Re: Thoughs about communication

[Alexandre Franke]

On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 10:52 PM, Michael Catanzaro
 wrote:
> It would be really awesome to have a GNOME Chat app based on Matrix.

It would indeed.

> Instead of implementing support for multiple protocols in the app, like
> we did with Empathy, it would focus on doing one thing well -- Matrix,
> both text and video chat (OK, two things) -- and then the quality of
> the support for other protocols would depend on the quality of Matrix
> bridges and would not be something the app has to worry about.

Depend on the quality *and* existence.

> Trying
> to support 20 different protocols really took its toll on the Empathy
> user experience. Requires manpower. Maybe someone will see this mail
> and become interested. Maybe not.

Agreed. I thought one of the arguments in favour of keeping Telepathy
around was the support for some “uncommon” protocols that are not
really supported elsewhere though? [0]

One feature that Telepathy also brings, which I find really
interesting, but which sadly hasn't really gained any traction, is
tubes. Would it be interesting and feasible to extract/port that
feature and ditch the rest of Telepathy?

Another question your proposal raises is if, providing someone
eventually volunteers to do the work, the GNOME Shell maintainers
would accept patches to drop current Telepathy-tied chat integration
and replace it with a Matrix-tied alternative.

[0] One possible answer would maybe be that those networks don't have
the critical mass required for us to spend our rare workforce on and
that we expect third party (libpurple-based?) clients to take care of
that market.

-- 
Alexandre Franke
GNOME Hacker & Foundation Director
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Re: Thoughs about communication

[Sriram Ramkrishna]

On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 1:52 PM Michael Catanzaro 
wrote:

> On Thu, 2017-01-26 at 20:56 +, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 7:47 AM Allan Day 
> > wrote:
> > > Attracting and retaining contributors has to be the most important
> > > consideration. It's worth noting that IRC cuts in a few different
> > > directions here: on the one hand, IRC means there's no barrier
> > > between us and all the existing Free Software contributors/projects
> > > who are also using IRC. On the other hand, for contributors who are
> > > used to modern tools, IRC probably feels like a huge step backwards
> > > - it isn't user friendly, isn't attractive, and it doesn't work
> > > well if you're not in one of the time zones that are popular with
> > > our community.
> > >
> > > In some ways, GNOME has the worst of both worlds - we're using poor
> > > tech which has the advantage of adoption, and then we go and use a
> > > relatively isolated server, so we miss out on the additional
> > > traffic we might get on Freenode.
> > >
> >
> > Let me add my two cents here.  I've been wanting to do something like
> > this for some time and as Allan has alluded to, there has been
> > discussions amongst engagement team people around this.
> >
> > My two cents, and bear with me on my slight rant - I really hate the
> > idea of depending on a web app like riot.  It's like admitting that
> > we've lost the whole application space and that we're going browser.
> > I know that is not what is intended, but that will be the perception.
> >
> >
> > I'd like to do this, but I'd like to start putting resources into
> > creating a viable chat client that works and is designed as a
> > competition to a web app.  Maybe that means some kind of contest or
> > something.  I'm not really worried about actually writing one after
> > all matrix is an open standard, but the design one that shows the
> > advantage of running something native should be a challenge that we
> > need to meet head on.
>
> It would be really awesome to have a GNOME Chat app based on Matrix.
> Instead of implementing support for multiple protocols in the app, like
> we did with Empathy, it would focus on doing one thing well -- Matrix,
> both text and video chat (OK, two things) -- and then the quality of
> the support for other protocols would depend on the quality of Matrix
> bridges and would not be something the app has to worry about. Trying
> to support 20 different protocols really took its toll on the Empathy
> user experience. Requires manpower. Maybe someone will see this mail
> and become interested. Maybe not.
>
>

I would support that as well.  In any case, if a developer wants to do it
that would be awesome.  It seems that if we have 'wants/needs' we should
advertise that we are looking for people to do that?  Especially if we can
get resources from both GNOME and Matrix communities to make this happen.

sri


> Michael
>
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Re: Thoughs about communication

[Michael Catanzaro]

On Thu, 2017-01-26 at 20:56 +, Sriram Ramkrishna wrote:
> 
> 
> On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 7:47 AM Allan Day 
> wrote:
> > Attracting and retaining contributors has to be the most important
> > consideration. It's worth noting that IRC cuts in a few different
> > directions here: on the one hand, IRC means there's no barrier
> > between us and all the existing Free Software contributors/projects
> > who are also using IRC. On the other hand, for contributors who are
> > used to modern tools, IRC probably feels like a huge step backwards
> > - it isn't user friendly, isn't attractive, and it doesn't work
> > well if you're not in one of the time zones that are popular with
> > our community.
> > 
> > In some ways, GNOME has the worst of both worlds - we're using poor
> > tech which has the advantage of adoption, and then we go and use a
> > relatively isolated server, so we miss out on the additional
> > traffic we might get on Freenode.
> > 
> 
> Let me add my two cents here.  I've been wanting to do something like
> this for some time and as Allan has alluded to, there has been
> discussions amongst engagement team people around this.
> 
> My two cents, and bear with me on my slight rant - I really hate the
> idea of depending on a web app like riot.  It's like admitting that
> we've lost the whole application space and that we're going browser. 
> I know that is not what is intended, but that will be the perception.
>  
> 
> I'd like to do this, but I'd like to start putting resources into
> creating a viable chat client that works and is designed as a
> competition to a web app.  Maybe that means some kind of contest or
> something.  I'm not really worried about actually writing one after
> all matrix is an open standard, but the design one that shows the
> advantage of running something native should be a challenge that we
> need to meet head on.

It would be really awesome to have a GNOME Chat app based on Matrix.
Instead of implementing support for multiple protocols in the app, like
we did with Empathy, it would focus on doing one thing well -- Matrix,
both text and video chat (OK, two things) -- and then the quality of
the support for other protocols would depend on the quality of Matrix
bridges and would not be something the app has to worry about. Trying
to support 20 different protocols really took its toll on the Empathy
user experience. Requires manpower. Maybe someone will see this mail
and become interested. Maybe not.

Michael
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Re: Thoughs about communication

[Sriram Ramkrishna]

On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 7:47 AM Allan Day  wrote:

>
> Attracting and retaining contributors has to be the most important
> consideration. It's worth noting that IRC cuts in a few different
> directions here: on the one hand, IRC means there's no barrier between us
> and all the existing Free Software contributors/projects who are also using
> IRC. On the other hand, for contributors who are used to modern tools, IRC
> probably feels like a huge step backwards - it isn't user friendly, isn't
> attractive, and it doesn't work well if you're not in one of the time zones
> that are popular with our community.
>
> In some ways, GNOME has the worst of both worlds - we're using poor tech
> which has the advantage of adoption, and then we go and use a relatively
> isolated server, so we miss out on the additional traffic we might get on
> Freenode.
>

Let me add my two cents here.  I've been wanting to do something like this
for some time and as Allan has alluded to, there has been discussions
amongst engagement team people around this.

My two cents, and bear with me on my slight rant - I really hate the idea
of depending on a web app like riot.  It's like admitting that we've lost
the whole application space and that we're going browser.  I know that is
not what is intended, but that will be the perception.

I'd like to do this, but I'd like to start putting resources into creating
a viable chat client that works and is designed as a competition to a web
app.  Maybe that means some kind of contest or something.  I'm not really
worried about actually writing one after all matrix is an open standard,
but the design one that shows the advantage of running something native
should be a challenge that we need to meet head on.

That said, we'll table that bit for now.  I have talked to Andrea Veri,
they are kind of low on sysadmin resources and probably can't help in the
immediate future in implementing something.

Seeing as I have some free time; I asked Andrea if it was okay if I could
spearhead this particular project. A good way introduce myself back to
devops after a long hiatus.  He seemed to agree, so I can start looking
into at least creating the irc bridge between matrix and some specific
rooms - #engagement, #newcomers, and #docs.  I've picked these as the kind
of contributors we have tend to be quite varied, but also there are
differences in culture and etiquette between irc and these other
technologies that can be disruptive.

sri
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Re: Thoughs about communication

[Adrian Perez de Castro]

Hello all,

On Fri, 13 Jan 2017 09:40:43 -0600, Michael Catanzaro  
wrote:
> On Fri, 2017-01-13 at 23:45 +1100, George Barrett wrote:
> > On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 08:37:30AM +, Alberto Fanjul Alonso
> > wrote:
> > > Hi, hackers
> > > 
> > > Do anybody though about trying new services for communication?
> > > 
> > > - signal https://whispersystems.org/
> > > - telegram https://telegram.org/
> > > - matrix.org http://matrix.org/
> > > - gitter https://gitter.im/
> > 
> > None of these platforms have an official Telepathy protocol implementation.
> > That people will have a lessened ability to access chat already seems like a
> > non-starter.
>
> I've been assured that Matrix works well enough via telepathy-haze,
> although I've never tried it myself and wouldn't want to recommend it.
> Anyway, telepathy has been unmaintained for years and is frankly
> totally dead, so the real problem here is that GNOME Shell still uses
> Telepathy at all.

There's telepathy-cauchy [1] (a connection manager) and matrix-glib-sdk [2].
Unfortunately the repositories have not had any activity in the last month —
though if integration with Telepathy is a must, they do look like a great
starting point to give them some love and ensure they work with the current
Matrix HTTP API.

> (This is a real shame, by the way. If only somebody cared enough to
> maintain it)

:-(

> > > pros/cons irc:
> > > 
> > > pros:
> > > 
> > > - is widespread
> > > - integrated in gnome environment (bots, bugzilla)
> > 
> > I would argue these two features are critical to any prospective chat
> > platform. If people can't access chat in a way that suits their workflow,
> > they probably won't. And it'd be a step backwards if automation suddenly
> > became a stumbling block.
> > 
> > In terms of universality, the only chat platform rivalling IRC (that I can
> > think of, at least) is XMPP. I don't know enough about it to seriously
> > recommend it, though; does it support the requested features?
> 
> Matrix solves this by bridging to both IRC and XMPP, so you can
> continue using your existing client.

...or use a Matrix client like Riot to connect via bridges to IRC, XMPP, and
so on. Right now I am using Riot (in Revolt) to be available at the same time
in IRC (Freenode, OFTC, Mozilla), some Gitter rooms, and of course few Matrix
rooms as well. It just feels right :-)

> As far as GNOME integration, our Telepathy integration in GNOME Shell
> has been very lacking since GNOME 3.8 and probably worse than no
> integration since GNOME 3.16. I would really, really like to see a
> decent GNOME Chat app, or just improved Empathy, but in the meantime
> we're already in a very bad position with Telepathy.
> 
> (And don't say "Polari"... unfortunately, as Polari can only handle
> IRC, it's not an option for those of us who need to use any other
> protocol.)

I always thought that it's a bit of a pity that Polari does not handle
Telepathy CMs other than the IRC one. It would be *so* fitting to have it
handle e.g. XMPP MUC and Matrix rooms...

> > > - signal is aware of privacy
> > 
> > What does this mean? If the plan is that public chats are logged, is there 
> > any
> > room for privacy considerations? I'm probably misunderstanding, but being
> > privacy-aware seems moot in this instance.
> 
> Signal offers end-to-end encryption. So does Matrix. I don't know how
> this feature interacts with chat room logging (though I'd presume that
> the developers are not stupid).

It does: E2E crypto means that the server cannot “see” the contents of the
messages, so of course server-side history search and a couple of things more
do not work when using E2E. This is by design.

—
 Adrián

---
[1] https://github.com/gergelypolonkai/telepathy-cauchy
[2] https://github.com/gergelypolonkai/matrix-glib-sdk



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