Mentoring. (was Re: how many users is enough? (was Re: Debian Installer 7.0 Beta4 release))
[snip] On 28 November 2012 09:39, Lisi Reisz lisi.re...@gmail.com wrote: On Tuesday 27 November 2012 22:31:52 Beco wrote: I would like a mentor during my next vacation, to help me with .deb files. Here is a web-page that explains the scheme. Don't be put off by the mention of women. They mentor irrespective of gender. quote However, this group wouldn't exist within Debian without the support of the men within the Debian community and the mentoring program does administer to both male and female mentees. And there are both male and female mentors. /quote http://women.debian.org/mentoring And/or you can send an email to: mentor...@women.debian.org requesting a mentor. There are more mentors than are mentioned on the link I gave you above. Some have chosen not to make themselves visible in this way. The name, of course, is sexist. It was originally started to try to get more women into developing; to improve the conversion rate for women in Debian, if you will. But that was some while ago, and it now caters for both genders. Do keep me posted on how you get on! [snip] Cheers, Lisi Hi Lisi, Do you have any news about the mentoring program? Catherine Gramze, as Lisi explained, they mentor both male and female. My best, Beco. -- Dr Beco A.I. researcher Sometimes the heart sees what is invisible to the eye. (H. Jackson Brown Jr.) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caluyw2yx27qtmuu3wzzt6hjxvjqadpj5lzgtahokbhdntg_...@mail.gmail.com
Re: how many users is enough?
Le 01.12.2012 21:59, Chris Bannister a écrit : On Sat, Dec 01, 2012 at 02:34:12PM +0100, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: Le 01.12.2012 07:50, Chris Bannister a écrit : On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 02:35:41PM +0100, Morel Bérenger wrote: If I am not wrong, .NET have documented specifications, and I ~think~ they are also doing some free softwares. $ apt-cache show mono-complete I was speaking about microsoft :) Ummm, ... OK. Did I snip the wrong bit? No, just you took it out of context ;) My response was because you said ... and I ~think~ they are also doing some free softwares. I was meaning that there is no need to worry whether they are doing free .NET software or not because according to apt-cache show mono-complete I think you mixed .NET softwares and .NET framework. First ones are softwares using the second one, and mono is the free version of the second one, if I am not wrong. I was simply speaking about microsoft making free stuff, no matter if it is windows only and/or using .NET. I hope my words are more clear now -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4462239505b96b8538793fc77f9fe...@neutralite.org
Re: how many users is enough?
Le 01.12.2012 07:50, Chris Bannister a écrit : On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 02:35:41PM +0100, Morel Bérenger wrote: If I am not wrong, .NET have documented specifications, and I ~think~ they are also doing some free softwares. $ apt-cache show mono-complete I was speaking about microsoft :) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/23fb91bf85267815c75fe8d1f822f...@neutralite.org
Linux vs BSD (was Re: how many users is enough?)
berenger.mo...@neutralite.org grabbed a keyboard and wrote: Le 01.12.2012 07:50, Chris Bannister a écrit : On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 02:35:41PM +0100, Morel Bérenger wrote: If I am not wrong, .NET have documented specifications, and I ~think~ they are also doing some free softwares. $ apt-cache show mono-complete I was speaking about microsoft :) If I recall correctly, in an earlier posting you made here you asked about the difference between BSD and Linux. If that wasn't you, I apologize, and hope that the person who asked will see the subject line and find this just the same. :-) I stumbled upon the following write-up on the subject and found it to be an interesting read. As someone who cut his early teeth on UNIX systems, I'd say that I largely agree with the distinctions that he makes between the two. http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/rants/bsd4linux/01 --Dave signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Linux vs BSD (was Re: how many users is enough?)
David Guntner wrote: If I recall correctly, in an earlier posting you made here you asked about the difference between BSD and Linux. If that wasn't you, I apologize, and hope that the person who asked will see the subject line and find this just the same. :-) I stumbled upon the following write-up on the subject and found it to be an interesting read. As someone who cut his early teeth on UNIX systems, I'd say that I largely agree with the distinctions that he makes between the two. http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/rants/bsd4linux/01 --Dave Dave... thanks for the pointer. It's a useful and informative writeup, and a good read. (I also say this as someone who used early Unices, as well as both Linux and BSD). -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50ba237d.6040...@meetinghouse.net
Re: how many users is enough?
On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 3:01 PM, Morel Bérenger berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: And the subject was the number of users needed to keep a distro alive ;) One. Of course it would take ages for a release. :) The power of GNU/Linux distros (and other *nixes) lies - IMHO obviously - in the community of volunteers who keep it. Of course this is only possible thanks to it being open source, but if hell were to freeze over of microsoft were to open source Windows 7, you'd see a dramatic increase in 7's quality. Ever since XP SP3 i've began to tag Window OSes as tolerable (well except Vista, but that was a beta 7 anyway, management decisions over technical ones for you). Haven't tried 8 yet, too tablet for me. As for Debian, i've been a regular user for ages. I don't like the apparent ease and pointy-clickiness of Ubuntu and i count rant on about that OS. -- On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/cadqa9ua7ep54frtdjuiqb4nucltfuvjntb5rvowkcl1kajh...@mail.gmail.com
Re: how many users is enough?
On Sat, Dec 01, 2012 at 02:34:12PM +0100, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: Le 01.12.2012 07:50, Chris Bannister a écrit : On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 02:35:41PM +0100, Morel Bérenger wrote: If I am not wrong, .NET have documented specifications, and I ~think~ they are also doing some free softwares. $ apt-cache show mono-complete I was speaking about microsoft :) Ummm, ... OK. Did I snip the wrong bit? My response was because you said ... and I ~think~ they are also doing some free softwares. I was meaning that there is no need to worry whether they are doing free .NET software or not because according to apt-cache show mono-complete [...] Install this package if you want to run software for Mono or Microsoft .NET which you are not installing from a Debian package. [...] -- If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20121201205951.GA5606@tal
Re: how many users is enough?
Le Jeu 29 novembre 2012 22:56, Slavko a écrit : Hi, DÅa Wed, 28 Nov 2012 17:35:07 + Jon Dowland j...@debian.org napÃsal: Slavko phrased it as 'Ubuntu leaves 93 % of packages untouched', which does not imply that packages only existing in Ubuntu and not Debian are considered in that 7%. I want no flame, i want point that compare the Ubuntu and Debian (in mean of contribution and packaging) has different base only. b. Some small percentage of Debian packages need to be tweaked to accommodate minor differences between the Ubuntu and Debian environments. So 7% of packages are tweaked, but that says nothing about how big the tweaks are, which was my point. I did search and i found the source, here it is: http://raphaelhertzog.com/2010/11/22/how-ubuntu-builds-up-on-debian/ The numbers are 2 years old, and can be different now. But, IMO, the exact numbers are not fundamental here. Now where the number of users/contributors might really come into play is when it comes to maintaining/developing those aspects of Debian and Ubuntu that are unique to the respective distros (e.g., their installers and package repositories). One of the most important contributions one can make to Debian is to find, diagnose, test and fix bugs. They can exist in any package in the repository, not just those that are OS-specific, or particularly heavily customized in each OS - and how well that process works is directly impacted by the number of users. You are right, of course, bug hunting is simplest contribution. A lot of people think, that for contribution they must know C, C++ or similar. But testing bugreporting can be done by anyone (only English is needed). But, it can be sometime terrible. I have one package in mind - the lightdm and its autologin feature - communication with maintainer was terrible and caused, that i will don't fill bug for this package in future. I remember to have used bugreport sometimes (2, IIRC, with identified solutions). But I do not remember having any responses :) I wonder if it is possible to access a true bug tracker, which can allow some following. And finally, there is this user mail list, where can be contribution done too - by helping to others :-) This last point of contribution is essential in Ubuntu/Debian comparing. The Ubuntu users seems to be more visible by amount of their forums, mail lists, articles, etc. The Ubuntu's howtos and articles helps are mostly useful for Debian too. I think it depends on the problem you have. Usually, I am navigating between 2-3 distro's resources depending on the difficulty of the problem/question I have: _ Ubuntu for common problems with easy solutions _ Arch gentoo for problems related to deep tinkering and rarely used softwares/configurations, like tiling window managers or configuring the computer to make TTY1 behaving as a light display manager. But i latest time i read something about commercialization of the Ubuntu (if i proper remmeber, Cannonical tell something about new OS, but Linux based), i am not sure how this Ubuntu's users contribution will be in future and who will be profit from it. I think there is no problems if they make another OS commercialized. Sounds like (at least, they claim that) they have problems with making money with their actual and their tries to insert money-generating features in it does not sounds so popular. Maybe they should follow the red-hat's way, but for basic users instead of professionals. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/2ebc163f7c8d736360c1d8dd3460541b.squir...@www.sud-ouest.org
Re: how many users is enough?
On Fri, 2012-11-30 at 16:16 +1100, Zenaan Harkness wrote: On 11/30/12, Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@rocketmail.com wrote: I would describe the relationship between Ubuntu and Debian like this: Without Debian there would be no successful Ubuntu, but without Ubuntu there still would be a successful Debian. This is true, Debian being what it is, a community based, largely volunteer effort, it shall continue regardless of the profit or not of any particular company. I sure hope to see the day that Ubuntu announces a true profit though, the more companies that survive, which companies also make some contributions to the libre software ecosystem, the better. I started with Suse 9.0, when Suse wasn't Novell. Novell, Red Hat and Mark Shuttleworth killed Linux, time to look out for other *NIX or to follow them. The variety of Linux already is dead. Take a look at the thread Notifications changed in LXDE under wheezy for Xfce an issue too. FUD? Again, people might chose applications that don't have insane dependencies, MUAs without a GUI etc., but we don't have the freedom to use what app we want, as it was possible in the past. Regards, Ralf -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1354272542.3059.119.camel@q
Re: how many users is enough?
On Fri, 2012-11-30 at 11:07 +0100, Morel Bérenger wrote: I have one package in mind - the lightdm and its autologin feature - communication with maintainer was terrible and caused, that i will don't fill bug for this package in future. I remember to have used bugreport sometimes (2, IIRC, with identified solutions). But I do not remember having any responses :) I wonder if it is possible to access a true bug tracker, which can allow some following. Some people from upstream treat users like idiots. I don't use bug trackers, I even don't mention all the current bugs any more. All bugs caused by e.g. pulseaudio, systemd, upstart, GNOME dependencies are features, no bugs. OTOH, regarding to applications there are coders who care a lot about the users, e.g. Rui Nuno Capela. If you e.g. report a bug to Qtractor devel, it usually takes less than an hour and the bug is fixed, you only have to compile Qtractor from svn and build the package yourself. YMMV! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1354273519.3059.126.camel@q
Re: how many users is enough?
Le Ven 30 novembre 2012 11:49, Ralf Mardorf a écrit : On Fri, 2012-11-30 at 16:16 +1100, Zenaan Harkness wrote: On 11/30/12, Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@rocketmail.com wrote: I would describe the relationship between Ubuntu and Debian like this: Without Debian there would be no successful Ubuntu, but without Ubuntu there still would be a successful Debian. This is true, Debian being what it is, a community based, largely volunteer effort, it shall continue regardless of the profit or not of any particular company. I sure hope to see the day that Ubuntu announces a true profit though, the more companies that survive, which companies also make some contributions to the libre software ecosystem, the better. I started with Suse 9.0, when Suse wasn't Novell. Novell, Red Hat and Mark Shuttleworth killed Linux, time to look out for other *NIX or to follow them. The variety of Linux already is dead. Hum... As far as I know (and as distrowatch say), there are still many linux distributions. I like variety, or to be more exact, Debian teach me to like it, but I only like it when I can see and understand the difference between choices. I am still a linux newbie, and I still only have really experienced one distro, but as a newbie I can say that I do not see the difference between distributions, and so, I do not see why I should try another binary one. Ah, yes, package's age, package's system (but I do not know the difference in terms of power between rpm and deb, by example) and graphical configuration system (someone said me on a developpez.com thread). So, well, I agree, less choice. But was there real differences between all of those old distros? I think less choice is sometimes a requirement to help people doing a true choice. Do you know why I firstly choosed Debian? It have the reputation of a hard to install distro, and at that time I thought I was good with computers. I managed to install it the first time, without manual or problems. But I had no graphic interface, and even if I was able to use command-lines (I was accustomed to DOS) I had no clue about what to do to install Xorg. Well, I did not even known that it exists :D (strange: now I'm really better in computer sciences, but I think/claim everywhere that I am a newbie. Times and people change...) Some months later, I bought a magazine shipping live ubuntu. I tried it. I did not liked it's desktop and so returned to my good old xp (or was it 98se?). But it made me aware that it was possible to have convenient graphical environment and easy installation systems for a linux-based OS. So, no, Ubuntu did not killed linux. And honestly, Ubuntu and Fedora can not choose for Debian or gentoo, by example. Each distro should follow it's own way, and if there ways converge, so maybe that's not so useful to have tons of distros. Take a look at the thread Notifications changed in LXDE under wheezy for Xfce an issue too. FUD? Again, people might chose applications that don't have insane dependencies, MUAs without a GUI etc., but we don't have the freedom to use what app we want, as it was possible in the past. With XFCE, at least in 4.08 and 4.10, it is possible when I was using them. You can install any file manager, window manager, notification daemon/plug-in you want, if it fills freedesktop's recommendations, it will integrates well with the DE. If not, you can use it, but I do not know if it will be comfortable. Never tried. Of course, you can install the xfce4 meta package, which have hard dependencies on all major XFCE4 components. But the truth is that XFCE4 package is not needed. When I was using it, I was accustomed to say to aptitude to select it, and then in preview, I removed it, and set the dependencies it have as manually installed. I always thought it should have no dependencies, only recommendations, but never reported that idea. There is also xfce4-core, for minimal meta-package shipping only basic components. I perfectly remember that there was a package named xfce-notify or alike. In XFCE, there is also a configuration system that allow you to change their appearance quite easily. However I can not describe how to change the config, because: _ I did not used xfce since so many time _ my menus were in French _ how to describe an icon when themes can be customized? How to describe how to clic? In French, I use a neologism to describe the kind of softwares that MS have so much knowledge to do: cliquodrom (from clic and velodrome ;)). They are easy to use mouse-only softwares, but hard to teach the use with just text, because their appearance can change depending on so many parameters. And I do not like them, of course :D XFCE have a central library set, so there are common dependencies. But LXDE avoid them, that's their leitmotiv and it explains why I am still using some of their softwares, instead of DE independent alternatives (leafpad and lxterminal to be exact). Maybe in the past, there were more choices.
Re: how many users is enough?
Some people from upstream treat users like idiots. I don't use bug trackers, I even don't mention all the current bugs any more. All bugs caused by e.g. pulseaudio, systemd, upstart, GNOME dependencies are features, no bugs. Trollday? :P OTOH, regarding to applications there are coders who care a lot about the users, e.g. Rui Nuno Capela. If you e.g. report a bug to Qtractor devel, it usually takes less than an hour and the bug is fixed, you only have to compile Qtractor from svn and build the package yourself. I would like to have a professional job on an open source project, that should be very instructive and nice for motivation. (In fact, even simply being able to work on a linux system could make me happier). But I think that only rare projects have paid developer, and so that bugs can take time to be solved. They can also be very complex depending on the software context. Honestly, I wonder why people use pulseaudio, systemd, upstart, GNOME if they are so bugged? If people are serious about that, I can only say: ok, so, let's move to alternatives. You'll see if things are better, and if yes, you can keep them. But the serious about the work is not an open-source only problem. Some people just see their interest, other love their work. I do not know how to explain that in English, words I know lacks nuances. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/004e664b48fc1bb2de579b67ec7d1399.squir...@www.sud-ouest.org
Re: how many users is enough?
On Fri, 2012-11-30 at 13:05 +0100, Morel Bérenger wrote: I would like to have a professional job on an open source project, that should be very instructive and nice for motivation. It's a balancing act. Did you think about Google? Google is evil and good at the same time and they always seek for staff all over the world. Not everything has to be open source, to support open source. As I've written for the howto. We do violence to NAZIs where I'm living, but we also forgive, when they stop being NAZIs and don't care about bad tattoos etc.. IMO it's possible to work for Google, even if you don't like many parts of Google's policy. We aren't living in a world like this: http://www.google.de/search?hl=degs_rn=0gs_ri=hpcp=6gs_id=1xxhr=tq=my+little+ponybav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.bpcl=39314241biw=1152bih=729um=1ie=UTF-8tbm=ischsource=ogsa=Ntab=wiei=-6S4UJWYIojzsgbb8IDgCQ There even is open source for Windows, not by Microsoft, but from Windows users. Linux isn't the only FLOSS on this planet. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1354278329.3059.159.camel@q
Re: how many users is enough?
On Fri, 2012-11-30 at 13:25 +0100, Ralf Mardorf wrote: As I've written for the howto not howto, but for the the other mail Pardon, I'm in a hurry. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1354278437.3059.160.camel@q
Re: how many users is enough?
On Fri, 2012-11-30 at 12:55 +0100, Morel Bérenger wrote about settings for desktop environments. Some distos, e.g. Arch Linux don't install X by default. But now to the settings. Usually you have a mix of GTK and QT applications, so it also wasn't that easy to set up fonts and colours in the past. You can't simply do the settings for the desktop environment you use and expect it will be ok for all applications, but today we are in a situation where we get more and more complete incompatibilities. Some hard dependencies are simply unneeded. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1354281324.3059.177.camel@q
Re: how many users is enough?
IMO it's possible to work for Google, even if you don't like many parts of Google's policy. It is possible to work for every people imho, when you need food and home. There even is open source for Windows, not by Microsoft, but from Windows users. Linux isn't the only FLOSS on this planet. Well, even Microsoft started doing open stuff. If I am not wrong, .NET have documented specifications, and I ~think~ they are also doing some free softwares. And I know that they have, at least, started to follow some standards they did not made. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/15585163a71f408d496720e0bf632a27.squir...@www.sud-ouest.org
Re: how many users is enough?
On Fri, 2012-11-30 at 14:35 +0100, Morel Bérenger wrote: IMO it's possible to work for Google, even if you don't like many parts of Google's policy. It is possible to work for every people imho, when you need food and home. I'm jobless, I would work for Google, but never ever for McDonald's, not regarding to the kind of work, I'm willing to flip over Hamburgers. I don't agree with the policy of Google, but it's ethically tolerable for my taste. I can eat a Hamburger from McDonald's, I could work one day for McDonalds, but ethically I couldn't eat my whole life at McDonald's or work a whole month or longer for this company. Back to the topic. It's important to get more and more people using Linux, not because Windows is a bad operating system. Windows 98se was and XP still is a very good operating system. Microsoft simply is an evil company. Bill Gates is an evil man. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1354285779.3059.217.camel@q
Re: how many users is enough?
Le Ven 30 novembre 2012 15:29, Ralf Mardorf a écrit : On Fri, 2012-11-30 at 14:35 +0100, Morel Bérenger wrote: IMO it's possible to work for Google, even if you don't like many parts of Google's policy. It is possible to work for every people imho, when you need food and home. I'm jobless, I would work for Google, but never ever for McDonald's, not regarding to the kind of work, I'm willing to flip over Hamburgers. I don't agree with the policy of Google, but it's ethically tolerable for my taste. I can eat a Hamburger from McDonald's, I could work one day for McDonalds, but ethically I couldn't eat my whole life at McDonald's or work a whole month or longer for this company. I can use google to do one special search, but most of the time I avoid it as hell. Do you know what? That's the same for McDonald's. I use disgusting services when I have no other choices. To be exact, the last thing I still use from google is their map service. For the search engine I have find a better a long time ago (duckduckgo which use google's results, I know). But if I had no other choice than to work for one of those companies, well, why not? In fact, I would probably have less problems working for the second, at least the food vendor is not trying to spy the whole world (at least in France). He just sell crap to people wanting crap. I see no problem here. I still have my good restaurants aside, which cost a little more but can just not be compared (obvious, they do not make fast food). Back to the topic. It's important to get more and more people using Linux, not because Windows is a bad operating system. Windows 98se was and XP still is a very good operating system. Microsoft simply is an evil company. Bill Gates is an evil man. IIRC, BG is no longer working for MS. Well, he probably still have actions, of course, but I do not think he have still a very big power. And the subject was the number of users needed to keep a distro alive ;) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/a090647d77d6cb370a757da00c498d3e.squir...@www.sud-ouest.org
Re: how many users is enough?
On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 02:35:41PM +0100, Morel Bérenger wrote: If I am not wrong, .NET have documented specifications, and I ~think~ they are also doing some free softwares. $ apt-cache show mono-complete -- If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20121201065012.GA17068@tal
Re: how many users is enough?
Hi, Dňa Wed, 28 Nov 2012 17:35:07 + Jon Dowland j...@debian.org napísal: Slavko phrased it as 'Ubuntu leaves 93 % of packages untouched', which does not imply that packages only existing in Ubuntu and not Debian are considered in that 7%. I want no flame, i want point that compare the Ubuntu and Debian (in mean of contribution and packaging) has different base only. b. Some small percentage of Debian packages need to be tweaked to accommodate minor differences between the Ubuntu and Debian environments. So 7% of packages are tweaked, but that says nothing about how big the tweaks are, which was my point. I did search and i found the source, here it is: http://raphaelhertzog.com/2010/11/22/how-ubuntu-builds-up-on-debian/ The numbers are 2 years old, and can be different now. But, IMO, the exact numbers are not fundamental here. Now where the number of users/contributors might really come into play is when it comes to maintaining/developing those aspects of Debian and Ubuntu that are unique to the respective distros (e.g., their installers and package repositories). One of the most important contributions one can make to Debian is to find, diagnose, test and fix bugs. They can exist in any package in the repository, not just those that are OS-specific, or particularly heavily customized in each OS - and how well that process works is directly impacted by the number of users. You are right, of course, bug hunting is simplest contribution. A lot of people think, that for contribution they must know C, C++ or similar. But testing bugreporting can be done by anyone (only English is needed). But, it can be sometime terrible. I have one package in mind - the lightdm and its autologin feature - communication with maintainer was terrible and caused, that i will don't fill bug for this package in future. There are other ways to contribute too - the translation, for example, webpage, package's descriptions, documentation, etc. I mean translation of the Debian's specific things. And finally, there is this user mail list, where can be contribution done too - by helping to others :-) This last point of contribution is essential in Ubuntu/Debian comparing. The Ubuntu users seems to be more visible by amount of their forums, mail lists, articles, etc. The Ubuntu's howtos and articles helps are mostly useful for Debian too. But i latest time i read something about commercialization of the Ubuntu (if i proper remmeber, Cannonical tell something about new OS, but Linux based), i am not sure how this Ubuntu's users contribution will be in future and who will be profit from it. regards -- Slavko http://slavino.sk signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: how many users is enough?
Slavko wrote: I did search and i found the source, here it is: http://raphaelhertzog.com/2010/11/22/how-ubuntu-builds-up-on-debian/ Thanks for the pointer, I just went and read it. It's a pretty good and informative read. So are the comments. Still timely and worth reading. Miles -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50b7e25a.6080...@meetinghouse.net
Re: how many users is enough?
I would describe the relationship between Ubuntu and Debian like this: Without Debian there would be no successful Ubuntu, but without Ubuntu there still would be a successful Debian. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1354235485.3059.81.camel@q
Re: how many users is enough?
On 11/30/12, Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@rocketmail.com wrote: I would describe the relationship between Ubuntu and Debian like this: Without Debian there would be no successful Ubuntu, but without Ubuntu there still would be a successful Debian. This is true, Debian being what it is, a community based, largely volunteer effort, it shall continue regardless of the profit or not of any particular company. I sure hope to see the day that Ubuntu announces a true profit though, the more companies that survive, which companies also make some contributions to the libre software ecosystem, the better. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAOsGNST=gxee1eugo9xsq8nxzoqc4cg7dpu4kj4slxuvbdv...@mail.gmail.com
Re: how many users is enough? (was Re: Debian Installer 7.0 Beta4 release)
Hi, Dňa Tue, 27 Nov 2012 12:13:19 -0300 Beco r...@beco.cc napísal: Ubuntu has probably the same complexity for a developer, but as they are more friendly to novices, they have more contributors. Ubuntu leaves 93 % of packages untouched and changes/additions are done only to 7 % from them (statistic by some Ubuntu Debian developer - sorry i have no link). Then Ubuntu has significantly less to do... regards -- Slavko http://slavino.sk signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: how many users is enough? (was Re: Debian Installer 7.0 Beta4 release)
On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 03:47:46PM +0100, Slavko wrote: Ubuntu leaves 93 % of packages untouched and changes/additions are done only to 7 % from them (statistic by some Ubuntu Debian developer - sorry i have no link). Then Ubuntu has significantly less to do... That's a flawed argument. It takes no notice of how big the changes in those 7% of packages might be. And it does not consider packages which do not exist in Debian. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20121128145700.GJ30837@debian
Re: how many users is enough? (was Re: Debian Installer 7.0 Beta4 release)
Jon Dowland wrote: On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 03:47:46PM +0100, Slavko wrote: Ubuntu leaves 93 % of packages untouched and changes/additions are done only to 7 % from them (statistic by some Ubuntu Debian developer - sorry i have no link). Then Ubuntu has significantly less to do... That's a flawed argument. It takes no notice of how big the changes in those 7% of packages might be. And it does not consider packages which do not exist in Debian. That's an even more flawed argument. We're talking about packaging, not development. Ubuntu is based on Debian and uses the same packaging format. So what big changes might we be talking about that are distro-specific? Major changes are generally applied upstream, and then packages are update. (Personally, I'm suspicious of software and changes that are distribution-specific.) What that 7% statistic really suggests is some combination of: a. Some of those packages are developed by folks who use Ubuntu, and don't get around to releasing a separate package for Debian (or nobody has stepped up to maintain a Debian package). I expect this doesn't matter very much - just as most Debian packages work just fine under Ubuntu, I expect most Ubuntu packages would work just fine under Debian (haven't tried this, though). b. Some small percentage of Debian packages need to be tweaked to accommodate minor differences between the Ubuntu and Debian environments. Personally, I find that all the common packages are available for both environments, and the less common packages are so out-of-date that I end up building them from upstream, and using alien or checkinstall so I can keep track of them with apt.For the purposes of this discussion, what really seems to matter is whether or not the upstream developers have provided configure and make files that work under both Debian and Ubuntu - the size of respective user bases might influence whether the developers actually test under one distro or another. Now where the number of users/contributors might really come into play is when it comes to maintaining/developing those aspects of Debian and Ubuntu that are unique to the respective distros (e.g., their installers and package repositories). Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50b63507.9060...@meetinghouse.net
Re: how many users is enough? (was Re: Debian Installer 7.0 Beta4 release)
That's an even more flawed argument. We're talking about packaging, not development. Packaging will differ if the maintainer thinks that an optional dep is better than another, or the option is useless etc... So, I think packagers must have some knowledge about the software they maintain. But I might be wrong. (Personally, I'm suspicious of software and changes that are distribution-specific.) Are you suspicious about the Debian Linux kernel? It have distro specific patches. (But I think and hope that they are reported upstream. Did not checked.) (haven't tried this, though). I think you should. The only time I tried, it was for a package maintained by their developers named openmw. Trying installing it was not possible because of a version difference o libc6 IIRC. I tried to force the installation, to do it by hand, and the software just crashed. My opinion about that is that distros integrate patches on their softwares, for some things, and those patches makes things not working from a distro to another, even it the other is the ancestor. But I only tried with one package, so maybe other works nicely. I really think that the packaging is not so easy as it sounds. If it was, all developers would provide packages automagically generated for all distros, and this would not require maintainers. But strangely, that's not so common. Maybe because it's not that simple... -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/240b1cc0d06cee288900ffdd8a73b9ed.squir...@www.sud-ouest.org
Re: how many users is enough? (was Re: Debian Installer 7.0 Beta4 release)
Morel Bérenger wrote: (Personally, I'm suspicious of software and changes that are distribution-specific.) Are you suspicious about the Debian Linux kernel? It have distro specific patches. (But I think and hope that they are reported upstream. Did not checked.) Well, that's why I included this: | Now where the number of users/contributors might really come into play is when it comes to maintaining/developing those aspects of | Debian and Ubuntu that are unique to the respective distros (e.g., their installers and package repositories). I really think that the packaging is not so easy as it sounds. If it was, all developers would provide packages automagically generated for all distros, and this would not require maintainers. But strangely, that's not so common. Maybe because it's not that simple... Well... I usually find that ./configure; make; make install works automagically on most distributions - usually more reliably than packaged versions of more obscure code. Miles -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50b63c80.70...@meetinghouse.net
Re: how many users is enough? (was Re: Debian Installer 7.0 Beta4 release)
Hi, Dňa Wed, 28 Nov 2012 11:00:07 -0500 Miles Fidelman mfidel...@meetinghouse.net napísal: What that 7% statistic really suggests is some combination of: a. Some of those packages are developed by folks who use Ubuntu, and don't get around to releasing a separate package for Debian (or nobody has stepped up to maintain a Debian package). I expect this doesn't matter very much - just as most Debian packages work just fine under Ubuntu, I expect most Ubuntu packages would work just fine under Debian (haven't tried this, though). b. Some small percentage of Debian packages need to be tweaked to accommodate minor differences between the Ubuntu and Debian environments. c. Changes in packages to accommodate more user friendly environment (proprietary drivers installations, etc) But, perhaps it is in b. item already... regards -- Slavko http://slavino.sk signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: how many users is enough? (was Re: Debian Installer 7.0 Beta4 release)
On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 11:00:07AM -0500, Miles Fidelman wrote: Jon Dowland wrote: On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 03:47:46PM +0100, Slavko wrote: Ubuntu leaves 93 % of packages untouched and changes/additions are done only to 7 % from them (statistic by some Ubuntu Debian developer - sorry i have no link). Then Ubuntu has significantly less to do... That's a flawed argument. It takes no notice of how big the changes in those 7% of packages might be. And it does not consider packages which do not exist in Debian. That's an even more flawed argument. We're talking about packaging, not development. How do you draw a distinction? Lots of software in Debian and Ubuntu carry lots and lots of patches on top of the code supplied by upstream. Slavko's argument was that Ubuntu rides on the coattails of Debian, but the cited statistic did not include enough information to draw that conclusion. (Personally, I'm suspicious of software and changes that are distribution-specific.) It's considered a good rule of thumb to deviate as little as possible and submit deviations to upstream for inclusion where possible. But it's not always possible. What that 7% statistic really suggests is some combination of: a. Some of those packages are developed by folks who use Ubuntu, and don't get around to releasing a separate package for Debian (or nobody has stepped up to maintain a Debian package). I expect this doesn't matter very much - just as most Debian packages work just fine under Ubuntu, I expect most Ubuntu packages would work just fine under Debian (haven't tried this, though). Slavko phrased it as 'Ubuntu leaves 93 % of packages untouched', which does not imply that packages only existing in Ubuntu and not Debian are considered in that 7%. b. Some small percentage of Debian packages need to be tweaked to accommodate minor differences between the Ubuntu and Debian environments. So 7% of packages are tweaked, but that says nothing about how big the tweaks are, which was my point. Now where the number of users/contributors might really come into play is when it comes to maintaining/developing those aspects of Debian and Ubuntu that are unique to the respective distros (e.g., their installers and package repositories). One of the most important contributions one can make to Debian is to find, diagnose, test and fix bugs. They can exist in any package in the repository, not just those that are OS-specific, or particularly heavily customized in each OS - and how well that process works is directly impacted by the number of users. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20121128173503.GC8248@debian
Re: how many users is enough? (was Re: Debian Installer 7.0 Beta4 release)
Le 28.11.2012 20:32, Miles Fidelman a écrit : Morel Bérenger wrote: (Personally, I'm suspicious of software and changes that are distribution-specific.) Are you suspicious about the Debian Linux kernel? It have distro specific patches. (But I think and hope that they are reported upstream. Did not checked.) Well, that's why I included this: | Now where the number of users/contributors might really come into play is when it comes to maintaining/developing those aspects of | Debian and Ubuntu that are unique to the respective distros (e.g., their installers and package repositories). I really think that the packaging is not so easy as it sounds. If it was, all developers would provide packages automagically generated for all distros, and this would not require maintainers. But strangely, that's not so common. Maybe because it's not that simple... Well... I usually find that ./configure; make; make install works automagically on most distributions - usually more reliably than packaged versions of more obscure code. I will only speak about things I have seen, as a developer which only contributes to (some very rare) free softwares in his spare time (I would be happy to do so in professional time, trust me :) ). I did only tried Debian (and 10s of Ubuntu, ages ago, plus a try to install fedora recently, stopped at the first question I was not able to translate in terms I know. And windows, of course, for my job.) and did not tried many build systems: Visual Studio, Code::Blocks, qtcreator, eclipse and CMake. (yes, IDEs are included, because they integrate build systems) I can also only speak about C and C++ build systems, because when something works for C, it _often_ works for C++, which is currently the language I am using in my spare time. (just love it) I am not a script writer, too. They use different ways to think as my favorite language (type safety is just one example). And finally, I have uses vim (for small projects of 2-3 implementation files), but I never tried emacs. And I do not intend to, for some reasons (I use vim because it is a convenient tool, but not perfect, because hard to configure. emacs with a programming language that I do not master can only be worse, and I do not want to copy/paste. Those are some reasons. Not all.). You said that $./configure; make; sudo make install works easily. You are right, every time I wanted to run them, things worked not so bad. But... are they built automagically by a *SIMPLE* tool? If yes, I did not found it. Oh, and, by simple, I mean an easy to use and configure tool, of course. Not simple in the do only one thing way (yes, sysvinit -this is an example, please do not troll- is simpler that other main processes, but what about the easiness of configuration for someone who discover the system? Personally, I am unable to understand the boot procedure on my linux OS, and am not ashamed by that... Thousands of lines to read in hundreds script cryptic files... no reason to be ashamed of being unable to understand them...) One which does not require the user to learn yet another black magic programming language... Haskel, lisp, make, shell, powershell, perl, C#, python, sql, brainfuck, prolog, asm, C, C++, B, D, JAVA, objC, vb, pascal I do not care which one, if I have to learn a language, then it is not simple. Do not troll about the better languages here, I do not mind that someone think one is better than others. (the next on my list of 'to-learnuse' is already in the list and I think no one will guess which one it is :P) When I tried to look inside those scripts (configure and makefiles), I discovered... obscure text. Very obscure text. Insanely obscure text! Honestly, it is far easier to build your binary with your IDE or a shell script with hard-coded distro-dependent commands, create a folder tree representing the system, move (with a script) the files you have generated in the right destination, and write the small description file needed by dpkg to generate a .deb than creating a tool to allow people to dynamically build your software from a random environment, which have to be able to say they which dependencies are not right (it have because else, people will not even try to compile, even if you provide and IDE project file which can do the job. Linux users are so dogmatic... did someone noticed that often, there are a configure AND a visual studio project supported?) All of that can be made by a simple script written once and put in the after-build steps of your favorite IDE. Problems in this simple procedure are things are machine and/or distro dependent: _ the folder tree will change depending the POSIX OS you will use. Not to speak about non-POSIX OS, which are the most commonly installed nowadays. _ description file will change depending on the distro you are using _ of course, ABI will break very often _ there is also the hash (md5 of sha***, nevermind)
Re: how many users is enough? (was Re: Debian Installer 7.0 Beta4 release)
On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 9:00 AM, Jon Dowland j...@debian.org wrote: On Tue, Nov 27, 2012 at 12:39:54AM +, Russell L. Harris wrote: Let's welcome more (I assume we do want more users on our base, don't we? There needs to be a critical mass; but beyond that point, an increase in numbers is not necessarily beneficial. Agreed for 'mere' users, but another factor is how many users become useful contributors. A conversion rate, if you will. And you can compensate for a poor conversion rate, to a certain extent, by having more users. I think we have a poor conversion rate in Debian, and not enough contributors. We would have more contributors if Debian wasn't so proud of being for advanced users. Ubuntu has probably the same complexity for a developer, but as they are more friendly to novices, they have more contributors. We need to change the view that Debian is just for servers and gurus. That way, we would have a better, as you say, conversion rate, without the need of more users. To have more contributors, I think its easier to improve the conversion rate than to find more users. Cheers, Beco -- Dr Beco A.I. researcher -- . -- Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know... (Carl Sagan, 1934-1996) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CALuYw2yiXuRb39K62PRVO250=chch5fwxxoz9l1jwsqw6et...@mail.gmail.com
Re: how many users is enough? (was Re: Debian Installer 7.0 Beta4 release)
On Tue, 2012-11-27 at 12:13 -0300, Beco wrote: Ubuntu has probably the same complexity for a developer, but as they are more friendly to novices, they have more contributors. Ubuntu is tricky for newbies, it does fake to be similar to an iPad or Windows. And there's bizarre cooperation, such as a browser link in the applications menu to Amazon. For a developer Ubuntu is quasi equal to Debian, excepted of other software versions and upstart, but for the novice it could become very unpleasant. An advantage are releases such as Xubuntu, Edubuntu, Ubuntu Studio. I don't like claims as IMO distro A is better than distro B, because ..., for me it's Distro X at the moment is more pleasant for my needs, than distro Y, because ..., if I would like to become dogmatic, I would join a religion. Regarding to developers, it also is important what kind of developer. Some need to keep track with current upstream, or they are the people from upstream, others are independent from this. Y is more stable, than Z ... for what usage, under what circumstances? And we've got at least two kind of users. For some users the computer is a hobby and they like flashy changes, tons of features. A good example is GIMP, since for others, e.g. design is the profession. If the workflow gets broken, this is a serious issue. E.g. a flashy transparent window does cover the picture, if you add a text, options are in different places, values have to be changed in a different ways etc.. What is good for user 1 isn't good for user 2 and the reason that professionals prefer Microsoft and Apple has good reasons. In Germany many cities switched from Windows to Linux for office work, they all switched back to Windows. If there's no backwards compatibility for the data it's not for professional usage. If the workflow does change to often and in a too absurd way, it's not professional. If vendors of hardware are willing to share information, but there's not the manpower by the Linux community to write the drivers, it's not for professional usage. Half of the list now will reply, yes, but Linux is better than Windows, because ... I'm not from Microsoft, I'm a Linux only user, it's not the point what's better and what's less good. Usage and ethics are important. Choose your OS carefully and if you chose Linux, take care what's best for you as a tool. If you want to be cool, get some cool sun glasses and a funky tattoo, for dogmatism there are many nice religions. A computer is a tool and/or a toy. You'll use a different knife on the high mountain tour, than for the Christmas dinner in the restaurant. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1354032170.2827.50.camel@q
Re: how many users is enough? (was Re: Debian Installer 7.0 Beta4 release)
On Tuesday 27 November 2012 15:13:19 Beco wrote: We would have more contributors if Debian wasn't so proud of being for advanced users. But my experience is that it isn't. People are encouraged to help with developing and all the other jobs that are needed. and can get a mentor to help. Can you adduce some evidence/statistics to support your thesis that Ubuntu has a better conversion rate than Debian? Remember that Ubuntu has quite few paid developers who do it as their full-time paid job. Debian relies on volunteers, who mainly also need a day job if they want to eat. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201211271621.02263.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: how many users is enough? (was Re: Debian Installer 7.0 Beta4 release)
Don't Believe the Hype! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1354032440.2827.52.camel@q
