Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 05:58:09PM +0200, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: I wonder, maybe that mr update can be integrated in deb system, so that the git repo would be check as if it was just a line in /etc/apt/sources.list ? That would be really awesome! http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2013/08/msg00461.html -- If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130831065653.GB6244@tal
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
Hi Zeenan, I can not contribute in this area for two reasons, I am not knowledgeable in the X11, DM area, and my duties leave me little cycles to ramp this knowledge up. An additional 'may be' reason is the total lack of starting point, even the kernel when it panics gives some clues where to look for. Well someone in the GUI area would look in relevant log file I suppose but I don't have a clue what they are. I am not the kind of person who give up easily on bugs, but on this one I am totally out of the loop. I am half way about your description, my main server is still squeeze, my secondary is precise for the time being, so I can progress, I wait for a little while this way, see if a fix shows up, I would be glad to get back on wheezy for my day to day work. The nature of the problem, the number of hit on the net (linux gdm oh no something went wrong 31.400), and the abscence of a solution while most of the hits started back in April 2012, led me to think this bug is here to stay, and as I said when you loose confidence in you GUI you are reluctant to loose all your on-going work (like the BSOD era) :) ) so will see how it goes. As I said at the begining, I am almost sure that it is not debian team fault, just the questionable universal move to gdm3/dbus/nameit that is apparently not really stable. Cheers, Phi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAJOr74j+7nEhqMMxY0f+L0-=ydjei_d4ncakuyepgzgc8zm...@mail.gmail.com
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On 8/30/13, Phi Debian phi.deb...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Zeenan, I can not contribute in this area for two reasons, I am not knowledgeable in the X11, DM area, and my duties leave me little cycles to ramp this knowledge up. If you have any cycles, I, and I am sure others, will be pleased to assist with a little debugging, like using strace tool for example. You see, in your case, the bug seems very reproducible - every time you can repeat it from what I understand. So if you have even a few cycles, and you can keep a wheezy partition installed for a little tests here and there, this might be very good for wheezy. and gnome I guess.. An additional 'may be' reason is the total lack of starting point, even the kernel when it panics gives some clues where to look for. Well someone in the GUI area would look in relevant log file I suppose but I don't have a clue what they are. I am not the kind of person who give up easily on bugs, but on this one I am totally out of the loop. It is a very heavyweight tool from end-user perspective, but very powerful tool for certain type of operating program till crash debugging - strace. Shows log of system calls (etc?) up till crash point, just a few options to log to a file eg. I was sad to see my old Gnome2 desktop go, small time series network device monitors in the task bar etc etc... -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAOsGNST+nHu6Fom4_FmFzWuNEKoqgDOgrxNRmB0xVib2pG=i...@mail.gmail.com
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 8:34 AM, Zenaan Harkness z...@freedbms.net wrote: If you have any cycles, I, and I am sure others, will be pleased to assist with a little debugging, like using strace tool for example. You see, in your case, the bug seems very reproducible - every time you can repeat it from what I understand. So if you have even a few cycles, and you can keep a wheezy partition installed for a little tests here and there, this might be very good for wheezy. and gnome I guess.. Ok I'll do that I will re-install wheezy on a spare part (or in this case probaly a tiny server I have) But frankly I don't even know what process to monitor I gave the receipe for the crash in case one want to look at it. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAJOr74iFhAwq-NM3n9D-ywGM+K3A5=mry4h01zqx3qf1_2w...@mail.gmail.com
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On 8/30/13, Phi Debian phi.deb...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 8:34 AM, Zenaan Harkness z...@freedbms.net wrote: If you have any cycles, I, and I am sure others, will be pleased to assist with a little debugging, like using strace tool for example. You see, in your case, the bug seems very reproducible - every time you can repeat it from what I understand. So if you have even a few cycles, and you can keep a wheezy partition installed for a little tests here and there, this might be very good for wheezy. and gnome I guess.. Ok I'll do that I will re-install wheezy on a spare part (or in this case probaly a tiny server I have) But frankly I don't even know what process to monitor What is the program or package you install for vnc, and what do you click on or run to run it? STEP 1: find out how to run your vncserver desktop session: Then we figure out how to run your vnc server session command from a shell. Eg: vncserver :55 -geometry 1024x768 -localhost -depth 24 For the vncserver to work properly, ie to create a normal desktop session, you might need to edit ~/.vnc/xstartup to have something like the following 2 lines: unset SESSION_MANAGER exec /etc/X11/xinit/xinitrc alternatively, something like the following in ~/.vnc/xstartup xsetroot -solid -gray vncconfig -iconic xterm x-window-manager alternatively: gnome-session or (not sure if the following works sorry): ck-launch-session gnome-session STEP 1a: Test running your vncserver from a shell, and connecting to it to check, until you get it looking right, like your normal (gnome) desktop. If ~/.vnc/xstartup just starts a xterm, then try running gnome-session (or ck-launch-session gnome-session) from the xterm inside vnc desktop. STEP 2: run your vncserver: Then, for example, run the vncserver using strace, from a terminal of course. Eg kill any test vncserver you have running on the server, and now run a vncserver using strace logging (all one line): strace -fo phi.log vncserver :55 -geometry 1024x768 -localhost -depth 24 STEP 3: produce the bug: vncclient/rdp into your server vnc desktop session and kill it. After that, you should have a file phi.log, which has lots of file opens etc, and should show at the end, an idea of what happened just before the crash. I don't know who this could be sent to. If there is a bugs.debian.org bug for your bug, then perhaps attach your strace log file to that bug report, so that a developer could look at it. That's what I would do. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAOsGNSR=pkPP41Ku1bLKAqBb=_0uxlvf96sdunrqhrp8d_1...@mail.gmail.com
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
Hi Zeenan, I have streamlined the problems as follow, anybody with little HW resource and time can reporduce it. 1) Have a workable host running vbox 2) do a regular wheezy .iso netinstall in a guest (I used amd64 wheezy) 3) Log in and check all works well (generally it did) (you may log classic or regular) $ lsb_release -a No LSB modules are available. Distributor ID:Debian Description:Debian GNU/Linux 7.1 (wheezy) Release:7.1 Codename:wheezy 4) apt-get install vnc4server 5) $ vncserver -geometry 1000x1000 6) $ vncserver kill :1 At this point you have .vnc/passwd setup ok and xstartup to fix 7) place this into.vnc/ xstartup #!/bin/sh xsetroot -solid grey /usr/bin/gnome-session (here you may do gnome-session-fallback) 8) on another system do vncviewer node:1 At this point you are in a brand new workspace 9) win+alt+right-click on the top-panel bar (out of any tabs, middle of nothing) It show the custom popup [add to panel...] [Properties] [Delete this panel] click Properties, then [background] tab click [x] Solid color Kaboom, you never use this account again Well you can, from console vncserver -kill :1 rm -rf ./.config You can retry again and again until fixed :-) Cheers, Phi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAJOr74j1hArNDNKmksVXkrxzdkWsXgV0xpSU8J=rmn_a9qr...@mail.gmail.com
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On 8/30/13, Phi Debian phi.deb...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Phi, That sounds like high five :) I have streamlined the problems as follow, anybody with little HW resource and time can reporduce it. This looks like a much clearer bug report. And importantly, reproducible. Was there a Debian bug report, or just reports on the internet of this type of bug? One of the best things we users (non-developers) can do to help with a distro, is to determine a concise and reproducible procedure to recreate the bug, so a developer can have possibility to see it and fix it. So perhaps next step is see if someone on this list has insight to solve, and after a day or two, to file a bug report. Just choose a package to file bug against - vncserver I guess. Just to clarify your procedure - vbox is installed, but you are running vncserver just from host box, not inside vbox right? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAOsGNSQtjM+n6yeNdUB-8iFYhh9_JAVmVQc5pin=lcujmn5...@mail.gmail.com
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
Just to clarify your procedure - vbox is installed, but you are running vncserver just from host box, not inside vbox right? Once the vbox guest wheezy is installed and has a vcnserver runing on it, you may use any vncviewer you may have on your intranet to connect to it. my exact setup is my thin client with vncviewer on it. a host where I have vbox on it (in a computer room) I access the server with the evil vncviewer that 'pure' sysadmin on server would reject. yet it works enough to let vbox display the guest console with wheezy login screen so I can log on this one (doesn't crash) and do the sysadmin of the wheezy guest, i.e install vnc4server, tweak .vnc, start vncserver. back to my thin client i can use vncviewer to access the wheezy vncserver session. In the real life (non vbox) the path is similar, i.e a virtual console to the computer room server, a wheezy install (in my case was un squeeze update, but install would do the same) sysadmin vnc4server, .vnc, xstartup, vncserver. Then from my thinclient access my server vncsession, and crash it the same way. So the vbox path given is to avoid a bug fixer to buy a server :) Did I filled a bug report? no, the problem is knows since about a year and a half, and as I said reported thousand of time on the net, so I guessed it was already reported. Cheers, Phi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/cajor74gk87_pyspbnchcda7lq2f8kbrshi3943m_q8os5w0...@mail.gmail.com
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On 8/30/13, Phi Debian phi.deb...@gmail.com wrote: So the vbox path given is to avoid a bug fixer to buy a server :) Did I filled a bug report? no, the problem is knows since about a year and a half, and as I said reported thousand of time on the net, so I guessed it was already reported. Well may be reported for RedHat, or just to some forum not particular. This is debian though, and so if there's no bug in Debian bugs, then we cannot help Debian developers to fix the bug (unless you know one personally and communicate with him privately). If I had the bug, I would file it against either vbox or vncserver or gnome-session. If the developers think it belongs to the other package, they will change the package the bug is assigned to. Then 2 or 3 developers are aware of that bug :) I think Debian developer might not get your type of problem himself. And also, he or she is probably not reading the RedHat bugs. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caosgnsqtwugm6attmedwpyc0wcbhjxywrdk99fu9w6hfdwk...@mail.gmail.com
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
Amazingly I needed to do a check on ubuntu raring, so I quickly setup a raring guest. And as I am at it, dit the panel-properties-[background] test, and it got killed with out any 'oh no' message, so even harder to understand what happen :) I may be back to debian for raring era :) So this is more a general GUI linux world problem, all distro's are victimised by questionable bus architecture, then wanted to get as nice as MAC, and got as worth as windooze :) (just kidin, don't flame). And about opening a ticket, well why opening at debian since it is general... I am not involved enough to know the process of reporting this Cheers, Phi On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 12:11 PM, Phi Debian phi.deb...@gmail.com wrote: Just to clarify your procedure - vbox is installed, but you are running vncserver just from host box, not inside vbox right? Once the vbox guest wheezy is installed and has a vcnserver runing on it, you may use any vncviewer you may have on your intranet to connect to it. my exact setup is my thin client with vncviewer on it. a host where I have vbox on it (in a computer room) I access the server with the evil vncviewer that 'pure' sysadmin on server would reject. yet it works enough to let vbox display the guest console with wheezy login screen so I can log on this one (doesn't crash) and do the sysadmin of the wheezy guest, i.e install vnc4server, tweak .vnc, start vncserver. back to my thin client i can use vncviewer to access the wheezy vncserver session. In the real life (non vbox) the path is similar, i.e a virtual console to the computer room server, a wheezy install (in my case was un squeeze update, but install would do the same) sysadmin vnc4server, .vnc, xstartup, vncserver. Then from my thinclient access my server vncsession, and crash it the same way. So the vbox path given is to avoid a bug fixer to buy a server :) Did I filled a bug report? no, the problem is knows since about a year and a half, and as I said reported thousand of time on the net, so I guessed it was already reported. Cheers, Phi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/cajor74gs-m4vxuyamtafxfuwg0_j5+0r--dada54njohn+c...@mail.gmail.com
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On 8/30/13, Phi Debian phi.deb...@gmail.com wrote: Amazingly I needed to do a check on ubuntu raring, so I quickly setup a raring guest. And as I am at it, dit the panel-properties-[background] test, and it got killed with out any 'oh no' message, so even harder to understand what happen :) I may be back to debian for raring era :) So this is more a general GUI linux world problem, all distro's are victimised by questionable bus architecture, then wanted to get as nice as MAC, and got as worth as windooze :) (just kidin, don't flame). And about opening a ticket, well why opening at debian since it is general... Only because that is what you would like to see fixed first I guess. You expressed you like debian. I do too. Filing a bug, with a procedure that is reproducible, is one of the best ways to assist the developers to fix a bug. Eventually it goes upstream anyway... so if you filed with Centos or ArchLinux, then it would eventually get back to Debian anyway. But if you are testing the bug in Debian environment, then sensible to file with bugs.debian.org - sometimes the developer might ask (in the bug) to test another small thing, like eg strace or whatever might help him/her. I am not involved enough to know the process of reporting this I was the same when I first reported a bug. But it's easy when you get the hang of it. Just go to bugs.debian.org there is a link near the top how to report a bug. There is even a gui (explained on website) - reportbug-ng which makes it easy to automatically include info about the bug. It also provides that you can add your own information as well. If you prefer, just use the website too. Pretty straightforward after I used it first time. Cheers Zenaan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caosgnsrak4jydmmphofrdlcclngazm14u_tb-4yc-kakgpq...@mail.gmail.com
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 7:59 PM, Phi Debian phi.deb...@gmail.com wrote: [...] And about opening a ticket, well why opening at debian since it is general... A bug is never a bug without context. The more developers look at a bug, the greater chance one will be able to reproduce it, and the more information can be passed back upstream. (Which is why it bothered me when a Fedora dev once told me I should report a bug I had filed to x.org instead of to bugzilla.fedoraproject.org. That was just wrong. Sending a bug upstream is part of what devs are supposed to do.) I am not involved enough to know the process of reporting this I need to check, too. Haven't started reporting bugs here. http://www.debian.org/Bugs/Reporting http://www.debian.org/Bugs/ -- Joel Rees -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAAr43iPC4gW3DKRm7hZt5ohnGd2uu6yxEzkXuoxjgFP=opw...@mail.gmail.com
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
git pull/make/make install There's a better way of building packages, but I'm short in time now, so at least checkinstall usually does build a primitive package, IOW I would run git pull (perhaps ./configure) make checkinstall assumed it needs to be compiled by make. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1377878574.3536.182.camel@archlinux
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 17:35:39 +0200 berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: Le 30.08.2013 05:04, Phi Debian a écrit : Hi Gary, Thanx you for getting back to the original post :) while I admit I did learn a bit of history about distro, display manager, etc... :) [snip] And what about cloning the git of vncserver, install development dependencies, and configure/make/make install? That would mean you would have fixes from vnc server's team, so that bug would be absent like in Ubuntu, and you could stay on Debian. There should be no big conflicts, since usually make install will install in /usr/local/. The only thing I can think about is that you will need to update it by hand, with git pull/make/make install. (and people here could know how to suppress that problem, but not me :) ) You could use 'myrepos' to control the git sessions, when to update your local repo its just a simple 'mr update' and let it roll. Makes life a lot simpler :) Sharon. -- A taste of linux = http://www.sharons.org.uk efever = http://www.efever.blogspot.com/ efever = http://sharon04.livejournal.com/ Debian testing, Fluxbox 1.3.5, LibreOffice 4.1.0.4 Registered Linux user 334501 signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
Le 30.08.2013 12:59, Phi Debian a écrit : Amazingly I needed to do a check on ubuntu raring, so I quickly setup a raring guest. And as I am at it, dit the panel-properties-[background] test, and it got killed with out any 'oh no' message, so even harder to understand what happen :) I may be back to debian for raring era :) So this is more a general GUI linux world problem, all distro's are victimised by questionable bus architecture, then wanted to get as nice as MAC, and got as worth as windooze :) (just kidin, don't flame). And about opening a ticket, well why opening at debian since it is general... I am not involved enough to know the process of reporting this Cheers, Phi Debian have a tool named reportbug, which should be installed by default: http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=reportbugsearchon=namessection=all Maybe you could use it. I did once, for a package on which I discovered a dependency bug (one of the real dependencies was not in aptitude, so the program crashed on my minimal install of Debian.). It is a command-line tool, but it uses a sequence of questions quite clear, if you want my opinion. It seem there is another one, reportbug-ng, but never tried it. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/92026f55ad5f85ac1573ba584...@neutralite.org
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
Le 30.08.2013 17:55, Sharon Kimble a écrit : On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 17:35:39 +0200 berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: Le 30.08.2013 05:04, Phi Debian a écrit : Hi Gary, Thanx you for getting back to the original post :) while I admit I did learn a bit of history about distro, display manager, etc... :) [snip] And what about cloning the git of vncserver, install development dependencies, and configure/make/make install? That would mean you would have fixes from vnc server's team, so that bug would be absent like in Ubuntu, and you could stay on Debian. There should be no big conflicts, since usually make install will install in /usr/local/. The only thing I can think about is that you will need to update it by hand, with git pull/make/make install. (and people here could know how to suppress that problem, but not me :) ) You could use 'myrepos' to control the git sessions, when to update your local repo its just a simple 'mr update' and let it roll. Makes life a lot simpler :) Sharon. I known that someone would know way to enhance that :D I wonder, maybe that mr update can be integrated in deb system, so that the git repo would be check as if it was just a line in /etc/apt/sources.list ? That would be really awesome! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/8ddd309e30365a948848f72f10de8...@neutralite.org
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 18:02:54 +0200 Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: git pull/make/make install There's a better way of building packages, but I'm short in time now, so at least checkinstall usually does build a primitive package, IOW I would run git pull (perhaps ./configure) make checkinstall assumed it needs to be compiled by make. Its even simpler, 'mr update; cd ~/git/foobar; sudo checkinstall -D', and just let checkinstall do all the building and install its *.deb that its just created. If checkinstall bails out you can easily see what the problem is, and hopefully resolve it. I'm all in favour of simplifying life! :) Sharon. -- A taste of linux = http://www.sharons.org.uk efever = http://www.efever.blogspot.com/ efever = http://sharon04.livejournal.com/ Debian testing, Fluxbox 1.3.5, LibreOffice 4.1.0.4 Registered Linux user 334501 signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
Le 30.08.2013 05:04, Phi Debian a écrit : Hi Gary, Thanx you for getting back to the original post :) while I admit I did learn a bit of history about distro, display manager, etc... :) [snip] And what about cloning the git of vncserver, install development dependencies, and configure/make/make install? That would mean you would have fixes from vnc server's team, so that bug would be absent like in Ubuntu, and you could stay on Debian. There should be no big conflicts, since usually make install will install in /usr/local/. The only thing I can think about is that you will need to update it by hand, with git pull/make/make install. (and people here could know how to suppress that problem, but not me :) ) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/3d5655d61b27ea1c46f1e90928ee9...@neutralite.org
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 at 07:18:57PM +0100, Joe wrote: On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 21:04:40 +1200 Chris Bannister cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz wrote: Hint: unstable does not mean buggy. In theory. And in practice. All software has bugs, and hopefully most of the showstoppers are caught before the package passes to testing, but that is not the reason unstable is called unstable. LXDE has been uninstallable for weeks after being broken by an update and the Iceweasel in the repository has four grave bugs. There's a bug somewhere systemy, I think in GTK, which makes a number of scroll bars misbehave. Unstable was, IIRC, referred to as the developers playground. Synaptic has been occasionally freezing, sometimes taking the whole X display with it, for some weeks. Is this just for you? As an unstable user[1], the onus is on you to help track down these issues. [1] Also, can be misinterpreted. :) -- If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130829061215.GD22690@tal
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 21:35:24 +0200 Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: On Wed, 2013-08-28 at 19:18 +0100, Joe wrote: I think in GTK, which makes a number of scroll bars misbehave. There is a bug still present for current stable releases from upstream. Again, I use the term stable here for the official stable releases from _upstream_, not for Debian stable. Debian, even Debians experimental usually is behind official stable releases from upstream. However, the known bug is, that sometimes the mouse wheel doesn't work, when the cursor isn't above a scrollbar, but e.g. inside a window. No, this is also a known one, also from upstream: when the mouse is clicked below the thumb in a scroll bar, the thumb jumps to the mouse pointer instead of scrolling one page. Right clicking does scroll by one page, and I thought this was an intentional change of user interface, but it isn't, and it will be fixed with low priority. -- Joe -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130829083111.60882...@jretrading.com
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 18:12:15 +1200 Chris Bannister cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz wrote: On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 at 07:18:57PM +0100, Joe wrote: On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 21:04:40 +1200 Chris Bannister cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz wrote: Hint: unstable does not mean buggy. In theory. And in practice. All software has bugs, and hopefully most of the showstoppers are caught before the package passes to testing, but that is not the reason unstable is called unstable. Yes, I know that, I've been using it for years. There is definitely a tendency for it to be buggy, as it takes relatively new upstream releases. LXDE has been uninstallable for weeks after being broken by an update and the Iceweasel in the repository has four grave bugs. There's a bug somewhere systemy, I think in GTK, which makes a number of scroll bars misbehave. Unstable was, IIRC, referred to as the developers playground. More so in the months after a stable release... Synaptic has been occasionally freezing, sometimes taking the whole X display with it, for some weeks. Is this just for you? As an unstable user[1], the onus is on you to help track down these issues. [1] Also, can be misinterpreted. :) Probably just me, I have reported it but the person looking into it had trouble reproducing it. It isn't a segfault, it leaves nothing in any log, and it only happens after quite a few mouse clicks. I only use Synaptic when there's an upgrade logjam, so I don't see it often. It happened last night, and about four or five days ago. It looks to me, a layman, like some kind of multi-tasking cooperation problem, where Synaptic either refuses to take the baton or refuses to pass it on. Either way, a killall Synaptic from another terminal clears things. -- Joe -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130829090356.7f318...@jretrading.com
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On 27/08/13 01:50 AM, Phi Debian wrote: Hi All, I use debian and gnome since well the begining... I have it on many nodes, but specially on some server, where many guests run. I was on squeeze sine the begining of squeeze, and decided to try wheezy. All the upgrade went smooth, and all worked like a charm, so thank you for all the people who made this possible. I can cope with the questionable gdm3 and all things around, but doing GUI on the rudimentary VGA is not the main purpose of this server, yet it worked, so no problem related with HW graphical board FW. I start a vnc server for my account (vnc4server), and do the setup of xstart the various way, the simplest being starting the gnome-session in there. Then right click on top-panel--property, color setup plain solid, and kaboom, your vnc session is no longer available , oh no message anybody knows by now, goolge it and it give massive useless solutions. I tried all sort of trick givin on the net, rm user account redo (that works I can re start a vnc server and connect) yet still panel setup crash, I tried all sort of things with dbus, socket, install tons of useless packages. Well, desesperate and after loosing a full day on it, I tried ubuntu, and it cure. It come with its load of problems too, unity and all that jazz, but all is workable around in a hour, going back to gnome classic is doable. So I think it is an adieu for debian It is miserable that all the work done by valuable volunteers who are crafting a perfect OS for development with nice packaging, and all the test that goes with, just be ruined by a tiny questionalbe bits, but very visible indeed, the GUI. Well may be this is just the end of an era, may be only .com can produce valid OS and .org is fading, sad day. I still have another server to setup, I'll monitor the activity here for a while in case someone has a solution for vnc4server setup on wheezy, with the basic test thart works, the basic test beeing right-click on top-panel--properties--[background]--[x] solid color-slide [style] Cheers, Phi I don't even understand why you are trying to do what you are doing. Why run a GUI on a server? If you want to run GUI applications on the sever, why not do X forwarding? That way you get to use your remote machine for what it is presumably best at - handling the GUI - while letting the server do the crunching. Anyway, it doesn't appear that you're complaining about Debian so much as about a problem with the VNC server. Have you tried a different VNC server? There are lots out there and choosing a different one is certainly a lot easier than installing a different OS. Meanwhile I continue to use Debian/Wheezy on all the servers I look after. As you mentioned, the upgrades go smoothly and it works well. Of course, I will admit I don't use a GUI on any of the servers nor do I see a need to do so. When I need to connect to one, I use SSH which is simple and secure. Moreover, forwarding X through an SSH tunnel is fairly straightforward if you need to do it. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/521f8aab.6070...@velcom.ca
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On 8/30/13, Gary Dale garyd...@velcom.ca wrote: On 27/08/13 01:50 AM, Phi Debian wrote: I use debian and gnome since well the begining... I have it on many nodes, but specially on some server, where many guests run. I was on squeeze sine the begining of squeeze, and decided to try wheezy. I can cope with the questionable gdm3 and all things around, but doing GUI on the rudimentary VGA is not the main purpose of this server, yet it worked, so no problem related with HW graphical board FW. I start a vnc server for my account (vnc4server), and do the setup of xstart the various way, the simplest being starting the gnome-session in there. Then right click on top-panel--property, color setup plain solid, and kaboom, your vnc session is no longer available , oh no message anybody knows by now, goolge it and it give massive useless solutions. I don't even understand why you are trying to do what you are doing. Why run a GUI on a server? If you want to run GUI applications on the sever, why not do X forwarding? That way you get to use your remote machine for what it is presumably best at - handling the GUI - while letting the server do the crunching. VNC gives stateful gui session. X does not have that. VNC is like gnu screen, for X. Similar to RDP. It means he can connect at local server (gui) console, as well as from remote workstation/desktop (which yes is presumably best at handling gui). As to why run a gui on a server at all? Perhaps: gadmin-samba Sadly I have never found samba to be easy to set up. I edit files mostly. I sometimes try gadmin-samba. I've read lots of man pages and docs. Never easy to set up. I still have not understood properly the options I need to understand for my small ngo network, and I've been doing this for over 5 years. I'm sure OP has his own reasons though :) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caosgnssreuxh8m5f+jabijax92lyzsxnh+dmuwbsxfcvs9o...@mail.gmail.com
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
Hi Gary, Thanx you for getting back to the original post :) while I admit I did learn a bit of history about distro, display manager, etc... :) Why I am using GUI on servers? Well because I am a big lazy man, having done all my career on unix so far, and I don't have time to learn all the CUI api's to handle a server. Basic things as network setting, disc partitioning, guest setup, firewall setting (for distro with firewall) etc, I don't have time, to learn it all. Now you made a point if I am a fan of gparted I better have it export DISPLAY. I approached linux via my laptop, and got acustomed by GUI click click sys admin, quick install, quick setup. Yet I dont need all the 'things' that come up with GUI DM like for instance I never cared to get libreoffice, and I never could remove it without removing all GNOME, I accepted it :) So basically I open a vnc server session on the server that is located in a computer room, I run vbox there and do all the guest admin from click click because I am ignorant and can't do the vboxmanage things as quick as click to get my guest setup. I got to say here that I am not an IT manager, and I don't have thousand of server with thousand of guest to manage, just enough guest to get my software developed on all sort of linux/distro (rh, suse, ubuntu, debian) and some other other bsd, solaris. You can derive that for any other kind of sys admin that I don't know how to do without GUI. But that's little work, then come my development that I host on the server too, I got my emacs (many win), and debugger session... Occasionally I need a package, again too ignorant and too lazy to learn, so I run synaptic, dunno how it work but I give a keyword I find the package, no clu how to do this in CUI mode, some other time I need to browse the net and DL a software, or obtain a git ref, I then have a browser runing on the server, etc... In many case to me, not having a GUI on the server is a pain, though I admit, all can be done CUI. Then you speak about having the remote machine doing what it is best at, i.e doing GUI, the answer is that I have many spot where I can work (design kernel code), my office, my place, my girlfriend place, and the place I visit, family, vacation, etc... For all this I adopted a simple scheme, vpn+vnc, meaning my working place is just a thinclient for the sedentary spot (office, home) and engineering worksation laptop for travling (big display).The thinclient is very capable, I can get up to 4 big display on it at the moment I use only 3, so basically 1 display is my server where I do SW dev, another display is used the corporate PC (that I hosted as a guest on 1 server), and another display I use for various things like reading more .pdf doccos.. Now my work cycle is simple say I'm at the office with my thinclient 3 display, time is up, got to run home, the procedure is simple just switch off my thinclient, in a middle of a C statement I was typing, the emacs autosave will do its jobs. At home, boot home my thinclient (2 display this one), and resume instantly my work exactly where I left it, could be a single steping in a debug session. I got fly to my family place no problemo got my worstation laptop, vpn+vnc resume were I left andafter a 10h trip can resume my emacs or gdb where I left it. Got my laptop stollen, no big deal this is just material things, no IP on the the laptop just a minimal linux a vnc client a vpn client and that's all nothing to stoll here no information lost either, the 300Gb or so disc I got there was never used, only the couple of Gb needed by a simple debian desktop. So you see each one develop its own way to work, I never have to deal with long time to boot up, all my nodes (phys or virt) are in the computer room always on, I just VNC to them and I work. So now to be more precise, I should have not say that I got debian on servers, you are right, my 'machine' are used as desktop, though some of my desktop are 'server' in the HW sense, it is not laptop, it is not tower desktop, but rackable machine with 32 processors, and 64Gb main memory so what I am inclined to call tht a server, while I use this as desktop I agry. No on the purist edge, I could still manage this server (well two of them because one can replace the other in case of HW failure ) I could have managed this two node as pure server with ssh only access to them and have my SW dev done in a guest that would display its screens via vnc, but as I said, admin those are not my prefered task the day, and it is only a small number of server (my 2 main, plus a couple of other crash'n'burn) So when I decided to move to wheezy, after a couple of try in guest that were running ok, I did select the less used server, (my secondary backup) took a deep breth and did the bungee jump. It went sooth as I said, so the work was cleanly prepared on the debian distro side. So as usual I appreciated and measured the job done for this by the comunity. But then the bug shows
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On 8/30/13, Phi Debian phi.deb...@gmail.com wrote: Well I need to move forward and get a more recent linux as squeeze, I did try ubuntu and it worked, same vnc4server, got some cycle about how to eliminate unity, how to 'fallback' gnome and get my desktop customised my way. So as some said, watever works, I moved, but after all this years on debian, I felt a bit sad that it can be destroyed by the gnome3 chain (again no finger pointing, dunno what wrong there, but the complexity is so that it never has been fixed) go no option but leave, because I can't stay on squeeze (for verious reasons), and I can't miss vnc4server running. So I move, not too far though I still have my apt-get on ubuntu. If someone come with a fix for the trivial test case, fresh wheezy install vnc4server (no need to try anohter one, it as proved to be good on ubuntu), and from a vnclient do a simple top panel properties, background tab select solid color then slide style it is enough to definitly crahs you server to never be able to restart it. If you are not able to spend the time to assist (if there is someone to hear) the bug-squashing, and you cannot wait because you need your production servers running, and there is no quick option here, then it seems you have no option but to leave Debian. To me it seems a little sad that you get all these years on debian but are not able to contribute toward fixing of this bug - but sounds like your circumstances do not allow this, which is unfortunate for Debian. Ubuntu is not too far removed (yet) from Debian, so should basically satisfy you I imagine. Good luck Zenaan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAOsGNSSBiuQ_O1nON_vGF=cmctkksagah81tkjvaefgnymn...@mail.gmail.com
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 01:29:58PM +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: I explained that you can't do that, if you experience a dependency hell or an unstable environment. To contribute that way users and developers need stable up-to-date releases of software + sometimes newer releases than the current stable releases. Debian doesn't provide a stable branch that is up-to-date, in sync with stable releases from upstream, even the unstable branches of Debian don't provide this. Your confusion over the words stable and unstable certainly doesn't help here. Does that paragraph really make sense to you? Hint: unstable does not mean buggy. -- If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130828090440.GB8086@tal
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On Wed, 2013-08-28 at 21:04 +1200, Chris Bannister wrote: On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 01:29:58PM +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: I explained that you can't do that, if you experience a dependency hell or an unstable environment. To contribute that way users and developers need stable up-to-date releases of software + sometimes newer releases than the current stable releases. Debian doesn't provide a stable branch that is up-to-date, in sync with stable releases from upstream, even the unstable branches of Debian don't provide this. Your confusion over the words stable and unstable certainly doesn't help here. Does that paragraph really make sense to you? Hint: unstable does not mean buggy. This isn't about Debian stable and Debian unstable, it's about the need to have an environment that has got the needed stable releases from upstream installed. You need this, when you e.g. want to contribute to large projects such as GNOME or some other projects that depends on tons of libraries. As I already explained, even Debian experimental does not comes with the current stable branches from upstream. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1377692243.705.23.camel@archlinux
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On Tue, 27 Aug 2013 11:05:34 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
On Tue, 2013-08-27 at 11:56 +0300, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote:
http://news.slashdot.org/story/13/05/08/2038243/ubuntu-developing-its-own-package-format-installer
Wow, thank you for the link. Than Ubuntu in the future will cause much
more issues, when you talk to upstream, than they already do by their
disgusting policy to split packages nowadays.
You should read the Colin Watson post (linked to on Slashdot) rather
than simply going by the sensationalist headline and paragraph.
The last line of the Slashdot post even points out that Ubuntu doesn't
intend this package installer to replace dpkg and apt.
If you read the ubuntu-devel post you'll see the priority for this
system at present is for Ubuntu phone/tablet app packages.
Imagine that I have Ubuntu on my phone and that you have a music
application that you want to install. Do you really think that I'd want
you to sprinkle files all over my filesystem or would I want you to
install to /apps/ralph/music-app/{bin,lib,...}?
Ubuntu splits packages because Debian does. And Debian splits packages
for various reasons.
In the case of nfs, Debian splits upstream's nfs-utils into nfs-common
and nfs-kernel-server. The reason for this is that Debian's policy is to
start a daemon automatically if it's installed. So you install
nfs-common is you just want an nfs client and you install both if you
want an nfs server. On RHEL/Fedora, you install nfs-utils and if you
want to use the nfs server you run chkconfig and service or systemctl to
enable and start it.
In the case of grub, Debian splits uptream's grub into many packages.
On my EFI laptop:
# dpkg-query -W -f '${Status}\t${Package}\n' grub* | grep ^install
install ok installedgrub-common
install ok installedgrub-efi
install ok installedgrub-efi-amd64
install ok installedgrub-efi-amd64-bin
install ok installedgrub2-common
Had I had a BIOS laptop, I would've had grub-pc rather than three
grub-efi packages.
grub-common is a dependency of both grub1 and grub2 (bizarrely in the
case of grub1 since it seems to install grub2 files).
grub2-common is a dependency of grub-efi-amd4, grub-efi-ia32, and grub-pc.
grub-efi is a dummy package.
I'm not sure why grub-efi-amd64 and grub-efi-amd64-bin are separate
packages, probably because grub-efi-amd64-bin installs grub modules only.
When you choose a distro, you implicitly accept its policies...
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Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On Wed, 2013-08-28 at 11:19 -0400, Tom H wrote: You should read the Colin Watson post (linked to on Slashdot) rather than simply going by the sensationalist headline and paragraph. I did read it. I accept the policies of Debian and Ubuntu ;). I'm aware about their advantages and their drawbacks and I'm aware about the advantages and drawbacks of distros with other policies. Ok, I understand that my opinion that Debian only is a good distro, but that there is no best distro is unwanted. I agree with all of you, Debian is the best distro and regarding to the above quote, yes including this to Ubuntu and seemingly the same idea Lennert has got, is very good. I'm completely mistaken. Debian is the best distro! Nothing can compare to Debian! Desktop environments and package managements should take more care about tablet PC and less about real production environments. Anything else I should say to satisfy Debian users mailing list? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1377704319.705.101.camel@archlinux
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On Tue, 27 Aug 2013 20:30:07 +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote: Fedora/RedHat has strict libre adherence for since forever. Debian has social contract forever. These advantages are definitive! These distributions are therefore superior! They are definitively better! Debian has 40,000 software packages, more than any other, and makes Debian definitively better than other distros. So even on utility metric, Debian is better! Debian runs on 12 architectures. Definitively better! Pick your metric Ralph! Ralph might have different metrics than you do. I certainly have. For example, for my parents' laptops, I couldn't care less about strict libre adherence, Debian's social contract, 40k packages, or non-x86 architectures. All that I care about is that I can install a distro and set it up as quickly and easily as possible (including any needed proprietary software), so I use Ubuntu. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/521e1b3a.4060...@gmail.com
Re: Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
Dear Conrad, Regarding the Debian's advantage and disadvantage, any one can point but comparing two persons, their ideology is not that simple. Richard stall man stood for a nobel cause. If he hasn't taken such a project called GNU, we may have used only freeBSD and its kernel and may not be Linux. This is because Linux is just a kernel. Kernel may be compared to brain of a OS but it is definitely useless without the other parts of the system. GNU can use BSD/hurd/Linux kernel and is working with all the three. Currently Debian is supplying all the three. I agree, Linux gained more fame but that doesn't mean, you can very well go and disrespect others. Richard just stresses the point, we will not be in a position to know what is being done by the proprietary software in your system. If you are willing to go with it, no body stops you. I would say better than skills, we should value other's ideology and their noble contributions. I am in no way arguing that Linus have done less. All good for the IT world. Cheers, Balamurugan R On 08/27/2013 08:37 PM, Conrad Nelson wrote: On 08/27/2013 07:22 AM, Ralf Mardorf wrote: On Tue, 2013-08-27 at 11:55 +, Curt wrote: What a traitor (or not)! arch traitor ;) since I prefer Arch Linux and my explanations might be a traitor's kiss, since I referred to the KISS principle. I am still a big Arch fan myself. But after a couple years I found myself drawn to Debian Testing as the Arch developers (ESPECIALLY Allan McRae, the current maintainer for Pacman.) have begun to take a fiercely arrogant attitude and a we know better than you, so shut up tone toward anyone who would question some of their decisions. The last couple major changes in Arch seemed like changes for changes sake as well (systemd, while I really do love it a lot, just doesn't seem to fit with how I understood Arch was supposed to work. And I still believe to this day that the old BSD-like sysv setup they had before was loads simpler to configure.) And I still don't understand the point of the lib/bin merges they are doing, aside from the fact it's a blatant violation of FHS. I used Gentoo for a bit, but its problem is the opposite of Arch: Whereas Arch is making pointless, unnecessary changes, Gentoo seems to be pretty stagnant and stuck in its ways. Gentoo actually is a distribution I actually think would benefit very well with systemd. OpenRC, though its goals are laudable, I've only ever seen it basically just become a sysv-init clone that accomplishes next to nothing new. My other gripe about Gentoo was it just got to be just too much work just for basic system upkeep. The USE flags were incredibly useful and powerful for customizing my packages and how my system would globally work, but all too often setting them globally would just result in Portage griping and refusing to install software, and setting USE flags individually per hundreds of packages is way too much work, effectively meaning Portage ended up getting in the way of what was supposed to be its own most powerful feature. I think Debian works pretty well. It's not as flexible or powerful as Arch or Gentoo, perhaps, but it's definitely better for servers than Arch or Gentoo. But it's not without its flaws. I think Debian's obsession with free software conformity is, indeed, a weakness. Before you blast me, I'm just going to point out I subscribe more to the Torvalds school of thought on open source, NOT the Stallman school. Richard Stallman over-politicizes/idealizes the idea of open source, tries to make it almost a moral/spiritual thing in a context and industry where moral/spiritual choice is as a whole, irrelevant and actually pretty counterproductive. For a long time (Until recently, in fact.), Debian desktop users had to use third party repositories just to get decent multimedia support into Debian. Why? Because Debian developers questioned whether over half of the codecs most people needed were free enough. I think my opinion is made worse by the fact I just plain do not like Richard Stallman both as a person or as a representative of the FOSS world. And despite all of Debian's good faith efforts to try to conform with Richard's idea of what free means he still basically regards Debian (And pretty much all Linux.) with contempt. This is probably less to do with whether or not Debian complies with his free ideas and more for the fact the guy is pedal-to-the-metal bitter and oh-so-very jealous that Linux succeeded in every place GNU failed (Such as actually being an operating system.), which is why he insists on the GNU/Linux moniker, which is utter nonsense (Using the GNU toolchain doesn't magically make Linux GNU, and he uses some of the most insane logic to try and justify a pretty transparent attempt to take credit for Linux's success from those who actually DID make Linux a success. It is a crying shame the Debian people, in their futile
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On Wed, 2013-08-28 at 11:46 -0400, Tom H wrote: I use Ubuntu :) then you likely will run into the same issue like me and better pretend that you don not use the best distro for your needs, since Debian is the best distro for everybody. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1377706738.705.121.camel@archlinux
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 21:04:40 +1200 Chris Bannister cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz wrote: On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 01:29:58PM +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: I explained that you can't do that, if you experience a dependency hell or an unstable environment. To contribute that way users and developers need stable up-to-date releases of software + sometimes newer releases than the current stable releases. Debian doesn't provide a stable branch that is up-to-date, in sync with stable releases from upstream, even the unstable branches of Debian don't provide this. Your confusion over the words stable and unstable certainly doesn't help here. Does that paragraph really make sense to you? Hint: unstable does not mean buggy. In theory. LXDE has been uninstallable for weeks after being broken by an update and the Iceweasel in the repository has four grave bugs. There's a bug somewhere systemy, I think in GTK, which makes a number of scroll bars misbehave. Synaptic has been occasionally freezing, sometimes taking the whole X display with it, for some weeks. And they're just the ones I'm aware of at the moment... no real showstoppers, but definitely buggy. -- Joe -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130828191857.61a2e...@jretrading.com
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On Wed, 2013-08-28 at 19:18 +0100, Joe wrote: I think in GTK, which makes a number of scroll bars misbehave. There is a bug still present for current stable releases from upstream. Again, I use the term stable here for the official stable releases from _upstream_, not for Debian stable. Debian, even Debians experimental usually is behind official stable releases from upstream. However, the known bug is, that sometimes the mouse wheel doesn't work, when the cursor isn't above a scrollbar, but e.g. inside a window. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1377718524.29168.19.camel@archlinux
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On 8/27/13, Phi Debian phi.deb...@gmail.com wrote: Hi All, I use debian and gnome since well the begining... I have it on many nodes, but specially on some server, where many guests run. I was on squeeze sine the begining of squeeze, and decided to try wheezy. Ubuntu is Debian snapshot, so much of muchness... In both cases, GUI is choosable. You install server with Unity/Gnome3 ? For server, perhaps simpler XFCE4? Or add custom repo and install Cinnamon or MATE desktops - there was a big thread on just that here on debian-user in the last month I think... There are many lightweight window managers, simple and complex toolbars - just mix and match for a lightweight server gui yes? I went to Ubuntu first in 6.04, then 8.04, then never happy to upgrade from there, so came back to Debian recently (last year), because of Unity interface I don't like. So now I use XFCE4. There are some dissatisfactory things these days. Gnome2 just worked - and I could customize it in just the way I wanted. But XFCE with some scripts and things here and there, and it's acceptable. This is primary workstation. For my various servers, I install _no_ gui. All remote admin. If I had a physical server with eg VGA console, I would either just go framebuffer and terminal, or *possibly* xfce. Really, server terminal should be extremely temporary and brief affair - just enough to get networking back up when you firetruck up, and get back to your primary admin workstation. At least, that's how I do things... or would do things if I had a server with a console :) I keep my server networking as simple and/ or static as possible though .. to minimise physical access requirements to server; common sense. All the upgrade went smooth, and all worked like a charm, so thank you for all the people who made this possible. I can cope with the questionable gdm3 and all things around, but doing GUI on the rudimentary VGA is not the main purpose of this server, yet it worked, so no problem related with HW graphical board FW. I start a vnc server for my account (vnc4server), and do the setup of xstart the various way, the simplest being starting the gnome-session in there. Then right click on top-panel--property, color setup plain solid, and kaboom, your vnc session is no longer available , oh no message anybody knows by now, goolge it and it give massive useless solutions. Since you are talking server, and VNC, then have you disabled 3D, disabled effects etc? I don't know, I don't run GUI on servers, but if I did, that would be first thing I would do, if I for some strange reason ended up with a modern desktop on my server :) I tried all sort of trick givin on the net, rm user account redo (that works I can re start a vnc server and connect) yet still panel setup crash, I tried all sort of things with dbus, socket, install tons of useless packages. Did you try different vnc servers? eg tightvncserver? x11vnc? Did you try different vnc clients? there are a few. Well, desesperate and after loosing a full day on it, I tried ubuntu, and it cure. It come with its load of problems too, unity and all that jazz, but all is workable around in a hour, going back to gnome classic is doable. So I think it is an adieu for debian It is miserable I agree - it would be _very_ miserable day to have to leave Debian. When I came back last year, it was like coming home to parents for Christmas after many years away... too many years away.. Well may be this is just the end of an era, may be only .com can produce valid OS and .org is fading, sad day. Just a bug from sound of it. Probably fixed in a week. If high importance/ money value servers, then perhaps you could find a Debian-support contract company? I still have another server to setup, I'll monitor the activity here You do have test deployment-equivalent server don't you? Or some test environment for testing your upgrades? Anyway Phi, good luck Zenaan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caosgnsrhr8hu6hkzlzam-ekr0k0ajggjdy+deyqbszkeces...@mail.gmail.com
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On Tue, 2013-08-27 at 18:07 +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote: For server, perhaps simpler XFCE4? Xfce or LXDE are a good idea. Or add custom repo and install Cinnamon or MATE desktops Have you ever tested Cinnamon and MATE? Nobody should consider that one of them can be called a quasi continued GNOME2, or that they are usable for a stable production environment. I'm a Xfce user and installed both for testing purpose. I went to Ubuntu first in 6.04, then 8.04, then never happy to upgrade from there, so came back to Debian recently (last year), because of Unity interface I don't like. There are Ubuntu teams such as the Xubuntu team. Xfce users better go with Xubuntu or Ubuntu Studio. So now I use XFCE4. There are some dissatisfactory things these days. Gnome2 just worked - and I could customize it in just the way I wanted. But XFCE with some scripts and things here and there, and it's acceptable. This is primary workstation. I agree and Xfce4 is much closer to GNOME2 than Cinnamon and Mate are. I agree - it would be _very_ miserable day to have to leave Debian. When I came back last year, it was like coming home to parents for Christmas after many years away... too many years away.. In my experiences versatility is the best thing, IOW don't consider a distro to be your golden calve, use the distro that fit best to your needs. Once you're used too different package managements etc. it's easy to switch the distro whenever needed. I always have different distros installed. At the moment Arch Linux fit best to my needs and can be most easiest configured to my needs. If this should change I even don't need to install another Linux, they're already installed and at least two different distros are maintained on my machine. 2 Cents, Ralf -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1377592415.724.13.camel@archlinux
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
Hi Zeenan, Yes I did this move an the 'less used' server, not really crash'n'burn but still ok to try yhr move there first. Yes I used gnome-classic-2D I used minimalist gnome setup, only 1 main-panel on the right, no workspace, no other pannel I have a permenant vnc session on the server (trusted network) and I do most of the tiny things with GUI, else cui for stuff like NW, iscsi, etc... Yes I choose ubuntu as the less disorientating choice after many many years on debian, next chice would have been mint, etc... I don't go xfce because again I have very litle time to customize thing, and learning how to script XFCE is out of my time bufget though I exploded it with vnc on debian :) What I liked with old gnome, was the custom can be done without learning anything, drag drop panels, click on color that suite you, focus follow mouse was trivial, etc Well I learn a bit about gconf editor and I am about done on ubuntu... So I wait a bit see if I can stay on debian (my prefered choice for historical reasons) Thanx for your help. Cheers, Phi On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 10:07 AM, Zenaan Harkness z...@freedbms.net wrote: On 8/27/13, Phi Debian phi.deb...@gmail.com wrote: Hi All, I use debian and gnome since well the begining... I have it on many nodes, but specially on some server, where many guests run. I was on squeeze sine the begining of squeeze, and decided to try wheezy. Ubuntu is Debian snapshot, so much of muchness... In both cases, GUI is choosable. You install server with Unity/Gnome3 ? For server, perhaps simpler XFCE4? Or add custom repo and install Cinnamon or MATE desktops - there was a big thread on just that here on debian-user in the last month I think... There are many lightweight window managers, simple and complex toolbars - just mix and match for a lightweight server gui yes? I went to Ubuntu first in 6.04, then 8.04, then never happy to upgrade from there, so came back to Debian recently (last year), because of Unity interface I don't like. So now I use XFCE4. There are some dissatisfactory things these days. Gnome2 just worked - and I could customize it in just the way I wanted. But XFCE with some scripts and things here and there, and it's acceptable. This is primary workstation. For my various servers, I install _no_ gui. All remote admin. If I had a physical server with eg VGA console, I would either just go framebuffer and terminal, or *possibly* xfce. Really, server terminal should be extremely temporary and brief affair - just enough to get networking back up when you firetruck up, and get back to your primary admin workstation. At least, that's how I do things... or would do things if I had a server with a console :) I keep my server networking as simple and/ or static as possible though .. to minimise physical access requirements to server; common sense. All the upgrade went smooth, and all worked like a charm, so thank you for all the people who made this possible. I can cope with the questionable gdm3 and all things around, but doing GUI on the rudimentary VGA is not the main purpose of this server, yet it worked, so no problem related with HW graphical board FW. I start a vnc server for my account (vnc4server), and do the setup of xstart the various way, the simplest being starting the gnome-session in there. Then right click on top-panel--property, color setup plain solid, and kaboom, your vnc session is no longer available , oh no message anybody knows by now, goolge it and it give massive useless solutions. Since you are talking server, and VNC, then have you disabled 3D, disabled effects etc? I don't know, I don't run GUI on servers, but if I did, that would be first thing I would do, if I for some strange reason ended up with a modern desktop on my server :) I tried all sort of trick givin on the net, rm user account redo (that works I can re start a vnc server and connect) yet still panel setup crash, I tried all sort of things with dbus, socket, install tons of useless packages. Did you try different vnc servers? eg tightvncserver? x11vnc? Did you try different vnc clients? there are a few. Well, desesperate and after loosing a full day on it, I tried ubuntu, and it cure. It come with its load of problems too, unity and all that jazz, but all is workable around in a hour, going back to gnome classic is doable. So I think it is an adieu for debian It is miserable I agree - it would be _very_ miserable day to have to leave Debian. When I came back last year, it was like coming home to parents for Christmas after many years away... too many years away.. Well may be this is just the end of an era, may be only .com can produce valid OS and .org is fading, sad day. Just a bug from sound of it. Probably fixed in a week. If high importance/ money value servers, then perhaps you could find a Debian-support contract company? I still have another server to setup, I'll monitor
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On Tue, 2013-08-27 at 10:40 +0200, Phi Debian wrote: What I liked with old gnome, was the custom can be done without learning anything, drag drop panels, click on color that suite you, focus follow mouse was trivial, etc If it was only this, than you'll be more satisfied with using Xfce4, than with the original GNOME2. Xfce4 is missing some GNOME2 stuff, but what you want here does Xfce4 much better than GNOME2 did. Note, I still have a Linux with GNOME2 installed and can compare it with Xfce4. There is no learning curve for you when you want to set up fonts for GTK and QT apps, Xfce does this better, to chose colors etc. can be done much easier using Xfce4. Xfce4 suffers from other things, e.g. the editor, the file manager, no MUA, but you can use gedit, nemo, evolution with Xfce4 ;). No dconf, gconf etc. is needed. Scripts aren't needed for what you want to get. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1377593812.724.21.camel@archlinux
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On 2013-08-27 11:07, Zenaan Harkness wrote: Hi All, I use debian and gnome since well the begining... I have it on many nodes, but specially on some server, where many guests run. I was on squeeze sine the begining of squeeze, and decided to try wheezy. Ubuntu is Debian snapshot, so much of muchness... I think it's less and less the case: http://news.slashdot.org/story/13/05/08/2038243/ubuntu-developing-its-own-package-format-installer -- RMA.
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On Tue, 2013-08-27 at 11:56 +0300, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote: http://news.slashdot.org/story/13/05/08/2038243/ubuntu-developing-its-own-package-format-installer Wow, thank you for the link. Than Ubuntu in the future will cause much more issues, when you talk to upstream, than they already do by their disgusting policy to split packages nowadays. Reminds me to the running gag with the very often broken libjackd link in the past years. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1377594334.724.26.camel@archlinux
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On Tue, 2013-08-27 at 11:05 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
On Tue, 2013-08-27 at 11:56 +0300, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote:
http://news.slashdot.org/story/13/05/08/2038243/ubuntu-developing-its-own-package-format-installer
Wow, thank you for the link. Than Ubuntu in the future will cause much
more issues, when you talk to upstream, than they already do by their
Ubuntu and Debian
disgusting policy to split packages nowadays. Reminds me to the running
gag with the very often broken libjackd link in the past years.
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Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On 8/27/13, Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: On Tue, 2013-08-27 at 18:07 +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote: For server, perhaps simpler XFCE4? Xfce or LXDE are a good idea. Or add custom repo and install Cinnamon or MATE desktops Have you ever tested Cinnamon and MATE? No. Wanted to. Nobody should consider that one of them can be called a quasi continued GNOME2, Ralph, surely you should know better! Goodness me, you *should* think before you type. Nobody should consider that such simple replies can be called reasonable continuation of my comment. or that they are usable for a stable production environment. I'm a Xfce user and installed both for testing purpose. Your feedback regarding your testing of stability of Cinnamon, and MATE, may be useful. I went to Ubuntu first in 6.04, then 8.04, then never happy to upgrade from there, so came back to Debian recently (last year), because of Unity interface I don't like. There are Ubuntu teams such as the Xubuntu team. I am aware. Ralph, are you suggesting to me that Xubuntu is better than Debian+XFCE ? Xfce users better go with Xubuntu or Ubuntu Studio. Arch linux users who promote Ubuntu *over* Debian better go to another list! I am XFCE user. I better stay with Debian. Your comment is meaningless. Perhaps you should add some other sentence for others to make sense of what you say? At the moment, your direct response to my comment is strange, to say the least! Ralph, are you a compulsive relationship communications boundary tester? So now I use XFCE4. There are some dissatisfactory things these days. Gnome2 just worked - and I could customize it in just the way I wanted. But XFCE with some scripts and things here and there, and it's acceptable. This is primary workstation. I agree and Xfce4 is much closer to GNOME2 than Cinnamon and Mate are. Ok. I agree - it would be _very_ miserable day to have to leave Debian. When I came back last year, it was like coming home to parents for Christmas after many years away... too many years away.. In my experiences versatility is the best thing, IOW don't consider a distro to be your golden calve, use the distro that fit best to your needs. Once you're used too different package managements etc. it's easy to switch the distro whenever needed. I always have different distros installed. At the moment Arch Linux fit best to my needs and can be most easiest configured to my needs. If this should change I even don't need to install another Linux, they're already installed and at least two different distros are maintained on my machine. My need is time. I had multiple Ubuntu and Debian installs for a while last year, but management and maintaining common customizations was too much overhead. I've also tried CentOS and Slackware. In my opinion best thing is Debian stable and Debian unstable installs, depending on need. This minimizes the time I spend learning minutiae between distros - real waste of time. Greater efficiency in one OS (at least, for Debian) = greater productivity of my time. This is best. :) Zenaan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/caosgnssum13ns1ebiyosxv6shbxhhisxtbsbxh7v1pxue0x...@mail.gmail.com
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On 8/27/13, Phi Debian phi.deb...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Zeenan, Hi Phi, *please*, reply only to the list. I do not need multiple copies of your email. I have a permenant vnc session I don't really know what you mean by permenant vnc session. on the server (trusted network) and I do most of the tiny things with GUI, else cui for stuff like NW, iscsi, etc... Yes I choose ubuntu as the less disorientating choice after many many years on debian, next chice would have been mint, etc... OK. You might find that working to solve the bug in Debian is less disorienting ... if this your first real bug in Debian, for so many years, you are doing very well, better than me. I don't go xfce because again I have very litle time to customize thing, and learning how to script XFCE is out of my time bufget though I exploded it with vnc on debian :) I did not mean you must customize XFCE. I mean try XFCE, it might work ok, for server (I use for desktop). Also I mean if XFCE is not perfect for you, a little bit of customization (like change color of task bar) might be easy, might just work for you. Also I mean scripting should not be necessary, may be not needed at all for server. Only you can try it on your environment and see if it works, just same as trying Ubuntu - no different, but I think much less differences long term than Ubuntu. Ubuntu makes more and more changes, probably more pain for you :( What I liked with old gnome, was the custom can be done without learning anything, drag drop panels, click on color that suite you, focus follow mouse was trivial, etc I agree. We learn it. It worked. Then they decide something _new_ and _shiny_ and _paradigm-changing_ must be better. Sad. Well I learn a bit about gconf editor and I am about done on ubuntu... OK. So if it works for you, use it. May be after some months it will still be just fine. If not, come back to Debian, or something else. So I wait a bit see if I can stay on debian (my prefered choice for historical reasons) Sounds like you are on Ubuntu now. May be Wayland and Weston will save the day for us XP-era GNOME2 junkies http://lwn.net/Articles/559647/ :) Good luck, Zenaan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAOsGNSR2T3Khpn=e2CBfk7w23wuKB4LdCv5=2eiffz3qhme...@mail.gmail.com
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
I only want to point out that that there isn't such as the good, the bad and the ugly distro. No distro of the known distros with a huge user base is better or worse than another distro. I can mention advantages and drawbacks for most of them, IOW for all of them I used/I'm using. When I read on a Debian list, that Debian is the best, or on an Ubuntu list that Ubuntu is the best or on an Arch list, that Arch is the best or ..., than I only read, the distro is a religion or an attitude to life, but distros aren't that. There's no need to glom on to a distro, this likely does cause more work, than to switch distros. Regarding to Cinnamon and Mate, they are often mentioned when users experience issues with GNOME3 when they switched from GNOME2 and you did it in the same context, that's why I only wanted to point out, that my impression is, that people should be careful to use those desktops on production environments, especially when installed from a third party repository. YMMV! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1377596898.724.47.camel@archlinux
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
I am not religious about distros, I said I got many guest running on the server, this is precisly to have a whole sort of distro running. Yet the server got to have one, and for historical reasons it happen it is debian. Now this gnome3 comes to the dance, and break the tiny bits of basic thing I need on the server side. I did try xfce once and was not too excited about the friendlyness of the config. I used to have any kind of bugs before, that I could most of the time work around, but this time I think people are getting away because it soulds like a long standing bug, with no solution at debian while solved at ubuntu. This could be acceptable for a little while, but today it sounds like it show some weaknesses developping No big deal, as you said Ralf, the agile survive :), let's hop to the next one :) Yet I know that many valuable people have really given a lot to debian, and it is sad that a simple sub-sytem can kill it. Cheers, Phi On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 11:48 AM, Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: I only want to point out that that there isn't such as the good, the bad and the ugly distro. No distro of the known distros with a huge user base is better or worse than another distro. I can mention advantages and drawbacks for most of them, IOW for all of them I used/I'm using. When I read on a Debian list, that Debian is the best, or on an Ubuntu list that Ubuntu is the best or on an Arch list, that Arch is the best or ..., than I only read, the distro is a religion or an attitude to life, but distros aren't that. There's no need to glom on to a distro, this likely does cause more work, than to switch distros. Regarding to Cinnamon and Mate, they are often mentioned when users experience issues with GNOME3 when they switched from GNOME2 and you did it in the same context, that's why I only wanted to point out, that my impression is, that people should be careful to use those desktops on production environments, especially when installed from a third party repository. YMMV! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1377596898.724.47.camel@archlinux -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/cajor74hvaezlv56ox06vbuvwdg8ewhguw6owv31+avbsddy...@mail.gmail.com
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
:) Hi Ralph, hope you are well. Your general, non-direct reply to my questions to you, is by default consent to my implied positions. I _am_ still interested to know if you consider yourself to be a compulsive relationship-communication boundary tester? I defend your right to free speech. Some of your speech invites questions. Also I shall respond to some of your comments below: On 8/27/13, Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: I only want to point out that that there isn't such as the good, the bad and the ugly distro. No distro of the known distros with a huge user base is better or worse than another distro. Bollocks! Discrimination is good. It is healthy! It is essential! Viva la discrimination! If you don't stand for something, you fall for anything! Do you want luke warm politically correct blurps? Fedora/RedHat has strict libre adherence for since forever. Debian has social contract forever. These advantages are definitive! These distributions are therefore superior! They are definitively better! We who are involved, are involving ourselves in visions and intentions which visions and which intentions are beyond mere utility (take THAT, Linus!)!! Debian has 40,000 software packages, more than any other, and makes Debian definitively better than other distros. So even on utility metric, Debian is better! Debian runs on 12 architectures. Definitively better! I can mention advantages and drawbacks for most of them, IOW for all of them I used/I'm using. Pick your metric Ralph! You are taking a fence-sitting politically correct luke warm position. By you saying what you are saying, you are saying every distribution is nearly as good as other distributions. This implied conclusion from your words Ralph, is NOT TRUE! You are choosing a limited set of metrics for better, and you are failing to disclose your chosen metrics! And then, if you pretend to be the consummate philosopher you will probably begin to argue that any metrics are as good as any other ... or that one preferred metric is as good as many other! Just because you have time to spend time learning (mastering any?) multiple GNU/Linux distributions does not mean other people are in same situation. Just because you fail to place an absolute scalar better value to one end of a chosen metrics over the other end of that metric, and/ or just because you fail to place a scalar better value of one metric over another metric, does not mean your position is valid! Politically correct yes, but valid no, useful no, divisive possibly, and indiscriminate certainly! Someone who uses Gentoo or Arch, may have to spend time custom-compiling some software that is not there. This takes time. So pre-packaged software of Debian, makes Debian definitively better than those other distros which do not have the software I need! Debian saves me a lot of time, and this makes Debian definitively better for me, on the metric of my personal time consumption, convenience metric, flexibility of software choice metric, libre metric, community size metric, founded on social conscience metric! Ralph, it is ok to be universally agnostic... But that is not optimal for some people's needs!! Like me for example. And that is perhaps a luke-warm existence .. you can keep it. On the surface, some of your comments appear to me broad-minded, but I see underneath that you fail to speak of the truth of other individual real living people, like me, and so you appear to me to be in fact, narrow-minded. It clearly looks to me like you are projecting your own personal best concepts and likes onto everybody. Discrimination is good! It is personal! It carries intent! In fact, my discriminating, is my living of deep intents within me! Ralph, right now, I am spending some of my time to engage with you in this conversation. Your communication/actions evidence underlying, perhaps unseen by you, intents. The consequence of your actions, is evidence of those intents (subconscious or conscious) manifested. (For example, the engagement of another in communication, is some evidence...) When I read on a Debian list, that Debian is the best, or on an Ubuntu list that Ubuntu is the best or on an Arch list, that Arch is the best or ..., than I only read, the distro is a religion or an attitude to life, but distros aren't that. No, but people are living! People (some of them) have attitude in life! Is it wonderful? For some technology, a distribution like Debian to unite people in a social contract, is this not astounding? Is this not an amazing use for technology, to turn people's minds to something higher than mere atoms and bits? Is this not worthy of celebration? a party of living! We can do more with Debian, yes, but there is a message, we can _be_ more! Can you believe that people believe this? This is good. This is excellent. I, Zenaan, align with the Debian Manifesto. I, Zenaan, align with RedHat and Fedora's staunch stance for liberty in
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
Zenaan, if everybody would use Debian for development, than even the Debian community would have to suffer from slower progress. To develop, to report bugs to upstream etc. you often need an Linux userspace environment that is up-to-date, but even experimental isn't up-to-date. The policy that Debian isn't up-to-date, isn't in unison with upstream, has got advantages, but it not seldom is a serious drawback for developing, for continuing the evolution of Linux. There are hundreds of Linux distros with social and libre policies, this isn't exclusive for the distros you mentioned. Some people consider to get less binary packages, that use current stable releases from upstream instead of more binary packages that provide completely outdated packages, other users don't care about this. So when I mention something you call politically correct but without concentrated passion, you're mistaken. There's much concentrated passion in what I mentioned. Different distros and even different flavours of Ubuntu have different targets. For me something very important is the KISS principle, again, Debian is a good distro too, but IMO far away from KISS. You're free to consider the distros you mentioned as the best distros, but by doing this you miss a basic approach of FLOSS. There isn't such as a commercial competition, or radical political model. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1377600963.724.68.camel@archlinux
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
PS: Since you have that much issues with compiling software, consider that some distros e.g. have a huge userbase, because not less users need the current stable kernel release, with the current stable modules for new hardware. Is the huge userbase from distros you consider as less good, a community of idiots? There are so many reasons for having different distros and why those distros have got a huge userbase. Some of those distros are much older than Debian is. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1377601966.724.76.camel@archlinux
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On 8/27/13, Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: You're free to consider the distros you mentioned as the best distros, but by doing this you miss a basic approach of FLOSS. There isn't such as a commercial competition, or radical political model. What you say does not make sense. You are free to ignore most (or all) of what I say, and to make assumptions about things I have supposedly considered or said. Free to do so, but not useful... -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAOsGNSQc=wplhnw_oolgjkj3b5pmmdwmwf1upk4xdasrwjf...@mail.gmail.com
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On Tue, 2013-08-27 at 21:16 +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote: On 8/27/13, Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: You're free to consider the distros you mentioned as the best distros, but by doing this you miss a basic approach of FLOSS. There isn't such as a commercial competition, or radical political model. What you say does not make sense. You are free to ignore most (or all) of what I say, and to make assumptions about things I have supposedly considered or said. Free to do so, but not useful... What branch of Debian do you recommend to contribute in development of important Linux userspace projects? I explained that you can't do that, if you experience a dependency hell or an unstable environment. To contribute that way users and developers need stable up-to-date releases of software + sometimes newer releases than the current stable releases. Debian doesn't provide a stable branch that is up-to-date, in sync with stable releases from upstream, even the unstable branches of Debian don't provide this. Wouldn't you call this a drawback for the evolution of Linux, while it has less, if any advantages to go this way? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1377602998.724.82.camel@archlinux
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
Le 27.08.2013 13:12, Ralf Mardorf a écrit : Some of those distros are much older than Debian is. Well, sorry to go inside your discussion ( which is more fun than anything else, for me ), but that point surprised me. I am not a linux distro expert, and only really used Debian ( tried Ubuntu, backtrack, archlinux and gentoo... only few hours, because I did not liked the 2 first's packaging political - and gnome, which is the default for them - , for arch it was just broken even before a usable installation - xorg had broken dependency... arch was installed, but not *usable* for me. - and I never successfully compiled a gentoo system which just work when you start the computer... so, really fast tries, and only for gentoo I intend to try distro anew, to give it another chance. ) but IIRC, from stuff I had read here and there, the only older distro is slackware, am I wrong? I do not mean that age is a criteria of quality ( this would mean our 100 aged grandmothers are smarter and stronger than anyone else... I sincerely doubt it ;) ) but just wanted to know which other distro is so old. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/3041c069a8dd9650b412a5b2dfbc4...@neutralite.org
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On Tue, 2013-08-27 at 13:30 +0200, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: Le 27.08.2013 13:12, Ralf Mardorf a écrit : Some of those distros are much older than Debian is. Well, sorry to go inside your discussion ( which is more fun than anything else, for me ), but that point surprised me. I am not a linux distro expert, and only really used Debian ( tried Ubuntu, backtrack, archlinux and gentoo... only few hours, because I did not liked the 2 first's packaging political - and gnome, which is the default for them - , for arch it was just broken even before a usable installation - xorg had broken dependency... arch was installed, but not *usable* for me. - and I never successfully compiled a gentoo system which just work when you start the computer... so, really fast tries, and only for gentoo I intend to try distro anew, to give it another chance. ) but IIRC, from stuff I had read here and there, the only older distro is slackware, am I wrong? I do not mean that age is a criteria of quality ( this would mean our 100 aged grandmothers are smarter and stronger than anyone else... I sincerely doubt it ;) ) but just wanted to know which other distro is so old. Yes it's fun for me too. In mid-1992, Peter MacDonald founded SLS, which offered the first distribution to contain elements such as X and TCP/IP.[citation needed] The company was sending a set of 40 floppy disks containing Slackware to people who wanted to get Linux. Slackware (maintained by Patrick Volkerding) was initially based largely on SLS, and the SUSE Linux distribution was originally a German translation of Slackware. In 1994 Patrick Volkerding's scripts were translated, accompanying the original S.u.S.E Linux 1.0 distribution, which was a German version of Slackware, developed in close collaboration with Volkerding. The floppies turned into CDs. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SUSE_Linux_distributions#History The Debian Project grew slowly at first and released the first 0.9x versions in 1994 and 1995. During this time it was sponsored by the Free Software Foundation's GNU Project.[118] The first ports to other, non-i386 architectures began in 1995, and the first 1.x version of Debian was released in 1996. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debian#1993.E2.80.931998 Slackware and Suse came before Debian. Ok, you can consider a translation as the same distro, but IMO it already was important work to make Linux available for a huger userbase. You can consider those few years as being not much earlier, but IMO even a few month are important regarding to computer evolution. I'm not pro version hunting, but for development at least current stable releases from upstream should be available. Debian doesn't provide this. This doesn't make Debian less good, but it makes it less good for development of some important Linux userspace software. The OP has got an issue with GNOME, go and report this issue to upstream and they will reply that bugs are likely fixed for up-to-date stable releases of GNOME. So regarding to this thread the things I mentioned aren't just for fun, just the discussion is ridiculous, since the OP already had proven that Debian has got an disadvantage. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1377604089.724.95.camel@archlinux
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On 2013-08-27, Zenaan Harkness z...@freedbms.net wrote: Your general, non-direct reply to my questions to you, is by default consent to my implied positions. I can't parse that. I _am_ still interested to know if you consider yourself to be a compulsive relationship-communication boundary tester? I think he considers that one size does not fit all. What a traitor (or not)! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/slrnl1p4v7.2ev.cu...@einstein.electron.org
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
Le 27.08.2013 13:29, Ralf Mardorf a écrit : On Tue, 2013-08-27 at 21:16 +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote: On 8/27/13, Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: You're free to consider the distros you mentioned as the best distros, but by doing this you miss a basic approach of FLOSS. There isn't such as a commercial competition, or radical political model. What you say does not make sense. You are free to ignore most (or all) of what I say, and to make assumptions about things I have supposedly considered or said. Free to do so, but not useful... What branch of Debian do you recommend to contribute in development of important Linux userspace projects? I explained that you can't do that, if you experience a dependency hell or an unstable environment. To contribute that way users and developers need stable up-to-date releases of software + sometimes newer releases than the current stable releases. Debian doesn't provide a stable branch that is up-to-date, in sync with stable releases from upstream, even the unstable branches of Debian don't provide this. Wouldn't you call this a drawback for the evolution of Linux, while it has less, if any advantages to go this way? Is there is any distro with binaries from trunk/master ( depending on if you prefer svn or git ;) ) up to date? It would be quite strange, but sounds nice. I think that source distros can have such a system, but they are really hard to install, and for all other distros, I think users... coders, just sync with the repo of the libs they need, if they need the latest development package, and then compile the stuff themselves. On Debian, you have no real choice, since some libs ( sfml or wxwidgets for example ) does not have the latest version in binaries... In facts, I only had, for now, to use source repositories for something like 3 libs: wxwidgets, for the unstable versions ( 2.9.x ), libbullet, because it is not in Debian's repos ( IIRC ), and pluma-framework, for same reason. On those libs, wxwidgets 2.9.x is not stable, so I would avoid to use it to create stuff for production environments. It's API may change tomorrow, and imply lot of work to adapt (it is not probable, but it is possible). Other 2 libs just lacks from the Debian's repo, but since Debian have a very huge package collection, is not it more likely for me to find my libs in Debian than in other distros with smaller package collection? And for SFML... I'm using 1.6 for now. I should use 2.0 or 2.1, but... I just do not like it's design and API*. Also, exceptions are almost not used, which imply that I have to encapsulate the calls to the lib anyway, so switching version of even library will be easy: I'll just need to rewrite implementation of my low level classes, which is really fast to do. So, for the young SFML lib, not having the last version is not so problematic for me, but, yes, Debian does not have the last stable version of that particular library. Finally, usually, libraries have some compatibility between versions, the more recent will support all features and API of older ones. Except for major releases, or for bad libraries that you should maybe think twice before using them. It means that it's better to work with older libs, if you do not require more recent features, to target more systems. As often when you try to write portable stuff, you can not use all bleeding edges of all targets. To conclude, I think that Debian is excellent for programming, because of the ton of packages it have, and because when the coders needs the latest version of a lib, they are usually good enough with computers to clone/compile it ( but I admit that I am often very lazy too, so I try to avoid doing that. This is one of the reasons I no longer use windows for my desktop: on Debian, no need to compile and install stuff myself. Almost never.) . *: SDL is, imho, better on that, even if I am a C++ programmer which really love OOP and exceptions... I feel like SFML uses OOP to hide stuff which may be useful for real programming. A problem ( not fixed in more recent versions AFAIK ) I recently had which is a nice example, is that I had a network error, and the lib only gave me the indication that there were an error. Yeah. Nice. There is an error, but you have no way to know which one... fun. Or not. Luckily, C gives perror to print the real error on screen, but hey, why does the SFML lacks function to say what went wrong? SDL is better, it have such facility, with SDL_GetError(). Of course, it does not handle network, but the nice point of libs which only handle one thing is that they can focus and often handle it better. I hate frameworks ( yes, it means that I hate Qt, too.), really. I prefer UNIX philosophy: one tool for one thing, and combine tools to have a framework which only does what you really needs. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On 8/27/13, Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: On Tue, 2013-08-27 at 21:16 +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote: On 8/27/13, Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: You're free to consider the distros you mentioned as the best distros, but by doing this you miss a basic approach of FLOSS. There isn't such as a commercial competition, or radical political model. What you say does not make sense. You are free to ignore most (or all) of what I say, and to make assumptions about things I have supposedly considered or said. Free to do so, but not useful... What branch of Debian do you recommend to contribute in development of important Linux userspace projects? Ralph, you are quite disrespectful. I ask you genuine question, speak from my heart on matters. You ignore nearly everything I say and say something mostly unrelated. More than that, you ask a question whilst waving a hand to sweep aside my questions to you. Before, I asked you a question I am interested in hearing your answer. You completely ignored my question, and speak to my considerations and made assumptions which are unfounded. Again, same thing. Finally (above), I point out to you that something you said (as again before), is just not making sense. You made no effort to explain (read again, your second sentence at top, and see for you it is maybe an ambiguity, but for me, I actually could not understand what you tried to say. And again, you ignore what I say, that I do not understand (what you say does not make sense), and now, after ignoring me 3 times, you ask a genuine question of me? Do you see Ralph that, to me, you are coming across as disrespectful ? I explained that you can't do that, if you experience a dependency hell or an unstable environment. To contribute that way users and developers need stable up-to-date releases of software + sometimes newer releases than the current stable releases. Debian doesn't provide a stable branch that is up-to-date, in sync with stable releases from upstream, even the unstable branches of Debian don't provide this. Completely ignoring what I said, going to pure technical conversation now! Wouldn't you call this a drawback for the evolution of Linux, while it has less, if any advantages to go this way? Now going to strawman (Ralph creates his straw argument to shoot it down, pretending he shoots someone but himself), nothing about what I said! Ralph, you are competant at ignoring salient points and responses! Also, you are competant at raising strawmen! Also, your are inequitable in your conversational behaviour! (Ignore my repeated question and many things, then ask me another question; then do this all again.) Also, you are competant at bold assertions (false bold assertions, true bold assertions, and whatever inbetween)! Also, you are competant at completely ignoring/sweeping away entire halves of sequential communication when it does not suit nor interest you. Also, you are competant at ignoring genuine questions. Ralph, you are entirely competant in using these above and more techniques, to defend your - existential, - politically correct, - utilitarian metric, , , belief system, to essentially bludgeon the conversation. I can easily go to technical conversation with you. In the past I have. With others I have. But Ralph can you participate (substantially) in a conversation which goes beyond mere technical? Does the concept of higher aspiration [upset|offend|disgust|challenge|affront] you? (Now I am again asking you genuine questions, but you have shown persistent, repeated disregard for my questions in the multiple earlier parts of this conversation, so I wonder, am I wasting my time even posing such questions to you.) Ralph when you ignore my questions and ignore what I say, and then you continue as though a big part of the conversation (my half) never happened, then you are being disrespectful, and stubborn, and biased, and you fail to acknowledge my position. It is funny: you pretend to dislike religious communication (about my OS is better, my metric is most important) but you religiously ignore those parts of my opinion that you don't like, and persistently insist that your utility metric (for some Ralphy definition of utility) is still better. In fact, you are so stubborn in your insistence, that you continue to talk as though I said almost nothing, and as though you expect me to respect your technical question as somehow relevant, *at-this-point*, in the conversation. In English, we call you a hypocrite. I am wondering if you are merely alternate-position-challenged, or alternate-belief-challenged, or religiously attached to relationship communication boundary testing, or belligerently (attempting to) dominating your own belief system on me. However, although I hope, I do not really expect you to engage intelligently with these _real_ considerations (as opposed to your strawman considerations of mine), since you have
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On Tue, 2013-08-27 at 11:55 +, Curt wrote: What a traitor (or not)! arch traitor ;) since I prefer Arch Linux and my explanations might be a traitor's kiss, since I referred to the KISS principle. You can read on many mailing lists that people often try to explain something with the argument that we should be better than the competitors or that we should follow a radical policy, but there are no competitors, just other teams and other projects and Linux isn't a political party. I guess users who see the FLOSS communities as competitors or who care to much about ethical concepts, misunderstand that Linux aim is to be lukewarm, to provide something for every human, the passion for Linux usually is to get rid of thinking that something is superior. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1377606126.724.110.camel@archlinux
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On 8/27/13, Curt cu...@free.fr wrote: On 2013-08-27, Zenaan Harkness z...@freedbms.net wrote: Your general, non-direct reply to my questions to you, is by default consent to my implied positions. I can't parse that. Sorry. I shall try again: I am saying Ralph ignored my questions to him (and ignored the things I said). And then I am saying I have a default response (default value) to Ralph's ignorance: a) because Ralph failed to response to what I said, b) I take it that Ralph is agreeing with me a) He is not denouncing what I say is the evidential 'limit' or the 'value' or the 'input' to my assessment function; b) and the output of my assessment function is that Ralph consents to (like agrees with) what I have stated. I _am_ still interested to know if you consider yourself to be a compulsive relationship-communication boundary tester? I think he considers that one size does not fit all. What a traitor (or not)! Curt, I agree that that is Ralph's position. I also agree that one size does not fit all: Fedora is good, Debian is good, Gentoo is good. There are lots of great options. That's not what I said. Just there, I asked a question - Ralph, do you like to boundary test relationships, by using conversation or conversation techniques? and then Do you do so compulsively? I hope that makes sense. :) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAOsGNSQJQJt_raOJe2+5=3zm8jbq-uqvccvchunqiagmw68...@mail.gmail.com
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On Tue, 2013-08-27 at 14:02 +0200, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: Is there is any distro with binaries from trunk/master ( depending on if you prefer svn or git ;) ) up to date? It would be quite strange, but sounds nice. Arch Linux comes with binaries for the current stable releases from upstream. This nearly has no drawback, for servers you perhaps still prefer to hold a package and to test updates by a test install first, even while everything was tested by the test repository. For let's say a professional audio production environment you simply can update to current stable releases and if needed (but it usually isn't needed) downgrade packages from cache. Arch is a real rolling release and there perhaps are other stable rolling releases out there. Regarding to branches from development trees, such as git and svn, Arch has got a special binary repository and a build system comparable to FreeBSD ports. I think that source distros can have such a system, but they are really hard to install It depends on the users skills and how much only is available by source, again, that is what I mean with all distros with a huge userbase have advantages and drawbacks. I don't say that to please everybody, it isn't political correctness, it's just an objective fact. , and for all other distros, I think users... coders, just sync with the repo of the libs they need, if they need the latest development package, and then compile the stuff themselves. On Debian, you have no real choice, since some libs ( sfml or wxwidgets for example ) does not have the latest version in binaries... Again, to develop huge projects this approach does cause a dependency hell. For e.g. take a package and replace it's source by a newer version, edit changelog and rules and then run libtoolize --force --copy --automake, aclocal, autoreconf, debuild -b -us -uc can be done or smaller projects, but even could fail then. Note that many people who are needed, the testers, don't have the skills the developers have got. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1377607625.724.132.camel@archlinux
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
A hypocrite is somebody who claims to be somebody or to believe something, but in reality this person is somebody else or does believe something completely different. I'm only willing to explain, why Debian or what ever distro with a huge userbase, isn't superior over other distros, not by emotions, but by technical facts. That isn't tow faced. You can't argue against the technical facts that makes distros you don't like regarding to your radical point of view, as good and bad as Debian and any other distro with a huge userbase are. Nobody can argue against your point of view, others can only explain why your point of view isn't objective. There are advantages over Debian, by distros you dislike. Those advantages might be unimportant for your needs, but they are much important for FLOSS. I have nothing to add to this topic, call me names if you can't resist. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1377608584.724.141.camel@archlinux
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
Le 27.08.2013 14:47, Ralf Mardorf a écrit : On Tue, 2013-08-27 at 14:02 +0200, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: Is there is any distro with binaries from trunk/master ( depending on if you prefer svn or git ;) ) up to date? It would be quite strange, but sounds nice. Arch Linux comes with binaries for the current stable releases from upstream. This nearly has no drawback, for servers you perhaps still prefer to hold a package and to test updates by a test install first, even while everything was tested by the test repository. For let's say a professional audio production environment you simply can update to current stable releases and if needed (but it usually isn't needed) downgrade packages from cache. Arch is a real rolling release and there perhaps are other stable rolling releases out there. Regarding to branches from development trees, such as git and svn, Arch has got a special binary repository and a build system comparable to FreeBSD ports. FreeBSD is something I should try, someday. I always thought about trying it, but time lacks... maybe I should try it before gentoo, it may be easier to install (especially concerning the kernel build). Anyway, that FreeBSD port system sounds interesting. I think that source distros can have such a system, but they are really hard to install It depends on the users skills and how much only is available by source, again, that is what I mean with all distros with a huge userbase have advantages and drawbacks. I don't say that to please everybody, it isn't political correctness, it's just an objective fact. And I completely agree here. I do not think you can quote any message from me where I said something else, and, in fact, if I thought like that, I would not use Debian, because it would be useless to be able to build my DE like I did :) ( i3-wm, lxterminal, xosview, vim, mpd/mpc/ncmpcpp... those tools are not used by most DE users I think. This results in a system almost perfect for my needs, but every other people would lack features they need.) That's why I smiled while reading discussion and overreactions previously. I am simply discussing about advantages and drawbacks of Debian for development here, since development is my job and passion, so I want to at least know about various approaches, even if I may do not like them. Curiosity. Note that many people who are needed, the testers, don't have the skills the developers have got. True. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/25b51ffcee08107d4ed66e7511420...@neutralite.org
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On Tue, 2013-08-27 at 14:47 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: On Tue, 2013-08-27 at 14:02 +0200, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: Is there is any distro with binaries from trunk/master ( depending on if you prefer svn or git ;) ) up to date? It would be quite strange, but sounds nice. Arch Linux comes with binaries for the current stable releases from upstream. This nearly has no drawback, for servers you perhaps still prefer to hold a package and to test updates by a test install first, even while everything was tested by the test repository. For let's say a professional audio production environment you simply can update to current stable releases and if needed (but it usually isn't needed) downgrade packages from cache. Arch is a real rolling release and there perhaps are other stable rolling releases out there. Regarding to branches from development trees, such as git and svn, Arch has got a special binary repository and a build system comparable to FreeBSD ports. PS: Since this is an issue on another mailing list, I've got a nice example that has to do with development. The current stable release of Evolution is 3.8.5, not a development version from git, it's the _stable_ branch from upstream, but even Debian experimental only provides 3.8.4. This isn't a drawback per se, but could become a serious issue. Now you go and compile 3.8.5 for your Debian, than you report a bug and the developers ask you what version of libfoo you've got installed. The developers reply, sorry this already is fixed, since the current stable branch of Evolution depends on the stable branch of libfoo ... and the dependency hell starts, you replace several libs and break other Debian packages. Don't confuse a git pull, with the current stable release from upstream. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1377609212.724.150.camel@archlinux
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On 08/27/2013 07:22 AM, Ralf Mardorf wrote: On Tue, 2013-08-27 at 11:55 +, Curt wrote: What a traitor (or not)! arch traitor ;) since I prefer Arch Linux and my explanations might be a traitor's kiss, since I referred to the KISS principle. I am still a big Arch fan myself. But after a couple years I found myself drawn to Debian Testing as the Arch developers (ESPECIALLY Allan McRae, the current maintainer for Pacman.) have begun to take a fiercely arrogant attitude and a we know better than you, so shut up tone toward anyone who would question some of their decisions. The last couple major changes in Arch seemed like changes for changes sake as well (systemd, while I really do love it a lot, just doesn't seem to fit with how I understood Arch was supposed to work. And I still believe to this day that the old BSD-like sysv setup they had before was loads simpler to configure.) And I still don't understand the point of the lib/bin merges they are doing, aside from the fact it's a blatant violation of FHS. I used Gentoo for a bit, but its problem is the opposite of Arch: Whereas Arch is making pointless, unnecessary changes, Gentoo seems to be pretty stagnant and stuck in its ways. Gentoo actually is a distribution I actually think would benefit very well with systemd. OpenRC, though its goals are laudable, I've only ever seen it basically just become a sysv-init clone that accomplishes next to nothing new. My other gripe about Gentoo was it just got to be just too much work just for basic system upkeep. The USE flags were incredibly useful and powerful for customizing my packages and how my system would globally work, but all too often setting them globally would just result in Portage griping and refusing to install software, and setting USE flags individually per hundreds of packages is way too much work, effectively meaning Portage ended up getting in the way of what was supposed to be its own most powerful feature. I think Debian works pretty well. It's not as flexible or powerful as Arch or Gentoo, perhaps, but it's definitely better for servers than Arch or Gentoo. But it's not without its flaws. I think Debian's obsession with free software conformity is, indeed, a weakness. Before you blast me, I'm just going to point out I subscribe more to the Torvalds school of thought on open source, NOT the Stallman school. Richard Stallman over-politicizes/idealizes the idea of open source, tries to make it almost a moral/spiritual thing in a context and industry where moral/spiritual choice is as a whole, irrelevant and actually pretty counterproductive. For a long time (Until recently, in fact.), Debian desktop users had to use third party repositories just to get decent multimedia support into Debian. Why? Because Debian developers questioned whether over half of the codecs most people needed were free enough. I think my opinion is made worse by the fact I just plain do not like Richard Stallman both as a person or as a representative of the FOSS world. And despite all of Debian's good faith efforts to try to conform with Richard's idea of what free means he still basically regards Debian (And pretty much all Linux.) with contempt. This is probably less to do with whether or not Debian complies with his free ideas and more for the fact the guy is pedal-to-the-metal bitter and oh-so-very jealous that Linux succeeded in every place GNU failed (Such as actually being an operating system.), which is why he insists on the GNU/Linux moniker, which is utter nonsense (Using the GNU toolchain doesn't magically make Linux GNU, and he uses some of the most insane logic to try and justify a pretty transparent attempt to take credit for Linux's success from those who actually DID make Linux a success. It is a crying shame the Debian people, in their futile attempt to get Stallman to like Debian, actually comply with the GNU/Linux crap. Linux is not GNU, get over it. It only uses the GNU toolchain (And even then, not always, look at Android.)). So all Debian got for their effort to be free is that to make Debian a really good desktop the users have to work a little harder than they should. The Torvalds school of thought is actually based on something with a lot more relevance and something far more objective: Software quality. Open source ends up being a lot more effective and in a load of cases the better option in a software deployment in production environments (The Internet basically runs on Linux these days.) provided the open source you use isn't worrying about whether its politically correct so much as makign sure it's the best quality option. Use what works best. Debian's other problem is this need to split packages. A lot. Debian likes to brag about having a HUGE repository, but when you actually look at it, it's actually an AVERAGE repository made bigger by the fact that when you install software, despite the fact it
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 10:07:03AM -0500, Conrad Nelson wrote: Debian's obsession with free software conformity is, indeed, a weakness. Before you blast me, I'm just going to point out I subscribe more to the Torvalds school of thought on open source, NOT the Stallman school. Richard Stallman over-politicizes/idealizes the idea of open source ... No, he rejects the term open source entirely. He uses Free Software. ... tries to make it almost a moral/spiritual thing ... Moral/ethical. For Richard it isn't about usefulness or practical issues, it's literally the idea that legislating who can use software and how is evil. Disclaimer: I have met and talked with rms, though that was years ago and we've spoken maybe ten times ever. -- Carl Fink nitpick...@nitpicking.com Read my blog at blog.nitpicking.com. Reviews! Observations! Stupid mistakes you can correct! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130827151631.ga14...@panix.com
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
Le 27.08.2013 17:07, Conrad Nelson a écrit : Debian's other problem is this need to split packages. A lot. Debian likes to brag about having a HUGE repository, but when you actually look at it, it's actually an AVERAGE repository made bigger by the fact that when you install software, despite the fact it downloads and installs up to 12 packages for the same thing it really is basically just ONE package. I don't actually see the purpose in why Debian has to split its packages dozens of ways especially when you still end up having to install them all anyway. Someone explain this to me. I agree on most of your post, except that part. Can you please provide package's names which should be united? Of course, there are the .*$, .*-dev$, .*-doc$ and .*-dbg$ packages, which could be merged. For -dev, ok, since text does not take a lot of space. Still, most users does not need the headers of programming libraries, so that separation makes the system smaller, and reduce network load. For -dbg, it' of course a good thing to not merge them: debugging symbols takes a lot of space. Then, there are -doc packages, too. I think the reason is the same: most users does not need them, so why should they install it? Now, if you mean that packages are too atomic, like, for example, libpython2.7 which depends on libpython2.7-stdlib... I just want to say that it's exactly why I dislike python's softwares: they usually depends on lot of things which I do not think are necessary. Debian simply shows that. I have no other examples than python's ones here, so provide some, so that I could argue better :) (because that argument is really poor: I do not like python... XD ) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/2b6709d4662fce253c8cd52838072...@neutralite.org
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On 08/27/2013 10:22 AM, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: Le 27.08.2013 17:07, Conrad Nelson a écrit : Debian's other problem is this need to split packages. A lot. Debian likes to brag about having a HUGE repository, but when you actually look at it, it's actually an AVERAGE repository made bigger by the fact that when you install software, despite the fact it downloads and installs up to 12 packages for the same thing it really is basically just ONE package. I don't actually see the purpose in why Debian has to split its packages dozens of ways especially when you still end up having to install them all anyway. Someone explain this to me. I agree on most of your post, except that part. Can you please provide package's names which should be united? Of course, there are the .*$, .*-dev$, .*-doc$ and .*-dbg$ packages, which could be merged. For -dev, ok, since text does not take a lot of space. Still, most users does not need the headers of programming libraries, so that separation makes the system smaller, and reduce network load. For -dbg, it' of course a good thing to not merge them: debugging symbols takes a lot of space. Then, there are -doc packages, too. I think the reason is the same: most users does not need them, so why should they install it? Now, if you mean that packages are too atomic, like, for example, libpython2.7 which depends on libpython2.7-stdlib... I just want to say that it's exactly why I dislike python's softwares: they usually depends on lot of things which I do not think are necessary. Debian simply shows that. I have no other examples than python's ones here, so provide some, so that I could argue better :) (because that argument is really poor: I do not like python... XD ) Oh, no, I think the -dev, -dbg, etc stuff SHOULD be split. I'll go by example: The nvidia driver. In Arch it's easy to install, there's not a lot of packages directly involved in the driver. Just nvidia and nvidia-utils, as it should be. Debian SPLITS these two packages about two dozen different ways, with names that often confuse me into thinking one package is actually the driver. They COULD be the driver, but just installing those packages and trying to configure for nVidia doesn't seem to work for Xorg. I found out that pretty much the only way to install the nVidia driver is the dkms package, which seems unneeded for users with the stock kernel. Shouldn't Debian have a PREBUILT nVidia module for their stock kernel? The end result is that installing this driver and configuring it is unnecessarily messy and complicated due in no small part to the fact you install at least half a dozen packages all of which look like they're the driver itself. I can understand having a dkms package for custom kernels, though. I don't think I can explain the splitting thing that bugs me well enough. Just that I think that Debian's claims to have a HUGE repository are maybe a little dishonest when if they actually reduced all their packages to what they are at their source, it's much smaller than what they claim. Maybe a better metric would actually be about actual quantity of SOFTWARE AS A WHOLE over individual packages. But by that metric I daresay I've found more software in Arch's repositories + the AUR than in Debian. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/521cdb44.1060...@marupa.net
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On 08/27/2013 12:00 PM, Conrad Nelson wrote: On 08/27/2013 10:22 AM, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: Le 27.08.2013 17:07, Conrad Nelson a écrit : Debian's other problem is this need to split packages. A lot. Debian likes to brag about having a HUGE repository, but when you actually look at it, it's actually an AVERAGE repository made bigger by the fact that when you install software, despite the fact it downloads and installs up to 12 packages for the same thing it really is basically just ONE package. I don't actually see the purpose in why Debian has to split its packages dozens of ways especially when you still end up having to install them all anyway. Someone explain this to me. I agree on most of your post, except that part. Can you please provide package's names which should be united? Of course, there are the .*$, .*-dev$, .*-doc$ and .*-dbg$ packages, which could be merged. For -dev, ok, since text does not take a lot of space. Still, most users does not need the headers of programming libraries, so that separation makes the system smaller, and reduce network load. For -dbg, it' of course a good thing to not merge them: debugging symbols takes a lot of space. Then, there are -doc packages, too. I think the reason is the same: most users does not need them, so why should they install it? Now, if you mean that packages are too atomic, like, for example, libpython2.7 which depends on libpython2.7-stdlib... I just want to say that it's exactly why I dislike python's softwares: they usually depends on lot of things which I do not think are necessary. Debian simply shows that. I have no other examples than python's ones here, so provide some, so that I could argue better :) (because that argument is really poor: I do not like python... XD ) Oh, no, I think the -dev, -dbg, etc stuff SHOULD be split. I'll go by example: The nvidia driver. In Arch it's easy to install, there's not a lot of packages directly involved in the driver. Just nvidia and nvidia-utils, as it should be. Debian SPLITS these two packages about two dozen different ways, with names that often confuse me into thinking one package is actually the driver. They COULD be the driver, but just installing those packages and trying to configure for nVidia doesn't seem to work for Xorg. I found out that pretty much the only way to install the nVidia driver is the dkms package, which seems unneeded for users with the stock kernel. Shouldn't Debian have a PREBUILT nVidia module for their stock kernel? The end result is that installing this driver and configuring it is unnecessarily messy and complicated due in no small part to the fact you install at least half a dozen packages all of which look like they're the driver itself. I can understand having a dkms package for custom kernels, though. I don't think I can explain the splitting thing that bugs me well enough. Just that I think that Debian's claims to have a HUGE repository are maybe a little dishonest when if they actually reduced all their packages to what they are at their source, it's much smaller than what they claim. Maybe a better metric would actually be about actual quantity of SOFTWARE AS A WHOLE over individual packages. But by that metric I daresay I've found more software in Arch's repositories + the AUR than in Debian. I'm not really happy with my example or explanation. Short answer is it is, indeed, too atomic, the way they split packages. I'd only split packages in cases where whatever is split off can be replaced completely, otherwise the split seems pointless (Exception being stuff liek -doc or -dev or -dbg. Not everyone is a developer.) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/521cdbe6.4060...@marupa.net
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On Tue, 2013-08-27 at 10:07 -0500, Conrad Nelson wrote: On 08/27/2013 07:22 AM, Ralf Mardorf wrote: On Tue, 2013-08-27 at 11:55 +, Curt wrote: What a traitor (or not)! arch traitor ;) since I prefer Arch Linux and my explanations might be a traitor's kiss, since I referred to the KISS principle. I am still a big Arch fan myself. But after a couple years I found myself drawn to Debian Testing as the Arch developers (ESPECIALLY Allan McRae, the current maintainer for Pacman.) have begun to take a fiercely arrogant attitude and a we know better than you, so shut up tone toward anyone who would question some of their decisions. The last couple major changes in Arch seemed like changes for changes sake as well (systemd, while I really do love it a lot, just doesn't seem to fit with how I understood Arch was supposed to work. And I still believe to this day that the old BSD-like sysv setup they had before was loads simpler to configure.) And I still don't understand the point of the lib/bin merges they are doing, aside from the fact it's a blatant violation of FHS. I used Gentoo for a bit, but its problem is the opposite of Arch: Whereas Arch is making pointless, unnecessary changes, Gentoo seems to be pretty stagnant and stuck in its ways. Gentoo actually is a distribution I actually think would benefit very well with systemd. OpenRC, though its goals are laudable, I've only ever seen it basically just become a sysv-init clone that accomplishes next to nothing new. My other gripe about Gentoo was it just got to be just too much work just for basic system upkeep. The USE flags were incredibly useful and powerful for customizing my packages and how my system would globally work, but all too often setting them globally would just result in Portage griping and refusing to install software, and setting USE flags individually per hundreds of packages is way too much work, effectively meaning Portage ended up getting in the way of what was supposed to be its own most powerful feature. I think Debian works pretty well. It's not as flexible or powerful as Arch or Gentoo, perhaps, but it's definitely better for servers than Arch or Gentoo. But it's not without its flaws. I think Debian's obsession with free software conformity is, indeed, a weakness. Before you blast me, I'm just going to point out I subscribe more to the Torvalds school of thought on open source, NOT the Stallman school. Richard Stallman over-politicizes/idealizes the idea of open source, tries to make it almost a moral/spiritual thing in a context and industry where moral/spiritual choice is as a whole, irrelevant and actually pretty counterproductive. For a long time (Until recently, in fact.), Debian desktop users had to use third party repositories just to get decent multimedia support into Debian. Why? Because Debian developers questioned whether over half of the codecs most people needed were free enough. I think my opinion is made worse by the fact I just plain do not like Richard Stallman both as a person or as a representative of the FOSS world. And despite all of Debian's good faith efforts to try to conform with Richard's idea of what free means he still basically regards Debian (And pretty much all Linux.) with contempt. This is probably less to do with whether or not Debian complies with his free ideas and more for the fact the guy is pedal-to-the-metal bitter and oh-so-very jealous that Linux succeeded in every place GNU failed (Such as actually being an operating system.), which is why he insists on the GNU/Linux moniker, which is utter nonsense (Using the GNU toolchain doesn't magically make Linux GNU, and he uses some of the most insane logic to try and justify a pretty transparent attempt to take credit for Linux's success from those who actually DID make Linux a success. It is a crying shame the Debian people, in their futile attempt to get Stallman to like Debian, actually comply with the GNU/Linux crap. Linux is not GNU, get over it. It only uses the GNU toolchain (And even then, not always, look at Android.)). So all Debian got for their effort to be free is that to make Debian a really good desktop the users have to work a little harder than they should. The Torvalds school of thought is actually based on something with a lot more relevance and something far more objective: Software quality. Open source ends up being a lot more effective and in a load of cases the better option in a software deployment in production environments (The Internet basically runs on Linux these days.) provided the open source you use isn't worrying about whether its politically correct so much as makign sure it's the best quality option. Use what works best. Debian's other problem is this need to split packages. A lot. Debian likes to brag about having a HUGE repository, but when you actually look
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On Tue, 2013-08-27 at 17:22 +0200, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: Can you please provide package's names which should be united? jackd packages shouldn't be split, joint the jack devel mailing list archive, unfortunately you need to be subscribed for doing this. But again, even that packages split stuff from upstream isn't a bad idea per se, but in some cases it is bad. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1377626770.711.12.camel@archlinux
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On Tue, 2013-08-27 at 12:00 -0500, Conrad Nelson wrote: I don't think I can explain the splitting thing that bugs me well enough. Just that I think that Debian's claims to have a HUGE repository are maybe a little dishonest when if they actually reduced all their packages to what they are at their source, it's much smaller than what they claim. Maybe a better metric would actually be about actual quantity of SOFTWARE AS A WHOLE over individual packages. But by that metric I daresay I've found more software in Arch's repositories + the AUR than in Debian. :D However, while it's nice that some people understand what I mentioned and some of the topic's argumentation are funny, we perhaps should stop the discussion or at least move to the off-topic list. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1377627342.711.19.camel@archlinux
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
On Tue, 2013-08-27 at 12:03 -0500, Conrad Nelson wrote: On 08/27/2013 12:00 PM, Conrad Nelson wrote: On 08/27/2013 10:22 AM, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: Le 27.08.2013 17:07, Conrad Nelson a écrit : Debian's other problem is this need to split packages. A lot. Debian likes to brag about having a HUGE repository, but when you actually look at it, it's actually an AVERAGE repository made bigger by the fact that when you install software, despite the fact it downloads and installs up to 12 packages for the same thing it really is basically just ONE package. I don't actually see the purpose in why Debian has to split its packages dozens of ways especially when you still end up having to install them all anyway. Someone explain this to me. I agree on most of your post, except that part. Can you please provide package's names which should be united? Of course, there are the .*$, .*-dev$, .*-doc$ and .*-dbg$ packages, which could be merged. For -dev, ok, since text does not take a lot of space. Still, most users does not need the headers of programming libraries, so that separation makes the system smaller, and reduce network load. For -dbg, it' of course a good thing to not merge them: debugging symbols takes a lot of space. Then, there are -doc packages, too. I think the reason is the same: most users does not need them, so why should they install it? Now, if you mean that packages are too atomic, like, for example, libpython2.7 which depends on libpython2.7-stdlib... I just want to say that it's exactly why I dislike python's softwares: they usually depends on lot of things which I do not think are necessary. Debian simply shows that. I have no other examples than python's ones here, so provide some, so that I could argue better :) (because that argument is really poor: I do not like python... XD ) Oh, no, I think the -dev, -dbg, etc stuff SHOULD be split. I'll go by example: The nvidia driver. In Arch it's easy to install, there's not a lot of packages directly involved in the driver. Just nvidia and nvidia-utils, as it should be. Debian SPLITS these two packages about two dozen different ways, with names that often confuse me into thinking one package is actually the driver. They COULD be the driver, but just installing those packages and trying to configure for nVidia doesn't seem to work for Xorg. I found out that pretty much the only way to install the nVidia driver is the dkms package, which seems unneeded for users with the stock kernel. Shouldn't Debian have a PREBUILT nVidia module for their stock kernel? The end result is that installing this driver and configuring it is unnecessarily messy and complicated due in no small part to the fact you install at least half a dozen packages all of which look like they're the driver itself. I can understand having a dkms package for custom kernels, though. I don't think I can explain the splitting thing that bugs me well enough. Just that I think that Debian's claims to have a HUGE repository are maybe a little dishonest when if they actually reduced all their packages to what they are at their source, it's much smaller than what they claim. Maybe a better metric would actually be about actual quantity of SOFTWARE AS A WHOLE over individual packages. But by that metric I daresay I've found more software in Arch's repositories + the AUR than in Debian. I'm not really happy with my example or explanation. Short answer is it is, indeed, too atomic, the way they split packages. I'd only split packages in cases where whatever is split off can be replaced completely, otherwise the split seems pointless (Exception being stuff liek -doc or -dev or -dbg. Not everyone is a developer.) You'll find packages in AUR that are split too. The linux-rt PKGBUILD does split linux-rt into linux-rt-docs, -headers and the kernel image package ;). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1377627535.711.22.camel@archlinux
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
Le 27.08.2013 19:03, Conrad Nelson a écrit : On 08/27/2013 12:00 PM, Conrad Nelson wrote: On 08/27/2013 10:22 AM, berenger.mo...@neutralite.org wrote: Le 27.08.2013 17:07, Conrad Nelson a écrit : Debian's other problem is this need to split packages. A lot. Debian likes to brag about having a HUGE repository, but when you actually look at it, it's actually an AVERAGE repository made bigger by the fact that when you install software, despite the fact it downloads and installs up to 12 packages for the same thing it really is basically just ONE package. I don't actually see the purpose in why Debian has to split its packages dozens of ways especially when you still end up having to install them all anyway. Someone explain this to me. I agree on most of your post, except that part. Can you please provide package's names which should be united? Of course, there are the .*$, .*-dev$, .*-doc$ and .*-dbg$ packages, which could be merged. For -dev, ok, since text does not take a lot of space. Still, most users does not need the headers of programming libraries, so that separation makes the system smaller, and reduce network load. For -dbg, it' of course a good thing to not merge them: debugging symbols takes a lot of space. Then, there are -doc packages, too. I think the reason is the same: most users does not need them, so why should they install it? Now, if you mean that packages are too atomic, like, for example, libpython2.7 which depends on libpython2.7-stdlib... I just want to say that it's exactly why I dislike python's softwares: they usually depends on lot of things which I do not think are necessary. Debian simply shows that. I have no other examples than python's ones here, so provide some, so that I could argue better :) (because that argument is really poor: I do not like python... XD ) Oh, no, I think the -dev, -dbg, etc stuff SHOULD be split. I'll go by example: The nvidia driver. In Arch it's easy to install, there's not a lot of packages directly involved in the driver. Just nvidia and nvidia-utils, as it should be. Debian SPLITS these two packages about two dozen different ways, with names that often confuse me into thinking one package is actually the driver. They COULD be the driver, but just installing those packages and trying to configure for nVidia doesn't seem to work for Xorg. I found out that pretty much the only way to install the nVidia driver is the dkms package, which seems unneeded for users with the stock kernel. Shouldn't Debian have a PREBUILT nVidia module for their stock kernel? The end result is that installing this driver and configuring it is unnecessarily messy and complicated due in no small part to the fact you install at least half a dozen packages all of which look like they're the driver itself. I can understand having a dkms package for custom kernels, though. I don't think I can explain the splitting thing that bugs me well enough. Just that I think that Debian's claims to have a HUGE repository are maybe a little dishonest when if they actually reduced all their packages to what they are at their source, it's much smaller than what they claim. Maybe a better metric would actually be about actual quantity of SOFTWARE AS A WHOLE over individual packages. But by that metric I daresay I've found more software in Arch's repositories + the AUR than in Debian. I'm not really happy with my example or explanation. Short answer is it is, indeed, too atomic, the way they split packages. I'd only split packages in cases where whatever is split off can be replaced completely, otherwise the split seems pointless (Exception being stuff liek -doc or -dev or -dbg. Not everyone is a developer.) About the nvidia-driver being hard to install, did you tried to install the meta-package, nvidia-driver? ;) For NVidia, when I take a look at packages' names, I see: * nvidia-kernel-common = it is needed by dkms and 2 legacy packages * nvidia-kernel-dkms = needed by bumblebee and nvidia-driver and I will not check every nvidia (you are true, there is a lot of them) packages, but I think there are more than one package depending on them. For nvidia-utils, well, that might be good, but... no, you could want one of the tools and not the other ones, for example I have no use for the utility which allows to graphically configure screens's resolution and position ( I use xrandr ). On dkms subject... I have no idea why there is only dkms and no firmware. I prefer to see packages split in atomic ones, instead of having everything in one package that you can not reuse easily. I guess that's the same for the maintainers. Note that for some really small programs, Debian put them all into 1 package, for example in x11-xserver-utils. I guess there is a limit about binary's size to put them into one package. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble?
Re: oh no something is definitly wrong adieu debian.
n Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 9:19 PM, Zenaan Harkness z...@freedbms.net wrote: On 8/27/13, Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: On Tue, 2013-08-27 at 21:16 +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote: On 8/27/13, Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: [...] In English, [...] Debian is an international distribution. I rarely see canonical English on the lists here. There's lots of room for different dialects, different modes of expression, ... ... different opinions. -- Joel Rees -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAAr43iNxhu2DCG+UJN1=bf8oTrBY6w3S6nU-u-EfCWhVoO=g...@mail.gmail.com
