Re: [libreoffice-design] about wallpapers
Thanks Paulo, great job by the way 2011/2/28 Paulo José : > Hi Daniel, > > http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:LibreOffice-Paulo-Wallpapers-Source.blend.zip > > The sources are Blender files (.blend) and you'll need the latest version of > this software to open them correctly. > One of them contain all 3d meshes and the basic composite. The second file > is the final wallpaper composite, including the 3D meshes of the LIbreOffice > logo. > > ~Paulo > > On 28-02-2011 01:08, Daniel Armando Rodriguez wrote: >> >> f it's possible to get wallpaper[1] sources. > > -- > Paulo José O. Amaro > Computer Science Student > Federal University of São João del-Rei > WebDesigner / Linked Empresa Júnior > Blogger / casatwain.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Escuelas Libres :: Porque la educación es mucho mejor cuando es libre http://www.escuelaslibres.org.ar/ --- Para entrenar, cualquier programa sirve. Para educar, sólo Software Libre. (Federico Heinz) --- -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] about wallpapers
Hi Daniel, http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:LibreOffice-Paulo-Wallpapers-Source.blend.zip The sources are Blender files (.blend) and you'll need the latest version of this software to open them correctly. One of them contain all 3d meshes and the basic composite. The second file is the final wallpaper composite, including the 3D meshes of the LIbreOffice logo. ~Paulo On 28-02-2011 01:08, Daniel Armando Rodriguez wrote: f it's possible to get wallpaper[1] sources. -- Paulo José O. Amaro Computer Science Student Federal University of São João del-Rei WebDesigner / Linked Empresa Júnior Blogger / casatwain.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-design] about wallpapers
Hi guys, I'm currently working on spanish localization team and would like to ask if it's possible to get wallpaper[1] sources. regards [1] http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/Wallpapers --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ Escuelas Libres :: Porque la educación es mucho mejor cuando es libre http://www.escuelaslibres.org.ar/ --- Para entrenar, cualquier programa sirve. Para educar, sólo Software Libre. (Federico Heinz) --- -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] You've got hate-mail
Le 2011-02-27 12:16, Nik a écrit : Hi Marc, all, On 2/24/2011 2:58 AM, Marc Paré wrote: Le 2011-02-23 10:01, Nik a écrit : Do we have a Sean Parsons on this list? -Nik Ahem ... I think using "Hate mail" is a little too strong. This would make it impossible for this individual to join our team(s) if he decided to join and to contribute or submit proposals. It must just be my abrupt sense of humour, which is often lost-in-translation in Email Having said that, I don't think we can afford to be "precious" about strong words in the subject of this email when some stronger words are in question in this article. Let's just say that he had his reasons for posting and let's take the high road and offer him a place here where he could be part of the group rather than being on the outside. This is, IMHO, a better approach to take even. This is not the first or last time we will be criticised. Marc, you can take the moral high-road if you prefer. I'd rather get to the heart of the problem. And it *IS* a problem. It's not just feedback, it's not just criticism, Designers are good at handling both. We receive it here daily. This is shameless self-promotion at the cost of a community while hiding behind that same community's generosity. If this were some member of the public with no knowledge of our workings, It wouldn't phase me. But instead, we have a member of our community, who, instead of discussing it here with us and forging a better result, chose instead to publicise his lack of support due to a number of /subjective/ Design opinions. And mentioned us *explicitly*. Lots of people are on this list, most of them for a good reason: they want to further our cause Some are on it for other reasons: they want their Designs approved or else they will whine on the internet until someone listens. Look it's clear Sean has a defense-team already protecting his right to complain despite the damage it would do to us as a team. So instead, I'll aim this generally at everyone on this list; If you REALLY care about this project, and something doesn't go the way you'd like, just talk it out here. Or Email privately. *Anyone writing open letters to us on the internet knows full-well that it is as likely to be picked up by the press as it is our team.* And anyone interested in voicing their opinion at the expense of our team, isn't in it to benefit us at all. Just themselves. You can paint me as the devil, but I've disagreed with plenty of choices made here, but not once have I been tempted to complain about that elsewhere. It's the difference between a frank discussion and idle gossip. -Nik Thanks for the reply and your thoughts. I would agree with you if this were a recurrent problem with this individual. However, we should just give it all the benefit of the doubt and say that it may have been brought on by an over-exuberance of opinion in a public forum. It's a shame it happened this way. People all have the right to express themselves where ever and however they want. Sometimes people will just make mistakes and learn from it. I am sure that if this were to re-occur often, unfortunately, this member would find it difficult to work on our teams. Let's just say that it was "un faux pas" and just go on from there. I am sure we can all work together cooperatively. Cheers Marc -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Re: [libreoffice-design] Motif draft
Hi Bernhard, hi Nik, all! I'd like to second Bernhard's "Thank you!", since you take care of this topic! Am Sonntag, den 27.02.2011, 22:36 +0100 schrieb Bernhard Dippold: [...] > Nikash Singh wrote: > > [...] > > *What we need now is ideas, about the concept/theme/perception that > > should be communicated in the motif. > > If you think visually feel free to add graphic ideas, but right now, > > text is more useful before pen goes to paper. > > One-word concepts would be just as useful as descriptive text. At the moment, I'm thinking about both a "large scale motif", and a "details motif" (to be used with stock photographs or within rather plain areas). I've started to play with Inkscape, but I lack the skills to provide a reasonable mockup ... maybe a bit later. Concerning the details motif - I'm still thinking about the triangles that equal the document symbol edge. Those triangles can form a repeating pattern that is altered by using filled triangles and "randomly positioned" triangle contours. The pattern can be used positively (e.g. hiding parts of the background), or negatively (e.g. showing parts of a otherwise hidden background element). The pattern may also be adapted by applying a color / transparency gradient, or by removing some triangles to e.g. realize some kind of "wave". The latter one can also be achieved/emphasized by non-homogeneous color for the pattern. Okay, I'll try to come up with some graphics within the next days ... [... skipping some very good points by Bernhard and others, because of lack of time ...] > Same from my side - we should be open to any idea (even if I mention > that I already start to compare and combine the visual examples with > our present branding - I'll try to avoid this...) > > What we should add to the motif page are the examples used already: > > - the single triangle (like the bullet points on the website) > - the grouped fading triangles in the left upper and right lower corner > (from the start center) > - Paulo's idea of five colored triangles sticked together in a vertical row > (on his light banners in the donate button) > - outer border with rounded corners and cut-off right upper corner > (don't know if this really qualifys as motif, but it has an impact on the >general visual impression) > ... any others? Thanks for the nice collection - "close to motif" had been used for the presentation template. The outline of the triangles in the background ... http://luxate.blogspot.com/2010/10/libreoffice-presentation-template-first.html There is one item which is even less a motiv, but repeated throughout many of the graphics for the software: a non-symmetrical circular color gradient, and some linear gradients in the "header" and "footer". An early version: http://luxate.blogspot.com/2010/11/libreoffice-33-artwork-improvements.html Cheers, Christoph -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Funding Challenge Publisher Advertisement (was: Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [libreoffice-design] LibO logo)
Hi all, just for the record: I've added the (simple) advertisement to the wiki. For details, please see below ... Here is the file: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:LibreOffice_Advertisement_ThankYouDonors_German.svg Here is the link from within the wiki page: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/FoundationChallenge#Required_Items Again, sorry for missing the time to collect any further feedback. It was just impossible to do when having only 2,5 hours :-\ Cheers, Christoph Am Samstag, den 26.02.2011, 00:48 +0100 schrieb Christoph Noack: > Ah, by the way, yesterday I created the publisher advertisement for > the > foundation challenge. So sorry for being so silent, but it has been > "urgently requested" and so it was impossible to me to go through the > normal "review" on the lists. I'll add this to the wiki during the > weekend. In this advertisement, I've tried to use Nik's initial > proposal > for a new motif - a topic that also should get our attention. I hope > for > some more time on Sunday :-\ -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-design] Re: [libreoffice-marketing] LO, TDF - rollup design
Hi Kami! CCing the Design List as well. Just for information - discussion should take place on the marketing list, please. Am Samstag, den 26.02.2011, 13:05 +0100 schrieb Kálmán „KAMI” Szalai: > Hi! > > For a rollup design I would like use the LO, TDF text and icon graphic. Cool :-) > The size of medium is 85(W)x200(H), what is the best arrange for it? Just to be sure - we talk about "cm" instead of "px", or? > I > wanted to increase the site of icon and put on to LibreOffice text but I > don't know if it hurt the branding guide. It is impossible to keep the > current layout on portait page orientation. I plan to use vector elemnts > for backround, the LibreOffice icon and the LO, TDF text. DO you have > advice for me, or do we have a design for this layout? We have some kind of design for that. Some time ago, I've created this for the installer - this may come close: http://luxate.blogspot.com/2010/11/libreoffice-33-artwork-improvements_18.html The same design had been used at the FOSDEM - Cor used it to print the small banners you can (hardly) see here: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_9MZR46ZEuS8/TU1x2rqLvtI/Au0/ghh8jVhnEOI/s1600/P1040901.JPG But there have been improvements - Paulo improved the large icon which should be used in this case. Just to get an impression (the left one, but I missed some pixel alignment so it appears a bit blurry): http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_9MZR46ZEuS8/TURcYGZPRkI/AuE/si2R_93DT_M/s1600/New256pxIcons.png Would this combination help? If yes, then we might put together something for you ... if you like. Cheers, Christoph -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-design] Onscreen Revision naming convention change
I've been carefully running around the several groups created for Libre and snooping here & there for where I might be most effective to jump in and lend assistance. I want to learn the app a little better first, but here's my first serious suggestion that should be very easy to implement. Please, please, please, PLEASE, when the rev changes, USE THE NEW REV in the installer and installation pages, NOT just "3.3" when it's 3.3.1! Just like OO.o, there is no way to tell whether you are installing 3.3.1 or 3.3.0 and as more upgrades become available, the situation will get worse, just like with OO.o. I forgot and worried that I hit a wrong key and was installing 3.3.0 and not 3.3.1 today! I had to go through the complete installation until I could open one of the apps and check Help to see what version of the program I'd installed. The Help menu is the ONLY place the revisin shows up! Why can't the revision level be specified on the installer pages? Seems simple enough to implement. I can agree with calling it Version 3 period, but I should also be able to see 3.3.1 is being installed somewhere early on in the install process. The "3.3.1" shows in the installer filename but you don't see it again until after the install completes and you can open one of the apps and check Help About. THEN, after the install, I have to go around and make sure the old Libre shortcuts go to 3.3.1 or did a path change and only the newly placed icon works? Same goes for the Windows Programs List; add the stupid "... .1" there and to the desktop icon, too. In fact, I'd also like to see 3.3.1 in the Splash Screen that starts with the program, too. That way as soon as it starts up I'll know exactly what I opened. I often leave the old revs in place and specify new locations for future upgrades, just so I can easily make comparisons between the revs, when the changes are substantial. I haven't yet looked for the Issues listing but will shortly. My participation will depend on whether Libres uses the same one OO.o did or not. If it does, I won't be participating in the Issues listings. KUDOS on fixing several of the long-standing bugs and required work-arounds that OO.o had. I'd report the list of them periodically, several people would pipe in with a "yeah, that's right!" but nothing was ever done to correct them, not even the ones that were there in rev 1. Libre appears to be THE app to follow; looking forward to assisting in the near future. Regards, Twayne` -- Newsgroups are great places to get assistance. But always verify important information with other sources to be certain you have a clear understanding of it and that it is accurate. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[libreoffice-design] Re: Re: [libreoffice-design] Motif draft
Hi NIk, all, I'm reading all you motif mails, but I didn't manage to comment them. Thanks for starting this initiative - I think it's tightly related to the main topic we postponed until the release of LibO 3.3.0: What are our goals and aims as community and what do we want to achieve with our branding? Nikash Singh wrote: > [...] > *What we need now is ideas, about the concept/theme/perception that > should be communicated in the motif. > If you think visually feel free to add graphic ideas, but right now, > text is more useful before pen goes to paper. > One-word concepts would be just as useful as descriptive text. If we want to look at a utopia world, I would like to see a motif that covers - freedom (freedom of chioce, a free file format, freedom from computer and Internet quality, freedom to be used on every platform, freedom to be used by people without a large monetary budget ...) - openness (open to all people by providing the freedom above, open to impaired people, open for improvements by free and proprietary additions, open for new single contributors as well as new language or platform teams, with an open mind and an open heart...) - security (secure to be readable in future times, secure from exploited leaks and bugs - or in a more realistic way: a security concept that closes all these issues in a very fast way, secure to be worked on in future - at least with the ability for everybody to keep on improving it ...) - individuality (individual themes, personal choice of extensions, support on individual strategies to use the office suite - indiviualized start center ...) - professionalism (professional quality, a reasonable choice for business and administrative / governmental usage, professional look and feel, professional way to handle alternative products ...) There must be more such points, so add your thoughts too... > [...] > Some feedback on the 2 proposals so far; > > > On 2/27/2011 12:12 PM, Daniel Merker wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Finally registered with the wiki and added my file for the motif discussion: > > > > http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Alternate_Logo.svg > > > > -Daniel Merker > > Hi Tobias and Daniel, > I've added your proposals to the wiki page; > http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif > > My initial feedback would be that the designs are somewhat visually > overpowering themselves and will compete with the contents for attention. > The motif will need to be something that provides a "canvas" on which > other elements can be placed. It might provide the basic feeling for the overall graphical impression. Perhaps it could be small and repetitive or larger and structurizing the design. > It is a support element, and so, may need to be somewhat less > "attention-grabbing". +1 > But these are just suggestions, not instructions. Same from my side - we should be open to any idea (even if I mention that I already start to compare and combine the visual examples with our present branding - I'll try to avoid this...) What we should add to the motif page are the examples used already: - the single triangle (like the bullet points on the website) - the grouped fading triangles in the left upper and right lower corner (from the start center) - Paulo's idea of five colored triangles sticked together in a vertical row (on his light banners in the donate button) - outer border with rounded corners and cut-off right upper corner (don't know if this really qualifys as motif, but it has an impact on the general visual impression) ... any others? Best regards Bernhard -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] You've got hate-mail
Hi Marc, all, On 2/24/2011 2:58 AM, Marc Paré wrote: Le 2011-02-23 10:01, Nik a écrit : Do we have a Sean Parsons on this list? -Nik Ahem ... I think using "Hate mail" is a little too strong. This would make it impossible for this individual to join our team(s) if he decided to join and to contribute or submit proposals. It must just be my abrupt sense of humour, which is often lost-in-translation in Email Having said that, I don't think we can afford to be "precious" about strong words in the subject of this email when some stronger words are in question in this article. Let's just say that he had his reasons for posting and let's take the high road and offer him a place here where he could be part of the group rather than being on the outside. This is, IMHO, a better approach to take even. This is not the first or last time we will be criticised. Marc, you can take the moral high-road if you prefer. I'd rather get to the heart of the problem. And it *IS* a problem. It's not just feedback, it's not just criticism, Designers are good at handling both. We receive it here daily. This is shameless self-promotion at the cost of a community while hiding behind that same community's generosity. If this were some member of the public with no knowledge of our workings, It wouldn't phase me. But instead, we have a member of our community, who, instead of discussing it here with us and forging a better result, chose instead to publicise his lack of support due to a number of /subjective/ Design opinions. And mentioned us *explicitly*. Lots of people are on this list, most of them for a good reason: they want to further our cause Some are on it for other reasons: they want their Designs approved or else they will whine on the internet until someone listens. Look it's clear Sean has a defense-team already protecting his right to complain despite the damage it would do to us as a team. So instead, I'll aim this generally at everyone on this list; If you REALLY care about this project, and something doesn't go the way you'd like, just talk it out here. Or Email privately. *Anyone writing open letters to us on the internet knows full-well that it is as likely to be picked up by the press as it is our team.* And anyone interested in voicing their opinion at the expense of our team, isn't in it to benefit us at all. Just themselves. You can paint me as the devil, but I've disagreed with plenty of choices made here, but not once have I been tempted to complain about that elsewhere. It's the difference between a frank discussion and idle gossip. -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Motif draft
Hi Daniel, Tobias and anyone else keeping track of this activity, I'm sorry about the lapse in communication and the incorrect deadlines. I've been asked to extend the "shelf-life" of this project, so I have; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif A new work schedule can be found on the above page. *We are in the Brainstorming session, which will end in another 7 days: on Sunday. *What we need now is ideas, about the concept/theme/perception that should be communicated in the motif. If you think visually feel free to add graphic ideas, but right now, text is more useful before pen goes to paper. One-word concepts would be just as useful as descriptive text. The motif-Design task will end on Sunday 13th March, and will be finalised by Thursday 17th March. It will go to a community vote to determine the preferred motif. ... Some feedback on the 2 proposals so far; On 2/27/2011 12:12 PM, Daniel Merker wrote: Hi, Finally registered with the wiki and added my file for the motif discussion: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Alternate_Logo.svg -Daniel Merker Hi Tobias and Daniel, I've added your proposals to the wiki page; http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Motif My initial feedback would be that the designs are somewhat visually overpowering themselves and will compete with the contents for attention. The motif will need to be something that provides a "canvas" on which other elements can be placed. It is a support element, and so, may need to be somewhat less "attention-grabbing". But these are just suggestions, not instructions. I'm sorry I can't be more helpful by making a graphic example of what I mean, I just want to wait until the brainstorming phase is complete first and we have a strong "theme/idea/perception" before spending time making actual proposals. Thanks heaps for getting the ball rolling with some visual ideas. If I've missed anyone's feedback on this matter so far, just let me know and I'll add it to the Motif page. -Nik -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] ligatures in the logo [was: LibO logo]
> > RGB ES schrieb: > > I can see a problem on this discussion: a sans serif "i" should not >> have, ehr, serifs... >> > True, but ligatures per se are not serifs. If they look like a serif then there's something wrong. I asked a friend of mine who studies design to have a look at that issue, and she told me that many sans serif fonts do indeed have ffi ligatures, just as Bernhard said. She also had another idea, which I'll also give a try: http://tinyurl.com/6x7fyg7 Only on serif fonts it is ok to link the f and the i (and to make the >> f "grab" the dot from the i), but not on sans serif or grotesque >> fonts. >> > I don't think that's correct. Ligatures are just a way to make the text look more even and to avoid tiny gaps and collisions. Have a look at the original logo: the "i" is shifted to the right (it has a larger distance from the second f than the first two f's). This creates an ugly white gap in between the f and the i. To avoid that, one shifts the i to the left. Without ligature (which just means: changing individual letters) both the dot on the i as well as the bar on the f collide with the other letter. Thus, one needs ligatures. (Sorry if I'm repeating stuff you already said, Bernhard. You're right with what you say.) @Bernhard: Do you mean the bow on the first f should also point towards the middle of the i? Or just bend exactly the same way the second f does? I raised the dot because I thought it looked better (I didn't think much about that, to be honest). I guess I wanted to avoid bending the f bow too much - if you leave the dot where it was and still want the f bow to point towards it, you have to bend it very strongly which doesn't look good. Therefore I centerd it on the line which is also the baseline of the first f's bow tip (see the detail images). I'll give above said things a try later and reply again when I'm done. Greetings, Joey -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] "Challenge Continues"-Banner
hi the word cloud thing is a bit tricky... if it is well readable, it doesn't look very good, and if it looks good you can't really read it^^ i tried to have a a bit of both in the new version. http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Libo-challengecontinues-banner-by-tobias.png the space between the words is bigger now, and different for every word. this improves the "word cloud impression" a bit, but it is still readable. i hope the space between "donate now" and the document symbol is big enough now;) Am Sonntag, den 27.02.2011, 00:38 +0100 schrieb Bernhard Dippold: > Tobias Bernard schrieb: > > ok, i've reworked the banner, trying to consider all your suggestions, > > but i didn't understand what's wrong with the spacing (point one in the > > guidelines) > > The distance of the logo (in your case the symbol at the bottom of the > banner) to every graphical element outside the logo shouldn't be less > than half the width of the symbol. > > As the symbol reached nearly the borders of the banner, elements put > beside the banner could have compromised the symbol - reducing the > visual impression we want to achieve with our logo and it's elements. > > But in your new version (I add the link again: > http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Libo-challengecontinues-banner-by-tobias.png) > > this is much better! Only the vertical distance especially to the > "Donate now!" badge is a bit small. > > > > > if you have futher suggestions, just tell me ;) > > > The word cloud is much easier to read :-) > > Unfortunately this reduces the impression of a word cloud a bit. Did you > try to have a bit more space between the single words? > > I don't know, if this works and stays readable - perhaps with more > different font sizes, using green and large font for one word only, some > smaller and green, some larger and grey? > > Just an idea - might be totally wrong... > > Best regards > > Bernhard > > >>> > >>> ps: why does the the svg file have such an ugly preview? > > The preview is better than none as we had it on the OOo wiki ;-) > > But honestly I don't know. Some SVG images are rendered well, Some other > have problems with text and underlying graphics, some don't show the SVG > at all. Turning the text into path helps sometimes, but this is no > option for text we probably want to modify / translate later on. > -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] "Challenge Continues"-Banner
Le 2011-02-26 16:40, Tobias Bernard a écrit : hi i don't know if we have enough fundraising banners yet, but here's one more;) http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Libo-challengecontinues-banner-by-tobias.png http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Libo-banner-challenge-continues.svg greetings tobias ps: why does the the svg file have such an ugly preview? Looks great! It would be nice to have this approved once it is accepted. +1 Marc -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
