Re: systemdq [Solved]
On Du, 29 dec 19, 14:57:19, ghe wrote: > > Amazing. I'm a self-taught *nix geek, but I've never seen a release > without SSH. Not since I figured out what SSH is, anyway. Makes me > question the sanity of the otherwise quite rational 'Pi folks. Depending on what you mean by "release" Debian doesn't include SSH by default. One has to explicitly request it during the installation process. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: systemdq [Solved]
On Du, 29 dec 19, 20:21:48, Reco wrote: > On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 09:40:29AM -0700, ghe wrote: > > Somebody just forgot to enable SSH while preparing the Raspian Buster > > release, it looks like. > > Nope. It was deliberate - [1] (note the "ssh" part). > > > > And I didn't know enough about systemd to > > realize that was what the error message was trying to tell me. > > Reading error messages is not a viable substitute to reading the > documentation. At least the distribution one. > > Small "problems" such as this "ssh-sshd" discrepancy is the reason > Raspbian is frowned upon here. It's close to Debian yes, except for such > small yet fundamental parts, which makes it different to Debian. Except that I was looking at the unit file in Debian ;) The only difference appears to be that sshd is disabled by default in Raspbian. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: systemdq [Solved]
On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 02:57:19PM -0700, ghe wrote: > On 12/29/19 10:21 AM, Reco wrote: > > > On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 09:40:29AM -0700, ghe wrote: > >> Somebody just forgot to enable SSH while preparing the Raspian Buster > >> release, it looks like. > > > > Nope. It was deliberate - [1] (note the "ssh" part). > > Amazing. I'm a self-taught *nix geek, but I've never seen a release > without SSH. Ubuntu folks used to ship their desktop distribution without a ssh daemon. Many LiveCD distributions do the same. > Not since I figured out what SSH is, anyway. Makes me > question the sanity of the otherwise quite rational 'Pi folks. If you ship a distribution with a well-known username/password pair, then giving a remote access to a user by default is not a good idea. Especially if your distribution is "user-firendly". > > Reading error messages is not a viable substitute to reading the > > documentation. At least the distribution one. > > Look. The problem was with the lame systemd error message. It didn't > provide enough info to figure out how to correct my action. And I did > look for dox. I looked for systemd commands, and didn't find anything > useful. That's why I asked the list. What I needed was a little help > from somebody who knows systemd. Systemd is an enigmatic beast, written by enterprise folks (RH/IBM) for the enterprise folks to solve enterprise needs. So of course error messages told just about anything but the problem you were facing. > When I try to use a CLI program from the 'apt' collection as a user, the > error message says 'Are you root?' -- useful information. ... and "apt" was written by the humans for the humans. The difference is obvious. > If the systemd message had said something like "A unit file isn't > enabled' or something like that, I probably would have found the > solution. After a couple responses from the list, I had an idea of how > to look up a solution. And in 5 minutes, all was well. See above. > > Small "problems" such as this "ssh-sshd" discrepancy is the reason > > Raspbian is frowned upon here. It's close to Debian yes, except for such > > small yet fundamental parts, which makes it different to Debian. > > I didn't know that. They claim it's the same (with a peculiar /boot > directory), and in the time I've been using 'Pis, I've never seen one do > anything different from a Debian box. The people see ".deb" file extension and think "gee, it's Debian". It's not. Reco
Re: systemdq [Solved]
On Sun 29 Dec 2019 at 14:57:19 (-0700), ghe wrote: > On 12/29/19 10:21 AM, Reco wrote: > > On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 09:40:29AM -0700, ghe wrote: > >> Somebody just forgot to enable SSH while preparing the Raspian Buster > >> release, it looks like. > > > > Nope. It was deliberate - [1] (note the "ssh" part). > > Amazing. I'm a self-taught *nix geek, but I've never seen a release > without SSH. Not since I figured out what SSH is, anyway. Makes me > question the sanity of the otherwise quite rational 'Pi folks. > > > Reading error messages is not a viable substitute to reading the > > documentation. At least the distribution one. > > Look. The problem was with the lame systemd error message. It didn't > provide enough info to figure out how to correct my action. And I did > look for dox. I looked for systemd commands, and didn't find anything > useful. That's why I asked the list. What I needed was a little help > from somebody who knows systemd. > > When I try to use a CLI program from the 'apt' collection as a user, the > error message says 'Are you root?' -- useful information. > > If the systemd message had said something like "A unit file isn't > enabled' or something like that, I probably would have found the > solution. After a couple responses from the list, I had an idea of how > to look up a solution. And in 5 minutes, all was well. > > > Small "problems" such as this "ssh-sshd" discrepancy is the reason > > Raspbian is frowned upon here. It's close to Debian yes, except for such > > small yet fundamental parts, which makes it different to Debian. > > I didn't know that. They claim it's the same (with a peculiar /boot > directory), and in the time I've been using 'Pis, I've never seen one do > anything different from a Debian box. > > With this trouble, though, there was no difference between Debian and > Raspian. Same systemd, same .system files, same SSH, same systemd > command to get it started. > > Why it was disabled is a matter for another discussion... I thought the answer was pretty obvious and is explained on their Security Page which has a link on [1] (the earlier reference): https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/configuration/security.md It appears that one of the important differences between Debian and PIs is that you install a unique OS with Debian, in contrast to PIs which receive a cloned image. So an installed, but un-reconfigured, PI is completely insecure: sshd would be a wide-open invitation. Cheers, David.
Re: systemdq [Solved]
On 12/29/19 10:21 AM, Reco wrote: > On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 09:40:29AM -0700, ghe wrote: >> Somebody just forgot to enable SSH while preparing the Raspian Buster >> release, it looks like. > > Nope. It was deliberate - [1] (note the "ssh" part). Amazing. I'm a self-taught *nix geek, but I've never seen a release without SSH. Not since I figured out what SSH is, anyway. Makes me question the sanity of the otherwise quite rational 'Pi folks. > Reading error messages is not a viable substitute to reading the > documentation. At least the distribution one. Look. The problem was with the lame systemd error message. It didn't provide enough info to figure out how to correct my action. And I did look for dox. I looked for systemd commands, and didn't find anything useful. That's why I asked the list. What I needed was a little help from somebody who knows systemd. When I try to use a CLI program from the 'apt' collection as a user, the error message says 'Are you root?' -- useful information. If the systemd message had said something like "A unit file isn't enabled' or something like that, I probably would have found the solution. After a couple responses from the list, I had an idea of how to look up a solution. And in 5 minutes, all was well. > Small "problems" such as this "ssh-sshd" discrepancy is the reason > Raspbian is frowned upon here. It's close to Debian yes, except for such > small yet fundamental parts, which makes it different to Debian. I didn't know that. They claim it's the same (with a peculiar /boot directory), and in the time I've been using 'Pis, I've never seen one do anything different from a Debian box. With this trouble, though, there was no difference between Debian and Raspian. Same systemd, same .system files, same SSH, same systemd command to get it started. Why it was disabled is a matter for another discussion... -- Glenn English
Re: systemdq [Solved]
On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 09:40:29AM -0700, ghe wrote: > Somebody just forgot to enable SSH while preparing the Raspian Buster > release, it looks like. Nope. It was deliberate - [1] (note the "ssh" part). > And I didn't know enough about systemd to > realize that was what the error message was trying to tell me. Reading error messages is not a viable substitute to reading the documentation. At least the distribution one. Small "problems" such as this "ssh-sshd" discrepancy is the reason Raspbian is frowned upon here. It's close to Debian yes, except for such small yet fundamental parts, which makes it different to Debian. Reco [1] https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/remote-access/ssh/
Re: systemdq [Solved]
On 2019-12-29, ghe wrote: > On 12/29/19 7:07 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > >> The correct solution to your problem would have been: >> >> systemctl enable ssh > > Exactly. > Right. Thanks for clearing that up! -- "J'ai pour me guérir du jugement des autres toute la distance qui me sépare de moi." Antonin Artaud
Re: systemdq [Solved]
On 12/29/19 7:07 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote: > The correct solution to your problem would have been: > > systemctl enable ssh Exactly. The ssh.service files are identical on Debian Buster (this box) and on Raspian Buster (the RPi4 over there). As is the list of ssh* files -- was before I created sshd.service on the RPi, anyway. Somebody just forgot to enable SSH while preparing the Raspian Buster release, it looks like. And I didn't know enough about systemd to realize that was what the error message was trying to tell me. -- Glenn English
Re: systemdq [Solved]
On Sb, 28 dec 19, 15:07:27, ghe wrote: > Trivial in retrospect. > > There were several ssh* files in /lib/systemd/service. None named sshd*. > I copied the one named ssh.service to sshd.service, enabled it, > rebooted, and there is was. For the archives, the Debian package only ships the unit 'ssh.service' (in line with '/etc/init.d/ssh'), which contains an 'Alias=sshd'. As per systemd.unit(5) aliases are only effective when the unit is enabled. The correct solution to your problem would have been: systemctl enable ssh Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: systemdq [Solved]
On Sb, 28 dec 19, 15:07:27, ghe wrote: > Trivial in retrospect. > > There were several ssh* files in /lib/systemd/service. None named sshd*. > I copied the one named ssh.service to sshd.service, enabled it, > rebooted, and there is was. > > An interesting question is why things are different in Raspian Stretch Because they can :) > on a 3+. For the time being, I'll just blame the RPi4 OS/motherboard. Or me. Hardware doesn't matter here. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: systemdq [Solved]
Trivial in retrospect. There were several ssh* files in /lib/systemd/service. None named sshd*. I copied the one named ssh.service to sshd.service, enabled it, rebooted, and there is was. An interesting question is why things are different in Raspian Stretch on a 3+. For the time being, I'll just blame the RPi4 OS/motherboard. Or me. Thanks all. -- Glenn English
