Re: install daemon without starting it
On Tue,07.Apr.09, 13:24:39, Barclay, Daniel wrote: Auto generated from what? From whatever contains any structured information to be read and added to README.Debian files if they remain partly non-structured as they currently are. The package contents can be obtained with dpkg. That lists only the uninterpreted, raw list of files. It doesn't distinguish between entry points vs. other artifacts, say: - commands meant for the user to execute vs. helper executables - root info files (command.gz) vs. associated ones (command1.gz, command2.gz) - commands meant for the user to run vs. daemons started automatically I'm not sure duplicating information that can be obtained otherwise is a good use of README.Debian Ok, many of them could be improved, ... Exactly. First we'd need a standard or some guidelines about what should be in there. It would be quite difficult to write a guideline that would fit for both samba and mpd. What kind of guidelines are you thinking about? My point was that it would be difficult to write one guideline to fit all. I'm thinking of things like: Include a Daemons started: line listing any daemon(s) started by installing the package. How would something like that not fit virtually every package? Because 95% (or more?) of the packages would have Daemons started: none Do you know about debtags? It's work in progress AFAIK, but it would address some of your points. (Yes, guidelines for pointers to documentation _might_ be a little harder to make fit all packages, since some have mostly just a manual page, some have many manual/info/etc. pages, and some packages are just documentation for something else.) Rather file bugs (preferably with suggested wording or even a patch) where you think it's necessary. Oh, come on. Wait for each instance of the problem instance of trying to work out a system (e.g., guidelines/standards) to avoid the problem in the first place? I usually find enough information in there to know were to look further. The user shouldn't have to dig for some of this information, especially not in different forms in different packages. Quite true, but what would be a good canonical place to put it? I think, since all this is package related, the package manager should be that agregator of information. For example aptitude can already display debtags and 'changelog.Debian'. Maybe you could file a whishlist bug to also display the README.Debian? Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: install daemon without starting it
Ken Irving wrote: On Tue, Apr 07, 2009 at 01:34:57PM -0400, Barclay, Daniel wrote: John Hasler wrote: Daniel writes: Debian packages should have some standard place to go to to see those latter kinds of information. /usr/share/doc/packagename contains README.debian, the upstream README, and any other documentation provided by upstream other than man pages and info files. Yes, I know. But there's little or no consistency, and I don't recall seeing one that said things like what daemons were started, or what commands are newly available. You're arguing what the policy should be. Debian is based on policy, but perhaps it's better to specify the minimum level of policy that results in a working system. What about usability? If system is working and had zero documentation, that certainly wouldn't be acceptable, so clearly some degree of usability is required. Obviously, the degree that is needed or desirable is arguable. What you want is a convenience for you, And other users. but an amount of work and necessary maintenance for many people, not to mention policing and bug-reporting to get all packages to comply. But that's just like for any other part of Debian policy. The information you seek is available. But frequently not without significant digging. To get a hint of 'what commands are available' I often do: $ dpkg -L | grep bin/ Yes, I know about that. But that doesn't tell you, say, which executables meant for you to run directly vs. which are internal, so you have to dig further for that. What is so hard to understand (or, rather, get across) about the value of conveying (conveniently) to the user the key aspects of what just changed about the system (what is now available) after installing a package? On Windows several generations back, when you installed a package, it typically left open the package's new program group folder (or something), so the use could see what (menu-based) commands were newly available from installing the package. Now (at least Windows 2000 and XP), installing a typical package adds the package's submenu at the end of the list, so, again, there's a known place the user can look to see what's newly available. (And some packages separate the primary programs or menu commands from others (e.g, those for configuration or uninstallation).) Obviously the details of those mechanisms don't apply (at least not directly) to Linux, but the high-level feature (making it easy to see the relevant changes) does. The source is available, e.g., $ apt-get source package so use it. Debian users are not supposed to have to look at the source to figure out what something does. (Debian policy requires that all packages have descriptions. Debian policy requires that all commands have manual pages, doesn't it?) File a bug if you find a problem with the documentation, scripts, code, etc. of a particular package, but be reasonable, and realize you're asking somebody to do work and pay attention to your issue. I'm trying to reduce the occurrence of problems, not just wait for each instance and then fix only that instance. Daniel -- (Plain text sometimes corrupted to HTML courtesy of Microsoft Exchange.) [F]
Re: install daemon without starting it
On Mon, Apr 06 2009, Barclay, Daniel wrote: Nuno Magalhães wrote: is it possible to install a daemon from a Debian package without having it automatically started afterwards? At the risk of starting a holy war, and kind of highjaking, shouldn't Debian *not* start just-installed daemons by default? Or at least ask while installing if such daemon is to be started automatically (like sshd does, i think)? Debian should at least make clear whether a daemon was configured to start automatically. This is the default behaviour, and thus should not be communicated on a per package basis. I would hate to be bombarded with such messages. Once would be adequate. Debian packages should probably have some kind of post-installation read-me file to tell you essential things about an installed package (e.g, the commands now available; the manual/info/etc. pages now avaible; daemons automatically started, or what remaining steps you need to perform manually before starting the daemon automatically.) Debian packages should have some standard place to go to to see those latter kinds of information. If it did, that place could also hold an indication of any daemons started (or installed but pending further configuration) by installing a package. This is what the package description is about, no? You uread the package description to see if you do or do not want tostart the daemon. manoj -- A Difficulty for Every Solution. Motto of the Federal Civil Service Manoj Srivastava sriva...@acm.org http://www.golden-gryphon.com/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: install daemon without starting it
Andrei Popescu wrote: On Mon,06.Apr.09, 13:21:49, Barclay, Daniel wrote: Andrei Popescu wrote: On Mon,06.Apr.09, 12:52:02, Barclay, Daniel wrote: Debian packages should have some standard place to go to to see those latter kinds of information. If it did, that place could also hold an indication of any daemons started (or installed but pending further configuration) by installing a package. Sounds like /usr/share/doc/package/README.Debian to me. Maybe, if it can be somewhat structured or auto-generated. Auto generated from what? From whatever contains any structured information to be read and added to README.Debian files if they remain partly non-structured as they currently are. The package contents can be obtained with dpkg. That lists only the uninterpreted, raw list of files. It doesn't distinguish between entry points vs. other artifacts, say: - commands meant for the user to execute vs. helper executables - root info files (command.gz) vs. associated ones (command1.gz, command2.gz) - commands meant for the user to run vs. daemons started automatically Ok, many of them could be improved, ... Exactly. First we'd need a standard or some guidelines about what should be in there. It would be quite difficult to write a guideline that would fit for both samba and mpd. What kind of guidelines are you thinking about? I'm thinking of things like: Include a Daemons started: line listing any daemon(s) started by installing the package. How would something like that not fit virtually every package? (Yes, guidelines for pointers to documentation _might_ be a little harder to make fit all packages, since some have mostly just a manual page, some have many manual/info/etc. pages, and some packages are just documentation for something else.) Rather file bugs (preferably with suggested wording or even a patch) where you think it's necessary. Oh, come on. Wait for each instance of the problem instance of trying to work out a system (e.g., guidelines/standards) to avoid the problem in the first place? I usually find enough information in there to know were to look further. The user shouldn't have to dig for some of this information, especially not in different forms in different packages. Daniel -- (Plain text sometimes corrupted to HTML courtesy of Microsoft Exchange.) [F]
Re: install daemon without starting it
John Hasler wrote: Daniel writes: Debian packages should have some standard place to go to to see those latter kinds of information. If it did, that place could also hold an indication of any daemons started (or installed but pending further configuration) by installing a package. /usr/share/doc/packagename contains README.debian, the upstream README, and any other documentation provided by upstream other than man pages and info files. Yes, I know. But there's little or no consistency, and I don't recall seeing one that said things like what daemons were started, or what commands are newly available. Daniel -- (Plain text sometimes corrupted to HTML courtesy of Microsoft Exchange.) [F]
Re: install daemon without starting it
Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Mon, Apr 06 2009, Barclay, Daniel wrote: Debian packages should probably have some kind of post-installation read-me file to tell you essential things about an installed package (e.g, the commands now available; the manual/info/etc. pages now avaible; daemons automatically started, or what remaining steps you need to perform manually before starting the daemon automatically.) Debian packages should have some standard place to go to to see those latter kinds of information. If it did, that place could also hold an indication of any daemons started (or installed but pending further configuration) by installing a package. This is what the package description is about, no? No, it's not. The package description is much more superfical than that. Daniel -- (Plain text sometimes corrupted to HTML courtesy of Microsoft Exchange.) [F]
Re: install daemon without starting it
On Tue, Apr 07, 2009 at 01:34:57PM -0400, Barclay, Daniel wrote: John Hasler wrote: Daniel writes: Debian packages should have some standard place to go to to see those latter kinds of information. If it did, that place could also hold an indication of any daemons started (or installed but pending further configuration) by installing a package. /usr/share/doc/packagename contains README.debian, the upstream README, and any other documentation provided by upstream other than man pages and info files. Yes, I know. But there's little or no consistency, and I don't recall seeing one that said things like what daemons were started, or what commands are newly available. You're arguing what the policy should be. Debian is based on policy, but perhaps it's better to specify the minimum level of policy that results in a working system. What you want is a convenience for you, but an amount of work and necessary maintenance for many people, not to mention policing and bug-reporting to get all packages to comply. The information you seek is available. To get a hint of 'what commands are available' I often do: $ dpkg -L | grep bin/ The source is available, e.g., $ apt-get source package so use it. Check out the init.d script to see what it does, what it runs, then look at those scripts, etc. File a bug if you find a problem with the documentation, scripts, code, etc. of a particular package, but be reasonable, and realize you're asking somebody to do work and pay attention to your issue. Ken -- Ken Irving -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: install daemon without starting it
On Thu, Apr 02 2009, Dave Ewart wrote: On Thursday, 02.04.2009 at 10:12 -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote: At the risk of starting a holy war, and kind of highjaking, shouldn't Debian *not* start just-installed daemons by default? Or at least ask while installing if such daemon is to be started automatically (like sshd does, i think)? The argument is that if the user did not want the daemon started, they would not have installed the package. And while there can be a debconf question about it starting, the questions should be of low priority (I insatlled the package, didn't I? why ask me over and over whether I really really want it running?), and the default should be yes. It's not always clear. Sometimes, you don't know until post-installation that a package includes a daemon at all. Hmm. Then the description might be seen to be lacking. Please file a wishlist bug, with your suggestions. In any case, if the maintainer thinks most people want to run the daemon, and you are in a minority, you will have to arange for the daemon not to be started. This is why Debian has debconf -- so that any critical configuration should be done at install, and there should be reasonable, non-obnoxious defaults set by the package anyway. Well, that's also unclear. Running a daemon with defaults is not always desired, and may in fact cause problems. Sure. But your opinion might not be the majority opinion. Can't please everyone. I must admit that I like the OpenBSD approach here. Installing a package just installs the binaries. At the end of the installation, it says something like: To make the daemon start at each boot, add the following to /etc/rc.local: if [ -x /usr/local/sbin/somedaemon ]; then /usr/local/sbin/somedaemon fi This may be a less convenient approach, but it does meet the criterion of Least Surprise: a daemon won't be started automatically before you have a chance to configure it, for example. I would be very surprised if I installed a package and it was not immediately functional, and left me with obscure, unguided configuration to do. I expect Debian packages to ship daemons with sane defaults, and for the daemons to work. If I wanted *BSD, I know where to find them. manoj -- Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist ought to have his head examined. Samuel Goldwyn Manoj Srivastava sriva...@acm.org http://www.golden-gryphon.com/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: install daemon without starting it
On Thu, Apr 02 2009, Celejar wrote: On Thu, 02 Apr 2009 10:12:54 -0500 Manoj Srivastava sriva...@ieee.org wrote: ... There are mechanisms by which the site admin can tailor the selection of daemons that start -- but the default should be I installed it, and I installed it for a reason, so I want the thing running. But perhaps I don't want it to run until after I modify the default configuration. I may install a web server, but I may want it to serve only over a LAN interface, and not over my public interface. I know I can block this at the firewall, but I want defense in depth, and I'm suggesting that there can be perfectly common use cases where I want the thing installed, and eventually even running, but not just yet, or right now. Then, knowing the system default, you take action not to let the server start. Or you modify the config file asap (often before the system finishes the upgrade. See, there are two equally viable options here. Use debconf to configure the daemon, so most people can install, answer questions, and be on their merry way --- or not start and let the user configure it as they will. Some like it one way, some the other. What the maintainr has to judge is which set of users to please, since you can't please everyone. -- The universe is all a spin-off of the Big Bang. Manoj Srivastava sriva...@acm.org http://www.golden-gryphon.com/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: install daemon without starting it
On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 03:44:11 -0500 Manoj Srivastava sriva...@ieee.org wrote: ... See, there are two equally viable options here. Use debconf to configure the daemon, so most people can install, answer questions, and be on their merry way --- or not start and let the user configure it as they will. Some like it one way, some the other. What the maintainr has to judge is which set of users to please, since you can't please everyone. But what harm would there be in inserting a debconf question asking the user if the daemon should be started automatically? That should please all users, except for those who will be really annoyed by having to answer one additional question ... Celejar -- mailmin.sourceforge.net - remote access via secure (OpenPGP) email ssuds.sourceforge.net - A Simple Sudoku Solver and Generator -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: install daemon without starting it
Nuno Magalhães wrote: is it possible to install a daemon from a Debian package without having it automatically started afterwards? At the risk of starting a holy war, and kind of highjaking, shouldn't Debian *not* start just-installed daemons by default? Or at least ask while installing if such daemon is to be started automatically (like sshd does, i think)? Debian should at least make clear whether a daemon was configured to start automatically. Debian packages should probably have some kind of post-installation read-me file to tell you essential things about an installed package (e.g, the commands now available; the manual/info/etc. pages now avaible; daemons automatically started, or what remaining steps you need to perform manually before starting the daemon automatically.) Remember source tarballs? They have to have a read-me file to tell you how the build the software. The read-me files also typically tell you what commands are available once you build and install the software, and point to documentation. Debian packages should have some standard place to go to to see those latter kinds of information. If it did, that place could also hold an indication of any daemons started (or installed but pending further configuration) by installing a package. Daniel -- (Plain text sometimes corrupted to HTML courtesy of Microsoft Exchange.) [F]
Re: install daemon without starting it
On Mon,06.Apr.09, 12:00:43, Celejar wrote: But what harm would there be in inserting a debconf question asking the user if the daemon should be started automatically? That should please all users, except for those who will be really annoyed by having to answer one additional question ... ...and all those who don't even know what a daemon is (OMG: the computer is possessed by demons!), but expect Debian to Just Work? Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: install daemon without starting it
On Mon,06.Apr.09, 12:52:02, Barclay, Daniel wrote: Debian packages should have some standard place to go to to see those latter kinds of information. If it did, that place could also hold an indication of any daemons started (or installed but pending further configuration) by installing a package. Sounds like /usr/share/doc/package/README.Debian to me. Ok, many of them could be improved, but I doubt the maintainer would reject a good patch ;) Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: install daemon without starting it
Andrei Popescu wrote: On Mon,06.Apr.09, 12:52:02, Barclay, Daniel wrote: Debian packages should have some standard place to go to to see those latter kinds of information. If it did, that place could also hold an indication of any daemons started (or installed but pending further configuration) by installing a package. Sounds like /usr/share/doc/package/README.Debian to me. Maybe, if it can be somewhat structured or auto-generated. Ok, many of them could be improved, ... Exactly. First we'd need a standard or some guidelines about what should be in there. Daniel -- (Plain text sometimes corrupted to HTML courtesy of Microsoft Exchange.) [F]
[OT] Re: install daemon without starting it
On Mon, 6 Apr 2009 20:05:01 +0300 Andrei Popescu andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon,06.Apr.09, 12:00:43, Celejar wrote: But what harm would there be in inserting a debconf question asking the user if the daemon should be started automatically? That should please all users, except for those who will be really annoyed by having to answer one additional question ... ...and all those who don't even know what a daemon is (OMG: the computer is possessed by demons!), but expect Debian to Just Work? Of course everyone knows what daemons are. Isn't a demonstration of Nethack facility a requirement for a license to access the internets? Celejar -- mailmin.sourceforge.net - remote access via secure (OpenPGP) email ssuds.sourceforge.net - A Simple Sudoku Solver and Generator -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: install daemon without starting it
Daniel writes: Debian packages should have some standard place to go to to see those latter kinds of information. If it did, that place could also hold an indication of any daemons started (or installed but pending further configuration) by installing a package. /usr/share/doc/packagename contains README.debian, the upstream README, and any other documentation provided by upstream other than man pages and info files. -- John Hasler -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: [OT] Re: install daemon without starting it
On Mon,06.Apr.09, 12:00:43, Celejar wrote: But what harm would there be in inserting a debconf question asking the user if the daemon should be started automatically? That should please all users, except for those who will be really annoyed by having to answer one additional question ... I second that. ...and all those who don't even know what a daemon is (OMG: the computer is possessed by demons!), but expect Debian to Just Work? Those are probably using Ubuntu or Redmond stuff. Nuno Magalhães LU#484677 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: [OT] Re: install daemon without starting it
On Mon,06.Apr.09, 18:54:20, Nuno Magalhães wrote: ...and all those who don't even know what a daemon is (OMG: the computer is possessed by demons!), but expect Debian to Just Work? Those are probably using Ubuntu or Redmond stuff. Not if I did the install! My mother's laptop runs stable ;) Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: install daemon without starting it
On Mon,06.Apr.09, 13:21:49, Barclay, Daniel wrote: Andrei Popescu wrote: On Mon,06.Apr.09, 12:52:02, Barclay, Daniel wrote: Debian packages should have some standard place to go to to see those latter kinds of information. If it did, that place could also hold an indication of any daemons started (or installed but pending further configuration) by installing a package. Sounds like /usr/share/doc/package/README.Debian to me. Maybe, if it can be somewhat structured or auto-generated. Auto generated from what? The package contents can be obtained with dpkg. Ok, many of them could be improved, ... Exactly. First we'd need a standard or some guidelines about what should be in there. It would be quite difficult to write a guideline that would fit for both samba and mpd. Rather file bugs (preferably with suggested wording or even a patch) where you think it's necessary. I usually find enough information in there to know were to look further. Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: install daemon without starting it
On Wed, 01 Apr 2009 17:23:09 +0200, Jukka Salmi wrote: Hello, is it possible to install a daemon from a Debian package without having it automatically started afterwards? What I want to do is to install samba, but neither smbd nor nbmd should be started until I had a chance to edit smb.conf(5) manually... TIA, Jukka Just after the package install, the daemon is launched. You will have to make a : /etc/init.d/ stop Some daemon come with a /etc/default/ file in which you can set a parameter to no,false,... to not launch the daemon at boot time. May be samba comes with this sort of file and i can't test now. Regards, Laurent. -- Laurent Guignard, Registered as user #301590 with the Linux Counter Site : http://www.famille-guignard.org Blog : http://blog.famille-guignard.org Projet : http://sicontact.sourceforge.net GULL de Villefranche sur Saône : http://www.cagull.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: install daemon without starting it
is it possible to install a daemon from a Debian package without having it automatically started afterwards? At the risk of starting a holy war, and kind of highjaking, shouldn't Debian *not* start just-installed daemons by default? Or at least ask while installing if such daemon is to be started automatically (like sshd does, i think)? Nuno Magalhães LU#484677 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: install daemon without starting it
2009/4/2 Nuno Magalhães nunomagalh...@eu.ipp.pt: is it possible to install a daemon from a Debian package without having it automatically started afterwards? At the risk of starting a holy war, and kind of highjaking, shouldn't Debian *not* start just-installed daemons by default? Or at least ask while installing if such daemon is to be started automatically (like sshd does, i think)? Pretty sure openssh-server is started by default. Adrian -- 24x7x365 != 24x7x52 Stupid or bad maths? erno hm. I've lost a machine.. literally _lost_. it responds to ping, it works completely, I just can't figure out where in my apartment it is. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: install daemon without starting it
On Thu,02.Apr.09, 09:26:56, Nuno Magalhães wrote: is it possible to install a daemon from a Debian package without having it automatically started afterwards? At the risk of starting a holy war, and kind of highjaking, shouldn't Debian *not* start just-installed daemons by default? Or at least ask while installing if such daemon is to be started automatically (like sshd does, i think)? See the thread starting with http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2009/04/msg00017.html Regards, Andrei -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: install daemon without starting it
On Thu, Apr 02 2009, Nuno Magalhães wrote: is it possible to install a daemon from a Debian package without having it automatically started afterwards? At the risk of starting a holy war, and kind of highjaking, shouldn't Debian *not* start just-installed daemons by default? Or at least ask while installing if such daemon is to be started automatically (like sshd does, i think)? The argument is that if the user did not want the daemon started, they would not have installed the package. And while there can be a debconf question about it starting, the questions should be of low priority (I insatlled the package, didn't I? why ask me over and over whether I really really want it running?), and the default should be yes. This is why Debian has debconf -- so that any critical configuration should be done at install, and there should be reasonable, non-obnoxious defaults set by the package anyway. There are mechanisms by which the site admin can tailor the selection of daemons that start -- but the default should be I installed it, and I installed it for a reason, so I want the thing running. Or so the reasoning goes. manoj -- Journalism is literature in a hurry. Matthew Arnold Manoj Srivastava sriva...@acm.org http://www.golden-gryphon.com/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: install daemon without starting it
On Thursday, 02.04.2009 at 10:12 -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote: At the risk of starting a holy war, and kind of highjaking, shouldn't Debian *not* start just-installed daemons by default? Or at least ask while installing if such daemon is to be started automatically (like sshd does, i think)? The argument is that if the user did not want the daemon started, they would not have installed the package. And while there can be a debconf question about it starting, the questions should be of low priority (I insatlled the package, didn't I? why ask me over and over whether I really really want it running?), and the default should be yes. It's not always clear. Sometimes, you don't know until post-installation that a package includes a daemon at all. This is why Debian has debconf -- so that any critical configuration should be done at install, and there should be reasonable, non-obnoxious defaults set by the package anyway. Well, that's also unclear. Running a daemon with defaults is not always desired, and may in fact cause problems. I must admit that I like the OpenBSD approach here. Installing a package just installs the binaries. At the end of the installation, it says something like: To make the daemon start at each boot, add the following to /etc/rc.local: if [ -x /usr/local/sbin/somedaemon ]; then /usr/local/sbin/somedaemon fi This may be a less convenient approach, but it does meet the criterion of Least Surprise: a daemon won't be started automatically before you have a chance to configure it, for example. Dave. -- Dave Ewart da...@ceu.ox.ac.uk Computing Manager, Cancer Epidemiology Unit University of Oxford / Cancer Research UK PGP: CC70 1883 BD92 E665 B840 118B 6E94 2CFD 694D E370 Get key from http://www.ceu.ox.ac.uk/~davee/davee-ceu-ox-ac-uk.asc N 51.7516, W 1.2152 signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: install daemon without starting it
Sven Joachim -- debian-user (2009-04-01 18:07:34 +0200): On 2009-04-01 17:23 +0200, Jukka Salmi wrote: Hello, is it possible to install a daemon from a Debian package without having it automatically started afterwards? Temporarily create an executable /usr/sbin/policy-rc.d that exits with a value of 101, e.g. the following shell script: #!/bin/sh exit 101 This tells invoke-rc.d to disable all actions, see /usr/share/doc/sysv-rc/README.invoke-rc.d.gz. What I want to do is to install samba, but neither smbd nor nbmd should be started until I had a chance to edit smb.conf(5) manually... Just don't forget to remove the policy-rc.d script afterwards. Thanks, this seems to work fine. Regards, Jukka -- bashian roulette: $ ((RANDOM%6)) || rm -rf ~ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: install daemon without starting it
On Thu, 02 Apr 2009 10:12:54 -0500 Manoj Srivastava sriva...@ieee.org wrote: ... There are mechanisms by which the site admin can tailor the selection of daemons that start -- but the default should be I installed it, and I installed it for a reason, so I want the thing running. But perhaps I don't want it to run until after I modify the default configuration. I may install a web server, but I may want it to serve only over a LAN interface, and not over my public interface. I know I can block this at the firewall, but I want defense in depth, and I'm suggesting that there can be perfectly common use cases where I want the thing installed, and eventually even running, but not just yet, or right now. Celejar -- mailmin.sourceforge.net - remote access via secure (OpenPGP) email ssuds.sourceforge.net - A Simple Sudoku Solver and Generator -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: install daemon without starting it
On Thu, Apr 02, 2009 at 02:23:38PM -0400, Celejar wrote: On Thu, 02 Apr 2009 10:12:54 -0500 Manoj Srivastava wrote: There are mechanisms by which the site admin can tailor the selection of daemons that start -- but the default should be I installed it, and I installed it for a reason, so I want the thing running. But perhaps I don't want it to run until after I modify the default configuration. I may install a web server, but I may want it to serve only over a LAN interface, and not over my public interface. I know I can block this at the firewall, but I want defense in depth, and I'm suggesting that there can be perfectly common use cases where I want the thing installed, and eventually even running, but not just yet, or right now. The package maintainer makes the determination of whether a package runs by default or not. In my experience web servers and firewalls don't run, probably for reasons such as you describe, and the admin needs to go in and configure them, or in some cases edit a setting under /etc/default/package or elsewhere. Many packages do run by default, and I appreciate and have never had a problem with that. It would probably be reasonable to file a bug for a package that one thinks does the wrong thing (first checking for existing bugs of course), or maybe as a wishlist item. I flagged the first response to this thread as a possibly useful trick for the event that I might want to prevent a package from starting automatically, but likely will never use it. Ken -- Ken Irving -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: install daemon without starting it
suggesting that there can be perfectly common use cases where I want the thing installed, and eventually even running, but not just yet, or right now. Or not by root (e.g. mpd). Stefan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
install daemon without starting it
Hello, is it possible to install a daemon from a Debian package without having it automatically started afterwards? What I want to do is to install samba, but neither smbd nor nbmd should be started until I had a chance to edit smb.conf(5) manually... TIA, Jukka -- bashian roulette: $ ((RANDOM%6)) || rm -rf ~ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: install daemon without starting it
On 2009-04-01 17:23 +0200, Jukka Salmi wrote: Hello, is it possible to install a daemon from a Debian package without having it automatically started afterwards? Temporarily create an executable /usr/sbin/policy-rc.d that exits with a value of 101, e.g. the following shell script: #!/bin/sh exit 101 This tells invoke-rc.d to disable all actions, see /usr/share/doc/sysv-rc/README.invoke-rc.d.gz. What I want to do is to install samba, but neither smbd nor nbmd should be started until I had a chance to edit smb.conf(5) manually... Just don't forget to remove the policy-rc.d script afterwards. Sven -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
