Re: the importance of defaults ( was: Debian default desktop environment )
On Sun, Apr 13, 2014 at 6:51 AM, Chris Bannister cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz wrote: On Sat, Apr 12, 2014 at 12:17:47PM +0200, alberto fuentes wrote: tl;dr http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/tldr In this case I used it like, my mail is just my own opinion and if you dont want to read the mail of yet another skewed opinion, at least watch the presentation that is the interesting part. Its the subject of the mail as well, the importance of defaults. which is pretty objective I've always considered Debian to be closer to the NetBSD goals and objectives and the derivatives closer to the PC-BSD goals and objectives. I believe this distinction is important and is currently the source of contention within the Debian project. Thoughts? Yeah, well, no default desktop at all and make user pick one is another option with a lot of supporters. I agree is bikeshedding in the debian context since the goals of the project are others like you suggest. Give the user more responsability... OTOH, the features which attract some users could be the very features which scare others away. Its just a default. Power users can still dont install desktop or the one they like. This default wont scare anybody away. It only has the potential to attract more new users that have a first contact if at all. I do think defaults are powerful and to have users is very important as well. Among the leechers there are the 2% of new contributors And I dont think we should be disruptive in the transition to jessie This mail was intended for another list anyway. Sorry it ended up here in debian-user -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CALkubT72ZY=z_amvfuvzubsfwtcbcc9nmhpdijvmkgn391s...@mail.gmail.com
Re: the importance of defaults ( was: Debian default desktop environment )
On 20140413_1651+1200, Chris Bannister wrote: On Sat, Apr 12, 2014 at 12:17:47PM +0200, alberto fuentes wrote: tl;dr http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/tldr My point is that gnome3 is even more disruptive than unity. Do we want to attract users or scare them away? Neither. I suggest that the lack of one option doesn't automatically imply the other. OTOH, the features which attract some users could be the very features which scare others away. Consider NetBSD vs PC-BSD https://www.netbsd.org/./about/ http://www.pcbsd.org/en/about/ I've always considered Debian to be closer to the NetBSD goals and objectives and the derivatives closer to the PC-BSD goals and objectives. I believe this distinction is important and is currently the source of contention within the Debian project. Thoughts? Defaults are important, but so are people. My discovery of Debian came in the days of 'Y2K'. I think my first install of Debian was Potato. Coming from distributions of RedHat purchased in a red box at a retail store, it was a revelation. What impressed me about Debian then was that the people giving answers on debian-user seemed to be real, knowledgeable 'SysAdmins', but without the anger, people who were clearly able to help, and clearly hoping that the questioner would succeeded, not just go away quickly. I had already been exposed to big, 'main frame' computers in my work in Physics research, and had recently retired. I had some thought of learning the internals of how computers worked as a retirement hobby. Compared to Red Hat, back then, there was much less frustration in getting useful help, and, for me more importantly, the help came with some education. I remember reading the File Hierarchy Standard (FHS). It must have been suggested to me in the answer to one of my questions. Otherwise, I would never have found it. I began to develop an idea of the organization that was developing inside the Debian organization. To me it seemed that the people had a shared view of how Debian might take over the world, and they realized that they needed more people to join their ranks. Yes, defaults are important, but, in this context, namely a reply to a request for opinion about the value of defaults, I think 'default' is really 'context'. That is to say the default for a decision or an action is determined by the context. Now the context is very different from what it was in the time of Potato. But for Debian, there is still the organizational imperative of recruiting and training the next generation. There is so much more work to be done. The organization has to be so much larger. The people 'at the top' have to be in touch with what is needed in so many new issues that never troubled Debian way back when... When I read OP's post, I took it to be a comment on the contending 'desk tops', and that people were worrying that somebody else's desk top would win top billing (i.e. default) position. If desk-tops are in an alphabetically ordered list, my preference will surely lose, but so be it. The tradition of Debian is that so long as a qualified maintainer can be found for a package, that package will not be dropped, just because it not appropriate for some view of the modern computer market context. But maybe I shouldn't be so complacient. Maybe I should be afraid, very afraid. Oh well, -- Paul E Condon pecon...@mesanetworks.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140413180034.ga4...@big.lan.gnu
the importance of defaults ( was: Debian default desktop environment )
tl;dr go to [0] On Thu, Apr 10, 2014 at 1:06 PM, Ghislain Vaillant ghisv...@gmail.com wrote: My vote would be on GNOME 3 classic for now, but XFCE with sensible and visually appealing defaults would do it for me too. You are all facing different experiences with end-users because end-users are probably different. Some likes shiny, others like useful, some are computer illiterate, others are experts, most are in between I had to leave gnome with gnome3 because it disrupted my workflow so much i couldn't cope In my case I like shiny but not at the cost of useful. xfce4 felt like a less polished gnome2 but at least it didn't disrupt my workflow. Some numbers with my free interpretation from ubuntu popcon: unity is installed in 605_209 machines, but its used regularly only by 46_210 Thats a very low number by all metrics for a default desktop [0]. People dislike it. People dislike disruptive My point is that gnome3 is even more disruptive than unity. Do we want to attract users or scare them away? Those who like disruptive desktops will still be able to do it by install it them. The next less disruptive thing after gnome2 is xfce. I used ubuntu instead of debian to make my point because i think is more representative for several reasons: - their numbers are one order of magnitude bigger than debian's - the user base is more average than debian's (its debatable what average even means) [0] Please watch this ted talk about the importance of defaults http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_ariely_asks_are_we_in_control_of_our_own_decisions -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/calkubt4yan+-bpnzjgdfiwvrncdc1g5wnfkl6sv4ixd3iop...@mail.gmail.com
Re: the importance of defaults ( was: Debian default desktop environment )
On Sat, Apr 12, 2014 at 12:17:47PM +0200, alberto fuentes wrote: tl;dr http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/tldr My point is that gnome3 is even more disruptive than unity. Do we want to attract users or scare them away? Neither. I suggest that the lack of one option doesn't automatically imply the other. OTOH, the features which attract some users could be the very features which scare others away. Consider NetBSD vs PC-BSD https://www.netbsd.org/./about/ http://www.pcbsd.org/en/about/ I've always considered Debian to be closer to the NetBSD goals and objectives and the derivatives closer to the PC-BSD goals and objectives. I believe this distinction is important and is currently the source of contention within the Debian project. Thoughts? -- If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140413045140.GB15184@tal
