Re: Why do GNOMEdevelopers almost exclusively use git mirrors and for example not bzr mirrors
On 22/04/2008, Jeff Waugh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: quote who=Elijah Newren On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 4:55 AM, Olav Vitters [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 11:45:34AM +0100, Scott James Remnant wrote: (At least, that's what I understand) Indeed. This might be hard to do within Bzr (IIRC what Elijah said), due to repository format / design. No, I mispoke in the email you're referring to. bzr's repository format does not prevent such a feature (in fact, they likely already have most needed capabilities), and shared repositories are much closer to what I'd like than I realized at that time. The UI design does seem somewhat antithetical to such a feature, but perhaps that could be changed. Do bzr looms (recently released extension) satisfy the requirement explained in the earlier email? The Bazaar loom plugin lets you manage a stack of branches (similar to quilt, stgit or mq), so isn't quite the same as the internal branches in mercurial or git. You could probably remove code from the plugin to get something similar though (the bits designed to support the sequence-of-branches workflow). James. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Why do GNOMEdevelopers almost exclusively use git mirrors and for example not bzr mirrors
Il giorno ven, 25/04/2008 alle 23.29 +0800, James Henstridge ha scritto: On 22/04/2008, Jeff Waugh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do bzr looms (recently released extension) satisfy the requirement explained in the earlier email? The Bazaar loom plugin lets you manage a stack of branches (similar to quilt, stgit or mq), so isn't quite the same as the internal branches in mercurial or git. You could probably remove code from the plugin to get something similar though (the bits designed to support the sequence-of-branches workflow). If I remember the original email, probably you're asking for this blueprint implemented: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/bzr/+spec/nested-tree-support Although it is flagged as Good progress, the URL pointed by the blueprint seems a little bit outdated to me. I'm putting Wouter in CC so maybe he can shed some light on the status of this blueprint, and give a tentative ETA information. Cheers, Matteo signature.asc Description: Questa è una parte del messaggio firmata digitalmente ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Why do GNOMEdevelopers almost exclusively use git mirrors and for example not bzr mirrors
quote who=Elijah Newren On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 4:55 AM, Olav Vitters [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 11:45:34AM +0100, Scott James Remnant wrote: (At least, that's what I understand) Indeed. This might be hard to do within Bzr (IIRC what Elijah said), due to repository format / design. No, I mispoke in the email you're referring to. bzr's repository format does not prevent such a feature (in fact, they likely already have most needed capabilities), and shared repositories are much closer to what I'd like than I realized at that time. The UI design does seem somewhat antithetical to such a feature, but perhaps that could be changed. Do bzr looms (recently released extension) satisfy the requirement explained in the earlier email? - Jeff -- OSCON 2008: Portland OR, USA http://conferences.oreilly.com/oscon/ o/~ In spite of all those keystrokes, you're addicted to vim. *ka-ching!* o/~ ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Why do GNOMEdevelopers almost exclusively use git mirrors and for example not bzr mirrors
On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 08:35:54AM +0200, Jaap A. Haitsma wrote: I was just wondering why many GNOME developers are using git mirror and for example not a bzr mirror? If I for example read http://live.gnome.org/DistributedSCM I have the feeling that bzr would also be a very good fit. However I haven't seen any gnome.org project in a bzr mirror while of many projects there exists git mirrors. The same could be said for Mercurial. Are there any mercurial mirrors of GNOME out there? Elliot -- Elliot Peele [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Why do GNOMEdevelopers almost exclusively use git mirrors and for example not bzr mirrors
On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 08:14:50 +0100, Ross Burton scripst: Well, there are bzr mirrors (I've got a few SJ branches in bzr for example), and don't forget the huge Launchpad mirror of GNOME. Also, bzr-svn in my experience isn't as bulletproof as git-svn which has put me off doing all of my svn work in bzr repositories just yet. Actually it did fail me -- libsyncml doesn't work with git-svn. Matěj -- The content of this message is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 License, Some Rights Reserved. http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/us/ ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Why do GNOMEdevelopers almost exclusively use git mirrors and for example not bzr mirrors
On Tue, 2008-04-08 at 08:35 +0200, Jaap A. Haitsma wrote: I was just wondering why many GNOME developers are using git mirror and for example not a bzr mirror? If I for example read http://live.gnome.org/DistributedSCM I have the feeling that bzr would also be a very good fit. However I haven't seen any gnome.org project in a bzr mirror while of many projects there exists git mirrors. Well, there are bzr mirrors (I've got a few SJ branches in bzr for example), and don't forget the huge Launchpad mirror of GNOME. Also, bzr-svn in my experience isn't as bulletproof as git-svn which has put me off doing all of my svn work in bzr repositories just yet. Ross -- Ross Burton mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] www: http://www.burtonini.com./ PGP Fingerprint: 1A21 F5B0 D8D0 CFE3 81D4 E25A 2D09 E447 D0B4 33DF signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Why do GNOMEdevelopers almost exclusively use git mirrors and for example not bzr mirrors
2008/4/8, Ross Burton [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Also, bzr-svn in my experience isn't as bulletproof as git-svn which has put me off doing all of my svn work in bzr repositories just yet. Hehe, that sounds like that sheet of paper isn't as bulletproof as this tin foil but I suppose git-svn isn't any more as fragile as my image of it... I've used it with svn trunk succesfully, but never dared to try branches. Is it already usable with svn branches? -- Kalle Vahlman, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Powered by http://movial.fi Interesting stuff at http://syslog.movial.fi ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Why do GNOMEdevelopers almost exclusively use git mirrors and for example not bzr mirrors
On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 12:08 PM, Olav Vitters [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 08:14:50AM +0100, Ross Burton wrote: On Tue, 2008-04-08 at 08:35 +0200, Jaap A. Haitsma wrote: I was just wondering why many GNOME developers are using git mirror and for example not a bzr mirror? If I for example read http://live.gnome.org/DistributedSCM I have the feeling that bzr would also be a very good fit. However I haven't seen any gnome.org project in a bzr mirror while of many projects there exists git mirrors. I've been talking with Elijah to determine what is needed in a DSCM. Basically, Bzr should be enhanced/improved to have branches in one checkout directory. For some reason this is important (for real developers.. not me:). E.g. DSCM will likely mean lots of small (private) branches; loads more than with a central system. I never really got to understand why this is so important personally, I can just affirm that is is just a matter if habit. I was used to having all the branches in the same repository while I was using Monotone (few years ago), when I later switched to use bzr I got slightly confused, but now I find the 1 branch / directory far more user friendly, it even encourages people to have a branched development workflow (which is what we want don't we?), because all the branches are visible, they are no longer just mere live tags as in git. There are other things as well, but Git has similar drawbacks, so it isn't Bzr specific. I completely agree with you concerning this, there are many drawbacks, and the most important one to me is that many users are used to centralized workflows. However there is a very nice feature in bzr that removes this drawback: bound branches. Note that I look for a DSCM system, not Git. It might be Git, but I haven't decided (DSCM development is pretty fast, so perfect system changes pretty often). Git imho is a good repository format, but the required frontend to use its power efficiently whil remaining user friendly is not there yet. Well, there are bzr mirrors (I've got a few SJ branches in bzr for example), and don't forget the huge Launchpad mirror of GNOME. Also, bzr-svn in my experience isn't as bulletproof as git-svn which has put me off doing all of my svn work in bzr repositories just yet. This doesn't really matter when GNOME uses Bzr/Git/hg. Then '$RCS-svn' link is not important anymore. bzr-svn in the same way as hg-svn have been plagued with the python-svn binding leak problems, also bzr-svn and git-svn are not really comparable, since git-svn is a separate tool with its own command set (correct me if I am wrong), while bzr-svn is a plugin that adds svn support to bzr, and thus allows you to use transparently all the available bzr commands on your repository. ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Why do GNOMEdevelopers almost exclusively use git mirrors and for example not bzr mirrors
On Tue, 2008-04-08 at 12:05 +0200, Ole André Vadla Ravnås wrote: There's two things that would need to be resolved before we'd be able to use git: 1) A native Windows frontend that doesn't require cygwin. http://code.google.com/p/msysgit/ 2) Pluggable API, being able to extend/influence existing commands and functionality. the amount of low-level operations available to compose complex operations is quite high; I don't think that changing the way a known command behaves under the nose of the developer is not a good idea, when dealing with data under revision control. ciao, Emmanuele. -- Emmanuele Bassi, W: http://www.emmanuelebassi.net B: http://log.emmanuelebassi.net ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Why do GNOMEdevelopers almost exclusively use git mirrors and for example not bzr mirrors
On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 11:08 AM, Olav Vitters [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 08:14:50AM +0100, Ross Burton wrote: On Tue, 2008-04-08 at 08:35 +0200, Jaap A. Haitsma wrote: I was just wondering why many GNOME developers are using git mirror and for example not a bzr mirror? If I for example read http://live.gnome.org/DistributedSCM I have the feeling that bzr would also be a very good fit. However I haven't seen any gnome.org project in a bzr mirror while of many projects there exists git mirrors. I've been talking with Elijah to determine what is needed in a DSCM. Basically, Bzr should be enhanced/improved to have branches in one checkout directory. For some reason this is important (for real developers.. not me:). E.g. DSCM will likely mean lots of small (private) branches; loads more than with a central system. Like this? http://bazaar-vcs.org/SharedRepositoryTutorial From a blog post 2 years ago: One of the new features comming up in the next release of bzr is support for shared repositories. This provides a way to reduce disk space needed to store multiple related branches. http://blogs.gnome.org/jamesh/2006/04/23/repositories-in-bzr/ ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Why do GNOMEdevelopers almost exclusively use git mirrors and for example not bzr mirrors
On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 08:14:50AM +0100, Ross Burton wrote: On Tue, 2008-04-08 at 08:35 +0200, Jaap A. Haitsma wrote: I was just wondering why many GNOME developers are using git mirror and for example not a bzr mirror? If I for example read http://live.gnome.org/DistributedSCM I have the feeling that bzr would also be a very good fit. However I haven't seen any gnome.org project in a bzr mirror while of many projects there exists git mirrors. I've been talking with Elijah to determine what is needed in a DSCM. Basically, Bzr should be enhanced/improved to have branches in one checkout directory. For some reason this is important (for real developers.. not me:). E.g. DSCM will likely mean lots of small (private) branches; loads more than with a central system. There are other things as well, but Git has similar drawbacks, so it isn't Bzr specific. Note that I look for a DSCM system, not Git. It might be Git, but I haven't decided (DSCM development is pretty fast, so perfect system changes pretty often). Well, there are bzr mirrors (I've got a few SJ branches in bzr for example), and don't forget the huge Launchpad mirror of GNOME. Also, bzr-svn in my experience isn't as bulletproof as git-svn which has put me off doing all of my svn work in bzr repositories just yet. This doesn't really matter when GNOME uses Bzr/Git/hg. Then '$RCS-svn' link is not important anymore. -- Regards, Olav ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Why do GNOMEdevelopers almost exclusively use git mirrors and for example not bzr mirrors
On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 11:13:36AM +0200, Étienne Bersac wrote: I also find bzr not as robust as git in general. Without specific details or bugreports, above is not useful. -- Regards, Olav ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Why do GNOMEdevelopers almost exclusively use git mirrors and for example not bzr mirrors
On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 11:45:34AM +0100, Scott James Remnant wrote: (At least, that's what I understand) Indeed. This might be hard to do within Bzr (IIRC what Elijah said), due to repository format / design. -- Regards, Olav ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Why do GNOMEdevelopers almost exclusively use git mirrors and for example not bzr mirrors
Il giorno mar, 08/04/2008 alle 08.35 +0200, Jaap A. Haitsma ha scritto: Hi, I was just wondering why many GNOME developers are using git mirror and for example not a bzr mirror? If I for example read http://live.gnome.org/DistributedSCM I have the feeling that bzr would also be a very good fit. However I haven't seen any gnome.org project in a bzr mirror while of many projects there exists git mirrors. gedit has a bzr mirror here http://www.gnome.org/~pborelli/bzr/gedit/ Jaap ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Why do GNOMEdevelopers almost exclusively use git mirrors and for example not bzr mirrors
Hi, On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 8:35 AM, Jaap A. Haitsma [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I was just wondering why many GNOME developers are using git mirror and for example not a bzr mirror? If I for example read http://live.gnome.org/DistributedSCM I have the feeling that bzr would also be a very good fit. However I haven't seen any gnome.org project in a bzr mirror while of many projects there exists git mirrors. +1 We're using bazaar at work, where we have a continuous integration system built around it. You basically publish a set of branches (one branch per module, i.e. glib) and some build machines will temporarily merge in the changes, check whether it builds, run all the unit-tests, and finally a black box test. If all went well the changes get merged into mainline. We've been using bazaar for this for about 6 months so far, and it's been working like a charm. The things I really like about bzr is that it's very portable, it's pluggable, has a nice API and doesn't exclude developers stuck on Windows. There's two things that would need to be resolved before we'd be able to use git: 1) A native Windows frontend that doesn't require cygwin. 2) Pluggable API, being able to extend/influence existing commands and functionality. Cheers, Ole André ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Why do GNOMEdevelopers almost exclusively use git mirrors and for example not bzr mirrors
On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 12:14 PM, Emmanuele Bassi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 2008-04-08 at 12:05 +0200, Ole André Vadla Ravnås wrote: There's two things that would need to be resolved before we'd be able to use git: 1) A native Windows frontend that doesn't require cygwin. http://code.google.com/p/msysgit/ Please let me rephrase: 1) A native Windows frontend, not shell-scripts relying on bash, coreutils, perl, etc. that implicitly make you dependant on an emulation layer with its performance and integration issues. This is also the same reason why autotools is useless for real development on Windows, but that's a different discussion. 2) Pluggable API, being able to extend/influence existing commands and functionality. the amount of low-level operations available to compose complex operations is quite high; I don't think that changing the way a known command behaves under the nose of the developer is not a good idea, when dealing with data under revision control. Well, changing low-level details is one thing, extending high-level commands is another and the one I'm thinking about here (adding options for example). I really appreciate having a revision control system that comes with an API, I don't consider shell-scripts an API in this case as it's not flexible enough and has too many drawbacks for non-POSIX systems. Cheers, Ole André ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Why do GNOMEdevelopers almost exclusively use git mirrors and for example not bzr mirrors
On Tue, 2008-04-08 at 11:17 +0100, John Carr wrote: On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 11:08 AM, Olav Vitters [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 08:14:50AM +0100, Ross Burton wrote: On Tue, 2008-04-08 at 08:35 +0200, Jaap A. Haitsma wrote: I was just wondering why many GNOME developers are using git mirror and for example not a bzr mirror? If I for example read http://live.gnome.org/DistributedSCM I have the feeling that bzr would also be a very good fit. However I haven't seen any gnome.org project in a bzr mirror while of many projects there exists git mirrors. I've been talking with Elijah to determine what is needed in a DSCM. Basically, Bzr should be enhanced/improved to have branches in one checkout directory. For some reason this is important (for real developers.. not me:). E.g. DSCM will likely mean lots of small (private) branches; loads more than with a central system. Like this? http://bazaar-vcs.org/SharedRepositoryTutorial No. This is multiple branches sharing a single repository (which is usually elsewhere), a way to save on disk space. What is generally wanted is the ability for a bzr working tree to be trivially switched between the different branches available in the bzr repository (which is nominally in the same .bzr directory). $ bzr branch lp:wibble/trunk wibble $ cd wibble $ bzr branches **master bug1234 bug5678 $ bzr switch bug1234 (At least, that's what I understand) Scott -- Scott James Remnant [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Why do GNOMEdevelopers almost exclusively use git mirrors and for example not bzr mirrors
On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 12:55 PM, Olav Vitters [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 11:45:34AM +0100, Scott James Remnant wrote: (At least, that's what I understand) Indeed. This might be hard to do within Bzr (IIRC what Elijah said), due to repository format / design. I might not agree on this one simply for the following reason: - Bzr has pluggable repository and branches formats Here is a small quote: asabil hi all is it technically feasible to come up with a repository/branch format that allows internal branches ? in a similar manner to git ? james_w asabil: yes, it is. james_w there is some debate about the best way of doing that, but it is possible. -- Ali ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Why do GNOMEdevelopers almost exclusively use git mirrors and for example not bzr mirrors
On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 01:48:28PM +0200, Ali Sabil wrote: On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 12:55 PM, Olav Vitters [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 11:45:34AM +0100, Scott James Remnant wrote: (At least, that's what I understand) Indeed. This might be hard to do within Bzr (IIRC what Elijah said), due to repository format / design. I might not agree on this one simply for the following reason: - Bzr has pluggable repository and branches formats Ah, then after everything has been investigated, it should be a good idea to make a request to add missing stuff. One thing I like about Bzr/Hg is that these have bindings for Python... plus it is understandable. -- Regards, Olav ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Why do GNOMEdevelopers almost exclusively use git mirrors and for example not bzr mirrors
On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 12:35 AM, Jaap A. Haitsma [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I was just wondering why many GNOME developers are using git mirror and for example not a bzr mirror? If I for example read http://live.gnome.org/DistributedSCM I have the feeling that bzr would also be a very good fit. However I haven't seen any gnome.org project in a bzr mirror while of many projects there exists git mirrors. It can more or less be explained here: http://blogs.gnome.org/newren/2007/11/17/adoption-of-various-vcses/ People learn about good tools and practices from other developers. bzr was far too slow to be used on big projects for many years, and during that time, git came along and impressed many people with speed and some of its features. Thus, developers from big projects started adopting it. Then other developers on those big projects started looking at it. Then developers of related big projects started looking at it. linux kernel-xorg-lowlevel gnome/kde library maintainers Meanwhile, while bzr had superb usability from an interface point of view, it was (and remember, I am talking past tense) painful to use even on small personal projects simply due to the amount of time operations took; there was no way it could be used for large projects due to these time issues and thus it was cut off from a lot of the same network effects. An additional effect causing some of the adoption you've seen were the svn bridges. bzr's would require a number of patches to subversion and still have problems with larger repositories, while git's would work -- once you figured the commands out (but for those working on larger projects, they use the version control system a higher percentage of their day and thus could spend their effort learning the less friendly interface). bzr is much faster now and on par with hg git...but it's way behind the curve in terms of adoption; it's highest penetration is probably within gnome users, but even there as you note in your email you find it lagging and often not used on the larger projects where it could cause more network effects. While perhaps it could be...most such projects have already adopted git. There are many compelling reasons to move away from svn, there's not so many for switching between bzr/hg/git. Does that help? Elijah ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Why do GNOMEdevelopers almost exclusively use git mirrors and for example not bzr mirrors
2008-04-08 klockan 08:35 skrev Jaap A. Haitsma: I was just wondering why many GNOME developers are using git mirror and for example not a bzr mirror? If I for example read http://live.gnome.org/DistributedSCM I have the feeling that bzr would also be a very good fit. However I haven't seen any gnome.org project in a bzr mirror while of many projects there exists git mirrors. Gnome Specimen is maintained in bzr :) mvrgr, Wouter -- :wq mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] web http://uwstopia.nl you gotta hold on to something you believe -- electric light orchestra signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
Re: Why do GNOMEdevelopers almost exclusively use git mirrors and for example not bzr mirrors
On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 4:55 AM, Olav Vitters [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 11:45:34AM +0100, Scott James Remnant wrote: (At least, that's what I understand) Indeed. This might be hard to do within Bzr (IIRC what Elijah said), due to repository format / design. No, I mispoke in the email you're referring to. bzr's repository format does not prevent such a feature (in fact, they likely already have most needed capabilities), and shared repositories are much closer to what I'd like than I realized at that time. The UI design does seem somewhat antithetical to such a feature, but perhaps that could be changed. Elijah ___ desktop-devel-list mailing list desktop-devel-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
