Re: Replacing control center menus
On Fri, 2006-12-15 at 11:09 +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote: Le vendredi 15 décembre 2006 à 07:40 +, Toby Smithe a écrit : But I hope we do not move settings into other applications; like the file manager. Where else than in the file manager would you expect to find file manager settings? If they are global settings, in a separate applet. If not, well, in the file manager, of course! -- Help me get to Venezuela! http://tibsplace.co.uk/venezuela ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Replacing control center menus
On Wed, 2006-12-13 at 20:25 +, Toby Smithe wrote: On Wed, 2006-12-13 at 18:16 +, Calum Benson wrote: It's fine, but I'm fairly sure that once you learned where the icon was going to appear, it would usually be quicker to double-click it straight away, than to move your hands from the mouse to the keyboard, start typing, and (possibly, depending on the number of matches) move your hands back to the mouse again to activate it. The brain is *very* good at recognising patterns (the icon+text) and remembering positions. This might be the case: but what if it appears down beneath the visible section? Then the user would have to scroll, and this is definitely slower than typing; especially if they don't have a mouse with a scroll wheel (or equivalent). Yes, I did say (in my earlier mail, I think) that Apple's 'highlighting' only works well because you never have to scroll. If we do require scrolling by default, that's a fairly serious usability impediment in itself, IMHO. Cheeri, Calum. -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Java Desktop System Group http://ie.sun.com +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Replacing control center menus
On Tue, 2006-12-12 at 14:51 -0700, Scott Reeves wrote: snip various questions about the new shell ... I find the filter feature significantly helps with the “too many capplets” issue. One strength of the new shell is it dynamically displays the filtered list of choices as you type (and enter launches when you are down to one). As I commented yesterday, this can actually be counter-productive, as it means you don't get to learn the initial position of the icon you're looking for so you can just find it visually the next time. The Apple control center, for example, just highlights the matches as you type, which seems like a better idea IMHO. (Provided you don't need to scroll to see some of the matches, which you never do in Apple's shell.) Cheeri, Calum. -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Java Desktop System Group http://ie.sun.com +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Replacing control center menus
On Wed, 2006-12-13 at 13:36 +, Calum Benson wrote: On Tue, 2006-12-12 at 14:51 -0700, Scott Reeves wrote: I find the filter feature significantly helps with the “too many capplets” issue. One strength of the new shell is it dynamically displays the filtered list of choices as you type (and enter launches when you are down to one). As I commented yesterday, this can actually be counter-productive, as it means you don't get to learn the initial position of the icon you're looking for so you can just find it visually the next time. Are you actually likely to use any given capplet enough times that you'd be able to remember where it was between uses? From what I remember of OS X, I always had to look around a bit to find the capplet I was looking for. Also, I don't remember if we're looking at including the SLED application browser as well, but it works exactly the same way as the control center does wrt searching, and doing highlighting rather than filtering wouldn't work well at all there (since there are several pages of apps). -- Dan ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Replacing control center menus
On Wed, 2006-12-13 at 11:55 -0500, Dan Winship wrote: On Wed, 2006-12-13 at 13:36 +, Calum Benson wrote: On Tue, 2006-12-12 at 14:51 -0700, Scott Reeves wrote: I find the filter feature significantly helps with the “too many capplets” issue. One strength of the new shell is it dynamically displays the filtered list of choices as you type (and enter launches when you are down to one). As I commented yesterday, this can actually be counter-productive, as it means you don't get to learn the initial position of the icon you're looking for so you can just find it visually the next time. Are you actually likely to use any given capplet enough times that you'd be able to remember where it was between uses? From what I remember of OS X, I always had to look around a bit to find the capplet I was looking for. Also, I don't remember if we're looking at including the SLED application browser as well, but it works exactly the same way as the control center does wrt searching, and doing highlighting rather than filtering wouldn't work well at all there (since there are several pages of apps). Man I hope not. If I wanted a Windows clone I would run Windows. Jon ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Replacing control center menus
On Wed, 2006-12-13 at 18:16 +, Calum Benson wrote: It's fine, but I'm fairly sure that once you learned where the icon was going to appear, it would usually be quicker to double-click it straight away, than to move your hands from the mouse to the keyboard, start typing, and (possibly, depending on the number of matches) move your hands back to the mouse again to activate it. The brain is *very* good at recognising patterns (the icon+text) and remembering positions. This might be the case: but what if it appears down beneath the visible section? Then the user would have to scroll, and this is definitely slower than typing; especially if they don't have a mouse with a scroll wheel (or equivalent). --- Help me get to Venezuela! http://tibsplace.co.uk/venezuela ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Replacing control center menus
We've done the same kind of thing (search-as-you-type filtering) with the Add to panel dialog in Ubuntu. The point is not to let the user remember where the setting he wants lies (does he really care?), but to let him find it quickly every time. Isn't it fine if he uses the search box each time? That's usually what I do when adding an applet in Ubuntu: just type in one or two words then hit Enter. I don't remember where the applets I want lie and I don't really need to. I'd suggest if the control center is getting this shell that also gnome-applets would get the same shell. This way everything is consistent. Jaap ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Replacing control center menus
Hi, I really wanted this feature for some months. Thanks for that job ! Also some screenshots would be cool. Are there any use cases as to why this is better than the menus? A menu longer that 10 entry is very painful. Often, Gnome properties menu is about 20 entry when you install some additionnal softwares. Gnome is the only desktop which keep using this outdated control-center. A control center is far more usable and accessible (especially if it provide search). Étienne. -- Verso l'Alto ! signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Replacing control center menus
Ross Burton wrote: On Tue, 2006-12-12 at 11:18 +, Thomas Wood wrote: The gnome-control-center hackers have been hard at work integrating the work done at Novell into making a nice shiny new shell for the control center. This time it is very much more usable, and we would like to propose that we replace the Preferences and Administration menus in the System menu with a single link to the new control center shell. There is always the possibility of adding a gconf key that will allow users to revert back to the old behaviour. Of course, we wouldn't like to do this without the full support of the GNOME community, so we invite all your comments and thoughts. Some screenshots of the new system would be good for people like me who are not running a full GNOME 2.17 desktop. I didn't include screenshots because there is still work to be done in terms of making it more acceptable to GNOME users (for example, we have patches pending to making it more compliant with the current theme). However, if you search for SLED control center or application browser you will get some idea of how it is going to look. The main purpose of my e-mail was to gauge the reaction to removing the menus and replacing them with a link to a shell window. If the reaction is mainly positive it will give us the motivation to polish off the new shell, and make sure the appropriate accessibility and usability audits are completed before switching over. -Thomas ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Replacing control center menus
David Bolter wrote: If it is indeed very much more usable, then you have my vote as long usable includes accessible. http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gap/ By usable I nearly meant has enough features to be useful. Accessibility and usability audits would, of course, be a prerequisite to making any changes at all. -Thomas ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Replacing control center menus
On Tue, 2006-12-12 at 15:26 +0100, Étienne Bersac wrote: A menu longer that 10 entry is very painful. Too menu preferences items is painful whether it's in a menu or a shell window. I doubt that this new UI helps much with that, though I haven't seen a screenshot. Combining control panels will still be necessary. -- Murray Cumming [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Replacing control center menus
On Tue, 2006-12-12 at 15:26 +0100, Étienne Bersac wrote: A menu longer that 10 entry is very painful. Often, Gnome properties menu is about 20 entry when you install some additionnal softwares. Gnome is the only desktop which keep using this outdated control-center. A control center is far more usable and accessible (especially if it provide search). This also could mean that we have too many capplets. Thanks, -Jonathan ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Replacing control center menus
On Ter, 2006-12-12 at 11:51 -0500, Jonathan Blandford wrote: On Tue, 2006-12-12 at 15:26 +0100, Étienne Bersac wrote: A menu longer that 10 entry is very painful. Often, Gnome properties menu is about 20 entry when you install some additionnal softwares. Gnome is the only desktop which keep using this outdated control-center. A control center is far more usable and accessible (especially if it provide search). This also could mean that we have too many capplets. Agreed. But even if we can't get away from a multitude of capplets, there's an alternative solution: add an extra level of preferences categories, as we do for the applications menu. -- Gustavo J. A. M. Carneiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] The universe is always one step beyond logic. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Replacing control center menus
On Tue, 2006-12-12 at 11:51 -0500, Jonathan Blandford wrote: On Tue, 2006-12-12 at 15:26 +0100, Étienne Bersac wrote: A menu longer that 10 entry is very painful. Often, Gnome properties menu is about 20 entry when you install some additionnal softwares. Gnome is the only desktop which keep using this outdated control-center. A control center is far more usable and accessible (especially if it provide search). This also could mean that we have too many capplets. I think this is definitely more of the root problem. It seems very inefficient to launch one application to then launch the application you really want to use. Except for the first time you are configuring the desktop on a new install, how often are you in tweaking more than one setting at a time? The first time configuration problem should really be handled by gnome providing an, export/import personal desktop settings, utility. Jon ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Replacing control center menus
On 12/12/06, Thomas Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Community, The gnome-control-center hackers have been hard at work integrating the work done at Novell into making a nice shiny new shell for the control center. This time it is very much more usable, and we would like to propose that we replace the Preferences and Administration menus in the System menu with a single link to the new control center shell. There is always the possibility of adding a gconf key that will allow users to revert back to the old behaviour. Of course, we wouldn't like to do this without the full support of the GNOME community, so we invite all your comments and thoughts. Regards, Thomas Rather than a single link, can we have a several pseudo-links to the various categories? Corey ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Replacing control center menus
Gustavo J. A. M. Carneiro wrote: On Ter, 2006-12-12 at 11:51 -0500, Jonathan Blandford wrote: On Tue, 2006-12-12 at 15:26 +0100, Étienne Bersac wrote: A menu longer that 10 entry is very painful. Often, Gnome properties menu is about 20 entry when you install some additionnal softwares. Gnome is the only desktop which keep using this outdated control-center. A control center is far more usable and accessible (especially if it provide search). This also could mean that we have too many capplets. Agreed. But even if we can't get away from a multitude of capplets, there's an alternative solution: add an extra level of preferences categories, as we do for the applications menu. Four clicks to get to a preference window? Sounds a bit excessive. We had the discussion about the number of capplets already on the control center list. It was generally agreed that it would be nice to merge some of them, but (as far as I know) all except one of the suggestions had problems. And after that, the biggest issue is finding some developers with enough time to actually do the work. I do think using a shell window is easier than a menu, especially when it has search and filter features. It is also likely to be more familiar to users coming from other desktops. -Thomas ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Replacing control center menus
Jonathan Blandford wrote: On Tue, 2006-12-12 at 15:26 +0100, Étienne Bersac wrote: A menu longer that 10 entry is very painful. Often, Gnome properties menu is about 20 entry when you install some additionnal softwares. Gnome is the only desktop which keep using this outdated control-center. A control center is far more usable and accessible (especially if it provide search). This also could mean that we have too many capplets. Every single time we have this discussion, someone points out that we have too many capplets. Despite some good efforts at annihilating and assimilating various silly ones, there are still too many for a usable menu. In the real world, outside of Pure GNOME, distributor and 3rd-party (Java springs to mind) added capplets make the menu more unusable. Given that a) GNOME still has too many capplets, and b) there are additional ones that will always be added to the menu, I think making access to them as usable as possible is a laudable goal. Reducing the number of capplets is still a laudable goal, but hasn't solved this problem in the past. -- Andrew ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Replacing control center menus
On Ter, 2006-12-12 at 17:31 +, Andrew Sobala wrote: Jonathan Blandford wrote: On Tue, 2006-12-12 at 15:26 +0100, Étienne Bersac wrote: A menu longer that 10 entry is very painful. Often, Gnome properties menu is about 20 entry when you install some additionnal softwares. Gnome is the only desktop which keep using this outdated control-center. A control center is far more usable and accessible (especially if it provide search). This also could mean that we have too many capplets. Every single time we have this discussion, someone points out that we have too many capplets. Despite some good efforts at annihilating and assimilating various silly ones, there are still too many for a usable menu. In the real world, outside of Pure GNOME, distributor and 3rd-party (Java springs to mind) added capplets make the menu more unusable. Given that a) GNOME still has too many capplets, and b) there are additional ones that will always be added to the menu, I think making access to them as usable as possible is a laudable goal. Reducing the number of capplets is still a laudable goal, but hasn't solved this problem in the past. I see a _lot_ of room for merging capplets with a single glance. For instance (i'm sure there's others I missed): 1- keyboard, keyboard shortcuts, SCIM input method, and mouse could be merged into a single input devices 2- menus toolbars, fonts, theme = applications aspect 3- sreen resolution, screensaver, desktop background = Display 4- PamOS devices, and removable drives and media = external devices (or something) 5- *Everything non-GNOME*, move into a separate Other submenu. Else if you want searchable capplets we already have deskbar. -- Gustavo J. A. M. Carneiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] The universe is always one step beyond logic. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Replacing control center menus
On Tue, 2006-12-12 at 17:33 +, Thomas Wood wrote: Gustavo J. A. M. Carneiro wrote: On Ter, 2006-12-12 at 11:51 -0500, Jonathan Blandford wrote: On Tue, 2006-12-12 at 15:26 +0100, Étienne Bersac wrote: A menu longer that 10 entry is very painful. Often, Gnome properties menu is about 20 entry when you install some additionnal softwares. Gnome is the only desktop which keep using this outdated control-center. A control center is far more usable and accessible (especially if it provide search). This also could mean that we have too many capplets. Agreed. But even if we can't get away from a multitude of capplets, there's an alternative solution: add an extra level of preferences categories, as we do for the applications menu. Four clicks to get to a preference window? Sounds a bit excessive. We had the discussion about the number of capplets already on the control center list. It was generally agreed that it would be nice to merge some of them, but (as far as I know) all except one of the suggestions had problems. And after that, the biggest issue is finding some developers with enough time to actually do the work. I do think using a shell window is easier than a menu, especially when it has search and filter features. It is also likely to be more familiar to users coming from other desktops. But what is being used for the search functionality? Beagle? Time to go buy a super-computer so I can change the sensitivity of my mouse :-) I know that search/tag/filtering is the hot topic, but how is that better here? Someone mentioned 4 mouse clicks to get to an applet is ridiculous. With a window that needs searching, we are talking a mouse click, wait for application to load, multiple keyboard presses, another mouse click, then you are where you want to be. That is a lot more back and forth between the keyboard and mouse than a menu. Jon ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Replacing control center menus
Jon Nettleton wrote: On Tue, 2006-12-12 at 17:33 +, Thomas Wood wrote: Gustavo J. A. M. Carneiro wrote: On Ter, 2006-12-12 at 11:51 -0500, Jonathan Blandford wrote: On Tue, 2006-12-12 at 15:26 +0100, Étienne Bersac wrote: A menu longer that 10 entry is very painful. Often, Gnome properties menu is about 20 entry when you install some additionnal softwares. Gnome is the only desktop which keep using this outdated control-center. A control center is far more usable and accessible (especially if it provide search). This also could mean that we have too many capplets. Agreed. But even if we can't get away from a multitude of capplets, there's an alternative solution: add an extra level of preferences categories, as we do for the applications menu. Four clicks to get to a preference window? Sounds a bit excessive. We had the discussion about the number of capplets already on the control center list. It was generally agreed that it would be nice to merge some of them, but (as far as I know) all except one of the suggestions had problems. And after that, the biggest issue is finding some developers with enough time to actually do the work. I do think using a shell window is easier than a menu, especially when it has search and filter features. It is also likely to be more familiar to users coming from other desktops. But what is being used for the search functionality? Beagle? Time to go buy a super-computer so I can change the sensitivity of my mouse :-) I know that search/tag/filtering is the hot topic, but how is that better here? Please dont dismiss this important technology because one implementation is currently sub-optimal for your needs You dont need a super computer or tons of ram or Mono/Java (or any other VM) to run search/tag/filtering - just use a sensible search engine such as tracker which is written in C and designed for running on low end machines (every other competing OS search system I know of is written in a native language as well). Of course any search solution used here should be open ended but I expect the default should be no search until at least tracker gets into GNOME :) (Tracker is still under proposal for Gnome 2.18) -- Mr Jamie McCracken http://jamiemcc.livejournal.com/ ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Replacing control center menus
On Tue, 2006-12-12 at 16:40 +0100, Murray Cumming wrote: On Tue, 2006-12-12 at 15:26 +0100, Étienne Bersac wrote: A menu longer that 10 entry is very painful. Too menu preferences items is painful whether it's in a menu or a shell window. I doubt that this new UI helps much with that, though I haven't seen a screenshot. Combining control panels will still be necessary. On that note, I'll just add my usual gripe with categorized control center shells (including Apple's) that it's generally harder to find things when you have to scan in three dimensions (headings first, then top-to-bottom and left-to-right) rather than just one (top-to-bottom)-- and if you don't know what category the thing you're looking for is in, you can add on an extra bit of scouting around. If the shell ever needs scrollbars as well, we're probably just doomed :) A good search facility will help in some situations, but people rarely head straight for the search when it looks like it should be easy to find what they're looking for (as indeed it does in an unscrolling, nicely-arranged window full of icons). So by the time they've looked for an icon and then searched instead, they might have found it quicker if they'd just kept looking, which, by reinforcing positional memory, would have helped them find it quicker the next time. (That's one thing Apple's system preferences search does get right compared to, say, Ubuntu's similarly-categorized Add to Panel dialog-- in the latter, things disappear and move around as you type, meaning you don't really learn where the thing you're searching for was actually located, which would have made it easier to find the next time.) As others have said, there's also the question of how much sense it makes to have to fire up a whole intermediate application just to (more often than not) change one setting in one capplet. (Perhaps Novell have some good data about the typical everyday usage of capplets they could share?) Cheeri, Calum. -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Java Desktop System Group http://ie.sun.com +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Replacing control center menus
Hi, On Tue, 2006-12-12 at 12:57 -0500, Jon Nettleton wrote: On Tue, 2006-12-12 at 17:33 +, Thomas Wood wrote: I do think using a shell window is easier than a menu, especially when it has search and filter features. It is also likely to be more familiar to users coming from other desktops. But what is being used for the search functionality? Beagle? If you're referring to the control center/application browser shell we shipped in SLED, it doesn't use Beagle for the search. It keeps all the desktop entries in memory and filters them down as the user types in the search. Time to go buy a super-computer so I can change the sensitivity of my mouse :-) You may want to try a newer version. 0.2.14, due out later this week, has a lot of performance improvements. It's always been our position that if Beagle interferes with your normal system usage, it's a bug. So please use Bugzilla to let us know of any problems. Thanks, Joe ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Replacing control center menus
Le mardi 12 décembre 2006 à 17:33 +, Thomas Wood a écrit : But even if we can't get away from a multitude of capplets, there's an alternative solution: add an extra level of preferences categories, as we do for the applications menu. Four clicks to get to a preference window? Sounds a bit excessive. With a shell window, that makes even more. We had the discussion about the number of capplets already on the control center list. It was generally agreed that it would be nice to merge some of them, but (as far as I know) all except one of the suggestions had problems. And after that, the biggest issue is finding some developers with enough time to actually do the work. Well, some of them already have enough time to write a shell to handle them :) More seriously, merging some capplets is badly needed in all cases. Some of them simply need to be removed from the menu: gstreamer-properties, cddb-slave2-properties, background-properties, gdmphotosetup, nautilus-file-management-properties. For others, it is hard to justify, from a user POV, to have separate capplets for keyboard, mouse, keyboard accessibility and keyboard shortcuts. Same for sound-properties and gstreamer-properties. Or for the screensaver and gnome-power-manager capplets. Or for all interface-related capplets: metacity, fonts, menustoolbars. I'm not saying this is easy, especially for those coming from different modules, but this would reduce the current number from 24 to 12. Which is quite an acceptable number. -- Josselin Mouette/\./\ Do you have any more insane proposals for me? signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Replacing control center menus
Josselin Mouette wrote: I'm not saying this is easy, especially for those coming from different modules, but this would reduce the current number from 24 to 12. Which is quite an acceptable number. Hear hear! also remember that frequently settings can be moved to context-appropriate locations such as the file manager or other situation where the setting arises, instead of dumping all settings in a big central set of prefs dialogs. Havoc ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Replacing control center menus
quote who=Andrew Sobala Reducing the number of capplets is still a laudable goal, but hasn't solved this problem in the past. Actually, it has. But recently, no one has taken the challenge to do a big review and refactor (PreferencesRevisited on the wiki). So while it has been raised, it has not been done, but that doesn't invalidate it as something we should do. :-) - Jeff -- linux.conf.au 2007: Sydney, Australia http://lca2007.linux.org.au/ It's like having someone say to you, 'You should get back together with your first wife. You guys were good together'. It's not that simple. - David Byrne on Talking Heads ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
