding
for that) and look up what I need. But I agree that this is a little bit
messy if you forget to mark mailboxes read-only ('%' on my system) when
opening them in several mutt instances at once.
Also, will mutt remember that when I write
to [EMAIL PROTECTED] I need the From address to be [EMAIL PROTECTED],
and when I write to [EMAIL PROTECTED] I need the From address to
be [EMAIL PROTECTED]
That's what the 'alternates' feature and (send|folderi)-hooks are for.
You can use 'alternates' to tell mutt which addresses you have and 'set
reverse_name' to automatically use the To-Address of the mail you are
replying to (if this address is one of your 'alternate' addresses). For
new messages you have to use hooks.
J.
--
If politics is the blind leading the blind, entertainment is the fucked-
up leading the hypnotised.
[Agree] [Disagree]
http://www.slowlydownward.com/NODATA/data_enter2.html
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Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On 05/02/2008, BartlebyScrivener [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Feb 4, 5:20 pm, Steve Lamb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It all depends on the work habits of the individual user. Well, you can say that about anything, right? The OP asked what he was missing, so he's soliciting the opinions of people with different work habits. Exactly. I asked because I'm certain that there are those with more experience and more efficient workflows than myself. So I ask. Just as while I am a vim devotee for programming Python I most certainly would not use it for creating documents fit for printing. Well, to me Vim can do almost anything, so I'd rather use it for programming, emailing, and writing books. I'll grant you that to draft a one-page memo to a colleague it's probably easiest to use OO or Word, but in this day and age you're probably going to send an email anyway, and not a Word doc. Trying to stick to the email topic, consider how much easier it is to grep the /Mail folder, or use Mutt's ~b search, instead of trying to figure out Thunderbird's clunky search interface. To use just one example. Although I don't need the search feature often, I agree that Tbird's implementation could use some work. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On Tue, Feb 05, 2008 at 10:01:16AM +0200, Dotan Cohen wrote: On 05/02/2008, BartlebyScrivener [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Feb 4, 4:20 pm, Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sure, for plain text OOo and Word are terrible tools. They are not meant for that purpose. However, when you need markup such as that for print documents, a word processor is a necessity. A necessity? Only if you don't know LaTeX. That's true. Though I've never been into kinky. But I think you see my point. For a text and keyboard person, mutt is much more efficient. To me using Thunderbird to send email is like trying to manage text with a word processor. To pick up on your analogy. Mutt is made for the purpose of managing and sending plain text emails. If that's what you want to do, then it's much more efficient and programmable than a gui email program like Thunderbird. I see what you are saying. Tell me, in mutt can I have several (5-6) compose messages open and switch between them and the main window that I'm copying / pasting from? Open 5, 6 different mutts? (Or alternatively, postpone a message and shift to another). Also, will mutt remember that when I write to [EMAIL PROTECTED] I need the From address to be [EMAIL PROTECTED], and when I write to [EMAIL PROTECTED] I need the From address to be [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those two features are necessary to my workwflow, and so far as I understand only GUI mail clients perform the former, while only Thunderbird (with an extension) can perform the latter. Yes, mutt can. And actually both points have already been raised in the course of the discussion. As well as the fact that you don't really get along with text-based clients. So I guess things begin to repeat themselves :-) -- Tzafrir Cohen | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's [EMAIL PROTECTED] || best ICQ# 16849754 || friend -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On Tue, Feb 05, 2008 at 10:01:16AM +0200, Dotan Cohen wrote: I see what you are saying. Tell me, in mutt can I have several (5-6) compose messages open and switch between them and the main window that I'm copying / pasting from? No, at least not in a single instance. Also, will mutt remember that when I write to [EMAIL PROTECTED] I need the From address to be [EMAIL PROTECTED], and when I write to [EMAIL PROTECTED] I need the From address to be [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can set all that with those omnipotent hooks, but no, mutt won't remember it in the sense that it will automatically keep doing it after you've done it once. Those two features are necessary to my workwflow, and so far as I understand only GUI mail clients perform the former, while only Thunderbird (with an extension) can perform the latter. Have you looked at Claws? It's amazing, and a ton faster than TB. I find it neater all around. Carries no HTML baggage with it whatsoever. --D. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On Tue, Feb 05, 2008 at 10:03:50AM +0200, Dotan Cohen wrote: On 05/02/2008, BartlebyScrivener [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Feb 4, 5:20 pm, Steve Lamb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It all depends on the work habits of the individual user. Well, you can say that about anything, right? The OP asked what he was missing, so he's soliciting the opinions of people with different work habits. Exactly. I asked because I'm certain that there are those with more experience and more efficient workflows than myself. So I ask. One big thing you miss by not running mutt, is the ability to run a MUA from a VT520 as I am doing at the moment. Unless anyone knows how to run X to a VT520 at 9600 baud. :) Doug. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
I see what you are saying. Tell me, in mutt can I have several (5-6) compose messages open and switch between them and the main window that I'm copying / pasting from? No. You can have several mutt windows open but it is CLI, no multiple windows from a single instance. Also, will mutt remember that when I write to [EMAIL PROTECTED] I need the From address to be [EMAIL PROTECTED], and when I write to [EMAIL PROTECTED] I need the From address to be [EMAIL PROTECTED] No. You'll need to be in specific folders and you'll have configure mutt for every single folder what address you want. Quite annoying since it has no concept of account-level inheritance. -- Steve Lamb -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 02/05/08 11:00, Steve Lamb wrote: I see what you are saying. Tell me, in mutt can I have several (5-6) compose messages open and switch between them and the main window that I'm copying / pasting from? No. You can have several mutt windows open but it is CLI, no multiple windows from a single instance. Also, will mutt remember that when I write to [EMAIL PROTECTED] I need the From address to be [EMAIL PROTECTED], and when I write to [EMAIL PROTECTED] I need the From address to be [EMAIL PROTECTED] No. You'll need to be in specific folders and you'll have configure mutt for every single folder what address you want. Quite annoying since it has no concept of account-level inheritance. I wonder if Alpine can do it? - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA PETA - People Eating Tasty Animals -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHqJm5S9HxQb37XmcRAvfbAJ9YgfJU5nzX2WeM9JhX0LIzA8ClrACdGIVF jWdMed71svNGycDl6OFLsWE= =8Blr -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On Tue, Feb 05, 2008 at 09:00:27AM -0800, Steve Lamb wrote: [...] Also, will mutt remember that when I write to [EMAIL PROTECTED] I need the From address to be [EMAIL PROTECTED], and when I write to [EMAIL PROTECTED] I need the From address to be [EMAIL PROTECTED] No. You'll need to be in specific folders and you'll have configure mutt for every single folder what address you want. Quite annoying since it has no concept of account-level inheritance. Not entirely accurate. This is what send-hook is for. If you look at the email address from which I am sending this, you'll notice that it is gsslist+debian@mydomain. For the mutt-users list, however, it is gsslist+mutt@mydomain. I have send-hooks configured to set my sending address automatically based on the destination address (as well as an fcc-save-hook for where the sent copy goes). I actually use m4 to manage my list subscriptions conveniently (though not beautifully), since I am on lots (over 50 at last count). For your particular needs, you can get away with a single send-hook for each outgoing email address, so it shouldn't be as big a deal. Steve Lamb --Greg -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
Steve Lamb said... Just as while I am a vim devotee for programming Python I most certainly would not use it for creating documents fit for printing. Yes, I know there's LaTeX, but vim + LaTeX does not work for me for writing Cool, another LaTeX + vim devotee that doesn't use that combination simultaneously. As a matter of interest, Steve, which editor do you use for writing with LaTex? -- Cheers, Marc -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
On 05/02/2008, BartlebyScrivener [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Feb 4, 5:20 pm, Steve Lamb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
It all depends on the work habits of the individual user.
Well, you can say that about anything, right? The OP asked what he was
missing, so he's soliciting the opinions of people with different work
habits.
Exactly. I asked because I'm certain that there are those with more
experience and more efficient workflows than myself. So I ask.
I come from the dark ages. For me, it's important that the tools I
use write files that anything can deal with, not just the app which
created them. Mutt handles any standard form of mail box format,
including on_some_other_server(don't much care how), aka. imap.
The guis, in my experience, save in their own format (If you let them?
Configurable?), though they too can do the on_some_other_server() trick.
However, I doubt `aptitude show grepmail` can handle tbird's format
(I could be mistaken), much less imap.
email was intended to be ASCII (or something discernable as it), and
we have MIME attachments to deal with the rest. I don't need or want
anything more than that from email. Apologies to those (the rest of
the Universe) for which ASCII is inappropriate. For me, email is
text. My text (English) is ASCII.
I see a lot of (to me) garbage in stuff others post which my clients
have trouble displaying as the poster intended, but I can usually make
enough sense of it in both reading and replying. Keeping it all in
standard formats all the way through eliminates many complex problems.
Ie., recovering your mail after catastrophic system failure.
For me, it's:
ISP -- fetchmail -- {exim,procmail+bogofilter} -- mutt -- exim -- ISP
Add in whatever editor you prefer, and whatever tools you want to
handle the MIME stuff (~/.mailcap). Mutt'll probably be able to do
what you want it to.
It's just an MUA. All it wants (or needs) to do is to show you the
result of a (behind the scenes) complex interaction, the details of
which are irrelevant (to it). Ensure other tools are working
correctly.
Mutt does its job well. It does expect you to pet it regularly in the
beginning, and from time to time from there on. It's aptly named.
Good dog, though. Enjoy.
--
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
(*)http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html Linux Counter #80292
- -http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.htmlPlease, don't Cc: me.
--
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Re: What am I missing without mutt?
Douglas A. Tutty [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Tue, Feb 05, 2008 at 10:03:50AM +0200, Dotan Cohen wrote: On 05/02/2008, BartlebyScrivener [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Feb 4, 5:20 pm, Steve Lamb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It all depends on the work habits of the individual user. Well, you can say that about anything, right? The OP asked what he was missing, so he's soliciting the opinions of people with different work habits. Exactly. I asked because I'm certain that there are those with more experience and more efficient workflows than myself. So I ask. One big thing you miss by not running mutt, is the ability to run a MUA from a VT520 as I am doing at the moment. Unless anyone knows how to run X to a VT520 at 9600 baud. :) Old B.C. comic strip: a) I can stick my left big toe in my right ear! b) Yeah, but who'd want to? -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*)http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html Linux Counter #80292 - -http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.htmlPlease, don't Cc: me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 02/05/08 22:27, s. keeling wrote: Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 05/02/2008, BartlebyScrivener [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Feb 4, 5:20 pm, Steve Lamb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It all depends on the work habits of the individual user. Well, you can say that about anything, right? The OP asked what he was missing, so he's soliciting the opinions of people with different work habits. Exactly. I asked because I'm certain that there are those with more experience and more efficient workflows than myself. So I ask. I come from the dark ages. For me, it's important that the tools I use write files that anything can deal with, not just the app which created them. Mutt handles any standard form of mail box format, including on_some_other_server(don't much care how), aka. imap. The guis, in my experience, save in their own format (If you let them? That's just not true. Well, ok, it's *partially* true: Outlook stores mail in a proprietary indexed format. But Netscape and it's descendants all use mbox as the native format, as does Evolution KMail. Sylpheed uses mh, which is also a standardized text format. The only non-standard bit about these mailers is the directory where they decide to store these mbox files. [snippage] - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA PETA - People Eating Tasty Animals -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHqUGPS9HxQb37XmcRAvKEAKDZMjlIiUr02cJSGAtIptYv7shUxgCg0Ok5 yOyCEeHCgIYqqDEZjC/Aww8= =1IMQ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
s. keeling writes: Mutt handles any standard form of mail box format, including on_some_other_server(don't much care how), aka. imap. Internet Message Access Protocol is a protocol, not a file format. -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On Feb 5, 2008 9:11 PM, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 02/05/08 22:27, s. keeling wrote: I come from the dark ages. For me, it's important that the tools I use write files that anything can deal with, not just the app which created them. Mutt handles any standard form of mail box format, including on_some_other_server(don't much care how), aka. imap. The guis, in my experience, save in their own format (If you let them? That's just not true. Well, ok, it's *partially* true: Outlook stores mail in a proprietary indexed format. But Netscape and it's descendants all use mbox as the native format, as does Evolution KMail. Sylpheed uses mh, which is also a standardized text format. The only non-standard bit about these mailers is the directory where they decide to store these mbox files. But there are four types of mbox, and Thunderbird and SeaMonkey use a variant of one of those (although TB3 will finally support maildir). Cheers, Kelly Clowers -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
John Hasler [EMAIL PROTECTED]: s. keeling writes: Mutt handles any standard form of mail box format, including on_some_other_server(don't much care how), aka. imap. Internet Message Access Protocol is a protocol, not a file format. Pedant. Thanks. -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*)http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html Linux Counter #80292 - -http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.htmlPlease, don't Cc: me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[OT] Re: What am I missing without mutt?
Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 02/05/08 22:27, s. keeling wrote: Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 05/02/2008, BartlebyScrivener [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Feb 4, 5:20 pm, Steve Lamb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It all depends on the work habits of the individual user. Well, you can say that about anything, right? The OP asked what he was missing, so he's soliciting the opinions of people with different work habits. Exactly. I asked because I'm certain that there are those with more experience and more efficient workflows than myself. So I ask. I come from the dark ages. For me, it's important that the tools I use write files that anything can deal with, not just the app which created them. Mutt handles any standard form of mail box format, including on_some_other_server(don't much care how), aka. imap. The guis, in my experience, save in their own format (If you let them? That's just not true. Well, ok, it's *partially* true: Outlook stores mail in a But Netscape and it's descendants all use mbox as the native format, As you're well aware :-), Lookout! doesn't count here. I was thinking tbird. I recently tried to help a noob slurp in his old tbird mails. Are you saying that data file was mbox?!? It looked binary to me. PETA - People Eating Tasty Animals ACK! -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*)http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html Linux Counter #80292 - -http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.htmlPlease, don't Cc: me. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On Feb 5, 2008 8:27 PM, s. keeling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: email was intended to be ASCII (or something discernable as it), and we have MIME attachments to deal with the rest. I don't need or want anything more than that from email. Apologies to those (the rest of the Universe) for which ASCII is inappropriate. For me, email is text. My text (English) is ASCII. I agree that email should be text, not html, and that it should be saved in a standard format (but which one? All mbox varieties have problems, MH format has problems, and Maildir and Maildir++ have problems). However, I vehemently disagree that email should be ascii. This is 2008 and the planet is more united than it has ever been. Unicode, particularly utf-8 should be and is the new standard. Users of the Latin alphabet, and especially English speakers, have no reason to complain since utf-8 is backwards compatible with ascii. Any slight disadvantages unicode might have are more than outweighed by the communication barriers it breaks down. Cheers, Kelly Clowers -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On Feb 5, 2008 10:33 PM, s. keeling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 02/05/08 22:27, s. keeling wrote: Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On 05/02/2008, BartlebyScrivener [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Feb 4, 5:20 pm, Steve Lamb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It all depends on the work habits of the individual user. Well, you can say that about anything, right? The OP asked what he was missing, so he's soliciting the opinions of people with different work habits. Exactly. I asked because I'm certain that there are those with more experience and more efficient workflows than myself. So I ask. I come from the dark ages. For me, it's important that the tools I use write files that anything can deal with, not just the app which created them. Mutt handles any standard form of mail box format, including on_some_other_server(don't much care how), aka. imap. The guis, in my experience, save in their own format (If you let them? That's just not true. Well, ok, it's *partially* true: Outlook stores mail in a But Netscape and it's descendants all use mbox as the native format, As you're well aware :-), Lookout! doesn't count here. I was thinking tbird. I recently tried to help a noob slurp in his old tbird mails. Are you saying that data file was mbox?!? It looked binary to me. Moz et al uses a modified mboxrd format. It shouldn't look binary, but it might look scary if you looked in the [folder name].msf file, instead of the plain [folder name] file. The msf file is some sort of extra file that Mozilla uses. It is in the (text) Mork format, which any Mozilla dev will admit is one of the worst things ever invented (which is why Mork and several other formats are being abandoned for sqlite). Cheers, Kelly Clowers -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On Tue, Feb 05, 2008 at 10:43:09PM -0800, Kelly Clowers wrote: On Feb 5, 2008 8:27 PM, s. keeling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: email was intended to be ASCII (or something discernable as it), and we have MIME attachments to deal with the rest. I don't need or want anything more than that from email. Apologies to those (the rest of the Universe) for which ASCII is inappropriate. For me, email is text. My text (English) is ASCII. I agree that email should be text, not html, and that it should be saved in a standard format (but which one? All mbox varieties have problems, MH format has problems, and Maildir and Maildir++ have problems). However, I vehemently disagree that email should be ascii. This is 2008 and the planet is more united than it has ever been. Unicode, particularly utf-8 should be and is the new standard. Users of the Latin alphabet, and especially English speakers, have no reason to complain since utf-8 is backwards compatible with ascii. Any slight disadvantages unicode might have are more than outweighed by the communication barriers it breaks down. If you managed to see the letters in Dotan's signature, you probably don't have a problem with UTF-8. Unfortunetly I can see the characters of chineese / korean spam in mutt as well (or with any other decent mail client of a recent version) And no - I can't read it. -- Tzafrir Cohen | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's [EMAIL PROTECTED] || best ICQ# 16849754 || friend -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On 06/02/2008, Tzafrir Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you managed to see the letters in Dotan's signature, you probably don't have a problem with UTF-8. Tzafir, were the letters displayed backwards? In the mutt I installed this week, I could type and read in Hebrew, but it was all left to right. Mail sent from Mutt, although LTR in Mutt, did display fine (RTL) in Thunderbird. Unfortunetly I can see the characters of chineese / korean spam in mutt as well (or with any other decent mail client of a recent version) And no - I can't read it. That's what counts! Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On Sun, Feb 03, 2008 at 07:09:42PM +0200, Dotan Cohen wrote: As a thunderbird user, what am I missing by not using mutt? As a recent convert, I can say: nothing. Although I'm coming from Clwas, which, as far as X apps go, is a lot more mutty than TB. --D. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
?? ?. wrote: Quoth Dotan Cohen: As a thunderbird user, what am I missing by not using mutt? Teach me, if it's a better client than I'd love to learn it. I'm not afraid of the CLI, and I'm not afraid of VI[M]. What you're missing? Tedious fetchmail/procmail/maildrop/exim/sendmail-configuration, 200-lines .muttrc... This is where it should've ended. Most of the rest of the list doesn't apply. Dotan, if you're happy with TBird, stick with it. If there's something you don't like about TBird, see if there's an extension that addresses it. About the only serious problem with TBird is that the documentation to write extensions is mired in it's Firefox roots. -- Steve C. Lamb | But who decides what they dream? PGP Key: 1FC01004 | And dream I do... ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On 04/02/2008, Steve Lamb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ?? ?. wrote: Quoth Dotan Cohen: As a thunderbird user, what am I missing by not using mutt? Teach me, if it's a better client than I'd love to learn it. I'm not afraid of the CLI, and I'm not afraid of VI[M]. What you're missing? Tedious fetchmail/procmail/maildrop/exim/sendmail-configuration, 200-lines .muttrc... This is where it should've ended. Most of the rest of the list doesn't apply. Dotan, if you're happy with TBird, stick with it. If there's something you don't like about TBird, see if there's an extension that addresses it. About the only serious problem with TBird is that the documentation to write extensions is mired in it's Firefox roots. I will look at other GUI apps (not mutt or pine) and see if I can find something that fits. Truth is, it will be hard to replace Tbird as I've only two gripes with it, yet there's many features (through extensions) that other mailers lack. A simple example is the ability to right- or left- align text. For Hebrew and Arabic users, this is a must. No other mailer provides that. And the Virtual Identity extension makes the From address of replies the To address of the original mail. It even saves which From address I use for each contact when writing new messages. Simply brilliant, and no other mailer provides that. Even though the relevant Kmail bug has been open for over two years. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On 04/02/2008, Tzafrir Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Feb 04, 2008 at 03:50:41PM +0200, Dotan Cohen wrote: I will look at other GUI apps (not mutt or pine) and see if I can find something that fits. Truth is, it will be hard to replace Tbird as I've only two gripes with it, yet there's many features (through extensions) that other mailers lack. A simple example is the ability to right- or left- align text. For Hebrew and Arabic users, this is a must. No other mailer provides that. In .muttrc: set display_filter=bidiv Though this is not for the index window. And the Virtual Identity extension makes the From address of replies the To address of the original mail. http://www.mutt.org/doc/devel/manual.html#alternates Nice. I meant that no other GUI email clients that I had tried had these features. Not Evolution, Sylpsheed[-claws], Kmail, or others. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
Op Mon, 4 Feb 2008 15:50:41 +0200 Dotan Cohen wrote: A simple example is the ability to right- or left- align text. For Hebrew and Arabic users, this is a must. No other mailer provides that. In Sylpheed I see your Hebrew text right aligned. And the Virtual Identity extension makes the From address of replies the To address of the original mail. In Sylpheed you can filter the messages to a folder depending on the To address, and specify an account (and its From address) to be used with this folder. For example, the messages from this list are filtered to a 'debian' folder; the From address of this message has been taken from my 'debian' account because I'm in the 'debian' folder. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On Mon, Feb 04, 2008 at 03:50:41PM +0200, Dotan Cohen wrote: I will look at other GUI apps (not mutt or pine) and see if I can find something that fits. Truth is, it will be hard to replace Tbird as I've only two gripes with it, yet there's many features (through extensions) that other mailers lack. A simple example is the ability to right- or left- align text. For Hebrew and Arabic users, this is a must. No other mailer provides that. In .muttrc: set display_filter=bidiv Though this is not for the index window. And the Virtual Identity extension makes the From address of replies the To address of the original mail. http://www.mutt.org/doc/devel/manual.html#alternates -- Tzafrir Cohen | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's [EMAIL PROTECTED] || best ICQ# 16849754 || friend -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On Feb 3, 12:00 pm, Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sounds great, but the only thing that really makes me interested is the full keyboard control, Which necessarily involves all of the advantages of using vim and all of the programmable aspects of Mutt. I used T-bird for years. Also used OOwriter and Word for years. But Vim (or Emacs, or whatever text editor you like) is a hundred times faster and more efficient than a point-and-click word processor, right? Same goes for Mutt vs. T-bird. Faster, totally programmable, and you get to compose emails in your favorite text editor. RD -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
BartlebyScrivener wrote: I used T-bird for years. Also used OOwriter and Word for years. But Vim (or Emacs, or whatever text editor you like) is a hundred times faster and more efficient than a point-and-click word processor, right? No. Same goes for Mutt vs. T-bird. Faster, totally programmable, and you get to compose emails in your favorite text editor. No. It all depends on the work habits of the individual user. There are many cases where mutt's 80s mentality gets in the way of efficient work on my desktop. Just as while I am a vim devotee for programming Python I most certainly would not use it for creating documents fit for printing. Yes, I know there's LaTeX, but vim + LaTeX does not work for me for writing just as OOWriter does not work for me for programming. -- Steve Lamb -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On 04/02/2008, BartlebyScrivener [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Feb 3, 12:00 pm, Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sounds great, but the only thing that really makes me interested is the full keyboard control, Which necessarily involves all of the advantages of using vim and all of the programmable aspects of Mutt. I used T-bird for years. Also used OOwriter and Word for years. But Vim (or Emacs, or whatever text editor you like) is a hundred times faster and more efficient than a point-and-click word processor, right? Sure, for plain text OOo and Word are terrible tools. They are not meant for that purpose. However, when you need markup such as that for print documents, a word processor is a necessity. Same goes for Mutt vs. T-bird. Faster, totally programmable, and you get to compose emails in your favorite text editor. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On Feb 4, 4:20 pm, Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sure, for plain text OOo and Word are terrible tools. They are not meant for that purpose. However, when you need markup such as that for print documents, a word processor is a necessity. A necessity? Only if you don't know LaTeX. But I think you see my point. For a text and keyboard person, mutt is much more efficient. To me using Thunderbird to send email is like trying to manage text with a word processor. To pick up on your analogy. Mutt is made for the purpose of managing and sending plain text emails. If that's what you want to do, then it's much more efficient and programmable than a gui email program like Thunderbird. Just my opinion. RD -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On Feb 4, 5:20 pm, Steve Lamb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It all depends on the work habits of the individual user. Well, you can say that about anything, right? The OP asked what he was missing, so he's soliciting the opinions of people with different work habits. Just as while I am a vim devotee for programming Python I most certainly would not use it for creating documents fit for printing. Well, to me Vim can do almost anything, so I'd rather use it for programming, emailing, and writing books. I'll grant you that to draft a one-page memo to a colleague it's probably easiest to use OO or Word, but in this day and age you're probably going to send an email anyway, and not a Word doc. Trying to stick to the email topic, consider how much easier it is to grep the /Mail folder, or use Mutt's ~b search, instead of trying to figure out Thunderbird's clunky search interface. To use just one example. rd http://dooling.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 02/04/08 18:15, BartlebyScrivener wrote: On Feb 4, 5:20 pm, Steve Lamb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It all depends on the work habits of the individual user. Well, you can say that about anything, right? The OP asked what he was missing, so he's soliciting the opinions of people with different work habits. Just as while I am a vim devotee for programming Python I most certainly would not use it for creating documents fit for printing. Well, to me Vim can do almost anything, so I'd rather use it for programming, emailing, and writing books. I'll grant you that to draft a one-page memo to a colleague it's probably easiest to use OO or Word, but in this day and age you're probably going to send an email anyway, and not a Word doc. Trying to stick to the email topic, consider how much easier it is to grep the /Mail folder, or use Mutt's ~b search, instead of trying to figure out Thunderbird's clunky search interface. To use just one example. Clunky search interface? To me, it's as simple an interface as could be. No RE, though. - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA PETA - People Eating Tasty Animals -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHp9OpS9HxQb37XmcRAkttAKCf9U85zCbV/BY79pH+V6+dp3UGbQCgi+GN PJmssFDqX3nWQzifP5JNQxA= =qNNy -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On Mon, Feb 04, 2008 at 04:15:21PM -0800, BartlebyScrivener wrote: Trying to stick to the email topic, consider how much easier it is to grep the /Mail folder, or use Mutt's ~b search, instead of trying to figure out Thunderbird's clunky search interface. To use just one example. Actually both make it very simple to filter by author and subject (in Thunderbird: just type text in the search field, in mutt - press l, type your text and Enter). Learning all of those ~CHAR patters takes time, and they are not accessible enough from within the interface (compare pine's on-line help to mutt's) -- Tzafrir Cohen | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's [EMAIL PROTECTED] || best ICQ# 16849754 || friend -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
Dotan Cohen wrote: As a thunderbird user, what am I missing by not using mutt? Teach me, if it's a better client than I'd love to learn it. I'm not afraid of the CLI, and I'm not afraid of VI[M]. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? You are missing possibility to use coloured letters in messages. That is main reason to use Mutt.
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
Quoth Dotan Cohen: As a thunderbird user, what am I missing by not using mutt? Teach me, if it's a better client than I'd love to learn it. I'm not afraid of the CLI, and I'm not afraid of VI[M]. What you're missing? Tedious fetchmail/procmail/maildrop/exim/sendmail-configuration, 200-lines .muttrc... No seriously, mutt is king - once you've set it up. What you're missing? Well, how about 'navigating completely from keyboard' using mostly vi-like shortcuts? * Being able to look at your mail when you have no XServer (remotely, your driver's hosed, whatever). * You don't have to wait 30 seconds for your MUA to fire up, everything responds just as quickly as you'd like it to. * No fancy specific format for your mailboxes - mutt can use maildir and mh (nobody uses mbox anymore, but mutt actually supports it) * Enhanced regular expressions for organizing your mail (delete all unread mails between date x and y with foo in their Sender: field). * Great console integration - you can pipe everything into any program... * Flexibility! * Geek-factor... * No bulky graphics. Your mail and just your mail. * You can watch multiple mailboxes at a time - just fire up another instance. * In Debian, mutt can handle most attatchments by invoking the proper application. I probably missed out a lot Aleks signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
Dotan Cohen: As a thunderbird user, what am I missing by not using mutt? Teach me, if it's a better client than I'd love to learn it. I'm not afraid of the CLI, and I'm not afraid of VI[M]. - Ability to use your favourite editor for mail editing - Complete and fast control via keyboard only - Easy fast usage via SSH - Ability to edit mail headers - Ability to change configuration parameters depending on recipient, mail folder and to run commands on certain events - Ability to use custom spam and other filtering software - Filtering mail content before viewing (to strip mailing list footers, decode HTML...) - Mailing list support - Support for various mailbox formats (mbox, gzipped mboxes, maildir, IMAP) - Non-interactive Command line usability There's probably more. :) J. -- I throw away plastics and think about the discoveries of future archeologists. [Agree] [Disagree] http://www.slowlydownward.com/NODATA/data_enter2.html signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
Sounds great, but the only thing that really makes me interested is the full keyboard control, as none of the other features I need. I'll start looking for Tbird extensions that might help, or I'll learn to write my own. I'm glad I asked, though. Thanks. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
2008/2/3 Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Sounds great, but the only thing that really makes me interested is the full keyboard control, as none of the other features I need. I'll start looking for Tbird extensions that might help, or I'll learn to write my own. I'm glad I asked, though. Thanks. My understanding is that XUL's shortcut/keybinding system is inherently weird and/or underpowered, making it difficult to put good keybindings in the apps or in extensions. I guess it has been done in Vimperator (vim-like FF), but as far as I know, Muttator is purely theoretical at this point. Cheers, Kelly Clowers -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On Sun, Feb 03, 2008 at 06:36:41PM +0100, Jochen Schulz wrote: Dotan Cohen: As a thunderbird user, what am I missing by not using mutt? ... - Easy fast usage via SSH I run imap on my mail server with the idea that I can get mail from anywhere and that's great. But I find, using mutt, that it's really useless to have imap because odds are if I'm doing mail, I probably want access to my systems in other ways too. So it turns out I do all of my mail by ssh to my main box and attaching a screen session. All I ever use imap for is reading the mail from one side of the room to the other. So for me, the easy fast ssh access to mail is the #1 thing about mutt. A signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
* ??. [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2008 Feb 03 11:35 -0600]: * No fancy specific format for your mailboxes - mutt can use maildir and mh (nobody uses mbox anymore, but mutt actually supports it) I truly am Nobody! Note that I don't have to create a user when I install Debian for fun anymore as `nobody' already exists. Those Debian Devs think of everything for me! - Nate -- The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On Sun, 3 Feb 2008 19:51:05 +0200 Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sounds great, but the only thing that really makes me interested is the full keyboard control, as none of the other features I need. I'll start looking for Tbird extensions that might help, or I'll learn to write my own. I'm glad I asked, though. Thanks. I'm a Sylpheed fan, and not a particularly expert one, and I control it almost exclusively via keyboard. You can bind custom key combos to functions using the standard GTK method. Dotan Cohen Celejar -- mailmin.sourceforge.net - remote access via secure (OpenPGP) email ssuds.sourceforge.net - A Simple Sudoku Solver and Generator -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On Sun, 3 Feb 2008 11:33:55 -0800 Andrew Sackville-West [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So for me, the easy fast ssh access to mail is the #1 thing about mutt. Can't one just tunnel any MUA through ssh, with something like 'ssh -L 110:remote_host:110'? A Celejar -- mailmin.sourceforge.net - remote access via secure (OpenPGP) email ssuds.sourceforge.net - A Simple Sudoku Solver and Generator -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What am I missing without mutt?
On Sun, Feb 03, 2008 at 06:27:23PM +0100, Александър Л. Димитров wrote: Quoth Dotan Cohen: As a thunderbird user, what am I missing by not using mutt? Teach me, if it's a better client than I'd love to learn it. I'm not afraid of the CLI, and I'm not afraid of VI[M]. What you're missing? Tedious fetchmail/procmail/maildrop/exim/sendmail-configuration, 200-lines .muttrc... No seriously, mutt is king - once you've set it up. What you're missing? Well, how about 'navigating completely from keyboard' using mostly vi-like shortcuts? * Being able to look at your mail when you have no XServer (remotely, your driver's hosed, whatever). * You don't have to wait 30 seconds for your MUA to fire up, everything responds just as quickly as you'd like it to. * No fancy specific format for your mailboxes - mutt can use maildir and mh (nobody uses mbox anymore, but mutt actually supports it) * Enhanced regular expressions for organizing your mail (delete all unread mails between date x and y with foo in their Sender: field). can you give an example of this I have been limited to doing searches like ~s regex I haven't been able to chain them together * Great console integration - you can pipe everything into any program... * Flexibility! * Geek-factor... * No bulky graphics. Your mail and just your mail. * You can watch multiple mailboxes at a time - just fire up another instance. * In Debian, mutt can handle most attatchments by invoking the proper application. I probably missed out a lot Aleks -- Trying to stop suiciders --which we're doing a pretty good job of on occasion-- is difficult to do. And what the Iraqis are going to have to eventually do is convince those who are conducting suiciders who are not inspired by Al Qaeda, for example, to realize there's a peaceful tomorrow. - George W. Bush 05/24/2006 Washington, DC signature.asc Description: Digital signature
