Re: Re[2]: Emacs - was Re: Mail/news software
Steve == Steve Lamb [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Steve Then why keep bringing it up? I just find it amusing Steve that the selling point of a unix-like system is that it is Steve modular and flexible so the first thing most people point Steve to is a Microsoft-esque monolith application. Yeah, that Steve works, great. I don't mean to add fuel to the fire, but I have to ask. As a newcomer (and devout anti-zealot ;), it seems to me that Emacs is frequently mischaracterized as just a text editor, just as Mozilla is mislabelled just a browser. In both cases, they do that, but they're also (primarily?) application development and deployment platforms. Emacs seems to be a virtual lisp machine, and it's often used as such. So why is the argument portayed as vi-the-text-editor vs. emacs-the-text-editor? To me, arguing over vi vs. emacs is like arguing over C the language and Java the libraries + runtime environment + kitchen sink. I don't mean to be inflammatory, but I'm curious. Am I off-base, is there a historical reason for this apparent mislabelling? Thanks. -- Believe nothing, no matter where you read it | Andrej Marjan or who has said it, not even if I have said | [EMAIL PROTECTED] it, unless it agrees with your own reason and | your own common sense. --buddha | --+---
Re: Re[2]: Emacs - was Re: Mail/news software
Hello all there, On Wed, 3 May 2000, Steve Lamb wrote: For me it isn't a GUI/CLI mindset it is simply the ability to do what needs to be done. Windows doesn't let me do that in most cases. The standard 'nix utilities provide a lot of automation for mundane tasks. I've been following this thread for some time, and this is exactly the mail I've always been waiting for, because IMHO that's exactly the point about the whole discussion. The first time I had contact with Unix in general was in my soil physics lecture at university. We've been calculating some models on water and solute flux in soils on IBM RS/6000 machines with AIX, and as none of us two students in the course had any knowledge about Unix, the Prof gave us a short introduction. One thing I kept specially in mind: We had to remove a directory, so the prof said (in german, I'm translating into English): Just enter rm -rf directory/. rm means remove, r means recursive and f means force: Do it and don't ask stupid questions (the computer, not us students). So we entered it and the computer did it and didn't ask stupid questions. Being at that time used to the windoze way of doing things, where you often have to struggle some kind of fight with your computer to get things done, I've at once been fascinated by the way you tell the computer in clear precise language, what he has to do, and he does it. We have been doing other fancy (for me at that time) things on the computers, so this course could actually be seen as a turning point in my attitude towards computers and OSes. So a short time later I switched to Linux on my computer at home (doing it quite radically, not that kind of dual-boot stuff;-). So to focus on the main point again: It really isn't the GUI/CLI-matter. I like GUIs. But sometimes things can be done much faster, easier and more precise on the command line. And this being able to choose the way to do things and being able to do things that have to be done (And you don't have that in windoze) is one of the main advantages of UNIX/Linux. Regards, Daniel P.S.: Some might perhaps consider this mail much too long, or much too far off topic for this list, but sorry: I just had to get this off my chest.
Re[2]: Emacs - was Re: Mail/news software
Tuesday, May 02, 2000, 9:10:53 PM, Pat wrote: important and I don't see Windows 9x or NT giving this, although I have zero experience with NT. But I do know that to kill a runaway process in Win95 you have to Ctrl-Alt-Delete, wait for the little window to pop up (forgot what it's called), and click on it and tell Windows to close the program. Typing 'kill' seems so much simpler. The point, I guess, is the same as yours: both CLI and GUI have pros and cons. I like my linux box where both are often available. (you say that further down too.) Not to mention that the little window only shows registered processes, not all processes. It requires explorer to be running to be able to work and often times it is a component of explorer that is hanging. It also hopes that the queue is not jammed, which often it is. So a lot of times you get a blue screen saying the system is busy, hit return to wait or CAD to reboot. I dunno, but a kill off my WYSE terminal on the serial port seems a lot easier because it has a lot /less/ on it to go wrong, actually works and lets me kill all processes, not just registered ones. For me it isn't a GUI/CLI mindset it is simply the ability to do what needs to be done. Windows doesn't let me do that in most cases. The standard 'nix utilities provide a lot of automation for mundane tasks. -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your ICQ: 5107343 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. ---+-
Re: Re[2]: Emacs - was Re: Mail/news software
Graeme Mathieson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote regarding Re: Re[2]:
Emacs
Steve Lamb [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
[ snipped ... ]
Simply stated, anything which requires Emacs to run
is instantly lower than something that requires Windows to run because
at
least it /IS/ an OS and not an editor that is a wannabe script
interpreter
and OS rolled into one.
Has anybody ever tried to graft emacs directly on top of oskit?
_Then_ you
would have your operating system. :)
It would be a great OS period. Perfect for laptops, PDA's,
writers, programmers, etc...
I'd like to a graphical version though... sort of a cross
between Oberon and emacs. Run w3 in a frame, gnus in another,
mail could update in a little sliding window at the bottom
of the screen... maybe you could just use it as a desktop
and run applets in floating windows above it.
Object oriented... document centric... run it on
the Mach kernel...
--
My other computer's running Debian. {www.debian.org}
Re: Re[2]: Emacs - was Re: Mail/news software
Hi, Richard Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Graeme Mathieson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote regarding Re: Re[2]: Emacs Has anybody ever tried to graft emacs directly on top of oskit? _Then_ you would have your operating system. :) It would be a great OS period. Perfect for laptops, PDA's, writers, programmers, etc... I was kidding. See the smilie? You scare me. :-P -- Graeme. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Life's not fair, I reply. But the root password helps. - BOFH
Re[2]: Emacs - was Re: Mail/news software
Monday, May 01, 2000, 10:55:47 PM, Richard wrote: I've had several debates featuring this very subject. Some very long and drawn out and heated. Then why keep bringing it up? I just find it amusing that the selling point of a unix-like system is that it is modular and flexible so the first thing most people point to is a Microsoft-esque monolith application. Yeah, that works, great. This one... several times. It's no longer interesting. Makes it no less true. If you don't like emacs... don't run it. If you don't want to add anything to the thread... I'm sure you've got a killfile somewhere nearby. I am adding to the thread. I'm adding a bit of truth to the religious dogma. -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your ICQ: 5107343 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. ---+-
Re[2]: Emacs - was Re: Mail/news software
Monday, May 01, 2000, 11:59:24 AM, Richard wrote:
Emacs is far more useful than that... It's still the best
mailer/newsreader/text based office program in existence.
That is highly debated, esp. for people who prefer not to have huge
bloated pigs in memory, don't want to learn a speech impediment on top of
other languages and actually prefer to have separate, specific programs for
their individual tasks. Simply stated, anything which requires Emacs to run
is instantly lower than something that requires Windows to run because at
least it /IS/ an OS and not an editor that is a wannabe script interpreter and
OS rolled into one.
My other computer's running Debian. {www.debian.org}
And this one is running, what? Amiga?
--
Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
ICQ: 5107343 | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
---+-
Re: Re[2]: Emacs - was Re: Mail/news software
Hi, Steve Lamb [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [ snipped ... ] Simply stated, anything which requires Emacs to run is instantly lower than something that requires Windows to run because at least it /IS/ an OS and not an editor that is a wannabe script interpreter and OS rolled into one. Has anybody ever tried to graft emacs directly on top of oskit? _Then_ you would have your operating system. :) To keep this post slightly on-topic, you'll notice that my X-Newsreader: header says I'm using Gnus. That and mailcrypt does covers all my mail and news needs better than any other tool I've found so far. Still it has some niggles though. -- Graeme. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Life's not fair, I reply. But the root password helps. - BOFH
