Re: Systemd and Unix
Gary Dale wrote: On 04/11/14 08:38 PM, Miles Fidelman wrote: Santiago Vila wrote: On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 12:38:00PM -0400, David Kline wrote: I have heard a lot of talk about how systemd deviates from the unix philosophy. What is the unix philosophy, how does debian follow it, and why does systemd break it? I suspect that people do not want yet another thread about systemd and that's why nobody answered your questions. Assuming your questions are real and genunine, this is what I can tell you: There is not a single rule that may be considered the unix philosophy. Instead, there are several of them as you can check here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy People who dislike systemd often cite Make each program do one thing well as the rule being broken, as systemd does several things other than booting the system that sysvinit didn't do. As this is debian-user and not debian-philosophy, I suggest that you keep reading about the subject and actually try systemd on jessie to have your own opinion about it. I have production systems to run, and other work to do. So far, all of the reports I've been seeing lead me to the conclusion: - run Wheezy as long as I possibly can - invest my time in exploring BSD and illumos based distros - that still seem to focus on server-side production applications - avoid any investment of time in jessie until things play out a bit more Miles Fidelman Actually, I've got a problem with sysvinit on one machine running Wheezy but have had no problems with systemd on my Jessie machines. Moreover systemd is being adopted by just about everyone. I don't want to continue this discussion because it's futile. Systemd is just a better way to run the init process. Get used to it. Well. Lucky for you. For me: - no problems at all with systemd - lots of reports, on lists concerned with running operational servers, about dealing with systemd issues - more than a few questions here along the lines of systemd changed this, how do I fix/correct this? - more than enough to tell me that the day I start migrating, I can expect a lot of sleepless nights getting my servers back into production - it's your opinion that systemd is just a better way to run the init process - others differ, personally I'm agnostic - my problem is to operational impact and the bundle of dependencies - if you don't want to continue this discussion - you're free to use your delete key or kill file - some of us DO want to continue this discussion, and I'd thank you to stop adding noise Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/545a29db.2030...@meetinghouse.net
Re: Systemd and Unix
On 05/11/14 12:54 AM, Jimmy Johnson wrote: On 11/04/2014 08:06 PM, Gary Dale wrote: I've got a problem with sysvinit on one machine running Wheezy.. Would you mind telling us what the problem is? I already did a couple of days ago on this list. Got no responses so I filed a bug report. The problem is the /etc/init.d/networking script never completes, which prevents a server from booting. All the subsequent scripts are waiting for this one to complete before proceeding. The asynchronous nature of systemd would allow the boot to finish even when a script goes bad. In this particular case, it appears the problem comes after the network is actually in a working state, so I could possibly ssh in under systemd but I can't even ping the box under sysvinit. More to the point, because systemd doesn't need init scripts, the problem may not even occur. After all, a bad systemd is more likely to be noticed than one init script that fails only in a particular circumstance. And configuration files are harder to mess up than lengthy scripts. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/545a349c.4080...@torfree.net
Re: Systemd and Unix
On 11/05/2014 06:30 AM, Gary Dale wrote: On 05/11/14 12:54 AM, Jimmy Johnson wrote: On 11/04/2014 08:06 PM, Gary Dale wrote: I've got a problem with sysvinit on one machine running Wheezy.. Would you mind telling us what the problem is? I already did a couple of days ago on this list. Got no responses so I filed a bug report. The problem is the /etc/init.d/networking script never completes, which prevents a server from booting. All the subsequent scripts are waiting for this one to complete before proceeding. Probable cause /ect/network/interfaces is not configured and is a development/release problem and is not Wheezy specific problem. I've seen the problem a few times lately while systemd has been in development and I just fix it. https://wiki.debian.org/NetworkConfiguration -- Jimmy Johnson Debian Squeeze - KDE 4.4.5 - AMD64 - EXT4 at sda11 Registered Linux User #380263 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/545a988b.4030...@gmail.com
Re: Systemd and Unix
On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 12:38:00PM -0400, David Kline wrote: I have heard a lot of talk about how systemd deviates from the unix philosophy. What is the unix philosophy, how does debian follow it, and why does systemd break it? I suspect that people do not want yet another thread about systemd and that's why nobody answered your questions. Assuming your questions are real and genunine, this is what I can tell you: There is not a single rule that may be considered the unix philosophy. Instead, there are several of them as you can check here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy People who dislike systemd often cite Make each program do one thing well as the rule being broken, as systemd does several things other than booting the system that sysvinit didn't do. As this is debian-user and not debian-philosophy, I suggest that you keep reading about the subject and actually try systemd on jessie to have your own opinion about it. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141104222109.ga15...@cantor.unex.es
Re: Systemd and Unix
Santiago Vila wrote: On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 12:38:00PM -0400, David Kline wrote: I have heard a lot of talk about how systemd deviates from the unix philosophy. What is the unix philosophy, how does debian follow it, and why does systemd break it? I suspect that people do not want yet another thread about systemd and that's why nobody answered your questions. Assuming your questions are real and genunine, this is what I can tell you: There is not a single rule that may be considered the unix philosophy. Instead, there are several of them as you can check here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy People who dislike systemd often cite Make each program do one thing well as the rule being broken, as systemd does several things other than booting the system that sysvinit didn't do. As this is debian-user and not debian-philosophy, I suggest that you keep reading about the subject and actually try systemd on jessie to have your own opinion about it. I have production systems to run, and other work to do. So far, all of the reports I've been seeing lead me to the conclusion: - run Wheezy as long as I possibly can - invest my time in exploring BSD and illumos based distros - that still seem to focus on server-side production applications - avoid any investment of time in jessie until things play out a bit more Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54597fa0.3020...@meetinghouse.net
Re: Systemd and Unix
On 04/11/14 08:38 PM, Miles Fidelman wrote: Santiago Vila wrote: On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 12:38:00PM -0400, David Kline wrote: I have heard a lot of talk about how systemd deviates from the unix philosophy. What is the unix philosophy, how does debian follow it, and why does systemd break it? I suspect that people do not want yet another thread about systemd and that's why nobody answered your questions. Assuming your questions are real and genunine, this is what I can tell you: There is not a single rule that may be considered the unix philosophy. Instead, there are several of them as you can check here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy People who dislike systemd often cite Make each program do one thing well as the rule being broken, as systemd does several things other than booting the system that sysvinit didn't do. As this is debian-user and not debian-philosophy, I suggest that you keep reading about the subject and actually try systemd on jessie to have your own opinion about it. I have production systems to run, and other work to do. So far, all of the reports I've been seeing lead me to the conclusion: - run Wheezy as long as I possibly can - invest my time in exploring BSD and illumos based distros - that still seem to focus on server-side production applications - avoid any investment of time in jessie until things play out a bit more Miles Fidelman Actually, I've got a problem with sysvinit on one machine running Wheezy but have had no problems with systemd on my Jessie machines. Moreover systemd is being adopted by just about everyone. I don't want to continue this discussion because it's futile. Systemd is just a better way to run the init process. Get used to it. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5459a252.7050...@torfree.net
Re: Systemd and Unix
On 11/04/2014 08:06 PM, Gary Dale wrote: I've got a problem with sysvinit on one machine running Wheezy.. Would you mind telling us what the problem is? -- Jimmy Johnson Registered Linux User #380263 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/5459bb8e.8090...@gmail.com
Systemd and Unix
I have heard a lot of talk about how systemd deviates from the unix philosophy. What is the unix philosophy, how does debian follow it, and why does systemd break it?
