subject:"hardware..."

On Saturday, 4 July 2020 04:08:25 CEST Kenneth Parker wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 1:49 PM Jude DaShiell  wrote:
> > Debian with xfce or mate or cinnamon may install and run well.  I don't
> > recommend gnome.
> 
> +1
> 
> Funny story:  A few years ago, I installed a Text-only Minimal Ubuntu
> system and then made one of the worst single commands in my career:
> "apt-get install gnome".  What made it so bad was that, based on the
> sequence of previous commands, the fact that it was Ubuntu, and my Install
> Options, I ended up with Gnome Files for every Locale in the World!  It
> took a while to clean this up!
> 
> > On Fri, 3 Jul 2020, Davide Lombardo wrote:
> > > Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 13:17:33
> > > From: Davide Lombardo 
> > > To: Debian-user List Debian 
> > > Subject: Very old hardware...
> > > 
> > > Good evening Debian User, I have found an old PC with these specs:
> > > CPU: Pentium III 700 Mhz;
> > > DRAM: 64 MB SDDR
> > > GPU: RIVA TNT-2
> > > HARDISK: 10 GB
> > > FLOPPY DISK DRIVE
> > > MODEM 56K
> > > In the receipt is written 3,000 Lire (1,500) Euro of today...
> > > Do you think I can install something different than the already
> > > installed
> > > WIN98 system ?
> 
> Brings back memories.  That was the last one I could bring up, in command
> mode, with the command "win" bringing up the Windows Infrastructure.  I
> tried to do that with Windows ME and was never successful.
> 
> Suggestion:  Don't throw anything away:  I think there are YouTube Videos,
> about running Linux on Floppy Disks.
> 
> Kenneth Parker
Thanks, the computer has a dvd burner I forgot to put it in the list


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Re: Very old hardware...

On Friday, 3 July 2020 20:01:50 CEST Christian Groessler wrote:
> 3000 Lire?
> 
> Did you mean 3.000,000 Lire?
> 
> regards,
> chris
> 
> On 2020-07-03 19:17, Davide Lombardo wrote:
> > Good evening Debian User, I have found an old PC with these specs:
> > CPU: Pentium III 700 Mhz;
> > DRAM: 64 MB SDDR
> > GPU: RIVA TNT-2
> > HARDISK: 10 GB
> > FLOPPY DISK DRIVE
> > MODEM 56K
> > In the receipt is written 3,000 Lire (1,500) Euro of today...
> > Do you think I can install something different than the already installed
> > WIN98 system ?
Yes 


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Re: Computer Museum (was Re: Very old hardware...)

2020-07-04 Thread Ralph Katz

On 7/3/20 5:40 PM, Kenneth Parker wrote:
> This is, actually something I would like to do.  Anyone know of good
> Computer Museums in areas they've been in?  (I remember a good one,
> South of San Francisco, but that's on the other side of the Country from
> North Carolina).
> 
> I have a couple that I REALLY want to make work, in a Museum
> Environment:  A G3 Apple iBook, with the last Dual Boot to Apple's OS-9
> (with OS X Jaguar on the other side.  Look THAT up!).  I also have an
> Apple G4 iMac "Desk Lamp", where the Disk Drive gave out.  (And it had
> the Archive of my Classical Music CD Collection).  To get, at least a
> *little* back on Topic, I successfully booted an old Debian DVD on the
> iMac (which, by the way, last ran OS X Panther).  Unfortunately, it had
> trouble with the Graphics.  But, with the knowledge from these last
> couple years, I'm sure I can find Firmware and Drivers that could work.
> 
> Yes, in the olden days, I liked Apple.  Then, they dropped Power PC and
> I was Livid!  (What's the best protection, from Windows Viruses?  How
> about a totally different CPU Architecture, where the Virus can't get
> anywhere.
> 
> Anyway, I am, right now, experiencing why Debian is so much better for
> Computer Experts than Ubuntu or, Especially Mint.  (The Mint Install
> only works from its Live DVD, which I am running on XFCE, on a Lenovo
> Ideapad 320.  What could possibly go wrong?)  So, for anyone who is
> looking for Debian-like Alternatives, I give Thumbs Down on Mint 20, but
> *do* have a message in their Forum.
> 
> But back to the Computer Museum, anyone else experience those?
> 
> Thanks for being patient with me.
> 
> Kenneth Parker

[snip]

List of computer museums

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_computer_museums

I was familiar with Boston's Computer Museum long ago, now part of The
Computer History Museum in California.  See wikipedia link above.

Good luck Kenneth.

Regards,
Ralph

Re: Very old hardware...

On Friday, 3 July 2020 22:57:06 CEST Charles Curley wrote:
> On Fri, 03 Jul 2020 19:17:33 +0200
> 
> Davide Lombardo  wrote:
> > Good evening Debian User, I have found an old PC with these specs:
> > CPU: Pentium III 700 Mhz;
> 
> It might be useful to identify the manufacturer of the computer or
> motherboard, and search the Internet for documentation.
> 
> You may want to add a network card and as much memory as you can stuff
> into it.
> 
> For installing, maybe a (temporary?) CD-ROM drive.
> 
> I would use the netboot installation disk. Get a minimal console only
> installation going, update/upgrade as appropriate. Then add a GUI.
> At that point, tasksel is your friend.

Oh I forgot to list the dvd driver the PC is an Acer Aspire 8400, yeah at 
least would be good if I can add more RAM


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Re: Very old hardware...

2020-07-04 Thread 0...@caiway.net

On Fri, 03 Jul 2020 19:17:33 +0200
Davide Lombardo  wrote:

> Good evening Debian User, I have found an old PC with these specs:
> CPU: Pentium III 700 Mhz;
> DRAM: 64 MB SDDR 
> GPU: RIVA TNT-2
> HARDISK: 10 GB
> FLOPPY DISK DRIVE
> MODEM 56K
> In the receipt is written 3,000 Lire (1,500) Euro of today...
> Do you think I can install something different than the already
> installed WIN98 system ?

You could try some of those old floppy distros:

https://linuxmuseum.freedombox.rocks/FloppyDistros/

I don't think they have an installer to harddisk

Re: Very old hardware...

2020-07-04 Thread deloptes

Davide Lombardo wrote:

> Maybe I can just setup this PC as a Tor's Relay

Perhaps you did not understand correctly. The old 386 architecture is not
likely to be supported by recent kernels. The power consumptioned to
processing power ratio is below reasonable value.
It is not likely it makes sense to use it in any meaningful way.

The thing is that those old PC had more pressious metals in them or you can
donate it to the museum.

As mentioned by Michael Stone a 35-50$ Rpi 3 or 4 will be much more
efficient. I would add any used or refurbished PC in that range too.

regards

Re: Very old hardware...

On Friday, 3 July 2020 20:58:52 CEST Michael Stone wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 03, 2020 at 07:17:33PM +0200, Davide Lombardo wrote:
> >Good evening Debian User, I have found an old PC with these specs:
> >CPU: Pentium III 700 Mhz;
> >DRAM: 64 MB SDDR
> >GPU: RIVA TNT-2
> >HARDISK: 10 GB
> >FLOPPY DISK DRIVE
> >MODEM 56K
> >In the receipt is written 3,000 Lire (1,500) Euro of today...
> >Do you think I can install something different than the already installed
> >WIN98 system ?
> 
> If the goal is just to experiment then you could run an older version of
> debian. (I think there's not enough memory for the current install
> routine.) OpenBSD or NetBSD or a linux distribution oriented toward
> small systems would run. Nothing will give you a good experience with a
> GUI and web browser on that hardware. For practical purposes, you'd be
> better off with a $35 raspberry PI.

Maybe I can just setup this PC as a Tor's Relay 


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Re: Very old hardware...

2020-07-04 Thread deloptes

Michael Stone wrote:

> If the goal is just to experiment then you could run an older version of
> debian. (I think there's not enough memory for the current install
> routine.) OpenBSD or NetBSD or a linux distribution oriented toward
> small systems would run. Nothing will give you a good experience with a
> GUI and web browser on that hardware. For practical purposes, you'd be
> better off with a $35 raspberry PI.

I was also thinking of this. It is so old, that it is not worth the
electricity it consumes.

Re: Very old hardware...

2020-07-04 Thread songbird

David Christensen wrote:
> On 2020-07-03 11:08, Gene Heskett wrote:
>> On Friday 03 July 2020 13:17:33 Davide Lombardo wrote:
>> 
>>> Good evening Debian User, I have found an old PC with these specs:
>
>> Donate it to the curbside pickup.
>
> +1
>
>
> On 2020-07-03 11:58, Michael Stone wrote:
> > For practical purposes, you'd be better off with a $35 raspberry PI.
>
> +1
>
>
>
> On 2020-07-03 12:30, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> > The ratio of power consumption to
> > computing power is like with an old 100 W light bulb.
>
> +1

  agreed with all those too.

  much easier to work with more memory and more recent
processor/graphics.

  give it to the recycler and move on.

  i finally gave up a closet full of old hardware and a
huge monitor that was taking up so much space on my desk
that weighed about 70lbs.  replaced it with a monitor i
can pick up with two fingers and it consumes a lot less
electricity.  for the amount of electricity you burn 
using older tech you might pay for the newer technology
in a few years just in electricity charges alone.

  i did reuse an old Dell PC case for this new hardware
but that's about all i could use.

  songbird

Re: Computer Museum (was Re: Very old hardware...)

2020-07-04 Thread Richard Owlett


On 07/03/2020 06:40 PM, Kenneth Parker wrote:

This is, actually something I would like to do.  Anyone know of good
Computer Museums in areas they've been in?  (I remember a good one, South
of San Francisco, but that's on the other side of the Country from North
Carolina).



I don't know of a computer museum but I can suggest possible contacts.

The first thing that came to mind was "The Antique Wireless Museum" near 
Rochester, N.Y. [https://antiquewireless.org/homepage/]
I visited a precursor of the museum as a teenager ~60 years ago. It 
obviously made an impression.


Also consider a local museum or historical society for guidance.

HTH

Re: Very old hardware...

2020-07-03 Thread David Christensen


On 2020-07-03 11:08, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Friday 03 July 2020 13:17:33 Davide Lombardo wrote:


Good evening Debian User, I have found an old PC with these specs:



Donate it to the curbside pickup.


+1


On 2020-07-03 11:58, Michael Stone wrote:
> For practical purposes, you'd be better off with a $35 raspberry PI.

+1



On 2020-07-03 12:30, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> The ratio of power consumption to
> computing power is like with an old 100 W light bulb.

+1


David

Re: Very old hardware...

2020-07-03 Thread Kenneth Parker

On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 1:49 PM Jude DaShiell  wrote:

> Debian with xfce or mate or cinnamon may install and run well.  I don't
> recommend gnome.
>

+1

Funny story:  A few years ago, I installed a Text-only Minimal Ubuntu
system and then made one of the worst single commands in my career:
"apt-get install gnome".  What made it so bad was that, based on the
sequence of previous commands, the fact that it was Ubuntu, and my Install
Options, I ended up with Gnome Files for every Locale in the World!  It
took a while to clean this up!

> On Fri, 3 Jul 2020, Davide Lombardo wrote:
>
> > Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 13:17:33
> > From: Davide Lombardo 
> > To: Debian-user List Debian 
> > Subject: Very old hardware...
> >
> > Good evening Debian User, I have found an old PC with these specs:
> > CPU: Pentium III 700 Mhz;
> > DRAM: 64 MB SDDR
> > GPU: RIVA TNT-2
> > HARDISK: 10 GB
> > FLOPPY DISK DRIVE
> > MODEM 56K
> > In the receipt is written 3,000 Lire (1,500) Euro of today...
> > Do you think I can install something different than the already installed
> > WIN98 system ?
>

Brings back memories.  That was the last one I could bring up, in command
mode, with the command "win" bringing up the Windows Infrastructure.  I
tried to do that with Windows ME and was never successful.

Suggestion:  Don't throw anything away:  I think there are YouTube Videos,
about running Linux on Floppy Disks.

Kenneth Parker

Computer Museum (was Re: Very old hardware...)

2020-07-03 Thread Kenneth Parker

This is, actually something I would like to do.  Anyone know of good
Computer Museums in areas they've been in?  (I remember a good one, South
of San Francisco, but that's on the other side of the Country from North
Carolina).

I have a couple that I REALLY want to make work, in a Museum Environment:
A G3 Apple iBook, with the last Dual Boot to Apple's OS-9 (with OS X Jaguar
on the other side.  Look THAT up!).  I also have an Apple G4 iMac "Desk
Lamp", where the Disk Drive gave out.  (And it had the Archive of my
Classical Music CD Collection).  To get, at least a *little* back on Topic,
I successfully booted an old Debian DVD on the iMac (which, by the way,
last ran OS X Panther).  Unfortunately, it had trouble with the Graphics.
But, with the knowledge from these last couple years, I'm sure I can find
Firmware and Drivers that could work.

Yes, in the olden days, I liked Apple.  Then, they dropped Power PC and I
was Livid!  (What's the best protection, from Windows Viruses?  How about a
totally different CPU Architecture, where the Virus can't get anywhere.

Anyway, I am, right now, experiencing why Debian is so much better for
Computer Experts than Ubuntu or, Especially Mint.  (The Mint Install only
works from its Live DVD, which I am running on XFCE, on a Lenovo Ideapad
320.  What could possibly go wrong?)  So, for anyone who is looking for
Debian-like Alternatives, I give Thumbs Down on Mint 20, but *do* have a
message in their Forum.

But back to the Computer Museum, anyone else experience those?

Thanks for being patient with me.

Kenneth Parker

On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 1:34 PM Davide Lombardo  wrote:

> Good evening Debian User, I have found an old PC with these specs:
> CPU: Pentium III 700 Mhz;
> DRAM: 64 MB SDDR
> GPU: RIVA TNT-2
> HARDISK: 10 GB
> FLOPPY DISK DRIVE
> MODEM 56K
> In the receipt is written 3,000 Lire (1,500) Euro of today...
> Do you think I can install something different than the already installed
> WIN98 system ?

Re: Very old hardware...

2020-07-03 Thread Charles Curley

On Fri, 03 Jul 2020 19:17:33 +0200
Davide Lombardo  wrote:

> Good evening Debian User, I have found an old PC with these specs:
> CPU: Pentium III 700 Mhz;

It might be useful to identify the manufacturer of the computer or
motherboard, and search the Internet for documentation.

You may want to add a network card and as much memory as you can stuff
into it.

For installing, maybe a (temporary?) CD-ROM drive.

I would use the netboot installation disk. Get a minimal console only
installation going, update/upgrade as appropriate. Then add a GUI.
At that point, tasksel is your friend.

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

Re: Very old hardware...

2020-07-03 Thread Thomas Schmitt

Hi,

economically and ecologically it makes few sense to let old computers do
real work, even if they are for free. The ratio of power consumption to
computing power is like with an old 100 W light bulb.

But as exhibition object 'tis ok. :))

Davide Lombardo wrote:
> > CPU: Pentium III 700 Mhz;
> > DRAM: 64 MB SDDR
> > Lire

Ok. That would be year 2001 ?

Debian 2.2 "Potato" was contemporary. 3 CD images for "i386" are at
  https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/archive/older-contrib/2.2/
I guess that CD 1 would suffice to get a usable system.

Or 3.0 "Woody" from 2002, as the machine was high-end at that time.
The archive has an all-in-one DVD image

https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/archive/3.0_r6/i386/iso-dvd/debian-30r6-dvd-i386-binary-1.iso
If you can get an old Parallel-ATA DVD drive, then it should work even
with an IDE controller from 2001, if that controller is good for tapes
(known as EIDE/ATAPI).
Else there are 7 CD images
  https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/archive/3.0_r6/i386/iso-cd/
As window manager i advertise fvwm2, freshly introduced in Woody.
(On Potato it was probably the predecessor fvwm. Good enough.)

Georgi Naplatanov wrote:
> I think that for desktop environment you'll need 1GB RAM at least.

I wonder what Tiny Core Linux offers with "48 MB of RAM ... or less".
  http://www.tinycorelinux.net/intro.html
Damn Small Linux states to run on 16 MB.
  http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/

Gene Heskett wrote:
> Donate it to the curbside pickup.

When the Big Entropy Re-Collector reboots you in the year 1,000,000 AD
you will be accused of cruelty to hardware. Have a good excuse ready.

Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: Very old hardware...

2020-07-03 Thread Michael Stone


On Fri, Jul 03, 2020 at 07:17:33PM +0200, Davide Lombardo wrote:

Good evening Debian User, I have found an old PC with these specs:
CPU: Pentium III 700 Mhz;
DRAM: 64 MB SDDR
GPU: RIVA TNT-2
HARDISK: 10 GB
FLOPPY DISK DRIVE
MODEM 56K
In the receipt is written 3,000 Lire (1,500) Euro of today...
Do you think I can install something different than the already installed
WIN98 system ?


If the goal is just to experiment then you could run an older version of 
debian. (I think there's not enough memory for the current install 
routine.) OpenBSD or NetBSD or a linux distribution oriented toward 
small systems would run. Nothing will give you a good experience with a 
GUI and web browser on that hardware. For practical purposes, you'd be 
better off with a $35 raspberry PI.

Re: Very old hardware...

2020-07-03 Thread Georgi Naplatanov

On 7/3/20 8:17 PM, Davide Lombardo wrote:
> Good evening Debian User, I have found an old PC with these specs:
> CPU: Pentium III 700 Mhz;
> DRAM: 64 MB SDDR 
> GPU: RIVA TNT-2
> HARDISK: 10 GB
> FLOPPY DISK DRIVE
> MODEM 56K
> In the receipt is written 3,000 Lire (1,500) Euro of today...
> Do you think I can install something different than the already installed 
> WIN98 system ?

Hi,

I'm not sure what is minimum RAM requirement for Debian Linux kernel but
I think that for desktop environment you'll need 1GB RAM at least.

Kind regards
Georgi

Re: Very old hardware...

2020-07-03 Thread Christian Groessler


3000 Lire?

Did you mean 3.000,000 Lire?

regards,
chris


On 2020-07-03 19:17, Davide Lombardo wrote:

Good evening Debian User, I have found an old PC with these specs:
CPU: Pentium III 700 Mhz;
DRAM: 64 MB SDDR
GPU: RIVA TNT-2
HARDISK: 10 GB
FLOPPY DISK DRIVE
MODEM 56K
In the receipt is written 3,000 Lire (1,500) Euro of today...
Do you think I can install something different than the already installed
WIN98 system ?

Re: Very old hardware...

2020-07-03 Thread ghe2001

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256



‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Friday, July 3, 2020 12:08 PM, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Friday 03 July 2020 13:17:33 Davide Lombardo wrote:
>
> > Good evening Debian User, I have found an old PC with these specs:
> > CPU: Pentium III 700 Mhz;
> > DRAM: 64 MB SDDR
> > GPU: RIVA TNT-2
> > HARDISK: 10 GB
> > FLOPPY DISK DRIVE
> > MODEM 56K
> > In the receipt is written 3,000 Lire (1,500) Euro of today...
> > Do you think I can install something different than the already
> > installed WIN98 system ?
>
> There are bugs, particularly in the (IIRC)halt instruction that are not
> fixable by microcode that Pentium is too old and cannot be patched.

I don't understand everything you guys are talking about. But if you're looking 
for a Debian, my old Pentium III laptop was fat 'n happy with Jessie.

I don't think it had anything as massive as a 10G disk, though :-)

--
Glenn English



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Re: Very old hardware...

2020-07-03 Thread Hans

Am Freitag, 3. Juli 2020, 19:17:33 CEST schrieb Davide Lombardo:
Yeah, try debian/i386 with LXDE. It will run as fast as WindowsXP with a 2GHz 
singlecore cpu.

Graphics speed will run fast enough for office applications like libreoffice, 
but not for games. Oh, does it run Doom? Of course! 

OpenGl-games might run, but the Riva TNT-2 is hardware accelerated, but 
compared to modern cards --slow!

Problems might come in hardware, for example sound, but alsa should do it. If 
it runs pulseaudio? Do not know.

I would give it a try. As I said above, LXDE would be my choice for a window 
manager (LXQT or RazorQT might also run well). These are small and fast.

Running Gnome or Plasma5 will be pita.

All other application should also be small. What do you need? A browser? Try 
firefox (yes, it migh be slow), but you can also try chromium. More small 
browser is Dillo.

Mailing? You can try Thunderbird, but I would prefer Clawsmail, much faster.

Office? Try Libreoffice, if this is too slow, try Abiword. This is running 
well and fast on my Sharp Zaurus (800MHz) and is Microsoft and Libreoffice 
compatible.

Multimedia? Try VLC, might run well. If this is too slow, smplayer will be a 
good choice. It is small and fast.


Such system is well for fast network analysis, so you can also make a mesure 
machine of, just with console, using nmap, dig, traceroute and all the other 
things, you need for analysis. Even metasploit run well on this as most 
network tools, as they often need very few processing power.

And well, if all those does not work for you, try Damnsmalllinux, which is an 
old, but very fast linux running on a 48MB Machine with a Pentium 3 as fast as 
a WindowsXP machine on a 1,8GHz cpu with 2 GB RAM.

But do not kick this system away as long as it can be usefull.

And what about making a firewall of it or a logserver? 

Have fun!

Best 

Hans


> Good evening Debian User, I have found an old PC with these specs:
> CPU: Pentium III 700 Mhz;
> DRAM: 64 MB SDDR
> GPU: RIVA TNT-2
> HARDISK: 10 GB
> FLOPPY DISK DRIVE
> MODEM 56K
> In the receipt is written 3,000 Lire (1,500) Euro of today...
> Do you think I can install something different than the already installed
> WIN98 system ?



signature.asc
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Re: Very old hardware...

2020-07-03 Thread Gene Heskett

On Friday 03 July 2020 13:17:33 Davide Lombardo wrote:

> Good evening Debian User, I have found an old PC with these specs:
> CPU: Pentium III 700 Mhz;
> DRAM: 64 MB SDDR
> GPU: RIVA TNT-2
> HARDISK: 10 GB
> FLOPPY DISK DRIVE
> MODEM 56K
> In the receipt is written 3,000 Lire (1,500) Euro of today...
> Do you think I can install something different than the already
> installed WIN98 system ?

There are bugs, particularly in the (IIRC)halt instruction that are not 
fixable by microcode that Pentium is too old and cannot be patched.

And that is not enough memory to run anything newer than the W98 it has. 
Donate it to the curbside pickup.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page

Re: Very old hardware...

2020-07-03 Thread Jude DaShiell

Debian with xfce or mate or cinnamon may install and run well.  I don't
recommend gnome.
On Fri, 3 Jul 2020, Davide Lombardo wrote:

> Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 13:17:33
> From: Davide Lombardo 
> To: Debian-user List Debian 
> Subject: Very old hardware...
>
> Good evening Debian User, I have found an old PC with these specs:
> CPU: Pentium III 700 Mhz;
> DRAM: 64 MB SDDR
> GPU: RIVA TNT-2
> HARDISK: 10 GB
> FLOPPY DISK DRIVE
> MODEM 56K
> In the receipt is written 3,000 Lire (1,500) Euro of today...
> Do you think I can install something different than the already installed
> WIN98 system ?

--

Very old hardware...

2020-07-03 Thread Davide Lombardo

Good evening Debian User, I have found an old PC with these specs:
CPU: Pentium III 700 Mhz;
DRAM: 64 MB SDDR 
GPU: RIVA TNT-2
HARDISK: 10 GB
FLOPPY DISK DRIVE
MODEM 56K
In the receipt is written 3,000 Lire (1,500) Euro of today...
Do you think I can install something different than the already installed 
WIN98 system ?

signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.

Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

2020-07-01 Thread Dan Ritter

Miles Fidelman wrote: 
> On 7/1/20 7:04 AM, Reco wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, Jul 01, 2020 at 08:49:09PM +1000, elvis wrote:
> > > On 1/7/20 4:51 am, Dan Ritter wrote:

[attributions snipped]

> > > > > No.. if you want to be pedantic, the proper terminology is "Linux 
> > > > > Raid" or
> > > > > "md RAID."?? mdadm is one of several admin programs available
> > > > What are the others, please? (That will work on a modern system,
> > > > say, Debian stable or oldstable or unstable.)

> > > lvm does its own raid now too...

Elvis is correct here, but:

> > ... and it's not the mdraid, but entirely different kernel subsystem.
> > Last time I've checked it, they did not even implemented incremental
> > RAID assembly in LVM, meaning that you won't be able to use such array
> > if a single drive from LVM-based RAID will fail.
> > They've solved this problem in mdraid like 15 years ago.

Reco is also correct: lvm RAID is not mdadm RAID. And to further
confuse things,  you can build an mdadm RAID and then put LVM on
top of it, but this is not the RAID that LVM manages.

> > But staying on-topic, I'm too very interested to hear about alternative
> > interfaces to mdraid, which do not involve mdadm. libblockdev2 does not
> > count, it's merely a wrapper.
> 
> Sure looks like LVM raid make use of the same underlying md raid software as
> administered mdadm.

It doesn't.

> The info that LVM now includes some direct raid setup tools (that also make
> use of the underlying mdraid system), is new, and possibly useful.

It doesn't.

> Which does raise an interesting question:?? When the Debian installer gives
> the option to set up RAID volumes, does it use mdadm, or do it's own config,
> or use common libraries??? (Kind of arcane, but inquiring minds want to
> know.)

debian-installer calls partman; partman has a module called
partman-md; partman-md installs mdadm.udeb, which is a special
packaging of mdadm, produced by the Debian mdadm maintainers.

-dsr-

RAID stuff [was Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center]

2020-07-01 Thread Miles Fidelman




On 7/1/20 8:15 AM, Miles Fidelman wrote:

On 7/1/20 7:04 AM, Reco wrote:


On Wed, Jul 01, 2020 at 08:49:09PM +1000, elvis wrote:

On 1/7/20 4:51 am, Dan Ritter wrote:

Miles Fidelman wrote:

On 6/29/20 7:20 PM, Dan Ritter wrote:


Miles Fidelman wrote:

On 6/29/20 9:10 AM, Dan Ritter wrote:


Miles Fidelman wrote:

Now who's being pedantic?

Precisely.

And isn't this exactly what I said??? mdadm is an admin program, 
it doesn't

perform the raid function.

And it's OK to refer to the whole thing as an mdadm RAID.
No.. if you want to be pedantic, the proper terminology is "Linux 
Raid" or

"md RAID."?? mdadm is one of several admin programs available

What are the others, please? (That will work on a modern system,
say, Debian stable or oldstable or unstable.)

I think there's precisely one -- libblockdev2.

lvm does its own raid now too...

https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxquestions/comments/9kkk3b/md_raid_lvm_vs_lvm_raid/ 


... and it's not the mdraid, but entirely different kernel subsystem.
Last time I've checked it, they did not even implemented incremental
RAID assembly in LVM, meaning that you won't be able to use such array
if a single drive from LVM-based RAID will fail.
They've solved this problem in mdraid like 15 years ago.


But staying on-topic, I'm too very interested to hear about alternative
interfaces to mdraid, which do not involve mdadm. libblockdev2 does not
count, it's merely a wrapper.


Sure looks like LVM raid make use of the same underlying md raid 
software as administered mdadm.


Which kind of just reiterates what I said earlier - mdadm, as an 
administrative interface, is distinct & separate from the various 
software components that create md raid devices.  In the past, there 
were several other admin programs, but mdadm seems to be the major, 
maintained tool.


The info that LVM now includes some direct raid setup tools (that also 
make use of the underlying mdraid system), is new, and possibly useful.


Which does raise an interesting question:  When the Debian installer 
gives the option to set up RAID volumes, does it use mdadm, or do it's 
own config, or use common libraries?  (Kind of arcane, but inquiring 
minds want to know.)


Miles Fidelman


Answered my own question.  The older set of tools were packaged as md 
tools and raid tools.  Meanwhile, configuration of RAID partitions is 
done by partman.




--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.   Yogi Berra

Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown

Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

2020-07-01 Thread Miles Fidelman


On 7/1/20 7:04 AM, Reco wrote:


On Wed, Jul 01, 2020 at 08:49:09PM +1000, elvis wrote:

On 1/7/20 4:51 am, Dan Ritter wrote:

Miles Fidelman wrote:

On 6/29/20 7:20 PM, Dan Ritter wrote:


Miles Fidelman wrote:

On 6/29/20 9:10 AM, Dan Ritter wrote:


Miles Fidelman wrote:

Now who's being pedantic?

Precisely.


And isn't this exactly what I said??? mdadm is an admin program, it doesn't
perform the raid function.

And it's OK to refer to the whole thing as an mdadm RAID.

No.. if you want to be pedantic, the proper terminology is "Linux Raid" or
"md RAID."?? mdadm is one of several admin programs available

What are the others, please? (That will work on a modern system,
say, Debian stable or oldstable or unstable.)

I think there's precisely one -- libblockdev2.

lvm does its own raid now too...

https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxquestions/comments/9kkk3b/md_raid_lvm_vs_lvm_raid/

... and it's not the mdraid, but entirely different kernel subsystem.
Last time I've checked it, they did not even implemented incremental
RAID assembly in LVM, meaning that you won't be able to use such array
if a single drive from LVM-based RAID will fail.
They've solved this problem in mdraid like 15 years ago.


But staying on-topic, I'm too very interested to hear about alternative
interfaces to mdraid, which do not involve mdadm. libblockdev2 does not
count, it's merely a wrapper.


Sure looks like LVM raid make use of the same underlying md raid 
software as administered mdadm.


Which kind of just reiterates what I said earlier - mdadm, as an 
administrative interface, is distinct & separate from the various 
software components that create md raid devices.  In the past, there 
were several other admin programs, but mdadm seems to be the major, 
maintained tool.


The info that LVM now includes some direct raid setup tools (that also 
make use of the underlying mdraid system), is new, and possibly useful.


Which does raise an interesting question:  When the Debian installer 
gives the option to set up RAID volumes, does it use mdadm, or do it's 
own config, or use common libraries?  (Kind of arcane, but inquiring 
minds want to know.)


Miles Fidelman


--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.   Yogi Berra

Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown

Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

2020-07-01 Thread Reco

On Wed, Jul 01, 2020 at 08:49:09PM +1000, elvis wrote:
> 
> On 1/7/20 4:51 am, Dan Ritter wrote:
> > Miles Fidelman wrote:
> > > On 6/29/20 7:20 PM, Dan Ritter wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Miles Fidelman wrote:
> > > > > On 6/29/20 9:10 AM, Dan Ritter wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > Miles Fidelman wrote:
> > > > > Now who's being pedantic?
> > > > Precisely.
> > > > 
> > > > > And isn't this exactly what I said??? mdadm is an admin program, it 
> > > > > doesn't
> > > > > perform the raid function.
> > > > And it's OK to refer to the whole thing as an mdadm RAID.
> > > No.. if you want to be pedantic, the proper terminology is "Linux Raid" or
> > > "md RAID."?? mdadm is one of several admin programs available
> > What are the others, please? (That will work on a modern system,
> > say, Debian stable or oldstable or unstable.)
> > 
> > I think there's precisely one -- libblockdev2.
> 
> lvm does its own raid now too...
> 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxquestions/comments/9kkk3b/md_raid_lvm_vs_lvm_raid/

... and it's not the mdraid, but entirely different kernel subsystem.
Last time I've checked it, they did not even implemented incremental
RAID assembly in LVM, meaning that you won't be able to use such array
if a single drive from LVM-based RAID will fail.
They've solved this problem in mdraid like 15 years ago.

But staying on-topic, I'm too very interested to hear about alternative
interfaces to mdraid, which do not involve mdadm. libblockdev2 does not
count, it's merely a wrapper.

Reco

Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

2020-07-01 Thread elvis




On 1/7/20 4:51 am, Dan Ritter wrote:

Miles Fidelman wrote:

On 6/29/20 7:20 PM, Dan Ritter wrote:


Miles Fidelman wrote:

On 6/29/20 9:10 AM, Dan Ritter wrote:


Miles Fidelman wrote:

Now who's being pedantic?

Precisely.


And isn't this exactly what I said??? mdadm is an admin program, it doesn't
perform the raid function.

And it's OK to refer to the whole thing as an mdadm RAID.

No.. if you want to be pedantic, the proper terminology is "Linux Raid" or
"md RAID."?? mdadm is one of several admin programs available

What are the others, please? (That will work on a modern system,
say, Debian stable or oldstable or unstable.)

I think there's precisely one -- libblockdev2.



lvm does its own raid now too...


https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxquestions/comments/9kkk3b/md_raid_lvm_vs_lvm_raid/






saying "mdadm raid" is like saying "libvert hypervisor" - when what you
really mean is Xen, or KVM, or ESXI - accessed through libvert

When you're building systems, details matter.

libvirt.

-dsr-


--
Born again Christians are a pain because the second birth was

Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

2020-06-30 Thread Dan Ritter

Miles Fidelman wrote: 
> On 6/29/20 7:20 PM, Dan Ritter wrote:
> 
> > Miles Fidelman wrote:
> > > On 6/29/20 9:10 AM, Dan Ritter wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Miles Fidelman wrote:
> > > Now who's being pedantic?
> > Precisely.
> > 
> > > And isn't this exactly what I said??? mdadm is an admin program, it 
> > > doesn't
> > > perform the raid function.
> > And it's OK to refer to the whole thing as an mdadm RAID.
> 
> No.. if you want to be pedantic, the proper terminology is "Linux Raid" or
> "md RAID."?? mdadm is one of several admin programs available

What are the others, please? (That will work on a modern system,
say, Debian stable or oldstable or unstable.)

I think there's precisely one -- libblockdev2. 

> saying "mdadm raid" is like saying "libvert hypervisor" - when what you
> really mean is Xen, or KVM, or ESXI - accessed through libvert
> 
> When you're building systems, details matter.

libvirt. 

-dsr-

Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

2020-06-30 Thread Miles Fidelman


On 6/29/20 7:20 PM, Dan Ritter wrote:


Miles Fidelman wrote:

On 6/29/20 9:10 AM, Dan Ritter wrote:


Miles Fidelman wrote:

Now who's being pedantic?

Precisely.


And isn't this exactly what I said??? mdadm is an admin program, it doesn't
perform the raid function.

And it's OK to refer to the whole thing as an mdadm RAID.


No.. if you want to be pedantic, the proper terminology is "Linux Raid" 
or "md RAID."  mdadm is one of several admin programs available


saying "mdadm raid" is like saying "libvert hypervisor" - when what you 
really mean is Xen, or KVM, or ESXI - accessed through libvert


When you're building systems, details matter.

Miles Fidelman


--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.   Yogi Berra

Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown

Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

Miles Fidelman wrote: 
> On 6/29/20 9:10 AM, Dan Ritter wrote:
> 
> > Miles Fidelman wrote:
> Now who's being pedantic?

Precisely.

> And isn't this exactly what I said??? mdadm is an admin program, it doesn't
> perform the raid function.

And it's OK to refer to the whole thing as an mdadm RAID.

-dsr-

Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

2020-06-29 Thread David Christensen

On 2020-06-29 10:40, echo test wrote:

> On 2020-06-28 18:58, David Christensen wrote:

ZFS requires a different way of thinking,

At what level do we have to change our mind?

Thus far, I have had to re-think operations, maintenance, and disaster
recovery. As I develop software, I must re-think storage.

For example will this impact the way to think SELinux (normally no) ?

I do not use SELinux, so I do not know.

you have good backup and restore processes for your current systems?

What are your plans for the new systems?

...
Do you desire 24x7 operations, live maintenance, automatic fail-over,

high-availability, or similar? If so, how?

...
What is your budget and schedule? Manpower?

About the budget an manpower, we are creating a financial plan in order to
present it to our investors, so nothing is well decided for the moment,
that is why all your answers and suggestions are welcome and very useful.

I suggest doing an inventory of existing equipment and facilities.
Then, compute replacement costs. Then document ongoing operations and
maintenance activities, Then, compute ongoing operations, maintenance,
and personnel costs. Use this data to plan the new data center.

What is ideal for 24/7 operations,high-availability and auto fail-over ?

Every person is going to have a different definition of "ideal". The
starting point is identifying and applying metrics for measuring what
matters to your company (and to your customers). Again, I suggest
computer and network monitoring systems.

We're 8 in the team for the moment, 2 web and mobile developer and only 2
peoples know things about system and network (admin,security,..) but we
plan to get more peoples.
So please, suggest, in the worst case we will have learned more things.

This is arguably the best general book in its subject area. Everyone
involved in the computer industry can benefit from reading it,
especially managers and investors:

[1]
https://www.pearson.com/us/higher-education/program/Brooks-Mythical-Man-Month-The-Essays-on-Software-Engineering-Anniversary-Edition-2nd-Edition/PGM172844.html

I liked this book for its specificity. There are many books available
in this subject area, often connected to a "quality system". However,
be warned that many people resist formal processes, and those that are
supervisors may become offended by a subordinate who suggests such:

[2]
https://www.pearson.com/us/higher-education/program/Mc-Connell-Software-Project-Survival-Guide/PGM280992.html

David

Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

2020-06-29 Thread Miles Fidelman

Actually, he seems to be designing a central database to support 2000 
retail restaurants.


And based on most recent posts, seems to be pre-startup designing a product.

My sense is that what he really needs is somebody on the team who 
understands distributed enterprise architectures.


Miles


On 6/29/20 2:00 AM, Leslie Rhorer wrote:
Not necessarily, and in particular not given his needs, if I 
recall them correctly.  LVM is fine for many purposes, but it is not 
required, nor is a network file system.  My servers at home have no 
partitions and no LVM, and I have the RAID system for the data volume 
formatted as XFS.  I use separate partitioned SSDs for booting and swap.


On 6/28/2020 3:48 PM, Miles Fidelman wrote:

On 6/28/20 3:58 PM, D. R. Evans wrote:


Dan Ritter wrote on 6/26/20 1:41 PM:

echo test wrote:


Note: I will need some RAID solution hard or soft.

We are firmly of the opinion that mdadm or ZFS are the best
solutions here.


Absolutely.

Actually I'd go further and differentiate the two by suggesting that 
if you
use ECC memory (which you definitely should for a business server) 
then ZFS is
the way to go. If for some reason you can't use ECC memory, then 
mdadm is
arguably the thing to use (although there is certainly a valid 
position that
says that ZFS is /still/ the right one). At least, that's the way I 
have my

systems configured.


Just to be clear... mdadm is NOT raid - it's an admin program for 
managing linux raid (md) devices.  And then you need to worry about 
LVM (logical volume manager), and a network file system on top of them.


Miles




--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.   Yogi Berra

Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown

Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

2020-06-29 Thread Miles Fidelman


On 6/29/20 9:10 AM, Dan Ritter wrote:


Miles Fidelman wrote:

Just to be clear... mdadm is NOT raid - it's an admin program for managing
linux raid (md) devices.?? And then you need to worry about LVM (logical
volume manager), and a network file system on top of them.

Just to be clear, you are being pedantic bordering on wrong here. This
is like saying "a hamburger is not ground beef patties, and then you
need to worry about vegetables and condiments".

mdadm is the administrative interface program for the kernel's md
subsystem. It is used generically as a synonym for "the kernel's
md subsystem" because for most people encountering them, they
are inextricably intertwined.

The kernel's md subsystem manages RAID 0, 1, 4, 5, 6 and 10. It
also has a non-RAID linear mode, a container abstraction, and a
fault-simulation mode.


Now who's being pedantic?

And isn't this exactly what I said?  mdadm is an admin program, it 
doesn't perform the raid function.




LVM is completely independent of the md subsystem, and can be
used with or without it. Some people love it. Some avoid it like
the plague -- oops. Some avoid it like rational people avoid the
plague.

Various network file systems are also completely independent of
the md subsystem.
ZFS is an integrated data storage system that presents N
filesystem and partition-equivalent views to the kernel. It is
independent of and an alternative to md and lvm. It offers a
semi-integrated NFS and CIFS export facility. Underneath, it
offers storage options including error-detection, compression, mirroring,
striping, RAID-5 and -6 style parity, read caching and write
caching. Only the error detection is mandatory.

I'm pretty sure we all know this.  The point is that comparing mdadm to 
ZFS is an apples to oranges comparison.  You don't chose between mdadm 
and ZFS, you chose between ZFS and a stack of software that performs the 
same set of functions.


Miles Fidelman


--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.   Yogi Berra

Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown

Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 19:28:12 +0300
Reco  wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 12:15:22PM -0400, Celejar wrote:
> > On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 18:58:18 +0300
> > Reco  wrote:
> > 
> > >   Hi.
> > > 
> > > On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 11:51:52AM -0400, Celejar wrote:
> > > > > > I'm curious, although I don't know much about, and have little
> > > > > > experience with, enterprise hardware. Am I correct in my 
> > > > > > understanding
> > > > > > that it is actually possible to run (more-or-less) Debian on a 
> > > > > > switch
> > > > > > by using OpenSwitch (OPX) on an Open Networking switch.
> > > > > 
> > > > > It's possible. Does not mean that typical enterprise is doing it.
> > > > > OpenSwitch and SDNs in general are big data center toys.
> > > > 
> > > > OPX is SDN? My understanding was that it was simply an open source
> > > > replacement for the proprietary switch OSs that are more commonly run
> > > > on switch hardware.
> > > 
> > > Call it as you like. Managed switch emulator, replacement for switch
> > > firmware or whatever. It's a software-only (or mostly if we count DPPK)
> > > solution that can turn commodity hardware in a low-tier switch. Add
> > > several of those and you have an SDN.
> > 
> > ? Open Switch (OPX) doesn't turn commodity hardware in[to] a low-tier
> > switch - it runs on high-tier switches, instead of the proprietary
> > switch Osss that are more commonly used. It's not an emulator. Perhaps
> > you're thinking of Open vSwitch (OVS)?
> 
> I need to learn to pay attention while reading. You're correct, I'm
> mistaken.

:) You actually know this stuff, and so make the occasional careless
mistake. I'm reading up on it and writing emails as I go along ...

Celejar

Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

2020-06-29 Thread David Christensen


debian-user:

I sent the following to the OP rather than the list by mistake...


David



On 2020-06-28 03:34, echo test wrote:


... about 2000 users all are restaurants that save their
selling history locally on their own server then 2 or 3 times in the
morning they will rsync their postgres data on my data center.



We are a startup and for the moment we have a production and a
development, in fact the production is just like a test environment
because we do continuous delivery, we push everyday in order to know
more quickly  when something has been broken and our semi-automated
tests didn't detect it. Personally, I'm a self learner, and probably
many guys of my team are too. So some advices here are also welcome.



We want to be able to handle 2500+ rsync in the morning (probably
distributing them in time in order to avoid a single big load acting
as a ddos) and for each client of my clients (restaurants) a get and
put profile request.



Note: client's profile are shared across restaurants and clients can
find/filter restaurants on the website which is not yet built but we
are working on it.



Thank you for describing your services.  That makes it easier for people 
to comment.



It sounds like you have three services -- mail, web, and database.  The 
web and database services interact heavily, but mail not so much.



I once worked on a project with a similar aspect.  One server dialed 
remote data acquisition units and downloaded data updates once a day. 
The engineers would then copy the database from the server to their 
workstations and crunch the numbers.  The data collection server was a 
modest computer.  The engineers always wanted more powerful computers. I 
recall one query took 30+ minutes to run on my workstation.  I added 
indexes for the relevant fields, and the query took a few minutes. 
Powerful hardware is nice, but using it efficiently is even better.




ZFS beeing a filesystem and mdadm an utility software, I think I'll go
for mdadm. I didn't know that Debian was supporting ZFS I always used
Ext4.



For ZFS on Debian, install the 'zfs-dkms' package.


I migrated my file servers from Linux, md, and ext4 to FreeBSD and ZFS 
over the past few years.  ZFS requires a different way of thinking, and 
I am still wrestling with automating system administration chores.  Key 
benefits include unification of the storage stack, flexible storage 
allocation and management, fine-grained control via metadata, detection 
and correction of bit rot, snapshots, and replication.  With careful 
planning, the last feature can replace rsync(1) and has the advantage 
that it can be done both synchronously and asynchronously.  So, you can 
replicate over a network in real-time and you can send a replication 
stream to a file and receive it later.



Given the trends of increasing storage, increasing bandwidth, and flat 
bit error rates, bit rot has become a reality that we must contend with. 
 For file systems, the only two choices I know of are btrfs and ZFS.  I 
chose ZFS.



Similarly so for memory.  I now buy computers with ECC memory.



... raspberry pi ... external hard drive ...
I dislike the idea that if I encrypt my hard drive anybody with enough
knowledge can just take the SD card and break my encryption.


If all an attacker needs to decrypt your external hard drive is the SD 
card from your Raspberry Pi, then your encryption is not implemented 
correctly.



My practice for external drives is to encrypt them with a random 
alphanumeric password (I believe the current recommendation is 12 or 
more characters).




About the power consumption, any advice about some low power hardware are
also welcome.


I believe power consumption for transistors is proportional to clock 
frequency squared.  So, one core running twice as fast does twice the 
work, but consumes four times the power.  If your program(s) can be 
readily divided into many concurrent tasks, a 16-core processor running 
at 2 GHz will accomplish twice the work as a 4-core processor running at 
4 GHz, for the same amount of power.



Choose energy efficient hardware and components, especially power supplies.


Write and use efficient software.



Why do you dislike systemd ? I heard many people saying the same
thing and I don't really understand what are their motivation except initd
is less invasive.


systemd has been debated endlessly.  I install and run Debian 
"oldstable" OOTB, I avoid unofficial packages.  I avoid compiling/ 
installing from source.  As a result, I systemd is mostly invisible to 
me.  If you build your services to run on a Unix-like OS without 
customizing the OS itself, that would simplify things.




On 2020-06-28 00:16, David Christensen wrote:



Even if you do not use their services, you might find it useful to
emulate them and implement a private cloud.



Very interesting, can you tell me more about that emulation process please ?


There has been a trend towards virtualization and contai

Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

2020-06-29 Thread Andrei POPESCU

On Lu, 29 iun 20, 09:25:03, Alessandro Baggi wrote:
> 
> Il 29/06/20 09:02, Andrei POPESCU ha scritto:
> > On Du, 28 iun 20, 00:16:05, David Christensen wrote:
> > > I have yet to
> > > hear of an "enterprise" environment built on Debian, but you can tell us
> > > about yours when you build it. (URL's for examples of such are welcome.)
> > Maybe some of the deployments here fit your definition of "enterprise".
> > 
> > https://www.debian.org/users/
> 
> I think that this list is outdated. For example the page related to
> BackBlaze reports that they use Debian 4.

The list is based on voluntary submissions, so it is challenging to keep 
up to date.

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser


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Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

2020-06-29 Thread echo test

I'm very happy to have asked this question here, my brain is enjoying.
Thank you again for all, I'll definitely be stick on Debian.

> Something seems a little flakey about that architecture.  Rsyncng
postgress data?  There are lots of better ways to merge data into a
database.  Particularly in these days of cheap, continuous, broadband
connectivity.  And if you can't get business broadband in all your
locations, cellular modems are dirt cheap.  (I speak as someone who's
designed more than a few mobile data collection systems - everything from
tactical military systems to transit buses)

Exactly, what a bad idea. Here I should be talking about sync not rsync (
autocorrect killed me). I was thinking about WAL archiving for a point in
time recovery.

> Rsync is just wrong for that kind of application.  What are you syncing,
anyway.  2500 postgress instances, some raw data files for input to a
single instance of postgress, something else?  And if the postgress
instance is feeding live data to apps, you really need to focus first on
your high-availability strategy - single points of failure will kill you.

Not for database but for raw files like images, video and audio, I planned
using rsync ( I've not yet tested if git could do the trick here but I
thought about it)

> As a startup, you've got way too many other things to worry about than
home brewing an IT environment - focus on your core product/service,
whatever that is

Exactly, but when I've seen that the product we are going to build will
cover all those aspects a.k.a building this means our product is ready and
we gained more experience on the subject.
 > I added indexes for the relevant fields, and the query took a few
minutes. Powerful hardware is nice, but using it efficiently is even better

Infinitely right, I don't repeating this to my team.

> ZFS requires a different way of thinking,
> ...
>  So, you can replicate over a network in real-time and you can send a
replication
stream to a file and receive it later.

At what level do we have to change our mind? For example will this impact
the way to think SELinux (normally no) ?

> you have good backup and restore processes for your current systems?
What are your plans for the new systems?
> ...
> Do you desire 24x7 operations, live maintenance, automatic fail-over,
high-availability, or similar?  If so, how?
> ...
> What is your budget and schedule?  Manpower?

About the budget an manpower, we are creating a financial plan in order to
present it to our investors, so nothing is well decided for the moment,
that is why all your answers and suggestions are welcome and very useful.
What is ideal for 24/7 operations,high-availability and auto fail-over ?
We're 8 in the team for the moment, 2 web and mobile developer and only 2
peoples know things about system and network (admin,security,..) but we
plan to get more peoples.
So please, suggest, in the worst case we will have learned more things.

+2 for docker and kubernetes


> We also had some HPE Proliant DL380, that's pure crap (a lot a disk died
in the same month, bios update are non free, watermarked hard disks).
For now, they are all out of order, and it's far too expensive to repair
them.

Thank very much for this warning. Something more to remove from the list of
things to evaluate. And somewhere in my mind I was suspecting things like
this :) .


Le dim. 28 juin 2020 à 20:51, Miles Fidelman  a
écrit :

> On 6/28/20 6:37 AM, echo test wrote:
>
>
> Hello,
>
> Thank you for all your answers and sorry to be late for answering.
>
> > I prefer ZFS but I find that lots of corps prefer mdadm. I really think
> that's simply > because ZFS came from Sun and they lack Solaris
> backgrounds. Now, in a low-> RAM environment with simpler disc needs, I
> would probably go with mdadm.
> > Anything else I would choose ZFS. It's ability to take care of itself is
> surprisingly > strong. Less work for me after the set up and installation.
>
> ZFS beeing a filesystem and mdadm an utility software, I think I'll go for
> mdadm. I didn't know that Debian was supporting ZFS I always used Ext4.
>
> It's a stack.  You build up from disk, to block-level raid, to volume
> manager, to file system, to access protocol.
>
> ZFS includes multiple levels of the stack.  And yes there are ZFS
> implementations for Debian, along with a dozen or more other file systems.
>
>
> Sorry if I'm misunderstanding, are you saying that Debian  cannot scale in
> a bigger enterprise ?
> Can you tell me what happened with hardware RAID solutions?
>
> > small" could be anything from 10 to 1000 users. Mentioning some numbers
> > could get you more useful recommendations.
> > In any case, some interesting hardware not mentioned so far (don't
> > forget about the power consumption).
>
> Small here is for me about 2000 use

Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 18:32:40 +0200
MAS Jean-Louis  wrote:

...

> We have about  100 servers now, mostly Dell, and we are working with
> Dell for about 17 years, without any troubles. We owned several hundred
> Dell's servers during those years, mostly running on Debian.
> 
> Everything work fine with Debian out of the box, sometime you need
> firmware for Broadcom network cards, no more that that.

Yes, indeed:

https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=895258

Celejar

Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

2020-06-29 Thread MAS Jean-Louis

Le 29/06/2020 à 17:31, Reco a écrit :

> I see nothing wrong with Dell servers per se. If one really needs
> something relatively cheap and durable - there's nothing wrong with
> Dell (or Supermicro, but that's politics again). But, it's Tier 2, not
> 1. So - my quote at the top.

We have about  100 servers now, mostly Dell, and we are working with
Dell for about 17 years, without any troubles. We owned several hundred
Dell's servers during those years, mostly running on Debian.

Everything work fine with Debian out of the box, sometime you need
firmware for Broadcom network cards, no more that that.

We also had some HPE Proliant DL380, that's pure crap (a lot a disk died
in the same month, bios update are non free, watermarked hard disks).
For now, they are all out of order, and it's far too expensive to repair
them.

Regards

-- 
Jean Louis Mas



smime.p7s
Description: Signature cryptographique S/MIME

Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 12:15:22PM -0400, Celejar wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 18:58:18 +0300
> Reco  wrote:
> 
> > Hi.
> > 
> > On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 11:51:52AM -0400, Celejar wrote:
> > > > > I'm curious, although I don't know much about, and have little
> > > > > experience with, enterprise hardware. Am I correct in my understanding
> > > > > that it is actually possible to run (more-or-less) Debian on a switch
> > > > > by using OpenSwitch (OPX) on an Open Networking switch.
> > > > 
> > > > It's possible. Does not mean that typical enterprise is doing it.
> > > > OpenSwitch and SDNs in general are big data center toys.
> > > 
> > > OPX is SDN? My understanding was that it was simply an open source
> > > replacement for the proprietary switch OSs that are more commonly run
> > > on switch hardware.
> > 
> > Call it as you like. Managed switch emulator, replacement for switch
> > firmware or whatever. It's a software-only (or mostly if we count DPPK)
> > solution that can turn commodity hardware in a low-tier switch. Add
> > several of those and you have an SDN.
> 
> ? Open Switch (OPX) doesn't turn commodity hardware in[to] a low-tier
> switch - it runs on high-tier switches, instead of the proprietary
> switch Osss that are more commonly used. It's not an emulator. Perhaps
> you're thinking of Open vSwitch (OVS)?

I need to learn to pay attention while reading. You're correct, I'm
mistaken.

Reco

Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 18:58:18 +0300
Reco  wrote:

>   Hi.
> 
> On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 11:51:52AM -0400, Celejar wrote:
> > > > I'm curious, although I don't know much about, and have little
> > > > experience with, enterprise hardware. Am I correct in my understanding
> > > > that it is actually possible to run (more-or-less) Debian on a switch
> > > > by using OpenSwitch (OPX) on an Open Networking switch.
> > > 
> > > It's possible. Does not mean that typical enterprise is doing it.
> > > OpenSwitch and SDNs in general are big data center toys.
> > 
> > OPX is SDN? My understanding was that it was simply an open source
> > replacement for the proprietary switch OSs that are more commonly run
> > on switch hardware.
> 
> Call it as you like. Managed switch emulator, replacement for switch
> firmware or whatever. It's a software-only (or mostly if we count DPPK)
> solution that can turn commodity hardware in a low-tier switch. Add
> several of those and you have an SDN.

? Open Switch (OPX) doesn't turn commodity hardware in[to] a low-tier
switch - it runs on high-tier switches, instead of the proprietary
switch Osss that are more commonly used. It's not an emulator. Perhaps
you're thinking of Open vSwitch (OVS)?

Celejar

Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

Hi.

On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 11:51:52AM -0400, Celejar wrote:
> > > I'm curious, although I don't know much about, and have little
> > > experience with, enterprise hardware. Am I correct in my understanding
> > > that it is actually possible to run (more-or-less) Debian on a switch
> > > by using OpenSwitch (OPX) on an Open Networking switch.
> > 
> > It's possible. Does not mean that typical enterprise is doing it.
> > OpenSwitch and SDNs in general are big data center toys.
> 
> OPX is SDN? My understanding was that it was simply an open source
> replacement for the proprietary switch OSs that are more commonly run
> on switch hardware.

Call it as you like. Managed switch emulator, replacement for switch
firmware or whatever. It's a software-only (or mostly if we count DPPK)
solution that can turn commodity hardware in a low-tier switch. Add
several of those and you have an SDN.

Reco

Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 18:21:08 +0300
Reco  wrote:

>   Hi.
> 
> On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 10:50:43AM -0400, Celejar wrote:
> > On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 15:41:13 -0400
> > Dan Ritter  wrote:
> > 
> > ...
> > 
> > > To give an idea of what you might buy:
> > > 
> > > a firewall/router
> > > a switch
> > > a load-balancer
> > > 2 web servers
> > > a database server
> > > a mail server
> > > a general utility box with lots of storage to handle backups
> > > 
> > > All of those duties except the switch can reasonable be run on
> > > Debian servers. 
> > 
> > I'm curious, although I don't know much about, and have little
> > experience with, enterprise hardware. Am I correct in my understanding
> > that it is actually possible to run (more-or-less) Debian on a switch
> > by using OpenSwitch (OPX) on an Open Networking switch.
> 
> It's possible. Does not mean that typical enterprise is doing it.
> OpenSwitch and SDNs in general are big data center toys.

OPX is SDN? My understanding was that it was simply an open source
replacement for the proprietary switch OSs that are more commonly run
on switch hardware.

> But as long as we're talking routing traffic up to 1Gbps for that
> typical SOHO - you don't need OpenSwtich at all, stock Linux kernel will
> do it just fine. It's the hardware that gets tricky here - they do not
> set up that many Ethernet ports on a typical server/consumer hardware as
> one expects from a typical switch.
> 
> 
> > I have no idea if this would be cost-effective in the OP's situation -
> > basic switches are certainly a whole lot cheaper than the ones I
> > looked at on the OPX HCL.
> 
> In general situation it won't be cost-effective. You just cannot beat
> the cost of D-Link switch ($250 for that typical 1Gbps 24 ports) with
> the cost of 1U server ($2000 and up). One could try to cut the costs
> with consumer hardware or even SBCs, but where come the questions of
> reliability, remote management, etc.

Understood, thanks.

Celejar

Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 11:09:02 -0400
Dan Ritter  wrote:

> Celejar wrote: 
> > On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 15:41:13 -0400
> > Dan Ritter  wrote:
> > 
> > ...
> > 
> > > To give an idea of what you might buy:
> > > 
> > > a firewall/router
> > > a switch
> > > a load-balancer
> > > 2 web servers
> > > a database server
> > > a mail server
> > > a general utility box with lots of storage to handle backups
> > > 
> > > All of those duties except the switch can reasonable be run on
> > > Debian servers. 
> > 
> > I'm curious, although I don't know much about, and have little
> > experience with, enterprise hardware. Am I correct in my understanding
> > that it is actually possible to run (more-or-less) Debian on a switch
> > by using OpenSwitch (OPX) on an Open Networking switch. I have no idea
> > if this would be cost-effective in the OP's situation - basic switches
> > are certainly a whole lot cheaper than the ones I looked at on the
> > OPX HCL.
> 
> Yes, and yes, those are fairly high-end switches compared to
> what people tend to use in homes and offices.
> 
> In many situations, people don't even need a manageable
> switch. Once you start to exceed, say, 40 connections, a managed
> switch becomes first useful and then necessity. When you need
> multi-chassis failover and intra-switch links of more complexity
> than "each desktop gets an 8 port gig-e switch with one used as
> an uplink to the office switch", you need high-end switch
> features.


Gotcha. I did realize that those were higher on the food chain when I
saw that they started at 10GB and went up from there ...

Celejar

Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

Hi.

On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 11:22:21AM -0400, Celejar wrote:
> > Anything else is at least one tier lower so why bother discussing it?
> 
> What do you have against Dell?

I have a troubled past with EMC :)

> Everything I've read indicates that their enterprise gear is very
> good, and quite affordable, particularly on the second-hand market. I
> have very limited experience in this area, but I've been running
> Debian on a used R210 II for a while and it has been rock solid.

I see nothing wrong with Dell servers per se. If one really needs
something relatively cheap and durable - there's nothing wrong with
Dell (or Supermicro, but that's politics again). But, it's Tier 2, not
1. So - my quote at the top.

Reco

Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

On Mon, 29 Jun 2020 16:45:48 +0300
Reco  wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 01:27:05AM +1200, Richard Hector wrote:
> > > I'll be original here. Try SunFire X-series (aka SunServer X). Somewhat
> > > costly, and the hardware quality is a hit or miss in newer models, but
> > > runs Debian stable like it was designed for it.
> > 
> > I'm a little unclear what you're suggesting here - Sun Fire and Sun
> > Server seem to be both retired names (according to Wikipedia, anyway ...)
> 
> I'm suggesting x86-64 Intel server with an Oracle logo on it.
> I agree to call it whatever they call it at Oracle these days be it
> SunFire, SunServer or whatever.
> Whenever said server(s) will be bought from the Oracle, a certain
> partners or, say, Ebay - I don't see how it can be relevant here.
> 
> 
> > Are you suggesting Oracle servers in general?
> 
> Yep. I can say a lot of bad things about HPE hardware (but I won't, it'll
> be off-topic), and I can't say anything good about Lenovo (those IBM
> X-series were not bad, but it was a long time ago). Also, last one is a
> political thing, and this list is an unsuitable place for discussing
> political things.
> I could also mention Huawei, but I won't - it's a political thing too.
> Oracle servers (five years ago, at least) tend to Just Work™, barring
> that usual "half-year after the purchase" time period.
> 
> Anything else is at least one tier lower so why bother discussing it?

What do you have against Dell? Everything I've read indicates that
their enterprise gear is very good, and quite affordable, particularly
on the second-hand market. I have very limited experience in this area,
but I've been running Debian on a used R210 II for a while and it has
been rock solid.

Celejar

Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

Hi.

On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 10:50:43AM -0400, Celejar wrote:
> On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 15:41:13 -0400
> Dan Ritter  wrote:
> 
> ...
> 
> > To give an idea of what you might buy:
> > 
> > a firewall/router
> > a switch
> > a load-balancer
> > 2 web servers
> > a database server
> > a mail server
> > a general utility box with lots of storage to handle backups
> > 
> > All of those duties except the switch can reasonable be run on
> > Debian servers. 
> 
> I'm curious, although I don't know much about, and have little
> experience with, enterprise hardware. Am I correct in my understanding
> that it is actually possible to run (more-or-less) Debian on a switch
> by using OpenSwitch (OPX) on an Open Networking switch.

It's possible. Does not mean that typical enterprise is doing it.
OpenSwitch and SDNs in general are big data center toys.

But as long as we're talking routing traffic up to 1Gbps for that
typical SOHO - you don't need OpenSwtich at all, stock Linux kernel will
do it just fine. It's the hardware that gets tricky here - they do not
set up that many Ethernet ports on a typical server/consumer hardware as
one expects from a typical switch.

> I have no idea if this would be cost-effective in the OP's situation -
> basic switches are certainly a whole lot cheaper than the ones I
> looked at on the OPX HCL.

In general situation it won't be cost-effective. You just cannot beat
the cost of D-Link switch ($250 for that typical 1Gbps 24 ports) with
the cost of 1U server ($2000 and up). One could try to cut the costs
with consumer hardware or even SBCs, but where come the questions of
reliability, remote management, etc.

Reco

Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

Celejar wrote: 
> On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 15:41:13 -0400
> Dan Ritter  wrote:
> 
> ...
> 
> > To give an idea of what you might buy:
> > 
> > a firewall/router
> > a switch
> > a load-balancer
> > 2 web servers
> > a database server
> > a mail server
> > a general utility box with lots of storage to handle backups
> > 
> > All of those duties except the switch can reasonable be run on
> > Debian servers. 
> 
> I'm curious, although I don't know much about, and have little
> experience with, enterprise hardware. Am I correct in my understanding
> that it is actually possible to run (more-or-less) Debian on a switch
> by using OpenSwitch (OPX) on an Open Networking switch. I have no idea
> if this would be cost-effective in the OP's situation - basic switches
> are certainly a whole lot cheaper than the ones I looked at on the
> OPX HCL.

Yes, and yes, those are fairly high-end switches compared to
what people tend to use in homes and offices.

In many situations, people don't even need a manageable
switch. Once you start to exceed, say, 40 connections, a managed
switch becomes first useful and then necessity. When you need
multi-chassis failover and intra-switch links of more complexity
than "each desktop gets an 8 port gig-e switch with one used as
an uplink to the office switch", you need high-end switch
features.

-dsr-

Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

On Fri, 26 Jun 2020 15:41:13 -0400
Dan Ritter  wrote:

...

> To give an idea of what you might buy:
> 
> a firewall/router
> a switch
> a load-balancer
> 2 web servers
> a database server
> a mail server
> a general utility box with lots of storage to handle backups
> 
> All of those duties except the switch can reasonable be run on
> Debian servers. 

I'm curious, although I don't know much about, and have little
experience with, enterprise hardware. Am I correct in my understanding
that it is actually possible to run (more-or-less) Debian on a switch
by using OpenSwitch (OPX) on an Open Networking switch. I have no idea
if this would be cost-effective in the OP's situation - basic switches
are certainly a whole lot cheaper than the ones I looked at on the
OPX HCL.

Celejar

Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 01:27:05AM +1200, Richard Hector wrote:
> > I'll be original here. Try SunFire X-series (aka SunServer X). Somewhat
> > costly, and the hardware quality is a hit or miss in newer models, but
> > runs Debian stable like it was designed for it.
> 
> I'm a little unclear what you're suggesting here - Sun Fire and Sun
> Server seem to be both retired names (according to Wikipedia, anyway ...)

I'm suggesting x86-64 Intel server with an Oracle logo on it.
I agree to call it whatever they call it at Oracle these days be it
SunFire, SunServer or whatever.
Whenever said server(s) will be bought from the Oracle, a certain
partners or, say, Ebay - I don't see how it can be relevant here.

> Are you suggesting Oracle servers in general?

Yep. I can say a lot of bad things about HPE hardware (but I won't, it'll
be off-topic), and I can't say anything good about Lenovo (those IBM
X-series were not bad, but it was a long time ago). Also, last one is a
political thing, and this list is an unsuitable place for discussing
political things.
I could also mention Huawei, but I won't - it's a political thing too.
Oracle servers (five years ago, at least) tend to Just Work™, barring
that usual "half-year after the purchase" time period.

Anything else is at least one tier lower so why bother discussing it?

> Personally, I'd require a lot of convincing to use anything of theirs ...

They don't pay me for this, I don't work for them.
Their support (both software and hardware) could use an improvement (to
put it lightly), but the hardware itself haven't spoiled for the last
5-10 years or so.

Reco

Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

2020-06-29 Thread Richard Hector

On 27/06/20 8:02 am, Reco wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 26, 2020 at 08:34:07PM +0200, echo test wrote:
>> So, I want to know if It's a good idea to try using Debian in an enterprise
>> context, with hardwares like Dell EMC PowerEdge or Lenovo ThinkCenter which
>> seems to never mention that they support Debian.

> I'll be original here. Try SunFire X-series (aka SunServer X). Somewhat
> costly, and the hardware quality is a hit or miss in newer models, but
> runs Debian stable like it was designed for it.

I'm a little unclear what you're suggesting here - Sun Fire and Sun
Server seem to be both retired names (according to Wikipedia, anyway ...)

Are you suggesting Oracle servers in general?

Personally, I'd require a lot of convincing to use anything of theirs ...

I agree the Sun-era x86 servers were nice.

Richard

Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center

Miles Fidelman wrote: 
> Just to be clear... mdadm is NOT raid - it's an admin program for managing
> linux raid (md) devices.?? And then you need to worry about LVM (logical
> volume manager), and a network file system on top of them.

Just to be clear, you are being pedantic bordering on wrong here. This
is like saying "a hamburger is not ground beef patties, and then you
need to worry about vegetables and condiments".

mdadm is the administrative interface program for the kernel's md
subsystem. It is used generically as a synonym for "the kernel's
md subsystem" because for most people encountering them, they
are inextricably intertwined. 

The kernel's md subsystem manages RAID 0, 1, 4, 5, 6 and 10. It
also has a non-RAID linear mode, a container abstraction, and a
fault-simulation mode.

LVM is completely independent of the md subsystem, and can be
used with or without it. Some people love it. Some avoid it like
the plague -- oops. Some avoid it like rational people avoid the
plague.

Various network file systems are also completely independent of
the md subsystem.

ZFS is an integrated data storage system that presents N
filesystem and partition-equivalent views to the kernel. It is
independent of and an alternative to md and lvm. It offers a
semi-integrated NFS and CIFS export facility. Underneath, it
offers storage options including error-detection, compression, mirroring,
striping, RAID-5 and -6 style parity, read caching and write
caching. Only the error detection is mandatory.

-dsr-

Re: Advice on hardware server to use for small a dedicated data center