subject:"What Package\?"

Hi,

On Sun, Jul 10, 2022 at 6:33 PM Andy Smith  wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> On Sun, Jul 10, 2022 at 06:24:16PM -0500, Igor Korot wrote:
> > Trying to guess I found the package autotools-dev, but that was not it.
> >
> > Should I keep it?
>
> I don't know. Perhaps remove it and install it again later if you
> find you have the need.
>
> > What does it contain?
>
> $ apt show autotools-dev
> $ dpkg -L autotools-dev
>
> I would suggest that if you intend to develop software on Debian
> then you might want to become more familiar with using Debian's
> package managers (particularly "apt" and "dpkg") to answer these
> very basic questions.

Thx for the help.
No, I don't intend to use Debian for development.
However, I need some help and the person I asked use Debian.

So I installed Debian in the VM and am trying to set up an environment
and make instructions on how to create a program.

For my development I use Gentoo which has everything I need from the
start up.
No need to install gcc and then guess which package all this different
tools belongs to
it's already provided by the system.

Thank you.

>
> Start here:
>
> https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-reference/ch02.en.html
>
> Cheers,
> Andy
>
> --
> https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting
>

Re: What package I can find aclocal in?

2022-07-10 Thread Andy Smith

Hello,

On Sun, Jul 10, 2022 at 06:24:16PM -0500, Igor Korot wrote:
> Trying to guess I found the package autotools-dev, but that was not it.
> 
> Should I keep it?

I don't know. Perhaps remove it and install it again later if you
find you have the need.

> What does it contain?

$ apt show autotools-dev
$ dpkg -L autotools-dev

I would suggest that if you intend to develop software on Debian
then you might want to become more familiar with using Debian's
package managers (particularly "apt" and "dpkg") to answer these
very basic questions.

Start here:

https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-reference/ch02.en.html

Cheers,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: What package I can find aclocal in?

Hi,
Thank you for the info.

On Sun, Jul 10, 2022 at 6:17 PM Andy Smith  wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> On Sun, Jul 10, 2022 at 05:43:33PM -0500, Igor Korot wrote:
> > What package can I find aclocal in?
>
> $ apt-file search bin/aclocal
> automake: /usr/bin/aclocal-1.16
> automake1.11: /usr/bin/aclocal-1.11

Trying to guess I found the package autotools-dev, but that was not it.

Should I keep it?
What does it contain?

Thank you

>
> Cheers,
> Andy
>
> --
> https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting
>

Re: What package I can find aclocal in?

Hi,

On Sun, Jul 10, 2022 at 6:10 PM Greg Wooledge  wrote:
>
> On Sun, Jul 10, 2022 at 05:43:33PM -0500, Igor Korot wrote:
> > What package can I find aclocal in?
> > I need to set up my autotools project in the newly installed Debian..
>
> How to find out what package a file is in:
>
> 1) Use http://packages.debian.org/ to search for the file by name.

Followed the link.
Scrolled to the section "Search the contents of packages"
Entered "aclocal" and selected second option
Got 1 result - bash-completion

I don't thin k this is the one.

And I presume all others will give the same name, so stop right there.

Thank you.

>
> 2) Use apt-file to search a local copy of the package file lists.
>
> 3) Use "apt search" (or "apt-cache search") with cleverly chosen keywords
>and try to filter the results.  This is getting harder and harder, as
>the number of packages grows.
>
> 4) Make reasonable guesses about what you *think* the package name should
>be, and try installing those.
>

Re: What package I can find aclocal in?

2022-07-10 Thread Andy Smith

Hello,

On Sun, Jul 10, 2022 at 05:43:33PM -0500, Igor Korot wrote:
> What package can I find aclocal in?

$ apt-file search bin/aclocal
automake: /usr/bin/aclocal-1.16   
automake1.11: /usr/bin/aclocal-1.11

Cheers,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: What package I can find aclocal in?

2022-07-10 Thread Greg Wooledge

On Sun, Jul 10, 2022 at 05:43:33PM -0500, Igor Korot wrote:
> What package can I find aclocal in?
> I need to set up my autotools project in the newly installed Debian..

How to find out what package a file is in:

1) Use http://packages.debian.org/ to search for the file by name.

2) Use apt-file to search a local copy of the package file lists.

3) Use "apt search" (or "apt-cache search") with cleverly chosen keywords
   and try to filter the results.  This is getting harder and harder, as
   the number of packages grows.

4) Make reasonable guesses about what you *think* the package name should
   be, and try installing those.

What package I can find aclocal in?

Hi,
What package can I find aclocal in?
I need to set up my autotools project in the newly installed Debian..

Thank you.

Needing help in knowing what package to report a bug

2022-05-09 Thread Joshua Brickel

Hi,

Description of problem:
After suspend only one screen activates (dual screen system) and the mouse
seems to be unresponsive.

Basic System
Using AMD cards (Radeon 5600XT and 5500XTY)
My system is setup as a mult-seat system with one seat having two monitors
and the other with one monitor.
Using Gnome with X
CPU family is AMD Epyc

Can anyone help me locate which group I should file this issue?

Thanks,

Joshua

Re: TDE Bug: what package responsible

2021-04-14 Thread deloptes

Dan Ritter wrote:

> q4os appears to be a Debian derivative, so presumably they would
> know better than we as to what is going on. I can't find a
> mailing list, but I do see a forum at
> https://www.q4os.org/forum/
> 
> I'm going to guess that they will want a better explanation of
> the symptoms than "tdestartupconfig complains and goes tits-up".

yes and also Q4OS would probably not solve the problem as TDE has its own
user mailing list.

Please, do not forget to attach what exactly tdestartupconfig complains for.

Re: TDE Bug: what package responsible

2021-04-13 Thread Dan Ritter

John Hunter wrote: 
> Hi,
> 
> [ 952jmdh ]
> 
> I have just installed q4os-3.14-x64-tde.r4.iso as an upgrade to an existing
> laptop. The installation (admin user) account has been estabished OK. When I
> try to log into a proper user account (tied to my old work account)
> tdestartupconfig complains and goes tits-up. I have never had this problem
> before with earlier versions of TDE (2.4 and 3.6). Please can you give me a
> clue as to the responsible "package" so that I can report the issue.
> 
> The offending user originally came from a SunOS system; the user account
> (jmdh:cism 2100:221) set up in 1992! In those days, user groups were in the
> range 200-64000 and user numbers were very seldom the same as their group
> numbers.

q4os appears to be a Debian derivative, so presumably they would
know better than we as to what is going on. I can't find a
mailing list, but I do see a forum at
https://www.q4os.org/forum/

I'm going to guess that they will want a better explanation of
the symptoms than "tdestartupconfig complains and goes tits-up".

-dsr-

TDE Bug: what package responsible

2021-04-13 Thread John Hunter


Hi,

[ 952jmdh ]

I have just installed q4os-3.14-x64-tde.r4.iso as an upgrade to an 
existing laptop. The installation (admin user) account has been 
estabished OK. When I try to log into a proper user account (tied to my 
old work account) tdestartupconfig complains and goes tits-up. I have 
never had this problem before with earlier versions of TDE (2.4 and 
3.6). Please can you give me a clue as to the responsible "package" so 
that I can report the issue.


The offending user originally came from a SunOS system; the user account 
(jmdh:cism 2100:221) set up in 1992! In those days, user groups were in 
the range 200-64000 and user numbers were very seldom the same as their 
group numbers.


John Hunter

Re: What package should I install to have a working wired LAN connection?

2020-07-28 Thread gajuph4...@yahoo.com

No. I ddn't use the tasksel command to select the Gnome desktop for 
installation. If I had done it, I'd have a bloated Gnome desktop environment.

On the console tty2, I installed the following packages:

xorg gnome-core gnome-tweak-tool synaptic gedit gdebi file-roller

In the past, after installing the above packages, I was able to boot into the 
bare Gnome desktop. I don't know why it doesn't work this time round.






On Wednesday, July 29, 2020, 4:54:09 AM GMT+8, Andrew Cater 
 wrote: 





>From a minimal Debian install with no desktop environment, use the tasksel 
>command to select the desktop for installation and work from there. How did 
>you install your minimal desktop environment? - if you did it just from a 
>netinst iso with no network, you might need to start by plugging in your USB 
>network adapter and trying again :(

On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 8:42 PM Dan Ritter  wrote:
> gajuph4...@yahoo.com wrote: 
>> I am unable to answer your question, viz. "Does that happen for yours?" 
>> because I am unable to boot into the Gnome desktop environment after a 
>> minimal install of Debian 10.4
>> 
> 
> If you hit ctrl-alt-F2 you should get a console login, then work from there.
> 
> -dsr-
> 
>

Re: What package should I install to have a working wired LAN connection?

2020-07-28 Thread Andrew Cater

Alan,

"If I were you, I wouldn't start from here". If you have no network
connection, you might find it easier to begin with a DVD image as this
provides more software to begin with. If you can plug in the USB-Ethernet
adapter and a cable, even better. You will almost certainly need some
element of network connectivity thereafter. [Given the opportunity, always
use a wired connection - wifi generally causes firmware issues. You can
boot a Debian live media image to check for firmware / hardware issues -
but they are a couple of GB big - you can then use the installer from that
to install Debian.

On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 8:54 PM gajuph4...@yahoo.com 
wrote:

> Thanks for your prompt reply.
>
> I am unable to answer your question, viz. "Does that happen for yours?"
> because I am unable to boot into the Gnome desktop environment after a
> minimal install of Debian 10.4
>
> Regards.
>
> Alan Reding
>
> P.S.: I posted a question on how to boot into the Gnome desktop to the
> mailing list a few minutes before this question.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, July 29, 2020, 4:06:38 AM GMT+8, Dan Ritter <
> d...@randomstring.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> gajuph4...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > My machine does not have an RJ-45 port.
> >
> > Based on my experience with Microsoft Windows OS, I need to use an
> Ethernet-to-USB adapter to have a wired LAN connection.
> >
> > As a result, during Expert Install, Debian 10.4 did not auto-detect the
> network hardware and it was unable to use DHCP to configure my network.
> >
> > Post installation, could someone advise me on which Debian package or
> driver I should install?
> >
> > Note: According to Microsoft Windows, the Ethernet-to-USB adapter is
> called ASIX AX88179 USB 3.0 to Gigabit Ethernet Adapter.
>
> I have an Amazon USB3 ethernet adapter right here, which uses
> the same chipset:
>
> lsusb -v -s 004:006
>
> Bus 004 Device 006: ID 0b95:1790 ASIX Electronics Corp. AX88179
> Gigabit Ethernet
>
> ip link show
>
> produces a new enx-prefixed ethernet device as soon as I plug it
>
> in.
>
>
> Does that happen for yours?
>
> -dsr-
>
>

Re: What package should I install to have a working wired LAN connection?

2020-07-28 Thread Andrew Cater

>From a minimal Debian install with no desktop environment, use the tasksel
command to select the desktop for installation and work from there. How did
you install your minimal desktop environment? - if you did it just from a
netinst iso with no network, you might need to start by plugging in your
USB network adapter and trying again :(

On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 8:42 PM Dan Ritter  wrote:

> gajuph4...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > I am unable to answer your question, viz. "Does that happen for yours?"
> because I am unable to boot into the Gnome desktop environment after a
> minimal install of Debian 10.4
> >
>
> If you hit ctrl-alt-F2 you should get a console login, then work from
> there.
>
> -dsr-
>
>

Re: What package should I install to have a working wired LAN connection?

2020-07-28 Thread Dan Ritter

gajuph4...@yahoo.com wrote: 
> I am unable to answer your question, viz. "Does that happen for yours?" 
> because I am unable to boot into the Gnome desktop environment after a 
> minimal install of Debian 10.4
> 

If you hit ctrl-alt-F2 you should get a console login, then work from there.

-dsr-

Re: What package should I install to have a working wired LAN connection?

2020-07-28 Thread Dan Ritter

gajuph4...@yahoo.com wrote: 
> My machine does not have an RJ-45 port.
> 
> Based on my experience with Microsoft Windows OS, I need to use an 
> Ethernet-to-USB adapter to have a wired LAN connection.
> 
> As a result, during Expert Install, Debian 10.4 did not auto-detect the 
> network hardware and it was unable to use DHCP to configure my network.
> 
> Post installation, could someone advise me on which Debian package or driver 
> I should install?
> 
> Note: According to Microsoft Windows, the Ethernet-to-USB adapter is called 
> ASIX AX88179 USB 3.0 to Gigabit Ethernet Adapter.

I have an Amazon USB3 ethernet adapter right here, which uses
the same chipset:

lsusb -v -s 004:006

Bus 004 Device 006: ID 0b95:1790 ASIX Electronics Corp. AX88179
Gigabit Ethernet

ip link show

produces a new enx-prefixed ethernet device as soon as I plug it
in.

Does that happen for yours?

-dsr-

What package should I install to have a working wired LAN connection?

2020-07-28 Thread gajuph4...@yahoo.com

My machine does not have an RJ-45 port.

Based on my experience with Microsoft Windows OS, I need to use an 
Ethernet-to-USB adapter to have a wired LAN connection.

As a result, during Expert Install, Debian 10.4 did not auto-detect the network 
hardware and it was unable to use DHCP to configure my network.

Post installation, could someone advise me on which Debian package or driver I 
should install?

Note: According to Microsoft Windows, the Ethernet-to-USB adapter is called 
ASIX AX88179 USB 3.0 to Gigabit Ethernet Adapter.

Regards.

Alan

Re: what package to edit colors?

2017-11-03 Thread tomas

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Hash: SHA1

On Fri, Nov 03, 2017 at 01:19:12PM -0700, Fred wrote:
> On 11/03/2017 10:41 AM, Siard wrote:
> >Fred wrote:
> >>Xcoloredit was available for Solaris to view system standard colors and
> >>enter rgb values.  I found this is available for some of the BSD
> >>distributions but not Debian.  All I could find is kcolorchooser which
> >>is associated with KDE which I don't use.  Is there another color
> >>viewer/editor package for Debian (Jessie) or does anyone know where the
> >>source code for xcoloredit is?
> >xcolors and xcolorsel may be used to view system standard colors.
> >To view/edit colors, there is gcolor2.
> >BTW, kcolorchooser also works without KDE.
> >
> >
> Hi,
> I don't know why I couldn't find those.  I spent about an hour
> looking through the package lists.  I probably wasn't holding my
> mouth right.

OK, here's the fishing rod :-)

Go, no, *run* and install package "apt-file". Issue apt-file update
in a terminal, and then:

  apt-file search xcolor

(or whatever string you come up). Apt-file searches for packages
containing files matching the pattern. You can control whether the
pattern is interpreted as regex or as a literal (sub)string.

> Gcolor2 seems to be the most useful although it doesn't save new
> colors to the database.  It is easy to edit rgb.txt though.
> 
> Thanks for the help!

You're welcome!

Cheers
- -- t
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Re: what package to edit colors?

2017-11-03 Thread Fred


On 11/03/2017 10:41 AM, Siard wrote:

Fred wrote:

Xcoloredit was available for Solaris to view system standard colors and
enter rgb values.  I found this is available for some of the BSD
distributions but not Debian.  All I could find is kcolorchooser which
is associated with KDE which I don't use.  Is there another color
viewer/editor package for Debian (Jessie) or does anyone know where the
source code for xcoloredit is?

xcolors and xcolorsel may be used to view system standard colors.
To view/edit colors, there is gcolor2.
BTW, kcolorchooser also works without KDE.



Hi,
I don't know why I couldn't find those.  I spent about an hour looking 
through the package lists.  I probably wasn't holding my mouth right.


Gcolor2 seems to be the most useful although it doesn't save new colors 
to the database.  It is easy to edit rgb.txt though.


Thanks for the help!
Best regards,
Fred

Re: what package to edit colors?

2017-11-03 Thread Siard

Fred wrote:
> Xcoloredit was available for Solaris to view system standard colors and 
> enter rgb values.  I found this is available for some of the BSD 
> distributions but not Debian.  All I could find is kcolorchooser which 
> is associated with KDE which I don't use.  Is there another color 
> viewer/editor package for Debian (Jessie) or does anyone know where the 
> source code for xcoloredit is?

xcolors and xcolorsel may be used to view system standard colors.
To view/edit colors, there is gcolor2.
BTW, kcolorchooser also works without KDE.

Re: what package to edit colors?

2017-11-03 Thread tomas

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Hash: SHA1

On Fri, Nov 03, 2017 at 09:46:37AM -0700, Fred wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> Xcoloredit was available for Solaris to view system standard colors
> and enter rgb values.  I found this is available for some of the BSD
> distributions but not Debian.  All I could find is kcolorchooser
> which is associated with KDE which I don't use.  Is there another
> color viewer/editor package for Debian (Jessie) or does anyone know
> where the source code for xcoloredit is?

At first sight I only see two: xcolors and xcolorsel. They don't seem
to have the possibility to enter RGB values (they do show them, though).

Searching the intrawebs for xcoloredit yields some hits -- it seems
to have been part of the X suite at some time. No idea why it isn't
packaged, though.

Cheers
- -- tomás
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what package to edit colors?

2017-11-03 Thread Fred


Hello,

Xcoloredit was available for Solaris to view system standard colors and 
enter rgb values.  I found this is available for some of the BSD 
distributions but not Debian.  All I could find is kcolorchooser which 
is associated with KDE which I don't use.  Is there another color 
viewer/editor package for Debian (Jessie) or does anyone know where the 
source code for xcoloredit is?


Best regards,
Fred Boatwright

Re: bug report - I don't know what package the bug is in

2017-10-05 Thread Don Armstrong

On Thu, 05 Oct 2017, Sergey Storm wrote:
> Hello. I have a problem with keyboard input and I don't know what
> package the bug is in. Bugreport gave me this email address for
> assistance. Help me please.


> I use two languages and switch them using ctrl+shift. But combinations
> ctrl+shift+'any letter' do not correctly work either in the browser,
> or in the konsole. All combinations ctrl+shift+'any letter' run as
> ctrl+'any letter' and language switch. Thank you.

You almost certainly want something like grp:shifts_toggle (both shifts
toggle) or similar, not grp:ctrl_shift (control/shift toggles).

Otherwise you won't be able to type ctrl-shift-key combinations, because
they will shift the layout. man 7 xkeyboard-config; for details about
all of the possible grp: settings for toggling between layouts.

-- 
Don Armstrong  https://www.donarmstrong.com

Some pirates achieved immortality by great deeds of cruelty or
daring-do. Some achieved immortality by amassing great wealth. But
the captain had long ago decided that he would, on the whole, prefer
to achieve immortality by not dying.
 -- Terry Pratchet _The Color of Magic_

bug report - I don't know what package the bug is in

2017-10-05 Thread Sergey Storm

Hello. I have a problem with keyboard input and I don't know what package
the bug is in. Bugreport gave me this email address for assistance. Help me
please.
I use two languages and switch them using ctrl+shift. But combinations
ctrl+shift+'any letter' do not correctly work either in the browser, or in
the konsole. All combinations ctrl+shift+'any letter' run as ctrl+'any
letter' and language switch.
Thank you.

Re: What package is this bug associated with?

2017-07-26 Thread songbird

Byron wrote:
> Reportbug told me to email this address if I wasn't sure which package
> this bug was related to.
>
> My issue is that everything works fine when running GNOME, but when I
> install different desktops (namely LXQT and XFCE) I can't see any panel
> in the top - just a very faint outline of one. The desktop is
> completely blank except for the wallpaper. Also, the only window that
> shows up is if I right click on the desktop in LXqt and choose
> "Configure".
>
> My questions are "Is this a bug" and "if so, what package is it related
> with?"
>
> I am using an external monitor. Installing lightdm and forcing gdm3 to
> run on Xorg didn't do anything.

  i'm not sure, but i suspect it is a feature of a
barebones desktop setup.

  i'm not sure if there are task bars that you add
to those or what.

  sorry, not too familiar with xfce or lxqt, but i do
run lightdm and MATE and that does give you a menu bar.
if you want more you add it to the panels or if you 
want multiple desktops you add those too.

  so, um, i'm guessing you gotta add them yourself.

  do right clicks on the top, right, left, bottom or
middle show options?  do they change based upon where
you are?

  what do the docs say?

  songbird

What package is this bug associated with?

2017-07-26 Thread Byron

Reportbug told me to email this address if I wasn't sure which package
this bug was related to.

My issue is that everything works fine when running GNOME, but when I
install different desktops (namely LXQT and XFCE) I can't see any panel
in the top - just a very faint outline of one. The desktop is
completely blank except for the wallpaper. Also, the only window that
shows up is if I right click on the desktop in LXqt and choose
"Configure".

My questions are "Is this a bug" and "if so, what package is it related
with?"

I am using an external monitor. Installing lightdm and forcing gdm3 to
run on Xorg didn't do anything.

Thanks!

Byron

Re: What Package?

2016-04-11 Thread Curt

On 2016-04-10, Harris Paltrowitz  wrote:
> On Apr 10, 2016, at 11:56 AM, Curt  wrote:
>
> Those that do still use it (Flash) should upgrade to the newest version
> (which I believe is 11.2.202.616) as they've recently fixed some
> critical vulnerabilities (on 4-7-2016).
> -
>
> Any idea whether the package "flashplugin-nonfree" is being updated in
> the same way?"
>

There was a time when the flashplugin-nonfree package was broken somehow
(I don't remember the exact details--see Wanderer's post for what the
package is and how it is supposed to be used). From that point forward I
took it upon myself to retrieve the most recent libflashplayer.so file
and stick it in the appropriate place(s), extracting the library from
the tar.gz archive offered on the Adobe site.  I didn't bother
installing the deb.

-- 
Hypertext--or should I say the ideology of hypertext?--is ultrademocratic and
so entirely in harmony with the demagogic appeals to cultural democracy that
accompany (and distract one’s attention from) the ever-tightening grip of 
plutocratic capitalism. - Susan Sontag

Re: What Package?

2016-04-10 Thread The Wanderer

(Quoting fixed.)

On 2016-04-10 at 18:54, Harris Paltrowitz wrote:

> On Apr 10, 2016, at 11:56 AM, Curt  wrote:
> 
>> Those that do still use it (Flash) should upgrade to the newest
>> version (which I believe is 11.2.202.616) as they've recently fixed
>> some critical vulnerabilities (on 4-7-2016).
> 
> Any idea whether the package "flashplugin-nonfree" is being updated
> in the same way?"

The package itself is just a downloader+installer, with a few associated
utility programs. It doesn't always get updated when the plugin it
downloads does, but you can trigger the download yourself.

To check whether a new version is available upstream, run:
update-flashplugin-nonfree --status

To initiate an update attempt, run:
update-flashplugin-nonfree --install

Both commands will only work as root. (You can get the 'status' command
to work as an ordinary user with fakeroot and the full path, but that's
a bit more complicated.)

Unfortunately, however, just because the 'status' command shows a new
version as being available that doesn't mean the 'install' command will
necessarily pick it up. The 'install' process checks the upstream binary
against a validation list available on the package maintainer's personal
Debian Webspace, and if it doesn't find a match, it doesn't download or
install the new version. (This rather surprised me, the first time I
encountered it.)

In my experience, the new version will become installable via this
procedure within a week or so after it gets released. There's no visible
indication of when this has happened that I know of; you just have to
keep retrying the 'install' command until it goes through.

Anyone interested in exactly how this works is encouraged to examine the
update-flashplugin-nonfree executable; it's a standard shell script,
although a somewhat involved one.

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw

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Re: What Package?

2016-04-10 Thread Harris Paltrowitz

On Apr 10, 2016, at 11:56 AM, Curt  wrote:

Those that do still use it (Flash) should upgrade to the newest version
(which I believe is 11.2.202.616) as they've recently fixed some
critical vulnerabilities (on 4-7-2016).
-

Any idea whether the package "flashplugin-nonfree" is being updated in the same 
way?"

Re: What Package?

2016-04-10 Thread Curt

On 2016-04-09, Adam Wilson  wrote:
>
> Running non-free JavaScript is one of the compromises I am prepared to
> make- but I draw the line at Flash.
>
Those that do still use it (Flash) should upgrade to the newest version
(which I believe is 11.2.202.616) as they've recently fixed some
critical vulnerabilities (on 4-7-2016).

-- 
Hypertext--or should I say the ideology of hypertext?--is ultrademocratic and
so entirely in harmony with the demagogic appeals to cultural democracy that
accompany (and distract one’s attention from) the ever-tightening grip of 
plutocratic capitalism. - Susan Sontag

Re: What Package?

2016-04-09 Thread Adam Wilson

On Wed, 06 Apr 2016 14:08:16 +
Mark Fletcher  wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 12:06 AM Adam Wilson  wrote:
> 
> >
> > There's more there, and I can't really be bothered to go on.
> >
> >
> > Thanks, that is the first time I have seen the whole story pulled
> > together
> in one place.
> 
> Clearly an alternative to Flash is desirable -- I wonder if we are
> really there yet. HTML5 implementation in for example iceweasel in
> Jessie, as well as what I have in Google Chrome on my Android tablet,
> seems a bit basic -- can't for example make the video full-screen as
> there doesn't seem to be a screen gadget to do that.

The HTML5 player is only as good as the website implementing the
standard wants to make it- YouTube's HTML5 player, for instance, is
excellent, and so is the Vimeo player, as well as countless others. The
*reference implementation* so to speak is also good (the player used by
the web browser when playing a video file directly in the browser, such
as:
http://audio-video.gnu.org/video/short--undated--rms--free-software-four-freedoms.ogv).

> Maybe this is a
> specific player on a specific site, but I thought the idea behind
> HTML5 was to standardise such things? Maybe there's a key combination
> but how does one know that? And stability seems to be a problem, I've
> seen a couple of videos that don't play all the way through with an
> HTML5 player but switch to Flash and it works...
> 
> I'd like to see the back of Flash, for all the reasons you've cited,
> but it seems you have to _really_ care to make the compromises
> necessary to do that right now.

What compromises? I don't use Flash, and I haven't experienced any
significant discomfort- it isn't a big sacrifice to make. Few websites
(or at least the websites I visit) require it, and those that do I
avoid. The only ones I can think of off the top of my head are some of
the mainstream news sites, but then they're mostly shit anyway.

I went through a phase of running LibreJS and not even allowing
non-free JavaScript to run. *That* is hard- getting rid of Flash is
nothing compared to getting rid of most JavaScript.

Running non-free JavaScript is one of the compromises I am prepared to
make- but I draw the line at Flash.

pgp59NA3zLjjc.pgp
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Re: What Package?

2016-04-06 Thread Mark Fletcher

On Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 12:06 AM Adam Wilson  wrote:

>
> There's more there, and I can't really be bothered to go on.
>
>
> Thanks, that is the first time I have seen the whole story pulled together
in one place.

Clearly an alternative to Flash is desirable -- I wonder if we are really
there yet. HTML5 implementation in for example iceweasel in Jessie, as well
as what I have in Google Chrome on my Android tablet, seems a bit basic --
can't for example make the video full-screen as there doesn't seem to be a
screen gadget to do that. Maybe this is a specific player on a specific
site, but I thought the idea behind HTML5 was to standardise such things?
Maybe there's a key combination but how does one know that? And stability
seems to be a problem, I've seen a couple of videos that don't play all the
way through with an HTML5 player but switch to Flash and it works...

I'd like to see the back of Flash, for all the reasons you've cited, but it
seems you have to _really_ care to make the compromises necessary to do
that right now.

Anyway, we've wandered away from the topic a little now, which is my fault,
so apologies for that.

Mark

Re: What Package?

2016-04-04 Thread Adam Wilson

On Mon, 04 Apr 2016 13:36:17 +
Mark Fletcher  wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 4, 2016, 3:56 AM Adam Wilson  wrote:
> 
> >
> > The discussion of "security" in non-free software is something of a
> > meaningless distinction, since non-free software is compromised by
> > default. Adobe Flash was always evil- if this perceived
> > "insecurity" is enough to help make people want to stop using it,
> > then by all means it should be promoted.
> >
> 
> I wish we could get a clear statement of what all the fuss is about re
> Flash. A complete stranger's unsupported assertion that Flash is evil
> just doesn't cut it. And shouting louder by repeating the statement
> over and over again, as some on this forum have done in the past,
> doesn't cut it either.

From the standpoint of ethics, Flash is most certainly unethical
(evil), since it violates the right of people to have freedom, to
control their own lives, and to control their own computing without
having some other party pushing us around and preventing us from having
true possession of the things we own.

When I call Flash evil, I am not referring to its design, but rather to
its nature in a system of ethics. It may be very well designed, for all
I care, but a benevolent dictatorship is still a dictatorship, and
should still be opposed.

> There are evidently serious flaws in Flash, either its design or its
> implementation, that warrant all the negativity,

Design and implementation or secondary to licensing- a free license is
necessary for us to even understand and study the design in the first
place. This means that it can be quite hard to understand the design
issues, and what we do know about the design and operation of non-free
programs is the result of deduction rather than open study, as should
be the case.

However, these arguments are probably falling on deaf ears. I shall
thus follow on to some secondary injustices caused by the primary
injustice (non-free software).

> but the odd thing is
> that the clear technical unbiased treatment of the issue seems to be
> completely swamped by quasi religious fervour. Those of us who
> haven't seen the facts, now can't find them. Can anyone point to
> anything unbiased that explains the issue?

I think that in this case, the distinction between a biased and an
unbiased source is somewhat irrelevant. Sources discussing Flash which
point out that it is malware will most certainly be hostile to Flash
and Adobe- sources defending Flash will be friendly to Flash and Adobe.
"Neutral" sources (such as they exist) discuss things more from a web
standards viewpoint rather than a discussion of the program in itself.

Flash is malware because:

It uses resilient "supercookies" (LSOs) to track users. Adobe has gone
out of its way to make these hard to get rid of- they are specifically
designed to weasel their way around browser cookie settings. (1)

Many pieces of Adobe's non-free software report back to Adobe
("checking in") every thirty days, disrupting people's work. The only
way to disable this feature is to stay disconnected from the internet.
(2)

Adobe Flash implements device fingerprinting which is used to track
users- information which can then, of course, be given to other
agencies (...). (3)

Adobe has implemented and been aggressively been pushing DRM in Flash,
which is grief for honest end-users (4), restricts access to
information, and doesn't even move additional product (5). (6)

Flash causes vendor dependence; the completeness of its public
specifications is debatable, and no complete implementation of Flash is
publicly available in source form with a license that permits re-use,
so writing a free replacement is difficult. This is bad because open
formats are what make a format re-implementable- as a result, there is
not a single free implementation of Flash which is anywhere near usable
on the modern web. (7) (8) (9) (10)

Using Flash breaks conventions associated with normal HTML pages. (11)
(12) (13)

From Wikipedia: For many years Adobe Flash Player's security
record (14) has led many security experts to recommend against
installing the player, or to block Flash content. (15) (16) The
US-CERT recommends blocking Flash (17). Security researcher Charlie
Miller recommended "not to install Flash". (18) As of February 12,
2015, Adobe Flash Player has over 400 CVE entries (19), of which over
300 lead to arbitrary code execution, and past vulnerabilities have
enabled spying via web cameras. (20) (21) (22) (23) Security experts
have long predicted the demise of Flash, saying that with the rise of
HTML5 "the need for browser plugins such as Flash is diminishing",
(24) yet a significant proportion of websites still use it. (25) (26)

(1)
http://www.imasuper.com/2008/10/09/flash-cookies-the-silent-privacy-killer

(2) http://shallowsky.com/blog/gimp/non-free-software-surprises.html

(3)

Re: What Package?

2016-04-04 Thread Stefan Monnier

> There are evidently serious flaws in Flash, either its design or its
> implementation, that warrant all the negativity, but the odd thing is that
> the clear technical unbiased treatment of the issue seems to be completely
> swamped by quasi religious fervour. Those of us who haven't seen the facts,
> now can't find them. Can anyone point to anything unbiased that explains
> the issue?

It's resolutely and staunchly proprietary.

So, you can't know what it really does, the user has no control over it.
Using it grants control of your computer to Adobe, fundamentally.

Obviously, it's not the only proprietary program, so the reason why it's
so despised is that it's one of the very few proprietary programs that
lots and lots of people "need" in order to do "ordinary activities",
such as buy some tickets on-line.

I used to stay away from sites that used Flash for this reason (and it
came with added benefit that many ads were using flash, so a browser
without flash support also automatically skipped lots of ads).
Then I got by using Gnash.  And nowadays I'm back to "no flash" because
flash-only sites are rare enough again (and many sites actually work
better if I don't have any flash player, actually, than if I have Gnash
installed).

Of course, now that flash is being replaced with Javascript, we're
learning about the other nasty part: the problem was not just that the
flash player was proprietary, but also that the flash code (now the
javascript code) downloaded from the internet is itself proprietary.
And even when it's Free Software, it's terribly difficult to benefit
from that freedom (i.e. it can be difficult to find the actual source
code (rather than its minified version), and it's even harder to be
able to use a modified version of it).


Stefan

Re: What Package?

2016-04-04 Thread Mark Fletcher

On Mon, Apr 4, 2016, 3:56 AM Adam Wilson  wrote:

>
> The discussion of "security" in non-free software is something of a
> meaningless distinction, since non-free software is compromised by
> default. Adobe Flash was always evil- if this perceived "insecurity" is
> enough to help make people want to stop using it, then by all means it
> should be promoted.
>

I wish we could get a clear statement of what all the fuss is about re
Flash. A complete stranger's unsupported assertion that Flash is evil just
doesn't cut it. And shouting louder by repeating the statement over and
over again, as some on this forum have done in the past, doesn't cut it
either.

There are evidently serious flaws in Flash, either its design or its
implementation, that warrant all the negativity, but the odd thing is that
the clear technical unbiased treatment of the issue seems to be completely
swamped by quasi religious fervour. Those of us who haven't seen the facts,
now can't find them. Can anyone point to anything unbiased that explains
the issue?

(I hope it's clear I am not trying to deny there is an issue here)

Mark

>

Re: What Package?

2016-04-04 Thread The Wanderer

On 2016-04-03 at 17:42, David Wright wrote:

> On Sun 03 Apr 2016 at 18:53:26 (+0300), Adam Wilson wrote:
> 
>> On Sat, 2 Apr 2016 21:45:15 +0200 Jörg-Volker Peetz
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>> second, with the command-line program youtube-dl (package of the
>>> same name) movies can be downloaded from youtube and played by a
>>> movie-player, e.g., vlc.
>> 
>> You do not need to do this. YouTube works without Flash.
> 
> I *always* do this.

Likewise.

> Why pay for the bandwidth twice, thrice,... That's the one benefit of
> flash refraining from playing immediately the link is clicked on.

In addition to the multiple-bandwidth-use consideration, pulling it down
locally means you can choose what player to use, rather than being
limited to whatever features and UI are provided by the streaming site's
built-in player.

That, combined with buffering issues (we may still have been on dial-up
at the time, I don't recall for certain), is the major reason why I
adopted a strict rule of "always pull down locally before watching" for
my own computers - with the only exception being realtime, live streams.

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw

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Re: What Package?

2016-04-03 Thread David Wright

On Sun 03 Apr 2016 at 18:53:26 (+0300), Adam Wilson wrote:
> On Sat, 2 Apr 2016 21:45:15 +0200
> Jörg-Volker Peetz  wrote:
> > second, with the command-line program youtube-dl (package of the same name)
> > movies can be downloaded from youtube and played by a movie-player, e.g., 
> > vlc.
> 
> You do not need to do this. YouTube works without Flash.

I *always* do this. Why pay for the bandwidth twice, thrice,...
That's the one benefit of flash refraining from playing immediately
the link is clicked on.

This is one reasong why I asked (in another thread) what is happening
behind the scenes when you play the "same" movie in HTML5. Is there
a file involved?

Cheers,
David.

Re: What Package?

2016-04-03 Thread John Hasler

Harris writes:
> So if Adobe is no longer supporting Flash for Linux, do you think
> there might be security risks to using the flashplayer-nonfree
> package?

Any malware involved would be targeted at Windows.  Nobody targets Linux
desktops.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: What Package?

2016-04-03 Thread Adam Wilson

On Sun, 3 Apr 2016 14:49:15 -0400
Harris Paltrowitz  wrote:

> On Apr 3, 2016, at 12:29 PM, Siard  wrote:
> 
> Then, for those cases where html5 is not yet available, UNinstall
> flashplayer-nonfree. Adobe has stopped Linux support for it, so it's
> too old for those cases that require a newer version.
> --
> 
> Hi,
> 
> So if Adobe is no longer supporting Flash for Linux, do you think
> there might be security risks to using the flashplayer-nonfree
> package?

The discussion of "security" in non-free software is something of a
meaningless distinction, since non-free software is compromised by
default. Adobe Flash was always evil- if this perceived "insecurity" is
enough to help make people want to stop using it, then by all means it
should be promoted.

pgpLRQ1T5g8ND.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: What Package?

2016-04-03 Thread Harris Paltrowitz

On Apr 3, 2016, at 12:29 PM, Siard  wrote:

Then, for those cases where html5 is not yet available, UNinstall
flashplayer-nonfree. Adobe has stopped Linux support for it, so it's too
old for those cases that require a newer version.
--

Hi,

So if Adobe is no longer supporting Flash for Linux, do you think there might 
be security risks to using the flashplayer-nonfree package? 

-Harris

Re: What Package?

2016-04-03 Thread Jörg-Volker Peetz

Adam Wilson wrote on 04/03/16 17:53:
> On Sat, 2 Apr 2016 21:45:15 +0200
> Jörg-Volker Peetz  wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>>
>> in order to watch youtube movies:
>>
>> first, try iceweasel without flash-plugin (disable or even un-install the
>> plugin) and after removing any cookies from youtube;
>> (maybe you feel more motivated to do that after reading this article titled
>> "Flash – Low-hanging fruit for attackers | Business Security Insider by
>> F-Secure" https://business.f-secure.com/have-you-disabled-flash-yet/ ;-)
>>
>> second, with the command-line program youtube-dl (package of the same name)
>> movies can be downloaded from youtube and played by a movie-player, e.g., 
>> vlc.
> 
> You do not need to do this. YouTube works without Flash.
> 
Yes, should have said "possibilities" instead of "in order".

Regards,
jvp.

Re: What Package?

2016-04-03 Thread John Hasler

Siard writes:
> But if you also install browser-plugin-freshplayer-pepperflash, then
> you can view them in iceweasel as well as other NPAPI web browsers
> such as seamonkey and the new vivaldi browser.

I just tried that.  It "worked", but the load went above three and
Firefox quit responding.  Might be ok if you have a modern computer.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: What Package?

2016-04-03 Thread Siard

Arnoud van der Veer wrote:
> i cannot watch anything in Iceweasel on Youtube

First, go to www.youtube.com/html5 and set YouTube's HTML5 player to be
used wherever possible. This setting is stored in a cookie.

Then, for those cases where html5 is not yet available, UNinstall
flashplayer-nonfree. Adobe has stopped Linux support for it, so it's too
old for those cases that require a newer version.

Instead, install pepperflashplugin-nonfree. Whenever a flash video does
not work in iceweasel, you can view it in chromium.

But if you also install browser-plugin-freshplayer-pepperflash, then you
can view them in iceweasel as well as other NPAPI web browsers such as
seamonkey and the new vivaldi browser.

Re: What Package?

2016-04-03 Thread Adam Wilson

On Sat, 2 Apr 2016 17:28:52 + (UTC)
Arnoud van der Veer  wrote:

> I am having problems with playing flash files while using Iceweasel in 
> Debian.Iam using Debian for about 4 weeks now and have never been able to 
> play flash files: unknown SWF file. (flash player plugin crashes)

Being able to open and play SWF files has nothing to do with your web browser. 
Try install GNU Gnash, a free flash player, by running the following:

# apt-get install gnash

You should then be able to open SWF files using Gnash.

> Bit of a pain really: uploaded a movie to youtube today, in order to look at 
> it on Youtube I had to refer to a computer with Windows installed since i 
> cannot watch anything in Iceweasel on Youtube (and many other websites) using 
> Debian.

Which version of Iceweasel are you using? I am using 38.7.1esr-1~deb8u1, and I 
can watch YouTube videos without Flash. I would recommend uninstalling your 
Flash plugin, so that it does not interfere with YouTube's HTML5 video player.

pgp9MvTH3I4Fq.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: What Package?

2016-04-03 Thread Adam Wilson

On Sat, 2 Apr 2016 21:45:15 +0200
Jörg-Volker Peetz  wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> in order to watch youtube movies:
> 
> first, try iceweasel without flash-plugin (disable or even un-install the
> plugin) and after removing any cookies from youtube;
> (maybe you feel more motivated to do that after reading this article titled
> "Flash – Low-hanging fruit for attackers | Business Security Insider by
> F-Secure" https://business.f-secure.com/have-you-disabled-flash-yet/ ;-)
> 
> second, with the command-line program youtube-dl (package of the same name)
> movies can be downloaded from youtube and played by a movie-player, e.g., vlc.

You do not need to do this. YouTube works without Flash.


pgpuB6hlIY7ip.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: What Package?

2016-04-02 Thread kamaraju kusumanchi

On Sat, Apr 2, 2016 at 1:28 PM, Arnoud van der Veer
<arnoudvanderv...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I am having problems with playing flash files while using Iceweasel in
> Debian.
> Iam using Debian for about 4 weeks now and have never been able to play
> flash files: unknown SWF file. (flash player plugin crashes)
> Bit of a pain really: uploaded a movie to youtube today, in order to look at
> it on Youtube I had to refer to a computer with Windows installed since i
> cannot watch anything in Iceweasel on Youtube (and many other websites)
> using Debian.
> Please let me know what package this concerns so that I can file a
> bugreport. I do not succeed in this since I do not know what package this
> involves, although I have tried to file in a bug report.
>
> Thanks, kind regards, Arnoud van der Veer, the Netherlands

I am able to play videos on youtube.com in iceweasel using the
following set of packages.

% dpkg -l \*iceweasel\* \*flash\* | grep ^ii | grep -v l10n
ii  flashplugin-nonfree 1:3.6.1  amd64
Adobe Flash Player - browser plugin
ii  iceweasel   38.7.1esr-1~deb8u1   amd64Web
browser based on Firefox
ii  iceweasel-vimperator3.8.2-2  all
Iceweasel extension to make it have vim look and feel
ii  libhal1-flash   0.3.2-dmo2+bp1   amd64
Compatibility library to allow playback of flash DRM content

and my sources.list is

% stuff.pl /etc/apt/sources.list
deb http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ jessie main contrib non-free
deb-src http://ftp.us.debian.org/debian/ jessie main contrib non-free
deb http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ jessie-updates main contrib non-free
deb-src http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ jessie-updates main contrib non-free
deb http://security.debian.org/ jessie/updates main contrib non-free
deb-src http://security.debian.org/ jessie/updates main contrib non-free


thanks
raju
-- 
Kamaraju S Kusumanchi | http://raju.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Blog

Re: What Package?

2016-04-02 Thread Jörg-Volker Peetz

Hi,

in order to watch youtube movies:

first, try iceweasel without flash-plugin (disable or even un-install the
plugin) and after removing any cookies from youtube;
(maybe you feel more motivated to do that after reading this article titled
"Flash – Low-hanging fruit for attackers | Business Security Insider by
F-Secure" https://business.f-secure.com/have-you-disabled-flash-yet/ ;-)

second, with the command-line program youtube-dl (package of the same name)
movies can be downloaded from youtube and played by a movie-player, e.g., vlc.

Regards,
jvp.

What package this bug belongs to?

2015-12-10 Thread Qwerty

Hi. Sorry for my English.

I'm going to describe my bug, as a response I need to know to which package
should I report it using the "reportbug" command / application ("reportbug"
in fact told me to ask this to this email address).

Info:
I'm using Debian 8.2 Jessie, Gnome 3.14.1

Preface:
>From here on, Drop down list = Combo box

Summary:
Drop down lists, aka "Combo boxes" don't work anywhere.

Bug Details :
When clicking a drop down list
 on *various different
*applications
wich I would describe soon, the list opens and I can see the options. But
if I release the mouse button, the list closes immediately. I can't select
the desired option by navigating with the mouse while holding the click
button pressed, that doesn't select or "shadow" the options. So I can't
select any option, and thus I can't change many configurations everywhere
in my system.
It should normally open and remain open until you choose a option or until
for example, the user clicks outside the options space.

My bug is *very *similar to this
 one,
except that I have it everywhere, not in Moneydance, I have it in the
default Gnome applications.

Places where there are drop down list that don't work:
1) The drop down menu in Rythmbox for choosing from where to import songs.
2) All the drop downs menu found in Settings. Such as Settings > Details >
Default applications (here there are around 6 drop down list, all with the
same bug) or Settings > Details > Removable media has also many drop down
lists and none work like they are supposed to.

Thanks.

Re: What package this bug belongs to?

2015-12-10 Thread Sven Arvidsson

On Thu, 2015-12-10 at 15:40 -0300, Qwerty wrote:
> Places where there are drop down list that don't work:
> 1) The drop down menu in Rythmbox for choosing from where to import
> songs.
> 2) All the drop downs menu found in Settings. Such as Settings >
> Details >
> Default applications (here there are around 6 drop down list, all
> with the
> same bug) or Settings > Details > Removable media has also many drop
> down
> lists and none work like they are supposed to.


Hi, 

Have you installed and use a different theme for GTK+? If so, can you
reproduce the problem with the default theme?

I found a similar bug that has been fixed since:
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=775338

and in that case it was a problem with the theme.

-- 
Cheers,
Sven Arvidsson
http://www.whiz.se
PGP Key ID 6FAB5CD5





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Re: What package contains the time daemon?

2015-07-28 Thread Mart van de Wege

Dennis Wicks w...@mgssub.com writes:

 Mart van de Wege wrote on 07/27/2015 12:49 AM:
 Gary Dale garyd...@torfree.net writes:

 On 26/07/15 02:44 PM, Mart van de Wege wrote:
 Gary Dale garyd...@torfree.net writes:

 Upgrading to sid is asking for trouble. Sid isn't called unstable for
 nothing.

 I know. I really do. I only have been running Debian since potato. On
 the other hand, someone's gotta run Sid, or it'll never get debugged.

 Yeah, well that ain't me. I have enough trouble with releases labeled
 stable!

And to pour more oil on the fire, I built a VM to try and reproduce the
problem, and it booted right up, DHCP+NFS and all. Gr.

Mart

-- 
We will need a longer wall when the revolution comes.
--- AJS, quoting an uncertain source.


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Re: What package contains the time daemon?

2015-07-27 Thread Dennis Wicks


Mart van de Wege wrote on 07/27/2015 12:49 AM:

Gary Dale garyd...@torfree.net writes:


On 26/07/15 02:44 PM, Mart van de Wege wrote:

Gary Dale garyd...@torfree.net writes:


Upgrading to sid is asking for trouble. Sid isn't called unstable for
nothing.


I know. I really do. I only have been running Debian since potato. On
the other hand, someone's gotta run Sid, or it'll never get debugged.


Yeah, well that ain't me. I have enough trouble with 
releases labeled stable!




Mart




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Re: What package contains the time daemon?

2015-07-27 Thread Dennis Wicks


Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote on 07/26/2015 03:40 PM:

On Sun, 26 Jul 2015 15:27:50 -0500
John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com wrote:


I want to be able to set the time if for some reason the clock is
completely incorrect (this occurred from time to time in the past).


Use your wristwatch.

 Or better, your cellphone or GPS receiver.


   Or: http://nist.time.gov
   Or: (303) 499-7111



Cheers,

Ron.




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Re: What package contains the time daemon?

2015-07-27 Thread Mart van de Wege

Gary Dale garyd...@torfree.net writes:

 On 26/07/15 02:44 PM, Mart van de Wege wrote:
 Gary Dale garyd...@torfree.net writes:

 Upgrading to sid is asking for trouble. Sid isn't called unstable for
 nothing.

I know. I really do. I only have been running Debian since potato. On
the other hand, someone's gotta run Sid, or it'll never get debugged.

Mart

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Re: What package contains the time daemon?

On 2015-07-26 02:31:45 +0200, Michael Biebl wrote:
 You can have a client, which is a daemon.
 ntp implements both, an NTP client and server.
 systemd-timesyncd only implements a client (running as daemon).
 chrony, fwiw, is another client (running as daemon).
 ntpdate is a client (triggered via if-up.d hooks).

Unfortunately none of them is secure, I mean: some attacker won't
tend to make the date on your machine incorrect because of lack
of authentication.

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Re: What package contains the time daemon?

On Sunday 26 July 2015 13:17:02 Renaud  OLGIATI wrote:
 On Sun, 26 Jul 2015 10:54:35 +0100

 Lisi Reisz lisi.re...@gmail.com wrote:
  But that is for wheezy and earlier.  systemd is, of course, different.

 Maybe the list should implement a rule, that people asking a question tell
 us whether they are running systemd or not.

 Given that the advent of systemd has, as a stroke, made all the knowledge
 acquired over the years by Linux old-timers obsolete, it would avoid advice
 being given, that turns out to be useless to the user.

 This latter point may also, in part, explain resistance to the adoption of
 systemd, and the rise of systemd-free distributions...

Yes, on my one systemd box, I had a problem with which no-one could help me. 

I do not allege that systemd directly caused it, but that the advent of 
systemd caused a lot that had worked one way before, to have to work 
differently now; that there are still some glitches in this, and that we, as 
a group, do not know the answers.  I asked on two lists, fiddled, went spare, 
decided that life is too short and reinstalled.  With Jessie again.  It is 
lovely, but ...

I am now terrified to upgrade because the problem arose as a result of a 
mistake I made during a routine upgrade.  It is a mistake I have made before, 
and always been able to get out of before.  If I make it again, I shall 
reinstall again much earlier.

I am not upgrading my desktop yet.  Wheezy is long term.  In a year or so 
Jessie may have settled down, the bugs may have been ironed out, and we may 
all have acquired some expertise.  Or I can wait for Stretch.  I am not 
tempted to leave Debian, and am still very grateful for it.  But I do think 
that it is a pity that Jessie was released.  It was not, IMHO, release ready.  
Yes, it runs beautifully for many people, but it is not stable, however much 
it may be Stable.  There are too many problems.  And as Renaud says, not 
enough expertise.

Lisi


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Re: What package contains the time daemon?

On 2015-07-26 07:53:45 -0500, John Hasler wrote:
 Vincent Lefevre writes:
  Unfortunately none of them is secure, I mean: some attacker won't tend
  to make the date on your machine incorrect because of lack of
  authentication.
 
 http://www.ntp.org/ntpfaq/NTP-s-config-adv.htm
 
 See section 6.6.2, Authentication

No, this is completely ridiculous: The keys residing in /etc/ntp.keys
typically are unencrypted and thus should be hidden from public.

I don't see how this can work with public NTP servers!

 Even without it, though, sucessfully spoofing all four of the servers
 you use would be challenging.

I don't see why this would be difficult for someone who controls the
local network (e.g. the wifi hotspot).

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Re: What package contains the time daemon?

2015-07-26 Thread Brian

On Sun 26 Jul 2015 at 14:57:02 +0200, Sven Hartge wrote:

 Michael Biebl bi...@debian.org wrote:
 
  The assumption here is, that if the admin explicitly installed ntp, it
  should be preferred of systemd-timesyncd.
  See
 
  /lib/systemd/system/systemd-timesyncd.service.d/disable-with-time-daemon.conf
 
 That one is not present in Sid.

It is with systemd 222-2.


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Re: What package contains the time daemon?

2015-07-26 Thread Michael Biebl

Am 26.07.2015 um 15:39 schrieb Vincent Lefevre:
 On 2015-07-26 14:25:20 +0100, Brian wrote:
 On Sun 26 Jul 2015 at 13:59:02 +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote:
 On Sunday 26 July 2015 13:38:45 Michael Biebl wrote:

 Yes. You actually need to do that. As long as ntp is installed,
 systemd-timesyncd won't start.
 The assumption here is, that if the admin explicitly installed ntp, it
 should be preferred of systemd-timesyncd.
 See

  #
 /lib/systemd/system/systemd-timesyncd.service.d/disable-with-time-daemon.co
 nf [Unit]
 # don't run timesyncd if we have another NTP daemon installed
 ConditionFileIsExecutable=!/usr/sbin/ntpd
 ConditionFileIsExecutable=!/usr/sbin/openntpd
 ConditionFileIsExecutable=!/usr/sbin/chronyd

 So ntp won't actually harm anything.  It is just unnecessary.

 It is necessary to purge it if you want to use systemd-timesyncd. If you
 prefer to use ntp instead of systemd-timesyncd it is not unnecessary.
 
 Can't the systemd configuration be changed without having to purge
 ntp (e.g. to be able to switch between them easily)?

You are right, having ntp installed doesn't necessarily mean it is
actually enabled. But I would assume for most users this is the case.

The Conditions were added to prevent multiple NTP clients being started
at the same time.
If you want to get rid of those start conditions, you can easily do that.

Run
$ mkdir /etc/systemd/system/systemd-timesyncd.service.d/
$ touch
/etc/systemd/system/systemd-timesyncd.service.d/disable-with-time-daemon.conf
$ systemctl daemon-reload

This will create an empty file which overrides the distro provided
disable-with-time-daemon.conf


Long term, we want ntp to ship a native service file which has
Conflicts=systemd-timesyncd.service
This way, only if ntp is installed *and* ntp.service is enabled, it will
make sure an enabled systemd-timesyncd.service will not be started.

In jessie and sid, ntp does not yet ship a native service file. That's
why we chose to add those Conditions. Consider those a temporary workaround.

HTH,
Michael




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Re: What package contains the time daemon?

Systemd-timesyncd is not a replacement for Ntpd or Chrony.  It is just
an SNTP client similar to that used by Microsoft.  It queries a single
server and does no error checking or authentication.  Basically, it
replaces a cron job running Ntpdate.
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jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA


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Re: What package contains the time daemon? (CHRONY not approx vs ntp)

2015-07-26 Thread Paul E Condon

REPLACE approx with chrony in the following;
 Also years ago, and still today, there is approx which does a much
 more sophisticated analysis of the data stream of repeated queries of
 an ntp server. In addition to setting the local clock to the
 same time as the external reference clock as is done by both ntp and
 ntpdate, approx computes an estimate of *rate* of ticking of the local
 clock. Properly used, in a stable HVAC environment, it can keep the
 local clock synced with internet time with as few as one reading per
 week of the external internet time.
 
 It is my experience that internet time is vastly inferior to the
 precision of proper laboratory grade atomic clocks of a decade or two
 ago. Furthermore, no one really wants his computer clock to be
 scientifically correct to the point of being useful for running the
 data links to the space probe to Pluto. What everyone should want is
 just that their computer clock agrees with the computer clocks of the
 web sites with which they communicate. THAT is largely determined by
 social convention, which cares very little about logical scientific
 correctness.
 
 Here we see an example of a further meta-question concerning the
 socially correct words to use in covering up the underlying technical
 complexity. ;-)
 
 Best regards,
 -- 
 Paul E Condon   
 pecon...@mesanetworks.net
 

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Re: What package contains the time daemon?

2015-07-26 Thread Chris Bannister

On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 10:54:35AM +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote:
 On Sunday 26 July 2015 05:09:37 CaT wrote:
  On Sat, Jul 25, 2015 at 11:32:53PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
   It is, once ntpdate has slammed the correct time into the system at boot
   time, then ntp takes over.
 
  Unless I misremember, you don't even need ntpdate. Starting ntp with
  -g will do just fine (and it's the default config - I add -N). I don't
  even have ntpdate installed.
 
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stockings and a Jack Russell terrier.
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  http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/wacky/indeed/story-e6frev20-11808

LOL

 I just:
 # aptitude install ntp
 after that it just looks after itself.
 
 But that is for wheezy and earlier.  systemd is, of course, different.

Hmmm, if it is, I still have ntp running. I wonder if it's actually
doing anything if systemd is now doing it.

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Re: What package contains the time daemon?

2015-07-26 Thread Chris Bannister

On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 02:03:48AM +0200, Michael Biebl wrote:
 Am 25.07.2015 um 21:26 schrieb Holger Schramm:
  Am 25.07.2015 um 20:52 schrieb John J. Boyer:
  I am wondering if my Jessie system is updating its clock regularly. It 
  gives a 
  different time than my Windows box. What package contains the daemon 
  that updates the time from a central site?
  
  If you are using systemd, look for timedatectl. Settings are at
  /etc/systemd/timesyncd.conf
 
 In most cases, simply running systemctl enable systemd-timesyncd and
 starting it via systemctl start systemd-timesyncd should be
 sufficient. In stretch, systemd-timesyncd is actually enabled by
 default, for jessie, you need to enable it explicitly.

I think that answers my other post in this thread.
Does that mean, once enabled, the package ntp can be purged?

-- 
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Re: What package contains the time daemon?

2015-07-26 Thread Ron

On Sun, 26 Jul 2015 10:54:35 +0100
Lisi Reisz lisi.re...@gmail.com wrote:

 But that is for wheezy and earlier.  systemd is, of course, different.

Maybe the list should implement a rule, that people asking a question tell us 
whether they are running systemd or not.

Given that the advent of systemd has, as a stroke, made all the knowledge 
acquired over the years by Linux old-timers obsolete, it would avoid advice 
being given, that turns out to be useless to the user.

This latter point may also, in part, explain resistance to the adoption of 
systemd, and the rise of systemd-free distributions...
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
   They that can give up essential liberty
 to obtain a little temporary safety
 deserve neither liberty nor safety.
  -- Benjamin Franklin

   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 


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Re: What package contains the time daemon?

2015-07-26 Thread Michael Biebl

Am 26.07.2015 um 13:44 schrieb Chris Bannister:
 On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 02:03:48AM +0200, Michael Biebl wrote:
 Am 25.07.2015 um 21:26 schrieb Holger Schramm:
 Am 25.07.2015 um 20:52 schrieb John J. Boyer:
 I am wondering if my Jessie system is updating its clock regularly. It 
 gives a 
 different time than my Windows box. What package contains the daemon 
 that updates the time from a central site?

 If you are using systemd, look for timedatectl. Settings are at
 /etc/systemd/timesyncd.conf

 In most cases, simply running systemctl enable systemd-timesyncd and
 starting it via systemctl start systemd-timesyncd should be
 sufficient. In stretch, systemd-timesyncd is actually enabled by
 default, for jessie, you need to enable it explicitly.
 
 I think that answers my other post in this thread.
 Does that mean, once enabled, the package ntp can be purged?

Yes. You actually need to do that. As long as ntp is installed,
systemd-timesyncd won't start.
The assumption here is, that if the admin explicitly installed ntp, it
should be preferred of systemd-timesyncd.
See

 #
/lib/systemd/system/systemd-timesyncd.service.d/disable-with-time-daemon.conf
[Unit]
# don't run timesyncd if we have another NTP daemon installed
ConditionFileIsExecutable=!/usr/sbin/ntpd
ConditionFileIsExecutable=!/usr/sbin/openntpd
ConditionFileIsExecutable=!/usr/sbin/chronyd



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Re: What package contains the time daemon?

On Sunday 26 July 2015 15:14:03 Michael Biebl wrote:
 Am 26.07.2015 um 14:57 schrieb Lisi Reisz:
  Yes, on my one systemd box, I had a problem with which no-one could help
  me.
 
  I do not allege that systemd directly caused it, but that the advent of
  systemd caused a lot that had worked one way before, to have to work
  differently now; that there are still some glitches in this, and that we,
  as a group, do not know the answers.  I asked on two lists, fiddled, went
  spare, decided that life is too short and reinstalled.  With Jessie
  again.  It is lovely, but ...

 Can you point me to your problem please?

Basically, I couldn't reconfigure, reinstall, purge and reinstall tdm, 
reconfigure and use LightDM, purge and use LightDM, I couldn't do anyhting 
without getting an error message about PID 0. 
As in this (left hand edge is missing):

# aptitude reinstall tdm-trinity

up tdm-trinity 94:14.0.1~pre21-0debian8.0.0.2~a)...
top-daemon:pid value must be a number greater than 0
start-stop-daemon --help for more information
--

And I couldn't - and this is totally mad - purge LXDE to the point where it 
wouldn't be brought up in as an emergency offering.  I could find no way of 
getting back to TDE, and I kept getting this wretched message about PID 0.  I 
thought that if I purged LXDE it would have to give me TDE - or only the CLI.   
But it went on booting into LXDE.  :-(

Here is the beginning of the thread on this list.

https://lists.debian.org/201503301125.57809.lisi.re...@gmail.com

I didn't try Darac's suggestion, because it had been going on for a long time 
by then, and I could barely see what I was doing.  So I'm afraid that that 
was the point at which I chickened out and reinstalled.

Here are two of teh threads on the Trinity DE list:

http://trinity-users.pearsoncomputing.net/?0::8090
http://trinity-users.pearsoncomputing.net/?0::8232

I have now, of course, reinstalled.  Though it would be nice to think that I 
don't have to reinstall next time I make a mistake. ;-)

I have made this mistake a number of times over the years.  It has never 
before been a problem to sort out.

Lisi


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Re: OT Re: What package contains the time daemon?

 It may have been an X-Y question, but the answer to the question
 actually asked, was ntp.

That is *an* answer.  The full answer is that the Chrony and Ntp
packages provide time daemons.  Systemd-timesyncd provides an SNTP
client which is probably adequate for most users.
-- 
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jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA


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Re: What package contains the time daemon?

2015-07-26 Thread Sven Hartge

Sven Hartge s...@svenhartge.de wrote:

 /lib/systemd/system/systemd-timesyncd.service.d/disable-with-time-daemon.conf

 That one is not present in Sid.

Ah, -ENOCOFFEE, I meant of course That one is not present in Jessie.

S°

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Re: What package contains the time daemon?

anxiousmac writes:
 Years ago ... we didn't all have always-on connections.

Chrony was developed to solve that problem.
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Re: What package contains the time daemon?

2015-07-26 Thread Brian

On Sun 26 Jul 2015 at 15:39:48 +0200, Vincent Lefevre wrote:

 On 2015-07-26 14:25:20 +0100, Brian wrote:
  On Sun 26 Jul 2015 at 13:59:02 +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote:
   On Sunday 26 July 2015 13:38:45 Michael Biebl wrote:
   
Yes. You actually need to do that. As long as ntp is installed,
systemd-timesyncd won't start.
The assumption here is, that if the admin explicitly installed ntp, it
should be preferred of systemd-timesyncd.
See
   
 #
/lib/systemd/system/systemd-timesyncd.service.d/disable-with-time-daemon.co
   nf [Unit]
# don't run timesyncd if we have another NTP daemon installed
ConditionFileIsExecutable=!/usr/sbin/ntpd
ConditionFileIsExecutable=!/usr/sbin/openntpd
ConditionFileIsExecutable=!/usr/sbin/chronyd
   
   So ntp won't actually harm anything.  It is just unnecessary.
  
  It is necessary to purge it if you want to use systemd-timesyncd. If you
  prefer to use ntp instead of systemd-timesyncd it is not unnecessary.
 
 Can't the systemd configuration be changed without having to purge
 ntp (e.g. to be able to switch between them easily)?
 
 IMHO, it is bad to be forced to uninstall a package just to make
 some other package work.

Like not being able to have postfix/exim4 and cups/lprng on a machine at
the same time, you mean?


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Re: What package contains the time daemon?

2015-07-26 Thread Chris Bannister

On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 02:38:45PM +0200, Michael Biebl wrote:
 Am 26.07.2015 um 13:44 schrieb Chris Bannister:
  On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 02:03:48AM +0200, Michael Biebl wrote:
 
  If you are using systemd, look for timedatectl. Settings are at
  /etc/systemd/timesyncd.conf
 
  In most cases, simply running systemctl enable systemd-timesyncd and
  starting it via systemctl start systemd-timesyncd should be
  sufficient. In stretch, systemd-timesyncd is actually enabled by
  default, for jessie, you need to enable it explicitly.
  
  I think that answers my other post in this thread.
  Does that mean, once enabled, the package ntp can be purged?
 
 Yes. You actually need to do that. As long as ntp is installed,
 systemd-timesyncd won't start.

Thanks.

-- 
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who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X


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Re: What package contains the time daemon?

2015-07-26 Thread Brian

On Sun 26 Jul 2015 at 13:59:02 +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote:

 On Sunday 26 July 2015 13:38:45 Michael Biebl wrote:
 
  Yes. You actually need to do that. As long as ntp is installed,
  systemd-timesyncd won't start.
  The assumption here is, that if the admin explicitly installed ntp, it
  should be preferred of systemd-timesyncd.
  See
 
   #
  /lib/systemd/system/systemd-timesyncd.service.d/disable-with-time-daemon.co
 nf [Unit]
  # don't run timesyncd if we have another NTP daemon installed
  ConditionFileIsExecutable=!/usr/sbin/ntpd
  ConditionFileIsExecutable=!/usr/sbin/openntpd
  ConditionFileIsExecutable=!/usr/sbin/chronyd
 
 So ntp won't actually harm anything.  It is just unnecessary.

It is necessary to purge it if you want to use systemd-timesyncd. If you
prefer to use ntp instead of systemd-timesyncd it is not unnecessary.


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OT Re: What package contains the time daemon?

2015-07-26 Thread Bob Bernstein


On Sun, 26 Jul 2015, Michael Biebl wrote:

Yes. You actually need to do that. As long as ntp is 
installed, systemd-timesyncd won't start.


I'd like to suggest that if I were a vindictive, 
morally shallow person I would be rushing back into 
this thread to point out: Oh look! Another reason why 
the correct answer to the OP's question is NOT ntp.


nb. h/t to Michael who makes more sense in one of his 
posts then everyone else does in a day!



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Re: OT Re: What package contains the time daemon?

On Sunday 26 July 2015 14:52:56 Bob Bernstein wrote:
 Another reason why
 the correct answer to the OP's question is NOT ntp.

The question was:
What package contains the time daemon? 

 It may have been an X-Y question, but the answer to the question actually 
asked, was ntp.

Lisi


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Re: What package contains the time daemon?

2015-07-26 Thread Sven Hartge

Michael Biebl bi...@debian.org wrote:
 Am 26.07.2015 um 13:44 schrieb Chris Bannister:
 On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 02:03:48AM +0200, Michael Biebl wrote:
 Am 25.07.2015 um 21:26 schrieb Holger Schramm:
 Am 25.07.2015 um 20:52 schrieb John J. Boyer:

 I am wondering if my Jessie system is updating its clock
 regularly. It gives a different time than my Windows box. What
 package contains the daemon that updates the time from a central
 site?

[...]

 I think that answers my other post in this thread.
 Does that mean, once enabled, the package ntp can be purged?

 Yes. You actually need to do that. As long as ntp is installed,
 systemd-timesyncd won't start.

In Stretch/Sid: yes.

In Jessie: no

 The assumption here is, that if the admin explicitly installed ntp, it
 should be preferred of systemd-timesyncd.
 See

 /lib/systemd/system/systemd-timesyncd.service.d/disable-with-time-daemon.conf

That one is not present in Sid.

Grüße,
Sven.

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Re: What package contains the time daemon?

On Sunday 26 July 2015 13:38:45 Michael Biebl wrote:
 Am 26.07.2015 um 13:44 schrieb Chris Bannister:
  On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 02:03:48AM +0200, Michael Biebl wrote:
  Am 25.07.2015 um 21:26 schrieb Holger Schramm:
  Am 25.07.2015 um 20:52 schrieb John J. Boyer:
  I am wondering if my Jessie system is updating its clock regularly. It
  gives a
  different time than my Windows box. What package contains the daemon
  that updates the time from a central site?
 
  If you are using systemd, look for timedatectl. Settings are at
  /etc/systemd/timesyncd.conf
 
  In most cases, simply running systemctl enable systemd-timesyncd and
  starting it via systemctl start systemd-timesyncd should be
  sufficient. In stretch, systemd-timesyncd is actually enabled by
  default, for jessie, you need to enable it explicitly.
 
  I think that answers my other post in this thread.
  Does that mean, once enabled, the package ntp can be purged?

 Yes. You actually need to do that. As long as ntp is installed,
 systemd-timesyncd won't start.
 The assumption here is, that if the admin explicitly installed ntp, it
 should be preferred of systemd-timesyncd.
 See

  #
 /lib/systemd/system/systemd-timesyncd.service.d/disable-with-time-daemon.co
nf [Unit]
 # don't run timesyncd if we have another NTP daemon installed
 ConditionFileIsExecutable=!/usr/sbin/ntpd
 ConditionFileIsExecutable=!/usr/sbin/openntpd
 ConditionFileIsExecutable=!/usr/sbin/chronyd

So ntp won't actually harm anything.  It is just unnecessary.

Lisi


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Re: What package contains the time daemon?

2015-07-26 Thread Michael Biebl

Am 26.07.2015 um 14:57 schrieb Lisi Reisz:
 Yes, on my one systemd box, I had a problem with which no-one could help me. 
 
 I do not allege that systemd directly caused it, but that the advent of 
 systemd caused a lot that had worked one way before, to have to work 
 differently now; that there are still some glitches in this, and that we, as 
 a group, do not know the answers.  I asked on two lists, fiddled, went spare, 
 decided that life is too short and reinstalled.  With Jessie again.  It is 
 lovely, but ...

Can you point me to your problem please?


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Re: What package contains the time daemon? (approx vs ntp)

2015-07-26 Thread Nicolas George

L'octidi 8 thermidor, an CCXXIII, Paul E Condon a écrit :
 Also years ago, and still today, there is chrony which does a much
 more sophisticated analysis of the data stream of repeated queries of
 an ntp server. In addition to setting the local clock to the
 same time as the external reference clock as is done by both ntp and
 ntpdate, approx computes an estimate of *rate* of ticking of the local
 clock.

Unless I am mistaken, nowadays the kernel does that by itself, provided the
NTP client uses adtime() or a variant and not a brutal settimeofday().

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Re: What package contains the time daemon? (approx vs ntp)

Paul E Condon writes:
 Also years ago, and still today, there is approx which does a much
 more sophisticated analysis of the data stream of repeated queries of
 an ntp server. In addition to setting the local clock to the same time
 as the external reference clock as is done by both ntp and ntpdate,
 approx computes an estimate of *rate* of ticking of the local clock.

Ntpd and Chrony have always done that and more.
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Re: What package contains the time daemon?

2015-07-26 Thread anxiousmac

On Sunday, 26 July 2015 05:30:04 UTC+1, CaT  wrote:
 On Sat, Jul 25, 2015 at 11:32:53PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
  It is, once ntpdate has slammed the correct time into the system at boot 
  time, then ntp takes over.
 
 Unless I misremember, you don't even need ntpdate. Starting ntp with
 -g will do just fine (and it's the default config - I add -N). I don't
 even have ntpdate installed.
 
 -- 
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Years ago, there was some concern about load on ntp servers. And we didn't all 
have always-on connections. I guess that is still the case. Ntpdate could be 
run from cron as often as necessary. It was usually good enough unless the 
computer's internal clock drifted alarmingly.

anxiousmac


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Re: What package contains the time daemon?

Vincent Lefevre writes:
 Unfortunately none of them is secure, I mean: some attacker won't tend
 to make the date on your machine incorrect because of lack of
 authentication.

http://www.ntp.org/ntpfaq/NTP-s-config-adv.htm

See section 6.6.2, Authentication

Even without it, though, sucessfully spoofing all four of the servers
you use would be challenging.
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Re: What package contains the time daemon?

On 2015-07-26 14:25:20 +0100, Brian wrote:
 On Sun 26 Jul 2015 at 13:59:02 +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote:
  On Sunday 26 July 2015 13:38:45 Michael Biebl wrote:
  
   Yes. You actually need to do that. As long as ntp is installed,
   systemd-timesyncd won't start.
   The assumption here is, that if the admin explicitly installed ntp, it
   should be preferred of systemd-timesyncd.
   See
  
#
   /lib/systemd/system/systemd-timesyncd.service.d/disable-with-time-daemon.co
  nf [Unit]
   # don't run timesyncd if we have another NTP daemon installed
   ConditionFileIsExecutable=!/usr/sbin/ntpd
   ConditionFileIsExecutable=!/usr/sbin/openntpd
   ConditionFileIsExecutable=!/usr/sbin/chronyd
  
  So ntp won't actually harm anything.  It is just unnecessary.
 
 It is necessary to purge it if you want to use systemd-timesyncd. If you
 prefer to use ntp instead of systemd-timesyncd it is not unnecessary.

Can't the systemd configuration be changed without having to purge
ntp (e.g. to be able to switch between them easily)?

IMHO, it is bad to be forced to uninstall a package just to make
some other package work.

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Re: What package contains the time daemon?

I wrote:
 http://www.ntp.org/ntpfaq/NTP-s-config-adv.htm
 
 See section 6.6.2, Authentication

Vincent Lefevre writes:
 I don't see how this can work with public NTP servers!

If you need authentication you need to use trusted servers.

http://www.nist.gov/pml/div688/grp40/auth-ntp.cfm
http://www.nist.gov/pml/div688/grp40/upload/-Instructions-for-using-the-NIST-authenticated-Network-Time-Protocol-NTP-server.pdf
http://support.ntp.org/bin/view/Servers/WebHome

Look through the list for servers that say that they support
authentication and follow instructions.

 Even without it, though, sucessfully spoofing all four of the servers
 you use would be challenging.

 I don't see why this would be difficult for someone who controls the
 local network (e.g. the wifi hotspot).

If your laptop needs precise time and you are a target for such attacks
take the time daemon offline when use such unreliable connections.

The attacker would not be able to change your clock very fast, though.
Unless your laptop needs millisecond accuracy for some reason it's hard
to see what such an attack would accomplish.
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Elmwood, WI USA


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Re: What package contains the time daemon?

Vincent Lefevre writes:
 I want to be able to set the time if for some reason the clock is
 completely incorrect (this occurred from time to time in the past).

Use your wristwatch.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA


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Re: What package contains the time daemon? (approx vs ntp)

2015-07-26 Thread Dennis Wicks


Paul E Condon wrote on 07/26/2015 10:14 AM:

On 20150726_0252-0700, anxious...@gmail.com wrote:




Also years ago, and still today, there is approx which does a much
more sophisticated analysis of the data stream of repeated queries of
an ntp server. In addition to setting the local clock to the
same time as the external reference clock as is done by both ntp and
ntpdate, approx computes an estimate of *rate* of ticking of the local
clock. Properly used, in a stable HVAC environment, it can keep the
local clock synced with internet time with as few as one reading per
week of the external internet time.


On Debian approx is similar to apt-proxy and has nothing to 
do with time or clocks. Where can I get the one you are 
referring to?




It is my experience that internet time is vastly inferior to the
precision of proper laboratory grade atomic clocks of a decade or two
ago. Furthermore, no one really wants his computer clock to be
scientifically correct to the point of being useful for running the
data links to the space probe to Pluto.


What is your definition of internet time? I have always 
understood it to be what you get from stratum one and two 
time servers. If you like the voice version you can listen 
to WWV.


I have between 8 and 12 computers on my local network. When 
something goes wrong just a few seconds difference in clock 
time makes it nearly impossible, alright, extremely 
difficult, to match up log files and figure out what is wrong.



What everyone should want is
just that their computer clock agrees with the computer clocks of the
web sites with which they communicate. THAT is largely determined by
social convention, which cares very little about logical scientific
correctness.


Don't particularly give a * what time some web site 
thinks it is!


Regards,
Dennis


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Re: What package contains the time daemon?

2015-07-26 Thread Gary Dale


On 26/07/15 08:57 AM, Lisi Reisz wrote:

On Sunday 26 July 2015 13:17:02 Renaud  OLGIATI wrote:

On Sun, 26 Jul 2015 10:54:35 +0100

Lisi Reisz lisi.re...@gmail.com wrote:

But that is for wheezy and earlier.  systemd is, of course, different.

Maybe the list should implement a rule, that people asking a question tell
us whether they are running systemd or not.

Given that the advent of systemd has, as a stroke, made all the knowledge
acquired over the years by Linux old-timers obsolete, it would avoid advice
being given, that turns out to be useless to the user.

This latter point may also, in part, explain resistance to the adoption of
systemd, and the rise of systemd-free distributions...

Yes, on my one systemd box, I had a problem with which no-one could help me.

I do not allege that systemd directly caused it, but that the advent of
systemd caused a lot that had worked one way before, to have to work
differently now; that there are still some glitches in this, and that we, as
a group, do not know the answers.  I asked on two lists, fiddled, went spare,
decided that life is too short and reinstalled.  With Jessie again.  It is
lovely, but ...

I am now terrified to upgrade because the problem arose as a result of a
mistake I made during a routine upgrade.  It is a mistake I have made before,
and always been able to get out of before.  If I make it again, I shall
reinstall again much earlier.

I am not upgrading my desktop yet.  Wheezy is long term.  In a year or so
Jessie may have settled down, the bugs may have been ironed out, and we may
all have acquired some expertise.  Or I can wait for Stretch.  I am not
tempted to leave Debian, and am still very grateful for it.  But I do think
that it is a pity that Jessie was released.  It was not, IMHO, release ready.
Yes, it runs beautifully for many people, but it is not stable, however much
it may be Stable.  There are too many problems.  And as Renaud says, not
enough expertise.

Lisi
I haven't had any significant problems with systemd but then I waited 
several months before upgrading my servers to jessie and before 
upgrading my workstation to stretch. Maybe it's because of MS-DO but 
I've learned to wait for the .1 release before upgrading. :)



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Re: What package contains the time daemon?

On 2015-07-26 15:27:50 -0500, John Hasler wrote:
 Vincent Lefevre writes:
  I want to be able to set the time if for some reason the clock is
  completely incorrect (this occurred from time to time in the past).
 
 Use your wristwatch.

This may be too late. The machine doesn't warn when the date is
incorrect. One may screw up various things before noticing.

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Re: What package contains the time daemon?

On 2015-07-26 10:06:05 -0500, John Hasler wrote:
I wrote:
http://www.ntp.org/ntpfaq/NTP-s-config-adv.htm

See section 6.6.2, Authentication

Vincent Lefevre writes:
I don't see how this can work with public NTP servers!

Actually there's another authentication system: Autokey, which is
a public-key authentication:

https://www.eecis.udel.edu/~mills/ntp/html/autokey.html

but... it is broken!

https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=687166#55

If you need authentication you need to use trusted servers.

http://www.nist.gov/pml/div688/grp40/auth-ntp.cfm

First problem: one needs registration. Major problem: Each registered
user will be assigned a unique encryption key, which will be linked to
the IP address of the user’s system. This assumes a fixed IP address!

http://www.nist.gov/pml/div688/grp40/upload/-Instructions-for-using-the-NIST-authenticated-Network-Time-Protocol-NTP-server.pdf
http://support.ntp.org/bin/view/Servers/WebHome

Look through the list for servers that say that they support
authentication and follow instructions.

It seems that the authentication system is Autokey, but see above.

Even without it, though, sucessfully spoofing all four of the servers
you use would be challenging.

I don't see why this would be difficult for someone who controls the
local network (e.g. the wifi hotspot).

If your laptop needs precise time and you are a target for such attacks
take the time daemon offline when use such unreliable connections.

In general, I don't know when the connection is unreliable. Actually
I can assume that most of the time it may be unreliable. So, this is
not a solution.

I also have a desktop machine that is permanently on an unreliable
network (at least with SLAAC attacks several times per year).

The attacker would not be able to change your clock very fast, though.
Unless your laptop needs millisecond accuracy for some reason it's hard
to see what such an attack would accomplish.

I want to be able to set the time if for some reason the clock is
completely incorrect (this occurred from time to time in the past).

So, I probably need to wait for LibreSSL or a new OpenNTPd version...

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Re: What package contains the time daemon?

2015-07-26 Thread Ron

On Sun, 26 Jul 2015 15:27:50 -0500
John Hasler jhas...@newsguy.com wrote:

  I want to be able to set the time if for some reason the clock is
  completely incorrect (this occurred from time to time in the past).  
 
 Use your wristwatch.

Or better, your cellphone or GPS receiver.
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
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   the inscrutable workings of Providence.
-- The Earl of Birkenhead

   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 


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Re: What package contains the time daemon?

On Sunday 26 July 2015 05:09:37 CaT wrote:
 On Sat, Jul 25, 2015 at 11:32:53PM -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
  It is, once ntpdate has slammed the correct time into the system at boot
  time, then ntp takes over.

 Unless I misremember, you don't even need ntpdate. Starting ntp with
 -g will do just fine (and it's the default config - I add -N). I don't
 even have ntpdate installed.

 --
   A search of his car uncovered pornography, a homemade sex aid, women's
   stockings and a Jack Russell terrier.
 -
 http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/wacky/indeed/story-e6frev20-11808
3480

I just:
# aptitude install ntp
after that it just looks after itself.

But that is for wheezy and earlier.  systemd is, of course, different.

Lisi


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Re: What package contains the time daemon?