Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
On Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 04:26:53PM +0200, Tollef Fog Heen wrote: * Glenn McGrath | By the same argument i should be able to opt out of recieving mail from the | bug tracking system about any future bugs in the package i maintain, Nope, because part of your duties as a maintainer is to fix those bugs, and/or pass them upstream. Well, Michael could just send them to the BTS instead. Then his operation would be more legitimate apparently. I find the emails a bit irritating but not enough to overreact badly on debian-vote! Hamish -- Hamish Moffatt VK3SB [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
On Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 10:47:02AM -0500, Adam Heath wrote: Seconded. I propose a cooling off period for proposals on debian-vote. Submit your proposal, and it will be released one week later unless you have retracted it. That should stop this nonsense. Hamish -- Hamish Moffatt VK3SB [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
On Sat, Oct 06, 2001 at 05:10:38PM +1000, Hamish Moffatt wrote: On Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 10:47:02AM -0500, Adam Heath wrote: Seconded. I propose a cooling off period for proposals on debian-vote. Submit your proposal, and it will be released one week later unless you have retracted it. That should stop this nonsense. What's the point? My proposal hasn't met quorum and it doesn't look like it's going to (unless perhaps Michael starts spamming again soon), so it will die on the table. The Constitution, for good or ill, assures that it takes at least two weeks for a General Resolution to be passed, even with overwhelming developer support and the Project Leader shortening deadlines. That sounds like enough of a built-in cooling-off period to me. -- G. Branden Robinson| Debian GNU/Linux | Bother, said Pooh, as he was [EMAIL PROTECTED] | assimilated by the Borg. http://people.debian.org/~branden/ | msg01275/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
On Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 04:26:53PM +0200, Tollef Fog Heen wrote: * Glenn McGrath | By the same argument i should be able to opt out of recieving mail from the | bug tracking system about any future bugs in the package i maintain, Nope, because part of your duties as a maintainer is to fix those bugs, and/or pass them upstream. Well, Michael could just send them to the BTS instead. Then his operation would be more legitimate apparently. I find the emails a bit irritating but not enough to overreact badly on debian-vote! Hamish -- Hamish Moffatt VK3SB [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
On Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 10:47:02AM -0500, Adam Heath wrote: Seconded. I propose a cooling off period for proposals on debian-vote. Submit your proposal, and it will be released one week later unless you have retracted it. That should stop this nonsense. Hamish -- Hamish Moffatt VK3SB [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
On Sat, Oct 06, 2001 at 05:10:38PM +1000, Hamish Moffatt wrote: On Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 10:47:02AM -0500, Adam Heath wrote: Seconded. I propose a cooling off period for proposals on debian-vote. Submit your proposal, and it will be released one week later unless you have retracted it. That should stop this nonsense. What's the point? My proposal hasn't met quorum and it doesn't look like it's going to (unless perhaps Michael starts spamming again soon), so it will die on the table. The Constitution, for good or ill, assures that it takes at least two weeks for a General Resolution to be passed, even with overwhelming developer support and the Project Leader shortening deadlines. That sounds like enough of a built-in cooling-off period to me. -- G. Branden Robinson| Debian GNU/Linux | Bother, said Pooh, as he was [EMAIL PROTECTED] | assimilated by the Borg. http://people.debian.org/~branden/ | pgpMcXczqplaB.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
[Again, please followup to debian-vote.] On Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 08:27:40PM -0600, Jason Gunthorpe wrote: On Thu, 4 Oct 2001, Branden Robinson wrote: I request a ruling from the Debian-Admin team on whether Michael Bramer's actions constitute bulk emailing. We don't generally do rulings.. But, I personally feel that Grisu's actions aren't not extreme enough to warrent a formal punishment. With all due respect, that wasn't the question I asked. It seems like an honest mistake, in persuit of a good cause to me. What part of it was a mistake? His policies have been deliberate every step of the way. I'm not asking whether debian-admin thinks Michael should be punished, I'm asking debian-admin to rule on whether or not it views his recent activities as bulk emailing. I'd also like your opinion on the definition of abusive bulk emailing (for the purposes of the DMUP) that I posted. -- G. Branden Robinson| Human beings rarely imagine a god Debian GNU/Linux | that behaves any better than a [EMAIL PROTECTED] | spoiled child. http://people.debian.org/~branden/ | -- Robert Heinlein pgp5OQh4vy2pP.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
On Thu, 4 Oct 2001, Branden Robinson wrote: I'm not asking whether debian-admin thinks Michael should be punished, I'm asking debian-admin to rule on whether or not it views his recent activities as bulk emailing. (keep in mind this and the last message are not a formal statement from debian-admin) Then I misunderstood what you asked for. When you quoted the DMUP I assumed you were asking us to decided if he should be suspended or not, based on 'bulk mailing'. That is really the only use of that document. [1] Otherwise, I don't think it is our place to classify what Michael is doing as bulk email or not. What part of it was a mistake? His policies have been deliberate every step of the way. His mistake was in assuming people would not mind. Now that it has been pointed out that people do he should change his plans. If he does not, then he would be engaging in deliberate net-abuse. If I hear reports of that, then I will have a discussion with him, and likely require that he cease sending all mails until the techincal issues are worked out. In this case, if he refuses he will face suspension. I'd also like your opinion on the definition of abusive bulk emailing (for the purposes of the DMUP) that I posted. It seems reasonable to me, you'd want to define what bulk emailing actually means.. Personally I'd describe what he is doing as unsolicited automatic email. Debian has many sources for UAE and I think it's reasonable to say they should be kept in moderation. Jason [1] I had the DMUP written after an incident that resulted in the expulsion of a developer. I hoped it would remind new and existing developers that our machines are not their personal playground. At it's inception, and even now, I feel it's only use is for suspension and expulsion.
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
On Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 12:44:23PM -0500, Steve Langasek wrote: On Thu, 4 Oct 2001, Sven wrote: I received a german translation of on of my packages description, and after having read it, i communicated with the translator and together we found a better translation. Also i did change the english description following to this discution, as i noticed some things could be improved there also. So, at least something usefull as come of those mails, altough i agree with others that wouldn't know what to do with a japanese or rusian translation. Also, for those who complain, procmail is your friend, ... Please, let no one suggest further that procmail is a solution here. This is tantamount to admitting that these messages *are* equivalent to Spam -- that A sure, but some consider even replying to both the list and the sender of a mail as spam, while procmail could easily erase the unwanted message if needed, and complain loudly about it, occasionally starting huge threads here and there. Also, i am sure that if those messages that are complained about are filtered in their own mail folder, they would be much less of a hassle, and we would get less complaints, exept naturally for those using slow lines, and even then, these messages are not that huge. A more informative mail subject would help also though. This information is nice to have, but could be send in a more compacted form, maybe in a weekly or so digest. More advanced filtering (based on the language the maintainer speak or so) would be even better, but is more difficult to put in place, i think. I was among those who argued initially that the maintainer needs to be kept in the loop, and should therefore receive the translations. But clearly, there are maintainers who don't share this view, and they are (rightfully) upset Most of them english speaker, aren't they ? that they have to repeatedly ask, for every new package they upload, to be excluded from the notifications. For the sake of the DDTS itself, a technical solution should be found that lets developers opt out if they feel they have nothing to contribute to the translation process, and that lets everyone get back to work. Infighting among developers takes the focus away from both free software and our users, and telling dozens of developers[1] to shove off and use procmail if they don't like the state of things is just the sort of reaction that would encourage infighting. Ok, i agree with you on that, i just wanted to give a positive feedback on those mail everyone hated so much ... Friendly, Sven Luther
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
On Fri, 5 Oct 2001, Jason Gunthorpe wrote: His mistake was in assuming people would not mind. Now that it has been pointed out that people do he should change his plans. If he does not, then he would be engaging in deliberate net-abuse. The thing is, this is the second time people have told him to stop. the first time, he made it opt-out, and pre-seeded the database with some packages(based on maintainers who were upset). However, it was still opt-out, and still sending mails. How many times do you get to break the rule, before the law gets laid down? If I hear reports of that, then I will have a discussion with him, and likely require that he cease sending all mails until the techincal issues are worked out. In this case, if he refuses he will face suspension. You should already be having a 'discussion' with him. [1] I had the DMUP written after an incident that resulted in the expulsion of a developer. I hoped it would remind new and existing developers that our machines are not their personal playground. At it's inception, and even now, I feel it's only use is for suspension and expulsion. Maybe the DMUP is not precise enough?
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
Branden Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I propose that Michael Bramer be ordered to stop sending automated mails to other developers (regarding the DDTS or any other subject). If he does not comply within 24 hours of ratification of this proposal, he will be expelled from the Debian Project. That's what I like to see, mature and reasonable solutions to problems. -- Sam Couter | Internet Engineer | http://www.topic.com.au/ [EMAIL PROTECTED]| tSA Consulting | OpenPGP key ID: DE89C75C, available on key servers OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C PGP signature
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
On Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 01:35:17AM -0500, Branden Robinson wrote: I propose that Michael Bramer be ordered to stop sending automated mails to other developers (regarding the DDTS or any other subject). If he does not comply within 24 hours of ratification of this proposal, he will be expelled from the Debian Project. What about the first rule of the constitution: Nothing in this constitution imposes an obligation on anyone to do work for the Project. A person who does not want to do a task which has been delegated or assigned to them does not need to do it. However, they must not actively work against these rules and decisions properly made under them. ? Thanks, Mt. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
Branden Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I propose that Michael Bramer be ordered to stop sending automated mails to other developers (regarding the DDTS or any other subject). If he does not comply within 24 hours of ratification of this proposal, he will be expelled from the Debian Project. And I propose that developers who send useless childish smart ass one-liners to Debian mailing lists get expelled, too... no, wait, scratch that, there wouldn't be anyone left... Get real Branden. Michael's system has bugs. Just ask him to stop sending the messages, write an opt-in system (since it looks like people would consider an opt-out one out of the question) that uses email addresses instead of package names (send the DDTS mail iff the maintainer is on the list of people who want to get notified about this stuff), send a message to d-d-a and start sending the mails again. How hard can that be? It's four lines of perl... (golf anyone?) -- Marcelo | From the back, Vetinari looked like a carnivorous [EMAIL PROTECTED] | flamingo. | -- (Terry Pratchett, Men at Arms) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
Branden == Branden Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Branden I propose that Michael Bramer be ordered to stop sending Branden automated mails to other developers (regarding the DDTS Branden or any other subject). Branden If he does not comply within 24 hours of ratification of Branden this proposal, he will be expelled from the Debian Branden Project. So, if he is using Debian machines, it seems he may already be violating the Debian machine AUP. Certainly if I were doing something that sent automated mail to people that was not opt-in, I would feel compelled to respond promptly to requests to never send mail to people, regardless of the form of those requests. Have you considered sending to debian-admin or abuse or whatever the appropriate contact is and formally complaining that you are receiving spam from a Debian machine? If debian-admin makes a decision that what he is doing does not violate the AUP or if debian-admin fails to make a decision about a reasonable complaint formally presented to them, I would likely second a GR overturning this (non)determination. --Sam -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
On 04 Oct 2001 09:03:20 -0400 Sam Hartman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Branden == Branden Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Branden I propose that Michael Bramer be ordered to stop sending Branden automated mails to other developers (regarding the DDTS Branden or any other subject). Branden If he does not comply within 24 hours of ratification of Branden this proposal, he will be expelled from the Debian Branden Project. So, if he is using Debian machines, it seems he may already be violating the Debian machine AUP. Certainly if I were doing something that sent automated mail to people that was not opt-in, I would feel compelled to respond promptly to requests to never send mail to people, regardless of the form of those requests. Have you considered sending to debian-admin or abuse or whatever the appropriate contact is and formally complaining that you are receiving spam from a Debian machine? If debian-admin makes a decision that what he is doing does not violate the AUP or if debian-admin fails to make a decision about a reasonable complaint formally presented to them, I would likely second a GR overturning this (non)determination. --Sam By the same argument i should be able to opt out of recieving mail from the bug tracking system about any future bugs in the package i maintain, or opt out of receiving mail from debian-private. Its not constructive to try and improve debian by destorying the work of others. Branden _please_ think about what your doing before you next threaten someone with expulsion. Glenn -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
FWIW: The problem is expired, and I'm sure the vote is as well. People, take a rest, grow up etc. You know how Overfiend behaves, so this is nothing which wasn't anticipated. Regards, Joey -- Whenever you meet yourself you're in a time loop or in front of a mirror. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
Le Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 04:26:53PM +0200, Tollef Fog Heen écrivait: * Glenn McGrath | By the same argument i should be able to opt out of recieving mail from the | bug tracking system about any future bugs in the package i maintain, Nope, because part of your duties as a maintainer is to fix those bugs, and/or pass them upstream. Stop being stupid, our goal is to provide a good OS for all our users, this does include having *good* localized content whereever it's possible. For this the maintainer may want to review the translations ... That's EXACTLY why those mails have started to be sent ! But yes, the (un)subscription was not very practical so it has been stopped until a better solution is developed. Now, please stop those stupid (in fact I mean childish and irresponsible) [1] threats against volunteers who are only trying to help Debian achieve its goal. Cheers, [1] No names, people know what they do. -- Raphaël Hertzog -+- http://strasbourg.linuxfr.org/~raphael/ Le bouche à oreille du Net : http://www.beetell.com Naviguer sans se fatiguer à chercher : http://www.deenoo.com Formation Linux et logiciel libre : http://www.logidee.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
Nope, because part of your duties as a maintainer is to fix those bugs, and/or pass them upstream. No part of that requires you to get mails from the BTS. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
Le Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 10:47:14AM -0400, Sam Hartman écrivait: Right. However people seem to have expressed the opinion that they want an opt-in system not an opt-out system. I think this is mostly because of the unsubscription system not working. Do you happen to read the mails before replying ? I know the problems, i have acknowlegded them. The problem is gone, Michael is working on it, stop speaking about it in endless unuseful discussions ... Cheers, -- Raphaël Hertzog -+- http://strasbourg.linuxfr.org/~raphael/ Le bouche à oreille du Net : http://www.beetell.com Naviguer sans se fatiguer à chercher : http://www.deenoo.com Formation Linux et logiciel libre : http://www.logidee.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
* Raphael Hertzog [EMAIL PROTECTED] [011004 09:55]: have acknowlegded them. The problem is gone, Michael is working on it, The problem isn't gone until someone has implemented it. Or is it turned off until implemented? -- Scott Dier [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ringworld.org/ #[EMAIL PROTECTED] History teaches that grave threats to liberty often come in times of urgency, when constitutional rights seem too extravagant to endure. - Justice Thurgood Marshall (1989) PGP signature
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
On Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 09:59:37AM -0500, Scott Dier wrote: * Raphael Hertzog [EMAIL PROTECTED] [011004 09:55]: have acknowlegded them. The problem is gone, Michael is working on it, The problem isn't gone until someone has implemented it. Or is it turned off until implemented? Yes it is. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
* Raphael Hertzog [EMAIL PROTECTED] [011004 10:29]: That's simply because they first tried with the not so nicely way. When someone asks politely something, it gets done usually rapidly. When When someone uses project resources to abuse you first, you have to be nice? -- Scott Dier [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ringworld.org/ #[EMAIL PROTECTED] History teaches that grave threats to liberty often come in times of urgency, when constitutional rights seem too extravagant to endure. - Justice Thurgood Marshall (1989) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
Raphael Hertzog wrote: Le Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 04:21:13PM +0200, Martin Schulze écrivait: People, take a rest, grow up etc. You know how Overfiend behaves, so this is nothing which wasn't anticipated. We should write an HOWTO react to Overfiend's mails for the new developers joining that have not yet faced him. We could also put a NOO! That would remove the fun part from Debian, I don't appreciate that. Regards, Joey -- Whenever you meet yourself you're in a time loop or in front of a mirror. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
Branden == Branden Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Branden I propose that Michael Bramer be ordered to stop sending Branden automated mails to other developers (regarding the DDTS or Branden any other subject). After a discussion on IRC, I am given to understand that the automated messages have now been stopped, and an opt-in method shall be implemented, time permitting, and therefore this proposal is now moot. manoj -- I believe in a God which doesn't need heavy financing. Fletch Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
On Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 05:36:12PM +0200, Martin Schulze wrote: Raphael Hertzog wrote: Le Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 04:26:53PM +0200, Tollef Fog Heen écrivait: * Glenn McGrath | By the same argument i should be able to opt out of recieving mail from the | bug tracking system about any future bugs in the package i maintain, Nope, because part of your duties as a maintainer is to fix those bugs, and/or pass them upstream. Stop being stupid, our goal is to provide a good OS for all our users, this does include having *good* localized content whereever it's possible. For this the maintainer may want to review the translations ... Ok. But what if these mails didn't help doing that? What if they don't contain something like Please add the following to your debian/control file in order to get xyz language support for the package description? What if the mails didn't contain anything the maintainer could deal with if the translation did accidently meet his native language? What if there was no proper way developed how to deal with such translations? What if those mails were used to confuse maintainers and raise the grief-factor? Well, just as a positive note on this ... I received a german translation of on of my packages description, and after having read it, i communicated with the translator and together we found a better translation. Also i did change the english description following to this discution, as i noticed some things could be improved there also. So, at least something usefull as come of those mails, altough i agree with others that wouldn't know what to do with a japanese or rusian translation. Also, for those who complain, procmail is your friend, ... Friendly, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
Le Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 10:30:37AM -0500, Scott Dier écrivait: * Raphael Hertzog [EMAIL PROTECTED] [011004 10:29]: That's simply because they first tried with the not so nicely way. When someone asks politely something, it gets done usually rapidly. When When someone uses project resources to abuse you first, you have to be nice? Is trying to improve Debian by letting maintainers control the descriptions an abuse ? Please stop this discussion here, all of this has already been discussed. -- Raphaël Hertzog -+- http://strasbourg.linuxfr.org/~raphael/ Le bouche à oreille du Net : http://www.beetell.com Naviguer sans se fatiguer à chercher : http://www.deenoo.com Formation Linux et logiciel libre : http://www.logidee.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, 4 Oct 2001, Branden Robinson wrote: I propose that Michael Bramer be ordered to stop sending automated mails to other developers (regarding the DDTS or any other subject). If he does not comply within 24 hours of ratification of this proposal, he will be expelled from the Debian Project. I am seeking seconds for this proposal. -- G. Branden Robinson| Communism is just one step on the Debian GNU/Linux | long road from capitalism to [EMAIL PROTECTED] | capitalism. http://people.debian.org/~branden/ | -- Russian saying Seconded. - BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK Version: 3.12 GCS d- s: a-- c+++ UL P+ L !E W+ M o+ K- W--- !O M- !V PS-- PE++ Y+ PGP++ t* 5++ X+ tv b+ D++ G e h*! !r z? - -END GEEK CODE BLOCK- - BEGIN PGP INFO Adam Heath [EMAIL PROTECTED]Finger Print | KeyID 67 01 42 93 CA 37 FB 1E63 C9 80 1D 08 CF 84 0A | DE656B05 PGP AD46 C888 F587 F8A3 A6DA 3261 8A2C 7DC2 8BD4 A489 | 8BD4A489 GPG - -END PGP INFO- -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.75-6 iD8DBQE7vISbiix9wovUpIkRAp+bAJ4yNSf14J3Wzh4/PRaVZDTz9gnxmACcDzDh N3R5VDz7m20/SuwNtaduVNI= =zyB8 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
* Raphael Hertzog [EMAIL PROTECTED] [011004 10:46]: When someone uses project resources to abuse you first, you have to be nice? Is trying to improve Debian by letting maintainers control the descriptions an abuse ? Obviously the idea of opt-out vs opt-in for things like this escapes you, but your want to end the thread is fine, we will leave it at that. -- Scott Dier [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ringworld.org/ #[EMAIL PROTECTED] History teaches that grave threats to liberty often come in times of urgency, when constitutional rights seem too extravagant to endure. - Justice Thurgood Marshall (1989) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
On 10/04/2001 10:30:37 AM Scott Dier wrote: * Raphael Hertzog [EMAIL PROTECTED] [011004 10:29]: That's simply because they first tried with the not so nicely way. When someone asks politely something, it gets done usually rapidly. When When someone uses project resources to abuse you first, you have to be nice? Why, as a matter of fact, yes. Especially when most people do not consider it abuse. You will find, as you gain more experience in the world, that being nice to people generally gets you further ahead, in the long run, and the golden rule generally applies. Don't confuse non-assertiveness with being nice, of course. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
On Thu, 4 Oct 2001, Raphael Hertzog wrote: Le Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 04:26:53PM +0200, Tollef Fog Heen écrivait: * Glenn McGrath | By the same argument i should be able to opt out of recieving mail from the | bug tracking system about any future bugs in the package i maintain, Nope, because part of your duties as a maintainer is to fix those bugs, and/or pass them upstream. Stop being stupid, our goal is to provide a good OS for all our users, this does include having *good* localized content whereever it's possible. For this the maintainer may want to review the translations ... I don't think anyone here is saying we shouldn't translate everything. However, what Michael has done is not official, and is a hack-end-run around the existing tools. Until maintainers can actually make use of the information, it serves no purpose(the emails, not the translations). That's EXACTLY why those mails have started to be sent ! No, they are being sent because Michael wants to push his pet project onto the rest of the project. But yes, the (un)subscription was not very practical so it has been stopped until a better solution is developed. The (un)subscription was stopped? Do you mean the mails were still being sent? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
Adam Heath wrote: That's EXACTLY why those mails have started to be sent ! No, they are being sent because Michael wants to push his pet project onto the rest of the project. Err... no.. it's because people have requested it. Unfortunately they haven't thought about the consequences too much... Regards, Joey -- Whenever you meet yourself you're in a time loop or in front of a mirror. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
You will find, as you gain more experience in the world, that being nice to Thanks dad! /sarcasm -- Scott Dier [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ringworld.org/ #[EMAIL PROTECTED] History teaches that grave threats to liberty often come in times of urgency, when constitutional rights seem too extravagant to endure. - Justice Thurgood Marshall (1989) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
Le Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 10:53:01AM -0500, Adam Heath écrivait: I don't think anyone here is saying we shouldn't translate everything. However, what Michael has done is not official, and is a hack-end-run around the existing tools. The fact that the current solution is not yet integrated changes nothing to the value of the translation itself. It's even Wichert who said that this effort should continue as it is until the support of it (whose form is unknown as of yet) has been integrated into dpkg and the other tools. Until maintainers can actually make use of the information, it serves no purpose(the emails, not the translations). They can proofread the translations when they know the languages. They can refuse some translations (although the impact of this refusal is really limited since not many people use the actual mechanism). That's EXACTLY why those mails have started to be sent ! No, they are being sent because Michael wants to push his pet project onto the rest of the project. No, some people have asked that. Look the archives. But yes, the (un)subscription was not very practical so it has been stopped until a better solution is developed. The (un)subscription was stopped? Do you mean the mails were still being sent? The mails are no more sent until a better subscription mechanism is available. You could have read that several times elsewhere in this thread. Cheers, -- Raphaël Hertzog -+- http://strasbourg.linuxfr.org/~raphael/ Le bouche à oreille du Net : http://www.beetell.com Naviguer sans se fatiguer à chercher : http://www.deenoo.com Formation Linux et logiciel libre : http://www.logidee.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
On Thu, 4 Oct 2001, Raphael Hertzog wrote: The mails are no more sent until a better subscription mechanism is available. You could have read that several times elsewhere in this thread. Perhaps you missed previous threads. I suggest you go back and read up on them. We have said what we wanted before. It was ignored. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
On Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 11:12:38AM -0500, Adam Heath wrote: On Thu, 4 Oct 2001, Raphael Hertzog wrote: The mails are no more sent until a better subscription mechanism is available. You could have read that several times elsewhere in this thread. Perhaps you missed previous threads. I suggest you go back and read up on them. We have said what we wanted before. It was ignored. Every time I open a wishlist bug, I say what I want to be implemented. I'm always more polite than you are, and I often get ignored. That's life. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
On 04/10/01, Sam Hartman wrote: Branden == Branden Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Branden I propose that Michael Bramer be ordered to stop sending Branden automated mails to other developers (regarding the DDTS Branden or any other subject). Branden If he does not comply within 24 hours of ratification of Branden this proposal, he will be expelled from the Debian Branden Project. So, if he is using Debian machines, it seems he may already be violating the Debian machine AUP. Certainly if I were doing something Would you mind explaining which part of the AUP he is exactly violating? I'm not aware of any violation of the AUP. Have you considered sending to debian-admin or abuse or whatever the appropriate contact is and formally complaining that you are receiving spam from a Debian machine? If debian-admin makes a decision that And would you mind trying to explain why exactly this mails are spam and the mail from the BTS with information like The BTS received the following information or from the Upload queue daemons with a content like Your package has been uploaded are not considered as spam? Christian -- Debian Developer (http://www.debian.org) 1024/26CC7853 31E6 A8CA 68FC 284F 7D16 63EC A9E6 67FF 26CC 7853 PGP signature
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
On Thu, 4 Oct 2001, Sven wrote: I received a german translation of on of my packages description, and after having read it, i communicated with the translator and together we found a better translation. Also i did change the english description following to this discution, as i noticed some things could be improved there also. So, at least something usefull as come of those mails, altough i agree with others that wouldn't know what to do with a japanese or rusian translation. Also, for those who complain, procmail is your friend, ... Please, let no one suggest further that procmail is a solution here. This is tantamount to admitting that these messages *are* equivalent to Spam -- that because the recipient has the technical means to filter out the messages, they have no cause for complaint. But the burden should not be on the recipient to make the system work the way it needs to, it should be on the sender of the messages. I was among those who argued initially that the maintainer needs to be kept in the loop, and should therefore receive the translations. But clearly, there are maintainers who don't share this view, and they are (rightfully) upset that they have to repeatedly ask, for every new package they upload, to be excluded from the notifications. For the sake of the DDTS itself, a technical solution should be found that lets developers opt out if they feel they have nothing to contribute to the translation process, and that lets everyone get back to work. Infighting among developers takes the focus away from both free software and our users, and telling dozens of developers[1] to shove off and use procmail if they don't like the state of things is just the sort of reaction that would encourage infighting. Steve Langasek postmodern programmer [1] I'm assuming that the developers currently participating in these discussions are not the only ones who are displeased with the current state of affairs, as that would be statistically improbable. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
On Thu, 4 Oct 2001, Steve Langasek wrote: On Thu, 4 Oct 2001, Sven wrote: I received a german translation of on of my packages description, and after having read it, i communicated with the translator and together we found a better translation. Also i did change the english description following to this discution, as i noticed some things could be improved there also. So, at least something usefull as come of those mails, altough i agree with others that wouldn't know what to do with a japanese or rusian translation. Also, for those who complain, procmail is your friend, ... Please, let no one suggest further that procmail is a solution here. This is tantamount to admitting that these messages *are* equivalent to Spam -- that because the recipient has the technical means to filter out the messages, they have no cause for complaint. But the burden should not be on the recipient to make the system work the way it needs to, it should be on the sender of the messages. I was among those who argued initially that the maintainer needs to be kept in the loop, and should therefore receive the translations. But clearly, there are maintainers who don't share this view, and they are (rightfully) upset that they have to repeatedly ask, for every new package they upload, to be excluded from the notifications. For the sake of the DDTS itself, a technical solution should be found that lets developers opt out if they feel they have nothing to contribute to the translation process, and that lets everyone get back to work. Infighting among developers takes the focus away from both free software and our users, and telling dozens of developers[1] to shove off and use procmail if they don't like the state of things is just the sort of reaction that would encourage infighting. opt in opt in opt in opt in opt in opt in opt in opt in opt in opt in opt in -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
Branden Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: He continues to assert on debian-devel that he should have the right to send unsolicited, automatic mails with a default policy of having every maintainer subscribed to his list. How about if instead of this, he sent automated entries to the BTS? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
On Thu, 4 Oct 2001 19:26:31 -0500 Branden Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You may not advertise your WWW pages, or cause another person to advertise it, by techniques that would be classified as abuse if they were carried out from a Debian Account. This includes, but is not limited to, bulk emailing and excessive news posting. Such action may be treated under the appropriate DMUP as if it had been done from the Account, or as a violation of this DMUP or both. I request a ruling from the Debian-Admin team on whether Michael Bramer's actions constitute bulk emailing. It is my personal opinion that it does, but that bulk emailing should be accepted under the following circumstances: According to http://www.imc.org/uce-def.html (im sure there are lots of other definitions laying about though) Unsolicited Bulk Email, or UBE, is Internet mail (email) that is sent to a group of recipients who have not requested it. From what i understand your disagreement is purely with who have not requested it part, however messages are no more being sent to a group of recipients than BTS mail. I think it should be considered to be just like mail from the BTS. Glenn -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
Branden Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I propose that Michael Bramer be ordered to stop sending automated mails to other developers (regarding the DDTS or any other subject). If he does not comply within 24 hours of ratification of this proposal, he will be expelled from the Debian Project. I am seeking seconds for this proposal. Oh heavens, surely there is a better way to address it than leaping to this solution.
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
Branden Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I propose that Michael Bramer be ordered to stop sending automated mails to other developers (regarding the DDTS or any other subject). If he does not comply within 24 hours of ratification of this proposal, he will be expelled from the Debian Project. That's what I like to see, mature and reasonable solutions to problems. -- Sam Couter | Internet Engineer | http://www.topic.com.au/ [EMAIL PROTECTED]| tSA Consulting | OpenPGP key ID: DE89C75C, available on key servers OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C pgphDqVRY11ed.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
On Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 01:35:17AM -0500, Branden Robinson wrote: I propose that Michael Bramer be ordered to stop sending automated mails to other developers (regarding the DDTS or any other subject). If he does not comply within 24 hours of ratification of this proposal, he will be expelled from the Debian Project. What about the first rule of the constitution: Nothing in this constitution imposes an obligation on anyone to do work for the Project. A person who does not want to do a task which has been delegated or assigned to them does not need to do it. However, they must not actively work against these rules and decisions properly made under them. ? Thanks, Mt.
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
Branden Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I propose that Michael Bramer be ordered to stop sending automated mails to other developers (regarding the DDTS or any other subject). If he does not comply within 24 hours of ratification of this proposal, he will be expelled from the Debian Project. And I propose that developers who send useless childish smart ass one-liners to Debian mailing lists get expelled, too... no, wait, scratch that, there wouldn't be anyone left... Get real Branden. Michael's system has bugs. Just ask him to stop sending the messages, write an opt-in system (since it looks like people would consider an opt-out one out of the question) that uses email addresses instead of package names (send the DDTS mail iff the maintainer is on the list of people who want to get notified about this stuff), send a message to d-d-a and start sending the mails again. How hard can that be? It's four lines of perl... (golf anyone?) -- Marcelo | From the back, Vetinari looked like a carnivorous [EMAIL PROTECTED] | flamingo. | -- (Terry Pratchett, Men at Arms)
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
Branden == Branden Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Branden I propose that Michael Bramer be ordered to stop sending Branden automated mails to other developers (regarding the DDTS Branden or any other subject). Branden If he does not comply within 24 hours of ratification of Branden this proposal, he will be expelled from the Debian Branden Project. So, if he is using Debian machines, it seems he may already be violating the Debian machine AUP. Certainly if I were doing something that sent automated mail to people that was not opt-in, I would feel compelled to respond promptly to requests to never send mail to people, regardless of the form of those requests. Have you considered sending to debian-admin or abuse or whatever the appropriate contact is and formally complaining that you are receiving spam from a Debian machine? If debian-admin makes a decision that what he is doing does not violate the AUP or if debian-admin fails to make a decision about a reasonable complaint formally presented to them, I would likely second a GR overturning this (non)determination. --Sam
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
On 04/10/01, Branden Robinson wrote: I propose that Michael Bramer be ordered to stop sending automated mails to other developers (regarding the DDTS or any other subject). If he does not comply within 24 hours of ratification of this proposal, he will be expelled from the Debian Project. I am seeking seconds for this proposal. Pardon? Michael Bramer wanted to improve Debian by starting a translation project to help people who either don't speak english or understand it only very bad. He and some other people, who helped him, invested their free time in creating the necessary framework. Then when the DDTS, as he called the project, send out notifications to the maintainers about those translations, people only complained loudly about the mails and the spamming as they called it and I saw nobody in the discussion about this on debian-devel offering to help Michael Bramer rewriting or fixing the framework to meet their needs. Now some people again complained only loudly, without offering any help and you also proposed mail-bombing Michael Bramer, for investing so much free time in this project (DDTS). And now you even propose to expell him just for trying to improve Debian and contribute a bit more to it? And just giving someone 24 hours to respond and comply to some proposal is bad-chosen, because on the one hand it leaks exact information about which day,time and timezone this ultimatum will end and also that's not enough time for people who work only in their free time on such a project and half also a job and maybe a family. If this proposal will really be seconded and Michael Bramer expelled, I think I need to rethink why I once joined this project and if the chances that happened since that time are still acceptable or not. I've the feeling that some people here are forgetting that everyone here is a human being and that there are unwritten rules for polite behaviour. So for everyone who still didn't understood that message, I'm complete against that proposal. Christian -- Debian Developer (http://www.debian.org) 1024/26CC7853 31E6 A8CA 68FC 284F 7D16 63EC A9E6 67FF 26CC 7853 pgp0XFjwiiPmy.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
On 04 Oct 2001 09:03:20 -0400 Sam Hartman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Branden == Branden Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Branden I propose that Michael Bramer be ordered to stop sending Branden automated mails to other developers (regarding the DDTS Branden or any other subject). Branden If he does not comply within 24 hours of ratification of Branden this proposal, he will be expelled from the Debian Branden Project. So, if he is using Debian machines, it seems he may already be violating the Debian machine AUP. Certainly if I were doing something that sent automated mail to people that was not opt-in, I would feel compelled to respond promptly to requests to never send mail to people, regardless of the form of those requests. Have you considered sending to debian-admin or abuse or whatever the appropriate contact is and formally complaining that you are receiving spam from a Debian machine? If debian-admin makes a decision that what he is doing does not violate the AUP or if debian-admin fails to make a decision about a reasonable complaint formally presented to them, I would likely second a GR overturning this (non)determination. --Sam By the same argument i should be able to opt out of recieving mail from the bug tracking system about any future bugs in the package i maintain, or opt out of receiving mail from debian-private. Its not constructive to try and improve debian by destorying the work of others. Branden _please_ think about what your doing before you next threaten someone with expulsion. Glenn
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
FWIW: The problem is expired, and I'm sure the vote is as well. People, take a rest, grow up etc. You know how Overfiend behaves, so this is nothing which wasn't anticipated. Regards, Joey -- Whenever you meet yourself you're in a time loop or in front of a mirror.
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
* Glenn McGrath | By the same argument i should be able to opt out of recieving mail from the | bug tracking system about any future bugs in the package i maintain, Nope, because part of your duties as a maintainer is to fix those bugs, and/or pass them upstream. | or opt out of receiving mail from debian-private. Which you can. You should be on d-d-a, though. -- Tollef Fog Heen Axiom #1: You Can't Win
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
Le Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 04:26:53PM +0200, Tollef Fog Heen écrivait: * Glenn McGrath | By the same argument i should be able to opt out of recieving mail from the | bug tracking system about any future bugs in the package i maintain, Nope, because part of your duties as a maintainer is to fix those bugs, and/or pass them upstream. Stop being stupid, our goal is to provide a good OS for all our users, this does include having *good* localized content whereever it's possible. For this the maintainer may want to review the translations ... That's EXACTLY why those mails have started to be sent ! But yes, the (un)subscription was not very practical so it has been stopped until a better solution is developed. Now, please stop those stupid (in fact I mean childish and irresponsible) [1] threats against volunteers who are only trying to help Debian achieve its goal. Cheers, [1] No names, people know what they do. -- Raphaël Hertzog -+- http://strasbourg.linuxfr.org/~raphael/ Le bouche à oreille du Net : http://www.beetell.com Naviguer sans se fatiguer à chercher : http://www.deenoo.com Formation Linux et logiciel libre : http://www.logidee.com
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
[Hopefully we can finish this discussion quickly or move to personal mail. The issue at hand no longer matters. ] Glenn == Glenn McGrath [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Glenn By the same argument i should be able to opt out of Glenn recieving mail from the bug tracking system about any Glenn future bugs in the package i maintain, Unlike the translation server, the BTS was something you knew about/agreed to when you joined the project. If we had no bug tracking system, and someone wanted to set one up, then either it should be opt-out, or they should get Debian to agree that it was part of being a developer. That agreement could come from a consensus or by passing a GR. Glenn or opt out of Glenn receiving mail from debian-private. You can opt-out of debian-private. Unsubscription instructions are at the bottom of every mail. However, I really think debian-private is also opt-in; I certainly knew I was agreing to get mail from it when I joined the project. Glenn Its not constructive to try and improve debian by Glenn destorying the work of others. Sure, it might have been nice if Branden had offered to write code rather than proposing a GR. However if Michael's actions violate the AUP, then they do so regardless of whether they are advancing the goals of the project. Michael agreed to follow the AUP not just when it was convenient to do so but all the time while working as a developer.Besides Branden was not asking that the translations stop; simply that the mail stop. Glenn Branden _please_ think about what your doing before you Glenn next threaten someone with expulsion. It wasn't much of a threat. Branden effectively said in very formal language, Michael, I think what you are doing is wrong. We aren't agreeing, so I'm going to ask all of Debian if they agree what you are doing is wrong. If there is support for my position, we'll have a long multi-week debate and eventually a vote. If after Debian has formally decided that what you are doing is wrong, you still refuse to stop, then you will no longer be part of Debian. Frankly I'm willing to make that style of threat against any developer: if any Debian developer continues doing something that Debian has formally asked them to stop doing through a proper GR process, that developer should no longer be part of Debian. --Sam
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
Raphael == Raphael Hertzog [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Raphael Stop being stupid, our goal is to provide a good OS for Raphael all our users, this does include having *good* localized Raphael content whereever it's possible. For this the maintainer Raphael may want to review the translations ... Raphael That's EXACTLY why those mails have started to be sent ! Right. However people seem to have expressed the opinion that they want an opt-in system not an opt-out system. I think this is mostly because of the unsubscription system not working. If people really believe an opt-out system has significant value over an opt-in system, then see if you can get support for an opt-out system with reasonable working opt-out.
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
Le Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 04:21:13PM +0200, Martin Schulze écrivait: People, take a rest, grow up etc. You know how Overfiend behaves, so this is nothing which wasn't anticipated. We should write an HOWTO react to Overfiend's mails for the new developers joining that have not yet faced him. We could also put a warning on the developers corner Please ignore Overfiend's attacks and try to find the substance of his message ... don't try to hard, it may not always be possible. Cheers, -- Raphaël Hertzog -+- http://strasbourg.linuxfr.org/~raphael/ Le bouche à oreille du Net : http://www.beetell.com Naviguer sans se fatiguer à chercher : http://www.deenoo.com Formation Linux et logiciel libre : http://www.logidee.com
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
Nope, because part of your duties as a maintainer is to fix those bugs, and/or pass them upstream. No part of that requires you to get mails from the BTS.
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
* Raphael Hertzog [EMAIL PROTECTED] [011004 09:55]: have acknowlegded them. The problem is gone, Michael is working on it, The problem isn't gone until someone has implemented it. Or is it turned off until implemented? -- Scott Dier [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ringworld.org/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] History teaches that grave threats to liberty often come in times of urgency, when constitutional rights seem too extravagant to endure. - Justice Thurgood Marshall (1989) pgpwnweDaeZFR.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
* Raphael Hertzog [EMAIL PROTECTED] [011004 09:48]: We should write an HOWTO react to Overfiend's mails for the new Actually, I'm with Sam on this one, Branden is taking the right path. I'm not badly affected by this but some of the other developers with oggles of packages are, and they have been asking nicely and not so nicely and it hadn't stopped yet. By starting the policy process ensures that there is a pressure-force to make these changes happen. I assure you as soon as they happen people *will* stop bitching. We dont have a problem with the intent, we have a problem with the current implementation. -- Scott Dier [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ringworld.org/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] History teaches that grave threats to liberty often come in times of urgency, when constitutional rights seem too extravagant to endure. - Justice Thurgood Marshall (1989)
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
On Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 09:59:37AM -0500, Scott Dier wrote: * Raphael Hertzog [EMAIL PROTECTED] [011004 09:55]: have acknowlegded them. The problem is gone, Michael is working on it, The problem isn't gone until someone has implemented it. Or is it turned off until implemented? Yes it is.
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
Le Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 10:02:32AM -0500, Scott Dier écrivait: I'm not badly affected by this but some of the other developers with oggles of packages are, and they have been asking nicely and not so nicely and it hadn't stopped yet. That's simply because they first tried with the not so nicely way. When someone asks politely something, it gets done usually rapidly. When someone insults you, you tend to ignore him until more respectful people tell you that they are right and that you'd better do it anyway. Cheers, -- Raphaël Hertzog -+- http://strasbourg.linuxfr.org/~raphael/ Le bouche à oreille du Net : http://www.beetell.com Naviguer sans se fatiguer à chercher : http://www.deenoo.com Formation Linux et logiciel libre : http://www.logidee.com
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
* Raphael Hertzog [EMAIL PROTECTED] [011004 10:29]: That's simply because they first tried with the not so nicely way. When someone asks politely something, it gets done usually rapidly. When When someone uses project resources to abuse you first, you have to be nice? -- Scott Dier [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ringworld.org/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] History teaches that grave threats to liberty often come in times of urgency, when constitutional rights seem too extravagant to endure. - Justice Thurgood Marshall (1989)
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
Raphael Hertzog wrote: Le Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 04:21:13PM +0200, Martin Schulze écrivait: People, take a rest, grow up etc. You know how Overfiend behaves, so this is nothing which wasn't anticipated. We should write an HOWTO react to Overfiend's mails for the new developers joining that have not yet faced him. We could also put a NOO! That would remove the fun part from Debian, I don't appreciate that. Regards, Joey -- Whenever you meet yourself you're in a time loop or in front of a mirror.
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
Branden == Branden Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Branden I propose that Michael Bramer be ordered to stop sending Branden automated mails to other developers (regarding the DDTS or Branden any other subject). After a discussion on IRC, I am given to understand that the automated messages have now been stopped, and an opt-in method shall be implemented, time permitting, and therefore this proposal is now moot. manoj -- I believe in a God which doesn't need heavy financing. Fletch Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024R/C7261095 print CB D9 F4 12 68 07 E4 05 CC 2D 27 12 1D F5 E8 6E 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
Raphael Hertzog wrote: Le Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 04:26:53PM +0200, Tollef Fog Heen écrivait: * Glenn McGrath | By the same argument i should be able to opt out of recieving mail from the | bug tracking system about any future bugs in the package i maintain, Nope, because part of your duties as a maintainer is to fix those bugs, and/or pass them upstream. Stop being stupid, our goal is to provide a good OS for all our users, this does include having *good* localized content whereever it's possible. For this the maintainer may want to review the translations ... Ok. But what if these mails didn't help doing that? What if they don't contain something like Please add the following to your debian/control file in order to get xyz language support for the package description? What if the mails didn't contain anything the maintainer could deal with if the translation did accidently meet his native language? What if there was no proper way developed how to deal with such translations? What if those mails were used to confuse maintainers and raise the grief-factor? And what if this all would be true? Oh well... Regards, Joey -- Whenever you meet yourself you're in a time loop or in front of a mirror.
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
On Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 05:36:12PM +0200, Martin Schulze wrote: Raphael Hertzog wrote: Le Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 04:26:53PM +0200, Tollef Fog Heen écrivait: * Glenn McGrath | By the same argument i should be able to opt out of recieving mail from the | bug tracking system about any future bugs in the package i maintain, Nope, because part of your duties as a maintainer is to fix those bugs, and/or pass them upstream. Stop being stupid, our goal is to provide a good OS for all our users, this does include having *good* localized content whereever it's possible. For this the maintainer may want to review the translations ... Ok. But what if these mails didn't help doing that? What if they don't contain something like Please add the following to your debian/control file in order to get xyz language support for the package description? What if the mails didn't contain anything the maintainer could deal with if the translation did accidently meet his native language? What if there was no proper way developed how to deal with such translations? What if those mails were used to confuse maintainers and raise the grief-factor? Well, just as a positive note on this ... I received a german translation of on of my packages description, and after having read it, i communicated with the translator and together we found a better translation. Also i did change the english description following to this discution, as i noticed some things could be improved there also. So, at least something usefull as come of those mails, altough i agree with others that wouldn't know what to do with a japanese or rusian translation. Also, for those who complain, procmail is your friend, ... Friendly, Sven Luther
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
Le Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 10:30:37AM -0500, Scott Dier écrivait: * Raphael Hertzog [EMAIL PROTECTED] [011004 10:29]: That's simply because they first tried with the not so nicely way. When someone asks politely something, it gets done usually rapidly. When When someone uses project resources to abuse you first, you have to be nice? Is trying to improve Debian by letting maintainers control the descriptions an abuse ? Please stop this discussion here, all of this has already been discussed. -- Raphaël Hertzog -+- http://strasbourg.linuxfr.org/~raphael/ Le bouche à oreille du Net : http://www.beetell.com Naviguer sans se fatiguer à chercher : http://www.deenoo.com Formation Linux et logiciel libre : http://www.logidee.com
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, 4 Oct 2001, Branden Robinson wrote: I propose that Michael Bramer be ordered to stop sending automated mails to other developers (regarding the DDTS or any other subject). If he does not comply within 24 hours of ratification of this proposal, he will be expelled from the Debian Project. I am seeking seconds for this proposal. -- G. Branden Robinson| Communism is just one step on the Debian GNU/Linux | long road from capitalism to [EMAIL PROTECTED] | capitalism. http://people.debian.org/~branden/ | -- Russian saying Seconded. - BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK Version: 3.12 GCS d- s: a-- c+++ UL P+ L !E W+ M o+ K- W--- !O M- !V PS-- PE++ Y+ PGP++ t* 5++ X+ tv b+ D++ G e h*! !r z? - -END GEEK CODE BLOCK- - BEGIN PGP INFO Adam Heath [EMAIL PROTECTED]Finger Print | KeyID 67 01 42 93 CA 37 FB 1E63 C9 80 1D 08 CF 84 0A | DE656B05 PGP AD46 C888 F587 F8A3 A6DA 3261 8A2C 7DC2 8BD4 A489 | 8BD4A489 GPG - -END PGP INFO- -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.75-6 iD8DBQE7vISbiix9wovUpIkRAp+bAJ4yNSf14J3Wzh4/PRaVZDTz9gnxmACcDzDh N3R5VDz7m20/SuwNtaduVNI= =zyB8 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
* Raphael Hertzog [EMAIL PROTECTED] [011004 10:46]: When someone uses project resources to abuse you first, you have to be nice? Is trying to improve Debian by letting maintainers control the descriptions an abuse ? Obviously the idea of opt-out vs opt-in for things like this escapes you, but your want to end the thread is fine, we will leave it at that. -- Scott Dier [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ringworld.org/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] History teaches that grave threats to liberty often come in times of urgency, when constitutional rights seem too extravagant to endure. - Justice Thurgood Marshall (1989)
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
On 10/04/2001 10:30:37 AM Scott Dier wrote: * Raphael Hertzog [EMAIL PROTECTED] [011004 10:29]: That's simply because they first tried with the not so nicely way. When someone asks politely something, it gets done usually rapidly. When When someone uses project resources to abuse you first, you have to be nice? Why, as a matter of fact, yes. Especially when most people do not consider it abuse. You will find, as you gain more experience in the world, that being nice to people generally gets you further ahead, in the long run, and the golden rule generally applies. Don't confuse non-assertiveness with being nice, of course.
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
On 4 Oct 2001, Sam Hartman wrote: Branden == Branden Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Branden I propose that Michael Bramer be ordered to stop sending Branden automated mails to other developers (regarding the DDTS Branden or any other subject). Branden If he does not comply within 24 hours of ratification of Branden this proposal, he will be expelled from the Debian Branden Project. So, if he is using Debian machines, it seems he may already be violating the Debian machine AUP. Certainly if I were doing something that sent automated mail to people that was not opt-in, I would feel compelled to respond promptly to requests to never send mail to people, regardless of the form of those requests. Have you considered sending to debian-admin or abuse or whatever the appropriate contact is and formally complaining that you are receiving spam from a Debian machine? If debian-admin makes a decision that what he is doing does not violate the AUP or if debian-admin fails to make a decision about a reasonable complaint formally presented to them, I would likely second a GR overturning this (non)determination. Good point.
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
On Thu, 4 Oct 2001, Raphael Hertzog wrote: Le Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 04:26:53PM +0200, Tollef Fog Heen écrivait: * Glenn McGrath | By the same argument i should be able to opt out of recieving mail from the | bug tracking system about any future bugs in the package i maintain, Nope, because part of your duties as a maintainer is to fix those bugs, and/or pass them upstream. Stop being stupid, our goal is to provide a good OS for all our users, this does include having *good* localized content whereever it's possible. For this the maintainer may want to review the translations ... I don't think anyone here is saying we shouldn't translate everything. However, what Michael has done is not official, and is a hack-end-run around the existing tools. Until maintainers can actually make use of the information, it serves no purpose(the emails, not the translations). That's EXACTLY why those mails have started to be sent ! No, they are being sent because Michael wants to push his pet project onto the rest of the project. But yes, the (un)subscription was not very practical so it has been stopped until a better solution is developed. The (un)subscription was stopped? Do you mean the mails were still being sent?
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
Adam Heath wrote: That's EXACTLY why those mails have started to be sent ! No, they are being sent because Michael wants to push his pet project onto the rest of the project. Err... no.. it's because people have requested it. Unfortunately they haven't thought about the consequences too much... Regards, Joey -- Whenever you meet yourself you're in a time loop or in front of a mirror.
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
You will find, as you gain more experience in the world, that being nice to Thanks dad! /sarcasm -- Scott Dier [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ringworld.org/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] History teaches that grave threats to liberty often come in times of urgency, when constitutional rights seem too extravagant to endure. - Justice Thurgood Marshall (1989)
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
On Thu, 4 Oct 2001, Martin Schulze wrote: Adam Heath wrote: That's EXACTLY why those mails have started to be sent ! No, they are being sent because Michael wants to push his pet project onto the rest of the project. Err... no.. it's because people have requested it. Unfortunately they haven't thought about the consequences too much... I never requested it. Yet I got them.
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
On Thu, 4 Oct 2001, Raphael Hertzog wrote: The mails are no more sent until a better subscription mechanism is available. You could have read that several times elsewhere in this thread. Perhaps you missed previous threads. I suggest you go back and read up on them. We have said what we wanted before. It was ignored.
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
On Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 11:12:38AM -0500, Adam Heath wrote: On Thu, 4 Oct 2001, Raphael Hertzog wrote: The mails are no more sent until a better subscription mechanism is available. You could have read that several times elsewhere in this thread. Perhaps you missed previous threads. I suggest you go back and read up on them. We have said what we wanted before. It was ignored. Every time I open a wishlist bug, I say what I want to be implemented. I'm always more polite than you are, and I often get ignored. That's life.
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
On 04/10/01, Sam Hartman wrote: Branden == Branden Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Branden I propose that Michael Bramer be ordered to stop sending Branden automated mails to other developers (regarding the DDTS Branden or any other subject). Branden If he does not comply within 24 hours of ratification of Branden this proposal, he will be expelled from the Debian Branden Project. So, if he is using Debian machines, it seems he may already be violating the Debian machine AUP. Certainly if I were doing something Would you mind explaining which part of the AUP he is exactly violating? I'm not aware of any violation of the AUP. Have you considered sending to debian-admin or abuse or whatever the appropriate contact is and formally complaining that you are receiving spam from a Debian machine? If debian-admin makes a decision that And would you mind trying to explain why exactly this mails are spam and the mail from the BTS with information like The BTS received the following information or from the Upload queue daemons with a content like Your package has been uploaded are not considered as spam? Christian -- Debian Developer (http://www.debian.org) 1024/26CC7853 31E6 A8CA 68FC 284F 7D16 63EC A9E6 67FF 26CC 7853 pgp2oysxZNKPb.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
On Thu, 4 Oct 2001, Sven wrote: I received a german translation of on of my packages description, and after having read it, i communicated with the translator and together we found a better translation. Also i did change the english description following to this discution, as i noticed some things could be improved there also. So, at least something usefull as come of those mails, altough i agree with others that wouldn't know what to do with a japanese or rusian translation. Also, for those who complain, procmail is your friend, ... Please, let no one suggest further that procmail is a solution here. This is tantamount to admitting that these messages *are* equivalent to Spam -- that because the recipient has the technical means to filter out the messages, they have no cause for complaint. But the burden should not be on the recipient to make the system work the way it needs to, it should be on the sender of the messages. I was among those who argued initially that the maintainer needs to be kept in the loop, and should therefore receive the translations. But clearly, there are maintainers who don't share this view, and they are (rightfully) upset that they have to repeatedly ask, for every new package they upload, to be excluded from the notifications. For the sake of the DDTS itself, a technical solution should be found that lets developers opt out if they feel they have nothing to contribute to the translation process, and that lets everyone get back to work. Infighting among developers takes the focus away from both free software and our users, and telling dozens of developers[1] to shove off and use procmail if they don't like the state of things is just the sort of reaction that would encourage infighting. Steve Langasek postmodern programmer [1] I'm assuming that the developers currently participating in these discussions are not the only ones who are displeased with the current state of affairs, as that would be statistically improbable.
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
On Thu, 4 Oct 2001, Steve Langasek wrote: On Thu, 4 Oct 2001, Sven wrote: I received a german translation of on of my packages description, and after having read it, i communicated with the translator and together we found a better translation. Also i did change the english description following to this discution, as i noticed some things could be improved there also. So, at least something usefull as come of those mails, altough i agree with others that wouldn't know what to do with a japanese or rusian translation. Also, for those who complain, procmail is your friend, ... Please, let no one suggest further that procmail is a solution here. This is tantamount to admitting that these messages *are* equivalent to Spam -- that because the recipient has the technical means to filter out the messages, they have no cause for complaint. But the burden should not be on the recipient to make the system work the way it needs to, it should be on the sender of the messages. I was among those who argued initially that the maintainer needs to be kept in the loop, and should therefore receive the translations. But clearly, there are maintainers who don't share this view, and they are (rightfully) upset that they have to repeatedly ask, for every new package they upload, to be excluded from the notifications. For the sake of the DDTS itself, a technical solution should be found that lets developers opt out if they feel they have nothing to contribute to the translation process, and that lets everyone get back to work. Infighting among developers takes the focus away from both free software and our users, and telling dozens of developers[1] to shove off and use procmail if they don't like the state of things is just the sort of reaction that would encourage infighting. opt in opt in opt in opt in opt in opt in opt in opt in opt in opt in opt in
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
On Oct 04, Branden Robinson wrote: I propose that Michael Bramer be ordered to stop sending automated mails to other developers (regarding the DDTS or any other subject). [snipped] I offer the following in nature of a substitute: I propose that Debian developers make reasonable efforts to resolve disputes off-list before proposing general resolutions of a personal nature. I further propose that Debian developers who do not follow this procedure have the entire contents of Emily Post's Modern Etiquette, version 2 or later, permanently imprinted into their brains, said procedure to take place as soon as technology is widely available to do so. I also propose that developers make reasonable efforts to avoid sending unsolicited email to other developers, particularly when the email is generated by an automated process. Nothing in this paragraph shall preclude the sending of bug reports to the Debian bug tracking system or the use of project mailing lists to disseminate information of interest to multiple developers subscribed to said lists. Finally, I propose that people lighten up. To this end, I propose that Rodney King be hired by the project in the capacity of person who should say, 'Can't we all just get along.' in the event of people not lightening up. Mr. King will be given a monthly salary of no less than $1.00 per outstanding bug report of severity normal or higher in all packages of priority standard or higher, pro rata for every day his services are required. In the event Mr. King is unavailable, the DPL or his designee will be empowered to exercise said power without compensation. Mr. King or his substitute may exercise said power by any form of interpersonal communication desired. Mr. King's role may also be fulfilled by a bot on the IRC channel #debian-devel, again without compensation beyond necessary random access memory and processor cycles. Finally, in no event shall anyone who has ever posted a procmail recipe to debian-devel exercise said power. Seconds? :-) Chris -- Chris Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.lordsutch.com/chris/ pgpUMExJx326A.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
On Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 06:37:32PM -0500, Chris Lawrence wrote: I propose that Debian developers make reasonable efforts to resolve disputes off-list before proposing general resolutions of a personal nature. Michael was asked many times, on and off-list, to stop sending unsolicited emails. His response was initially that no one should be able to opt out, because DDTS was good for the Debian Project, therefore his emails must be good (fallacious reasoning -- and if you don't believe me, read the debian-devel list archives). After pressure was applied, he implemented a crude opt-out policy which didn't work -- many maintainers continued to get unsolicited mail from him. You'll note that his automatic mails started over a month ago. My proposed General Resolution was far from the first attempt to get him to stop. He continues to assert on debian-devel that he should have the right to send unsolicited, automatic mails with a default policy of having every maintainer subscribed to his list. Many of the people in support of his actions do not appear to understand that it is the automatic, unsolicited emails with an opt-out (as opposed to opt-in) policy that is being objected to, not the operation of a translation tracking server. Instead, they assert that people who don't like receiving these automatic, unsolicited mails from Michael HATE i18n. I trust it is not necessary to explain why this assertion is utterly fallacious. -- G. Branden Robinson| Debian GNU/Linux | Please do not look directly into [EMAIL PROTECTED] | laser with remaining eye. http://people.debian.org/~branden/ | pgpGe1zKHxp9Y.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
[Please reply to debian-vote] On Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 09:03:20AM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote: So, if he is using Debian machines, it seems he may already be violating the Debian machine AUP. Certainly if I were doing something that sent automated mail to people that was not opt-in, I would feel compelled to respond promptly to requests to never send mail to people, regardless of the form of those requests. Have you considered sending to debian-admin or abuse or whatever the appropriate contact is and formally complaining that you are receiving spam from a Debian machine? If debian-admin makes a decision that what he is doing does not violate the AUP or if debian-admin fails to make a decision about a reasonable complaint formally presented to them, I would likely second a GR overturning this (non)determination. http://www.debian.org/devel/dmup You may not advertise your WWW pages, or cause another person to advertise it, by techniques that would be classified as abuse if they were carried out from a Debian Account. This includes, but is not limited to, bulk emailing and excessive news posting. Such action may be treated under the appropriate DMUP as if it had been done from the Account, or as a violation of this DMUP or both. I request a ruling from the Debian-Admin team on whether Michael Bramer's actions constitute bulk emailing. It is my personal opinion that it does, but that bulk emailing should be accepted under the following circumstances: 1) That the bulk emails be on a subject relevant to the Project; 2) That any such bulk emailing engine be announced at least one week in advance of its activation, to both debian-devel-announce and debian-admin; 3) That the purpose of the bulk emailing engine be specifically defined in the email in step 2; 4) That the location of the subscription list and the script(s) that operate it (or equivalent resources) be announced in the same mail as step 2 above (so that the Debian-Admin team can shut the bulk-emailing process down quickly if it goes haywire); 5) That any and all subscribers to such lists must opt-in; that is, they must notify the operator(s) of these bulk mailers and express an affirmative desire to receive these mails to be subscribed; 6) That the subscription list(s) not be made public (e.g., on the World Wide Web), or distributed to anyone who is not a Debian Developer; 7) That each bulk emailing engine restrict itself to the purpose described at the time of its creation. Comments? -- G. Branden Robinson| Debian GNU/Linux | Music is the brandy of the damned. [EMAIL PROTECTED] | -- George Bernard Shaw http://people.debian.org/~branden/ | pgpuyok7GB6bE.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
Branden Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: He continues to assert on debian-devel that he should have the right to send unsolicited, automatic mails with a default policy of having every maintainer subscribed to his list. How about if instead of this, he sent automated entries to the BTS?
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
On Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 05:32:23PM -0700, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote: Branden Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: He continues to assert on debian-devel that he should have the right to send unsolicited, automatic mails with a default policy of having every maintainer subscribed to his list. How about if instead of this, he sent automated entries to the BTS? That would better, but I still think it's a bad idea, because there is no meaningful way to integrate the translations yet. Once dpkg permits localized package descriptions, it would be appropriate. Until then, I think the DDTS should queue up the translations, and, after dpkg supports localized package descriptions, *ONE* bug report per *SOURCE* package should be filed as a wishlist item. In fact, it would probably be a good idea if all translation updates were queued and sent out at intervals (say, once per month or so) instead of synchronously with the update (unless the package maintainer wanted them that way). -- G. Branden Robinson| It doesn't matter what you are Debian GNU/Linux | doing, emacs is always overkill. [EMAIL PROTECTED] | -- Stephen J. Carpenter http://people.debian.org/~branden/ | pgprfEw6Ic1zl.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
On Thu, 4 Oct 2001 19:26:31 -0500 Branden Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You may not advertise your WWW pages, or cause another person to advertise it, by techniques that would be classified as abuse if they were carried out from a Debian Account. This includes, but is not limited to, bulk emailing and excessive news posting. Such action may be treated under the appropriate DMUP as if it had been done from the Account, or as a violation of this DMUP or both. I request a ruling from the Debian-Admin team on whether Michael Bramer's actions constitute bulk emailing. It is my personal opinion that it does, but that bulk emailing should be accepted under the following circumstances: According to http://www.imc.org/uce-def.html (im sure there are lots of other definitions laying about though) Unsolicited Bulk Email, or UBE, is Internet mail (email) that is sent to a group of recipients who have not requested it. From what i understand your disagreement is purely with who have not requested it part, however messages are no more being sent to a group of recipients than BTS mail. I think it should be considered to be just like mail from the BTS. Glenn
Re: [PROPOSED] Michael Bramer must stop spamming or be expelled
On Thu, 4 Oct 2001, Branden Robinson wrote: I request a ruling from the Debian-Admin team on whether Michael Bramer's actions constitute bulk emailing. We don't generally do rulings.. But, I personally feel that Grisu's actions aren't not extreme enough to warrent a formal punishment. It seems like an honest mistake, in persuit of a good cause to me. Hopefully he can find a solution that is more likable to eveyone, if he hasn't already. Jason
