Re: [libreoffice-design] The future of design suggestions
Hi all, I don't have enough time, so anybody step in... Bernhard Dippold schrieb: [...] Moved the page to the Design area: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/UI_Elements and added the Design category. Please play with the page, add your ideas, categorize and sort them, so we can discuss the next steps based on some examples. ... replace my example vertical tabs with real data - there have been several mockups mentioned here on the list containing this element. ... start a new thread pointing everybody to this new wiki page (at the moment buried in the deepest area of a thread on much more topics than just this one). ... link to the page from different areas in the wiki (whiteboard?, design kick-off?, how to contribute page - needs to be worked on too) Best regards Bernhard -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] The future of design suggestions
Hi Bernhard Let's go with your proposal about moving it out of your user page - we need to do something quickly before we lose interest from any the contributors. Cheers Phil Jackso On 7/8/2011 9:32 AM, Bernhard Dippold wrote: Hi Mirek, all Mirek M. schrieb: Hi Bernhard, 2011/7/5 Bernhard Dippoldbernh...@familie-dippold.at [...] I started with some thoughts on the single UI elements table. Here is the very first result: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Bedipp/UI_Elements A table with different fields containing UI elements, a thumbnail image, name and date of upload, last activity, description, other implementations, advantages and disadvantages and finally the priority (or status of implementation). Please don't hesitate to comment and work on this table, find superfluous or lacking columns, add your own ideas - I already have a table of some of my ideas on http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Mirek2#Citrus_UI : should I add all the ideas to the table? My idea is to collect all the different elements in one table, leading to collaborative work on the single element instead of commenting a full mockup with a multitude of UI changes. So yes, I'd like to see all of the elements on your page added to the table. We'll have to split the table (quite soon, I hope) in different parts representing different areas of the UI, but similar ideas by several team members could be discussed together and integrated in a final position - leading to a specification and a proposal to the developers. I'm assuming that would overflow the table, Not really - as the table is sortable, an increasing number of entries could be handled by some hierarchical ordering or any other sophisticated structure. especially when the Description column is so small, This column should only contain a very short description of the feature - the details should stay on your page linked from the entry. but which features do I add then? Or should I just add a link to my table? It just my personal idea, so it might be totally wrong. But I want to see all the proposed features listed in the table - until they have been aggregated to our team's specifications and hack proposals. If there are team members interested in such a more or less structured approach to the task , I'd move the page out of my user space. If not, I just drop it... Best regards Bernhard -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] The future of design suggestions
Hi Bernhard, 2011/7/5 Bernhard Dippold bernh...@familie-dippold.at Hi all, Bernhard Dippold schrieb: Hi Björn, all Björn Balasz wrote: Hi Bernhard, all, Am Dienstag, 21. Juni 2011, 23:09:33 schrieb Bernhard Dippold: [...] I'd start with a gallery of the already presented mockups (perhaps with a short description of their features) and then go through this gallery and collect the single features for another gallery of UI elements / positions / ideas as a basic tool for our overall concept. I don't know if a gallery or a table would fit our needs better. While a gallery is easier to create and maintain, a table allows to add more fields than just one caption below each image. With a gallery we probably need to go to the gallery entry's wiki pages to get the necessary information. A table (containing mid-size images in one of their columns) would allow to add the features contained in the mockup, the rationale for each specific design element (if existing) and many more information. On the other hand it's harder to write than just to the gallery. Could you take care of this? Important to me seems to be that commitments are licenced correctly and allow to show mocks, designs and even prototypes at the same time. Don't know which technical solution is best for this... I can try to - but I'd really appreciate someone else to step in (too). My time is limited, but that's probably the same for each of our team members. I started with some thoughts on the single UI elements table. Here is the very first result: http://wiki.**documentfoundation.org/User:**Bedipp/UI_Elementshttp://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Bedipp/UI_Elements A table with different fields containing UI elements, a thumbnail image, name and date of upload, last activity, description, other implementations, advantages and disadvantages and finally the priority (or status of implementation). Please don't hesitate to comment and work on this table, find superfluous or lacking columns, add your own ideas - I already have a table of some of my ideas on http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Mirek2#Citrus_UI : should I add all the ideas to the table? I'm assuming that would overflow the table, especially when the Description column is so small, but which features do I add then? Or should I just add a link to my table? Thanks. But most important: discuss it here. If there will be positive feedback I'll move this page out of my personal page. Best regards Bernhard -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+help@global.**libreoffice.orgdesign%2bh...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.**documentfoundation.org/** Netiquette http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.**libreoffice.org/global/design/http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] The future of design suggestions
Hi all, Bernhard Dippold schrieb: Hi Björn, all Björn Balasz wrote: Hi Bernhard, all, Am Dienstag, 21. Juni 2011, 23:09:33 schrieb Bernhard Dippold: [...] I'd start with a gallery of the already presented mockups (perhaps with a short description of their features) and then go through this gallery and collect the single features for another gallery of UI elements / positions / ideas as a basic tool for our overall concept. I don't know if a gallery or a table would fit our needs better. While a gallery is easier to create and maintain, a table allows to add more fields than just one caption below each image. With a gallery we probably need to go to the gallery entry's wiki pages to get the necessary information. A table (containing mid-size images in one of their columns) would allow to add the features contained in the mockup, the rationale for each specific design element (if existing) and many more information. On the other hand it's harder to write than just to the gallery. Could you take care of this? Important to me seems to be that commitments are licenced correctly and allow to show mocks, designs and even prototypes at the same time. Don't know which technical solution is best for this... I can try to - but I'd really appreciate someone else to step in (too). My time is limited, but that's probably the same for each of our team members. I started with some thoughts on the single UI elements table. Here is the very first result: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Bedipp/UI_Elements A table with different fields containing UI elements, a thumbnail image, name and date of upload, last activity, description, other implementations, advantages and disadvantages and finally the priority (or status of implementation). Please don't hesitate to comment and work on this table, find superfluous or lacking columns, add your own ideas - But most important: discuss it here. If there will be positive feedback I'll move this page out of my personal page. Best regards Bernhard -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: Re: [libreoffice-design] The future of design suggestions
Hi Bernhard, all, Am Dienstag, 21. Juni 2011, 23:09:33 schrieb Bernhard Dippold: [...] This is a Free Software Project. As a design team, we will not need to convince ourselves about this need to change the GUI (we all agree on that), we will need to convince the people actually doing (and financing) it - the developers and the companies paying them. Even if a large group of developers are paid by companies, there is another group coding on their own. What we need are at least a few developers interested in UI design. If we can convince them, our ideas will become code and finally find their way into the product. But if we can convince more than just a few developers by showing the needs our users to the entire community, this would get more developers interested and involved... I am argueing towards a single position we, the UI team needs to come up with. This position needs to shared by the whole team, paid and voluntary developers! [...] I'd start with a gallery of the already presented mockups (perhaps with a short description of their features) and then go through this gallery and collect the single features for another gallery of UI elements / positions / ideas as a basic tool for our overall concept. I don't know if a gallery or a table would fit our needs better. While a gallery is easier to create and maintain, a table allows to add more fields than just one caption below each image. With a gallery we probably need to go to the gallery entry's wiki pages to get the necessary information. A table (containing mid-size images in one of their columns) would allow to add the features contained in the mockup, the rationale for each specific design element (if existing) and many more information. On the other hand it's harder to write than just to the gallery. Could you take care of this? Important to me seems to be that commitments are licenced correctly and allow to show mocks, designs and even prototypes at the same time. Don't know which technical solution is best for this... Best, Björn -- Voluntary Open Source Usability: http://www.OpenUsability.org Commercial Open Source Usability: http://www.OpenSource-Usability-Labs.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: Re: [libreoffice-design] The future of design suggestions
Hi Steve, Am Mittwoch, 22. Juni 2011, 09:22:33 schrieb Steve Edmonds: [...] I also think it is important to be able to provide the whole package, complete solution, (all details) in an overall structured way and not haphazard. For a developer to pick it up and commit many hours all questions need to be answered in a specification. i.e. how will every menu in every LO component function. Discussion here is centered on writer and trying to conserve height but calc is mentioned as preferring wide to tall space. May be a framework can be created, like a table, with the various LO components (writer, calc, etc.) across and the various UI elements down. When all the cells are filled and how the elements work, inter-reaction is seen and agreement is made then developers can be considered. The developers may then need to refine this due to code or function needs (you can't do that because... but may be like this) Then when all in agreement the coding can be implemented. Please do not mix up two distinct steps. 1. We need to collect the ideas. This is what this thread is about (as I understand it) 2. Extract the ideas behind the ideas and create something developers can work with. We have not even adressed this topic, as no major UI changes will take place at the moment, because developers are on totally different tasks (refactoring code to be able to change the UI in future). Let us talk about step 2 once we have a working solution for step 1 - or noone will be able to follow the discussions anymore... :) Best, Björn -- Voluntary Open Source Usability: http://www.OpenUsability.org Commercial Open Source Usability: http://www.OpenSource-Usability-Labs.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[libreoffice-design] Re: [libreoffice-design] The future of design suggestions
Hi Björn, all Björn Balasz wrote: Hi Bernhard, all, Am Dienstag, 21. Juni 2011, 23:09:33 schrieb Bernhard Dippold: [...] This is a Free Software Project. As a design team, we will not need to convince ourselves about this need to change the GUI (we all agree on that), we will need to convince the people actually doing (and financing) it - the developers and the companies paying them. [...] if we can convince more than just a few developers by showing the needs our users to the entire community, this would get more developers interested and involved... I am argueing towards a single position we, the UI team needs to come up with. This position needs to shared by the whole team, paid and voluntary developers! In a community of volunteers shared positions by all team members are hard to establish, especially if you try to integrate designers and developers in one team. But your right: This needs to be our goal. And this will only be able to reached by clear (user) data and convincing scepticists by good and valid arguments. [...] I'd start with a gallery of the already presented mockups (perhaps with a short description of their features) and then go through this gallery and collect the single features for another gallery of UI elements / positions / ideas as a basic tool for our overall concept. I don't know if a gallery or a table would fit our needs better. While a gallery is easier to create and maintain, a table allows to add more fields than just one caption below each image. With a gallery we probably need to go to the gallery entry's wiki pages to get the necessary information. A table (containing mid-size images in one of their columns) would allow to add the features contained in the mockup, the rationale for each specific design element (if existing) and many more information. On the other hand it's harder to write than just to the gallery. Could you take care of this? Important to me seems to be that commitments are licenced correctly and allow to show mocks, designs and even prototypes at the same time. Don't know which technical solution is best for this... I can try to - but I'd really appreciate someone else to step in (too). My time is limited, but that's probably the same for each of our tema members. Best regards Bernhard -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] The future of design suggestions
Hi Steve On Thu, 2011-06-23 at 06:58 +1200, Steve Edmonds wrote: Hi Planas. On 22/06/11 10:05 AM, planas wrote: Hi all, On Tue, 2011-06-21 at 23:09 +0200, Bernhard Dippold wrote: Hi Björn, all Björn Balazs schrieb: Hi all, I am a little unsatisfied with the amount of individual threads going into the direction of: We need a new interface for LibreOffice - and it needs to look linke this For me they show the high interest of our team members in the UI design area. But you're totally right: We need to integrate the different proposals in general directions for UI improvements. This is a Free Software Project. As a design team, we will not need to convince ourselves about this need to change the GUI (we all agree on that), we will need to convince the people actually doing (and financing) it - the developers and the companies paying them. Even if a large group of developers are paid by companies, there is another group coding on their own. What we need are at least a few developers interested in UI design. If we can convince them, our ideas will become code and finally find their way into the product. But if we can convince more than just a few developers by showing the needs our users to the entire community, this would get more developers interested and involved... [... we should never argue about personal opinions ...] So, how can we make this more productive? Ideas are good, visualisations are even better. So let us find a way to not comment on these, but to collect them with the goal of easy comparision with eachother. A gallary of ideas and visualisations of the future LibO. A gallery is great - but I'd rather think of a gallery of single UI improvements (with visualizations from different mockups) than of a gallery of the different mockups. If several mockups contain sidepanes, similar context menus or context sensitive tools, these should be combined as features, based on user data (already existing or new to be reached for) and expert statements, decided on their positive/negative impacts and recommended for implementation based on a specification containing all the necessary information for the developers. We should then try to extract the dimensions these ideas differ on. Knowing these we can then again use user-centric methodologies to have the users decide about what they like. Of course user feedback is the most important quality measurement for UI modifications. But based on the user's likings it stays to us to decide which feature should be implemented in which way: There are more than design aspects to consider (marketing, present user base, documentation, coding effort, interdependency with other areas of the product ...), users can't have in mind. With this data we will have much less trouble to convince the code-sponsors to go into a certain direction. That's true - real user data are a very good argument to convince marketing and development ... So - the main point I am argueing for is a gallery of interface ideas. Easy to compare and on one spot. What do you think about this? +1 I'd start with a gallery of the already presented mockups (perhaps with a short description of their features) and then go through this gallery and collect the single features for another gallery of UI elements / positions / ideas as a basic tool for our overall concept. I don't know if a gallery or a table would fit our needs better. While a gallery is easier to create and maintain, a table allows to add more fields than just one caption below each image. With a gallery we probably need to go to the gallery entry's wiki pages to get the necessary information. A table (containing mid-size images in one of their columns) would allow to add the features contained in the mockup, the rationale for each specific design element (if existing) and many more information. On the other hand it's harder to write than just to the gallery. Best regards Bernhard -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted Could we circulate the link to other LO lists and possibly post it on the LO site for users to access? I was thinking of broadening our answer base. I think you will have roughly three groups: those who prefer an improved version of the current UI but with limited graphical changes; those who prefer a more distinctive UI (there may be a few major groups here); and finally those who are indifferent about the exact look as long as it meets certain goals such being customizable, well organized. Personally, I am most in the last group of being more
Re: Re: [libreoffice-design] The future of design suggestions
Am Montag, 20. Juni 2011, 22:43:26 schrieb Bernhard Dippold: We should try to keep as many resources as possible in the LibreOffice/TDF infrastructure. [...] With our Visual Elements page http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Visual_Elements we already use images linked to other wiki pages than the image files, so this might be a starting point... +1 Best, Björn -- Voluntary Open Source Usability: http://www.OpenUsability.org Commercial Open Source Usability: http://www.OpenSource-Usability-Labs.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] The future of design suggestions
Hi All. On 22/06/11 9:09 AM, Bernhard Dippold wrote: Hi Björn, all Björn Balazs schrieb: Hi all, I am a little unsatisfied with the amount of individual threads going into the direction of: We need a new interface for LibreOffice - and it needs to look linke this For me they show the high interest of our team members in the UI design area. But you're totally right: We need to integrate the different proposals in general directions for UI improvements. This is a Free Software Project. As a design team, we will not need to convince ourselves about this need to change the GUI (we all agree on that), we will need to convince the people actually doing (and financing) it - the developers and the companies paying them. Even if a large group of developers are paid by companies, there is another group coding on their own. What we need are at least a few developers interested in UI design. If we can convince them, our ideas will become code and finally find their way into the product. But if we can convince more than just a few developers by showing the needs our users to the entire community, this would get more developers interested and involved... [... we should never argue about personal opinions ...] So, how can we make this more productive? Ideas are good, visualisations are even better. So let us find a way to not comment on these, but to collect them with the goal of easy comparision with eachother. A gallary of ideas and visualisations of the future LibO. A gallery is great - but I'd rather think of a gallery of single UI improvements (with visualizations from different mockups) than of a gallery of the different mockups. If several mockups contain sidepanes, similar context menus or context sensitive tools, these should be combined as features, based on user data (already existing or new to be reached for) and expert statements, decided on their positive/negative impacts and recommended for implementation based on a specification containing all the necessary information for the developers. We should then try to extract the dimensions these ideas differ on. Knowing these we can then again use user-centric methodologies to have the users decide about what they like. Of course user feedback is the most important quality measurement for UI modifications. But based on the user's likings it stays to us to decide which feature should be implemented in which way: There are more than design aspects to consider (marketing, present user base, documentation, coding effort, interdependency with other areas of the product ...), users can't have in mind. With this data we will have much less trouble to convince the code-sponsors to go into a certain direction. That's true - real user data are a very good argument to convince marketing and development ... So - the main point I am argueing for is a gallery of interface ideas. Easy to compare and on one spot. What do you think about this? +1 I'd start with a gallery of the already presented mockups (perhaps with a short description of their features) and then go through this gallery and collect the single features for another gallery of UI elements / positions / ideas as a basic tool for our overall concept. I don't know if a gallery or a table would fit our needs better. While a gallery is easier to create and maintain, a table allows to add more fields than just one caption below each image. With a gallery we probably need to go to the gallery entry's wiki pages to get the necessary information. A table (containing mid-size images in one of their columns) would allow to add the features contained in the mockup, the rationale for each specific design element (if existing) and many more information. On the other hand it's harder to write than just to the gallery. Best regards Bernhard I also think it is important to be able to provide the whole package, complete solution, (all details) in an overall structured way and not haphazard. For a developer to pick it up and commit many hours all questions need to be answered in a specification. i.e. how will every menu in every LO component function. Discussion here is centered on writer and trying to conserve height but calc is mentioned as preferring wide to tall space. May be a framework can be created, like a table, with the various LO components (writer, calc, etc.) across and the various UI elements down. When all the cells are filled and how the elements work, inter-reaction is seen and agreement is made then developers can be considered. The developers may then need to refine this due to code or function needs (you can't do that because... but may be like this) Then when all in agreement the coding can be implemented. steve -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive:
[libreoffice-design] The future of design suggestions
Hi all, I am a little unsatisfied with the amount of individual threads going into the direction of: We need a new interface for LibreOffice - and it needs to look linke this This is a Free Software Project. As a design team, we will not need to convince ourselves about this need to change the GUI (we all agree on that), we will need to convince the people actually doing (and financing) it - the developers and the companies paying them. We will obviously not be able to do this by starting the same discussion all over and over again (e.g. Ribbon discussion). To convince the sponsors of new software code, we should never argue about personal opinions. A conflict in personal opinion is not solvable. And developers and managers of sponsoring companies willl have personal opinions as well. These kind of conflicts will predicitably end with those parts of the suggestions beeing realised that the sponsors like. This again will not satisfy anyone in the end (not us, not the users and not the sponsors). So, how can we make this more productive? Ideas are good, visualisations are even better. So let us find a way to not comment on these, but to collect them with the goal of easy comparision with eachother. A gallary of ideas and visualisations of the future LibO. We should then try to extract the dimensions these ideas differ on. Knowing these we can then again use user-centric methodologies to have the users decide about what they like. With this data we will have much less trouble to convince the code-sponsors to go into a certain direction. So - the main point I am argueing for is a gallery of interface ideas. Easy to compare and on one spot. What do you think about this? Best, Björn -- Voluntary Open Source Usability: http://www.OpenUsability.org Commercial Open Source Usability: http://www.OpenSource-Usability-Labs.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] The future of design suggestions
+1 on the gallery concept. I am more than willing to set it up and maintain it with the different UI reworks posted here and I think we can even come up with some templates to add it to the wiki's whiteboards. What do you think? I fully agree with the gallery idea, this is the best solution, because with that actually can see what is best, but as it is debated whether Microsoft is losing customers, and he knows how they will be returned because there designers decide how the program looks, rather than developers, who are paid to do as they are told, they do not care if toolbar does not fit the windows, MS is extra just because, and here the main problem is just that, so much debate about whether this bar that stands out from the system. And to ask customers taht say what it is better, They do not care if ribbon deviate from the system, it is important that the program is good and special for us because nobody will be offended if on the new version ubuntu found a single program that sow their face with opportunities. After all, all is a habit. I fully agree with the gallery idea. 2011/6/20 Björn Balazsb...@lazs.de Hi all, I am a little unsatisfied with the amount of individual threads going into the direction of: We need a new interface for LibreOffice - and it needs to look linke this This is a Free Software Project. As a design team, we will not need to convince ourselves about this need to change the GUI (we all agree on that), we will need to convince the people actually doing (and financing) it - the developers and the companies paying them. We will obviously not be able to do this by starting the same discussion all over and over again (e.g. Ribbon discussion). To convince the sponsors of new software code, we should never argue about personal opinions. A conflict in personal opinion is not solvable. And developers and managers of sponsoring companies willl have personal opinions as well. These kind of conflicts will predicitably end with those parts of the suggestions beeing realised that the sponsors like. This again will not satisfy anyone in the end (not us, not the users and not the sponsors). So, how can we make this more productive? Ideas are good, visualisations are even better. So let us find a way to not comment on these, but to collect them with the goal of easy comparision with eachother. A gallary of ideas and visualisations of the future LibO. We should then try to extract the dimensions these ideas differ on. Knowing these we can then again use user-centric methodologies to have the users decide about what they like. With this data we will have much less trouble to convince the code-sponsors to go into a certain direction. So - the main point I am argueing for is a gallery of interface ideas. Easy to compare and on one spot. What do you think about this? Best, Björn -- Voluntary Open Source Usability: http://www.OpenUsability.org Commercial Open Source Usability: http://www.OpenSource-Usability-Labs.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] The future of design suggestions
I am also +1ing the gallery idea, but eill we host it on the wiki or on a different site?? On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Scott Pledger scottpledger2...@gmail.comwrote: +1 on the gallery concept. I am more than willing to set it up and maintain it with the different UI reworks posted here and I think we can even come up with some templates to add it to the wiki's whiteboards. What do you think? I fully agree with the gallery idea, this is the best solution, because with that actually can see what is best, but as it is debated whether Microsoft is losing customers, and he knows how they will be returned because there designers decide how the program looks, rather than developers, who are paid to do as they are told, they do not care if toolbar does not fit the windows, MS is extra just because, and here the main problem is just that, so much debate about whether this bar that stands out from the system. And to ask customers taht say what it is better, They do not care if ribbon deviate from the system, it is important that the program is good and special for us because nobody will be offended if on the new version ubuntu found a single program that sow their face with opportunities. After all, all is a habit. I fully agree with the gallery idea. 2011/6/20 Björn Balazsb...@lazs.de Hi all, I am a little unsatisfied with the amount of individual threads going into the direction of: We need a new interface for LibreOffice - and it needs to look linke this This is a Free Software Project. As a design team, we will not need to convince ourselves about this need to change the GUI (we all agree on that), we will need to convince the people actually doing (and financing) it - the developers and the companies paying them. We will obviously not be able to do this by starting the same discussion all over and over again (e.g. Ribbon discussion). To convince the sponsors of new software code, we should never argue about personal opinions. A conflict in personal opinion is not solvable. And developers and managers of sponsoring companies willl have personal opinions as well. These kind of conflicts will predicitably end with those parts of the suggestions beeing realised that the sponsors like. This again will not satisfy anyone in the end (not us, not the users and not the sponsors). So, how can we make this more productive? Ideas are good, visualisations are even better. So let us find a way to not comment on these, but to collect them with the goal of easy comparision with eachother. A gallary of ideas and visualisations of the future LibO. We should then try to extract the dimensions these ideas differ on. Knowing these we can then again use user-centric methodologies to have the users decide about what they like. With this data we will have much less trouble to convince the code-sponsors to go into a certain direction. So - the main point I am argueing for is a gallery of interface ideas. Easy to compare and on one spot. What do you think about this? Best, Björn -- Voluntary Open Source Usability: http://www.OpenUsability.org Commercial Open Source Usability: http://www.OpenSource-** Usability-Labs.com http://www.OpenSource-Usability-Labs.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+help@global.**libreoffice.orgdesign%2bh...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.**documentfoundation.org/** Netiquette http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.**libreoffice.org/global/design/http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+help@global.**libreoffice.orgdesign%2bh...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.**documentfoundation.org/** Netiquette http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.**libreoffice.org/global/design/http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Sean White, I've Seen the Cow Level -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] The future of design suggestions
we can host it here www.libreofficedesign.weebly.com On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 4:23 PM, Sean White runicpala...@gmail.com wrote: I am also +1ing the gallery idea, but eill we host it on the wiki or on a different site?? we can host it here www.libreofficedesign.weebly.com On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 10:30 AM, Scott Pledger scottpledger2...@gmail.comwrote: +1 on the gallery concept. I am more than willing to set it up and maintain it with the different UI reworks posted here and I think we can even come up with some templates to add it to the wiki's whiteboards. What do you think? I fully agree with the gallery idea, this is the best solution, because with that actually can see what is best, but as it is debated whether Microsoft is losing customers, and he knows how they will be returned because there designers decide how the program looks, rather than developers, who are paid to do as they are told, they do not care if toolbar does not fit the windows, MS is extra just because, and here the main problem is just that, so much debate about whether this bar that stands out from the system. And to ask customers taht say what it is better, They do not care if ribbon deviate from the system, it is important that the program is good and special for us because nobody will be offended if on the new version ubuntu found a single program that sow their face with opportunities. After all, all is a habit. I fully agree with the gallery idea. 2011/6/20 Björn Balazsb...@lazs.de Hi all, I am a little unsatisfied with the amount of individual threads going into the direction of: We need a new interface for LibreOffice - and it needs to look linke this This is a Free Software Project. As a design team, we will not need to convince ourselves about this need to change the GUI (we all agree on that), we will need to convince the people actually doing (and financing) it - the developers and the companies paying them. We will obviously not be able to do this by starting the same discussion all over and over again (e.g. Ribbon discussion). To convince the sponsors of new software code, we should never argue about personal opinions. A conflict in personal opinion is not solvable. And developers and managers of sponsoring companies willl have personal opinions as well. These kind of conflicts will predicitably end with those parts of the suggestions beeing realised that the sponsors like. This again will not satisfy anyone in the end (not us, not the users and not the sponsors). So, how can we make this more productive? Ideas are good, visualisations are even better. So let us find a way to not comment on these, but to collect them with the goal of easy comparision with eachother. A gallary of ideas and visualisations of the future LibO. We should then try to extract the dimensions these ideas differ on. Knowing these we can then again use user-centric methodologies to have the users decide about what they like. With this data we will have much less trouble to convince the code-sponsors to go into a certain direction. So - the main point I am argueing for is a gallery of interface ideas. Easy to compare and on one spot. What do you think about this? Best, Björn -- Voluntary Open Source Usability: http://www.OpenUsability.org Commercial Open Source Usability: http://www.OpenSource-** Usability-Labs.com http://www.OpenSource-Usability-Labs.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+help@global.** libreoffice.orgdesign%2bh...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.**documentfoundation.org/** Netiquette http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.**libreoffice.org/global/design/ http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+help@global.**libreoffice.org design%2bh...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.**documentfoundation.org/** Netiquette http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.**libreoffice.org/global/design/ http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Sean White, I've Seen the Cow Level -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Joed Lopez -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more:
Re: [libreoffice-design] The future of design suggestions
Hi Joed, all jlopez777 schrieb: we can host it here www.libreofficedesign.weebly.com We should try to keep as many resources as possible in the LibreOffice/TDF infrastructure. Individual contributors can't assure future commitment and they should not feel forced to keep their resources open for the community when they had to leave our team for one reason or another. Backups and archives are another point why I strongly prefer our wiki for tasks manageable there. If we lack additional resources, we might ask for hosting them on the TDF infrastructure. But galleries are able to be presented on the wiki, so I don't see any need for external tools. With our Visual Elements page http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Visual_Elements we already use images linked to other wiki pages than the image files, so this might be a starting point... Best regards Bernhard -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-design] The future of design suggestions
Hi back, We should try to keep as many resources as possible in the LibreOffice/TDF infrastructure. Yes, however, ADDITIONALLY it might be helpful to have a Flickr group that would be linked to from the Wiki, so everyone with at least a Yahoo account could post their ideas instantly. With our Visual Elements page http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Visual_Elements we already use images linked to other wiki pages than the image files, so this might be a starting point... However, the new page should probably be sub-page of the Whiteboard page. Astron. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@global.libreoffice.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
