Re: why so much hate?
Wayne Topa wrote: Subject: Re: why so much hate? Date: Mon, Jul 19, 1999 at 02:39:08PM -0500 In reply to:John Foster Quoting John Foster([EMAIL PROTECTED]): Wayne Topa wrote: I didn't write that! I answered it but damm well didn't say that! Wayne _ I know you didn't. I was just putting in my .02 cents worth on the thread. I'm sorry if it appeares that my reply was aimed at you. It most certainly was not. I also apologize for the apology being so late :-( we have had NO phone service in the entire city of Plano,Tx since 10:25 this morning. -- John Foster AdVance-Computing Systems [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ# 19460173 -- John Foster AdVance-Computing Systems [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ# 19460173
Re: why so much hate?
* Keith G Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [dselect annoyances] Also, while we're bitching, could we have the search give some kind of feedback to where we know when it did or didn't find something and we can go on? I never know when it's finished... Yeah, and \ cycles silently around until you notice it--which can take quite a long time sometimes :-) Colin -- Colin Marquardt [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why so much hate?
Michael == Michael Merten [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michael I really have to step in here. The 'intuitive' argument is Michael habitually used to argue against *any* software that doesn't Michael conform in every way to the expectation of whoever is trying Michael to use it. Yes, and the problem is, that it doesn't even conform to some basic controls *nix applications usually use. Return to exit the package selection? I have fumbled too often on this. d/u to scroll the package description? Are you able to directly set the ordering with o/O without pressing the keys alternatly until it looks halfways like you want it too? Yesterday, I tried to sort on section, priority. I have up after five minutes. Also some things are really missing. Searching the descriptions is one thing. This is all well known, and the problem is, that noone dares to touch the dselect code. I certainly don't, as I don't speak C. apt is suppose to have a curses based frontend as well, so maybe there is hope :-) A clean new implementaion seems to be the best way. Just like the project to reimplement/enhance dpkg looks like the better way to deal with the record-breaking bug-xount on dpkg. Dselect is for sure not what makes Debian shining. Ciao, Martin
Re: why so much hate?
Subject: Re: why so much hate? Date: Mon, Jul 19, 1999 at 02:39:08PM -0500 In reply to:John Foster Quoting John Foster([EMAIL PROTECTED]): Wayne Topa wrote: I didn't write that! I answered it but damm well didn't say that! Wayne Subject: why so much hate? Date: Sun, Jul 18, 1999 at 10:09:40AM -0400 In reply to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]([EMAIL PROTECTED]): hi. from Altag. I can't figure out why Dselect package ,loving debian so strong, is so antiquate and really unfriendly. from debian-developers really nothing better? I have been using Linux off and on since 1992. You should have been around when there was no dselect or even Debian for that matter, it was really a hackers world then. I too disliked dselect when I first started using it. Over the years it has shown marked improvement, contrary to what many new users think. I have come to realize that the developers were/are very wise about what dselect must do and how to perform that task best. It MUST be able to function on a minimal system from a consol, that may not be properly supported by the initial installation when first installed. It MUST perform with the DETECTED available hardware, when first installed, i.e it finds the drives and cdroms etc. It does this correctly even though YOU do not even know what they are called or how to mount them. I provides ALL the instructions to operate it properly when it first starts. You DO have to READ them, ALL of them. It provides all the necessary features to completely install a working Operating System and to correct any screw ups YOU make. If you punch the enter key after you already see that you have a problem, it is not THEIR fault, it's YOURS. In fact the the only suggestion that I would make is that they might put the Exit sequence from dselect to it's menu, on the VERY FIRST page. The problem with most useres, newbies , is that they are coming from a situation where they were not required to think before doing something. That is not the case with ANY Unix or Unix clone. In short I think that until the hardware itself becomes selfaware (scary thought) we will have to do the best with what works well and think for ourselves. This is not a rant at newbies. These are the real facts. I still learn something EVERY day, and have problems, mostly of my own doing. But my system has not CRASHED in 3 years while running Linux, but about every other week when running Windows. Best Wishes! -- John Foster AdVance-Computing Systems [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ# 19460173 -- Unsubscribe? mail -s unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED] /dev/null -- Linux represents a best-of-breed UNIX, that is trusted in mission critical applications, and - due to it's open source code - has a long term credibility which exceeds many other competitive OS's. - Microsoft internal memo - http://www.opensource.org/halloween2.html ___ Wayne T. Topa [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why so much hate?
Jason Carley saieth: Sure there is room here for opinion. Mine however, as a new user of debian, is that dselect can be improved. It is not a slight on the fabric of debian merely an observation. Having just ben through the process of installation, I feel I can comment with some recency. There is a lot of room for opinion. Many people feel there are serious problems with dselects interface. People thought that when I was first getting involved with Debian about 4 years ago. And most developers accept that those problems and criticisms have merit. This discussion unfortunately goes around in circles -- A new user, such as yourself, starts using Debian, and raises valid complaints about dselect's performance -- unaware that the issue is -very- old (bug #1037, titled dselect user interface (was Re: debian 0.95pl5 installation) was filed 24 June 1995, and is still open), has been discussed to death, and informing us of them isn't going to help. Old timers reply by effectively saying Deal with it, or even claiming that it's good that it's so complicated. The new users (more than one now) claim that this is the wrong attitude to have, and that the problems shouldn't be ignored, etc. After a while, it boils down to Shut up and code. The trouble is that no one has gone out and corrected those problems. And very likely, for a variety of reasons, no one ever will. The new users who have shut up and coded have looked at the code for dselect, and have decided not to bother dealing with it. The old timers would prefer to deal with something new (like apt or DPKGv2) rather than deal with dselect. The code is some of the oldest for the project, and has not had any major user interface changes in most of that time. It has a reputation of being very fragile -- it will break if modified -- and hard to work with. So most people realise that until something better comes around, we are stuck with it. Shut up and code, followed by inactivity, isn't the only result of the never-ending dselect interface debates. Some people have chosen instead to work on dselect replacements -- replacements that don't suffer from the maintainability problems that dselect has. The main interface being worked on right now is apt. Currently, gnome-apt is a decent, working packaging interface. In my opinion, it does not quite replace dselect (mainly because I can't easily tell which packages are new), but when it is done, it'll be a very good system. Apt is also used as a back-end interface for dselect -- and here, it is superb. the apt dselect method is a vast improvement in speed, flexibility, and reliability over the older dselect methods. I am sure you are very experienced with debian and can thus use almost all of its tools better than I can. But there are areas where dselect can be difficult to follow and somewhat dangerous to use if you are not totally familiar with it. I guess it is an appropriate proving ground, a test if you will. But is that really the point of a package management application? No, it isn't appropriate for a package management system to be a test, to make sure that only skilled or dedicated people install and use the system. That isn't its intent, however good it may be at it. And yes, there are dangerous, poorly documented areas of dselect. I still remember the first time I installed Debian -- there were several packages I wanted to get rid of after the default install, so I went into the select option, cleared all my selections, chose the few packages I wanted to remove, fought my way past the dependency screen, and proceeded to [R]emove almost my entire system. Shortly thereafter, I installed Debian for the second time ;-). But until someone writes something better, or fixes dselect, it's what we have. -- Buddha Buck [EMAIL PROTECTED] Just as the strength of the Internet is chaos, so the strength of our liberty depends upon the chaos and cacaphony of the unfettered speech the First Amendment protects. -- A.L.A. v. U.S. Dept. of Justice
Re: why so much hate?
On 19-Jul-99, you wrote: Hello, I'm so new to debian that I haven't been able to install it successfully yet (probs with a SCSI card on an A1200) and haven't yet even thought about dselect, but I've enough computing experience (25 yrs) to have a view. I'm not sure if 'intuitive' is the right word - logical might be better and I see no reason why software shouldn't be logical to use. It's not as though we're talking bagpipes here, where by definition, the nature of the instrument requires an awkward interface. With software, we should be able to have pretty much any interface we like, tailorable with regard to different levels of reporting verbosity, warning and interlocking. If the requirement that is met by dselect absolutly requires it's current interface (whatever it's like), then the requirement needs to be re-appraised. Of course, once I've sorted out the installation problem, got d running and have had a look at dselect, I'll probably change my mind ;-) LeeE Michael Merten wrote: On Mon, Jul 19, 1999 at 04:31:16PM +1000, Carley, Jason (Australia) wrote: I think that is a little harsh. I totally agree that everyone should read the docs. However, that does not create an excuse for unintuitive interface design. An app that is designed to cover new as well as experienced users I really have to step in here. The 'intuitive' argument is habitually used to argue against *any* software that doesn't conform in every way to the expectation of whoever is trying to use it. There is no 'intuitive interface' and users expectations vary greatly depending on their background. A wise man once sayeth: Sure there is room here for opinion. Mine however, as a new user of debian, is that dselect can be improved. It is not a slight on the fabric of debian merely an observation. Having just ben through the process of installation, I feel I can comment with some recency. I am sure you are very experienced with debian and can thus use almost all of its tools better than I can. But there are areas where dselect can be difficult to follow and somewhat dangerous to use if you are not totally familiar with it. I guess it is an appropriate proving ground, a test if you will. But is that really the point of a package management application? Why not have a novice mode in dselect? That way any expert user can plug away with the current format. new users could have more handholding? The only intuitive interface is the nipple. After that, it's all learned. -- Bruce Ediger, [EMAIL PROTECTED], on X interfaces I don't know that that quote adds much... I reality we have all seen bad interfaces and good interfaces. In general I think that a good interface should enable a technical person to sit down without a lot of prior training and work their way through the application. Not perfectly but safely and in such a way that some work can be accomplished. As I said in an earlier post, for a tool that comes up in the initial installation phase, I think this is even more important. Some users are coming across from Windows and need all the help they can get with the install lest they fail to appreciate the usefulness of Linux because they can't get it installed. Regards, Jason. Regards -- http://www.spatial.freeserve.co.uk
Re: why so much hate?
On Mon, Jul 19, 1999 at 10:53:02PM +0100, Mark Brown wrote: usage summary. Anything else I thought of seemed to be loosing functionality. and we can't have stray functionality running about unchecked... sorry... -- Michael Stenner Office Phone: 919-660-2513 Duke University, Dept. of Physics [EMAIL PROTECTED] Box 90305, Durham N.C. 27708-0305
Re: why so much hate?
Buddha == Buddha Buck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Buddha interface being worked on right now is apt. Currently, Buddha gnome-apt is a decent, working packaging interface. In my Buddha opinion, it does not quite replace dselect (mainly because I Buddha can't easily tell which packages are new), but when it is Buddha done, it'll be a very good system. I take this oportunity to plug the gnome-apt homepage at http://www.debian.org/~hp/gnome-apt.html There is some stuff that doesn't need any coding skills like translations, graphic artworks (logo, icons) and documentation. The homepage lists this todo items, so pick some. The more help there is, the earlier gnome-apt will be finished. Ciao, Martin
Re: why so much hate?
Martin Bialasinski wrote: Michael == Michael Merten [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michael I really have to step in here. The 'intuitive' argument is Michael habitually used to argue against *any* software that doesn't Michael conform in every way to the expectation of whoever is trying Michael to use it. Yes, and the problem is, that it doesn't even conform to some basic controls *nix applications usually use. Return to exit the package selection? I have fumbled too often on this. d/u to scroll the package description? Are you able to directly set the ordering with o/O without pressing the keys alternatly until it looks halfways like you want it too? Yesterday, I tried to sort on section, priority. I have up after five minutes. Also some things are really missing. Searching the descriptions is one thing. Also, while we're bitching, could we have the search give some kind of feedback to where we know when it did or didn't find something and we can go on? I never know when it's finished...
Re: why so much hate?
Perhaps dselect is best seen as a tool for advanced managers and something a little easier found for proplr who are new ti Linux and trying a first installation. Or is Debian aimed at those house-trained bt Caldera, Red Hat and SuSE? Patrick
Re: why so much hate?
Sorry about appalling spelling in my previous post.
Re: why so much hate?
I'm inclined to believe that apt-get (and in fact most of the apt tools) are useful mainly script writers, and those trained on Red Hat. One of the reasons I still only show linux newbies how to use dselect, is that it is simply a matter of browsing the appropriate section or / searching for part of a package name, to find the appropriate package for installation or removal. If dselect was modified, so that / or a similar command would search package descriptions (preferably with a regexp), I don't think I'd be able to leave the house. jeff On Mon, Jul 19, 1999 at 08:41:10AM +0100, Patrick Kirk wrote: Perhaps dselect is best seen as a tool for advanced managers and something a little easier found for proplr who are new ti Linux and trying a first installation. Or is Debian aimed at those house-trained bt Caldera, Red Hat and SuSE? Patrick
Re: why so much hate?
On Mon, Jul 19, 1999 at 04:31:16PM +1000, Carley, Jason (Australia) wrote: I think that is a little harsh. I totally agree that everyone should read the docs. However, that does not create an excuse for unintuitive interface design. An app that is designed to cover new as well as experienced users I really have to step in here. The 'intuitive' argument is habitually used to argue against *any* software that doesn't conform in every way to the expectation of whoever is trying to use it. There is no 'intuitive interface' and users expectations vary greatly depending on their background. A wise man once sayeth: The only intuitive interface is the nipple. After that, it's all learned. -- Bruce Ediger, [EMAIL PROTECTED], on X interfaces There is only one keystroke that the dselect user (beginner or advanced) needs to remember, and that's the '?'. Everything else follows from there. (sorry for the rant, but this is getting kinda old) Mike [Private mail welcome, but no need to CC: me on list replies.] -- Michael Merten -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- NRA Life Member -- http://www.nra.org --- Debian GNU/Linux Fan -- http://www.debian.org --- CenLA-LUG Founder -- http://www.angelfire.com/la2/cenlalug -- But I don't want to go on the cart... Oh, don't be such a baby! But I'm feeling much better... No you're not... in a moment you'll be stone dead! -- Monty Python, The Holy Grail
Re: why so much hate?
Michael Merten wrote: On Mon, Jul 19, 1999 at 04:31:16PM +1000, Carley, Jason (Australia) wrote: I think that is a little harsh. I totally agree that everyone should read the docs. However, that does not create an excuse for unintuitive interface design. An app that is designed to cover new as well as experienced users I really have to step in here. The 'intuitive' argument is habitually used to argue against *any* software that doesn't conform in every way to the expectation of whoever is trying to use it. There is no 'intuitive interface' and users expectations vary greatly depending on their background. A wise man once sayeth: Sure there is room here for opinion. Mine however, as a new user of debian, is that dselect can be improved. It is not a slight on the fabric of debian merely an observation. Having just ben through the process of installation, I feel I can comment with some recency. I am sure you are very experienced with debian and can thus use almost all of its tools better than I can. But there are areas where dselect can be difficult to follow and somewhat dangerous to use if you are not totally familiar with it. I guess it is an appropriate proving ground, a test if you will. But is that really the point of a package management application? Why not have a novice mode in dselect? That way any expert user can plug away with the current format. new users could have more handholding? The only intuitive interface is the nipple. After that, it's all learned. -- Bruce Ediger, [EMAIL PROTECTED], on X interfaces I don't know that that quote adds much... I reality we have all seen bad interfaces and good interfaces. In general I think that a good interface should enable a technical person to sit down without a lot of prior training and work their way through the application. Not perfectly but safely and in such a way that some work can be accomplished. As I said in an earlier post, for a tool that comes up in the initial installation phase, I think this is even more important. Some users are coming across from Windows and need all the help they can get with the install lest they fail to appreciate the usefulness of Linux because they can't get it installed. Regards, Jason.
Re: why so much hate?
Subject: why so much hate? Date: Sun, Jul 18, 1999 at 10:09:40AM -0400 In reply to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]([EMAIL PROTECTED]): hi. from Altag. I can't figure out why Dselect package ,loving debian so strong, is so antiquate and really unfriendly. from debian-developers really nothing better? Alex Those that can program Those that can't complain As this was written by unpaid volunteers who have other lives as well. I, personally, would like to thank these volunteers for their efforts. The program works. It doesn't please everyone. It is better IMHO then the tools I used in RedHat, Caldara, SuSe and Slackware (Ha). When I am able to supply code to improve the current program, and it isn't incorporated into deselect, then and only then, I 'might' have a right to complain. -- These settings will have no effect until you restart the system. Reset Universe (Y/N) ? ___ Wayne T. Topa [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why so much hate?
On Mon, Jul 19, 1999 at 11:32:04PM +1000, Jason Carley wrote: Michael Merten wrote: On Mon, Jul 19, 1999 at 04:31:16PM +1000, Carley, Jason (Australia) wrote: I think that is a little harsh. I totally agree that everyone should read the docs. However, that does not create an excuse for unintuitive interface design. An app that is designed to cover new as well as experienced users I really have to step in here. The 'intuitive' argument is habitually used to argue against *any* software that doesn't conform in every way to the expectation of whoever is trying to use it. There is no 'intuitive interface' and users expectations vary greatly depending on their background. A wise man once sayeth: Sure there is room here for opinion. Mine however, as a new user of debian, is that dselect can be improved. It is not a slight on the fabric of debian merely an observation. Having just ben through the process of installation, I feel I can comment with some recency. First off, I didn't intend my comment to be construed as a slight on you. People have been arguing the 'intuitiveness' of this or that for as long as I've been subscribed to these lists. I just happened to be reading *your* message when I felt the need to reply. :) Second, I didn't try to imply that dselect couldn't be improved. I merely object to the *idea* that any program can be designed in such a way that people totally unfamiliar with it can jump right in use it like they were born to it (which is what 'intuitive' implies). I am sure you are very experienced with debian and can thus use almost all of its tools better than I can. But there are areas where dselect can be difficult to follow and somewhat dangerous to use if you are not totally familiar with it. I guess it is an appropriate proving ground, a test if you will. But is that really the point of a package management application? Not knowing you personally, I wouldn't be inclined to make any assumptions based on our comparative abilities. I agree that dselect can be dangerous for the unwary, but you have to consider its purpose. It's designed to modify the very fabric of your operating system. I put it to you that any program (including apt) with these capabilities is inherently dangerous and should be approached with caution. Having said that, I would have to agree that it is rather easy to unknowingly make changes in package selections, if you don't know what to watch out for. However, I'm not sure what could be done about it. The real problem, as I see it, is that there is only so much you can readably display in 80x25 characters. Perhaps something simple could be done to make your changes stand out, like making the status indicators blink for each package that was modified during the session. Why not have a novice mode in dselect? That way any expert user can plug away with the current format. new users could have more handholding? The only intuitive interface is the nipple. After that, it's all learned. -- Bruce Ediger, [EMAIL PROTECTED], on X interfaces I don't know that that quote adds much... I reality we have all seen bad interfaces and good interfaces. In general I think that a good interface should enable a technical person to sit down without a lot of prior training and work their way through the application. Not perfectly but safely and in such a way that some work Sure, good interfaces and bad interfaces. But the point of my original posting was simply that good or bad, none of them are intuitive. Also, whether they are good or bad for you depends largely on your own personal background and experiences. Dselect provides you with all the information you need; you just have to pay close attention to what it tells you. Mike [Private mail welcome, but no need to CC: me on list replies.] -- Michael Merten -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- NRA Life Member -- http://www.nra.org --- Debian GNU/Linux Fan -- http://www.debian.org --- CenLA-LUG Founder -- http://www.angelfire.com/la2/cenlalug -- Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a diseased mind. -- Rincewind (from _Eric_)
Re: why so much hate?
Wayne Topa wrote: Subject: why so much hate? Date: Sun, Jul 18, 1999 at 10:09:40AM -0400 In reply to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]([EMAIL PROTECTED]): hi. from Altag. I can't figure out why Dselect package ,loving debian so strong, is so antiquate and really unfriendly. from debian-developers really nothing better? I have been using Linux off and on since 1992. You should have been around when there was no dselect or even Debian for that matter, it was really a hackers world then. I too disliked dselect when I first started using it. Over the years it has shown marked improvement, contrary to what many new users think. I have come to realize that the developers were/are very wise about what dselect must do and how to perform that task best. It MUST be able to function on a minimal system from a consol, that may not be properly supported by the initial installation when first installed. It MUST perform with the DETECTED available hardware, when first installed, i.e it finds the drives and cdroms etc. It does this correctly even though YOU do not even know what they are called or how to mount them. I provides ALL the instructions to operate it properly when it first starts. You DO have to READ them, ALL of them. It provides all the necessary features to completely install a working Operating System and to correct any screw ups YOU make. If you punch the enter key after you already see that you have a problem, it is not THEIR fault, it's YOURS. In fact the the only suggestion that I would make is that they might put the Exit sequence from dselect to it's menu, on the VERY FIRST page. The problem with most useres, newbies , is that they are coming from a situation where they were not required to think before doing something. That is not the case with ANY Unix or Unix clone. In short I think that until the hardware itself becomes selfaware (scary thought) we will have to do the best with what works well and think for ourselves. This is not a rant at newbies. These are the real facts. I still learn something EVERY day, and have problems, mostly of my own doing. But my system has not CRASHED in 3 years while running Linux, but about every other week when running Windows. Best Wishes! -- John Foster AdVance-Computing Systems [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ# 19460173
Re: why so much hate?
John Foster wrote: snip . But my system has not CRASHED in 3 years while running Linux, but about every other week when running Windows. Best Wishes! snip Every other week? You're lucky, try every other day, when I uesed it. Although thats 98, NT might be every other week. -Aaron Solochek [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: why so much hate?
On Mon, Jul 19, 1999 at 11:32:04PM +1000, Jason Carley wrote: Why not have a novice mode in dselect? That way any expert user can plug away with the current format. new users could have more handholding? What would you add? The only idea I could think of was allowing the bottom half of the screen (package details currently) to display a quick usage summary. Anything else I thought of seemed to be loosing functionality. -- Mark Brown mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Trying to avoid grumpiness) http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~broonie/ EUFShttp://www.eusa.ed.ac.uk/societies/filmsoc/ pgpz1K5Ma1Egy.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: why so much hate?
From: Bryan Scaringe [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... [dselet] must be able to run on ANY debian system, including 386 -class machines with black-and-white terminals and no X Windows. ... I haven't used [the GTK front-end] myself, so I can't really say if it's any more user-friendly. Being a text-mode program is NOT deselect's problem with not being user-friendly. Daniel
Re: why so much hate?
On Sun, Jul 18, 1999 at 10:44:28PM -0700, George Bonser wrote: Right, it is not having a clearly marked button that drives many of today's users into fits. They did not read the docs so they do not know that R means Revert if they get thrown into conflict resolution and a bunch of packages get marked for removal and that Q will take them back to where they were in the selection menu without rechecking for conflicts. Basicly it is a program that you must read ALL of the instructions for before using and it and it expects you to have done so. It is NOT a program you can figure out as you go along. True true true, but I can't help but still feel that the dselect interface is pretty bad. It's like trying to use info--an emacs-ish program that doesn't follow the emacs keystroke conventions very well. Info could be as simple as lynx, but certainly isn't. Something so vital to the system as dselect shouldn't need to be so cryptic. A system can get really screwed up by a few inadvertent keys. I think a lot of dselect is great, but too much of it is counter-intuitive. Just an opinion, though. Robbie
RE: why so much hate?
I think that is a little harsh. I totally agree that everyone should read the docs. However, that does not create an excuse for unintuitive interface design. An app that is designed to cover new as well as experienced users should possess some form of self-discovery and an interface that works with the user. To be honest, I believe that dselect is a very difficult programme to use for persons new to debian (but not linux) like myself. And I have no fear of text-mode apps, I just prefer them to have better user interfaces. I think this can probably be done without compromising the power of dselect. This is all just part of the feedback process, Debian must clearly continue to develop and be enhanced. If that means a better dselect then surely that is a good thing? Regards, Jason. Being a text-mode program is NOT deselect's problem with not being user-friendly. Right, it is not having a clearly marked button that drives many of today's users into fits. They did not read the docs so they do not know that R means Revert if they get thrown into conflict resolution and a bunch of packages get marked for removal and that Q will take them back to where they were in the selection menu without rechecking for conflicts. Basicly it is a program that you must read ALL of the instructions for before using and it and it expects you to have done so. It is NOT a program you can figure out as you go along.
why so much hate?
hi. from Altag. I can't figure out why Dselect package ,loving debian so strong, is so antiquate and really unfriendly. from debian-developers really nothing better? Alex - Get free personalized email from Lycos at http://it.lycosmail.com
RE: why so much hate?
Hmm, While I agree that dselect could use some functionality to help users who screw up dependancy's It's far from antiquated. In fact, as a former RedHat (RPM) user, I can say that the debian package management system (and it's frony end, dselect) is very advanced. Keep in mind, dselect is the -standard- debian package management front end. as such, it must be able to run on ANY debian system, including 386 -class machines with black-and-white terminals and no X Windows. You may be interested in looking into the GTK front-end instead. I haven't used it myself, so I can't really say if it's any more user-friendly. Bryan On 18-Jul-99 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hi. from Altag. I can't figure out why Dselect package ,loving debian so strong, is so antiquate and really unfriendly. from debian-developers really nothing better? Alex -
GTK front end- WAS: RE: why so much hate?
On 17-Jul-99 Bryan Scaringe wrote: Hmm, While I agree that dselect could use some functionality to help users who screw up dependancy's It's far from antiquated. In fact, as a former RedHat (RPM) user, I can say that the debian package management system (and it's frony end, dselect) is very advanced. Keep in mind, dselect is the -standard- debian package management front end. as such, it must be able to run on ANY debian system, including 386 -class machines with black-and-white terminals and no X Windows. You may be interested in looking into the GTK front-end instead. I haven't used it myself, so I can't really say if it's any more user-friendly. GTK front end? Where can I find this? thanks -- Andrew
GTK front end- WAS: RE: why so much hate?
Pollywog writes: GTK front end? Where can I find this? gnome-apt in potato -- it's still unstable. I don't know if anyone is using it yet, so beware! Some of the GUI functions are placeholders still. You may get more mileage out of dselect at this point after a careful read-through of the docs and some experience with the interface. Then if you don't know how to accomplish something with dselect, ask here by all means. -- Jesse
