Re: Safest maintenance of a sid system
On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 07:45:43AM +0100, AG wrote: Hi Having recently upgraded to sid, I want to try to ensure that I am able to maintain a more or less stable system under those circumstances and in the full knowledge that, by definition, sid is unstable and may be subject to breakages. With this in mind, what do the more experienced sid users do in terms of the daily updates of packages that come through - for example - the Update Notification? I know that sidux users rely on some scripts - sxmi and sgfi (??) I think - but I wonder if that is what native sid users rely on or do you have your own recipes for maintaining reasonable stability? For example, the use of scripts such as those from sidux, or not doing a daily system update or ... ? The Sidux distro advertises itself as a sort of safer sid. I tried it out once, but never really used it much. Anybody on the list have any opinions on it? -Rob -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Safest maintenance of a sid system
AG wrote: Hi Having recently upgraded to sid, I want to try to ensure that I am able to maintain a more or less stable system under those circumstances and in the full knowledge that, by definition, sid is unstable and may be subject to breakages. With this in mind, what do the more experienced sid users do in terms of the daily updates of packages that come through - for example - the Update Notification? I know that sidux users rely on some scripts - sxmi and sgfi (??) I think - but I wonder if that is what native sid users rely on or do you have your own recipes for maintaining reasonable stability? For example, the use of scripts such as those from sidux, or not doing a daily system update or ... ? Thanks for any tips/ steers. AG Install apt-listbugs, apt-listchanges. Upgrade packages only if you know why you want to upgrade them. If you don't know why you are upgrading a package, you don't need that upgrade. Those are my rules when upgrading a sid system. Also, over the years of using a SID system, you'll have a feel for which upgrades can be trusted which might break your system etc., For example, I never had problems upgrading gcc, coreutils etc., But I do not rush to upgrade to the latest KDE apps. YMMV. hth raju -- Kamaraju S Kusumanchi http://malayamaarutham.blogspot.com/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Safest maintenance of a sid system
Hi Having recently upgraded to sid, I want to try to ensure that I am able to maintain a more or less stable system under those circumstances and in the full knowledge that, by definition, sid is unstable and may be subject to breakages. With this in mind, what do the more experienced sid users do in terms of the daily updates of packages that come through - for example - the Update Notification? I know that sidux users rely on some scripts - sxmi and sgfi (??) I think - but I wonder if that is what native sid users rely on or do you have your own recipes for maintaining reasonable stability? For example, the use of scripts such as those from sidux, or not doing a daily system update or ... ? Thanks for any tips/ steers. AG -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Safest maintenance of a sid system
On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 07:45 +0100, AG wrote: Hi Having recently upgraded to sid, I want to try to ensure that I am able to maintain a more or less stable system under those circumstances and in the full knowledge that, by definition, sid is unstable and may be subject to breakages. You say it yourself, if you can't cope with breakages including losing all your $HOME, stay with stable. In my understanding there is no warranty whatsoever that testing / unstable won't burn your house, void the universe or whatever you can imagine. my 2¢ Siggy -- Please don't Cc: me when replying, I might not see either copy. bsb-at-psycho-dot-informationsanarchistik-dot-de or:bsb-at-psycho-dot-i21k-dot-de O ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Safest maintenance of a sid system
On 27 Jul 2009, Siggy Brentrup wrote: On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 07:45 +0100, AG wrote: Hi Having recently upgraded to sid, I want to try to ensure that I am able to maintain a more or less stable system under those circumstances and in the full knowledge that, by definition, sid is unstable and may be subject to breakages. You say it yourself, if you can't cope with breakages including losing all your $HOME, stay with stable. In my understanding there is no warranty whatsoever that testing / unstable won't burn your house, void the universe or whatever you can imagine. my 2¢ Siggy I think that to use 'stable' and 'sid' in the same sentence is a contradiction in terms. That said, I do run sid and there are not too many problems except when there is a major upgrade of something major like X. On those occasions it's best to hang back till things sort themselves out. Other than that, I watch out for threats to remove packages (often a bad sign) and I run apt-listbugs; if any bugs are flagged I look at them before upgrading and hold any packkages I'm worried about. Anthony -- Anthony Campbell - a...@acampbell.org.uk Microsoft-free zone - Using Debian GNU/Linux http://www.acampbell.org.uk (blog, book reviews, and sceptical articles) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Safest maintenance of a sid system
On 2009-07-27 02:32, Anthony Campbell wrote: On 27 Jul 2009, Siggy Brentrup wrote: On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 07:45 +0100, AG wrote: Hi Having recently upgraded to sid, I want to try to ensure that I am able to maintain a more or less stable system under those circumstances and in the full knowledge that, by definition, sid is unstable and may be subject to breakages. You say it yourself, if you can't cope with breakages including losing all your $HOME, stay with stable. In my understanding there is no warranty whatsoever that testing / unstable won't burn your house, void the universe or whatever you can imagine. my 2¢ Siggy I think that to use 'stable' and 'sid' in the same sentence is a contradiction in terms. That said, I do run sid and there are not too many problems except when there is a major upgrade of something major like X. On those occasions it's best to hang back till things sort themselves out. Other than that, I watch out for threats to remove packages (often a bad sign) and I run apt-listbugs; if any bugs are flagged I look at them before upgrading and hold any packkages I'm worried about. Exactly. Sid is the antithesis of how do I automate upgrades?. Never be afraid to press N when asked if you want to upgrade. apt-show-versions -u is also useful for targeted installs when you see that a dist-upgrade wants to remove something important. -- Scooty Puff, Sr The Doom-Bringer -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Safest maintenance of a sid system
AG: With this in mind, what do the more experienced sid users do in terms of the daily updates of packages that come through - for example - the Update Notification? I usually install all available upgrades daily (or even twice a day) using 'sudo aptitude update sudo aptitufe safe-upgrade'. Please note that most of the time it is not a good idea to do 'full-upgrade's because this operation might remove packages you actually need. It is better to invoke 'aptitude full-upgrade' only when you are fully aware that it might break your system. It is also a good idea to use the package apt-listchanges. This informs you about changelogs and news items of each package you upgrade. You should at least read the news files or otherwise you might miss important configuration changes. Additionally, you might want to install apt-listbugs which notifies you about open bugs of the packages you are about to install. I haven't found that to be very helpful, though. What I think is important, too: you should be able to use the command line and some command line editor (vim, emacs, nano...). If X or your bootloader is broken, you will need them. Finally, watching this list and some of the announce lists help you to kepp track what's going on in sid at the moment. That way you have a chance to notice when you should not upgrade certain packages or abstain from upgrading a few days/weeks altogether (usually at the start of a release cycle). J. -- I am very intolerant with other drivers. [Agree] [Disagree] http://www.slowlydownward.com/NODATA/data_enter2.html signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Safest maintenance of a sid system
AG writes: With this in mind, what do the more experienced sid users do in terms of the daily updates of packages that come through - for example - the Update Notification? Nothing. I make no attempt to track Unstable. I keep an eye on what's new and what is being reported broken on debian-devel and upgrade individual packages when I see a need for the new version (security, enhanced functionality). Occasionally, when things are looking particularly stable and I have some time I do a dist-upgrade. I haven't had anything break in years. Of course, I don't use a desktop environment... -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Safest maintenance of a sid system
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 AG wrote: Having recently upgraded to sid, I want to try to ensure that I am able to maintain a more or less stable system under those circumstances and I manually use apt-get update then apt-get upgrade. If no packages are being kept back, I select 'y'. If I see packages being kept back, I will select 'n', then use apt-get dist-upgrade. If no essential packages are to be removed, I select 'y'. If essential packages are to be removed (eg. gnome), I select 'n' then run apt-get upgrade. After a period of [n] days, these essential packages are eventually upgraded. This method has kept an unstable i386 and amd64 system unbroken for many moons. Tim -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkpts8cACgkQsUUdIDHrdAW/2gCfVvVneDcUu5+sdlT6kBiAEMLo S2wAnA3OO+WTCpm4s8PoK/EpFO8SwcZB =P+s9 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Safest maintenance of a sid system
Siggy Brentrup wrote: On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 07:45 +0100, AG wrote: Hi Having recently upgraded to sid, I want to try to ensure that I am able to maintain a more or less stable system under those circumstances and in the full knowledge that, by definition, sid is unstable and may be subject to breakages. You say it yourself, if you can't cope with breakages including losing all your $HOME, stay with stable. In my understanding there is no warranty whatsoever that testing / unstable won't burn your house, void the universe or whatever you can imagine. my 2¢ Siggy Thanks Siggy - I was aware of the health warnings, but even under truly serious health threats (as in physical health threats) there are prophylactic measures one can take to reduce (i.e. better manage) the risks. Sorry that my phrasing of the enquiry didn't emphasise that more distinctly.
Re: Safest maintenance of a sid system
Ron Johnson wrote: On 2009-07-27 02:32, Anthony Campbell wrote: On 27 Jul 2009, Siggy Brentrup wrote: On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 07:45 +0100, AG wrote: Hi Having recently upgraded to sid, I want to try to ensure that I am able to maintain a more or less stable system under those circumstances and in the full knowledge that, by definition, sid is unstable and may be subject to breakages. You say it yourself, if you can't cope with breakages including losing all your $HOME, stay with stable. In my understanding there is no warranty whatsoever that testing / unstable won't burn your house, void the universe or whatever you can imagine. my 2¢ Siggy I think that to use 'stable' and 'sid' in the same sentence is a contradiction in terms. That said, I do run sid and there are not too many problems except when there is a major upgrade of something major like X. On those occasions it's best to hang back till things sort themselves out. Other than that, I watch out for threats to remove packages (often a bad sign) and I run apt-listbugs; if any bugs are flagged I look at them before upgrading and hold any packkages I'm worried about. Exactly. Sid is the antithesis of how do I automate upgrades?. Never be afraid to press N when asked if you want to upgrade. apt-show-versions -u is also useful for targeted installs when you see that a dist-upgrade wants to remove something important. That works for me, Ron. Thanks for the suggestion. AG -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Safest maintenance of a sid system
Jochen Schulz wrote: AG: With this in mind, what do the more experienced sid users do in terms of the daily updates of packages that come through - for example - the Update Notification? I usually install all available upgrades daily (or even twice a day) using 'sudo aptitude update sudo aptitufe safe-upgrade'. Please note that most of the time it is not a good idea to do 'full-upgrade's because this operation might remove packages you actually need. It is better to invoke 'aptitude full-upgrade' only when you are fully aware that it might break your system. It is also a good idea to use the package apt-listchanges. This informs you about changelogs and news items of each package you upgrade. You should at least read the news files or otherwise you might miss important configuration changes. Additionally, you might want to install apt-listbugs which notifies you about open bugs of the packages you are about to install. I haven't found that to be very helpful, though. What I think is important, too: you should be able to use the command line and some command line editor (vim, emacs, nano...). If X or your bootloader is broken, you will need them. Finally, watching this list and some of the announce lists help you to kepp track what's going on in sid at the moment. That way you have a chance to notice when you should not upgrade certain packages or abstain from upgrading a few days/weeks altogether (usually at the start of a release cycle). J. Jochen That was a very useful post - thank you. Good tips to note here. Cheers AG
Re: Safest maintenance of a sid system
John Hasler wrote: AG writes: With this in mind, what do the more experienced sid users do in terms of the daily updates of packages that come through - for example - the Update Notification? Nothing. I make no attempt to track Unstable. I keep an eye on what's new and what is being reported broken on debian-devel and upgrade individual packages when I see a need for the new version (security, enhanced functionality). Occasionally, when things are looking particularly stable and I have some time I do a dist-upgrade. I haven't had anything break in years. Of course, I don't use a desktop environment... That's a reasonable point John. I have picked up that GNOME is rather a tricky DE in sid, for instance. But I *do* use a DE, so I'll have to bear that in mind as I come to grips with sid in the future. Thanks AG
Re: Safest maintenance of a sid system
Tim Beauregard wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 AG wrote: Having recently upgraded to sid, I want to try to ensure that I am able to maintain a more or less stable system under those circumstances and I manually use apt-get update then apt-get upgrade. If no packages are being kept back, I select 'y'. If I see packages being kept back, I will select 'n', then use apt-get dist-upgrade. If no essential packages are to be removed, I select 'y'. If essential packages are to be removed (eg. gnome), I select 'n' then run apt-get upgrade. After a period of [n] days, these essential packages are eventually upgraded. This method has kept an unstable i386 and amd64 system unbroken for many moons. Tim -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkpts8cACgkQsUUdIDHrdAW/2gCfVvVneDcUu5+sdlT6kBiAEMLo S2wAnA3OO+WTCpm4s8PoK/EpFO8SwcZB =P+s9 -END PGP SIGNATURE- Tim, like Jochen's reply, your post was particularly helpful which I'll keep and refer to in the months to come. Much obliged. AG
Re: Safest maintenance of a sid system
AG wrote: Hi Having recently upgraded to sid, I want to try to ensure that I am able to maintain a more or less stable system under those circumstances and in the full knowledge that, by definition, sid is unstable and may be subject to breakages. With this in mind, what do the more experienced sid users do in terms of the daily updates of packages that come through - for example - the Update Notification? I know that sidux users rely on some scripts - sxmi and sgfi (??) I think - but I wonder if that is what native sid users rely on or do you have your own recipes for maintaining reasonable stability? For example, the use of scripts such as those from sidux, or not doing a daily system update or ... ? Thanks for any tips/ steers. AG My thanks to all who replied with ideas, tips and advice. Very helpful with some real gems that I will copy to a text file just in case all goes to hell in a hand-basket through my carelessness. Coupled with the research I must do with a back up routine, I am hoping that I will be able to weather most storms that unstable might send downstream. As an aside, I noticed that none of the respondents picked up on the scripts sxmi, et al. Is that because of a lack of experience with these, or because they are no good, or possibly because they are superfluous from the perspective of an experienced sid user? Once again. Many thanks list. I appreciate your input. Best wishes AG -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Safest maintenance of a sid system
AG: As an aside, I noticed that none of the respondents picked up on the scripts sxmi, et al. Is that because of a lack of experience with these, or because they are no good, or possibly because they are superfluous from the perspective of an experienced sid user? I can only speak for myself, but I didn't mention them because I have never heard of them. And since no one packaged them for Debian, they are most probably superfluous. ;-) J. -- When I am doing sex I wonder if my emotions can be detected by alien civilisations. [Agree] [Disagree] http://www.slowlydownward.com/NODATA/data_enter2.html signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Safest maintenance of a sid system
AG computing.acco...@googlemail.com writes: As an aside, I noticed that none of the respondents picked up on the scripts sxmi, et al. Is that because of a lack of experience with these, or because they are no good, or possibly because they are superfluous from the perspective of an experienced sid user? I think such things are hardly necessary. Sid is not a monster, really all that's necessary to avoid the (very occasional) problems is a bit of sense. The normal mechanisms work very well. -Miles -- Apologize, v. To lay the foundation for a future offense. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Safest maintenance of a sid system
On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 09:09:34 +0200 Siggy Brentrup deb...@psycho.i21k.de wrote: ... In my understanding there is no warranty whatsoever that testing / unstable won't burn your house, void the universe or whatever you can imagine. Nitpick: *no* version of Debian, not even stable, comes with any warranty, as per the standard motd: Debian GNU/Linux comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by applicable law. Celejar -- mailmin.sourceforge.net - remote access via secure (OpenPGP) email ssuds.sourceforge.net - A Simple Sudoku Solver and Generator -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Safest maintenance of a sid system
On Tue, 28 Jul 2009 10:34:19 +0900 Miles Bader mi...@gnu.org wrote: AG computing.acco...@googlemail.com writes: As an aside, I noticed that none of the respondents picked up on the scripts sxmi, et al. Is that because of a lack of experience with these, or because they are no good, or possibly because they are superfluous from the perspective of an experienced sid user? I think such things are hardly necessary. Sid is not a monster, really all that's necessary to avoid the (very occasional) problems is a bit of sense. The normal mechanisms work very well. It's not always quite that simple, although it usually is. A year ago, I was hit by this: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=491114 Here's my tale of woe: http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2008/07/msg01704.html Fortunately, Sven Joachim pointed me toward the relevant bug, and I was soon back to normal. I think John Hasler's point (which he often makes) is an excellent one. We Sid users have a psychological need to keep our systems up to date, but there's really no technical reason for that. As long as one keeps track of security issues, there's really no point in compulsively updating, unless one wants to provide the community with the service of bug-finding, i.e. volunteering as guinea pig ;) Celejar -- mailmin.sourceforge.net - remote access via secure (OpenPGP) email ssuds.sourceforge.net - A Simple Sudoku Solver and Generator -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
