Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
On Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 04:51:32PM -0400, David Raleigh Arnold wrote: The mouse is a big deal with any editor. Emacs and Xemacs fail utterly to take full advantage of the mouse, or even of the pc101 keyboard. They don't even use the delete key in a sane manner. I agree - although from a pure usability perspective, an editor *should* be workable without the mouse at all. By definition, while using an editor, your hands will naturally be on the keyboard. Having to move your hand from the keyboard to the mouse should be unnecessary to accomplish any given task. However, if someone wants to use the mouse for something, I don't think that should be denied - as long as a keyboard-based alternative exists. Sorry to have upset you. Scrollbars belong on the left. ;-) How so? I'm interested in hearing the usability basis for this. Not that I disagree - but it seems more natural for me to have a scrollbar on the right-hand side of the window. I do recognize, however, that many older *nix apps (emacs, xterm, etc...) default to having the scrollbar on the left. I'm just curious as to the reasons behind it =) -b3
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink
On Thu, Apr 12, 2001 at 10:48:57PM -0400, - wrote: I don't know your parents well enough to comment on the bastard part, but if you want to take without giving, that pretty much is the textbook definition of selfish. What does this wise ass expect someone who knows very little about Linux to contribute to the Linux community? Isn't describing the faults in itself a contribution? Who knows the problems a beginner has better than the beginner? there was nothing unique or particularly insightful from this ranting weenie whose message was stop what you're doing and write better documents for me, right now. cmopare that with brian's recent the documentation is sparse, maybe we need to come together and work on this... Contrast this guy's attitude with that of others we see on the list. What is he contributing? the one who issued the textbook definition, helps folks here, a lot. the one who drove him to the smarminess hasn't benefitted anybody, yet (from what i've seen). no new bugs spotted, no new ideas spawned, no new concepts spread, no new joy to share. Selfishness is also having something shareable and not being willing to share it. selfishness is the root of all good. i cannot benefit you tomorrow if i do not take pains to ensure my own survival today. i can't help if i'm not here. if i don't take time to keep my clients happy, i'll not be able to afford to spend time at http://newbiedoc.sourceforge.net/ ... it's in my own best interest to create more than i consume, to operate at a profit -- otherwise, how could i possibly contribute anything to anybody -- and thus it's better for you, too, that i do so. anything good in the human world was created by someone who had the selfish thought *I* would like it better if... -- don't visit this page. it's bad for you. take my expert word for it. http://www.salon.com/people/col/pagl/2001/03/21/spring/index1.html [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://sourceforge.net/projects/newbiedoc -- we need your brain! http://www.dontUthink.com/ -- your brain needs us!
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
On Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 03:01:09PM -0500, Brian Nelson wrote: On Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 11:10:50AM -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote: I'll dispute (mildly) the it's by design and we like it that way. I think part of the issue with GNU/Linux / Unix is that it sort of happened that way -- with some guiding principles. But it's not crafted or designed so much as evolved. And it would be preferable to have a gentler introductory curve. Well, I would argue that configurability and flexibility are inversely proportional to easy of learning. The more options you have and different ways of accomplishing the same thing, the more you have to learn. And since we love the configurability and flexibility of linux, we are willing to accept a taller learning curve. I believe it is possible to make the slope gentler, but it is very hard to do without making the hill shorter. aha! you can also gentle-ify the slope by making the hill WIDER. if the debian.org team had a documentation-supervisor task force to run eyeballs over the docs to try to compare existing manpages such with actual running software -- and update to match, before a major release -- i'd think it would be WONDERFUL. now how can we trick some wordsmith people into wanting to do that? I should have said newbie documentation. I agree that once you've become familiar with Debian, it's very easy to find the documentation you're looking for. With the archives of this list, and all the additional non-Debian-specific documentation, there's a plethora of documentation out there. However, these resources aren't particularly obvious for a newbie. Just looking at the documentation section of debian.org alone isn't very helpful. I can be fairly subjective about this because I've only been using Debian for about a month, and my Debian newbie experiences are fresh in my mind. I found initially that I had a bitch of a time finding the answers to my questions. I always did find the answers, but it was a struggle. have you written a 'finding this-n-that on debian: a newbie howto' yet? Again, most of the Debian defaults are pretty sane. I tend to roll stuff out and have it work. Though reading docs is useful, some packages require configuration. And yes, you have to be there for it. Yep, but you're not new to Debian. You know too much. ;) If you are new to it, it is quite difficult. -- don't visit this page. it's bad for you. take my expert word for it. http://www.salon.com/people/col/pagl/2001/03/21/spring/index1.html [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://sourceforge.net/projects/newbiedoc -- we need your brain! http://www.dontUthink.com/ -- your brain needs us!
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
On Thu, Apr 12, 2001 at 06:28:04PM -0500, John Hasler wrote: I wrote: How is information destroyed by being replicated many times? will trillich writes: it's not. the RESOURCE will dry up. if everybody takes and nobody gives. imagine the debian team -- their time spent, unappreciated, unrewarded, unrecognized. they'd go elsewhere (or at least underground) without a community based on 'produce more than you consume'. You are creating a false dichotomy. It doesn't matter how many people don't contribute. It only matters how many _do_. Which would you rather have: a billion users and a million contributors, or a thousand users and a hundred contributors? good catch. grammar, semantics, vocabulary. sloppily used, begets slopy thought. sarcasm=nonenice job -- i stand corrected!/ that was my intended point, but i mis-worded it. with linux, currency is 'and i helped'. with microso~1, currency is 'reduce your bank account'. remove the currency from the market, and the market -- not the products, but the market -- shrivels and dies. Markets are about scarcity. There is no scarcity of copies of free software. Each additional user of pppconfig costs me absolutely _nothing_. and each additional contributor enriches you (me, us) unmeasurably. -- don't visit this page. it's bad for you. take my expert word for it. http://www.salon.com/people/col/pagl/2001/03/21/spring/index1.html [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://sourceforge.net/projects/newbiedoc -- we need your brain! http://www.dontUthink.com/ -- your brain needs us!
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
hey guys. I just wanted to say that as a relative newbie to linux (about 2 months), everything which kevin said struck a chord in me. In my opinion, he stated his take on the situation, tried to address the problem without insulting anyone. I really don't see how someone could complain about a situation any more profesionaly than that. My only point of concern is that some of you have responded rather harshly to what was a valid complaint made in earnest and without slander. Granted, the unfortunate answer to his complaint is just keep on chuggin and you'll get there eventually.. However, you can choose to relay that info in a consoling, encouraging dont give up kind of way, or you can choose to basically say quit yer bitchin. It dissapoints me to individuals in the linux communtiy, who by their very nature are probably very intelligent people, give this newbie flak for addressing in a professional way what countless others are thinking. Kevin, dont give up. Linux is the right thing to do. The road is hard and long, but worth it. jason [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Kevin Stokes [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Debian User List debian-user@lists.debian.org Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2001 10:37 PM Subject: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink. Once again I find myself helpless. As unreliable and as frustrating as Windows is, in Linux it seems like you can't do anything without asking for help. I wanted to remotely login from a Windows machine to my linux machine. So I wanted to install telnetd. Everyone said, 'shame on you, telnet is simply awful. You should be chained to the wall and whipped for wanting to use telnet! Use 'ssh' instead.' Well, ssh got installed along with everything when I installed linux. So I read the man pages for ssh. As is typical of the linux world, it is about 15 pages of utter gobbedly-gook. To be fair, man pages are not meant for newbies to learn linux from scratch. So I search until I find a HOWTO on ssh. This would be nice if it worked, but of course it doesn't. Everything seems to be different. Their suggestions fail. The paths are different. http://www.linuxdoc.org/LDP/LG/issue61/dellomodarme.html Now I can explain the title of my post. Linux is amazing. There is source code, and binaries and gigabytes of documentation about everything under the sun. All free! But it all seems nearly useless. Take a newbie, and drop him into the sea of freebies. And he drowns. You start searching archives and HOWTO's. Each thing you find leads you in 10 different directions; 10 more places to look for answers. Only each of those ten leads simply bring up 10 more questions and strange things you never heard of.It seems like there is a infinite sea of little config files, and nested /etc directories, and devices and weird little two-letter commands.And for each of these, there are man pages with 20 options, and completely obscure text which makes no sense unless you already know everything. Take the last time I needed help. A generous and helpful person told me to do the following: update-rc.d -n -f xdm remove Why the hell didn't I think of doing that? What does that command do? I don't know. It worked just like the helpful guy said it would. But I have no clue what it did, and what those 8 files that it deleted or modified were. In my opinion, Linux is a truly great and remarkable thing. And I get the impression than many Linux enthusiasts want Linux to become the dominant OS. However, I think that no matter how great the software is, the #1 problem is that Linux is a nightmare for anybody who doesn't know it already. This is not true of Windows, or even DOS. Linux is chasing away the very people it needs. You can tell this from the tone of most newbie posts. They are embarrassed to have to ask these questions. They (read me) have a tough time asking a question which uses terminology correctly, or even coming up a question that makes sense. There is something that Linux needs much more than anything else, and that is a decent help system. We need something about 50 times larger than the man pages. Something which always has an extensive chapter in simple layman language, and lots of examples with clear steps with *explanations*. And also a way to get to the more typically man page type stuff for the people who need that. Who is willing to create such a thing? Not me, I'm not a Linux devotee. But people have put so much effort into building the OS itself, and writing doc. But the bottom line is that the Windows Help system totally blows away all the confusing HOWTO's, man pages, or archived email searches. I'm sure the Linux community could come up with something which beats the Windows Help by a long shot, if they ever decide to get serious about making progress. For those who read this list and have put
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
Kevin Stokes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Or perhaps it is because I have a suggestion, that makes me a selfish bastard? I'm hardly suggesting newbie doc because I expect somebody to write it and give to me. No, it's because it's such an undirected complaint that its only valid use is as a rant. Directed complaints get results, and help other people to help you. Undirected complaints can do very little else but annoy people, because there's nothing that can reasonably be done about it. There *is* newbie documentation. You clearly want more of it. Which bits? Now *that* would be more helpful. As I said, I merely installed Linux on a resurrected computer that had been retired as a lark. I'm not a devotee. However, it really struck me that a crucial ingredient to Linux's success is missing. What I'm trying to do is be helpful. Kind of like saying, 'Hey, pal, I don't know if you noticed or not, but your boots are the wrong feet.' More like Hey, pal, I don't know if you noticed or not, but you look funny, I'm afraid ... -- Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
When you do come back, you have to realize a few things. First of all, installing and using any linux distro, especially debian, is nothing like installing and using windows. It doesn't matter how much of an expert you are in windows. It won't carry over into debian. This is a major source of frustration for newbies like you, because they expect windows but don't get it. Second, you cannot learn to use linux the same way you learned to use windows. In windows, if you point and click enough, you will eventually learn how to do virtually everything that is possible in windows. This is actually one redeeming quality of windows-- it is easy to learn. No books are required. The trade-off is that you are quite limited in what you can learn. A linux distro, on the other hand, is much harder to learn but is vastly more configurable. This is by design. We like it this way. You aren't going to learn to use debian by merely experimenting and pointing and clicking. Research and lots of reading will be required, even to do stuff that's trivially easy for you to do on windows. Third, the documentation you seek is out there. The documentation is less organized for debian because debian is not a commercial entity like Redhat. There is little motivation to make debian easier to learn for newbies because no one is making any money from a new adopter of debian. Maybe you'd have a better experience if you bought a shrink-wrapped version of Redhat or Mandrake or whatever. You'd get a nice install manual and some hand-holding. Remember, you get what you pay for. Also consider buying an O'Reilly book. Their Running Linux (is that the right title?) book is a huge help for newbies. I still look up stuff in it all the time and I've been fiddling with linux for 5 years now. You need to understand that it is not easy to setup and administer a linux box if you're new to it, which is apparently what you wanted to do. If you want it to be easy, there are other OS's that will make it easier. However, we believe you will get the best experience out of debian, which is why we advocate it. It won't happen overnight, and it will be frustrating at times, but it's not impossible. Finally, complaining that debian is not like windows (which is exactly what you did, even if you don't realize that) isn't going to get you anywhere. The reason we all use debian is because it's *not* like windows. How come no one explains this stuff to newbies before they try a linux distro? -Nelson - Original Message - From: Kevin Stokes [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: debian-user@lists.debian.org Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2001 11:08 PM Subject: Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink. Nice. So, what - you're a martyr now? Give us a break. No, I'm not a martyr. I was just trying to be funny.I shouldn't have put that part in, since it didn't add to the analogy. I'm sorry I started the whole thing. I'm going to unsubscribe from the list and leave my Linux box idle for a week or so, and maybe come back to it later. For those who were annoyed by me, I apologize. -Kevin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: SSL : RE: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
%% 'Dave Sherohman' [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ds I removed telnetd-ssl when I discovered this because I couldn't ds find a way to turn the fallback behaviour off. Probably someone already said this (I can't figure out why _some_ of my email is taking 3 days to reach me :-/), but you must not have looked very hard--the man page for both telnet and telnetd tell you how to keep it from switching back to insecure mode if SSL is not available. -- --- Paul D. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]HASMAT--HA Software Methods Tools Please remain calm...I may be mad, but I am a professional. --Mad Scientist --- These are my opinions---Nortel Networks takes no responsibility for them.
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
On Thu, Apr 12, 2001 at 07:24:59PM -0400, Kevin Stokes wrote: [ snip ] However, at 3am, the local police bash down my uncle's door, and drag me out of bed. They charge me with violating a local ordinance. I have made a suggestion to widen the mall entrance without showing up with a wheelbarrow and jackhammer to do it myself! They strap me to a post in the center of the town, and now nobody cares about the mall anymore since they have something better to do. Each resident is allowed to whip me thirty lashes, although nobody cares if you go over, as long it doesn't cut into anyone else's whipping time. After I die from bleeding, they put my corpse on a big wooden frame and mount it on the side of the mall with the caption: Dumb, Lazy, Selfish Bastard! After a unanimous vote, the elitist cabal has decided you are a dumb-ass. Go away. -- Nathan Norman - Staff Engineer | A good plan today is better Micromuse Ltd. | than a perfect plan tomorrow. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | -- Patton PS There is no cabal. PPS Would this thread go away if I mentioned National Socialism? pgpGfqqKppZyM.pgp Description: PGP signature
RE: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
Brian, I like your response and Joris Lambrecht's to this saga the best. As both a Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer (MCSE) NT 4.0 and a Linux Professional Institute Certified (LPIC) person, I can tell you first hand no one knows it all. We all enter the arena at some level of expertise. I too find Debian the most challenging, but view it as the fun dimension of the total picture. Red Hat 6.2 installed super slick in my private residence compared to Debian here at work --- but once up Debian is FAST and bullet-proof. Your observation about not comparing Windows to Linux is very good to my way of thinking. If a person gets into a situation where they need to be up and into production mode fast then frustration can get the best of you -- all too often that manifests itself in anger. Some new Debian books are scheduled to come out this month and that will only help, so perhaps when Kevin comes back things will be better. Regards, John D. Holp -Original Message- From: Brian Nelson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 12:22 PM To: Kevin Stokes; debian-user@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink. When you do come back, you have to realize a few things. First of all, installing and using any linux distro, especially debian, is nothing like installing and using windows. It doesn't matter how much of an expert you are in windows. It won't carry over into debian. This is a major source of frustration for newbies like you, because they expect windows but don't get it. Second, you cannot learn to use linux the same way you learned to use windows. In windows, if you point and click enough, you will eventually learn how to do virtually everything that is possible in windows. This is actually one redeeming quality of windows-- it is easy to learn. No books are required. The trade-off is that you are quite limited in what you can learn. A linux distro, on the other hand, is much harder to learn but is vastly more configurable. This is by design. We like it this way. You aren't going to learn to use debian by merely experimenting and pointing and clicking. Research and lots of reading will be required, even to do stuff that's trivially easy for you to do on windows. Third, the documentation you seek is out there. The documentation is less organized for debian because debian is not a commercial entity like Redhat. There is little motivation to make debian easier to learn for newbies because no one is making any money from a new adopter of debian. Maybe you'd have a better experience if you bought a shrink-wrapped version of Redhat or Mandrake or whatever. You'd get a nice install manual and some hand-holding. Remember, you get what you pay for. Also consider buying an O'Reilly book. Their Running Linux (is that the right title?) book is a huge help for newbies. I still look up stuff in it all the time and I've been fiddling with linux for 5 years now. You need to understand that it is not easy to setup and administer a linux box if you're new to it, which is apparently what you wanted to do. If you want it to be easy, there are other OS's that will make it easier. However, we believe you will get the best experience out of debian, which is why we advocate it. It won't happen overnight, and it will be frustrating at times, but it's not impossible. Finally, complaining that debian is not like windows (which is exactly what you did, even if you don't realize that) isn't going to get you anywhere. The reason we all use debian is because it's *not* like windows. How come no one explains this stuff to newbies before they try a linux distro? -Nelson - Original Message - From: Kevin Stokes [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: debian-user@lists.debian.org Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2001 11:08 PM Subject: Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink. Nice. So, what - you're a martyr now? Give us a break. No, I'm not a martyr. I was just trying to be funny.I shouldn't have put that part in, since it didn't add to the analogy. I'm sorry I started the whole thing. I'm going to unsubscribe from the list and leave my Linux box idle for a week or so, and maybe come back to it later. For those who were annoyed by me, I apologize. -Kevin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
On Thu, Apr 12, 2001 at 08:17:18PM -0400, Kevin Stokes wrote: | | Gosh, you guys are so serious! I was just having a bit of fun with that | part. The whole thing is tongue-in-cheek, although like all humour, it has | to have a grain of truth or some kind of point to make in order to work. | | I'm not upset or mad or flaming anybody or anything. Put some wink's or ;-)'s or :-)'s where you think you are being funny. It helps it to actually be funny wink. When you tell a funny story to someone in person, they can see your expression and/or hear the tone of your voice. When writing e-mail you must explicitly include such hints to the readers. The lack of such punctuation in your e-mail makes you sound very serious about it. :-) -D (cc'd incase you already unsubscribed)
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
on Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 12:21:43PM -0400, Brian Nelson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: First of all, installing and using any linux distro, especially debian, is nothing like installing and using windows. It doesn't matter how much of an expert you are in windows. It won't carry over into debian. This is a major source of frustration for newbies like you, because they expect windows but don't get it. Naturally, there's documentation on this topic, the From DOS/Legacy MS Windows to Linux HOWTO Second, you cannot learn to use linux the same way you learned to use windows. In windows, if you point and click enough, you will eventually learn how to do virtually everything that is possible in windows. This is actually one redeeming quality of windows-- it is easy to learn. No books are required. The trade-off is that you are quite limited in what you can learn. A linux distro, on the other hand, is much harder to learn but is vastly more configurable. This is by design. We like it this way. I'll dispute (mildly) the it's by design and we like it that way. I think part of the issue with GNU/Linux / Unix is that it sort of happened that way -- with some guiding principles. But it's not crafted or designed so much as evolved. And it would be preferable to have a gentler introductory curve. My own preferred formulation is: GNU/Linux has a steep learning curve, but a high payoff function. Harder to learn. Far more powerful to use. Steep ain't all bad if there is a gentle hill at the low end for people to be able to do stuff easily. Don't drag down the high end, just take away that four-foot wall you have to scramble up initially. A six-to-twelve inch curb would be good to scare off the people who trip over their own shoelaces (let MSFT support take the hit). I'm not against this, I'm really not. You aren't going to learn to use debian by merely experimenting and pointing and clicking. Research and lots of reading will be required, even to do stuff that's trivially easy for you to do on windows. Slight quibble here as well. A mix is really good. Read, try, experiment. You'll learn. Quickly. Possibly less intuitive than Legacy MS Windows, but still possible to learn through exploration. Third, the documentation you seek is out there. The documentation is less organized for debian because debian is not a commercial entity like Redhat. Bollox. Debian's documentation is *better* organized than RH, IMVAO. The best free 'Nix docs are arguably OpenBSD, which is decidedly noncommercial. My take is that most commercial organizations have fewer resources to throw at docs than volunteer ones, and that organization of the distribution (including documentation) is one of the fortes of Debian. Largely because there's direct ownership of Debian packages by the package maintainers: personal accountability at a low level. There is little motivation to make debian easier to learn for newbies because no one is making any money from a new adopter of debian. The usual problem is that, as a newbie, you care, and once you've worked out most of what you need to get things done, the newbie experience isn't so signficiant any more. Though this does gradually improve over time. ... You need to understand that it is not easy to setup and administer a linux box if you're new to it, which is apparently what you wanted to do. Again, most of the Debian defaults are pretty sane. I tend to roll stuff out and have it work. Though reading docs is useful, some packages require configuration. And yes, you have to be there for it. If you want it to be easy, there are other OS's that will make it easier. However, we believe you will get the best experience out of debian, which is why we advocate it. It won't happen overnight, and it will be frustrating at times, but it's not impossible. Finally, complaining that debian is not like windows (which is exactly what you did, even if you don't realize that) isn't going to get you anywhere. The reason we all use debian is because it's *not* like windows. Funny, I hadn't noticed ;-) How come no one explains this stuff to newbies before they try a linux distro? I realize this is a rhetorical question, but an attempt at an answer: it's the users' prerogative. There's no central point of control or supply for Debian, though http://www.debian.org/ is a good starting point, and much of the issues raised here are addressed there...if you can find the right docs. Debian, more so than most GNU/Linux distros, puts the onus on the user to assess their needs, requirements, and expectations. As I said before, it's an OS for adults (including under that rubric, adults of young age, who happen to be mature enough to deal with this stuff). -Nelson Cheers. -- Karsten M. Self kmself@ix.netcom.comhttp://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of Gestalt don't you understand? There is no K5 cabal
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
Kevin == Kevin Stokes [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As to your assertion that Linux is chasing away the very people it needs - that's a fallacy. Kevin I don't think it is. How many copies of Redhat, Suse and Kevin the others were sold in the last two years? How many Kevin copies of Debian were downloaded by newbies in the last two Kevin years? Total those up and call it N. And now count the people who got their Debian, or RedHat, SuSE, Caldera, TurboLinux... CDs from a friend, or from their local LUG, or... you got the picture? Kevin Of those N, how many are running Linux today? I'll bet Kevin it is less than N/10, and could be as low as N/100. And yet this N/100 is still high enough for us. Take my LUG for example: low attendance of the monthly meeting is, say, 15-20 people (at high attendance, the room's too small ;-). Too few? No, sir, because of these 20 people, there are at least 5 who are, if I dare say so, what you might call a `guru'. Doesn't matter whether they are using RedHat or Debian [1]. So your assertion about chasing away *is* a fallacy... as Linux certainly doesn't *need* these people. Linux needs *clueful* people, because (ta-da!) those are the people who can help... even if you have to be helpful yourself in your problem reporting to *get* their help (see Karsten's posting). Kevin 1.) I assume most of the Linux community would like to see Kevin Linux be the dominant OS in the world, and think it Kevin deserves this. Actually, most *companies* want that. Well... and a lot of users. But *not* by sacrificing anything. And, well, flexibility most implies complexity (from the POV of the `newbie'). Kevin 2.) In order to accomplish this, it will be necessary for Kevin most users to switch from Windows to Linux. Sure. *If* you want point 1. Kevin 3.) If a guy like me (who has installed and operated OS's Kevin from Assembly on the Cosmac Elf II, to Basic in ROM on an Kevin Ohio Scientific Challenger 4P, to Data General RDOS, to Kevin PDP's RT11, to CP/M, FORTH, and DOS and Windows), cannot Kevin seem to do the simplest thing in Linux, then Linux (and the Kevin doc) is in a form that (1) and (2) will not occur. Sorry, Kevin, but given this honestly impressive list of OS's you've used (I assume you've also used them, right?), your Linux is too complicated is hard to believe. KevinIf the Linux community does not care about (1) and (2), Kevin then I think they are heading in the right direction. Most of the community doesn't care all that much for these, yes... or/and they have more important things to do. (*And* there a folks who don't have trouble getting into Linux despite your implications to the contrary). Bye, J [1] Even though Germany is said to be SuSE territory... well, one of the founding regulars once told me that All the people who know Linux and know their stuff use either RedHat or Debian. Okay, I'd make that the majority by now (there are one or two `gurus' or `semi-gurus' using SuSE). -- Jürgen A. Erhard[EMAIL PROTECTED] phone: (GERMANY) 0721 27326 MARS: http://members.tripod.com/Juergen_Erhard/mars_index.html George Herrimann's Krazy Kat (http://www.krazy.com) I wish I had more energy -- or less ambition. pgpJ90crLHnPr.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
On Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 11:10:50AM -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote: on Fri, Apr 13, 2001 at 12:21:43PM -0400, Brian Nelson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: First of all, installing and using any linux distro, especially debian, is nothing like installing and using windows. It doesn't matter how much of an expert you are in windows. It won't carry over into debian. This is a major source of frustration for newbies like you, because they expect windows but don't get it. Naturally, there's documentation on this topic, the From DOS/Legacy MS Windows to Linux HOWTO Second, you cannot learn to use linux the same way you learned to use windows. In windows, if you point and click enough, you will eventually learn how to do virtually everything that is possible in windows. This is actually one redeeming quality of windows-- it is easy to learn. No books are required. The trade-off is that you are quite limited in what you can learn. A linux distro, on the other hand, is much harder to learn but is vastly more configurable. This is by design. We like it this way. I'll dispute (mildly) the it's by design and we like it that way. I think part of the issue with GNU/Linux / Unix is that it sort of happened that way -- with some guiding principles. But it's not crafted or designed so much as evolved. And it would be preferable to have a gentler introductory curve. Well, I would argue that configurability and flexibility are inversely proportional to easy of learning. The more options you have and different ways of accomplishing the same thing, the more you have to learn. And since we love the configurability and flexibility of linux, we are willing to accept a taller learning curve. I believe it is possible to make the slope gentler, but it is very hard to do without making the hill shorter. My own preferred formulation is: GNU/Linux has a steep learning curve, but a high payoff function. Harder to learn. Far more powerful to use. Steep ain't all bad if there is a gentle hill at the low end for people to be able to do stuff easily. Don't drag down the high end, just take away that four-foot wall you have to scramble up initially. A six-to-twelve inch curb would be good to scare off the people who trip over their own shoelaces (let MSFT support take the hit). I'm not against this, I'm really not. Definitely... You aren't going to learn to use debian by merely experimenting and pointing and clicking. Research and lots of reading will be required, even to do stuff that's trivially easy for you to do on windows. Slight quibble here as well. A mix is really good. Read, try, experiment. You'll learn. Quickly. Possibly less intuitive than Legacy MS Windows, but still possible to learn through exploration. Agreed. This is what I implied by saying merely experimenting... Third, the documentation you seek is out there. The documentation is less organized for debian because debian is not a commercial entity like Redhat. Bollox. Debian's documentation is *better* organized than RH, IMVAO. The best free 'Nix docs are arguably OpenBSD, which is decidedly noncommercial. My take is that most commercial organizations have fewer resources to throw at docs than volunteer ones, and that organization of the distribution (including documentation) is one of the fortes of Debian. Largely because there's direct ownership of Debian packages by the package maintainers: personal accountability at a low level. I should have said newbie documentation. I agree that once you've become familiar with Debian, it's very easy to find the documentation you're looking for. With the archives of this list, and all the additional non-Debian-specific documentation, there's a plethora of documentation out there. However, these resources aren't particularly obvious for a newbie. Just looking at the documentation section of debian.org alone isn't very helpful. I can be fairly subjective about this because I've only been using Debian for about a month, and my Debian newbie experiences are fresh in my mind. I found initially that I had a bitch of a time finding the answers to my questions. I always did find the answers, but it was a struggle. However, with Redhat, I found the newbie stuff on redhat.com far more helpful in the beginning. I would never go back to RH now. But I do believe that Debian could use a more coherent central source for documentation. As it is now, it's quite intimidating until you're used it. There is little motivation to make debian easier to learn for newbies because no one is making any money from a new adopter of debian. The usual problem is that, as a newbie, you care, and once you've worked out most of what you need to get things done, the newbie experience isn't so signficiant any more. Though this does gradually improve over time. ... You need to understand that it is not easy to setup
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 STFU. http://qa.debian.org/man-pages.html On Fri, 13 Apr 2001, Andre Berger wrote: * Kevin Stokes [EMAIL PROTECTED], 2001-04-13 02:06 +0200: [snipped that ... story] Why don't you spend your time to RTFM instead. -Andre - -- Galt's sci-fi paradox: Stormtroopers versus Redshirts to the death. Who is John Galt? [EMAIL PROTECTED], that's who! -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0 Charset: noconv iQA/AwUBOtdchh9mehuYcOjMEQIV4ACgzoafJf8Lal9mO6u8B1CXI2WeF2UAoIaX hUAjwCAX9xGhgPYCIBDieET7 =yomw -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
I can be fairly subjective... Ehem. I mean objective. Sorry bout that. -Nelson
water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
To really start a fire here ... *Someone else* pointed out how debian maintainers and promoters shoot themselves in the foot by not being enough like windows. This is true, but it is also true that in some ways, especially the mouse, they shoot themselves in the foot by slavishly imitating windows without taking advantage of the very many opportunities to do much better. The mouse is a big deal with any editor. Emacs and Xemacs fail utterly to take full advantage of the mouse, or even of the pc101 keyboard. They don't even use the delete key in a sane manner. Sorry to have upset you. Scrollbars belong on the left. ;-) ==Andre Berger man gpm gpm does not configure 7 logical mouse buttons. *When* is it going to? When also one-stop touchpad configuration? When is X, gnome, kde and *all* their apps going to take their mouse configuration from gpm? Why not all this in 1996? There isn't any motion at all. It is a serious negative. Being the best is not good enough if it sucks, or is it? If I didn't get the irony in your posting: I'm not a native speaker ;) Huh?! -- DaveA (Debian User)= The journey of a thousand miles begins with but a single KITA. (rhymes with PITA) :-) =
RE: macosX : water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
Linus himself was flaming MacOsX not that long ago ... said the kernel (mach?) was a *total* piece of crap -Original Message- From: csj [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: donderdag 12 april 2001 1:23 To: Debian User List Subject: Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink. On Wednesday 11 April 2001 16:06, Ethan Benson wrote: On Tue, Apr 10, 2001 at 10:52:54PM -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote: now MacOS X, which is housetrained Unix, [...] thats not what i would call it. i would call it a neutered Unix thats been run over by a truck. Strong words. What makes you say that? Just curious. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: macosX : water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
Joris Lambrecht [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Linus himself was flaming MacOsX not that long ago ... said the kernel (mach?) was a *total* piece of crap Linus has widely-known opinions about microkernels. :) -- Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
Joris Lambrecht [EMAIL PROTECTED] To really start a fire here ... 1. In many new packages, maybe most, the developers just press on and don't pay attention to stable and unstable until they attain a version 1.x. What good is it to have a version 0.4 instead of 0.7 of anything in a stable distribution? Does stable have to be *so* old? Why not evaluate each package of pre-1.0 programs according to reality instead of policy? 2. It is unspeakable that I have to use Ctl-leftbutton when I have a 3-button mouse. It is *terrible* ergonomics. *All* non-windows developers, not just linux, should withdraw support for 1 and 2 button mice, and force those silly enough not to replace them (for $2.00) to use meta and ctrl combinations. 7 logical buttons, which is what you have with a 3-button mouse, should work without menus and configuration files or any such nonsense. I should be able to configure left handed, etc., with *one* program. You don't successfully compete with windows by mindlessly aping its *worst* features. It makes *every* program that works with a gui *much* less good and some really insane, like emacs. (and xemacs, presumably because X is pathetic that way too.) -- DaveA (Debian User)= The journey of a thousand miles begins with but a single KITA. =
RE: alert : water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
This thread is getting REALLY hard to follow. I suggest people start splitting it up or simply shut it down. This was my last post/read on this thread. ps : does kita somewhat resemble the meaning of p.i.t.a ? then it's funny, otherwise it's confusing :)) -Original Message- From: David Raleigh Arnold [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: woensdag 11 april 2001 17:53 To: Joris Lambrecht; 'Kevin Stokes'; debian-user@lists.debian.org Subject: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink. Joris Lambrecht [EMAIL PROTECTED] To really start a fire here ... 1. In many new packages, maybe most, the developers just press on and don't pay attention to stable and unstable until they attain a version 1.x. What good is it to have a version 0.4 instead of 0.7 of anything in a stable distribution? Does stable have to be *so* old? Why not evaluate each package of pre-1.0 programs according to reality instead of policy? 2. It is unspeakable that I have to use Ctl-leftbutton when I have a 3-button mouse. It is *terrible* ergonomics. *All* non-windows developers, not just linux, should withdraw support for 1 and 2 button mice, and force those silly enough not to replace them (for $2.00) to use meta and ctrl combinations. 7 logical buttons, which is what you have with a 3-button mouse, should work without menus and configuration files or any such nonsense. I should be able to configure left handed, etc., with *one* program. You don't successfully compete with windows by mindlessly aping its *worst* features. It makes *every* program that works with a gui *much* less good and some really insane, like emacs. (and xemacs, presumably because X is pathetic that way too.) -- DaveA (Debian User)= The journey of a thousand miles begins with but a single KITA. =
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
David Raleigh Arnold [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It makes *every* program that works with a gui *much* less good and some really insane, like emacs. (and xemacs, presumably because X is pathetic that way too.) Just so you know, XEmacs is perfectly capable of running on the console (the 'X' in the name has nothing to do with X Windows), and, in fact, it has some console mode features that the current version of Emacs does not (frex, syntax coloring)[1] Other than that, I agree with your mouse button rantings. 8^)= john. Footnotes: [1] Before I get flamed to hell and back for saying that Emacs doesn't do syntax coloring, please note we're talking *console mode* here. -- No matter where you go, there you are. pgpl5AZx2NT1U.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
john Just so you know, XEmacs is perfectly capable of running on the john console (the 'X' in the name has nothing to do with X Windows), and, john in fact, it has some console mode features that the current version of john Emacs does not (frex, syntax coloring)[1] Just one note. Emacs21 does support syntax coloring on console. See deb http://people.debian.org/~kitame/emacs21 ./ :) -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- | Ilya Martynov (http://martynov.org/)| | GnuPG 1024D/323BDEE6 D7F7 561E 4C1D 8A15 8E80 E4AE BE1A 53EB 323B DEE6 | | AGAVA Software Company (http://www.agava.com/) | -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
%% Ethan Benson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: eb On Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 03:39:55AM -0400, Paul D. Smith wrote: # groupadd kevin # useradd -g kevin -m kevin # passwd kevin eb um you only have to do it that way if you use roothat. Um, Red Hat did not invent these. They are the standard tools for creating users on most SysV-like flavors of UNIX, such as Solaris, HP-UX, AIX, etc. While Debian may have some better, more unified way, I'll stick with the portable ones, thanks (although I hardly ever use these anyway, I just edit /etc/group and /etc/passwd directly :)--I only use useradd to get the shadow password stuff set up right initially. I _certainly_ never use usermod :). -- --- Paul D. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]HASMAT--HA Software Methods Tools Please remain calm...I may be mad, but I am a professional. --Mad Scientist --- These are my opinions---Nortel Networks takes no responsibility for them.
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
Kevin Stokes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: GNU/Linux is a grown-up's operating system. You're expected to know your way around, or be able to figure it out. I'm sorry, but the 'You're dumb or lazy or both' argument will not fly. There is an easily-correctable problem with Linux, and I hope the good people who devote so much time to Linux will see that. We're doing our damnedest, and I know I'll accept pretty much any documentation improvements I'm sent. It really grates to be told how the documentation we've spent time writing is worthless without any help being given to improve it, but if help is given then that's always welcome. Given all the effort put in by a lot of people, I don't think it's too presumptuous of me to say that it's not quite as easily correctible as you think. For what it's worth, I think the existing man page framework is fine for this (but then I would say that). Sure, some man pages are useless, and a lot of them are specific to individual programs. A lot of them are general introductions to things as well. There's also info and the HOWTOs. If you want to put some effort into improving Linux's help system, your time would be a lot better spent working on writing code thet indexes all of these in a friendly way (there are already GUI frontends to man, and I'm sure the existing whatis/apropos indices could be levered into a nice graphical index) than coming up with yet another competing format that divides the effort yet more. Or, if you're no good at writing code, then write up your experiences for the rest of us! Good coders are often not so good at writing documentation. On the wishlist for man - way down it for now, unfortunately, as there are a load of more serious bugs to be fixed first - is support for SGML man pages. Maybe that'll go some way to reunifying some of the documentation. It would be cool to be able to type 'man Font' and get the Font-HOWTO, although maybe that's a job for a higher-level tool. The question is, what does the Linux community want? Pretty much anything and everything you could name. -- Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
Kevin Stokes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: and kevin, when the light goes on, and all the fog clears, imagine how much hair-pulling you'll save the next poor soul if you document what you learned... hmm? Ahh, but I'm not a Linux or Free-Software devotee.I would guess that the Linux community doesn't just write software and doc for themselves; They would want their OS to grow and spread far and wide. As I understand it, the developers would want more people to use it, even if those people didn't become disciples of Free Software themselves. *shrug* I think the motivation of a lot of developers is more to write something useful, fun, and powerful - there's Eric Raymond's thing about scratching a personal itch. Let's face it, most developers aren't marketers. From my point of view, who cares if the world runs on Linux? I'd like to help make it as good as possible for the people who *do* run it. Yes, I could write good newbie doc. But I'm extremely busy with my own stuff, and have spent far to much time on postings about this anyway. See, this sort of thing is *so* frustrating to read. We're all busy; the people who know most about your average piece of software are the busiest of all, and because they're liable to be most in contact with other developers the pressure is on them to write developer-oriented documentation. If only I were paid to do this ... I realize that my words aren't going to turn the lights on by themselves. But perhaps over time as more newbies vocalize their suprise at the lack of any offical information directed at their level, one of the devotees will decide to reapportion the Linux development effort a little. Not because they want to help the poor helpless newbies, but because by reapportioning the group effort, the group could come closer to accomplishing their goal. Reapportion? I just feel the need to wave a big flag reading VOLUNTEER here ... and volunteers work on what they find interesting. If you find documentation interesting, *please* come and work on it, as it's a need being served by all too few people. -- Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
Noah L. Meyerhans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 01:22:42AM -0400, Paul D. Smith wrote: On my local network I have installed and run telnet-ssl and telnetd-ssl. This is normal telnet authentication, but your password, etc. is sent encrypted instead of in the clear. That's enough paranoia for me, since I have a very strict firewall guarding it. Are there any decent SSL telnet clients for non Unix platforms? I was kind of surprised to find out by chance that the telnet in Windows 98 (not Windows 95) speaks SSL. It's not a wonderful telnet client - it gets terminal types wrong a lot, from what I've seen - but it does the job and is installed all over the place. -- Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
Paul D. Smith writes: They are the standard tools for creating users on most SysV-like flavors of UNIX, such as Solaris, HP-UX, AIX, etc. While Debian may have some better, more unified way, I'll stick with the portable ones,... Debian's adduser/addgroups program is written in Perl, calls useradd, and is licensed under the terms of the GPL. How much more portable do you want it? -- John Hasler [EMAIL PROTECTED] (John Hasler) Dancing Horse Hill Elmwood, WI
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
On Wed, 11 Apr 2001, Kevin Stokes wrote: There are people who care deeply about Linux and Free Software. I am not one of them. I wish Linux the best, but I'm not ready to invest hours of my time writing doc. Would it really takes hours to write In order to do this, I did this, this, and this? I don't think it would. If enough people would make that modest investment of time, it would outstrip the documentation efforts of even the biggest software company. You may think of me a selfish bastard, because I want to use Linux, but I don't want to help build it. My viewpoint is different. I thought the Free Software people didn't want payment, but now I'm supposed to have a guilt trip if I don't write doc? I don't know your parents well enough to comment on the bastard part, but if you want to take without giving, that pretty much is the textbook definition of selfish. Have you actually read anything about what Free Software people want? (Oh I forgot you've got no time, sorry.) It's about community. This ranges from hippy, we are the world visions of social utopia to the pragmatic insight that if you give you are more likely to get stuff back. The common thread in these views is exchange. The freedom in free software is the freedom to share. That the software costs no money is incidental to its' main purpose. Or perhaps it is because I have a suggestion, that makes me a selfish bastard? Because you expect other people to implement your suggestion while you do nothing. Like I'm completely at sea when it comes to automobiles. If it's more complicated than pumping gas, I have to get my brother-in-law to help. But at least I stand there and pass him spanners and things. To go inside and watch TV while he does all the work would be crass beyond belief. Except for the happy occasion when I can do it as part of my day job, the work I do for Debian is done in the middle of the night. After a full day of paying the rent and after attending to my family. Don't tell me about how busy you are. I'm busier. I'm hardly suggesting newbie doc because I expect somebody to write it and give to me. Then what? How is this suggestion supposed to amount to anything? I suggest we have world peace and free coca-cola on demand. Unless I work for that, it ain't going to happen. [...] As I said, I merely installed Linux on a resurrected computer that had been retired as a lark. I'm not a devotee. However, it really struck me that a crucial ingredient to Linux's success is missing. What I'm trying to do is be helpful. Kind of like saying, 'Hey, pal, I don't know if you noticed or not, but your boots are the wrong feet.' THe response might be. 'Shut up, you loser. I can wear my boots on my hands if I want to.', or the response might be, 'So that's why my boots haven't been that successful. They hurt my feet like crazy!'. In either case, I wouldn't help the man take of his boots and put them on the right way, and most men wouldn't want my help. Except in this case these are YOUR boots on YOUR feet. Or a more apt analogy: Linux is like a village common. You've heard of the economic concept of the tragedy of the commons right? If too many people take from a public resource without giving back, it swiftly gets destroyed. -- Jaldhar H. Vyas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
* David Raleigh Arnold [EMAIL PROTECTED], 2001-04-12 21:26 +0200: Joris Lambrecht [EMAIL PROTECTED] To really start a fire here ... 1. In many new packages, maybe most, the developers just press on and don't pay attention to stable and unstable until they attain a version 1.x. What good is it to have a version 0.4 instead of 0.7 of anything in a stable distribution? Does stable have to be *so* old? Personnally I don't care about a package's version number if it's stable and does its job. Why not evaluate each package of pre-1.0 programs according to reality instead of policy? Huh? 2. It is unspeakable that I have to use Ctl-leftbutton when I have a 3-button mouse. Huh?! 7 logical buttons, which is what you have with a 3-button mouse, should work without menus and configuration files or any such nonsense. Huh! I should be able to configure left handed, etc., with *one* program. man gpm If I didn't get the irony in your posting: I'm not a native speaker ;) Andre Berger[EMAIL PROTECTED] pgp6cs3kHC5kg.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: alert : water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
* Joris Lambrecht [EMAIL PROTECTED], 2001-04-12 21:26 +0200: This thread is getting REALLY hard to follow. I suggest people start splitting it up or simply shut it down. This was my last post/read on this thread. Such threads are easier to follow if everybody respects them, i.e. answers to postings _within_ the thread (hint, hint). Andre Berger[EMAIL PROTECTED] pgpwJsajakLv6.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
Jaldhar H. Vyas writes: Or a more apt analogy: Linux is like a village common. No. A common is a scarce resource. Software isn't. If too many people take from a public resource without giving back, it swiftly gets destroyed. How is information destroyed by being replicated many times? -- John Hasler [EMAIL PROTECTED] (John Hasler) Dancing Horse Hill Elmwood, WI
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
On Thu, Apr 12, 2001 at 03:59:23PM -0500, John Hasler wrote: Jaldhar H. Vyas writes: Or a more apt analogy: Linux is like a village common. No. A common is a scarce resource. Software isn't. i don't think jaldha was talking about the software, but rather the environment behind the linux phenomenon. If too many people take from a public resource without giving back, it swiftly gets destroyed. How is information destroyed by being replicated many times? it's not. the RESOURCE will dry up. if everybody takes and nobody gives. imagine the debian team -- their time spent, unappreciated, unrewarded, unrecognized. they'd go elsewhere (or at least underground) without a community based on 'produce more than you consume'. with linux, currency is 'and i helped'. with microso~1, currency is 'reduce your bank account'. remove the currency from the market, and the market -- not the products, but the market -- shrivels and dies. -- americans should never read anything so subversive as what's at http://www.salon.com/people/col/pagl/2001/03/21/spring/index1.html [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://sourceforge.net/projects/newbiedoc -- we need your brain! http://www.dontUthink.com/ -- your brain needs us!
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
I wrote: How is information destroyed by being replicated many times? will trillich writes: it's not. the RESOURCE will dry up. if everybody takes and nobody gives. imagine the debian team -- their time spent, unappreciated, unrewarded, unrecognized. they'd go elsewhere (or at least underground) without a community based on 'produce more than you consume'. You are creating a false dichotomy. It doesn't matter how many people don't contribute. It only matters how many _do_. Which would you rather have: a billion users and a million contributors, or a thousand users and a hundred contributors? with linux, currency is 'and i helped'. with microso~1, currency is 'reduce your bank account'. remove the currency from the market, and the market -- not the products, but the market -- shrivels and dies. Markets are about scarcity. There is no scarcity of copies of free software. Each additional user of pppconfig costs me absolutely _nothing_. -- John Hasler [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dancing Horse Hill Elmwood, Wisconsin
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
Because you expect other people to implement your suggestion while you do nothing. Some people get my point, and others don't. I don't expect anything. Let me try another analogy, since my first one was lousy; Say I'm visiting my uncle in Lynchburg, Tenn. We go to the mall to buy a shirt. The mall is this beautiful 2-story complex with indoor fountains and trees, and very nice shops etc. However, the only way in and out was a rope ladder to narrow passage. We arrive at 10am when they open. There is a crowd of people milling around. They can't find the entrance. Many of them have flown all the way from Redmond, WA to see this wonderful mall. A few have discovered the passage and are climbing in, but most are just in the crowd in the parking lot. They don't know where they're supposed to go and they're getting hot, sweaty, and thirsty. Most end up getting disgusted, and get back in their cars and drive away. After getting home, I can't understand what they were thinking when they built the mall. So I send in a little editorial note to the local newspaper suggesting that they make the entrances bigger and easier to spot, since it would server everybody's interests. It doesn't make much difference to me whether they actually fix the entrances, since I'm leaving the morning to go back home. I just thought it would be a good suggestion for the customers, the shopkeepers, and the mall management. However, at 3am, the local police bash down my uncle's door, and drag me out of bed. They charge me with violating a local ordinance. I have made a suggestion to widen the mall entrance without showing up with a wheelbarrow and jackhammer to do it myself! They strap me to a post in the center of the town, and now nobody cares about the mall anymore since they have something better to do. Each resident is allowed to whip me thirty lashes, although nobody cares if you go over, as long it doesn't cut into anyone else's whipping time. After I die from bleeding, they put my corpse on a big wooden frame and mount it on the side of the mall with the caption: Dumb, Lazy, Selfish Bastard! -Kevin Stokes I don't know your parents well enough to comment on the bastard part, but if you want to take without giving, that pretty much is the textbook definition of selfish.
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
On Thu, Apr 12, 2001 at 07:24:59PM -0400, Kevin Stokes wrote: | | Because you expect other people to implement your suggestion while you do | nothing. |Some people get my point, and others don't. I don't expect anything. | Let me try another analogy, since my first one was lousy; snip story In your editorial did you say You should really reapportion your volunteer efforts or else your product is trash?. If you simply said something like I am a newbie and I feel that Linux needs better newbie documentation. no one would have gotten upset with you. When you say If you want Linux to be worth something, you had better go write this newbie documentation now people get really upset. This is the point people are trying to make to you. Also, if you come to the list with a problem, explain the problem and ask _nicely_ for help, you are almost certain to get some. If you were to ask how to grow beautiful flowers in your garden you may or may not get some responses, but if it is a debian-related question you will most likely get a good explanation. -D
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
* Kevin Stokes [EMAIL PROTECTED] [12Apr01 19:24 -0400]: Some people get my point, and others don't. I don't expect anything. Let me try another analogy, since my first one was lousy; Your latest analogy is worse than the first... espeically the part about people bashing down the door, dragging you out of bed and kicking your proverbial ass. You made some points and others have responded. I have not seen anyone even figuratively attacking you. It sounds to me like you are just trying to stir things up, now. -- Regards, -=[Ty]=-
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
Your latest analogy is worse than the first... espeically the part about people bashing down the door, dragging you out of bed and kicking your proverbial ass. Gosh, you guys are so serious! I was just having a bit of fun with that part. The whole thing is tongue-in-cheek, although like all humour, it has to have a grain of truth or some kind of point to make in order to work. I'm not upset or mad or flaming anybody or anything. In your editorial did you say You should really reapportion your volunteer efforts or else your product is trash?. I never said that. I complemented Linux several times, and especially complemented the helpful people on this list. I never attacked Linux or anybody. I just said, gosh, it looks like a big piece is missing! The people on this list have helped me several times, and I have been polite and said my thanks. I have said I like Linux and think it is great. I did say that IMHO if the Linux community wants to be an elite club, then they are right on track. If they want to become the dominant OS, then they need really good newbie doc.That is it.I don't think that is mean, selfish, or dumb. It is not meant as an attack on anybody. Probably some people do want to keep Linux as an elite club, and others want it to grow and spread everywhere. I like Linux, and think it would be cool if it spread everywhere, but I'm not yet a devotee. I've only got about 3 or 4 full days Linux experience total. You may accuse me of being arrogant for making a suggestion when I don't know squat about linux, and have not contributed anything to it. Ah, but you see as a newbie I can offer something that the experts cannot, and that the viewpoint of a newbie. If you do want Linux to grow and spread, that necessitates attracting newbies from Windows to Linux. And so this different viewpoint may be helpful to you. Anyway, my analogy was only a light-hearted thing. I'm not bitter about being criticized or angry at the community. If I've upset people by speaking up, I apologize. I didn't mean to make trouble. And once again I would like to thank the people who have helped me with my Linux troubles, and once again I would like to point out that this community is one of the friendliest and most helpful I have ever dipped into. Kevin Stokes
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
On Thu, 12 Apr 2001, Kevin Stokes wrote: Because you expect other people to implement your suggestion while you do nothing. Some people get my point, and others don't. I don't expect anything. Let me try another analogy, since my first one was lousy; This one is worse. Way worse. Say I'm visiting my uncle in Lynchburg, Tenn. We go to the mall to buy a shirt. The mall is this beautiful 2-story complex with indoor fountains and trees, and very nice shops etc. However, the only way in and out was a rope ladder to narrow passage. We arrive at 10am when they open. There is a crowd of people milling around. They can't find the entrance. Many of them have flown all the way from Redmond, WA to see this wonderful mall. A few have discovered the passage and are climbing in, but most are just in the crowd in the parking lot. They don't know where they're supposed to go and they're getting hot, sweaty, and thirsty. Most end up getting disgusted, and get back in their cars and drive away. Mall == for profit business with incentive to attract as many customers as possible that have to pay for goods. Linux == Free Software created by a community for that community. Many would say it's a meritocracy. After I die from bleeding, they put my corpse on a big wooden frame and mount it on the side of the mall with the caption: Nice. So, what - you're a martyr now? Give us a break. Dumb, Lazy, Selfish Bastard! If the shoe fits... Might want to add glutton for punishment. If this is important to you, then you should be willing to contribute. If it's not, then don't bitch. Don't bitch and expect everyone to cater to your whims, okay? The Linux community is, by and large, NOT just trying to build market share. Some folks would like to see everyone migrate to Linux - and they're making the effort. Maybe not fast enough to satisfy you, but they are. Do you really believe that you've made a point that has never crossed anyone's mind? That you're the first person who has noticed *gasp* that the documentation isn't written so that first graders with learning disabilities can grasp it on the first try? The fact that Linux needs better documentation is well understood. The fact that some people give up in frustration is also understood. You haven't introduced any new information here - you've simply restated a well-known problem, and made it known that you have no interest in solving it. If you have a question to ask, then ask it. Don't be surprised when people point to the existing documentation and say read this first. If Linux is simply too hard for you now, and you're unwilling to make an effort to learn, give it up. It's obvious that you're more interested in complaining than learning. Zonker -- Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 43599611 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Liberty's too precious a thing to be buried in books... Men should hold it up in front of them every single day of their lives and say: I'm free to think and to speak. My ancestors couldn't, I can, and my children will. Boys ought to grow up remembering that. Mr. Smith Goes to Washington -- James Stewart
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
* Kevin Stokes [EMAIL PROTECTED], 2001-04-13 02:06 +0200: [snipped that ... story] Why don't you spend your time to RTFM instead. -Andre
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink
I don't know your parents well enough to comment on the bastard part, but if you want to take without giving, that pretty much is the textbook definition of selfish. What does this wise ass expect someone who knows very little about Linux to contribute to the Linux community? Isn't describing the faults in itself a contribution? Who knows the problems a beginner has better than the beginner? Wise ass, how did you start? Didn't you ever have any questions when you started with Linux? What did you contribute at that time? Everything just fell in place, did it? Contrast this guy's attitude with that of others we see on the list. What is he contributing? Selfishness is also having something shareable and not being willing to share it.
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink
On Thu, Apr 12, 2001 at 10:48:57PM -0400, - wrote: I don't know your parents well enough to comment on the bastard part, but if you want to take without giving, that pretty much is the textbook definition of selfish. What does this wise ass expect someone who knows very little about Linux to contribute to the Linux community? Isn't describing the faults in itself a contribution? Who knows the problems a beginner has better than the beginner? Wise ass, how did you start? Didn't you ever have any questions when you started with Linux? What did you contribute at that time? Everything just fell in place, did it? Contrast this guy's attitude with that of others we see on the list. What is he contributing? Selfishness is also having something shareable and not being willing to share it. Now Alex you wouldn't be trying to be anonymous would you:) kent -- From seeing and seeing the seeing has become so exhausted First line of The Panther - R. M. Rilke
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
Nice. So, what - you're a martyr now? Give us a break. No, I'm not a martyr. I was just trying to be funny.I shouldn't have put that part in, since it didn't add to the analogy. I'm sorry I started the whole thing. I'm going to unsubscribe from the list and leave my Linux box idle for a week or so, and maybe come back to it later. For those who were annoyed by me, I apologize. -Kevin
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED]it was written: Anyway... Does anybody know what steps I need to do in order make ssh work so I can log in remotely? I wanted to try to use Tera Term Pro with the SSH extenstion to log onto my Linux machine from a Windows machine on the local network. Right now if I type: ssh -v -l root rocky I get this error message about authenticity not being established. I made a 'indentification' and an authorization file in the ~/.ssh directory along with the keys created by ssh-keygen, but I really don't know what I'm doing. I just tried to do what it said in the HOWTO link above, and nothing seems to work. Hmm, maybe when you installed ssh you didn't opt to run the ssh server also. This is easily remidied, however, if this is indeed the case, with most modern Debian installations: dpkg-reconfigure ssh Then anser yes (generally by using the left and right arrows to select yes, then hitting enter) when it asks you if you'd like to run the sshd server. As for running telnet, telnet is fine as long as you know your network is private and secure (eg a private subnet lan of which you are the only user) .. otherwise your passwords are exposed in cleartext to anyone who cares to listen. hth as always, nick [EMAIL PROTECTED] * http://www.fargus.net/nick Developer - Systems Engineer - Mad System Guru - MOO Sales he picks up scraps of information/he's adept at adaptation because for strangers and arrangers/constant change is here to stay
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
On Tue, Apr 10, 2001 at 11:37:32PM -0400, Kevin Stokes wrote: Once again I find myself helpless. As unreliable and as frustrating as Windows is, in Linux it seems like you can't do anything without asking for help. I wanted to remotely login from a Windows machine to my linux machine. So I wanted to install telnetd. Everyone said, 'shame on you, telnet is simply awful. You should be chained to the wall and whipped for wanting to use telnet! Use 'ssh' instead.' snip I would encourage you to give putty a try. It is an ssh client that will fit on a floppy. Easy to use. You can nab it at - http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/putty/download.html grab putty.exe Check and make sure you have sshd running on your Debian machine - deb:~$ ps ax | grep sshd 260 ?S 0:08 /usr/sbin/sshd If it is you should be able to just fire up putty and point it to your Debian machine. And he drowns. You start searching archives and HOWTO's. Each thing you find leads you in 10 different directions; 10 more places to look for answers. Only each of those ten leads simply bring up 10 more questions and strange things you never heard of.It seems like there is a infinite sea of little config files, and nested /etc directories, and devices and weird little two-letter commands.And for each of these, there are man pages with 20 options, and completely obscure text which makes no sense unless you already know everything. snip You can tell this from the tone of most newbie posts. They are embarrassed to have to ask these questions. They (read me) have a tough time asking a question which uses terminology correctly, or even coming up a question that makes sense. snip Linux is hard to learn. There is no getting around it. There is no reason for anyone to be embarrassed to ask questions here, if they have made a genuine effort to solve the problem on their own first. Don't expect to get everything working over-night. Just keep plugging away, one thing at a time and you will get there. Relax and have some fun solving problems:) kent -- From seeing and seeing the seeing has become so exhausted First line of The Panther - R. M. Rilke
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
%% Known Human Nick Rusnov [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: khnr As for running telnet, telnet is fine as long as you know your khnr network is private and secure (eg a private subnet lan of which khnr you are the only user) .. otherwise your passwords are exposed khnr in cleartext to anyone who cares to listen. On my local network I have installed and run telnet-ssl and telnetd-ssl. This is normal telnet authentication, but your password, etc. is sent encrypted instead of in the clear. That's enough paranoia for me, since I have a very strict firewall guarding it. Check it out (apt-get install telnet-ssl telnetd-ssl). -- --- Paul D. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]HASMAT--HA Software Methods Tools Please remain calm...I may be mad, but I am a professional. --Mad Scientist --- These are my opinions---Nortel Networks takes no responsibility for them.
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
First tip: when posting regarding a problem, start a new thread, don't reply to an existing one. In threaded mailreaders (I use mutt) your posts shows up well into an existing but unrelated thread. Though at least you're attached to a related SSH problem here on Tue, Apr 10, 2001 at 11:37:32PM -0400, Kevin Stokes ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Once again I find myself helpless. As unreliable and as frustrating as Windows is, in Linux it seems like you can't do anything without asking for help. Yep. I wanted to remotely login from a Windows machine to my linux machine. So I wanted to install telnetd. Everyone said, 'shame on you, telnet is simply awful. You should be chained to the wall and whipped for wanting to use telnet! Use 'ssh' instead.' Yep. Well, ssh got installed along with everything when I installed linux. So I read the man pages for ssh. As is typical of the linux world, it is about 15 pages of utter gobbedly-gook. To be fair, man pages are not meant for newbies to learn linux from scratch. Well, you can always try: $ ssh Which produces, as first line of output: Usage: ssh [options] host [command] ...along with 32 lines of brief help. So I search until I find a HOWTO on ssh. This would be nice if it worked, but of course it doesn't. Everything seems to be different. Their suggestions fail. The paths are different. http://www.linuxdoc.org/LDP/LG/issue61/dellomodarme.html Now I can explain the title of my post. Linux is amazing. There is source code, and binaries and gigabytes of documentation about everything under the sun. All free! But it all seems nearly useless. Take a newbie, and drop him into the sea of freebies. It's not for everyone. Particularly not in pure form. If you like it, great. If you don't -- there's Legacy MS Windows, there's Mac, there's now MacOS X, which is housetrained Unix, there's BeOS, there's the *BSDs, but they're pretty similar to GNU/Linux (though some would argue the man pages are better, though if you really want tender loving personal attention, do something to catch Theo's eye). Most of us are willing to help out, but don't waste our time. You're a newbie, you're having problems. I've been using GNU/Linux for four years, Unix for fourteen, and I'm having my own problems -- snort, glimpse, DNS, leafnode GNU/Linux is a grown-up's operating system. You're expected to know your way around, or be able to figure it out. If you can't or won't, we're fine by that. But don't blame it on GNU/Linux or us. It works, it's free. There's some knowledge to learn. Stop whinging. Shut the computer down and listen to Secret Journey by Sting. There is enlightenment, grasshopper. The enlightement is realizing there is no enlightentment. The keys to mailing list support: - Identify your problem. As best as possible. The program, the error output, and the objective are good starts. If you're not sure, say so. Don't whinge. - Know your help tools. The man pages. Apropos. The HOWTOs. grep. Google. A few good books (poke around my webpage, they're listed). - Pick an appropriate subject (program, problem, error output if possible). I don't need to know you're a newbie (though you can say same in body), and no, it's not urgent for me. Stop whinging! - Provide all pertinant information, while keeping your posts short and sweet and to the point. Quit it with the whinging already. I've got a lot of free time on my hands right now, and I'm still reduced to rolling through debian-user looking for unanswered posts with concise titles that haven't been extensively responded to, which I might provide some insight on. YouYou're wasting my time. But there's a broader lesson to be learned, some I'm typing this into the list archives, Google, and possibly a few personal archives. An no fscking whinging! - Tattoo this to your chest. If you can't read in mirror, have it reversed so you can read it every morning. How to Report Bugs Effectively Simon Tatham http://www-mice.cs.ucl.ac.uk/multimedia/software/documentation/ReportingBugs.html (Note: I originally saw this posted at Freshmeat, bylined by jeff covey jeff.covey at pobox.com on February 26th 2000, but it's disappeared from there, and is currently credited to Simon Tatham. The Freshmeat link was: http://freshmeat.net/news/2000/02/26/951627540.html) And he drowns. You start searching archives and HOWTO's. Each thing you find leads you in 10 different directions; 10 more places to look for answers. At this point, stop and ask for guidance. Local support, or a small group, is helpful for those small little problems. Larger lists may have expertise, but also often much noise. ... Take the last time I needed help. A generous and helpful person told me to do the
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
%% Kevin Stokes [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ks I wanted to remotely login from a Windows machine to my linux ks machine. So I wanted to install telnetd. Everyone said, 'shame ks on you, telnet is simply awful. You should be chained to the wall ks and whipped for wanting to use telnet! Use 'ssh' instead.' As with all of the 'Net, don't believe everything you read. You should understand the security issues involved with telnet. Your password will be sent in cleartext over the network between your system and the remote system. Anyone capable of intercepting that network traffic will be able to steal your password, then log in to the target system (and any other systems where you use the same password). If you understand these risks and you're OK with them, telnet is fine. In general, though, it's better to avoid insecure protocols like telnet: get into the habit now to avoid trouble later. Remember that you must have the telnet _server_ installed on Linux if you want to log into the Linux box from another system; make sure the telnetd package is installed (apt-get install telnetd). ks Well, ssh got installed along with everything when I installed ks linux. So I read the man pages for ssh. As is typical of the ks linux world, it is about 15 pages of utter gobbedly-gook. To be ks fair, man pages are not meant for newbies to learn linux from ks scratch. Indeed. And, things like ssh are more complex than most commands. Note there are a large number of web sites, etc. devoted to helping Linux newbies. There are also books, both hardcopy and online versions. There's lots of resources, but most of it is on the net, not on your local box. ks So I search until I find a HOWTO on ssh. This would be nice if it ks worked, but of course it doesn't. Everything seems to be ks different. Their suggestions fail. The paths are different. ks http://www.linuxdoc.org/LDP/LG/issue61/dellomodarme.html This describes obtaining and installing ssh from scratch. It's also talking about a completely different version of SSH; this is the commercial SSH; Debian uses the free version created by the OpenBSD folks, OpenSSH. In short, this HOWTO does not really apply well to Debian, or even most other Linux distros. Why someone thinks it's a good idea to explain how to install the proprietary version of SSH on a Linux box in January, 2001 is beyond me. Ask the Linux Gazette what the heck they're thinking. In short, ignore this HOWTO. See below. As for directories; here's something to know: When Debian packages are built to install on your system, they install in the system directories (/usr/bin, etc.) When you build packages yourself, they typically install in directories specifically set aside for users to install software, under /usr/local. This is A Good Thing, since it allows you to install your own copies of software in a clean way, without disrupting the system versions. ks There is something that Linux needs much more than anything else, ks and that is a decent help system. We need something about 50 ks times larger than the man pages. Something which always has an ks extensive chapter in simple layman language, and lots of examples ks with clear steps with *explanations*. And also a way to get to ks the more typically man page type stuff for the people who need ks that. ks Who is willing to create such a thing? Not me, I'm not a Linux ks devotee. That's the problem. The people writing the program write documentation that makes sense to them and to other people using it. This documentation is naturally technical in nature. There's a certain critical mass of knowledge you need to obtain before you can really start understanding the documentation. What's needed is for people like _you_ to help write super newbie docs. We can't do it. We're not newbies. We don't know what newbies need. ks But the bottom line is that the Windows Help system totally blows ks away all the confusing HOWTO's, man pages, or archived email ks searches. See, here's a prime example of the differences in our perspective. The Windows Help system _sucks_ huge boulders through coffee stirrers. It totally blows chunks. It has _NOTHING_ in it that I could ever possibly need to be told. I ask it how to do something and it never tells me, it just gives me some generic mush, if anything, that's totally obvious in the first place. I wanted to know how to remap my CAPSLOCK key to be a control key. It didn't know. I wanted to know how to keep my CDROM drive from spinning down so quickly. It didn't know. I wanted to find out a hundred things like that. Windows Help was utterly and completely useless. Sure, it was great if I wanted to know that C-x was the keyboard shortcut for Cut and C-v was the shortcut for Paste. Whoop-de-doo. :) ks Anyway... Does anybody know what steps I need to do in order make ks ssh work so I can log in remotely? I wanted to try to use
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
On Tue, Apr 10, 2001 at 10:52:54PM -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote: now MacOS X, which is housetrained Unix, [...] thats not what i would call it. i would call it a neutered Unix thats been run over by a truck. -- Ethan Benson http://www.alaska.net/~erbenson/ pgpI4OsWuRLgS.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
okay, paul, i'm officially recruiting you, hammer-and-tongs, as a newbiedoc contributor. your prose is wonderful and echoes frmo hill and dale with a sparkling clarity that... oh, hell, you can write, man! delightful! and kevin, when the light goes on, and all the fog clears, imagine how much hair-pulling you'll save the next poor soul if you document what you learned... hmm? http://sourceForge.net/projects/newbiedoc/ On Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 03:39:55AM -0400, Paul D. Smith wrote: %% Kevin Stokes [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ks There is something that Linux needs much more than anything else, ks and that is a decent help system. We need something about 50 ks times larger than the man pages. Something which always has an ks extensive chapter in simple layman language, and lots of examples ks with clear steps with *explanations*. And also a way to get to ks the more typically man page type stuff for the people who need ks that. ks Who is willing to create such a thing? Not me, I'm not a Linux ks devotee. That's the problem. The people writing the program write documentation that makes sense to them and to other people using it. This documentation is naturally technical in nature. There's a certain critical mass of knowledge you need to obtain before you can really start understanding the documentation. What's needed is for people like _you_ to help write super newbie docs. We can't do it. We're not newbies. We don't know what newbies need. i beg to differ! http://sourceForge.net/projects/newbiedoc/ ks But the bottom line is that the Windows Help system totally blows ks away all the confusing HOWTO's, man pages, or archived email ks searches. See, here's a prime example of the differences in our perspective. The Windows Help system _sucks_ huge boulders through coffee stirrers. It totally blows chunks. that may wind up in a ~/.signature soon! :) ks Anyway... Does anybody know what steps I need to do in order make ks ssh work so I can log in remotely? I wanted to try to use Tera ks Term Pro with the SSH extenstion to log onto my Linux machine from ks a Windows machine on the local network. ks Right now if I type: ks ssh -v -l root rocky Here's the thing. You can't login remotely as root, by default, over ssh: the ssh setup disallows this (as with everything in UNIX, this is configurable if you really want to do it--it's a bad idea so it's disabled initially). You don't want to work as root, at all, ever, anytime, anywhere, anyplace. Even for testing. _Especially_ for testing. Use root only when you must do root operations, then run screaming into the bushes again immediately after you've done that operation. wonderful! Be careful! That private key is like your password; anyone who gets a copy can get into your system. It's a good idea to sign the key with a passphrase when ssh-keygen asks for one: then people not only need the private key but they also need your passphrase. This is more secure because the passphrase is used only to unlock the key locally; neither the passphrase _NOR_ the key itself are ever transmitted over the network. Public/private key cryptography is not the most straightforward thing in the world, unfortunately. or fortunately, depending on which facet you're looking into. :) -- americans should never read anything so subversive as what's at http://www.salon.com/people/col/pagl/2001/03/21/spring/index1.html [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://sourceForge.net/projects/newbiedoc -- we need your brain! http://www.dontUthink.com/ -- your brain needs us!
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
On Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 03:39:55AM -0400, Paul D. Smith wrote: Be root: # groupadd kevin # useradd -g kevin -m kevin # passwd kevin um you only have to do it that way if you use roothat. debian has a very nice utility that does all 3 of those steps in one simple command: Be root: # adduser kevin thats it, it will create the group, the user, ask you for a password, and ask you for nice things like your full name and such. -- Ethan Benson http://www.alaska.net/~erbenson/ pgpfzvgaeMyuq.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
On Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 01:22:42AM -0400, Paul D. Smith wrote: On my local network I have installed and run telnet-ssl and telnetd-ssl. This is normal telnet authentication, but your password, etc. is sent encrypted instead of in the clear. That's enough paranoia for me, since I have a very strict firewall guarding it. Are there any decent SSL telnet clients for non Unix platforms? noah -- ___ | Web: http://web.morgul.net/~frodo/ | PGP Public Key: http://web.morgul.net/~frodo/mail.html pgpdyAMr62rZw.pgp Description: PGP signature
RE: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
Since you're asking for non-unix platforms try this search on google returned good results http://www.google.com/search?hl=nlsafe=offq=ssl+windows+telnet+freewarelr = I would advise TeraTerm if you're living in an English native country. There are some issues with international keyboards wich couldn't be resolved, at least not by me. regards, joris -Original Message- From: Noah L. Meyerhans [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: woensdag 11 april 2001 13:04 To: Debian User List Subject: Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink. On Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 01:22:42AM -0400, Paul D. Smith wrote: On my local network I have installed and run telnet-ssl and telnetd-ssl. This is normal telnet authentication, but your password, etc. is sent encrypted instead of in the clear. That's enough paranoia for me, since I have a very strict firewall guarding it. Are there any decent SSL telnet clients for non Unix platforms? noah -- ___ | Web: http://web.morgul.net/~frodo/ | PGP Public Key: http://web.morgul.net/~frodo/mail.html
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
PS - People take all their accumulated windows knowledge for granted. Years and years and years of it, and then expect that they can learn a new OS over night. Simply rediculous. The truth is that I have *never* purchased or read a book on using the Windows operating system. I've never had to go online and look for DOC, with the exception of when Microsoft stuff crashes, in which case you can use their knowledge base. I had never even used the Windows Help system until my network didn't work. And then it was useful stuff. Their network stuff for 95/98 is a mess, and doesn't work right. But the help file was readable and gave you clear instructions on what you were supposed to do. Anyway, the purpose of my post was not to criticize Linux. The purpose was to point out to people that Linux could have a much brighter future than it does now. My point is for every page which is actually readable by a newbie, there are 100 pages of stuff which is incomprehensible to him. A zillion pages on how to do all kinds of exotic cool things, and hardly any organized info on how to get Linux running with a GUI so you can run a word-processor, internet browser, email, and and be able to get printouts. And those pages which *are* suitable for newbies are mixed in with all the expert stuff. So I like Linux itself, and am pretty soured on Windows. But in my opinion people who are devoted to Linux could improve the market share dramatically by spending less time coming up with new kernels and versions of everything, and more time looking at why people who try Linux turn away after a short experiment. -Kevin Stokes
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
However, please don't abuse the community by going into hysterics because Linux isn't dead easy. There was no abusing of the community in the posting I made.I tried to make it clear that I am anti-windows, and I am sort-of pro-Linux. As to your assertion that Linux is chasing away the very people it needs - that's a fallacy. I don't think it is. How many copies of Redhat, Suse and the others were sold in the last two years? How many copies of Debian were downloaded by newbies in the last two years? Total those up and call it N. Of those N, how many are running Linux today? I'll bet it is less than N/10, and could be as low as N/100. The point of my post is not to whine and complain about Linux. The point is: 1.) I assume most of the Linux community would like to see Linux be the dominant OS in the world, and think it deserves this. 2.) In order to accomplish this, it will be necessary for most users to switch from Windows to Linux. 3.) If a guy like me (who has installed and operated OS's from Assembly on the Cosmac Elf II, to Basic in ROM on an Ohio Scientific Challenger 4P, to Data General RDOS, to PDP's RT11, to CP/M, FORTH, and DOS and Windows), cannot seem to do the simplest thing in Linux, then Linux (and the doc) is in a form that (1) and (2) will not occur. If the Linux community does not care about (1) and (2), then I think they are heading in the right direction. Once again, let me stress that I think the Linux community is *extremely* polite and helpful, and that Linux is good and there is lots of great doc out there. I'm not attacking anybody or anything. I'm simply trying to say (1), (2), (3) above. -Kevin Stokes
OT : RE: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
To really start a fire here ... I personally think that this has to do with Debian more then with Linux itself. Other linuxdistro's like RedHat, Mandrake, Corel are focusing on the usability. Debian is more like a sysadmin tool. Maybe it simply lacks an introduction wich is easy to find. Most of the documentation is readable enough for the determined. In the past i've posted on this issue myself but this list does not seem to be the right one for such discussions. Maybe there exists, or the community needs, such a list where people can talk about the very concept of the linux distro. It must also be known that linux itself is a kernel together with some standard tools, not a complete distribution. AFAIK there is no 'standard' on how to structure a distribution or how to make it userfriendly. In itself Linux is really not harder then any other unix oriented system out there, it is just less mature. All the fuzz about linux is mostly due too people not realising that this is no kiddy stuff. This is ther REAL thing, not a customized OS like windows. I worked with both for some time now and both have their merits. The biggest frustration is indeed that the Linux community seems to lack a visionary who wants to make Linux WoRk on a desktop and not just run on a desktop. Some company's are putting effort in to this but they're not very eager to do so. Imagine the gigantic support centers (and budgets) needed for this, they are just not ready for it. So they are happy with the way it works now, as a server in enterprises or in embedded systems and so on. Greets, Joris -Original Message- From: Kevin Stokes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: woensdag 11 april 2001 14:41 To: debian-user@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink. However, please don't abuse the community by going into hysterics because Linux isn't dead easy. There was no abusing of the community in the posting I made.I tried to make it clear that I am anti-windows, and I am sort-of pro-Linux. As to your assertion that Linux is chasing away the very people it needs - that's a fallacy. I don't think it is. How many copies of Redhat, Suse and the others were sold in the last two years? How many copies of Debian were downloaded by newbies in the last two years? Total those up and call it N. Of those N, how many are running Linux today? I'll bet it is less than N/10, and could be as low as N/100. The point of my post is not to whine and complain about Linux. The point is: 1.) I assume most of the Linux community would like to see Linux be the dominant OS in the world, and think it deserves this. 2.) In order to accomplish this, it will be necessary for most users to switch from Windows to Linux. 3.) If a guy like me (who has installed and operated OS's from Assembly on the Cosmac Elf II, to Basic in ROM on an Ohio Scientific Challenger 4P, to Data General RDOS, to PDP's RT11, to CP/M, FORTH, and DOS and Windows), cannot seem to do the simplest thing in Linux, then Linux (and the doc) is in a form that (1) and (2) will not occur. If the Linux community does not care about (1) and (2), then I think they are heading in the right direction. Once again, let me stress that I think the Linux community is *extremely* polite and helpful, and that Linux is good and there is lots of great doc out there. I'm not attacking anybody or anything. I'm simply trying to say (1), (2), (3) above. -Kevin Stokes -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
GNU/Linux is a grown-up's operating system. You're expected to know your way around, or be able to figure it out. I'm sorry, but the 'You're dumb or lazy or both' argument will not fly. There is an easily-correctable problem with Linux, and I hope the good people who devote so much time to Linux will see that. There is nothing I have seen in Linux which is any more difficult than other operating systems I have used. The difference is that most of the doc is oriented towards the person who already knows everything. It is just so silly that Linux developers have worked so hard to make the software itself very good, but then leave it in a state where 98 percent of potential Linux users fall in deep hole if they try it. If the point of Linux is to develop a little club of elite members who have this great software, then the Linux development community is doing great. If the point of Linux is to become the dominant OS in the world, and show everybody how free software is superior, then they have some work to do. Once again, this is not meant to be an attack on Linux, or the extremely helpful and friendly Linux people. It is an opinionated observation on how Linux could be improved, from the perspective of somebody who is not dumb or lazy. I think all Linux needs is a help system designed to be as good or better than the Windows Help file. A large index of topics, each one with 6 to 10 page plain-language intro, and lots of typical examples (each with an explanation) of how to do common things.If this could cover all the standard newbie things, and it got installed along with everything else so the user didn't need a browser or email running in order to get help, then Linux would be much more popular. All those people who install it but end up reformating the partition after a week of failure would instead join the community.The question is, what does the Linux community want? -Kevin Stokes
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
%% Noah L. Meyerhans [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: nlm On Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 01:22:42AM -0400, Paul D. Smith wrote: On my local network I have installed and run telnet-ssl and telnetd-ssl. This is normal telnet authentication, but your password, etc. is sent encrypted instead of in the clear. That's enough paranoia for me, since I have a very strict firewall guarding it. nlm Are there any decent SSL telnet clients for non Unix platforms? Ah! Yes. The $64,000 question. Well, maybe these days closer to $6,400 :). I don't know. But it would be nice if there were. However, I think SSH can act like SSL telnet, in that it can authenticate using normal passwords rather than RSA or DSA keys. And of course there are numerous SSH clients. Equally obviously, it's not telnet, so if you have firewall issues or something that might be a consideration (although I sure don't know what admin in his right mind is going let telnet through a firewall while blocking ssh! :) -- --- Paul D. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]HASMAT--HA Software Methods Tools Please remain calm...I may be mad, but I am a professional. --Mad Scientist --- These are my opinions---Nortel Networks takes no responsibility for them.
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
On Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 09:25:16AM -0400, Kevin Stokes wrote: There is nothing I have seen in Linux which is any more difficult than other operating systems I have used. The difference is that most of the doc is oriented towards the person who already knows everything. It is just so silly that Linux developers have worked so hard to make the software itself very good, but then leave it in a state where 98 percent of potential Linux users fall in deep hole if they try it. just like parents never remember what it is to be a teenager, hackers never remember what it is to be a newbie. I think all Linux needs is a help system designed to be as good or better than the Windows Help file. A large index of topics, each one with 6 to 10 ok so all we need is a gui interface to a well indexed /dev/null. okey dokey. -- Ethan Benson http://www.alaska.net/~erbenson/ pgp0zWr7ySMEC.pgp Description: PGP signature
RE: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
:: If the point of Linux is to develop a little club of elite members who :: have this great software, then the Linux development community is doing :: great. If the point of Linux is to become the dominant OS in the world, :: and show everybody how free software is superior, then they have some work :: to do. Now it has been said i must admit that i've encountered some 'elitarians' in the linux world, and these are close to being full born fascists. If you don't get along with the information at hand they consider you to be a dumb ass. This however seems to be more like a IT related issue then a linux related issue. Those who love to consider themselves naturally born it professionals love the 'elite' idea. I personally believe that they are, though highly intelligent, stuck in the gorilla stage of human evolution and are probably 'protecting' their property. Happilly coding away on some open-source software with their allies, about wich no mortal can grasp the internals. Determined to dominate the cruel and 'most importantly' STUPID world out there, because they are superior (or simply more aggressive but you'll never hear them say that). These people do NOT seem to realise that THEY are the ones who give a face to Linux, and are doing a verry bad job at it. It's something like a linux-port of the Unix admin who was notorious for his grumphy moods. Sort of like Savages with silicon guns. Sad to see really if you realise the impact linux has had and the momentum it gained. I'll stop right here because i'm getting really pissed off. I leaving for a safari in the nearest IT Building :) Regards, Joris -Original Message- From: Kevin Stokes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: woensdag 11 april 2001 15:25 To: debian-user@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink. GNU/Linux is a grown-up's operating system. You're expected to know your way around, or be able to figure it out. I'm sorry, but the 'You're dumb or lazy or both' argument will not fly. There is an easily-correctable problem with Linux, and I hope the good people who devote so much time to Linux will see that. There is nothing I have seen in Linux which is any more difficult than other operating systems I have used. The difference is that most of the doc is oriented towards the person who already knows everything. It is just so silly that Linux developers have worked so hard to make the software itself very good, but then leave it in a state where 98 percent of potential Linux users fall in deep hole if they try it. If the point of Linux is to develop a little club of elite members who have this great software, then the Linux development community is doing great. If the point of Linux is to become the dominant OS in the world, and show everybody how free software is superior, then they have some work to do. Once again, this is not meant to be an attack on Linux, or the extremely helpful and friendly Linux people. It is an opinionated observation on how Linux could be improved, from the perspective of somebody who is not dumb or lazy. I think all Linux needs is a help system designed to be as good or better than the Windows Help file. A large index of topics, each one with 6 to 10 page plain-language intro, and lots of typical examples (each with an explanation) of how to do common things.If this could cover all the standard newbie things, and it got installed along with everything else so the user didn't need a browser or email running in order to get help, then Linux would be much more popular. All those people who install it but end up reformating the partition after a week of failure would instead join the community.The question is, what does the Linux community want? -Kevin Stokes -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
On Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 07:04:14AM -0400, Noah L. Meyerhans wrote: Are there any decent SSL telnet clients for non Unix platforms? None that I'm aware of, but telnet-ssl and telnetd-ssl fall back to plaintext if the other end doesn't support encryption. If you've gotta have your telnet, this makes them an ideal solution, but if you're paranoid, it's a killer - I removed telnetd-ssl when I discovered this because I couldn't find a way to turn the fallback behaviour off. -- That's not gibberish... It's Linux. - Byers, The Lone Gunmen Geek Code 3.1: GCS d? s+: a- C++ UL++$ P+ L+++ E- W--(++) N+ o+ !K w---$ O M- V? PS+ PE Y+ PGP t 5++ X+ R++ tv b+ DI D G e* h+ r y+
SSL : RE: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
I have posted a google search result wich DOES return ssl telnet clients for non-unix platforms. Don't have that link at hand anymore, search the archives. -Original Message- From: Dave Sherohman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: woensdag 11 april 2001 16:05 To: Debian User List Subject: Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink. On Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 07:04:14AM -0400, Noah L. Meyerhans wrote: Are there any decent SSL telnet clients for non Unix platforms? None that I'm aware of, but telnet-ssl and telnetd-ssl fall back to plaintext if the other end doesn't support encryption. If you've gotta have your telnet, this makes them an ideal solution, but if you're paranoid, it's a killer - I removed telnetd-ssl when I discovered this because I couldn't find a way to turn the fallback behaviour off. -- That's not gibberish... It's Linux. - Byers, The Lone Gunmen Geek Code 3.1: GCS d? s+: a- C++ UL++$ P+ L+++ E- W--(++) N+ o+ !K w---$ O M- V? PS+ PE Y+ PGP t 5++ X+ R++ tv b+ DI D G e* h+ r y+ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
ks http://www.linuxdoc.org/LDP/LG/issue61/dellomodarme.html In short, this HOWTO does not really apply well to Debian, or even most other Linux distros. Yeah, I got it from a website call 'Linuxdoc', so I thought it was supposed to apply to me. I did a search for 'ssh login remote', hoping to find a tutorial on what the hell I was supposed to do. The above was the only thing that came up which was aimed at somebody trying to get ssh to work for the first time. What's needed is for people like _you_ to help write super newbie docs. We can't do it. We're not newbies. We don't know what newbies need. This is a catch-22. Newbies don't care enough about Linux to spend time writing doc. Instead, their hands are hovering over a MSDOS floppy with 'FDISK' on it, trying to decide if they've had enough! There is one document which was well written for newbies, and that is the debian install documentation. There were two or three big holes that I fell into, but besides that it was great. The Windows Help system _sucks_ huge boulders through coffee stirrers. It totally blows chunks. Objectively, you may be right. As I said, I never even started up Windows Help until I couldn't get my Win95 network to function. However, if the person looking at the help file is an average home computer user, then Windows Help gets a score of 3 out of 10, and Linux (HOWTO's + Man Pages + mail archives) gets a score of .001 out of 10. Once again, I'm not trying to attack Linux or the people here who are so helpful, or the writers of current Linux doc. I'm merely trying to point out what to me is the #1 obvious reason that Linux isn't taking over the Windows market. All the expert doc and current man pages are fine, but there is no reason the Linux community can't provide both. A newbie help system which as total and complete as the OS itself would make all the difference in the world.IE, benefit to the Linux marketshare by coming out with a new version of the kernel and new versions of everything: 1%Benefit to the Linux marketshare by providing comprehensive in-the-box newbie helpfile: 1000% To use RSA (public/private) key authentication, do this: I thank you and the others who have helped me, for friendly well-written explanations. I have saved these messages in my Linux-help mail folder, but I pity the next poor guy who just wants to login remotely to his newly installed-linux. I have wasted hours of my time, and probably at least 40 minutes of yours -Kevin Stokes
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
and kevin, when the light goes on, and all the fog clears, imagine how much hair-pulling you'll save the next poor soul if you document what you learned... hmm? Ahh, but I'm not a Linux or Free-Software devotee.I would guess that the Linux community doesn't just write software and doc for themselves; They would want their OS to grow and spread far and wide. As I understand it, the developers would want more people to use it, even if those people didn't become disciples of Free Software themselves. I am one of them. I resurrected an older machine and plopped a cheap HD from Ebay in it. I wanted to install Linux on it and then apache, and try running a little web server with my cable modem. I did not want to become a Linux Guru, although I am very open to the idea of using Linux more often. However, it has been two weeks, and I've barely got Linux up and running. Any attempt at fiddling ends in long hours of searching websites, email archives and ends with begging for help from strangers via email. Yes, I could write good newbie doc. But I'm extremely busy with my own stuff, and have spent far to much time on postings about this anyway. I realize that my words aren't going to turn the lights on by themselves. But perhaps over time as more newbies vocalize their suprise at the lack of any offical information directed at their level, one of the devotees will decide to reapportion the Linux development effort a little. Not because they want to help the poor helpless newbies, but because by reapportioning the group effort, the group could come closer to accomplishing their goal. Kevin Stokes Pie in the Sky Software www.pieskysoft.com
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
On Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 08:41:09AM -0400, Kevin Stokes wrote: I don't think it is. How many copies of Redhat, Suse and the others were sold in the last two years? How many copies of Debian were downloaded by newbies in the last two years? Total those up and call it N. Of those N, how many are running Linux today? I'll bet it is less than N/10, and could be as low as N/100. Or it could be as high as N * 10. Don't forget that linux fanatics tend to be just that: fanatics. In the last month, I've downloaded one Debian CD image, installed it on 4 boxes, kept one for myself, set up one as a server, and passed the other two on to people who know nothing about linux. By the end of the year (although the end of next year is more realistic), I intend to have used that same CD to set up somewhere around 100 more Debian boxes and place them in the hands of people who know little-to-nothing about computers. Those users who already have linux boxes have very little difficulty with them. IMO, part of the problem you're encountering is that _using_ linux isn't really any tougher than using windows, but you're looking for user-level documentation on admin-level tasks. I'll readily admit that it doesn't really exist - and I'm not sure that it should. Another message has commented on how useless the windows help system is for anything outside the average user experience. In other words, all that user-level documentation sucks if you try to get admin-level information out of it. This is essentially a manifestation of the rule I discovered when I first encountered Visual Basic: The vast majority of the time, putting effort into making a tool easy to use for a specific task makes it correspondingly more difficult to use for anything the designer didn't foresee. (I suppose the converse comes into play here also: A general-purpose tool (such as most *nix commands) tends to be more difficult to use.) 1.) I assume most of the Linux community would like to see Linux be the dominant OS in the world, and think it deserves this. Personally, I'm mainly concerned about being able to use linux (or something else unixy) myself. From there, it follows that I don't really care what the rest of the world uses. If I want others to let me choose my own OS, I should let them choose theirs also. -- That's not gibberish... It's Linux. - Byers, The Lone Gunmen Geek Code 3.1: GCS d? s+: a- C++ UL++$ P+ L+++ E- W--(++) N+ o+ !K w---$ O M- V? PS+ PE Y+ PGP t 5++ X+ R++ tv b+ DI D G e* h+ r y+
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
On Wed, 11 Apr 2001, Kevin Stokes wrote: and kevin, when the light goes on, and all the fog clears, imagine how much hair-pulling you'll save the next poor soul if you document what you learned... hmm? Ahh, but I'm not a Linux or Free-Software devotee. This is where you lose the sympathy of a lot of people. You've identified a problem and you want other people to spend their time and energy on it but you're not willing to spend any yourself. Will suggested an eminently sensible solution, you said you couldn't be bothered. I would guess that the Linux community doesn't just write software and doc for themselves; They would want their OS to grow and spread far and wide. As I understand it, the developers would want more people to use it, even if those people didn't become disciples of Free Software themselves. Not parasites. They have my official permission to keep using other OS's. I am one of them. I resurrected an older machine and plopped a cheap HD from Ebay in it. I wanted to install Linux on it and then apache, and try running a little web server with my cable modem. I did not want to become a Linux Guru, although I am very open to the idea of using Linux more often. However, it has been two weeks, and I've barely got Linux up and running. Any attempt at fiddling ends in long hours of searching websites, email archives and ends with begging for help from strangers via email. Do they have bookstores where you are from? Last time I went to my local Borders, they had sheleves of books on Linux including some at the newbie level and some specifically about setting up web servers. Most seem to be Red Hat oriented but there's some Debian ones too. If you jump into any subject headfirst it's bound to be difficult to make progress. Wouldn't a more systematic approach make more sense? Yes, I could write good newbie doc. But I'm extremely busy with my own stuff, A... and have spent far to much time on postings about this anyway. I realize that my words aren't going to turn the lights on by themselves. But perhaps over time as more newbies vocalize their suprise at the lack of any offical information directed at their level, one of the devotees will decide to reapportion the Linux development effort a little. Not because they want to help the poor helpless newbies, but because by reapportioning the group effort, the group could come closer to accomplishing their goal. Documentation requires nothing more than a basic command of English (or other languages let's not forget the international audience) and a willingness to write down what you did to solve a particular problem. As more people do that, it will get easier and easier for future newbies. The concept that seems to be eluding you is that YOU are as much a part of the group as Linus Torvalds himself. There is no coordinator or central body who says we're going to spend x amount of time on this or that. People who are involved in Linux do so either because it amuses them or to fulfill some need. You've identified a problem, do something about it! -- Jaldhar H. Vyas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
The concept that seems to be eluding you is that YOU are as much a part of the group as Linus Torvalds himself. There is no coordinator or central body who says we're going to spend x amount of time on this or that. People who are involved in Linux do so either because it amuses them or to fulfill some need. You've identified a problem, do something about it! Exactly. And no more god damn whining (or whinging), please... -Brian
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
Kevin == Kevin Stokes [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Once again I find myself helpless. As unreliable and as frustrating as Windows is, in Linux it seems like you can't do anything without asking for help. I wanted to remotely login from a Windows machine to my linux machine. [...] -Kevin Stokes frustrated Linux Newbie. It might help you manage your frustration if you keep in mind that doing the opposite is even harder. When was the last time you remotely logged in to a windows 9x box, from linux or any other platform? (you can do that, in a manner of speaking, if you install the vnc packages) Mike P.S. From the windows side, you can install teraterm and use it connect to a machine running an ssh server.
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
* Kevin Stokes [EMAIL PROTECTED], 2001-04-11 18:15 +0200: [...] I am one of them. I resurrected an older machine and plopped a cheap HD from Ebay in it. I wanted to install Linux on it and then apache, and try running a little web server with my cable modem. I did not want to become a Linux Guru, although I am very open to the idea of using Linux more often. It might be dangerous to expose your machine to the internet if you don't know what you're actually doing (but then, who does). Any attempt at fiddling ends in long hours of searching websites, email archives and ends with begging for help from strangers via email. In a lot of cases, you're dealing with professional stuff. That's why configuration is often complex. And yes, I've also begged total strangers for their help, and _all_ of them have been very friendly so far, some people spent a _lot_ of time to help me. Just do alike when someone else asks you... [...] by reapportioning the group effort, the group could come closer to accomplishing their goal. Keep it up Andre Berger[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT : RE: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
On Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 03:27:04PM +0200, Joris Lambrecht wrote: | I personally think that this has to do with Debian more then with Linux | itself. Other linuxdistro's like RedHat, Mandrake, Corel are focusing on the | usability. Debian is more like a sysadmin tool. Maybe it simply lacks an | introduction wich is easy to find. Most of the documentation is readable | enough for the determined. I think that an introduction that is easy for inexperienced people to start with would be a good thing. It should include references to more detailed/advanced documentation and also mention the common pitfalls or things to look out for. Explaining in simplistic terms the basic organziation of the system seems to be the part that is most lacking. As we have all seen, the Windows help system is useless if you have half a clue what you are doing, or you are trying to setup something new. I have found the documentation (howtos, this list) to be very helpful in explaining (almost) everything and showing how to get info from the system to diagnose the problem. OTOH, I am a softare engineering student so I am on the more geeky end of the spectrum as opposed to the newbie side. I have been using Linux for ~2 years now. I used RedHat, then switched to Debian only about half a year ago. I started with DOS, then moved throught the various windows beginning 9 years ago. I have hardly read any documentation about windows, the majority of from Linux sources. Trying to solve something not working in windows is difficult since there is no documentation (like my network at home ...). Just trying random-guesses at a solution is easy since there is a pointy-clicky-try-this-and-hope-for-the-best interface. I find diagnosing and solving problems much easier in Linux, and the documentation explains things well. Linuxconf (on RH) makes it easier for an inexperienced user to get a working system, but I've enjoyed learning how the system really works since I installed Debian. I am in favor of creating a document that introduces the concept and organization of a Debian system with pointers to common situations and more advanced documentation. I think sprinkling it with funny stories of our own blunders will help show newbies what can go wrong, how to solve it, and that they aren't the only ones to mess up. ATTN all newbies : feel free to post any questions to the list. I actually enjoy helping (when I can), but don't be a whiner when the system can't read your mind -- instead post all information you think is relevant and be polite. :-) -D PS - (story of my introduction to computing : ) To begin with I am 20 years old, a 3rd year Software Engineering major at RIT (5-year program, includes co-op). I started learing how to use my dad's computer when I was in 7th grade (early 90's) -- a Packard Bell 286 with DOS 3.3. I learned the basic filesystem movement commands, but little more. Then he upgraded to Win 3.1 with a Gateway 2000 486. In 95 when Win95 was released he upgraded to that. I learned each in succession. My senior year of high school I had a co-op job with a large local corporation. My desktop machine was a Win95 system. The other co-op in the group had NT4.0. They also had Sun Solaris systems. most interesting part begins It turned out that my family knew the family of one of the Unix admins there. He showed me how to login (via telnet) to the solaris system and some basic commands : ls == dir cp == copy mv == ren rm == del cd == cd He also showed me vi. I knew only the following commands : h j k l i x dd :w :q That admin gave me a short document on Unix commands and a cheat sheet on vi. I didn't really read them closely until much later. My opinion was that Unix was ancient and Windows far exceeded it. Shows how much I knew ;-). I got a computer when I started college and it had Win98 preinstalled. The CS lab at school has Sun Solaris systems. I had no trouble using them since I already knew the basic commands. What I didn't know was how to do anything particularly interesting. I started to learn how to configure stuff on my account that year. I also heard about linux, and decided to get a second hard drive and install it at the beginning of my second year. RH 5.2 Unleashed. The XFree it included didn't work with my video card (only 640x480x8, ugh!) and I didn't know much about admining it. When RH6.1 was released I upgraded and got a nicely working system (GNOME and all). I learned more about using the system and I began to use windows less and less. This year when RH7.0 was released I upgraded. I learned of my mistake afterwards, and started to check out Debian. I installed Debian as a triple-boot system, but windows was rarely booted. I now have a co-op job where I must use Win2k as my desktop (it was WinNT until it decided not to boot one morning). I would much prefer to use Debian, but I fake it as much as possible with cygwin. As mentioned
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
On Tuesday 10 April 2001 20:37, Kevin Stokes wrote: Now I can explain the title of my post. Don't need to. My trucks AC system caused a fire, hot fire, big scary fire! I was only a few hundred meters from the pacific ocean, it was just down that cliff! All that water . . . :) Why the hell didn't I think of doing that? How could you?! It's greek man! They (read me) have a tough time asking a question which uses terminology correctly, or even coming up a question that makes sense. Linux documentation is going nutz on this project as I type this reply. In fact, debian folks are now looking for kind souls to write man pages for some 600 applications right this very moment. Documentation *IS* a priority. Yet, for the new people who only see a new windoz release every 2-4 years, you get ONE, count it, *ONE* way. Linux includes thousands. Now, add the concept that linux and associated apps change really on a daily basis. It's pretty tough to keep up with that workload! New kernel came down the pike. New qt's, new X... But it IS coming, and there's hopes that the documentation will coinside the releases. Anyway... Does anybody know what steps I need to do in order make ssh work so I can log in remotely? I wanted to try to use Tera Term Pro with the SSH extenstion to log onto my Linux machine from a Windows machine on the local network. Right now if I type: ssh -v -l root rocky Typically, we want to ban 'root' remote access. On my own box, I was presented with a dialog regarding whether or not I would allow root access. I said *no* and that way I can only ssh as a user, THEN *su -* to superuser mode. Please try it and see if that helps. -Kevin Stokes frustrated Linux Newbie. Thanks Kevin, I enjoyed your note. tatah -- Jaye Inabnit\ARS ke6sls/TELE: USA-707-442-6579\/A GNU-Debian linux user Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] WEB: http://www.qsl.net/ke6sls ICQ: 12741145 If it's stupid, but works, it ain't stupid. SHOUT JUST FOR FUN. Free software, in a free world, for a free spirit. Please Support freedom!
Re: OT : RE: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
On Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 01:07:02PM -0400, D-Man wrote: I think that an introduction that is easy for inexperienced people to start with would be a good thing. It should include references to more detailed/advanced documentation and also mention the common pitfalls or things to look out for. Explaining in simplistic terms the basic organziation of the system seems to be the part that is most lacking. http://sourceForge.net/projects/newbiedoc/ I am in favor of creating a document that introduces the concept and organization of a Debian system with pointers to common situations and more advanced documentation. I think sprinkling it with funny stories of our own blunders will help show newbies what can go wrong, how to solve it, and that they aren't the only ones to mess up. we need you at newbiedoc. c'mon over! ATTN all newbies : feel free to post any questions to the list. I actually enjoy helping (when I can), but don't be a whiner when the system can't read your mind -- instead post all information you think is relevant and be polite. :-) any questions at all. someone will know just a bit more than you do, and be delighted that they can put that knowledge to work for someone else. (keeps them from having to sweep up loose hairs, too.) My opinion was that Unix was ancient and Windows far exceeded it. Shows how much I knew ;-). unix is ancient (not that there's anything wrong with that). at least you got that part right. I wrote this story in hopes that someone would enjoy reading it and get a good laugh at my initial perception of Unix (Solaris) and vi. I now consider (g)vim to be the most superior editor and use it for my daily work (I have tried emacs, and emacs fans are welcome to it wink). i think vim is abominable, deplorable and inconsiderate. it uses modes for this, modes for that... and i wouldn't ever consider using anything else. wanna write up a vim intro at sourceForge.net/projects/newbiedoc/? -- americans should never read anything so subversive as what's at http://www.salon.com/people/col/pagl/2001/03/21/spring/index1.html [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://sourceforge.net/projects/newbiedoc -- we need your brain! http://www.dontUthink.com/ -- your brain needs us!
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
On Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 10:02:34AM -0400, Kevin Stokes wrote:
I thank you and the others who have helped me, for friendly well-written
explanations. I have saved these messages in my Linux-help mail folder,
but I pity the next poor guy who just wants to login remotely to his newly
installed-linux. I have wasted hours of my time, and probably at least 40
minutes of yours
s/wasted/invested/
When i started on debian, i blithered regularly at this list,
appalled that anybody could possibly expect a bloke off the
street to know that 'grep' meant 'find files containing...' and
that 'vim' would 'edit text files'. you are not alone.
You're just the loud one at the moment. :)
I've spent DAYS banging my head against various obstacles here
and there, only to find out how simple the solution is, once i
know what to look for -- usually after someone here points me in
the right direction (after everyone rolls their eyes). Thing is,
after an investment of that magnitude, I UNDERSTAND FULLY the
situation and it never gets in my way again.
Once your sshd works (and it's complicated, much more than
telnetd) you'll probably be able to get it working on your next
install in a matter of minutes.
--
And then, you can write a newbiedoc about your experience,
covering likely gotchas and hurdles, to save the next poor soul
from a similar fate.
http://sourceForge.net/projects/newbiedoc/
--
quickie alternative that'll get me flamed in no time:
apt-get install xnietd telnetd
then munge /etc/xinetd.conf:
[snip]
service telnet
{
socket_type = stream
protocol= tcp
wait= no
user= telnetd
group = telnetd
server = /usr/sbin/in.telnetd
bind= 192.168.1.1
}
[snip]
and bind it to ONLY YOUR INTERNAL NETWORK INTERFACE. that should
be reasonably secure, but SSHD is ultimately a better deal, hands
down.
(and /etc/init.d/xinetd restart to see your changes.)
--
americans should never read anything so subversive as what's at
http://www.salon.com/people/col/pagl/2001/03/21/spring/index1.html
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://sourceforge.net/projects/newbiedoc -- we need your brain!
http://www.dontUthink.com/ -- your brain needs us!
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
PS - People take all their accumulated windows knowledge for granted. Years and years and years of it, and then expect that they can learn a new OS over night. Simply rediculous. This is absolutly true.. I personally have found a lot of computer newbies really lost with their brand new windoze boxes.. GNU/Linux at the long term is far easier than windows... you have much more resources and your skills are not wasted by new great versions in fact the Linux progress is much more about performance and bug-catching than changing the interface itself... (which always follows very stable standards.. posix, SVr4, etc).. But if you get use to install using wizards and telling ok to all then it is normal feeling quite lost.. The fact is that when people ask for friendly desktops they usually mean there is a lot of time since I am using windoze and I expect to find just that windoze. Surely linux is not for every user.. at least not to install/configure or maintain.. but I know some pretty examples about some networks installed using remote booting maintained by a sysadmin.. the users only have to know very little about KDE or GNOME/Enlightment they dont need to be root and they are quite happy.. you only need a sysadmin to maintain the whole network, to add a new workstation/desktop is a matter of seconds.. Maybe this is the way to go.. Regards Roberto Roberto Diaz [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://vivaldi.dhis.org Powered by GNU running on a Linux kernel. Powered by Debian (The real wonder) Concerto Grosso Op. 3/8 A minor Antonio Vivaldi (so... do you need beautiful words?)
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
On Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 07:44:52AM -0400, Kevin Stokes wrote: PS - People take all their accumulated windows knowledge for granted. Years and years and years of it, and then expect that they can learn a new OS over night. Simply rediculous. The truth is that I have *never* purchased or read a book on using the Windows operating system. I've never had to go online and look for DOC, with the exception of when Microsoft stuff crashes, in which case you can use their knowledge base. I had never even used the Windows Help system until my network didn't work. And then it was useful stuff. Their network stuff for 95/98 is a mess, and doesn't work right. But the help file was readable and gave you clear instructions on what you were supposed to do. knowledge [sic] base ? don't get me started. okay, too late -- ever try setting up a directory display in explorer using, say detail view (w95/98) and then try make all directory/folder windows look like this one? when you open another folder and it doesn't work, hop over to the ms knowledge[sic] base and search for that -- you'll be told this behavior is by design now THAT's clever documentation. Anyway, the purpose of my post was not to criticize Linux. The purpose was to point out to people that Linux could have a much brighter future than it does now. My point is for every page which is actually readable by a newbie, there are 100 pages of stuff which is incomprehensible to him. A zillion pages on how to do all kinds of exotic cool things, and hardly any organized info on how to get Linux running with a GUI so you can run a word-processor, internet browser, email, and and be able to get printouts. And those pages which *are* suitable for newbies are mixed in with all the expert stuff. you're right. part of the trouble is that fifteen hundred people, over the course of 30 years, wrote thousands of lines of code, and hundreds of documents... there is no top-down approach here; you can spend all year documenting KDE and then when someone chooses GNOME instead then you get an hour of flack for not documenting THAT, too. on the other hand, if you're volunteering to help provide some of that documentation we lack, c'mon over. we've been waiting for you. sourceforge.net/projects/newbiedoc/ (there's a related project mydebman there, but i've not heard of any activity on that front for quite some time.) -- americans should never read anything so subversive as what's at http://www.salon.com/people/col/pagl/2001/03/21/spring/index1.html [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://sourceforge.net/projects/newbiedoc -- we need your brain! http://www.dontUthink.com/ -- your brain needs us!
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
On Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 11:36:25AM -0400, Jaldhar H. Vyas wrote: On Wed, 11 Apr 2001, Kevin Stokes wrote: and have spent far to much time on postings about this anyway. I realize that my words aren't going to turn the lights on by themselves. But perhaps over time as more newbies vocalize their suprise at the lack of any offical information directed at their level, one of the devotees will decide to reapportion the Linux development effort a little. Not because they want to help the poor helpless newbies, but because by reapportioning the group effort, the group could come closer to accomplishing their goal. the effort that goes into linux -- and debian -- is from people who look a lot like that fella in the mirror (except taller, or shorter, and much better looking) who got fire in the belly and an interest in A) helping out or B) thundering down through the ages as a mystic sage who brought linux down from the mountain. Documentation requires nothing more than a basic command of English (or other languages let's not forget the international audience) and a willingness to write down what you did to solve a particular problem. As more people do that, it will get easier and easier for future newbies. and time. (i think this is kevin's objection.) here we get back to linux is free -- if your time is worth nothing :) The concept that seems to be eluding you is that YOU are as much a part of the group as Linus Torvalds himself. There is no coordinator or central body who says we're going to spend x amount of time on this or that. People who are involved in Linux do so either because it amuses them or to fulfill some need. You've identified a problem, do something about it! or do like i do -- whine at people for whining, then bully them into spending time writing a newbiedoc (gets them away from the list for a while, anyhow), and then take all the credit for their work. hmm? -- americans should never read anything so subversive as what's at http://www.salon.com/people/col/pagl/2001/03/21/spring/index1.html [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://sourceforge.net/projects/newbiedoc -- we need your brain! http://www.dontUthink.com/ -- your brain needs us!
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
On Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 07:44:52AM -0400, Kevin Stokes wrote: PS - People take all their accumulated windows knowledge for granted. Years and years and years of it, and then expect that they can learn a new OS over night. Simply rediculous. The truth is that I have *never* purchased or read a book on using the Windows operating system. I've never had to go online and look for DOC, with the exception of when Microsoft stuff crashes, in which case you can use their knowledge base. I had never even used the Windows Help system until my network didn't work. And then it was useful stuff. Their network stuff for 95/98 is a mess, and doesn't work right. But the help file was readable and gave you clear instructions on what you were supposed to do. Yeah. Reminds me of that quote: Windows NT server can be administered by a moron, and it usually is. Their help system is useful -- for morons. Their KB is marginally useful... but usually is not worth subscription price (or did you mean that part of it which is available off the webpage -- when that works and if you register for their spam? I'll let you in on a secret: that is not their whole knowledge base). The idea that a clueless moron can successfully operate something as complex as digital computer without prior training is apple-mickeysoft brainwash. You need to learn. A lot. I suggest you visit your local bookstore. Anyway, the purpose of my post was not to criticize Linux. The purpose was to point out to people that Linux could have a much brighter future than it does now. My point is for every page which is actually readable by a newbie, there are 100 pages of stuff which is incomprehensible to him. A zillion pages on how to do all kinds of exotic cool things, and hardly any organized info on how to get Linux running with a GUI so you can run a word-processor, internet browser, email, and and be able to get printouts. And those pages which *are* suitable for newbies are mixed in with all the expert stuff. That's not limited to Linux. In my uni they'd tell you about man but not about man -k -- you're supposed to do a man man and RTFM. So I like Linux itself, and am pretty soured on Windows. But in my opinion people who are devoted to Linux could improve the market share dramatically by spending less time coming up with new kernels and versions of everything, and more time looking at why people who try Linux turn away after a short experiment. Who TF cares about market share? Wake up man, not all of us live in the pipe dream of merkin marketdroids. My desktop is the only share of the market that I care about. YMMV, HTH, HAND Dima -- E-mail dmaziuk at bmrb dot wisc dot edu (@work) or at crosswinds dot net (@home) http://www.bmrb.wisc.edu/descript/gpgkey.dmaziuk.ascii -- GnuPG 1.0.4 public key The wombat is a mixture of chalk and clay used for respiration.-- MegaHal
Re: OT : RE: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
On Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 01:59:02PM -0500, will trillich wrote: | On Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 01:07:02PM -0400, D-Man wrote: | I think that an introduction that is easy for inexperienced people to | start with would be a good thing. It should include references to | more detailed/advanced documentation and also mention the common | pitfalls or things to look out for. Explaining in simplistic terms | the basic organziation of the system seems to be the part that is most | lacking. | | http://sourceForge.net/projects/newbiedoc/ I'll have to check this out. Most of my spare time right now is spent trying to get the network at home to work so the machines will share stuff. I have 2 Debian boxes (Duron 750 -- my workstation , 486 -- router for internet) and 2 Windoze boxes (PII 300 , Win98 ; 486 Win95 -- both my dad's, my brothers use for homework). | I wrote this story in hopes that someone would enjoy reading it and | get a good laugh at my initial perception of Unix (Solaris) and vi. I | now consider (g)vim to be the most superior editor and use it for my | daily work (I have tried emacs, and emacs fans are welcome to it | wink). | | i think vim is abominable, deplorable and inconsiderate. it uses | modes for this, modes for that... and i wouldn't ever consider | using anything else. Come to think of it, emacs has more modes that vim ;-). (python-mode c-mode this-mode that-mode) | wanna write up a vim intro at sourceForge.net/projects/newbiedoc/? I should. I've tried to introduce some of my friends to vim (CS students at school). They didn't have any (real) editor experience, and IMO CDE's notepad or Nedit don't really cut it for coding. I've just learned about ^N ^P and ctags over on Python-list. Really cool. Can I write it in LaTeX? I want to learn to use latex effectively. It will probably take me a while due to time constraints. OTOH I will be taking a trip soon and have lots of travel time I might be able to put to good use. If not, this summer when I am bored in class I should try and be useful ;-). -D
Re: OT : RE: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
On Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 04:18:08PM -0400, D-Man wrote: | On Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 01:59:02PM -0500, will trillich wrote: | | | wanna write up a vim intro at sourceForge.net/projects/newbiedoc/? | | Can I write it in LaTeX? I want to learn to use latex effectively. I just took a quick look, and I see that you like Docbook. Is there a latex2docbook utility around? Can docbook be rendered in Postscript or PDF? They are generally better for printing and off-line viewing (I mean, really offline, like no computer in hand). Even a single-page HTML is better than a whole bunch for printing. Also, are there any PS L2 - PS L1 translators? My laser printer at home is really old and only handles PS L1 (ie none of the PS docs on linuxdoc.org). Would anyone like to provide a comparison of LaTeX and Docbook? (without a flamewar of course). -D
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
imagine how much hair-pulling you'll save the next poor soul if you document what you learned... hmm? Ahh, but I'm not a Linux or Free-Software devotee. This is where you lose the sympathy of a lot of people. You've identified a problem and you want other people to spend their time and energy on it but you're not willing to spend any yourself. Will suggested an eminently sensible solution, you said you couldn't be bothered. There are people who care deeply about Linux and Free Software. I am not one of them. I wish Linux the best, but I'm not ready to invest hours of my time writing doc. You may think of me a selfish bastard, because I want to use Linux, but I don't want to help build it. My viewpoint is different. I thought the Free Software people didn't want payment, but now I'm supposed to have a guilt trip if I don't write doc? Or perhaps it is because I have a suggestion, that makes me a selfish bastard? I'm hardly suggesting newbie doc because I expect somebody to write it and give to me. By the time anybody had a decent Linux help system done, I would either be enough of an expert to not need it, or have dumped Linux a long time ago. As I said, I merely installed Linux on a resurrected computer that had been retired as a lark. I'm not a devotee. However, it really struck me that a crucial ingredient to Linux's success is missing. What I'm trying to do is be helpful. Kind of like saying, 'Hey, pal, I don't know if you noticed or not, but your boots are the wrong feet.' THe response might be. 'Shut up, you loser. I can wear my boots on my hands if I want to.', or the response might be, 'So that's why my boots haven't been that successful. They hurt my feet like crazy!'. In either case, I wouldn't help the man take of his boots and put them on the right way, and most men wouldn't want my help. Linux is painful for newbies, and there is no good reason for it. And this hurts the acceptance of Linux.Anyway, I will now shut up about it. Thanks again for all the time and energy you have spent helping me, and I hope I have not earned a reputation as a pariah who is stupid, lazy and selfish, since I will no doubt need more help... Kevin Stokes
Re: OT : RE: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
D-Man [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Would anyone like to provide a comparison of LaTeX and Docbook? (without a flamewar of course). LaTeX: * Been around longer * Stable, ie changes little over the years * Extremely easy to set up (significantly because of above) * Well documented if you like dead tree. * Trivial to output PDF (pdflatex, dvipdfm, ps2pdf) * Can be converted into HTML, but not always at optimal quality without some finagling. (latex2html, tth) * Physical and/or logical markup. * Easier to define your own markup (which is both good and bad) DocBook: * Newer * Changes more frequently than LaTeX * Less easy to get a working setup from scratch (but Debian packages are available and make it easy). * Fewer dead-tree resources, I think, but more online * Conversions to various formats available, including PDF (often through TeX), though translators are of varying quality * Easier to parse and make new translators * Logical markup only. That sums up the essential differences. Most projects choose DocBook for better translations to HTML and text. I normally use LaTeX for my stuff because I've been using it for years and DocBook doesn't seem well-suited to some of the things I do. (It may be fine, but I don't know enough about DocBook yet.) For things where I want control over formatting _and_ logical markup, LaTeX is good. -- Alan Shutko [EMAIL PROTECTED] - In a variety of flavors! Your temporary financial embarrassment will be relieved in a surprising manner.
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
On Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 05:00:24PM -0400, Kevin Stokes wrote: imagine how much hair-pulling you'll save the next poor soul if you document what you learned... hmm? Ahh, but I'm not a Linux or Free-Software devotee. This is where you lose the sympathy of a lot of people. You've identified a problem and you want other people to spend their time and energy on it but you're not willing to spend any yourself. Will suggested an eminently sensible solution, you said you couldn't be bothered. There are people who care deeply about Linux and Free Software. I am not one of them. I wish Linux the best, but I'm not ready to invest hours of my time writing doc. You may think of me a selfish bastard, because I want to use Linux, but I don't want to help build it. My viewpoint is different. I thought the Free Software people didn't want payment, but now I'm supposed to have a guilt trip if I don't write doc? Free Software is about freedom to use the software as you see fit, and has nothing to do with the cost of the software, monetary or otherwise. The fact that Free Software is often available for little to no monetary cost is happenstance; it's not a core value of Free Software. Use what allows you to get the most done. If that's Windows, fine. You say you want to use Linux ... why? If you're not willing to learn it seems pointless. -- Nathan Norman - Staff Engineer | A good plan today is better Micromuse Ltd. | than a perfect plan tomorrow. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | -- Patton pgpbMsXOSl86L.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
I have followed this discussion with great interest. It's been really lively! :-) I hardly consider myself to have achieved 'power user' status. I started with Slackware Linux in late 1998. At this time I never touch Windows and do not miss it. My initial reaction to what was -- I do not argue -- an avalanche of things-to-learn often *did* swing over to the totally overwhelmed and frustrated side of things; *however,* I did and still do feel that the *challenge* of overcoming the problems to the best of my abilities has been the most exciting and profitable learning experience I have ever enjoyed. I say this happily granting that it may not be for everyone. It especially may not be right if what you are doing is a Something that has to get done tomorrow. On the other hand, if what you're looking for is a new way to see and to use the box at your feet (or by your side, or ...) there is no better way to go that I know of ... it is truly transforming. This is not an apology for allusive, obfuscatory or even bad writing in docs. I've seen my share of that. But the soul of the experience (if I can use that crappy tattered word) is experiment: of trying things out and seeing what they do. I've not been nearly brave or smart enough, but my experience with various Linux-es, and especially Debian, has made me a much more effective do-er. Glenn Becker Online Producer, Community SCIFI.COM At 5:00pm on Wed, 11 Apr 2001, Kevin Stokes wrote: imagine how much hair-pulling you'll save the next poor soul if you document what you learned... hmm? Ahh, but I'm not a Linux or Free-Software devotee. This is where you lose the sympathy of a lot of people. You've identified a problem and you want other people to spend their time and energy on it but you're not willing to spend any yourself. Will suggested an eminently sensible solution, you said you couldn't be bothered. There are people who care deeply about Linux and Free Software. I am not one of them. I wish Linux the best, but I'm not ready to invest hours of my time writing doc. You may think of me a selfish bastard, because I want to use Linux, but I don't want to help build it. My viewpoint is different. I thought the Free Software people didn't want payment, but now I'm supposed to have a guilt trip if I don't write doc? Or perhaps it is because I have a suggestion, that makes me a selfish bastard? I'm hardly suggesting newbie doc because I expect somebody to write it and give to me. By the time anybody had a decent Linux help system done, I would either be enough of an expert to not need it, or have dumped Linux a long time ago. As I said, I merely installed Linux on a resurrected computer that had been retired as a lark. I'm not a devotee. However, it really struck me that a crucial ingredient to Linux's success is missing. What I'm trying to do is be helpful. Kind of like saying, 'Hey, pal, I don't know if you noticed or not, but your boots are the wrong feet.' THe response might be. 'Shut up, you loser. I can wear my boots on my hands if I want to.', or the response might be, 'So that's why my boots haven't been that successful. They hurt my feet like crazy!'. In either case, I wouldn't help the man take of his boots and put them on the right way, and most men wouldn't want my help. Linux is painful for newbies, and there is no good reason for it. And this hurts the acceptance of Linux.Anyway, I will now shut up about it. Thanks again for all the time and energy you have spent helping me, and I hope I have not earned a reputation as a pariah who is stupid, lazy and selfish, since I will no doubt need more help... Kevin Stokes -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
Hello Glenn and All, I just wanted to say Ditto, couldn't have said it better myself. I don't touch Windows at all anymore myself. It'd be way to boring for me now. I don't know what I'd do without all the exciting, fun,(and to me, important) concepts that I have learned by using Linux. I was thrilled to see an OS appear that is actually opened up the doors and not only allows you to see and tweak what's going on behind the scenes(with the exception of some proprietary software, such as my own NVidia graphics card driver) but encourages it. But yeah... there's a lot to be learned. So it may not be for everyone. But to me if you really want to learn what all a computer can do and how it does it, Linux is the best. Ditto Glenn's post here!, Jimmy Richards On Wednesday 11 April 2001 15:46, Glenn Becker wrote: I have followed this discussion with great interest. It's been really lively! :-) I hardly consider myself to have achieved 'power user' status. I started with Slackware Linux in late 1998. At this time I never touch Windows and do not miss it. My initial reaction to what was -- I do not argue -- an avalanche of things-to-learn often *did* swing over to the totally overwhelmed and frustrated side of things; *however,* I did and still do feel that the *challenge* of overcoming the problems to the best of my abilities has been the most exciting and profitable learning experience I have ever enjoyed. I say this happily granting that it may not be for everyone. It especially may not be right if what you are doing is a Something that has to get done tomorrow. On the other hand, if what you're looking for is a new way to see and to use the box at your feet (or by your side, or ...) there is no better way to go that I know of ... it is truly transforming. This is not an apology for allusive, obfuscatory or even bad writing in docs. I've seen my share of that. But the soul of the experience (if I can use that crappy tattered word) is experiment: of trying things out and seeing what they do. I've not been nearly brave or smart enough, but my experience with various Linux-es, and especially Debian, has made me a much more effective do-er. Glenn Becker Online Producer, Community SCIFI.COM At 5:00pm on Wed, 11 Apr 2001, Kevin Stokes wrote: imagine how much hair-pulling you'll save the next poor soul if you document what you learned... hmm? Ahh, but I'm not a Linux or Free-Software devotee. This is where you lose the sympathy of a lot of people. You've identified a problem and you want other people to spend their time and energy on it but you're not willing to spend any yourself. Will suggested an eminently sensible solution, you said you couldn't be bothered. There are people who care deeply about Linux and Free Software. I am not one of them. I wish Linux the best, but I'm not ready to invest hours of my time writing doc. You may think of me a selfish bastard, because I want to use Linux, but I don't want to help build it. My viewpoint is different. I thought the Free Software people didn't want payment, but now I'm supposed to have a guilt trip if I don't write doc? Or perhaps it is because I have a suggestion, that makes me a selfish bastard? I'm hardly suggesting newbie doc because I expect somebody to write it and give to me. By the time anybody had a decent Linux help system done, I would either be enough of an expert to not need it, or have dumped Linux a long time ago. As I said, I merely installed Linux on a resurrected computer that had been retired as a lark. I'm not a devotee. However, it really struck me that a crucial ingredient to Linux's success is missing. What I'm trying to do is be helpful. Kind of like saying, 'Hey, pal, I don't know if you noticed or not, but your boots are the wrong feet.' THe response might be. 'Shut up, you loser. I can wear my boots on my hands if I want to.', or the response might be, 'So that's why my boots haven't been that successful. They hurt my feet like crazy!'. In either case, I wouldn't help the man take of his boots and put them on the right way, and most men wouldn't want my help. Linux is painful for newbies, and there is no good reason for it. And this hurts the acceptance of Linux.Anyway, I will now shut up about it. Thanks again for all the time and energy you have spent helping me, and I hope I have not earned a reputation as a pariah who is stupid, lazy and selfish, since I will no doubt need more help... Kevin Stokes -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
Kevin Stokes writes: There are people who care deeply about Linux and Free Software. I am not one of them. Then why should those people care about you? I wish Linux the best, but I'm not ready to invest hours of my time writing doc. Then invest your money. There are plenty of consultants around. I thought the Free Software people didn't want payment,... Where did you get that idea? We let you use our software without payment because it costs us nothing to do so. Answering your questions and helping you solve your individual problems, on the other hand, costs us some of our time. You can pay us back in either time (i.e., writing that doc) or money (i.e., hire one of us as a consultant). However, it really struck me that a crucial ingredient to Linux's success is missing. That's a matter of opinion. Not everyone values market share. Linux is painful for newbies, and there is no good reason for it. THis has been said before, many times. Some people care, and are working on it. Some don't care. I will no doubt need more help... Unless you are prepared to either return the favor or pay consulting fees, you will only get it on a whim. Fortunately for you, many people have such whims. -- John Hasler [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dancing Horse Hill Elmwood, Wisconsin
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
on Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 05:46:05PM -0400, Glenn Becker ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: I have followed this discussion with great interest. It's been really lively! :-) Yathink? But the soul of the experience (if I can use that crappy tattered word) is experiment: of trying things out and seeing what they do. Bing-fucking-o. You just nailed it in one sentence, Glenn. -- Karsten M. Self kmself@ix.netcom.comhttp://kmself.home.netcom.com/ What part of Gestalt don't you understand? There is no K5 cabal http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/ http://www.kuro5hin.org pgp9JkzbtlQbt.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
On Wednesday 11 April 2001 16:06, Ethan Benson wrote: On Tue, Apr 10, 2001 at 10:52:54PM -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote: now MacOS X, which is housetrained Unix, [...] thats not what i would call it. i would call it a neutered Unix thats been run over by a truck. Strong words. What makes you say that? Just curious.
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
On Thu, Apr 12, 2001 at 07:23:06AM +0800, csj wrote: On Wednesday 11 April 2001 16:06, Ethan Benson wrote: On Tue, Apr 10, 2001 at 10:52:54PM -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote: now MacOS X, which is housetrained Unix, [...] thats not what i would call it. i would call it a neutered Unix thats been run over by a truck. Strong words. What makes you say that? Just curious. i tried the beta and looked at the final. if you want a *nix system OSX isn't it. basically don't beleive all the rubbish on slashdot where everyone thinks OSX is just FreeBSD + better GUI on a powerpc. its not. the unix layer is crippled and broken, and the GUI isn't any better then gnome or KDE IMO. (it may have better eye candy but thats different) -- Ethan Benson http://www.alaska.net/~erbenson/ pgphBwvm4PDzq.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
On Wed, Apr 11, 2001 at 05:46:05PM -0400, Glenn Becker wrote: I have followed this discussion with great interest. It's been really lively! :-) I hardly consider myself to have achieved 'power user' status. I started with Slackware Linux in late 1998. At this time I never touch Windows and do not miss it. My initial reaction to what was -- I do not argue -- an avalanche of things-to-learn often *did* swing over to the totally overwhelmed and frustrated side of things; *however,* I did and still do feel that the *challenge* of overcoming the problems to the best of my abilities has been the most exciting and profitable learning experience I have ever enjoyed. I say this happily granting that it may not be for everyone. It especially may not be right if what you are doing is a Something that has to get done tomorrow. On the other hand, if what you're looking for is a new way to see and to use the box at your feet (or by your side, or ...) there is no better way to go that I know of ... it is truly transforming. This is not an apology for allusive, obfuscatory or even bad writing in docs. I've seen my share of that. But the soul of the experience (if I can use that crappy tattered word) is experiment: of trying things out and seeing what they do. I've not been nearly brave or smart enough, but my experience with various Linux-es, and especially Debian, has made me a much more effective do-er. Glenn Becker okay. you're another candidate for newbiedoc-membership. http://sourceforge.net/projects/newbiedoc/ pick a topic that bugged you, and expose the basics for tomorrow's newbie. (like me.) we need all the help we can get! -- americans should never read anything so subversive as what's at http://www.salon.com/people/col/pagl/2001/03/21/spring/index1.html [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://sourceforge.net/projects/newbiedoc -- we need your brain! http://www.dontUthink.com/ -- your brain needs us!
water, water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.
Once again I find myself helpless. As unreliable and as frustrating as Windows is, in Linux it seems like you can't do anything without asking for help. I wanted to remotely login from a Windows machine to my linux machine. So I wanted to install telnetd. Everyone said, 'shame on you, telnet is simply awful. You should be chained to the wall and whipped for wanting to use telnet! Use 'ssh' instead.' Well, ssh got installed along with everything when I installed linux. So I read the man pages for ssh. As is typical of the linux world, it is about 15 pages of utter gobbedly-gook. To be fair, man pages are not meant for newbies to learn linux from scratch. So I search until I find a HOWTO on ssh. This would be nice if it worked, but of course it doesn't. Everything seems to be different. Their suggestions fail. The paths are different. http://www.linuxdoc.org/LDP/LG/issue61/dellomodarme.html Now I can explain the title of my post. Linux is amazing. There is source code, and binaries and gigabytes of documentation about everything under the sun. All free! But it all seems nearly useless. Take a newbie, and drop him into the sea of freebies. And he drowns. You start searching archives and HOWTO's. Each thing you find leads you in 10 different directions; 10 more places to look for answers. Only each of those ten leads simply bring up 10 more questions and strange things you never heard of.It seems like there is a infinite sea of little config files, and nested /etc directories, and devices and weird little two-letter commands.And for each of these, there are man pages with 20 options, and completely obscure text which makes no sense unless you already know everything. Take the last time I needed help. A generous and helpful person told me to do the following: update-rc.d -n -f xdm remove Why the hell didn't I think of doing that? What does that command do? I don't know. It worked just like the helpful guy said it would. But I have no clue what it did, and what those 8 files that it deleted or modified were. In my opinion, Linux is a truly great and remarkable thing. And I get the impression than many Linux enthusiasts want Linux to become the dominant OS. However, I think that no matter how great the software is, the #1 problem is that Linux is a nightmare for anybody who doesn't know it already. This is not true of Windows, or even DOS. Linux is chasing away the very people it needs. You can tell this from the tone of most newbie posts. They are embarrassed to have to ask these questions. They (read me) have a tough time asking a question which uses terminology correctly, or even coming up a question that makes sense. There is something that Linux needs much more than anything else, and that is a decent help system. We need something about 50 times larger than the man pages. Something which always has an extensive chapter in simple layman language, and lots of examples with clear steps with *explanations*. And also a way to get to the more typically man page type stuff for the people who need that. Who is willing to create such a thing? Not me, I'm not a Linux devotee. But people have put so much effort into building the OS itself, and writing doc. But the bottom line is that the Windows Help system totally blows away all the confusing HOWTO's, man pages, or archived email searches. I'm sure the Linux community could come up with something which beats the Windows Help by a long shot, if they ever decide to get serious about making progress. For those who read this list and have put in 100's of hours working on Linux for free for whatever reason: How many people do you suppose have installed Redhat, Debian or Suse, and tried for a week or so, and then deleted it in frustration? Did they remove it because they are weak-minded, or were they programmed by Bill Gates to hate the penguin? No, it was because they couldn't figure out anything without being bombarded with 100 other things they didn't know Anyway, I detest Windows because it crashes every day. I detest Windows because there is no useful support. (If you call them they charge $40 and their solution is to reinstall Windows) I detest Windows because they have such a freaking attitude that when their OS crashes, they give you message that you need to contect 'The Vendor', as if a crash could never be their fault. I detest Windows because to install anything you have to reboot 100 times, and sometimes it becames so messed up you have reinstall the whole OS.I detest Windows because they make you buy a new version every two years and it is never any better. In summation, I detest Windows because I have to use it, and it is low quality software. So I have all these reasons to detest Windows. What keeps me and zillions of others like me from jumping into Linux? Because we quickly drown. Anyway... Does anybody know what steps I
