Re: BSD handbook - was Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
On Sat, 2009-05-16 at 01:41 +0800, Bret Busby wrote: However, on the web page at http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq4.html#Multibooting , under the heading 4.8 - Multibooting OpenBSD/i386 is Only one of the four primary MBR partitions can be used for booting OpenBSD (i.e., extended partitions will not work). Whilst it would be a 64 bit version that would be intended to be installed, to be able to use the full 4GB of RAM, I am concerned at the reference to the four primary MBR partitions. Does this mean that only four OS's can be installed, for multiple booting? My understanding is that different OS's have different requirements. So I don't think it is true to say only four OS's can be installed on one disc, but there are some OS's that must be installed on a primary partition (or at least have their boot partitions on a primary partition). Linux OS's can be installed on logical partitions, and at least some versions of MS Windows can also. AFAIK, the BSD's need the boot slice (at least) installed on a primary partition. I'm pretty sure, though, that not all BSD slices need to be on primary partitions. (For one thing, you can spread your installation over two or more hard drives, and I don't remember reading that those additional slices need to be on primary partitions.) Personally, I found it tricky to get my head around the BSD slice concept, not because it's difficult, but just because I was so used to the usual notions of primary, extended, and logical partitions. Slices are a whole other layer you have to incorporate into your thinking. You really have to read the docs and get yourself comfortable with how BSD does things. -- Michael M. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: BSD handbook - was Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
On Sun, 3 May 2009, Neal Hogan wrote: On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 1:19 PM, Bret Busby b...@busby.net wrote: On Sat, 2 May 2009, Neal Hogan wrote: On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 9:30 AM, Douglas A. Tutty dtu...@vianet.ca wrote: On Sat, May 02, 2009 at 06:27:44AM -0500, Neal Hogan wrote: FYI - While many of the fBSD folks will tout there ports/package system, I found it to be a pain (especially the upgrade), as did many others. There has recently been some chatter on their general mailing list to overhaul how they handle packages. Again, I found oBSD's package handling system to be superior. Last I looked (last week), OBSD doesn't have security updates (patches) for their packages; they only provide patches for the base release. ?If you want to run -current, then the packages get security patches. ?Since I'm on dialup, that would mean a lot of bandwidth time; basically, every time firefox or some third-party app required a security fix, I'd have to download the source for _everything_ and recompile _everything_. I don't want to labor this point here, but just one more thing. If you are going to follow current, the recommended way to go about it is to do binary upgrades of the kernel (i.e, snapshots). You don't have to compile src every time. The same goes for packages, binary snapshots of which are updated every few months or so (probably not that often). http://www.openbsd.org/faq/current.html Ah. Maybe it's too complicated for me. I was only ever a user on someone else's (educational instritution's) BSD system, and did not do, or learn, sysadmin on BSD. As a Linux user since around Red Hat 4 or 5, I have never compiled anything in Linux, and have relied on package management, and have had problems with software that involved using.tar.gz files to install, to the extent that I gave up on any package that involved using .tar.gz files to install. So, if BSD is more complicated than using package management like RPM in Red Hat and .deb in Debian/Ubuntu, then it is probably too complicated for me. It's not . . . http://www.openbsd.org/ports.html -- Bret Busby Armadale West Australia .. One more thing, regarding the above; multiple booting. On a (relatively) new laptop, that has 160GB of HDD space, thus leading to the potential for multiple booting (at 20GB per OS, plus about 40GB for data, that is many OS's), I was thinking (as it supposedly comes with both Windows Vista, and Windows XP preinstalled) that it could be possible to have multiple booting with Win Vista, Win XP, Debian Linux, Ubuntu Linux, and one or more BSD's (OpenBSD and FreeBSD, possibly), and thus, six OS's to play with (and learn). However, on the web page at http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq4.html#Multibooting , under the heading 4.8 - Multibooting OpenBSD/i386 is Only one of the four primary MBR partitions can be used for booting OpenBSD (i.e., extended partitions will not work). Whilst it would be a 64 bit version that would be intended to be installed, to be able to use the full 4GB of RAM, I am concerned at the reference to the four primary MBR partitions. Does this mean that only four OS's can be installed, for multiple booting? Whilst this may be digressing, a bit, into BSD stuff, I think that it is still relevant here, as it relates to multiple booting, involving Debian, and, to what extent it can be done, without having to resort to virtual machines like VMWare. Thank you in anticipation. -- Bret Busby Armadale West Australia .. So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the answer means. - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of Book 1 of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: A Trilogy In Four Parts, written by Douglas Adams, published by Pan Books, 1992
Re: BSD handbook - was Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 12:41 PM, Bret Busby b...@busby.net wrote: On Sun, 3 May 2009, Neal Hogan wrote: On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 1:19 PM, Bret Busby b...@busby.net wrote: On Sat, 2 May 2009, Neal Hogan wrote: On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 9:30 AM, Douglas A. Tutty dtu...@vianet.ca wrote: On Sat, May 02, 2009 at 06:27:44AM -0500, Neal Hogan wrote: FYI - While many of the fBSD folks will tout there ports/package system, I found it to be a pain (especially the upgrade), as did many others. There has recently been some chatter on their general mailing list to overhaul how they handle packages. Again, I found oBSD's package handling system to be superior. Last I looked (last week), OBSD doesn't have security updates (patches) for their packages; they only provide patches for the base release. If you want to run -current, then the packages get security patches. Since I'm on dialup, that would mean a lot of bandwidth time; basically, every time firefox or some third-party app required a security fix, I'd have to download the source for _everything_ and recompile _everything_. I don't want to labor this point here, but just one more thing. If you are going to follow current, the recommended way to go about it is to do binary upgrades of the kernel (i.e, snapshots). You don't have to compile src every time. The same goes for packages, binary snapshots of which are updated every few months or so (probably not that often). http://www.openbsd.org/faq/current.html Ah. Maybe it's too complicated for me. I was only ever a user on someone else's (educational instritution's) BSD system, and did not do, or learn, sysadmin on BSD. As a Linux user since around Red Hat 4 or 5, I have never compiled anything in Linux, and have relied on package management, and have had problems with software that involved using.tar.gz files to install, to the extent that I gave up on any package that involved using .tar.gz files to install. So, if BSD is more complicated than using package management like RPM in Red Hat and .deb in Debian/Ubuntu, then it is probably too complicated for me. It's not . . . http://www.openbsd.org/ports.html -- Bret Busby Armadale West Australia .. One more thing, regarding the above; multiple booting. On a (relatively) new laptop, that has 160GB of HDD space, thus leading to the potential for multiple booting (at 20GB per OS, plus about 40GB for data, that is many OS's), I was thinking (as it supposedly comes with both Windows Vista, and Windows XP preinstalled) that it could be possible to have multiple booting with Win Vista, Win XP, Debian Linux, Ubuntu Linux, and one or more BSD's (OpenBSD and FreeBSD, possibly), and thus, six OS's to play with (and learn). However, on the web page at http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq4.html#Multibooting , under the heading 4.8 - Multibooting OpenBSD/i386 is Only one of the four primary MBR partitions can be used for booting OpenBSD (i.e., extended partitions will not work). Whilst it would be a 64 bit version that would be intended to be installed, to be able to use the full 4GB of RAM, I am concerned at the reference to the four primary MBR partitions. Does this mean that only four OS's can be installed, for multiple booting? Whilst this may be digressing, a bit, into BSD stuff, I think that it is still relevant here, as it relates to multiple booting, involving Debian, and, to what extent it can be done, without having to resort to virtual machines like VMWare. Thank you in anticipation. While I don't know the answer to your particular concern, perhaps you should ask it on the oBSD mailing list m...@openbsd.org. It seems like a reasonable question, given that you've done some homework. At the very least, you can check the list's archive (http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-miscr=1w=2) to see if anyone else has brought up a similar issue . . . in fact I suggest you check the archive before posting to the list. Good luck! -- Bret Busby Armadale West Australia .. So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the answer means. - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of Book 1 of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: A Trilogy In Four Parts, written by Douglas Adams, published by Pan Books, 1992 -- www.nealhogan.net www.lambdaserver.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: BSD handbook - was Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 1:19 PM, Bret Busby b...@busby.net wrote: On Sat, 2 May 2009, Neal Hogan wrote: On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 9:30 AM, Douglas A. Tutty dtu...@vianet.ca wrote: On Sat, May 02, 2009 at 06:27:44AM -0500, Neal Hogan wrote: FYI - While many of the fBSD folks will tout there ports/package system, I found it to be a pain (especially the upgrade), as did many others. There has recently been some chatter on their general mailing list to overhaul how they handle packages. Again, I found oBSD's package handling system to be superior. Last I looked (last week), OBSD doesn't have security updates (patches) for their packages; they only provide patches for the base release. If you want to run -current, then the packages get security patches. Since I'm on dialup, that would mean a lot of bandwidth time; basically, every time firefox or some third-party app required a security fix, I'd have to download the source for _everything_ and recompile _everything_. I don't want to labor this point here, but just one more thing. If you are going to follow current, the recommended way to go about it is to do binary upgrades of the kernel (i.e, snapshots). You don't have to compile src every time. The same goes for packages, binary snapshots of which are updated every few months or so (probably not that often). http://www.openbsd.org/faq/current.html Ah. Maybe it's too complicated for me. I was only ever a user on someone else's (educational instritution's) BSD system, and did not do, or learn, sysadmin on BSD. As a Linux user since around Red Hat 4 or 5, I have never compiled anything in Linux, and have relied on package management, and have had problems with software that involved using.tar.gz files to install, to the extent that I gave up on any package that involved using .tar.gz files to install. So, if BSD is more complicated than using package management like RPM in Red Hat and .deb in Debian/Ubuntu, then it is probably too complicated for me. It's not . . . http://www.openbsd.org/ports.html -- Bret Busby Armadale West Australia .. So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the answer means. - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of Book 1 of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: A Trilogy In Four Parts, written by Douglas Adams, published by Pan Books, 1992 -- www.nealhogan.net www.lambdaserver.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: BSD handbook - was Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
On Sun, May 03, 2009 at 07:01:39AM -0500, Neal Hogan wrote: On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 1:19 PM, Bret Busby b...@busby.net wrote: On Sat, 2 May 2009, Neal Hogan wrote: On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 9:30 AM, Douglas A. Tutty dtu...@vianet.ca wrote: On Sat, May 02, 2009 at 06:27:44AM -0500, Neal Hogan wrote: So, if BSD is more complicated than using package management like RPM in Red Hat and .deb in Debian/Ubuntu, then it is probably too complicated for me. It's not . . . http://www.openbsd.org/ports.html The ports system works very easily, very similar to apt-get. However, right now, they don't have security updates for ports in -stable. If you run -current and want to update a port, AFAIK, you have to upgrade to the next snapshot for the whole system. For me, that's a lot of bandwidth on dialup. Doug. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
BSD handbook - was Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
On Sat, 25 Apr 2009, Michael Pobega wrote: On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 01:12:35PM +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote: Check out the FreeBSD handbook at: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/ It is also available as a pdf which is 1000 pages! It doesn't cover everything, but it does cover a lot. They also have other books and articles at http://www.freebsd.org/docs/books.html. That sounds more like a problem than a solution. I would not try an OS that had a 1000 page manual. I want simple, not comprehensive. Well, the thing about FBSD is that it's users are pretty much all hobbyists, so the length of a manual is a good thing. If Debian had documentation of equal or greater length I can only see that as a strength, not a weakness. And, if the handbook's content is valid and well structured (with Table of Contents, and index, etc), it would probably be an incentive for me (and others) to try FreeBSD (FreeBSD was on a recent Linux Format DVD, from memory). Decent Linux reference books in printed form, tend to be around 1000-1200 pages. Some good ones are less, significantly less, but, provided the content is useful and helpful, there is no problem with a single volume text being around 1000 pages. I haven't used BSD for about 30 years, now, and a good reference book, that is comprehensive, is a good incentive to have another go with it. I think that the BSD that I last used, was v4.2, running on a VAX 11/785. Hmm. I will have to find another free partition, somewhere... -- Bret Busby Armadale West Australia .. So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the answer means. - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of Book 1 of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: A Trilogy In Four Parts, written by Douglas Adams, published by Pan Books, 1992
Re: BSD handbook - was Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 3:32 AM, Bret Busby b...@busby.net wrote: On Sat, 25 Apr 2009, Michael Pobega wrote: On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 01:12:35PM +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote: Check out the FreeBSD handbook at: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/ It is also available as a pdf which is 1000 pages! It doesn't cover everything, but it does cover a lot. They also have other books and articles at http://www.freebsd.org/docs/books.html. That sounds more like a problem than a solution. I would not try an OS that had a 1000 page manual. I want simple, not comprehensive. Well, the thing about FBSD is that it's users are pretty much all hobbyists, so the length of a manual is a good thing. If Debian had documentation of equal or greater length I can only see that as a strength, not a weakness. And, if the handbook's content is valid and well structured (with Table of Contents, and index, etc), it would probably be an incentive for me (and others) to try FreeBSD (FreeBSD was on a recent Linux Format DVD, from memory). Decent Linux reference books in printed form, tend to be around 1000-1200 pages. Some good ones are less, significantly less, but, provided the content is useful and helpful, there is no problem with a single volume text being around 1000 pages. I haven't used BSD for about 30 years, now, and a good reference book, that is comprehensive, is a good incentive to have another go with it. I think that the BSD that I last used, was v4.2, running on a VAX 11/785. Hmm. I will have to find another free partition, somewhere... I haven't been closely following this thread. So, if I'm out-o-bounds, I apologize . . . But, if you're interested in a BSD with good (dare I say, great) documentation, I would suggest openBSD (which just came out with 4.5 yesterday). FreeBSD is alright (I've been experimenting with there most recent stable version), but I found that oBSD to be a more straightforward, less bloated OS with clear and comprehensive documentation. Some may say that the environment (mailinglist) is harsh, but that harshness can/should be interpreted as directness and it's usually focused on those who provide little/useless info about his/her situation and don't do their homework . . . i.e., read the documentation. FYI - While many of the fBSD folks will tout there ports/package system, I found it to be a pain (especially the upgrade), as did many others. There has recently been some chatter on their general mailing list to overhaul how they handle packages. Again, I found oBSD's package handling system to be superior. Good Luck! -- Bret Busby Armadale West Australia .. So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the answer means. - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of Book 1 of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: A Trilogy In Four Parts, written by Douglas Adams, published by Pan Books, 1992 -- www.nealhogan.net www.lambdaserver.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: BSD handbook - was Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
On Sat, May 02, 2009 at 06:27:44AM -0500, Neal Hogan wrote: FYI - While many of the fBSD folks will tout there ports/package system, I found it to be a pain (especially the upgrade), as did many others. There has recently been some chatter on their general mailing list to overhaul how they handle packages. Again, I found oBSD's package handling system to be superior. Last I looked (last week), OBSD doesn't have security updates (patches) for their packages; they only provide patches for the base release. If you want to run -current, then the packages get security patches. Since I'm on dialup, that would mean a lot of bandwidth time; basically, every time firefox or some third-party app required a security fix, I'd have to download the source for _everything_ and recompile _everything_. I wish I had time to work out a system that would run on base OpenBSD yet compile debs with OpenBSD's souped-up compiler. Then one would have the security of OpenBSD with good package security (Debian's security team with OpenBSD's compiler, with good responsivness). All the BSD's have a system to audit your installed packages for ones listed in a database as being insecure but the follow-on of patches to fix them is missing. Doug. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: BSD handbook - was Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
Well, the thing about FBSD is that it's users are pretty much all hobbyists, so the length of a manual is a good thing. If Debian had documentation of equal or greater length I can only see that as a strength, not a weakness. If you count folks like Yahoo as hobbyists. Last time I looked, the FreeBSD community was heavier on academics and IT professionals than hobbyists. For that matter, if you look at the latest Netcraft survey of most reliable hosting sites (http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2009/04/01/most_reliable_hosting_company_sites_in_march_2009.html) - you'll see an awful lot of FreeBSD as well. I haven't used BSD for about 30 years, now, and a good reference book, that is comprehensive, is a good incentive to have another go with it. Unless you've used a Mac recently - most of it's userland code comes from BSD. Miles Fidelman note: I should mention that I run Debian on my servers - I'd be hard-pressed to find a more convenient packaging system. But I have a lot of respect for the BSD world. -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: BSD handbook - was Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 9:30 AM, Douglas A. Tutty dtu...@vianet.ca wrote: On Sat, May 02, 2009 at 06:27:44AM -0500, Neal Hogan wrote: FYI - While many of the fBSD folks will tout there ports/package system, I found it to be a pain (especially the upgrade), as did many others. There has recently been some chatter on their general mailing list to overhaul how they handle packages. Again, I found oBSD's package handling system to be superior. Last I looked (last week), OBSD doesn't have security updates (patches) for their packages; they only provide patches for the base release. If you want to run -current, then the packages get security patches. Since I'm on dialup, that would mean a lot of bandwidth time; basically, every time firefox or some third-party app required a security fix, I'd have to download the source for _everything_ and recompile _everything_. I don't want to labor this point here, but just one more thing. If you are going to follow current, the recommended way to go about it is to do binary upgrades of the kernel (i.e, snapshots). You don't have to compile src every time. The same goes for packages, binary snapshots of which are updated every few months or so (probably not that often). http://www.openbsd.org/faq/current.html I wish I had time to work out a system that would run on base OpenBSD yet compile debs with OpenBSD's souped-up compiler. Then one would have the security of OpenBSD with good package security (Debian's security team with OpenBSD's compiler, with good responsivness). All the BSD's have a system to audit your installed packages for ones listed in a database as being insecure but the follow-on of patches to fix them is missing. Doug. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org -- www.nealhogan.net www.lambdaserver.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: BSD handbook - was Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
On Sat, 2 May 2009, Neal Hogan wrote: On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 9:30 AM, Douglas A. Tutty dtu...@vianet.ca wrote: On Sat, May 02, 2009 at 06:27:44AM -0500, Neal Hogan wrote: FYI - While many of the fBSD folks will tout there ports/package system, I found it to be a pain (especially the upgrade), as did many others. There has recently been some chatter on their general mailing list to overhaul how they handle packages. Again, I found oBSD's package handling system to be superior. Last I looked (last week), OBSD doesn't have security updates (patches) for their packages; they only provide patches for the base release. If you want to run -current, then the packages get security patches. Since I'm on dialup, that would mean a lot of bandwidth time; basically, every time firefox or some third-party app required a security fix, I'd have to download the source for _everything_ and recompile _everything_. I don't want to labor this point here, but just one more thing. If you are going to follow current, the recommended way to go about it is to do binary upgrades of the kernel (i.e, snapshots). You don't have to compile src every time. The same goes for packages, binary snapshots of which are updated every few months or so (probably not that often). http://www.openbsd.org/faq/current.html Ah. Maybe it's too complicated for me. I was only ever a user on someone else's (educational instritution's) BSD system, and did not do, or learn, sysadmin on BSD. As a Linux user since around Red Hat 4 or 5, I have never compiled anything in Linux, and have relied on package management, and have had problems with software that involved using.tar.gz files to install, to the extent that I gave up on any package that involved using .tar.gz files to install. So, if BSD is more complicated than using package management like RPM in Red Hat and .deb in Debian/Ubuntu, then it is probably too complicated for me. -- Bret Busby Armadale West Australia .. So once you do know what the question actually is, you'll know what the answer means. - Deep Thought, Chapter 28 of Book 1 of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: A Trilogy In Four Parts, written by Douglas Adams, published by Pan Books, 1992
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 06:27:03PM +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote: Peace. I wish for it every day, my friend. You have no idea. Whereas in a previous post … I am serious, and I have access to automatic weapons. -- Chris. == I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. -- Stephen F Roberts -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
On Fri, 1 May 2009 20:55:09 +1200 Chris Bannister mockingb...@earthlight.co.nz wrote: On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 06:27:03PM +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote: Peace. I wish for it every day, my friend. You have no idea. Whereas in a previous post … I am serious, and I have access to automatic weapons. Not so unusual in a soldier, especially one in Israel. Cybe R. Wizard -- Registered Linux user # 126326 Registered Ubuntu User # 2136 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
Paul Johnson wrote: Osamu Aoki wrote: I also feel that google tends to rate *.debian.org sites high so you are likely to see these more than any random blog posts with good reasons (especially if you have debian in keywords). I just wish i could get google to stop giving me useless answers I can't use revolving around Ubuntu when I search for Debian. If I wanted Ubuntu answers, 1) I'd be special in the head to start with, and 2) I'd search for Ubuntu, not Debian... As much as I'm a proponent for good manuals, vs. google... you can always add -ubuntu to your search query -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
* Miles Fidelman mfidel...@meetinghouse.net [2009-05-01 09:52:58 -0400]: As much as I'm a proponent for good manuals, vs. google... you can always add -ubuntu to your search query Good point. -- Dave signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
Osamu Aoki wrote: I also feel that google tends to rate *.debian.org sites high so you are likely to see these more than any random blog posts with good reasons (especially if you have debian in keywords). I just wish i could get google to stop giving me useless answers I can't use revolving around Ubuntu when I search for Debian. If I wanted Ubuntu answers, 1) I'd be special in the head to start with, and 2) I'd search for Ubuntu, not Debian... signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
* Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org [2009-04-30 08:41:14 -0700]: If I wanted Ubuntu answers, 1) I'd be special in the head to start with Agreed. -- Cheers, Dave signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
Actually, since I hadn't even heard of Zim, I did a zim linux google Images search and it looks like something I should get acquainted with. Great app with a very active developer who is happy to receive bug reports and feature requests. Zim has literally changed the way I work and store information. One of the little-known jewels of open source software. I do occasionally browse the web in lynx, though! I really do not like the more modern console browsers. I get by with ELinks in 256-color mode - pros: pages are rendered almost instantly even on my antiquated hardware .. cons: limited js support and no support at all for css - and multimedia naturally, a blessing in most cases. I've had elinks recommended to me in the past, I will give it another fair shot. Thanks. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
oops. I wanted this to go to the list. darn gmail :( On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 6:13 AM, David Fox dfox94...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 4:56 AM, Miles Fidelman It's a reference manual, not a getting started book - and like any reference manual it tries to have everything you might possibly need, but isn't designed to be read cover-to-cover - including everything from an Another site to look at (not for Debian specifically) is FLOSS manuals. I know one of the documenters personally. http://en.flossmanuals.net/ They can use some help. The manuals (such as they are) are introductory but you can print a copy on demand and have the book shipped to you. And it's a collaborative effort. -- thanks for letting me change the magnetic patterns on your hard disk. -- thanks for letting me change the magnetic patterns on your hard disk. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 01:39:18PM EDT, Dotan Cohen wrote: [..] You must be using one of the M$ Windows clones as your desktop. KDE 4.2 at the moment, which is acceptably quick. KDE 3.5.10 on the same hardware (2 GB RAM, 2 GHz dual core processor, 7200 RPM sata drive) was sluggish enough to be annoying. Hmm.. I do have a ubuntu 8.10 on the side - running gnome and with only 384 Meg of RAM, a 650MHz Pentium III, and a slower 5200 RPM ata drive, I wouldn't say it's really crisp but much to my surprise, it has turned out to be quite usable, at least for stuff like web browsing, video streaming, and running shells under gnome-terminal. Well, if you find it unbearably slow, you must upgrade your hardware. Surely 640k is more than enough for anyone! Occam's razor strikes again ..? :-) Else, take the consequences like a man or switch back to the linux console. I cannot open the complex OOo documents that I need on the console. I'd love an ncurses interface to Zim, though, and I might write it when the Python port is done. Actually, since I hadn't even heard of Zim, I did a zim linux google Images search and it looks like something I should get acquainted with. I do occasionally browse the web in lynx, though! I really do not like the more modern console browsers. I get by with ELinks in 256-color mode - pros: pages are rendered almost instantly even on my antiquated hardware .. cons: limited js support and no support at all for css - and multimedia naturally, a blessing in most cases. CJ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
On Mon,27.Apr.09, 10:24:39, H.S. wrote: Sure there is, but one has to keep the audience in mind. A beginner or a person just starting to find introductory information regarding current linux distros and related applications and programs is best served by google (the search is very fast and reasonably efficient) as an initial step. If one did not have today's web search engines at his disposal, it would take much longer to start getting comfortable with an OS. I agree search engines are a very good resource, but one has to be careful with the information as sometimes the solutions found are plain wrong. Of course, a reference manual can also contain mistakes (or is just outdated), but there usually is a way to contact the author to correct it. Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 09:59:01PM +0300, Andrei Popescu wrote: On Mon,27.Apr.09, 10:24:39, H.S. wrote: Sure there is, but one has to keep the audience in mind. A beginner or a person just starting to find introductory information regarding current linux distros and related applications and programs is best served by google (the search is very fast and reasonably efficient) as an initial step. If one did not have today's web search engines at his disposal, it would take much longer to start getting comfortable with an OS. I agree search engines are a very good resource, but one has to be careful with the information as sometimes the solutions found are plain wrong. Of course, a reference manual can also contain mistakes (or is just outdated), but there usually is a way to contact the author to correct it. I agree. I also feel that google tends to rate *.debian.org sites high so you are likely to see these more than any random blog posts with good reasons (especially if you have debian in keywords). So improving contents like wiki.debian.org is important. samu -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 01:10:15PM -0400, JoeHill wrote: Dotan Cohen wrote: Maybe you forgot how great of an OS Win98 was at the time. This has to be a joke. Win 98 wasn't even an operating system. It was an application that ran on top of DOS for pete's sake. That was a different world than today, and even now seeing how responsive Win98 is on old hardware (it flies on 64 MiB RAM) it makes me wonder why Debian is sometimes sluggish on 512 MiB machines with 1 GHz procesors. What?? I seriously hope I'm misunderstanding you here. You're wondering why a modern, fully functional OS needs more resources than a flaky featurless GUI that was still running on top of 16 bit DOS code? They call it progress. 95% of what I do with my computer is the same as what I did on my 486. Progress means that I now need a computer a thousand times more powerful with five-hundred times more drive space to do exactly the same thing. I would be very happy with Debian Woody (or even Potato) with security updates only. Then again, modern monitors won't plug into my 486 since it doesn't have holes for all the pins on the D-sub. Luckily, I have a few spare monitors. Doug. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 11:27:24AM +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote: Document it all you want. But don't expect Joe Toothbrush to read it all. If one _wants_ go through pages upon pages of docs to create something new, that's great and the more the merrier. But if one _must_ go through the docs to use the product, then by virtue or Occam's razor the OS with the least documentation is the easiest to use. I remember when I got OS/2. It came with lots of books on the OS, to which I added a full set of RedBooks, and I had to learn REXX, with its own set of books and RedBooks. I spent a week floating out in a canoe (while the rest of the family had a reunion) reading. That was for my 386, back in the days when computers cost about what a car did, and ram went for $1,000 / MB. I forget how much AutoCad cost. I'm one to read the 1000 page book cover-to-cover. That way, I'll rememeber a significant amount and know exactly where to look when I need something I don't remember. Doug. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
Douglas A. Tutty wrote: On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 11:27:24AM +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote: Document it all you want. But don't expect Joe Toothbrush to read it all. If one _wants_ go through pages upon pages of docs to create something new, that's great and the more the merrier. But if one _must_ go through the docs to use the product, then by virtue or Occam's razor the OS with the least documentation is the easiest to use. SNIP I'm one to read the 1000 page book cover-to-cover. That way, I'll rememeber a significant amount and know exactly where to look when I need something I don't remember. Now a days google is a *huge* help in this. -- Please reply to this list only. I read this list on its corresponding newsgroup on gmane.org. Replies sent to my email address are just filtered to a folder in my mailbox and get periodically deleted without ever having been read. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 09:57:40AM -0400, H.S. wrote: Douglas A. Tutty wrote: SNIP I'm one to read the 1000 page book cover-to-cover. That way, I'll rememeber a significant amount and know exactly where to look when I need something I don't remember. Now a days google is a *huge* help in this. Not if the book isn't on-line for google to index. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
H.S. wrote: Douglas A. Tutty wrote: On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 11:27:24AM +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote: Document it all you want. But don't expect Joe Toothbrush to read it all. If one _wants_ go through pages upon pages of docs to create something new, that's great and the more the merrier. But if one _must_ go through the docs to use the product, then by virtue or Occam's razor the OS with the least documentation is the easiest to use. SNIP I'm one to read the 1000 page book cover-to-cover. That way, I'll rememeber a significant amount and know exactly where to look when I need something I don't remember. Now a days google is a *huge* help in this. There's still something awfully useful and compelling about a serious reference manual, all in one place, with a comprehensive table-of-contents, detailed index, and embedded references. -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
Miles Fidelman wrote: H.S. wrote: Douglas A. Tutty wrote: On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 11:27:24AM +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote: Document it all you want. But don't expect Joe Toothbrush to read it all. If one _wants_ go through pages upon pages of docs to create something new, that's great and the more the merrier. But if one _must_ go through the docs to use the product, then by virtue or Occam's razor the OS with the least documentation is the easiest to use. SNIP I'm one to read the 1000 page book cover-to-cover. That way, I'll rememeber a significant amount and know exactly where to look when I need something I don't remember. Now a days google is a *huge* help in this. There's still something awfully useful and compelling about a serious reference manual, all in one place, with a comprehensive table-of-contents, detailed index, and embedded references. Sure there is, but one has to keep the audience in mind. A beginner or a person just starting to find introductory information regarding current linux distros and related applications and programs is best served by google (the search is very fast and reasonably efficient) as an initial step. If one did not have today's web search engines at his disposal, it would take much longer to start getting comfortable with an OS. Once a user is past the novice/beginner stage, a reference becomes more useful. Wikis are a breed apart, no reference book can compete against this live documentation. But an internet connection becomes an absolute necessity then. Books are the best as stand alone refs, can be read almost anywhere (in a canoe, for exampe, :) ), mostly without need of any electrical power. However, it is much more faster to search for information in an electronic text document. -- Please reply to this list only. I read this list on its corresponding newsgroup on gmane.org. Replies sent to my email address are just filtered to a folder in my mailbox and get periodically deleted without ever having been read. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 10:10:13AM -0400, Miles Fidelman wrote: H.S. wrote: Douglas A. Tutty wrote: On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 11:27:24AM +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote: Now a days google is a *huge* help in this. There's still something awfully useful and compelling about a serious reference manual, all in one place, with a comprehensive table-of-contents, detailed index, and embedded references. Especially when the problem is that the computer won't boot, or can't get on the internet to run google... Doug. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
H.S. wrote: Miles Fidelman wrote: There's still something awfully useful and compelling about a serious reference manual, all in one place, with a comprehensive table-of-contents, detailed index, and embedded references. Sure there is, but one has to keep the audience in mind. A beginner or a person just starting to find introductory information regarding current linux distros and related applications and programs is best served by google (the search is very fast and reasonably efficient) as an initial step. If one did not have today's web search engines at his disposal, it would take much longer to start getting comfortable with an OS. Once a user is past the novice/beginner stage, a reference becomes more useful. Wikis are a breed apart, no reference book can compete against this live documentation. But an internet connection becomes an absolute necessity then. Books are the best as stand alone refs, can be read almost anywhere (in a canoe, for exampe, :) ), mostly without need of any electrical power. However, it is much more faster to search for information in an electronic text document. I beg to differ. There's a reason that dummies books and missing manuals sell so well. I google all the time, but it helps to have some idea of what one is looking for, and how to select from among the huge amounts of things one finds - something beginners can't be expected to know. That's one of the reasons I tend to start with Wikipedia for topics that are new to me, vs. Google for topics I know a lot about. Re. Unix documentation: - pretty much all major distros have thorough and easy to find installation manuals (e.g., http://debian.org/releases/stable/installmanual) - for Debian, the documentation page (http://debian.org/doc/), lists a reference manual (http://debian.org/doc/manuals/reference/), detailed maintainer and developer references, and pointers to general Linux manuals for Linux Installation and Getting Started http://www.tldp.org/LDP/gs/gs.html, Linux Users' Guide http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/docs/linux-doc-project/users-guide/, Network Administrators' Guide http://www.tldp.org/LDP/nag/nag.html, System Administrator's Guide http://www.tldp.org/LDP/sag/ (or you can go to tldp.org or http://www.debian-administration.org/). The level of maintenance of the various documents varies. - For FreeBSD, a lot of the above is condensed into a single, well maintained document, with TOC, index, and embedded references. NetBSD takes a similar approach, though with not quite as much info combined into a single document. Personally, I think the FreeBSD folks do the best job of accessible, up-to-date documentation of anyone in the Unix/Linux arena. They set a high standard worth of emulation, rather than excuses. -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
Miles Fidelman wrote: H.S. wrote: Miles Fidelman wrote: There's still something awfully useful and compelling about a serious reference manual, all in one place, with a comprehensive table-of-contents, detailed index, and embedded references. Sure there is, but one has to keep the audience in mind. A beginner or a person just starting to find introductory information regarding current linux distros and related applications and programs is best served by google (the search is very fast and reasonably efficient) as an initial step. If one did not have today's web search engines at his disposal, it would take much longer to start getting comfortable with an OS. Once a user is past the novice/beginner stage, a reference becomes more useful. Wikis are a breed apart, no reference book can compete against this live documentation. But an internet connection becomes an absolute necessity then. Books are the best as stand alone refs, can be read almost anywhere (in a canoe, for exampe, :) ), mostly without need of any electrical power. However, it is much more faster to search for information in an electronic text document. I beg to differ. There's a reason that dummies books and missing I did not have these kind of texts in mind. I was thinking about the usual traditional serious text: user guides versus reference manuals. Many people mistakenly interchange the two terms to describe a text. manuals sell so well. I google all the time, but it helps to have some idea of what one is looking for, and how to select from among the huge amounts of things one finds - something beginners can't be expected to Yes, one would think that. However, I have seen novices search google with terms that comes to their mind (instead of technically precise terms) about a particular task or aspect of an OS and still find answers. This works, IMHO, because some other posters have used similar vocabulary for similar problem. So if one is not familiar with the precise terminology and has a vague idea what to look for, online searches tend to be much more efficient than books since a books is hardly going to rephrase every problem in every possible way using every variation of terms. That same user, after a bit of searching, has a better grasp of terminology because the related comments or answers online have clarified or refined that and can refer to a book more comfortably. In short, searching with informal or casual language is best served by online searches than by technical text. The other way is the most traditional, asking local gurus or friends. -- Please reply to this list only. I read this list on its corresponding newsgroup on gmane.org. Replies sent to my email address are just filtered to a folder in my mailbox and get periodically deleted without ever having been read. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
In 49f5c5dc.8070...@meetinghouse.net, Miles Fidelman wrote: - for Debian, the documentation page (http://debian.org/doc/), lists a reference manual (http://debian.org/doc/manuals/reference/), detailed maintainer and developer references, and pointers to general Linux manuals for Linux Installation and Getting Started http://www.tldp.org/LDP/gs/gs.html, Linux Users' Guide http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/docs/linux-doc-project/users-guide/, Network Administrators' Guide http://www.tldp.org/LDP/nag/nag.html, System Administrator's Guide http://www.tldp.org/LDP/sag/ (or you can go to tldp.org or http://www.debian-administration.org/). The level of maintenance of the various documents varies. - For FreeBSD, a lot of the above is condensed into a single, well maintained document, with TOC, index, and embedded references. NetBSD takes a similar approach, though with not quite as much info combined into a single document. I, for one, prefer the multi-document approach. I do not think FreeBSD is to be emulated without question. -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. b...@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/\_/ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
Honestly, I thought Dotan wrote the above in jest and forget the :-). I certainly did not post in earnest. I meant it. Two years ago I had to maintain a Win98 machine that ran some library software - nothing else, no internet - on 64 MB RAM on a 433 MHz processor. The thing flew. It would open menus and respond instantly. I remember that OS when it first came out, I think that it was the first time I had ever seen real multitasking (I don't think that worked in Win95, and Macs were useless in that era). I know that today the whole Windows family is a bloated, insecure mess, but they once had really good products. On the other hand, what I wrote was bare-bone facts .. They did give me a 20-page manual, _and_ notepad, a web browser, a calculator and a few other Accessories whose relevance I was not able to determine at the time. I agree that Windows comes with almost no installed software of any value. If that's what you meant by capabilities of the OS then you are right. I see the applications as being separate from the OS, but I can understand the viewpoint that if they came with it, then they are a part of it. Surely I missed something, but all the same I was not exactly bowled over by the OS .. or the distro. I don't know for sure, because less than a month later I installed Red Hat 6.2 and never gave anything Windows another glance. As to a 1,000-page manual (or ten-100 page manuals, or one hundred 10-page manuals) .. one should probably keep in mind that it's not just the OS that is therein documented but the entire distro. I am not a user of FreeBSD, but if you consider that current estimates of major linux distros run into the _hundreds of millions_ of lines of source code, I don't see how one thousand pages of documentation could tell you more than the basics..! Q. Since this appears to be an issue, how many pages of documentation do you think there are in /usr/share/man on the average user-oriented machine? A. Many. Mine has 30Meg's worth, gzipped so it's likely close to the mythical 1,000 mark .. possibly more. And that's only the man pages .. many of them only a few lines that tell you that the app did not have a man page. As to my assuming anything Windows is modern, I'm not sure where you got the idea.. Depending on how your define Modern. If requiring 2 GB RAM and a 2 GHz processor just to turn the thing on is modern, then Vista is probably the most modern OS in existence! That said, I really like the UI features of Windows 7, even though most of the things that annoy me in Windows are still present. I filed feature requests at KDE for the Windows 7 features that I liked. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
On a 650Mhz with 384 MiB RAM laptop, Windows 98 was NOT flying by any stretch of the imagination.. it was.. hmm.. tolerably sluggish. Unless you went crazy started opening windows by the handful, of course. If you did, MTBF was about two hours. I have seen it run very well on much less hardware, though the machine was not networked. I do agree about the stability. I think that they reset that machine at lunch break as a preventative measure, ie, four hours of uptime at most! it makes me wonder why Debian is sometimes sluggish on 512 MiB machines with 1 GHz procesors. Stop wondering and start thinking. :-) You must be using one of the M$ Windows clones as your desktop. KDE 4.2 at the moment, which is acceptably quick. KDE 3.5.10 on the same hardware (2 GB RAM, 2 GHz dual core processor, 7200 RPM sata drive) was sluggish enough to be annoying. Well, if you find it unbearably slow, you must upgrade your hardware. Surely 640k is more than enough for anyone! Else, take the consequences like a man or switch back to the linux console. I cannot open the complex OOo documents that I need on the console. I'd love an ncurses interface to Zim, though, and I might write it when the Python port is done. I do occasionally browse the web in lynx, though! I really do not like the more modern console browsers. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
Especially when the problem is that the computer won't boot, or can't get on the internet to run google... Keep a LiveCD handy. It's gotten me at least far enough to Google what I need at least three times in recent memory. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
They call it progress. 95% of what I do with my computer is the same as what I did on my 486. Progress means that I now need a computer a thousand times more powerful with five-hundred times more drive space to do exactly the same thing. +5 Insightful I would be very happy with Debian Woody (or even Potato) with security updates only. Have you looked at DSL or Puppy? They're not Debian based (or maybe they are), but they are about as lean as one could reasonably go today. Then again, modern monitors won't plug into my 486 since it doesn't have holes for all the pins on the D-sub. Luckily, I have a few spare monitors. Forward X to your fileserver with a VGA card, then! -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
Dotan Cohen wrote: Maybe you forgot how great of an OS Win98 was at the time. It wasn't. It was still a 32-bit multitasking hack sitting on top of what amounted to a 16-bit version of an 8-bit single-tasking operating system with no cohesive security controls. It was obsolete when it was still in development, even compared to what Debian had going on. I remember it well, because Win9x is what drove me to Debian to begin with. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
2009/4/27 Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org: Dotan Cohen wrote: Maybe you forgot how great of an OS Win98 was at the time. It wasn't. It was still a 32-bit multitasking hack sitting on top of what amounted to a 16-bit version of an 8-bit single-tasking operating system with no cohesive security controls. ...based on a 4 bit architecture from a 2 bit company that can't stand 1 bit of competition! It was obsolete when it was still in development, even compared to what Debian had going on. I remember it well, because Win9x is what drove me to Debian to begin with. I wouldn't say obsolete, at least not for the desktop. But I was unfamiliar with Linux at the time, my first Linux box was Red Hat 7.[1,2] with KDE 2 in late 2001. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
Chris Jones wrote: On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 06:12:35AM EDT, Dotan Cohen wrote: Check out the FreeBSD handbook at: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/ It is also available as a pdf which is 1000 pages! It doesn't cover everything, but it does cover a lot. They also have other books and articles at http://www.freebsd.org/docs/books.html. That sounds more like a problem than a solution. I would not try an OS that had a 1000 page manual. I want simple, not comprehensive. I don't know about their more recent consumer-grade offering but you may want to take a look at Windows '98. When I got the laptop, it came with a 20-page or so manual. But then considering the capabilities of the OS that was probably overkill anyway. That wrongly assumes anything Windows is a modern OS, when in reality it's just a rehash of the worst ideas CP/M and VMS had to offer. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
Dotan Cohen wrote: Check out the FreeBSD handbook at: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/ It is also available as a pdf which is 1000 pages! It doesn't cover everything, but it does cover a lot. They also have other books and articles at http://www.freebsd.org/docs/books.html. That sounds more like a problem than a solution. I would not try an OS that had a 1000 page manual. I want simple, not comprehensive. I have experienced that a user's skills set increases on an OS, he is interested in more detailed documentation. So a cheat sheet like documentation may be very nice to get a user up and running (or a quick and dirty reference), but to delve deeper in to an OS, a detailed and comprehensive documentation is invaluable. Consequently, such a documentation could be taken as one of metrics to decide maturity of a system. Take Gentoo's for example. I have seen that their documentation tends to be thorough, but not in any cryptic sense. It is actually quite explanatory about what is really going on. Interestingly, I have been able to skip paras and section which I have at times decided to be too low level to refer to for a given problem. So in a sense, it is quite friendly while being comprehensive and detailed. Wonderful job. -- Please reply to this list only. I read this list on its corresponding newsgroup on gmane.org. Replies sent to my email address are just filtered to a folder in my mailbox and get periodically deleted without ever having been read. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
In 87zle4497u@thumper.dhh.gt.org, John Hasler wrote: Dotan Cohen wrote: That sounds more like a problem than a solution. I would not try an OS that had a 1000 page manual. I want simple, not comprehensive. Then you'd better give up computers. It takes more than 1000 pages to properly document any operating system. Try ls /usr/share/man/* | wc. Heh. I also value comprehensive over simple, but there is quite a bit of middle-ground. A 1000-page document is getting really close to a multi- volume printing. If you are going to have to go multi-volume, it makes more sense to have much smaller Standard Operations and Common Issues document (which most people would consider the manual) that directed the user to more specialized documentation for the cases it does not cover. The documentation for Lenny (or FreeBSD) can't hope to be truly comprehensive. It is built on a number of documentation sources (both industry standards and references for proprietary components) that can't be incorporated directly because of their licensing and have to be referenced instead. Luckily, only the rarest of individuals will *need* to seek some of that documentation out and *no one* will need to seek /all/ of it out.[1] -- Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. ,= ,-_-. =. b...@iguanasuicide.net ((_/)o o(\_)) ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-' http://iguanasuicide.net/\_/ [1] I am exempting alien archaeologists attempting to reconstruct the OS long after our civilization has destroyed itself. But archaeologists are used to not having all the pieces for many, many years, if ever. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
That sounds more like a problem than a solution. I would not try an OS that had a 1000 page manual. I want simple, not comprehensive. Then you'd better give up computers. It takes more than 1000 pages to properly document any operating system. Try ls /usr/share/man/* | wc. Document it all you want. But don't expect Joe Toothbrush to read it all. If one _wants_ go through pages upon pages of docs to create something new, that's great and the more the merrier. But if one _must_ go through the docs to use the product, then by virtue or Occam's razor the OS with the least documentation is the easiest to use. I view a manual transmission as _letting_me_ shift the gears. The wife views it as _making_her_ shift the gears. Which is preferable for those who love to drive, and which is preferable for thsoe who want to get from point A to point B? Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
I don't know about their more recent consumer-grade offering but you may want to take a look at Windows '98. When I got the laptop, it came with a 20-page or so manual. But then considering the capabilities of the OS that was probably overkill anyway. That wrongly assumes anything Windows is a modern OS, when in reality it's just a rehash of the worst ideas CP/M and VMS had to offer. Because MS-bashing on a Debian-centric list does wonder for promoting the usage of FOSS software, right? Maybe you forgot how great of an OS Win98 was at the time. That was a different world than today, and even now seeing how responsive Win98 is on old hardware (it flies on 64 MiB RAM) it makes me wonder why Debian is sometimes sluggish on 512 MiB machines with 1 GHz procesors. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
Paul Johnson wrote: Chris Jones wrote: On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 06:12:35AM EDT, Dotan Cohen wrote: Check out the FreeBSD handbook at: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/ It is also available as a pdf which is 1000 pages! It doesn't cover everything, but it does cover a lot. They also have other books and articles at http://www.freebsd.org/docs/books.html. That sounds more like a problem than a solution. I would not try an OS that had a 1000 page manual. I want simple, not comprehensive. Actually, it's a great example. It's a reference manual, not a getting started book - and like any reference manual it tries to have everything you might possibly need, but isn't designed to be read cover-to-cover - including everything from an introduction to Unix to installation to administration, with a comprehensive table of contents and index. Sort of like combining the Debian installation instructions, an introduction to Unix, basic user commands, and a sys admin manual, into one document. 1000 pages is also an exaggeration. Take a look at it before you start bashing it. I don't know about their more recent consumer-grade offering but you may want to take a look at Windows '98. When I got the laptop, it came with a 20-page or so manual. But then considering the capabilities of the OS that was probably overkill anyway. That wrongly assumes anything Windows is a modern OS, when in reality it's just a rehash of the worst ideas CP/M and VMS had to offer. Now Mac OSX, on the other hand is a lot more modern, with full-blown Unix underpinnings (BSD flavored). (Sure makes it easy to go back and forth between a Mac laptop and a Debian server farm). Miles -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
Dotan Cohen wrote: I don't know about their more recent consumer-grade offering but you may want to take a look at Windows '98. When I got the laptop, it came with a 20-page or so manual. But then considering the capabilities of the OS that was probably overkill anyway. That wrongly assumes anything Windows is a modern OS, when in reality it's just a rehash of the worst ideas CP/M and VMS had to offer. Because MS-bashing on a Debian-centric list does wonder for promoting the usage of FOSS software, right? It's not bashing, it's factual. Read about the history of Windows 'ingenuity' here: http://www.vanwensveen.nl/rants/microsoft/IhateMS_1.html Maybe you forgot how great of an OS Win98 was at the time. This has to be a joke. Win 98 wasn't even an operating system. It was an application that ran on top of DOS for pete's sake. That was a different world than today, and even now seeing how responsive Win98 is on old hardware (it flies on 64 MiB RAM) it makes me wonder why Debian is sometimes sluggish on 512 MiB machines with 1 GHz procesors. What?? I seriously hope I'm misunderstanding you here. You're wondering why a modern, fully functional OS needs more resources than a flaky featurless GUI that was still running on top of 16 bit DOS code? You seriously need to do some reading. Sorry, but it annoys me when people speak about things without making even a token effort at learning the subject first. -- J -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 01:12:03AM EDT, Paul Johnson wrote: Chris Jones wrote: On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 06:12:35AM EDT, Dotan Cohen wrote: Check out the FreeBSD handbook at: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/ It is also available as a pdf which is 1000 pages! It doesn't cover everything, but it does cover a lot. They also have other books and articles at http://www.freebsd.org/docs/books.html. That sounds more like a problem than a solution. I would not try an OS that had a 1000 page manual. I want simple, not comprehensive. I don't know about their more recent consumer-grade offering but you may want to take a look at Windows '98. When I got the laptop, it came with a 20-page or so manual. But then considering the capabilities of the OS that was probably overkill anyway. That wrongly assumes anything Windows is a modern OS, when in reality it's just a rehash of the worst ideas CP/M and VMS had to offer. Honestly, I thought Dotan wrote the above in jest and forget the :-). I certainly did not post in earnest. On the other hand, what I wrote was bare-bone facts .. They did give me a 20-page manual, _and_ notepad, a web browser, a calculator and a few other Accessories whose relevance I was not able to determine at the time. Surely I missed something, but all the same I was not exactly bowled over by the OS .. or the distro. I don't know for sure, because less than a month later I installed Red Hat 6.2 and never gave anything Windows another glance. As to a 1,000-page manual (or ten-100 page manuals, or one hundred 10-page manuals) .. one should probably keep in mind that it's not just the OS that is therein documented but the entire distro. I am not a user of FreeBSD, but if you consider that current estimates of major linux distros run into the _hundreds of millions_ of lines of source code, I don't see how one thousand pages of documentation could tell you more than the basics..! Q. Since this appears to be an issue, how many pages of documentation do you think there are in /usr/share/man on the average user-oriented machine? A. Many. Mine has 30Meg's worth, gzipped so it's likely close to the mythical 1,000 mark .. possibly more. And that's only the man pages .. many of them only a few lines that tell you that the app did not have a man page. As to my assuming anything Windows is modern, I'm not sure where you got the idea.. CJ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 04:31:17AM EDT, Dotan Cohen wrote: I don't know about their more recent consumer-grade offering but you may want to take a look at Windows '98. When I got the laptop, it came with a 20-page or so manual. But then considering the capabilities of the OS that was probably overkill anyway. That wrongly assumes anything Windows is a modern OS, when in reality it's just a rehash of the worst ideas CP/M and VMS had to offer. Because MS-bashing on a Debian-centric list does wonder for promoting the usage of FOSS software, right? I'm not promoting anything. A bit of anti-M$ trolling is always fun and could get the party going. :-) Maybe you forgot how great of an OS Win98 was at the time. That was a different world than today, and even now seeing how responsive Win98 is on old hardware (it flies on 64 MiB RAM) On a 650Mhz with 384 MiB RAM laptop, Windows 98 was NOT flying by any stretch of the imagination.. it was.. hmm.. tolerably sluggish. Unless you went crazy started opening windows by the handful, of course. If you did, MTBF was about two hours. it makes me wonder why Debian is sometimes sluggish on 512 MiB machines with 1 GHz procesors. Stop wondering and start thinking. :-) You must be using one of the M$ Windows clones as your desktop. Well, if you find it unbearably slow, you must upgrade your hardware. Else, take the consequences like a man or switch back to the linux console. CJ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
Because MS-bashing on a Debian-centric list does wonder for promoting the usage of FOSS software, right? I'm not promoting anything. A bit of anti-M$ trolling is always fun and could get the party going. :-) I was a Windows admin for a number of years, that company drove me to Linux, the trolling is appreciated! -- Petrus Validus petrus.vali...@gmail.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
Check out the FreeBSD handbook at: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/ It is also available as a pdf which is 1000 pages! It doesn't cover everything, but it does cover a lot. They also have other books and articles at http://www.freebsd.org/docs/books.html. That sounds more like a problem than a solution. I would not try an OS that had a 1000 page manual. I want simple, not comprehensive. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
On Thu,23.Apr.09, 00:13:54, Javier Barroso wrote: It would be awesome seeing all the questions asked here (in this list) solved with a pointer to our wiki (this would mean there would be a team which extracts resume from the list and put conclusions in the wiki, but sure nobody has time for this). Contributions welcome ;) http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 01:12:35PM +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote: Check out the FreeBSD handbook at: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/ It is also available as a pdf which is 1000 pages! It doesn't cover everything, but it does cover a lot. They also have other books and articles at http://www.freebsd.org/docs/books.html. That sounds more like a problem than a solution. I would not try an OS that had a 1000 page manual. I want simple, not comprehensive. Well, the thing about FBSD is that it's users are pretty much all hobbyists, so the length of a manual is a good thing. If Debian had documentation of equal or greater length I can only see that as a strength, not a weakness. -- http://fuzzydev.org/~pobega http://identi.ca/pobega -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
Hi,
On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 7:28 PM, Andrei Popescu
andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu,23.Apr.09, 00:13:54, Javier Barroso wrote:
It would be awesome seeing all the questions asked here (in this list)
solved with a pointer to our wiki (this would mean there would be a
team which extracts resume from the list and put conclusions in the
wiki, but sure nobody has time for this).
Contributions welcome ;)
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser
I didn't know that page, good link. Thank you very much for do it
possible. I would like to know which kind of questions could be
allocate there to expand the faq.
I think about more questions that are read here, perhaps we could only
point to resources where there are answered. Examples are:
- My {sound/ethernet/wireless/bluetooth} card is not working, what to do ?
- My computer won't start (Boot loader / X questions)
Of course it are linux general questions, so perhaps debianUserFaq is
not the best site for that points (but if these questions are asked
here continuosly, would be good have it collected).
Another idea would be having DebianWay pages in these activities
where debian has procedure itself. Networking, X/console
configuration, alternatives, reportbug, apache .. (and others
components that are configured in debian differently than other
distros). Well ..., thinking it better, all wiki.debian.org describe
the debian way of doing everything (so this comment should be ignore
:) ).
Regards,
--
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Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
On Sat, Apr 25, 2009 at 06:12:35AM EDT, Dotan Cohen wrote: Check out the FreeBSD handbook at: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/ It is also available as a pdf which is 1000 pages! It doesn't cover everything, but it does cover a lot. They also have other books and articles at http://www.freebsd.org/docs/books.html. That sounds more like a problem than a solution. I would not try an OS that had a 1000 page manual. I want simple, not comprehensive. I don't know about their more recent consumer-grade offering but you may want to take a look at Windows '98. When I got the laptop, it came with a 20-page or so manual. But then considering the capabilities of the OS that was probably overkill anyway. :-) CJ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
Dotan Cohen wrote: That sounds more like a problem than a solution. I would not try an OS that had a 1000 page manual. I want simple, not comprehensive. Then you'd better give up computers. It takes more than 1000 pages to properly document any operating system. Try ls /usr/share/man/* | wc. -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
Steve Kemp wrote at 2009-04-24 09:08 -0500: Were my site not already present I'd not start it now - instead I'd post to the wiki, or other sites. (The wiki is nice, but it isn't a perfect medium because people cannot post questions, leave comments, etc. I do think that forum-like sites are valuable for that reason if no other.) Like others, I like the idea of 'consolidating' information to wiki.debian.org but perhaps spreading information across sites can be good in case eg. rabid monkeys eat wiki.debian.org. Similarly, we would like for more people to use Debian, but the many other Linux distributions provide diversity and a fallback if Debian were to go away for some reason (hope not, any other would be a step down in my opinion). Having said that even if you have a site that contains a single page of good content and somebody stumbles upon it, solving their problem, it is hard to regard that as a failure. I would like to second this; kudos to machiner for any content that helps people use Debian. b. If you could declutter and cleanup the site more people would enjoy it. I found it overly complex, and some of the language used was both inflammatory and childish. See this image for what the page looks like to me in amd64 iceweasel 3.0.6-1 (notice that black bar, and it jumps around with each mouseover): http://f.imagehost.org/0120/debiantutorials1.png signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
Reply to: pob...@fuzzydev.org Original Message Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 00:08:29 -0400 RE: Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood [See Original Message Below] You misunderstand me. Hearing people say that they would rather contribute to another source, esp one where they may have an email address, doesn't rial me at all. Why would it? That would mean that I took personally these little characters in front of me; black, on a white background. Moreover, my comment that you refer to was directed at one person. I don't know how that could have been misconstrued. This list is not exclusive to developers. Many people read it. Sure, I'd love a dev or 2, and I clearly asked, to contribute to the site. Why wouldn't I? But, I'd be just as happy, and I think the community the site serves would be as well, if anyone would give up a couple hours of their life to donate to the site. I never, nor do I now, expect this, though. That would make me arrogant to a point that even I couldn't stand ;) The site is my gift, so to speak, and why in the world would I demand some sort of return gift? lol, gifts don't work that way. So, maybe I wasn't as clear as I could have been with my OP. The site seeks contributions. It's not a lame site, it doesn't give bad information, although sometimes spelling mistakes occur! It's a site that sometimes shows or gives a person that thing that may have been missing for them. Maybe. Or, like college, maybe it prompted that person to think about a thing differently. Or, and this is the best that I could ever hope for -- maybe it simply made that person relax a little bit. You know, maybe even smile. I think the site NEEDS contributions from other people. In the past I have been castigated by a reader or 2 if I wrote something contrary to what they were expecting. I make no apologies, the site is character driven for a reason. (characters do evolve, however ;) ) This means that when this visitor was reading the site, (s)he was doing so with a hopeful heart and whatever concept or smartass quip I wrote hit them hard. Which, of course, means that this visitor thought the site authoritative enough to have faith in it. The site NEEDS contributions from other than me for this reason alone. I feel a strong sense of responsibility and know absolutely that I can't live up to that by continuing to go it alone. Do you understand? Frankly, I'm sick of talking about it. I asked. If one or 3 or even 19 people contact me because of it -- WOOHOO Then, the community will benefit. If no -- WOOHOO!!! I asked and I accomplished what I wanted to do. As a closing thought I would also like to mention that I am overjoyed that other sites exist that document Debian or Linux or other open source projects. Overjoyed because we are all different - we say things differently, our cultures command us to behave in unique ways. It's terribly important to have different voices contributing similar things because one source - no matter how brilliant - will fail to reach all but those that can relate to how that one source puts it out there. And that would be too bad. Thank everybody for having something to say about this and everyone that emailed me off the list. The community I belong to is wicked! ;) Happy Computing --machiner - On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 00:08:29 -0400 pob...@fuzzydev.org wrote: On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 07:43:55AM -0400, machiner wrote: I thought I asked you a question. There's no reason to be rude. All we're saying is that instead of running your own site, why not contribute to a pre-existing site? I'm personally hoping that one day I can say that Debian's Wiki trumps Gentoo or FreeBSD's documentation. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
Reply to: hs.sa...@gmail.com Original Message Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 00:25:39 -0400 RE: Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood [See Original Message Below] Indeed. The Gentoo documentation is the best that I have ever seen as well. - On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 00:25:39 -0400 hs.sa...@gmail.com wrote: Michael Pobega wrote: On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 07:43:55AM -0400, machiner wrote: I thought I asked you a question. There's no reason to be rude. All we're saying is that instead of running your own site, why not contribute to a pre-existing site? I'm personally hoping that one day I can say that Debian's Wiki trumps Gentoo or FreeBSD's documentation. Now that you mention it I think I agree with this, the best documentation regarding Linux I have seen on line is Gentoo's. Next comes Debian's. No idea about FreeBSD's though. But I wish we had as robust and detailed on line documentation as Gentoo's. Those guys are do some pretty robust work there! However, I am yet to see a distro that I like more than Debian. I never tire of praising Debian devs (and users here) regarding their basic strong principles of a Free Debian and robust package and distro managment. Kudos to them! signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
Indeed. The Gentoo documentation is the best that I have ever seen as well. I think that you could leverage this. _Don't_ be a documentation site. Find some other Debian information to specialize in, such as CLI humour, comparisons between the Debian Way and the Ubuntu/Fedora/Gentoo/* Way, and such. Many people have mentioned that what you are attempting to do has already been done. Identify what _hasn't_ been done for Debian (even if it has been done for Gentoo or some other distro) and do that. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
On Fri Apr 24, 2009 at 08:14:52 -0400, machiner wrote: This list is not exclusive to developers. Many people read it. Sure, I'd love a dev or 2, and I clearly asked, to contribute to the site. Why wouldn't I? But, I'd be just as happy, and I think the community the site serves would be as well, if anyone would give up a couple hours of their life to donate to the site. A couple of years ago I setup debian-administration.org because I thought there were a need for such a thing for myself if for nobody else. At that time the Debian wiki was mostly empty, and the competition was lacking. People mentioned my site previously in this tread, and whenever the topic comes up people seem to speak reasonably highly of it - but while I think that having community sites is a good thing, but I also believe that unless you're doing something very niche, very specialized, or very strongly focused additional sites really do serve to fragment users. Were my site not already present I'd not start it now - instead I'd post to the wiki, or other sites. (The wiki is nice, but it isn't a perfect medium because people cannot post questions, leave comments, etc. I do think that forum-like sites are valuable for that reason if no other.) Having said that even if you have a site that contains a single page of good content and somebody stumbles upon it, solving their problem, it is hard to regard that as a failure. In short - keep up the work, if it is useful it will attract visitors, and be indexed by engines, and some day you might save people a lot of time. My only specific suggestions for your site in particular would be: a. Never rely on outside contributors. My site, sadly, has more people writing than contributing by at least 1000:1 and I think that is common. b. If you could declutter and cleanup the site more people would enjoy it. I found it overly complex, and some of the language used was both inflammatory and childish. Steve -- Managed Anti-Spam Service http://mail-scanning.com/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 12:13:54AM +0200, Javier Barroso wrote: www.debian.org/usr/share/doc/ or usr.share.doc.debian.org/ where you could find all docs from debian packages. It would be nice (I think) aptitude install dwww Now look at http://localhost/dwww A site providing that to all packages would indeed be handy as well. -- Tzafrir Cohen | tzaf...@jabber.org | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's tzaf...@cohens.org.il || best ICQ# 16849754 || friend -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
H.S. hs.sa...@gmail.com writes: Michael Pobega wrote: On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 07:43:55AM -0400, machiner wrote: I thought I asked you a question. There's no reason to be rude. All we're saying is that instead of running your own site, why not contribute to a pre-existing site? I'm personally hoping that one day I can say that Debian's Wiki trumps Gentoo or FreeBSD's documentation. Now that you mention it I think I agree with this, the best documentation regarding Linux I have seen on line is Gentoo's. Next comes Debian's. No idea about FreeBSD's though. But I wish we had as robust and detailed on line documentation as Gentoo's. Those guys are do some pretty robust work there! Check out the FreeBSD handbook at: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/ It is also available as a pdf which is 1000 pages! It doesn't cover everything, but it does cover a lot. They also have other books and articles at http://www.freebsd.org/docs/books.html. -- Carl Johnsonca...@peak.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 01:27:32PM EDT, Carl Johnson wrote: H.S. hs.sa...@gmail.com writes: Michael Pobega wrote: On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 07:43:55AM -0400, machiner wrote: I thought I asked you a question. There's no reason to be rude. All we're saying is that instead of running your own site, why not contribute to a pre-existing site? I'm personally hoping that one day I can say that Debian's Wiki trumps Gentoo or FreeBSD's documentation. Now that you mention it I think I agree with this, the best documentation regarding Linux I have seen on line is Gentoo's. Next comes Debian's. No idea about FreeBSD's though. But I wish we had as robust and detailed on line documentation as Gentoo's. Those guys are do some pretty robust work there! Check out the FreeBSD handbook at: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/ It is also available as a pdf which is 1000 pages! It doesn't cover everything, but it does cover a lot. They also have other books and articles at http://www.freebsd.org/docs/books.html. Thanks for these links. CJ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
On Wed, 22 Apr 2009 17:40:11 -0400, machiner wrote in message 20090422174011.4719e...@lapbox: I'm laughing as I write thisOh my. ..once you're done, Javier Barroso has an excellent proposal. ;o) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
Reply to: a...@c2i.net Original Message Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 12:13:28 +0200 RE: Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood [See Original Message Below] I thought I asked you a question. - On Thu, 23 Apr 2009 12:13:28 +0200 a...@c2i.net wrote: On Wed, 22 Apr 2009 17:40:11 -0400, machiner wrote in message 20090422174011.4719e...@lapbox: I'm laughing as I write thisOh my. ..once you're done, Javier Barroso has an excellent proposal. ;o) signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 07:43:55AM -0400, machiner wrote: I thought I asked you a question. There's no reason to be rude. All we're saying is that instead of running your own site, why not contribute to a pre-existing site? I'm personally hoping that one day I can say that Debian's Wiki trumps Gentoo or FreeBSD's documentation. -- http://fuzzydev.org/~pobega http://identi.ca/pobega -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
Michael Pobega wrote: On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 07:43:55AM -0400, machiner wrote: I thought I asked you a question. There's no reason to be rude. All we're saying is that instead of running your own site, why not contribute to a pre-existing site? I'm personally hoping that one day I can say that Debian's Wiki trumps Gentoo or FreeBSD's documentation. Now that you mention it I think I agree with this, the best documentation regarding Linux I have seen on line is Gentoo's. Next comes Debian's. No idea about FreeBSD's though. But I wish we had as robust and detailed on line documentation as Gentoo's. Those guys are do some pretty robust work there! However, I am yet to see a distro that I like more than Debian. I never tire of praising Debian devs (and users here) regarding their basic strong principles of a Free Debian and robust package and distro managment. Kudos to them! -- Please reply to this list only. I read this list on its corresponding newsgroup on gmane.org. Replies sent to my email address are just filtered to a folder in my mailbox and get periodically deleted without ever having been read. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
debiantutorials.org is 4 years old, the blog aspect is new for new Debian users to write about their experiences. The site may have been available, but it was unknown until now. I'm hearing a lot that the web is already saturated with Debian documentation, and you may be right. There are many, many sites out there with related information. Mine, too. However my site is completely different than all of them. It's very easy to see, as well. How is it different? Serious question, not trolling. If it has something new to offer that the current sites cannot provide, then I am sure that the community would welcome it. Where else but here to ask for assistance? I don't know, but to be honest I didn't expect such a negative reaction. You did not get a negative reaction! Everyone has applauded your efforts, and some have made suggestions, however, it has been said that your efforts would be better gone into improving the current documentation instead of spreading it out further. Thanks for all the input. I won't bother the list with this again. A good way to introduce the site to the list would be to answer questions with links to your site. Such as, when a user asks how to install MythTV on Debian, you could provide him with a link to the page of your site that explains how to do just that. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
On Wednesday 22 April 2009 04:01:57 H.S. wrote: Lisi Reisz wrote: If you are seeking help, it might be worth supplying a URL. The truth of your Isn't that in the subject line? Or am I missing something here? -- Please reply to this list only. I read this list on its corresponding newsgroup on gmane.org. Replies sent to my email address are just filtered to a folder in my mailbox and get periodically deleted without ever having been read. No - I am. :-( Mea maxima culpa. :-( -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
On Wed, 22 Apr 2009 09:22:29 +0300, Dotan wrote in message 880dece00904212322r17423bees4ef602e95f033...@mail.gmail.com: debiantutorials.org is 4 years old, the blog aspect is new for new Debian users to write about their experiences. The site may have been available, but it was unknown until now. ... Thanks for all the input. I won't bother the list with this again. A good way to introduce the site to the list would be to answer questions with links to your site. Such as, when a user asks how to install MythTV on Debian, you could provide him with a link to the page of your site that explains how to do just that. ..http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://debiantutorials.org/ might help explain that site's credibility and its need to seek input and new blood. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
Reply to: a...@c2i.net Original Message Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2009 21:42:04 +0200 RE: Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood [See Original Message Below] AYKM? http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.howtoforge.comcharset=%28detect+automatically%29doctype=Inlinegroup=0user-agent=W3C_Validator%2F1.654 http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.debian-admin.blogspot.comcharset=%28detect+automatically%29doctype=Inlinegroup=0user-agent=W3C_Validator%2F1.654 http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwiki.debian.org%2Fcharset=%28detect+automatically%29doctype=Inlinegroup=0user-agent=W3C_Validator%2F1.654 http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.debianadmin.comcharset=%28detect+automatically%29doctype=Inlinegroup=0user-agent=W3C_Validator%2F1.654 http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unix-tutorials.comcharset=%28detect+automatically%29doctype=Inlinegroup=0user-agent=W3C_Validator%2F1.654 http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aboutdebian.comcharset=%28detect+automatically%29doctype=Inlinegroup=0user-agent=W3C_Validator%2F1.654 http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.debianhelp.co.ukcharset=%28detect+automatically%29doctype=Inlinegroup=0user-agent=W3C_Validator%2F1.654 http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.discover.comcharset=%28detect+automatically%29doctype=Inlinegroup=0user-agent=W3C_Validator%2F1.654 http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.comcharset=%28detect+automatically%29doctype=Inlinegroup=0user-agent=W3C_Validator%2F1.654 http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.yahoo.comcharset=%28detect+automatically%29doctype=Inlinegroup=0user-agent=W3C_Validator%2F1.654 Honestly. My site lacks no credibility with those it's built to serve. Are you telling me that the discover.com website lacks credibility because it doesn't validate? Or yahoo.com? I'm laughing as I write thisOh my. - On Wed, 22 Apr 2009 21:42:04 +0200 a...@c2i.net wrote: On Wed, 22 Apr 2009 09:22:29 +0300, Dotan wrote in message 880dece00904212322r17423bees4ef602e95f033...@mail.gmail.com: debiantutorials.org is 4 years old, the blog aspect is new for new Debian users to write about their experiences. The site may have been available, but it was unknown until now. ... Thanks for all the input. I won't bother the list with this again. A good way to introduce the site to the list would be to answer questions with links to your site. Such as, when a user asks how to install MythTV on Debian, you could provide him with a link to the page of your site that explains how to do just that. ..http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://debiantutorials.org/ might help explain that site's credibility and its need to seek input and new blood. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 7:52 PM, Michael Pobega pob...@fuzzydev.org wrote: On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 05:45:43PM +0300, Andrei Popescu wrote: On Tue,21.Apr.09, 08:58:13, machiner wrote: Recently I set up a blog for a couple site members and one older fellow in particular is going gang-busters! I would like to expand the site to include any of you that can muster up an hour a week or so to write tutorials or articles germain to new or relatively new Linux (Debian) users. Machiner, thank you for your debian work in debiantutorials site. I would like to see every debian-user collaborating in wiki.debian.org, so we have a nice and update site where read everything about debian. It would be awesome seeing all the questions asked here (in this list) solved with a pointer to our wiki (this would mean there would be a team which extracts resume from the list and put conclusions in the wiki, but sure nobody has time for this). I'd rather not spread resources all over the net. If I'd have time to write new stuff I'd put it on wiki.debian.org (or help maintain existing content). I completely agree - I think one of the main problems with GNU/Linux documentation (and Debian in particular) is that it's so spread among different places; [0] the Debian Wiki (http://wiki.debian.org) [1] Debian Documentation (http://debian.org/doc/) [2] Debian Help (http://www.debianhelp.org/) [3] Debian Forums (recently deceased, http://forums.debian.net) [4] Debian Administration (http://www.debian-administration.org/) Do we really need another source of information? I would like to add another 'ideal/utopic' resource: www.debian.org/usr/share/doc/ or usr.share.doc.debian.org/ where you could find all docs from debian packages. It would be nice (I think) Regards, -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
Tue, 21 Apr 2009 08:42:02 -0400 RE: Hi, Some of you are familiar with my little tutorial site as I have seen references from some of you to articles on the site in my logs. (Thank you for the confidence) Recently I set up a blog for a couple site members and one older fellow in particular is going gang-busters! I would like to expand the site to include any of you that can muster up an hour a week or so to write tutorials or articles germain to new or relatively new Linux (Debian) users. I know you're busy. The focus is not on advanced Linux users, but people running Linux account for ~60% of visitors, so some intermediate tutorials are welcome. My site is totally free and I accept no advertising, nor will I. Nor will I pay for submissions. It just doesn't make any sense. Linux uptake is growing exponentially and I feel that Debian is the best Linux flavor for about everyone. I seek recommendations for improving the site as well as new authors, whether one article or many. Please consider it. The site does very well in the search engines and it could use some new blood. I would be thrilled, as would the site's readers, if one, or a bunch of you could submit something. All I ask is that your writings are original and helpful. Any topic related to Debian is fine. Thank you for your time and I'm sorry if any of you consider this spam. I just figured this was the best place to put feelers out. --machiner signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
I seek recommendations for improving the site 1) Under the site name there is not one, but _two_ corny taglines. Get rid of them until you find a single tagline that is witty and on topic. 2) Maybe I should have the site translated to Australian? What is that? Maybe you should, but I as a visitor am not interested. Why don't you translate to Hebrew, a language that I understand? In other words, list the languages that you do have translations for, and not those that are in Maybe status. And if this line was a joke, then it's not the place for jokes. 3) Remove the clock javascript. It gives nothing of value to the page. Either the user has a system clock, or he disabled it because he does not need it. 4) Signup/Login? Why? Give the user a reason to do that, clearly and in few words. 5) No privacy policy? I'm not signing up! 6) The images of the desktop logos should be links. 7) This site appears disheveled in Internet Explorer, horrible. That should probably read Internet Explorer renders this page incorrectly. Put the blame on IE where it belongs, not on your website. 8) Recent Windows Visitors What value does this give to the user? If the answer is close to 0, then get rid of it. 9) Just how bad is it? Just how bad is what? No, will not click to find out what. There is too much decption on the web as it is, I don't trust you. Give me _informative_ link text, not _speculative_ link text. Thank you for your time and I'm sorry if any of you consider this spam. I just figured this was the best place to put feelers out. While I do not consider this isolated message spam, I will consider it spam if this becomes a phenomenon. Let's not let that happen. I am serious, and I have access to automatic weapons. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
On Tue,21.Apr.09, 08:58:13, machiner wrote: Recently I set up a blog for a couple site members and one older fellow in particular is going gang-busters! I would like to expand the site to include any of you that can muster up an hour a week or so to write tutorials or articles germain to new or relatively new Linux (Debian) users. I'd rather not spread resources all over the net. If I'd have time to write new stuff I'd put it on wiki.debian.org (or help maintain existing content). Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
Reply to: andreimpope...@gmail.com Original Message Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 17:45:43 +0300 RE: Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood [See Original Message Below] Fair enough. Thank you for your reply. --machiner - On Tue, 21 Apr 2009 17:45:43 +0300 andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue,21.Apr.09, 08:58:13, machiner wrote: Recently I set up a blog for a couple site members and one older fellow in particular is going gang-busters! I would like to expand the site to include any of you that can muster up an hour a week or so to write tutorials or articles germain to new or relatively new Linux (Debian) users. I'd rather not spread resources all over the net. If I'd have time to write new stuff I'd put it on wiki.debian.org (or help maintain existing content). Regards, Andrei signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
In a way the OP is spamming the list, but really ... Is is etiquette to be so nasty about it? He is clearly a private citizen with a desire to comtribute. That his attempts fall short of your standards, merely indicates that his request is justified. I also find a dynamically changing clock a visual toxin. For me, the blinking of my cursor is enough animation on my computer screen. Concerns about his privacy policy really can't be addressed by insisting that he state it on his web site. How do we know he is not a manufactured entity designed by whisper Al Qaeda /whisper? Would a stated privacy policy protect you from the evil one? As that great urban philosopher, Rodney King, once said, Can't we all just get along? Peace. On 2009-04-21_16:22:09, Dotan Cohen wrote: I seek recommendations for improving the site 1) Under the site name there is not one, but _two_ corny taglines. Get rid of them until you find a single tagline that is witty and on topic. 2) Maybe I should have the site translated to Australian? What is that? Maybe you should, but I as a visitor am not interested. Why don't you translate to Hebrew, a language that I understand? In other words, list the languages that you do have translations for, and not those that are in Maybe status. And if this line was a joke, then it's not the place for jokes. 3) Remove the clock javascript. It gives nothing of value to the page. Either the user has a system clock, or he disabled it because he does not need it. 4) Signup/Login? Why? Give the user a reason to do that, clearly and in few words. 5) No privacy policy? I'm not signing up! 6) The images of the desktop logos should be links. 7) This site appears disheveled in Internet Explorer, horrible. That should probably read Internet Explorer renders this page incorrectly. Put the blame on IE where it belongs, not on your website. 8) Recent Windows Visitors What value does this give to the user? If the answer is close to 0, then get rid of it. 9) Just how bad is it? Just how bad is what? No, will not click to find out what. There is too much decption on the web as it is, I don't trust you. Give me _informative_ link text, not _speculative_ link text. Thank you for your time and I'm sorry if any of you consider this spam. ?? I just figured this was the best place to put feelers out. While I do not consider this isolated message spam, I will consider it spam if this becomes a phenomenon. Let's not let that happen. I am serious, and I have access to automatic weapons. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org -- Paul E Condon pecon...@mesanetworks.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
In a way the OP is spamming the list, but really ... Is is etiquette to be so nasty about it? No, it is not etiquette to be nasty. I was helpful and gave him my suggestions, and further refined ideas with the OP off list. But I do not want other list members to say hey, Brian got away with it so why not me too?. What you call nasty, I call stern. He is clearly a private citizen with a desire to comtribute. That his attempts fall short of your standards, merely indicates that his request is justified. Fall short of my standards? The OP asked for suggestions and I gave them. I was being critical only in the constructive sense. Concerns about his privacy policy really can't be addressed by insisting that he state it on his web site. How do we know he is not a manufactured entity designed by whisper Al Qaeda /whisper? Would a stated privacy policy protect you from the evil one? As that great urban philosopher, Rodney King, once said, Can't we all just get along? I did not insist. I let him know that it would prevent me from signing up. I do not trust that my information would not be abused or compromised anyway, but at least lie to me and tell me that the information is safe. Peace. I wish for it every day, my friend. You have no idea. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
On Tuesday 21 April 2009 13:58:13 machiner wrote: I seek recommendations for improving the site as well as new authors, whether one article or many. Please consider it. The site does very well in the search engines and it could use some new blood. I would be thrilled, as would the site's readers, if one, or a bunch of you could submit something. All I ask is that your writings are original and helpful. Any topic related to Debian is fine. If you are seeking help, it might be worth supplying a URL. The truth of your assertion that the site does well in teh search engines was certainly substantaiated, but I hnearly didn't bother. You have clearly put lot of effort in, and the result is quite impressive, but if and when I finally reach the stage of feeling that I have something of this nature to contribute, I like Andrei might prefer to post on the Debian official wiki. And I'm afraid that I do agree with some other respondees that I dislike all animation. My cursor flashing I am at least accustomed to, but my reaction to other flashing things is to try and turn them off, and I tend to go away if I can't, and my reaction to requests that I should register, is in general to run a mile. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 05:45:43PM +0300, Andrei Popescu wrote: On Tue,21.Apr.09, 08:58:13, machiner wrote: Recently I set up a blog for a couple site members and one older fellow in particular is going gang-busters! I would like to expand the site to include any of you that can muster up an hour a week or so to write tutorials or articles germain to new or relatively new Linux (Debian) users. I'd rather not spread resources all over the net. If I'd have time to write new stuff I'd put it on wiki.debian.org (or help maintain existing content). I completely agree - I think one of the main problems with GNU/Linux documentation (and Debian in particular) is that it's so spread among different places; [0] the Debian Wiki (http://wiki.debian.org) [1] Debian Documentation (http://debian.org/doc/) [2] Debian Help (http://www.debianhelp.org/) [3] Debian Forums (recently deceased, http://forums.debian.net) [4] Debian Administration (http://www.debian-administration.org/) Do we really need another source of information? -- http://fuzzydev.org/~pobega http://identi.ca/pobega -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 01:52:05PM EDT, Michael Pobega wrote: On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 05:45:43PM +0300, Andrei Popescu wrote: On Tue,21.Apr.09, 08:58:13, machiner wrote: Recently I set up a blog for a couple site members and one older fellow in particular is going gang-busters! I would like to expand the site to include any of you that can muster up an hour a week or so to write tutorials or articles germain to new or relatively new Linux (Debian) users. No such word in the English language. You mean germane. I'd rather not spread resources all over the net. If I'd have time to write new stuff I'd put it on wiki.debian.org (or help maintain existing content). I completely agree - I think one of the main problems with GNU/Linux documentation (and Debian in particular) is that it's so spread among different places; [0] the Debian Wiki (http://wiki.debian.org) [1] Debian Documentation (http://debian.org/doc/) [2] Debian Help (http://www.debianhelp.org/) [3] Debian Forums (recently deceased, http://forums.debian.net) [4] Debian Administration (http://www.debian-administration.org/) Do we really need another source of information? No we don't. Far too many already. If [1] above says white and [2] says light-gray, who is the lowly user to trust...? None. CJ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
Reply to: cjns1...@gmail.com Original Message Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 19:45:33 -0400 RE: Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood [See Original Message Below] - On Tue, 21 Apr 2009 19:45:33 -0400 cjns1...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 01:52:05PM EDT, Michael Pobega wrote: On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 05:45:43PM +0300, Andrei Popescu wrote: On Tue,21.Apr.09, 08:58:13, machiner wrote: Recently I set up a blog for a couple site members and one older fellow in particular is going gang-busters! I would like to expand the site to include any of you that can muster up an hour a week or so to write tutorials or articles germain to new or relatively new Linux (Debian) users. debiantutorials.org is 4 years old, the blog aspect is new for new Debian users to write about their experiences. No such word in the English language. You mean germane. D'oh! Yes, I do. I'd rather not spread resources all over the net. If I'd have time to write new stuff I'd put it on wiki.debian.org (or help maintain existing content). I completely agree - I think one of the main problems with GNU/Linux documentation (and Debian in particular) is that it's so spread among different places; [0] the Debian Wiki (http://wiki.debian.org) [1] Debian Documentation (http://debian.org/doc/) [2] Debian Help (http://www.debianhelp.org/) [3] Debian Forums (recently deceased, http://forums.debian.net) [4] Debian Administration (http://www.debian-administration.org/) Do we really need another source of information? No we don't. Far too many already. If [1] above says white and [2] says light-gray, who is the lowly user to trust...? None. CJ I'm hearing a lot that the web is already saturated with Debian documentation, and you may be right. There are many, many sites out there with related information. Mine, too. However my site is completely different than all of them. It's very easy to see, as well. Where else but here to ask for assistance? I don't know, but to be honest I didn't expect such a negative reaction. Thanks for all the input. I won't bother the list with this again. Happy Computing --machiner signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 08:24:59PM EDT, machiner wrote: Reply to: cjns1...@gmail.com Original Message Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 19:45:33 -0400 RE: Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood [See Original Message Below] On Tue, 21 Apr 2009 19:45:33 -0400 cjns1...@gmail.com wrote: [..] You mean germane. D'oh! Yes, I do. Nice to see you have a sense of humor. [..] Where else but here to ask for assistance? I don't know, but to be honest I didn't expect such a negative reaction. Sign of the times... Thanks for all the input. I won't bother the list with this again. Certainly didn't bother me... -- CJ Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens. Friedrich Schiller, Die Jungfrau von Orléans. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
Lisi Reisz wrote: If you are seeking help, it might be worth supplying a URL. The truth of your Isn't that in the subject line? Or am I missing something here? -- Please reply to this list only. I read this list on its corresponding newsgroup on gmane.org. Replies sent to my email address are just filtered to a folder in my mailbox and get periodically deleted without ever having been read. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: debiantutorials.org seeks input and new blood
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 20:01, H.S. hs.sa...@gmail.com wrote: Lisi Reisz wrote: If you are seeking help, it might be worth supplying a URL. The truth of your Isn't that in the subject line? Or am I missing something here? In gmail in particular, it can be easy to miss the subject line once you click it to see the conversation. I know I saw the url in the subject, then read the email and decided to view the site and for a moment could not find the url, although I knew I had seen it somewhere. Cheers, Kelly Clowers -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
