Re: diskless box: fanless too ?
On Tue, May 04, 1999 at 07:09:39PM -0500, John Hasler wrote: G. Crimp writes: What about application/utility compatibility ? I often heard a few years back, when the alphs port was the only other Linux, that it worked fine, but there were not as many goodies to run on it. If I suggest a strongarm cpu to this person, how limited is he going to be ? Use the netwinder as an X terminal for a pc in another room. Or use an NCD xterm or similar. Hamish -- Hamish Moffatt VK3SB (ex-VK3TYD). CCs of replies from mailing lists are welcome.
Re: diskless box: fanless too ?
On Mon, May 03, 1999 at 06:21:53PM -0500, Jens B. Jorgensen wrote: I would think you could do it if you used once of those heat sinks which have a peltier junction on the bottom. I don't know if anyone's tried this of course but I do know such heat sinks exist (I saw and felt one a Comdex last year and boy was it cold!) Peltiers use lots of power. You mightn't need a CPU fan but you will certainly need a power supply fan if you use one. Hamish -- Hamish Moffatt VK3SB (ex-VK3TYD). CCs of replies from mailing lists are welcome.
Re: diskless box: fanless too ?
G. Crimp writes: What about application/utility compatibility ? I often heard a few years back, when the alphs port was the only other Linux, that it worked fine, but there were not as many goodies to run on it. If I suggest a strongarm cpu to this person, how limited is he going to be ? Use the netwinder as an X terminal for a pc in another room. -- John HaslerThis posting is in the public domain. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Do with it what you will. Dancing Horse Hill Make money from it if you can; I don't mind. Elmwood, Wisconsin Do not send email advertisements to this address.
Re: diskless box: fanless too ?
On Tue, 4 May 1999, John C. Ellingboe wrote: Michael Stenner wrote: I disagree that the cpu would need a fan - I used to run a very old P60 (a REALLY hot chip) without a fan (fan kept breaking...) and it was toasty but caused no problems. If you choose a cpu that runs cool, you should be OK. You can also look into thermoelectric (or Peltier) coolers -- no moving parts. You still have to get the heat (cpu + Peltier device) out of the box. Even though the cpu will be cool, when using a Pelier device the box will become quite toasty. One of the heat pipe devices would be a better choice. There you would have a heatsink plate mounted on the cpu and a tube running out side the case to a heatsink. Admittedly, I may not be as cautious as I should be about these things, but it doesn't seem to me that the box would necessarily get dangerously hot. When I was doing it, I left the box open, but as I said, that was a VERY hot chip. I've never heard of a heat pipe, but that sounds quite nice. I'm a little confused: is it a true pipe (i.e. with air inside) that relies on convection? or is it something like a copper rod? I must also say that the suggestions about controlling the Peltier cooler are quite good. You can buy a ready-made device for cheap. -Michael Michael Stenner Office Phone: 919-660-2513 Duke University, Dept. of Physics [EMAIL PROTECTED] Box 90305, Durham N.C. 27708-0305
Re: diskless box: fanless too ?
Dean Carpenter's Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] on 05/05/99 09:07:00 AM AFAICR, a heat pipe is a sealed pipe/tube, with a convection fluid inside. It's not just a simple tube, but does have some structure within. Apply heat to one end, and natural convection causes the fluid to circulate, moving the heat to the other end. I remember seeing a 1 meter heat pipe at school in Sydney Aust. way back when. We took turns feeling one end while the teacher lit a match at the other end. It only took a few seconds to feel our end get warm, then hot. Pretty cool :) -Forwarded From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]@INTERNET To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]@INTERNET cc: debian-user@lists.debian.org@INTERNET Subject: Re: diskless box: fanless too ? On Tue, 4 May 1999, John C. Ellingboe wrote: Michael Stenner wrote: I disagree that the cpu would need a fan - I used to run a very old P60 (a REALLY hot chip) without a fan (fan kept breaking...) and it was toasty but caused no problems. If you choose a cpu that runs cool, you should be OK. You can also look into thermoelectric (or Peltier) coolers -- no moving parts. You still have to get the heat (cpu + Peltier device) out of the box. Even though the cpu will be cool, when using a Pelier device the box will become quite toasty. One of the heat pipe devices would be a better choice. There you would have a heatsink plate mounted on the cpu and a tube running out side the case to a heatsink. Admittedly, I may not be as cautious as I should be about these things, but it doesn't seem to me that the box would necessarily get dangerously hot. When I was doing it, I left the box open, but as I said, that was a VERY hot chip. I've never heard of a heat pipe, but that sounds quite nice. I'm a little confused: is it a true pipe (i.e. with air inside) that relies on convection? or is it something like a copper rod? I must also say that the suggestions about controlling the Peltier cooler are quite good. You can buy a ready-made device for cheap.
Re: diskless box: fanless too ?
Michael Stenner wrote: On Tue, 4 May 1999, John C. Ellingboe wrote: Michael Stenner wrote: I disagree that the cpu would need a fan - I used to run a very old P60 (a REALLY hot chip) without a fan (fan kept breaking...) and it was toasty but caused no problems. If you choose a cpu that runs cool, you should be OK. You can also look into thermoelectric (or Peltier) coolers -- no moving parts. You still have to get the heat (cpu + Peltier device) out of the box. Even though the cpu will be cool, when using a Pelier device the box will become quite toasty. One of the heat pipe devices would be a better choice. There you would have a heatsink plate mounted on the cpu and a tube running out side the case to a heatsink. Admittedly, I may not be as cautious as I should be about these things, but it doesn't seem to me that the box would necessarily get dangerously hot. When I was doing it, I left the box open, but as I said, that was a VERY hot chip. I've never heard of a heat pipe, but that sounds quite nice. I'm a little confused: is it a true pipe (i.e. with air inside) that relies on convection? or is it something like a copper rod? The heat pipe works similar to a refrigeration system in that a refrigerant is evaporated by the heat on one end and condensed on the other end by an appropriate radiator. A wick type material in the tube returns the liquid back to the warm end even if it is above the cold end. I am sure that the heat sink above the heat source would be more efficient though. I ran across articles on them in some of the electronics engineering trade magazines several years ago. Try Electronics Design, Electronics Design News or something similar. There is also some electronic component rags out there some where that may list them, but I don't remember any names. I must also say that the suggestions about controlling the Peltier cooler are quite good. You can buy a ready-made device for cheap. -Michael Michael Stenner Office Phone: 919-660-2513 Duke University, Dept. of Physics [EMAIL PROTECTED] Box 90305, Durham N.C. 27708-0305 John C. Ellingboe www.guntersville.netbegin: vcard fn: John C. Ellingboe - KE4BPW n: Ellingboe - KE4BPW;John C. org:The Guntersville Computer Center email;internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED] title: Owner/Admin x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE version:2.1 end:vcard
Re: diskless box: fanless too ?
I have been asked to help someone learn about Linux. So far, I have installed Linux on an existing box. I must also give advice on new hardware. One of the concerns this person has, is not having anything spinning in his office. He currently uses a diskless sparc station, which is apparently also fanless since it is very very quiet. Does anyone know if the same is possible in the ix86 architechture ? I know I could set him up with a diskless box booting off a server in another room, but could that diskless box also have a fanless powersupply ? I figure the cpu would still need its fan. Anyone think that the absence of a fan in a diskless box would cause heating problems ?? Would caution against it in anything more than a 486.
Re: diskless box: fanless too ?
I would think you could do it if you used once of those heat sinks which have a peltier junction on the bottom. I don't know if anyone's tried this of course but I do know such heat sinks exist (I saw and felt one a Comdex last year and boy was it cold!) G. Crimp wrote: I have been asked to help someone learn about Linux. So far, I have installed Linux on an existing box. I must also give advice on new hardware. One of the concerns this person has, is not having anything spinning in his office. He currently uses a diskless sparc station, which is apparently also fanless since it is very very quiet. Does anyone know if the same is possible in the ix86 architechture ? I know I could set him up with a diskless box booting off a server in another room, but could that diskless box also have a fanless powersupply ? I figure the cpu would still need its fan. Anyone think that the absence of a fan in a diskless box would cause heating problems ?? Thanks, Gerald -- Unsubscribe? mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] /dev/null -- Jens B. Jorgensen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: diskless box: fanless too ?
On Mon, 3 May 1999, G. Crimp wrote: I have been asked to help someone learn about Linux. So far, I have installed Linux on an existing box. I must also give advice on new hardware. One of the concerns this person has, is not having anything spinning in his office. He currently uses a diskless sparc station, which is apparently also fanless since it is very very quiet. Does anyone know if the same is possible in the ix86 architechture ? I know I could set him up with a diskless box booting off a server in another room, but could that diskless box also have a fanless powersupply ? I figure the cpu would still need its fan. Anyone think that the absence of a fan in a diskless box would cause heating problems ?? Thinking about what the power supply would need to power, if there were no moving parts at all, it would just have to feed the mb, chip and cards. That's not tiny, but better than 2 HDs, a CDROM, and a Floppy (you could still probably use the cdrom and floppy since they are typically used occasionally) Were you looking to find a special power supply that didn't have a fan? or were you planning on breaking a standard power supply? I disagree that the cpu would need a fan - I used to run a very old P60 (a REALLY hot chip) without a fan (fan kept breaking...) and it was toasty but caused no problems. If you choose a cpu that runs cool, you should be OK. You can also look into thermoelectric (or Peltier) coolers -- no moving parts. I think with an hour or so of reasearch you should have no trouble with a reasonable setup. -Michael P.S. I have a Dual PII 400 with something like 4 fans (not counting CPU fans) next to my desk. Sounds like a jet engine... I'm sympathetic Then again, how much can you complain about a Dual PII 400? Michael Stenner Office Phone: 919-660-2513 Duke University, Dept. of Physics [EMAIL PROTECTED] Box 90305, Durham N.C. 27708-0305
Re: diskless box: fanless too ?
*- On 3 May, G. Crimp wrote about diskless box: fanless too ? I have been asked to help someone learn about Linux. So far, I have installed Linux on an existing box. I must also give advice on new hardware. One of the concerns this person has, is not having anything spinning in his office. He currently uses a diskless sparc station, which is apparently also fanless since it is very very quiet. Does anyone know if the same is possible in the ix86 architechture ? I know I could set him up with a diskless box booting off a server in another room, but could that diskless box also have a fanless powersupply ? I figure the cpu would still need its fan. Anyone think that the absence of a fan in a diskless box would cause heating problems ?? How about a laptop with a docking station or port replicator? Those thing tend to be pretty silent. Also there is a thread on this topic in the comp.os.linux.hardware news group over the last couple of days on this very subject titled removing cooling fans--how dangerous?. -- Brian - Mechanical Engineering [EMAIL PROTECTED] Purdue University http://www.ecn.purdue.edu/~servis -
Re: diskless box: fanless too ?
*- On 3 May, Jens B. Jorgensen wrote about Re: diskless box: fanless too ? I would think you could do it if you used once of those heat sinks which have a peltier junction on the bottom. I don't know if anyone's tried this of course but I do know such heat sinks exist (I saw and felt one a Comdex last year and boy was it cold!) It is my understanding that you need a fan on a peltier junction otherwise it makes a better heater than a cooler. Especially in a closed environment like a computer case. G. Crimp wrote: I have been asked to help someone learn about Linux. So far, I have installed Linux on an existing box. I must also give advice on new hardware. One of the concerns this person has, is not having anything spinning in his office. He currently uses a diskless sparc station, which is apparently also fanless since it is very very quiet. Does anyone know if the same is possible in the ix86 architechture ? I know I could set him up with a diskless box booting off a server in another room, but could that diskless box also have a fanless powersupply ? I figure the cpu would still need its fan. Anyone think that the absence of a fan in a diskless box would cause heating problems ?? Thanks, Gerald -- Unsubscribe? mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] /dev/null -- Jens B. Jorgensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Brian - Mechanical Engineering [EMAIL PROTECTED] Purdue University http://www.ecn.purdue.edu/~servis -
Re: diskless box: fanless too ?
I've ran a few of these. 1) AFAIK you require a fan in a closed case 2) Watch out for condensation a) Can short the junction b) Has dissolved the adhesive on me more than once. I ran a K6/225 for a month with the fan fallen off, before it started sig11-ing and I checked inside. I'm still running that CPU too. It's my one Windows /Linux/USB machine. I was running a junction on a 486SX/16 clocked up to 40 for about a year, until I got my hands on a Cyrix DX2/80, which is running my firewall for now. On Mon, 3 May 1999, Brian Servis wrote: *- On 3 May, Jens B. Jorgensen wrote about Re: diskless box: fanless too ? I would think you could do it if you used once of those heat sinks which have a peltier junction on the bottom. I don't know if anyone's tried this of course but I do know such heat sinks exist (I saw and felt one a Comdex last year and boy was it cold!) It is my understanding that you need a fan on a peltier junction otherwise it makes a better heater than a cooler. Especially in a closed environment like a computer case. [snip]
Re: diskless box: fanless too ?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've ran a few of these. 1) AFAIK you require a fan in a closed case 2) Watch out for condensation a) Can short the junction b) Has dissolved the adhesive on me more than once. I ran a K6/225 for a month with the fan fallen off, before it started sig11-ing and I checked inside. I'm still running that CPU too. It's my one Windows /Linux/USB machine. Condensation is one thing I noticed immediately when I saw the one at comdex. It was dripping with it. I figured though that if you had a temperature sensor which would control it, turning it on and off, then this wouldn't be a problem since you don't need to get the processor cold, just keep it not too hot. (Ok, keeping it cold *would* be best but the thought of dripping water inside my case makes me very nervous.) I was running a junction on a 486SX/16 clocked up to 40 for about a year, until I got my hands on a Cyrix DX2/80, which is running my firewall for now. On Mon, 3 May 1999, Brian Servis wrote: *- On 3 May, Jens B. Jorgensen wrote about Re: diskless box: fanless too ? I would think you could do it if you used once of those heat sinks which have a peltier junction on the bottom. I don't know if anyone's tried this of course but I do know such heat sinks exist (I saw and felt one a Comdex last year and boy was it cold!) It is my understanding that you need a fan on a peltier junction otherwise it makes a better heater than a cooler. Especially in a closed environment like a computer case. [snip] -- Jens B. Jorgensen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: diskless box: fanless too ?
On Mon, May 03, 1999 at 04:08:47PM -0700, George Bonser wrote: On Mon, 3 May 1999, G. Crimp wrote: Does anyone know if the same is possible in the ix86 architechture ? I know I could set him up with a diskless box booting off a server in another room, but could that diskless box also have a fanless powersupply ? I figure the cpu would still need its fan. Anyone think that the absence of a fan in a diskless box would cause heating problems ?? Not sure about ix86 but a netwinder might work ... they draw only 15 watts. I would think that even if they have a fan, it could be disconnected. Would be interesting getting to to boot over the net but should't be impossible. This raises two questions in my mind, if you have the patience to deal with them. 1) What about application/utility compatibility ? I often heard a few years back, when the alphs port was the only other Linux, that it worked fine, but there were not as many goodies to run on it. If I suggest a strongarm cpu to this person, how limited is he going to be ? I don't know why stuff can't simply be recompiled for a new architecture, I jus tknow it can't. 2) In the I don't know why, it just is department, why would this be any more difficult to boot over the network than an ix86 ? Simply because no one has taken the time to write the code ? Or, as your statement above leads me to suspect, because something in the Arm architecture makes this an exercise in binary gymnastics ? Thanks for the info, Gerald
Re: diskless box: fanless too ?
On Mon, May 03, 1999 at 06:21:53PM -0500, Jens B. Jorgensen wrote: I would think you could do it if you used once of those heat sinks which have a peltier junction on the bottom. I don't know if anyone's tried this of course but I do know such heat sinks exist (I saw and felt one a Comdex last year and boy was it cold!) Isn't this risky ? I don't know exactly what you are talking about, but it sounds very similar to what I saw a wholesalesman bring into a computer store and demo: small cpu fan the contact side of which got VERY cold as soon as it was given power. A few seconds after that, it also became thouroughly covered in condensation. I'm not sure I would feel comfortable having an active rain cloud inside my box next to all those sensitive electronic components. Are we talkinga aboput the same thing ? Gerald
Re: diskless box: fanless too ?
On Mon, May 03, 1999 at 09:22:53PM -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've ran a few of these. 1) AFAIK you require a fan in a closed case 2) Watch out for condensation a) Can short the junction b) Has dissolved the adhesive on me more than once. I ran a K6/225 for a month with the fan fallen off, before it started sig11-ing and I checked inside. I'm still running that CPU too. It's my one Windows /Linux/USB machine. I was running a junction on a 486SX/16 clocked up to 40 for about a year, until I got my hands on a Cyrix DX2/80, which is running my firewall for now. No condensation ?
Re: diskless box: fanless too ?
Michael Stenner wrote: On Mon, 3 May 1999, G. Crimp wrote: I have been asked to help someone learn about Linux. So far, I have installed Linux on an existing box. I must also give advice on new hardware. One of the concerns this person has, is not having anything spinning in his office. He currently uses a diskless sparc station, which is apparently also fanless since it is very very quiet. Does anyone know if the same is possible in the ix86 architechture ? I know I could set him up with a diskless box booting off a server in another room, but could that diskless box also have a fanless powersupply ? I figure the cpu would still need its fan. Anyone think that the absence of a fan in a diskless box would cause heating problems ?? Thinking about what the power supply would need to power, if there were no moving parts at all, it would just have to feed the mb, chip and cards. That's not tiny, but better than 2 HDs, a CDROM, and a Floppy (you could still probably use the cdrom and floppy since they are typically used occasionally) Were you looking to find a special power supply that didn't have a fan? or were you planning on breaking a standard power supply? I disagree that the cpu would need a fan - I used to run a very old P60 (a REALLY hot chip) without a fan (fan kept breaking...) and it was toasty but caused no problems. If you choose a cpu that runs cool, you should be OK. You can also look into thermoelectric (or Peltier) coolers -- no moving parts. You still have to get the heat (cpu + Peltier device) out of the box. Even though the cpu will be cool, when using a Pelier device the box will become quite toasty. One of the heat pipe devices would be a better choice. There you would have a heatsink plate mounted on the cpu and a tube running out side the case to a heatsink. I think with an hour or so of reasearch you should have no trouble with a reasonable setup. -Michael P.S. I have a Dual PII 400 with something like 4 fans (not counting CPU fans) next to my desk. Sounds like a jet engine... I'm sympathetic Then again, how much can you complain about a Dual PII 400? Michael Stenner Office Phone: 919-660-2513 Duke University, Dept. of Physics [EMAIL PROTECTED] Box 90305, Durham N.C. 27708-0305 John C. Ellingboe www.guntersville.netbegin: vcard fn: John C. Ellingboe - KE4BPW n: Ellingboe - KE4BPW;John C. org:The Guntersville Computer Center email;internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED] title: Owner/Admin x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE version:2.1 end:vcard
Re: diskless box: fanless too ?
G. Crimp wrote: On Mon, May 03, 1999 at 06:21:53PM -0500, Jens B. Jorgensen wrote: I would think you could do it if you used once of those heat sinks which have a peltier junction on the bottom. I don't know if anyone's tried this of course but I do know such heat sinks exist (I saw and felt one a Comdex last year and boy was it cold!) Isn't this risky ? I don't know exactly what you are talking about, but it sounds very similar to what I saw a wholesalesman bring into a computer store and demo: small cpu fan the contact side of which got VERY cold as soon as it was given power. A few seconds after that, it also became thouroughly covered in condensation. I'm not sure I would feel comfortable having an active rain cloud inside my box next to all those sensitive electronic components. Are we talkinga aboput the same thing ? I believe we are. Read on to my further comments about a temperature sensor/control to turn the thing off before the thing actually gets cold (thus avoiding condensation). -- Jens B. Jorgensen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
diskless box: fanless too ?
I have been asked to help someone learn about Linux. So far, I have installed Linux on an existing box. I must also give advice on new hardware. One of the concerns this person has, is not having anything spinning in his office. He currently uses a diskless sparc station, which is apparently also fanless since it is very very quiet. Does anyone know if the same is possible in the ix86 architechture ? I know I could set him up with a diskless box booting off a server in another room, but could that diskless box also have a fanless powersupply ? I figure the cpu would still need its fan. Anyone think that the absence of a fan in a diskless box would cause heating problems ?? Thanks, Gerald
