Re: Wheezy Installer Auto-Partition Oddity
Patrick Bartek bartek...@yahoo.com wrote: I'm beginning to believe--I have no definitive proof, as yet--that the gaps are a simplistic partition alignment solution to maintain optimum hard drive performance for all hard drive(s) configurations, all RAIDs, all filesystems, etc. I wouldn't mind hearing the answer if you (or anyone else here) get a definitive answer. Cheers, Chris -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/89tvr9xc6k@news.roaima.co.uk
Re: Wheezy Installer Auto-Partition Oddity
- Original Message - From: Chris Davies chris-use...@roaima.co.uk To: debian-user@lists.debian.org Cc: Sent: Wednesday, January 9, 2013 2:27 AM Subject: Re: Wheezy Installer Auto-Partition Oddity Patrick Bartek bartek...@yahoo.com wrote: I'm beginning to believe--I have no definitive proof, as yet--that the gaps are a simplistic partition alignment solution to maintain optimum hard drive performance for all hard drive(s) configurations, all RAIDs, all filesystems, etc. I wouldn't mind hearing the answer if you (or anyone else here) get a definitive answer. If I do, I'll post it here along with citations. Right now, all my searches are just finding other people asking the same thing as I have. B -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1357749889.39954.yahoomail...@web142304.mail.bf1.yahoo.com
Re: Wheezy Installer Auto-Partition Oddity
On Mon, Jan 07, 2013 at 10:10:30PM -0800, Patrick Bartek wrote: I understand the need to align partitions particularly when dealing with RAIDed drives. It's just that I thought partitioning utilities for some years now have automatically aligned partitions. However, I've never noticed 1MiB gaps until recently. Of course, I have always manually partitioned in cylinders. At any rate, let the tool add the space; it even will calculated the correct size and sector alignment for you. It may be untidy, but it does no harm. It's not that a megabyte here or there is lost. It's the not knowing why that's bothersome. Have you thought about talking to the debian-boot people (mailto:debian-b...@lists.debian.org, irc://irc.debian.org/debian-boot)? The poeple on Debian-Boot are more likely to know about the internals of the installer. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Wheezy Installer Auto-Partition Oddity
Mark Allums m...@allums.com wrote: If you are using LVM, you need to leave 1MB before and after the partition for metadata. Some of the tools do this automatically for you. If you don't like it, you can manually adjust the start and end yourself. I use LVM and I'm pretty sure there are no such gaps on my disks. Chris -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/e3itr9xs9i@news.roaima.co.uk
Re: Wheezy Installer Auto-Partition Oddity
- Original Message - From: Darac Marjal mailingl...@darac.org.uk To: debian-user@lists.debian.org Cc: Sent: Tuesday, January 8, 2013 1:21 AM Subject: Re: Wheezy Installer Auto-Partition Oddity On Mon, Jan 07, 2013 at 10:10:30PM -0800, Patrick Bartek wrote: I understand the need to align partitions particularly when dealing with RAIDed drives. It's just that I thought partitioning utilities for some years now have automatically aligned partitions. However, I've never noticed 1MiB gaps until recently. Of course, I have always manually partitioned in cylinders. At any rate, let the tool add the space; it even will calculated the correct size and sector alignment for you. It may be untidy, but it does no harm. It's not that a megabyte here or there is lost. It's the not knowing why that's bothersome. Have you thought about talking to the debian-boot people (mailto:debian-b...@lists.debian.org, irc://irc.debian.org/debian-boot)? The poeple on Debian-Boot are more likely to know about the internals of the installer. No, I hadn't. Thanks. However, I have noted in my searches that non-Debian users are experiencing the gapping as well. And they are equally at a loss to explain it as here on this list. So, it's not specifically a Debian quirk. B -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1357667015.25650.yahoomail...@web142302.mail.bf1.yahoo.com
Re: Wheezy Installer Auto-Partition Oddity
- Original Message - From: Chris Davies chris-use...@roaima.co.uk To: debian-user@lists.debian.org Cc: Sent: Tuesday, January 8, 2013 5:04 AM Subject: Re: Wheezy Installer Auto-Partition Oddity Mark Allums m...@allums.com wrote: If you are using LVM, you need to leave 1MB before and after the partition for metadata. Some of the tools do this automatically for you. If you don't like it, you can manually adjust the start and end yourself. I use LVM and I'm pretty sure there are no such gaps on my disks. I'm beginning to believe--I have no definitive proof, as yet--that the gaps are a simplistic partition alignment solution to maintain optimum hard drive performance for all hard drive(s) configurations, all RAIDs, all filesystems, etc. B -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1357667435.24538.yahoomail...@web142305.mail.bf1.yahoo.com
Re: Wheezy Installer Auto-Partition Oddity
- Original Message - From: Mark Allums m...@allums.com To: 'Debian User' debian-user@lists.debian.org Cc: Sent: Sunday, January 6, 2013 1:26 PM Subject: RE: Wheezy Installer Auto-Partition Oddity [snip] So, again I ask: Why that 1MiB unpartitioned space before the beginning of a new partition? Both Debian 6 and 7 installer partitioner insert it (when you choose Auto-partition; don't know whether it does with Custom) as does gparted (Discovered that when I resized three existing contiguious primary partitions [no gaps added after resizing] and added two new logical partitions [gaps added automatically] on a 7 year old 512 byte sector 160GB drive). Got to be a reason. I don't think it's a bug. You are correct, there is a reason. Previously, I said that LVM needs it. I read something that explained it, but I may have misremembered what I read. Perhaps it had something to do with RAID, perhaps it was something else. I remember several different web sites telling me to leave space, although I seem to recall that they were Ubuntu-related. I haven't been able to find anything other than my vague recollection of it being mentioned as to why LVM needs the unpartitioned gaps, if it needs it. LVM has worked without them for years. I've been told that LVM doesn't write anything to those gaps. So, that can't be the reason to have them. Maybe, it's a GPT thing even if you're not using one? Or a safeguard against overlapping huge partitions? However, there is also a performance gain to be had when aligning partitions to 1MB boundaries. This is true for both 512- and 4096-byte sectors. Of course, since both 512 bytes and 4096 bytes divides evenly into 1MB, adding at least 1MB before and after the partition kills two birds with one stone. This I read on the GParted forums. I understand the need to align partitions particularly when dealing with RAIDed drives. It's just that I thought partitioning utilities for some years now have automatically aligned partitions. However, I've never noticed 1MiB gaps until recently. Of course, I have always manually partitioned in cylinders. At any rate, let the tool add the space; it even will calculated the correct size and sector alignment for you. It may be untidy, but it does no harm. It's not that a megabyte here or there is lost. It's the not knowing why that's bothersome. B -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1357625430.76285.yahoomail...@web142305.mail.bf1.yahoo.com
RE: Wheezy Installer Auto-Partition Oddity
From: Patrick Bartek [mailto:bartek...@yahoo.com] From: Tom H tomh0...@gmail.com On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 1:25 PM, Patrick Bartek bartek...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Roger Leigh rle...@codelibre.net LVM does not use unpartitioned space for anything TTBOMK. It uses physical volumes (PVs) which are block devices (either partitions or whole disks or RAID arrays etc.). These are entirely self-contained. Internally, the PV contains its own metadata and extents which are allocated to individual logical volumes within the volume group containing the PV. It's simply impractical and fragile to use unpartitioned space, and LVM only uses the devices (partitions) you put the PVs on. That was what I read--somewhere?--in an article on LVM. It was just one sentence mentioned in passing and was never detailed. If using unpartitioned space is so fragile Why do the MBR or GPT, etc. use it? Seems to be a great place to hide data about something like a LVM partition that's not going to change frequently, and is beyond normal filesystem access. Just a thought. The MBR, whether on msdos or gpt, is a well-defined area at the beginning of a disk, not a random space between partitions. There's no LVM data held off a PV, whether it's a partition or a disk. The LVM metadata of a PV is stored in the second sector of that PV and its LV usable area follows. Your article might have been referring to this separation. As I said in a previous reply, I could have misinterpreted. I was skimming the article, not studying. So, again I ask: Why that 1MiB unpartitioned space before the beginning of a new partition? Both Debian 6 and 7 installer partitioner insert it (when you choose Auto-partition; don't know whether it does with Custom) as does gparted (Discovered that when I resized three existing contiguious primary partitions [no gaps added after resizing] and added two new logical partitions [gaps added automatically] on a 7 year old 512 byte sector 160GB drive). Got to be a reason. I don't think it's a bug. You are correct, there is a reason. Previously, I said that LVM needs it. I read something that explained it, but I may have misremembered what I read. Perhaps it had something to do with RAID, perhaps it was something else. I remember several different web sites telling me to leave space, although I seem to recall that they were Ubuntu-related. However, there is also a performance gain to be had when aligning partitions to 1MB boundaries. This is true for both 512- and 4096-byte sectors. Of course, since both 512 bytes and 4096 bytes divides evenly into 1MB, adding at least 1MB before and after the partition kills two birds with one stone. This I read on the GParted forums. At any rate, let the tool add the space; it even will calculated the correct size and sector alignment for you. It may be untidy, but it does no harm. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/001c01cdec54$894dd5c0$9be98140$@allums.com
Re: Wheezy Installer Auto-Partition Oddity
On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 1:25 PM, Patrick Bartek bartek...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Roger Leigh rle...@codelibre.net Sent: Friday, January 4, 2013 3:02 AM LVM does not use unpartitioned space for anything TTBOMK. It uses physical volumes (PVs) which are block devices (either partitions or whole disks or RAID arrays etc.). These are entirely self-contained. Internally, the PV contains its own metadata and extents which are allocated to individual logical volumes within the volume group containing the PV. It's simply impractical and fragile to use unpartitioned space, and LVM only uses the devices (partitions) you put the PVs on. That was what I read--somewhere?--in an article on LVM. It was just one sentence mentioned in passing and was never detailed. If using unpartitioned space is so fragile Why do the MBR or GPT, etc. use it? Seems to be a great place to hide data about something like a LVM partition that's not going to change frequently, and is beyond normal filesystem access. Just a thought. The MBR, whether on msdos or gpt, is a well-defined area at the beginning of a disk, not a random space between partitions. There's no LVM data held off a PV, whether it's a partition or a disk. The LVM metadata of a PV is stored in the second sector of that PV and its LV usable area follows. Your article might have been referring to this separation. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAOdo=Sy-EAAymhbziJSYi9EWpyKsmfSJao7nkK_qc2jFmwN2=a...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Wheezy Installer Auto-Partition Oddity
- Original Message - From: Tom H tomh0...@gmail.com To: Debian User debian-user@lists.debian.org Cc: Sent: Saturday, January 5, 2013 4:32 AM Subject: Re: Wheezy Installer Auto-Partition Oddity On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 1:25 PM, Patrick Bartek bartek...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Roger Leigh rle...@codelibre.net Sent: Friday, January 4, 2013 3:02 AM LVM does not use unpartitioned space for anything TTBOMK. It uses physical volumes (PVs) which are block devices (either partitions or whole disks or RAID arrays etc.). These are entirely self-contained. Internally, the PV contains its own metadata and extents which are allocated to individual logical volumes within the volume group containing the PV. It's simply impractical and fragile to use unpartitioned space, and LVM only uses the devices (partitions) you put the PVs on. That was what I read--somewhere?--in an article on LVM. It was just one sentence mentioned in passing and was never detailed. If using unpartitioned space is so fragile Why do the MBR or GPT, etc. use it? Seems to be a great place to hide data about something like a LVM partition that's not going to change frequently, and is beyond normal filesystem access. Just a thought. The MBR, whether on msdos or gpt, is a well-defined area at the beginning of a disk, not a random space between partitions. There's no LVM data held off a PV, whether it's a partition or a disk. The LVM metadata of a PV is stored in the second sector of that PV and its LV usable area follows. Your article might have been referring to this separation. As I said in a previous reply, I could have misinterpreted. I was skimming the article, not studying. So, again I ask: Why that 1MiB unpartitioned space before the beginning of a new partition? Both Debian 6 and 7 installer partitioner insert it (when you choose Auto-partition; don't know whether it does with Custom) as does gparted (Discovered that when I resized three existing contiguious primary partitions [no gaps added after resizing] and added two new logical partitions [gaps added automatically] on a 7 year old 512 byte sector 160GB drive). Got to be a reason. I don't think it's a bug. B -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1357408852.85818.yahoomail...@web142301.mail.bf1.yahoo.com
Re: Wheezy Installer Auto-Partition Oddity
On Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 1:00 PM, Patrick Bartek bartek...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Tom H tomh0...@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, January 5, 2013 4:32 AM On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 1:25 PM, Patrick Bartek bartek...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Roger Leigh rle...@codelibre.net Sent: Friday, January 4, 2013 3:02 AM LVM does not use unpartitioned space for anything TTBOMK. It uses physical volumes (PVs) which are block devices (either partitions or whole disks or RAID arrays etc.). These are entirely self-contained. Internally, the PV contains its own metadata and extents which are allocated to individual logical volumes within the volume group containing the PV. It's simply impractical and fragile to use unpartitioned space, and LVM only uses the devices (partitions) you put the PVs on. That was what I read--somewhere?--in an article on LVM. It was just one sentence mentioned in passing and was never detailed. If using unpartitioned space is so fragile Why do the MBR or GPT, etc. use it? Seems to be a great place to hide data about something like a LVM partition that's not going to change frequently, and is beyond normal filesystem access. Just a thought. The MBR, whether on msdos or gpt, is a well-defined area at the beginning of a disk, not a random space between partitions. There's no LVM data held off a PV, whether it's a partition or a disk. The LVM metadata of a PV is stored in the second sector of that PV and its LV usable area follows. Your article might have been referring to this separation. So, again I ask: Why that 1MiB unpartitioned space before the beginning of a new partition? Both Debian 6 and 7 installer partitioner insert it (when you choose Auto-partition; don't know whether it does with Custom) as does gparted (Discovered that when I resized three existing contiguious primary partitions [no gaps added after resizing] and added two new logical partitions [gaps added automatically] on a 7 year old 512 byte sector 160GB drive). Got to be a reason. I don't think it's a bug. I'm sorry, I only remember some things vaguely that's why I didn't reply to your initial query but here goes. fdisk upstream chose a 1MiB offset by default 2-3 years ago either for compatibility with Windows or for compatibility with 4KiB-sector disks (or both). For the latter, AFAIK, an offset of any multiple of 4KiB would be good enough so I might be misremembering (on both counts!)... As for the gaps between the partitions, *MAYBE* it's because the installer passes a size (e.g. 200M) to the partitioner and, if that size doesn't end at a 4KiB-multiple boundary, the next partition starts at one. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAOdo=Sz3AsOhZYGgMJh6wfG=9F2KJtFJjWf=d=ophep8+bj...@mail.gmail.com
RE: Wheezy Installer Auto-Partition Oddity
Hi, Patrick, [snip] FWIW, the wheezy installer created the same partitioning scheme on a hard drive install the first time I gave wheezy a run. I found that rather odd and a good reason to manually partition the drive prior to installing wheezy in the future. I usually do that but was being a bit lazy this one time. ;) Thanks. Now, I know it's not just my install or a quirk in VirtualBox. It's the installer. Since my original post, I've been reading up on GPT. Based on that, plus what others have posted here, it seems the cause of the gaps is a combination of aligning partitions based 4096 byte sectors, regardless of whether they are that size, and LVM needing unpartitioned space between partitions for metadata whether you're using LVM or not. Mostly, the latter, I think. Like you, for the real install, I'll just manually partition. Gap, LVM and GPT problems solved. Just for the record . . . that install was to an old WD 80gb drive that was around long before the new sector changes. Mine, too. WD 160GB purchased late 2006. 512 byte sectors. I don't think the installer looks at the disk type. It will just use 1M boundaries for starting a new partition. Why it ends the previous partition just beyond that 1M boundary and then has to skip 2047 512b sectors I do not know, that might be a minor bug. And ah who the heck cares about 1M on a 100+ GB or nowadays on a 1+ TB disk? ;-) Bonno Bloksma -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/89d1798a7351d040b4e74e0a043c69d71cbe3...@hglexch-01.tio.nl
Re: Wheezy Installer Auto-Partition Oddity
On Thu, Jan 03, 2013 at 10:15:09AM -0800, Patrick Bartek wrote: Thanks. Now, I know it's not just my install or a quirk in VirtualBox. It's the installer. Since my original post, I've been reading up on GPT. Based on that, plus what others have posted here, it seems the cause of the gaps is a combination of aligning partitions based 4096 byte sectors, regardless of whether they are that size, and LVM needing unpartitioned space between partitions for metadata whether you're using LVM or not. Mostly, the latter, I think. I'm not sure where you're getting the impression that LVM puts data outside the partition boundary, because that just seems wrong to me. For one, LVM can work with a whole disk (pvcreate /dev/sda). It's a little hard to store metadata on areas of disk that don't exist. Secondly, the whole point of partitions is to say this part of the disk is what you can use. Putting data outside of a partition is terribly brittle and you tend to get horrible breakage when you do it. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Wheezy Installer Auto-Partition Oddity
On Thu, Jan 03, 2013 at 10:15:09AM -0800, Patrick Bartek wrote: Since my original post, I've been reading up on GPT. Based on that, plus what others have posted here, it seems the cause of the gaps is a combination of aligning partitions based 4096 byte sectors, regardless of whether they are that size, and LVM needing unpartitioned space between partitions for metadata whether you're using LVM or not. Mostly, the latter, I think. LVM does not use unpartitioned space for anything TTBOMK. It uses physical volumes (PVs) which are block devices (either partitions or whole disks or RAID arrays etc.). These are entirely self-contained. Internally, the PV contains its own metadata and extents which are allocated to individual logical volumes within the volume group containing the PV. It's simply impractical and fragile to use unpartitioned space, and LVM only uses the devices (partitions) you put the PVs on. Regards, Roger -- .''`. Roger Leigh : :' : Debian GNU/Linuxhttp://people.debian.org/~rleigh/ `. `' schroot and sbuild http://alioth.debian.org/projects/buildd-tools `-GPG Public Key F33D 281D 470A B443 6756 147C 07B3 C8BC 4083 E800 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130104110236.gz3...@codelibre.net
RE: Wheezy Installer Auto-Partition Oddity
--- On Fri, 1/4/13, Bonno Bloksma b.blok...@tio.nl wrote: From: Bonno Bloksma b.blok...@tio.nl Subject: RE: Wheezy Installer Auto-Partition Oddity To: debian-user@lists.debian.org debian-user@lists.debian.org Date: Friday, January 4, 2013, 3:40 AM Hi, Patrick, [snip] FWIW, the wheezy installer created the same partitioning scheme on a hard drive install the first time I gave wheezy a run. I found that rather odd and a good reason to manually partition the drive prior to installing wheezy in the future. I usually do that but was being a bit lazy this one time. ;) Thanks. Now, I know it's not just my install or a quirk in VirtualBox. It's the installer. Since my original post, I've been reading up on GPT. Based on that, plus what others have posted here, it seems the cause of the gaps is a combination of aligning partitions based 4096 byte sectors, regardless of whether they are that size, and LVM needing unpartitioned space between partitions for metadata whether you're using LVM or not. Mostly, the latter, I think. Like you, for the real install, I'll just manually partition. Gap, LVM and GPT problems solved. Just for the record . . . that install was to an old WD 80gb drive that was around long before the new sector changes. Mine, too. WD 160GB purchased late 2006. 512 byte sectors. I don't think the installer looks at the disk type. It will just use 1M boundaries for starting a new partition. Why it ends the previous partition just beyond that 1M boundary and then has to skip 2047 512b sectors I do not know, that might be a minor bug. And ah who the heck cares about 1M on a 100+ GB or nowadays on a 1+ TB disk? ;-) In the grand scheme of things it might be insignificant but it is very untidy (and annoying) to see those unallocated bits here and there. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1357314946.69740.yahoomailclas...@web163401.mail.gq1.yahoo.com
Re: Wheezy Installer Auto-Partition Oddity
- Original Message - From: Bonno Bloksma b.blok...@tio.nl To: debian-user@lists.debian.org debian-user@lists.debian.org Cc: Sent: Friday, January 4, 2013 1:40 AM Subject: RE: Wheezy Installer Auto-Partition Oddity [snip] Just for the record . . . that install was to an old WD 80gb drive that was around long before the new sector changes. Mine, too. WD 160GB purchased late 2006. 512 byte sectors. I don't think the installer looks at the disk type. It will just use 1M boundaries for starting a new partition. Maybe, but I think it's something more than that. Has to be a rational reason, assuming it's not a bug. Why it ends the previous partition just beyond that 1M boundary and then has to skip 2047 512b sectors I do not know, that might be a minor bug. Well, the installer partitioner on Debian 6 does exactly the same thing. And, D6 is what? almost 3 years old. Surely, if it were a bug, it would have been fixed by now. This type of partitioning is planned for whatever reason. And ah who the heck cares about 1M on a 100+ GB or nowadays on a 1+ TB disk? ;-) Don't really. Just wanted to know why. In fact, a few weeks ago I used the gparted LiveCD to resize some of the partitions on the drive this system runs on to install Wheezy on, and gparted put in gaps between the two new logical partitions I added even though this hard drive is MBR based. Got to be a reason for it. B -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1357322584.43719.yahoomail...@web142305.mail.bf1.yahoo.com
Re: Wheezy Installer Auto-Partition Oddity
- Original Message - From: Roger Leigh rle...@codelibre.net To: debian-user@lists.debian.org Cc: Sent: Friday, January 4, 2013 3:02 AM Subject: Re: Wheezy Installer Auto-Partition Oddity On Thu, Jan 03, 2013 at 10:15:09AM -0800, Patrick Bartek wrote: Since my original post, I've been reading up on GPT. Based on that, plus what others have posted here, it seems the cause of the gaps is a combination of aligning partitions based 4096 byte sectors, regardless of whether they are that size, and LVM needing unpartitioned space between partitions for metadata whether you're using LVM or not. Mostly, the latter, I think. LVM does not use unpartitioned space for anything TTBOMK. It uses physical volumes (PVs) which are block devices (either partitions or whole disks or RAID arrays etc.). These are entirely self-contained. Internally, the PV contains its own metadata and extents which are allocated to individual logical volumes within the volume group containing the PV. It's simply impractical and fragile to use unpartitioned space, and LVM only uses the devices (partitions) you put the PVs on. That was what I read--somewhere?--in an article on LVM. It was just one sentence mentioned in passing and was never detailed. If using unpartitioned space is so fragile Why do the MBR or GPT, etc. use it? Seems to be a great place to hide data about something like a LVM partition that's not going to change frequently, and is beyond normal filesystem access. Just a thought. B -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1357323954.70281.yahoomail...@web142305.mail.bf1.yahoo.com
RE: Wheezy Installer Auto-Partition Oddity
From: Bonno Bloksma [mailto:b.blok...@tio.nl] To: Patrick Bartek; debian-user@lists.debian.org Hi Patrick, In preparation of a clean install of Wheezy, I did a test install in VirtualBox 3.1.8 running under Fedora 12 64-bit. To save time, I used the installer's default partitioning scheme. Normally I custom partition. Anyway, I noticed an oddity: There are gaps between the partitions. Sizable ones. Plus, sda1 starts at 2048, not 1. I don't know if this is due to the installer partitioner or a quirk in VirtualBox. I noticed this on a VB install of Debian 6, too, on the same system. Anybody got any ideas on the why? Wasn't able to find anything applicable on net searches. The only reason I can think about is the new requirement for partitioning on 4k boundaries due to new harddrive specs. Harddrives used to be broken up in 512b blocks, they are now chopped up in 4k blocks. I read a good article the other day explaining the performance hits if the OS does not properly allign the partition boundaries to the new 'Advanced Format' 4k boundaries. Unfortunately that was in a paper magazine so I cannot refer to it here. But have a look at http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/advanced-format-4k-sector-size- hard-drive,2759.html and look in Wikipedia for more info. Bonno Bloksma If you are using LVM, you need to leave 1MB before and after the partition for metadata. Some of the tools do this automatically for you. If you don't like it, you can manually adjust the start and end yourself. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/009f01cde9af$6a645000$3f2cf000$@allums.com
Re: Wheezy Installer Auto-Partition Oddity
- Original Message - From: Go Linux goli...@yahoo.com To: debian-user@lists.debian.org debian-user@lists.debian.org Cc: Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2013 5:42 PM Subject: Re: Wheezy Installer Auto-Partition Oddity --- On Wed, 1/2/13, Patrick Bartek bartek...@yahoo.com wrote: As I said in my original query, this partitioning was done automatically by the Wheezy installer. I would have never partitioned that way myself. Besides this is just a test install to root out any problems for when I do the real one on a real hard drive. FWIW, the wheezy installer created the same partitioning scheme on a hard drive install the first time I gave wheezy a run. I found that rather odd and a good reason to manually partition the drive prior to installing wheezy in the future. I usually do that but was being a bit lazy this one time. ;) Thanks. Now, I know it's not just my install or a quirk in VirtualBox. It's the installer. Since my original post, I've been reading up on GPT. Based on that, plus what others have posted here, it seems the cause of the gaps is a combination of aligning partitions based 4096 byte sectors, regardless of whether they are that size, and LVM needing unpartitioned space between partitions for metadata whether you're using LVM or not. Mostly, the latter, I think. Like you, for the real install, I'll just manually partition. Gap, LVM and GPT problems solved. B -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1357236909.39129.yahoomail...@web142304.mail.bf1.yahoo.com
Re: Wheezy Installer Auto-Partition Oddity
- Original Message - From: Bonno Bloksma b.blok...@tio.nl To: Patrick Bartek bartek...@yahoo.com; debian-user@lists.debian.org debian-user@lists.debian.org Cc: Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2013 11:04 PM Subject: RE: Wheezy Installer Auto-Partition Oddity Hi Patrick, In preparation of a clean install of Wheezy, I did a test install in VirtualBox 3.1.8 running under Fedora 12 64-bit. To save time, I used the installer's default partitioning scheme. Normally I custom partition. Anyway, I noticed an oddity: There are gaps between the partitions. Sizable ones. Plus, sda1 starts at 2048, not 1. I don't know if this is due to the installer partitioner or a quirk in VirtualBox. I noticed this on a VB install of Debian 6, too, on the same system. Anybody got any ideas on the why? Wasn't able to find anything applicable on net searches. The only reason I can think about is the new requirement for partitioning on 4k boundaries due to new harddrive specs. Harddrives used to be broken up in 512b blocks, they are now chopped up in 4k blocks. I read a good article the other day explaining the performance hits if the OS does not properly allign the partition boundaries to the new 'Advanced Format' 4k boundaries. Unfortunately that was in a paper magazine so I cannot refer to it here. But have a look at http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/advanced-format-4k-sector-size-hard-drive,2759.html and look in Wikipedia for more info. I've come across this in my research on my gap problem, too. The 4K sector alignment doesn't apply to me as the hard drive I'm installing Wheezy on has 512 byte sectors as far as I've been able to determine. It was manufactured in 2006 before the switch. I think the main cause of the gaps is the Wheezy installer partitioner assuming' LVM will be used at some time, and is setting up the drive for that future use. Thanks for the link. B -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1357237891.71288.yahoomail...@web142305.mail.bf1.yahoo.com
Re: Wheezy Installer Auto-Partition Oddity
- Original Message - From: Mark Allums m...@allums.com To: 'Bonno Bloksma' b.blok...@tio.nl; 'Patrick Bartek' bartek...@yahoo.com; debian-user@lists.debian.org Cc: Sent: Thursday, January 3, 2013 4:39 AM Subject: RE: Wheezy Installer Auto-Partition Oddity From: Bonno Bloksma [mailto:b.blok...@tio.nl] To: Patrick Bartek; debian-user@lists.debian.org Hi Patrick, In preparation of a clean install of Wheezy, I did a test install in VirtualBox 3.1.8 running under Fedora 12 64-bit. To save time, I used the installer's default partitioning scheme. Normally I custom partition. Anyway, I noticed an oddity: There are gaps between the partitions. Sizable ones. Plus, sda1 starts at 2048, not 1. I don't know if this is due to the installer partitioner or a quirk in VirtualBox. I noticed this on a VB install of Debian 6, too, on the same system. Anybody got any ideas on the why? Wasn't able to find anything applicable on net searches. The only reason I can think about is the new requirement for partitioning on 4k boundaries due to new harddrive specs. Harddrives used to be broken up in 512b blocks, they are now chopped up in 4k blocks. I read a good article the other day explaining the performance hits if the OS does not properly allign the partition boundaries to the new 'Advanced Format' 4k boundaries. Unfortunately that was in a paper magazine so I cannot refer to it here. But have a look at http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/advanced-format-4k-sector-size- hard-drive,2759.html and look in Wikipedia for more info. Bonno Bloksma If you are using LVM, you need to leave 1MB before and after the partition for metadata. Some of the tools do this automatically for you. If you don't like it, you can manually adjust the start and end yourself. I'm not, but I think the Wheezy partitioner thinks I may in the future, so, is setting things up for that possible future need. B -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1357238073.79697.yahoomail...@web142305.mail.bf1.yahoo.com
Re: Wheezy Installer Auto-Partition Oddity
--- On Thu, 1/3/13, Patrick Bartek bartek...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Patrick Bartek bartek...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: Wheezy Installer Auto-Partition Oddity To: debian-user@lists.debian.org debian-user@lists.debian.org Date: Thursday, January 3, 2013, 12:15 PM - Original Message - From: Go Linux goli...@yahoo.com To: debian-user@lists.debian.org debian-user@lists.debian.org Cc: Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2013 5:42 PM Subject: Re: Wheezy Installer Auto-Partition Oddity --- On Wed, 1/2/13, Patrick Bartek bartek...@yahoo.com wrote: As I said in my original query, this partitioning was done automatically by the Wheezy installer. I would have never partitioned that way myself. Besides this is just a test install to root out any problems for when I do the real one on a real hard drive. FWIW, the wheezy installer created the same partitioning scheme on a hard drive install the first time I gave wheezy a run. I found that rather odd and a good reason to manually partition the drive prior to installing wheezy in the future. I usually do that but was being a bit lazy this one time. ;) Thanks. Now, I know it's not just my install or a quirk in VirtualBox. It's the installer. Since my original post, I've been reading up on GPT. Based on that, plus what others have posted here, it seems the cause of the gaps is a combination of aligning partitions based 4096 byte sectors, regardless of whether they are that size, and LVM needing unpartitioned space between partitions for metadata whether you're using LVM or not. Mostly, the latter, I think. Like you, for the real install, I'll just manually partition. Gap, LVM and GPT problems solved. B Just for the record . . . that install was to an old WD 80gb drive that was around long before the new sector changes. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1357250263.87100.yahoomailclas...@web163402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com
Re: Wheezy Installer Auto-Partition Oddity
- Original Message - From: Go Linux goli...@yahoo.com To: debian-user@lists.debian.org debian-user@lists.debian.org; Patrick Bartek bartek...@yahoo.com Cc: Sent: Thursday, January 3, 2013 1:57 PM Subject: Re: Wheezy Installer Auto-Partition Oddity [snip] FWIW, the wheezy installer created the same partitioning scheme on a hard drive install the first time I gave wheezy a run. I found that rather odd and a good reason to manually partition the drive prior to installing wheezy in the future. I usually do that but was being a bit lazy this one time. ;) Thanks. Now, I know it's not just my install or a quirk in VirtualBox. It's the installer. Since my original post, I've been reading up on GPT. Based on that, plus what others have posted here, it seems the cause of the gaps is a combination of aligning partitions based 4096 byte sectors, regardless of whether they are that size, and LVM needing unpartitioned space between partitions for metadata whether you're using LVM or not. Mostly, the latter, I think. Like you, for the real install, I'll just manually partition. Gap, LVM and GPT problems solved. B Just for the record . . . that install was to an old WD 80gb drive that was around long before the new sector changes. Mine, too. WD 160GB purchased late 2006. 512 byte sectors. B -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1357282703.5360.yahoomail...@web142305.mail.bf1.yahoo.com
Wheezy Installer Auto-Partition Oddity
In preparation of a clean install of Wheezy, I did a test install in VirtualBox 3.1.8 running under Fedora 12 64-bit. To save time, I used the installer's default partitioning scheme. Normally I custom partition. Anyway, I noticed an oddity: There are gaps between the partitions. Sizable ones. Plus, sda1 starts at 2048, not 1. I don't know if this is due to the installer partitioner or a quirk in VirtualBox. I noticed this on a VB install of Debian 6, too, on the same system. Anybody got any ideas on the why? Wasn't able to find anything applicable on net searches. Here's the output for fdisk -l on the Wheezy virtual hard drive. Disk /dev/sda: 8589 MB, 8589934592 bytes 255 heads, 63 sectors/track, 1044 cylinders, total 16777216 sectors Units = sectors of 1 * 512 = 512 bytes Sector size (logical/physical): 512 bytes / 512 bytes I/O size (minimum/optimal): 512 bytes / 512 bytes Disk identifier: 0x000d6c53 Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System /dev/sda1 * 2048 15988735 7993344 83 Linux /dev/sda2 15990782 16775167 392193 5 Extended /dev/sda5 15990784 16775167 392192 82 Linux swap / Solaris Thanks. B -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1357161957.85490.yahoomail...@web142306.mail.bf1.yahoo.com
Re: Wheezy Installer Auto-Partition Oddity
On 02/01/13 04:25 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote: In preparation of a clean install of Wheezy, I did a test install in VirtualBox 3.1.8 running under Fedora 12 64-bit. To save time, I used the installer's default partitioning scheme. Normally I custom partition. Anyway, I noticed an oddity: There are gaps between the partitions. Sizable ones. Plus, sda1 starts at 2048, not 1. I don't know if this is due to the installer partitioner or a quirk in VirtualBox. I noticed this on a VB install of Debian 6, too, on the same system. Anybody got any ideas on the why? Wasn't able to find anything applicable on net searches. Here's the output for fdisk -l on the Wheezy virtual hard drive. Disk /dev/sda: 8589 MB, 8589934592 bytes 255 heads, 63 sectors/track, 1044 cylinders, total 16777216 sectors Units = sectors of 1 * 512 = 512 bytes Sector size (logical/physical): 512 bytes / 512 bytes I/O size (minimum/optimal): 512 bytes / 512 bytes Disk identifier: 0x000d6c53 Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System /dev/sda1 *204815988735 7993344 83 Linux /dev/sda21599078216775167 3921935 Extended /dev/sda51599078416775167 392192 82 Linux swap / Solaris Thanks. B Using GPT, the first partition starts at 2048. Get used to it. Seriously, this is how disks are partitioned these days. You have an extended partition for swap space. I'd remove it and make the swap partition a primary partition if you really want a swap partition. No need for two partition tables on a disk with only two real partitions. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50e4ac24.6010...@rogers.com
Re: Wheezy Installer Auto-Partition Oddity
- Original Message - From: Gary Dale garyd...@rogers.com To: debian-user@lists.debian.org Cc: debian-user@lists.debian.org debian-user@lists.debian.org Sent: Wednesday, January 2, 2013 1:52 PM Subject: Re: Wheezy Installer Auto-Partition Oddity On 02/01/13 04:25 PM, Patrick Bartek wrote: In preparation of a clean install of Wheezy, I did a test install in VirtualBox 3.1.8 running under Fedora 12 64-bit. To save time, I used the installer's default partitioning scheme. Normally I custom partition. Anyway, I noticed an oddity: There are gaps between the partitions. Sizable ones. Plus, sda1 starts at 2048, not 1. I don't know if this is due to the installer partitioner or a quirk in VirtualBox. I noticed this on a VB install of Debian 6, too, on the same system. Anybody got any ideas on the why? Wasn't able to find anything applicable on net searches. Here's the output for fdisk -l on the Wheezy virtual hard drive. Disk /dev/sda: 8589 MB, 8589934592 bytes 255 heads, 63 sectors/track, 1044 cylinders, total 16777216 sectors Units = sectors of 1 * 512 = 512 bytes Sector size (logical/physical): 512 bytes / 512 bytes I/O size (minimum/optimal): 512 bytes / 512 bytes Disk identifier: 0x000d6c53 Device Boot Start End Blocks Id System /dev/sda1 * 2048 15988735 7993344 83 Linux /dev/sda2 15990782 16775167 392193 5 Extended /dev/sda5 15990784 16775167 392192 82 Linux swap / Solaris Thanks. B Using GPT, the first partition starts at 2048. Get used to it. Seriously, this is how disks are partitioned these days. That answers the second queston. Not really up on GPT. But from what little I know, I won't need it for the real installation of Wheezy. Also, just realized that the partition info above is in sectors by default and not cylinders by default as I'm accustomed to seeing. That changes things a little. ;-) You have an extended partition for swap space. I'd remove it and make the swap partition a primary partition if you really want a swap partition. No need for two partition tables on a disk with only two real partitions. As I said in my original query, this partitioning was done automatically by the Wheezy installer. I would have never partitioned that way myself. Besides this is just a test install to root out any problems for when I do the real one on a real hard drive. Still don't know why there are gaps between the partitions. B -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1357175154.96173.yahoomail...@web142305.mail.bf1.yahoo.com
Re: Wheezy Installer Auto-Partition Oddity
--- On Wed, 1/2/13, Patrick Bartek bartek...@yahoo.com wrote: As I said in my original query, this partitioning was done automatically by the Wheezy installer. I would have never partitioned that way myself. Besides this is just a test install to root out any problems for when I do the real one on a real hard drive. FWIW, the wheezy installer created the same partitioning scheme on a hard drive install the first time I gave wheezy a run. I found that rather odd and a good reason to manually partition the drive prior to installing wheezy in the future. I usually do that but was being a bit lazy this one time. ;) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1357177332.37186.yahoomailclas...@web163406.mail.gq1.yahoo.com
RE: Wheezy Installer Auto-Partition Oddity
Hi Patrick, In preparation of a clean install of Wheezy, I did a test install in VirtualBox 3.1.8 running under Fedora 12 64-bit. To save time, I used the installer's default partitioning scheme. Normally I custom partition. Anyway, I noticed an oddity: There are gaps between the partitions. Sizable ones. Plus, sda1 starts at 2048, not 1. I don't know if this is due to the installer partitioner or a quirk in VirtualBox. I noticed this on a VB install of Debian 6, too, on the same system. Anybody got any ideas on the why? Wasn't able to find anything applicable on net searches. The only reason I can think about is the new requirement for partitioning on 4k boundaries due to new harddrive specs. Harddrives used to be broken up in 512b blocks, they are now chopped up in 4k blocks. I read a good article the other day explaining the performance hits if the OS does not properly allign the partition boundaries to the new 'Advanced Format' 4k boundaries. Unfortunately that was in a paper magazine so I cannot refer to it here. But have a look at http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/advanced-format-4k-sector-size-hard-drive,2759.html and look in Wikipedia for more info. Bonno Bloksma -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/89d1798a7351d040b4e74e0a043c69d71cbe1...@hglexch-01.tio.nl
