Re: [libreoffice-design] ligatures in the logo
Hi Nik, hi Rob, Jaron, Johannes, Bernhard, ... :-) Am Montag, den 07.03.2011, 04:34 +1100 schrieb Nik: [...] I'd like to know where you stand on the typeface in general? do you think it works? Good question! [...] But most of this is too nitpicky, no font is perfect (except HELVETICA =). ;-) I'm not trying to be nasty, but this typeface looks genuinely unfinished. I think we would do ourselves a huge favour by locating a better font for the next version of the logo. What do you think? change or stay? and if change, do you or your colleagues know of any good open-source fonts? You are right Nik, the font is indeed unfinished (e.g. the Unicode coverage)- and development won't continue as far as I know. But in the given situation some months ago, the font had some real advantages ... for example: having a modern but neutral look. On of the things I've never mentioned in the blog posting [1] was the importance of neutrality, so that there is a viable chance to replace the font by something better (if there is any alternative) without trashing all the material we've created so far. Of course, the new font shouldn't be that different ;-) I've used the font comparison that had been done by the OOo Artwork Team [2]. And since Bernhard had substantial impact in creating the comparison, I'd like to ask him for his experience whether there is something better. Bernhard? I know ... It's very late to be talking about such things, but discussion in this vein might make for a better future logo. I think we slowly start to target topics related to a community branding - not only applying tiny improvements concerning the current one. What are your thoughts here? Thinking about some major improvements is fine, but the timing is important as well ... Personally, I think that some improvements by Johannes should make it into the current logo for (maybe?) the minor release of LibreOffice. And from what I can see, there is consensus that most of the tiny improvements (like you said Nik - and also to me: except the f-i-connection) greatly improve the general visual impression. Cheers, Christoph [1] http://luxate.blogspot.com/2010/10/fontastic-how-libreoffice-got-its-font.html [2] http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/w/index.php?title=Branding_Initiative/branding_guidelines_draftoldid=181144#Fonts -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] ligatures in the logo [was: LibO logo]
Hi Johannes! Yeah, you're right, we're not talking on the same thing. What I mean by kerning is correct pixel anti-alialing artifacts, when a letter becomes blurry and you can use a sharpening filter to sharp the edges (correcting the blurry). But none sharpening filter changes the shape or move objects. I actually didn't know it's called kerning too. Thank you for show me that! :-) By the way, I need to say your work is a actual improvement! I don't know yet if I'm updated to your last proposals, but I'll find it and give you feedback soon. See you, ~Paulo On 02-03-2011 07:00, Johannes Bausch wrote: Hey Paulo, 2011/3/1 Paulo José Amaropaul...@gmail.com Sadly I can't see any image from the imageshack server. Could you add to the wiki? I'm actually curious about your friend's proposal. http://tinyurl.com/48rgtw I guess that's something InDesign does with OpenType Pro fonts (Minion etc.). And with sharpening filter I mean this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsharp_masking or another GIMP plugin to sharp image's edges (IMO, the best is the Inverse Diffusion of GIMP's GMIC plugin). They can be used to correct some kerning problems on the final generated bitmaps. Ah okay. But are we talking about the same kerning? How can a sharpening filter move letters about? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerning Maybe I just don't get it, sorry ^^. To the rest: Can we have a vote on the ligatures somehow? Or are there further suggestions? Thanks, Joey -- Paulo José O. Amaro Computer Science Student Federal University of São João del-Rei WebDesigner / Linked Empresa Júnior Blogger / casatwain.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] ligatures in the logo
I tried to edit the wiki on my phone, but it just wasn't working out. Anyway... My vote: Right. I'm not crazy about the extended f crossbar or the right-angle shape the crossbar makes with the i. I appreciate the effort and hope this isn't the end of this conversation. The logo should change as the project does. I'm just not convinced this idea is ready for use quite yet. On Mar 4, 2011 12:52 PM, Johannes Bausch johannes.bau...@gmail.com wrote: Hey, okay, I've tried to set up a voting page for us, see here: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Joey/Ligatures http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Joey/LigaturesDo you all have write access to this page? I am not that experienced with wikis. @Bernhard: I've shifted the i more to the left. I've also redone the visual kerning for some of the letters; have a look at the scaled-down versions, it should look more even now. @all: It would be great if you voted on the wiki or here on the mailing list. Even if you disapprove of this poll it would be great to get some more opinions on this; so far it's only five people who talk about it. Thanks, Joey PS: I'll be away until Wednesday next week. 2011/3/2 Bernhard Dippold bernh...@familie-dippold.at Hi Joey, all, replying to both of your mails, so please scroll down until the end... Johannes Bausch schrieb: Hey, to gather some more opinions I thought it would be a good idea to have a poll somewhere else, so I asked people in a forum to cast their vote. Although I don't know whether this was a good idea (not really representative, game design forum, so people might be programmers) I thought you might be interested in the results: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Poll.png It's impossible to see the different alternatives, because at my computer the background is nearly black. Ii updated the image with a slightly lighter grey background, so you can see the different alternatives, but keep the white text of the poll results. Apparently noone likes the too fancy ligatures. Most people also complained about the logo in general, so I tried to explain why this is (and remains, for now) the logo of LibO. If you're interested in the comments, too, I'll send you the link. So... in the next days I'll make some final drafts and put up a voting page. If you have some final ideas please tell me. People seem to like the last alternative (with f bow bent towards the i dot) as much as the original. Even if this is far from being representative, I'd like to see a finalized version of this proposal. Could you improve this by moving the i nearer to the f? I don't think that equal spacing for the dot between f and i looks best... Perhaps a combination of your third an my proposal? Greetings, Joey 2011/3/2 Johannes Bauschjohannes.bau...@gmail.com Hey Bernhard, 2011/3/2 Bernhard Dippoldbernh...@familie-dippold.at In your reply to my last mail I understood you in a way that you wanted to work on a new proposal. I added a third alternative (which I don't like very much). The logos on my page are only drafts; if we decide on one of them, I'll spend more time on it. At the moment I don't have another idea how to deal with the ligature - do you? I'd be more than glad to try another one. Like your poll members I like this proposal best, but it needs some more tweaking (I mentioned above). I don't think that there are so many alternatives to modify the two f and the i, so I don't have any other reliable alternative in mind. [...] But what we need to keep in mind: Changes being recognized by the average user / viewer will more likely be postponed until a new major or minor version than modifications leading only to a more balanced, professional and consistent visual impression. +1, I agree. In my eyes proposals (c) and (d) might fall in the balanced category, while (a) and (b) would be more recognizable as modified details. Who has the final word on that? The SC, but they probably support a decision by the Design Team. Best regards Bernhard -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] ligatures in the logo
Hi Joey, Sorry to disappoint after all your work but I took a poll at work and it was unianimous... people liked the original logo better. They thought it was easier to read (f's are too close) and they thought the f connecting to the i was out of place with the rest of the logo. Vote: Original Jaron On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 12:52 PM, Johannes Bausch johannes.bau...@gmail.comwrote: Hey, okay, I've tried to set up a voting page for us, see here: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Joey/Ligatures http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Joey/LigaturesDo you all have write access to this page? I am not that experienced with wikis. @Bernhard: I've shifted the i more to the left. I've also redone the visual kerning for some of the letters; have a look at the scaled-down versions, it should look more even now. @all: It would be great if you voted on the wiki or here on the mailing list. Even if you disapprove of this poll it would be great to get some more opinions on this; so far it's only five people who talk about it. Thanks, Joey PS: I'll be away until Wednesday next week. 2011/3/2 Bernhard Dippold bernh...@familie-dippold.at Hi Joey, all, replying to both of your mails, so please scroll down until the end... Johannes Bausch schrieb: Hey, to gather some more opinions I thought it would be a good idea to have a poll somewhere else, so I asked people in a forum to cast their vote. Although I don't know whether this was a good idea (not really representative, game design forum, so people might be programmers) I thought you might be interested in the results: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Poll.png It's impossible to see the different alternatives, because at my computer the background is nearly black. Ii updated the image with a slightly lighter grey background, so you can see the different alternatives, but keep the white text of the poll results. Apparently noone likes the too fancy ligatures. Most people also complained about the logo in general, so I tried to explain why this is (and remains, for now) the logo of LibO. If you're interested in the comments, too, I'll send you the link. So... in the next days I'll make some final drafts and put up a voting page. If you have some final ideas please tell me. People seem to like the last alternative (with f bow bent towards the i dot) as much as the original. Even if this is far from being representative, I'd like to see a finalized version of this proposal. Could you improve this by moving the i nearer to the f? I don't think that equal spacing for the dot between f and i looks best... Perhaps a combination of your third an my proposal? Greetings, Joey 2011/3/2 Johannes Bauschjohannes.bau...@gmail.com Hey Bernhard, 2011/3/2 Bernhard Dippoldbernh...@familie-dippold.at In your reply to my last mail I understood you in a way that you wanted to work on a new proposal. I added a third alternative (which I don't like very much). The logos on my page are only drafts; if we decide on one of them, I'll spend more time on it. At the moment I don't have another idea how to deal with the ligature - do you? I'd be more than glad to try another one. Like your poll members I like this proposal best, but it needs some more tweaking (I mentioned above). I don't think that there are so many alternatives to modify the two f and the i, so I don't have any other reliable alternative in mind. [...] But what we need to keep in mind: Changes being recognized by the average user / viewer will more likely be postponed until a new major or minor version than modifications leading only to a more balanced, professional and consistent visual impression. +1, I agree. In my eyes proposals (c) and (d) might fall in the balanced category, while (a) and (b) would be more recognizable as modified details. Who has the final word on that? The SC, but they probably support a decision by the Design Team. Best regards Bernhard -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] ligatures in the logo [was: LibO logo]
Hey Paulo, 2011/3/1 Paulo José Amaro paul...@gmail.com Sadly I can't see any image from the imageshack server. Could you add to the wiki? I'm actually curious about your friend's proposal. http://tinyurl.com/48rgtw I guess that's something InDesign does with OpenType Pro fonts (Minion etc.). And with sharpening filter I mean this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsharp_masking or another GIMP plugin to sharp image's edges (IMO, the best is the Inverse Diffusion of GIMP's GMIC plugin). They can be used to correct some kerning problems on the final generated bitmaps. Ah okay. But are we talking about the same kerning? How can a sharpening filter move letters about? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerning Maybe I just don't get it, sorry ^^. To the rest: Can we have a vote on the ligatures somehow? Or are there further suggestions? Thanks, Joey -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [libreoffice-design] ligatures in the logo [was: LibO logo]
Hey Bernhard, 2011/3/2 Bernhard Dippold bernh...@familie-dippold.at In your reply to my last mail I understood you in a way that you wanted to work on a new proposal. I added a third alternative (which I don't like very much). The logos on my page are only drafts; if we decide on one of them, I'll spend more time on it. At the moment I don't have another idea how to deal with the ligature - do you? I'd be more than glad to try another one. If you are not going to do so, we should bring together the different proposals on one wiki page, describe the advantages and disadvantages of each of them and vote. +1 I think it would be a good idea if everyone who votes would actually also tell what he/she dislikes about it. Can you edit my own wiki page? If so, I'd just make a subpage. But what we need to keep in mind: Changes being recognized by the average user / viewer will more likely be postponed until a new major or minor version than modifications leading only to a more balanced, professional and consistent visual impression. +1, I agree. Who has the final word on that? Your first proposal (see the tinyurl above) definitely falls in the first category in my eyes... Sure, it does look different, at least the fft. And if we go for it, we should be sure we want that ligature in our logo. Joey. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [libreoffice-design] ligatures in the logo [was: LibO logo]
Hey, to gather some more opinions I thought it would be a good idea to have a poll somewhere else, so I asked people in a forum to cast their vote. Although I don't know whether this was a good idea (not really representative, game design forum, so people might be programmers) I thought you might be interested in the results: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Poll.png http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Poll.pngApparently noone likes the too fancy ligatures. Most people also complained about the logo in general, so I tried to explain why this is (and remains, for now) the logo of LibO. If you're interested in the comments, too, I'll send you the link. So... in the next days I'll make some final drafts and put up a voting page. If you have some final ideas please tell me. Greetings, Joey 2011/3/2 Johannes Bausch johannes.bau...@gmail.com Hey Bernhard, 2011/3/2 Bernhard Dippold bernh...@familie-dippold.at In your reply to my last mail I understood you in a way that you wanted to work on a new proposal. I added a third alternative (which I don't like very much). The logos on my page are only drafts; if we decide on one of them, I'll spend more time on it. At the moment I don't have another idea how to deal with the ligature - do you? I'd be more than glad to try another one. If you are not going to do so, we should bring together the different proposals on one wiki page, describe the advantages and disadvantages of each of them and vote. +1 I think it would be a good idea if everyone who votes would actually also tell what he/she dislikes about it. Can you edit my own wiki page? If so, I'd just make a subpage. But what we need to keep in mind: Changes being recognized by the average user / viewer will more likely be postponed until a new major or minor version than modifications leading only to a more balanced, professional and consistent visual impression. +1, I agree. Who has the final word on that? Your first proposal (see the tinyurl above) definitely falls in the first category in my eyes... Sure, it does look different, at least the fft. And if we go for it, we should be sure we want that ligature in our logo. Joey. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] ligatures in the logo [was: LibO logo]
Hey Bernhard, all, sorry for not having repsonded so far. I'll try to answer more in time in future. I've added a third alternative where both f's have the same shape (note however, that I had to cap the first f so that the upper tip does not collide with the next f. If I had just copied the second one it would have looked really ugly - I'm sure you realize that, I just thought I should mention it). I think having the same curvature for both fs is indeed the way to go. I'll keep that in mind for the final design. Another thing I tried was to have equal spacing for all three letters - which does not look good. Bernhard, you said that the i is lighter than the f and therefore could be moved to the left - that is exactly what I have done in the previous examples, although it seems as if I forgot to mention it. I added a note on that on the wiki. So equal spacing: not good. Even spacing: good. The other thing I tried was to incorporate the suggestion of my friend ( http://tinyurl.com/6x7fyg7) which looked even worse than without any ligature. 2011/2/28 Bernhard Dippold bernh...@familie-dippold.at It looks different from the original Vegur f, but a slightly stronger bending doesn't harm the general impression in my eyes. Since the Vegur font has no ligatures the ligatures will look different from the normal letters anyway. I try and match them as good as I can. Also, it seems to me that there are currently two open threads in the design list. I try to merge them ^^: 2011/3/1 Paulo José paul...@gmail.com *The Ligatures*: I think the ligatures in the fi letters was a very welcome surprise. It's true they remember a serifed font, but I personally love the way you put this serifed feeling on the LibO logo! I think it makes the logo very particular and organic. I don't see any reason to don't mix serif and sans-serif font when it's obviously look intentional and well done. @Paulo: thanks for your positive comments. I know this is personal taste but since everyone told me it would look like a serifed font I stopped thinking about it. But now that you say you like it, I must say that I agree. All alternatives to the one I first did (just for reference: http://tinyurl.com/63ku3mw) look more nervous because there are more gaps and more open tips. Since I got so little (in terms of different people) feedback on this I'd like to ask others to give their opinion on the logos. Just a short looks good/doesn't look good would be really great. I'll also try and ask some friends of mine. *Manual kerning*: Well, I'm not the right person to talk about it, but I'm not sure if it's worth, since you can ever make use of a sharpening filter for images. But the changes you've done on the letters shape are a great improvement and make the things much... sexy [I can't find a better adjective]. A note: It seems the D on Document has not a correct kerning, but like I've said, it could be easily adjusted with a sharpening filter. What do you mean with sharpening filter? I agree that the sharp corners on the logo were a bad idea. Let's forget about them ^^. Thanks, Joey -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] ligatures in the logo [was: LibO logo]
Hi Johannes! Sadly I can't see any image from the imageshack server. Could you add to the wiki? I'm actually curious about your friend's proposal. And with sharpening filter I mean this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsharp_masking or another GIMP plugin to sharp image's edges (IMO, the best is the Inverse Diffusion of GIMP's GMIC plugin). They can be used to correct some kerning problems on the final generated bitmaps. ~Paulo Paulo José O. Amaro Estudante de Ciência da Computação / UFSJ Webdesigner / Linked E.J. Blogueiro / CasaTwain.com 2011/3/1 Johannes Bausch johannes.bau...@gmail.com Hey Bernhard, all, sorry for not having repsonded so far. I'll try to answer more in time in future. I've added a third alternative where both f's have the same shape (note however, that I had to cap the first f so that the upper tip does not collide with the next f. If I had just copied the second one it would have looked really ugly - I'm sure you realize that, I just thought I should mention it). I think having the same curvature for both fs is indeed the way to go. I'll keep that in mind for the final design. Another thing I tried was to have equal spacing for all three letters - which does not look good. Bernhard, you said that the i is lighter than the f and therefore could be moved to the left - that is exactly what I have done in the previous examples, although it seems as if I forgot to mention it. I added a note on that on the wiki. So equal spacing: not good. Even spacing: good. The other thing I tried was to incorporate the suggestion of my friend ( http://tinyurl.com/6x7 Paulo José O. Amaro Estudante de Ciência da Computação / UFSJ Webdesigner / Linked E.J. Blogueiro / CasaTwain.com fyg7 http://tinyurl.com/6x7fyg7) which looked even worse than without any ligature. 2011/2/28 Bernhard Dippold bernh...@familie-dippold.at It looks different from the original Vegur f, but a slightly stronger bending doesn't harm the general impression in my eyes. Since the Vegur font has no ligatures the ligatures will look different from the normal letters anyway. I try and match them as good as I can. Also, it seems to me that there are currently two open threads in the design list. I try to merge them ^^: 2011/3/1 Paulo José paul...@gmail.com *The Ligatures*: I think the ligatures in the fi letters was a very welcome surprise. It's true they remember a serifed font, but I personally love the way you put this serifed feeling on the LibO logo! I think it makes the logo very particular and organic. I don't see any reason to don't mix serif and sans-serif font when it's obviously look intentional and well done. @Paulo: thanks for your positive comments. I know this is personal taste but since everyone told me it would look like a serifed font I stopped thinking about it. But now that you say you like it, I must say that I agree. All alternatives to the one I first did (just for reference: http://tinyurl.com/63ku3mw) look more nervous because there are more gaps and more open tips. Since I got so little (in terms of different people) feedback on this I'd like to ask others to give their opinion on the logos. Just a short looks good/doesn't look good would be really great. I'll also try and ask some friends of mine. *Manual kerning*: Well, I'm not the right person to talk about it, but I'm not sure if it's worth, since you can ever make use of a sharpening filter for images. But the changes you've done on the letters shape are a great improvement and make the things much... sexy [I can't find a better adjective]. A note: It seems the D on Document has not a correct kerning, but like I've said, it could be easily adjusted with a sharpening filter. What do you mean with sharpening filter? I agree that the sharp corners on the logo were a bad idea. Let's forget about them ^^. Thanks, Joey -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] ligatures in the logo [was: LibO logo]
Hi Joey, all, sorry for a short reply, but time is precious ... Johannes Bausch schrieb: [...] @Bernhard: Do you mean the bow on the first f should also point towards the middle of the i? Or just bend exactly the same way the second f does? The two bows should have the same curvature (just my personal opinion, but it avoids the impression of different f shapes). I raised the dot because I thought it looked better (I didn't think much about that, to be honest). I guess I wanted to avoid bending the f bow too much - if you leave the dot where it was and still want the f bow to point towards it, you have to bend it very strongly which doesn't look good. It looks different from the original Vegur f, but a slightly stronger bending doesn't harm the general impression in my eyes. My example [1] reduced the distance between the second f and the i to less than the distance between the f, because the i is lighter than the f (due to the white area around the dot). But this is not necessarily the right way to go. We can adapt the distance between f and i to the distance between the two f and raise the dot without enlarging the f height. This would lead to a slightly increased bending of the second f bow - what should be repeated for the first f. Do you think this is reasonable? Best regards Bernhard -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] ligatures in the logo [was: LibO logo]
RGB ES schrieb: I can see a problem on this discussion: a sans serif i should not have, ehr, serifs... True, but ligatures per se are not serifs. If they look like a serif then there's something wrong. I asked a friend of mine who studies design to have a look at that issue, and she told me that many sans serif fonts do indeed have ffi ligatures, just as Bernhard said. She also had another idea, which I'll also give a try: http://tinyurl.com/6x7fyg7 Only on serif fonts it is ok to link the f and the i (and to make the f grab the dot from the i), but not on sans serif or grotesque fonts. I don't think that's correct. Ligatures are just a way to make the text look more even and to avoid tiny gaps and collisions. Have a look at the original logo: the i is shifted to the right (it has a larger distance from the second f than the first two f's). This creates an ugly white gap in between the f and the i. To avoid that, one shifts the i to the left. Without ligature (which just means: changing individual letters) both the dot on the i as well as the bar on the f collide with the other letter. Thus, one needs ligatures. (Sorry if I'm repeating stuff you already said, Bernhard. You're right with what you say.) @Bernhard: Do you mean the bow on the first f should also point towards the middle of the i? Or just bend exactly the same way the second f does? I raised the dot because I thought it looked better (I didn't think much about that, to be honest). I guess I wanted to avoid bending the f bow too much - if you leave the dot where it was and still want the f bow to point towards it, you have to bend it very strongly which doesn't look good. Therefore I centerd it on the line which is also the baseline of the first f's bow tip (see the detail images). I'll give above said things a try later and reply again when I'm done. Greetings, Joey -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] ligatures in the logo [was: LibO logo]
I can see a problem on this discussion: a sans serif i should not have, ehr, serifs... I mean, the i on a sans serif font should NOT have horizontal lines, and because of that it cannot be combined with the f. A sans serif ligature between two f is Ok but it is wrong between an f and an i: the only point to consider here is to proper align the f's top curve with the dot. But f and i on a sans serif font must be physically separated. Only on serif fonts it is ok to link the f and the i (and to make the f grab the dot from the i), but not on sans serif or grotesque fonts. Just my 2¢ Cheers Ricardo 2011/2/26 Bernhard Dippold bernh...@familie-dippold.at: Hi Joey, Christoph, all, Christoph, I'll reply to your mail later (I don't think we're far away from each other), here just a short remark to Joey... Johannes Bausch schrieb: Hey, 2011/2/25 Bernhard Dippoldbernh...@familie-dippold.at sorry, but I might misinterpret your mail, because I don't remember whom you are citing (and you don't mention the author): Sorry for that. For me the whole discussion is a single thread in gmail. I'll remember to add the names in the future when necessary. I was quoting Martin. Thanks. At home my mail client shows the mails threaded, so it is not a problem to go back to the mail you cite. At work the webmail sorts all the mails by date - nearly no chance to find the original posting... I have done two alternative ligatures, maybe they are better suited for the font, since they're not so obtrusive. You can see them here: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Joey#Alternative_Ligatures I like them more, as they keep the general impression of a sans font. I might be wrong, but to my understanding ligatures are typographic elements to improve readability and visual balance of words - similar to kerning. They are needed in cases, where the visually balanced distance between characters would lead to a too narrow space between parts of the characters. Based on this thoughts, the distance between the cross line in f and the i is too narrow, when the distance has to be reduced for a visual balance. Therefore the cross is extended to the i. For the dot it's similar: At the adjusted character position the distance to the f bow is too small and the direction of the bow aims towards an eccentric position inside the dot. This looks imbalanced. Among your proposals I prefer Alternative 2 because the f should have the same height in my understanding. But I don't know why you raised the position of the dot. The logo doesn't contain another i in the regular area (the bold i in Libre is too different to be taken as reference). In comparison to such an i it would be necessary to extend the space between the bar and the dot a bit, because the f bow adds visual weight to the upper part of the i. As we don't have a second regular i we don't need to move the dot in any direction. As you showed in your proposals the visual impression is improved, when the f bow is oriented towards the middle of the i dot. I think the same applies to the first f: It's bow should be related to the following f. I made a quick sketch to show you what I mean: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Logo_ligature.png Keeping the position of the i dot, but adjusted the f bows to harmonize with the inclusion of the i in the visual element. I don't like it, because the first f bow should aim towards a slightly higher position on the second f and the bows are not constant in their bending. But I hope you'll understand what I mean. After the optimization the logo should differ so little, that people will not see the difference, but realize that it looks better. Best regards Bernhard -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [libreoffice-design] ligatures in the logo [was: LibO logo]
Hi Ricardo, * RGB ES schrieb: I can see a problem on this discussion: a sans serif i should not have, ehr, serifs... You're right. But many of the professional font contain the fi ligature (as Unicode character U+FB03) with an extended f bar to the i. I mean, the i on a sans serif font should NOT have horizontal lines, and because of that it cannot be combined with the f. A sans serif ligature between two f is Ok but it is wrong between an f and an i: the only point to consider here is to proper align the f's top curve with the dot. But f and i on a sans serif font must be physically separated. This would mean to shorten the bar of the second f, as with normal width bar the distance to the i is too small. Perhaps we could give it a try. Only on serif fonts it is ok to link the f and the i (and to make the f grab the dot from the i), but not on sans serif or grotesque fonts. This would reduce the number of ligatures by far - perhaps this is right, didn't get into this matter so deep... Best regards Bernhard -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to design+h...@libreoffice.org List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/www/design/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
