Re: [discuss] How we support our users on Slack / Mailing list / StackOverflow

[Pablo Estrada]

Hi all,
I've a pull request[1] to try to improve how the Beam site guides people to
these channels. Would someone take a look?

The PR encourages users to use SO and user@. Depending on others' opinion,
we can also mention slack.
The PR also attempts to improve the bottom links on the website for users
looking for Events and/or Support.

[1] - https://github.com/apache/beam/pull/9875

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 8:28 AM Ismaël Mejía  wrote:

> Sorry for late answer. The issue here is that once we have a
> communication channel, users expect
> answers on it. Python SDK is getting momentum and we need to serve users
> where
> they are (as mentioned by others above).
>
> One strong advantage of 'real-time' communication (Slack/IRC) is that it is
> better suited for collaboration, and to create community bonds, think for
> example of how many people who answered a question you were looking for at
> stackoverflow you can remember by their 'name', versus the people with
> whom you
> have interacted in a short conversation in an IRC-like channel. I mention
> this
> because this is a way to make users welcomed and many times a first step
> towards
> contribution (for example the 'would you be willing to add this to the docs
> case').
>
> StackOverflow is probably the most 'scalable' system because of many
> aspects
> like being indexed in a better way by search engines helping future users
> to
> find answers quickly, but it is also not perfect, the reputation system is
> basically elitist against casual people answering questions. In any case
> there
> is value in encouraging moving some answers from Slack to SO, but there is
> also
> value in improving our own website docs so this should probably be done
> case by
> case.
>
> A first approach is probably to document (and recommend) to users that if
> they
> don't get their questions answered in slack to better ask in SO or the user
> mailing list.
>
> I personally think there is value in getting more people involved in
> 'real-time'
> communications. Of course this is probably not for everyone, I understand
> that
> people may not want to do this to avoid being interrupted or for other
> reasons,
> but this is a trade-off to pay not only to help people but eventually to
> grow the community as in the go-lang case Robert mentioned so it is
> probably
> worth considering.
>
> On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 3:27 AM Robert Burke  wrote:
> >
> > For the Go SDK, emailing the dev list or asking on Slack are probably
> the best ways to get an answer from me. I'm not in the habit to search for
> open Go SDK questions on stack overflow right now, but will chip in if
> they're pointed out to me
> >
> > As Alexey mentions, Slack largely works for quick back and forths with
> community members, especially if both folks are awake at the same time. Eg.
> I've been handling a few questions there, and helping the user in question
> even get a few quick fix PRs in, making the SDK better for everyone.
> > On the other hand, I can be more responsive on beam-go because it's low
> enough traffic I can be notified of every question/response. I look forward
> to when there's enough traffic there I can turn that off. :D
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Sep 10, 2019, 4:45 PM Alexey Romanenko 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Pablo, thank you for raising this question.
> >>
> >> I can’t say for Python, but as a someone, who tries to keep an eye on
> Java SDK related questions on ML/Slack/SO for a while, I’d say that Slack
> is not very effective for this.
> >> There are several reasons for that:
> >> - People tend to expect a quick feedback on Slack which is not
> happening all the time, especially, for not evident questions where you
> need some time to provide an answer. Also, timezones difference play its
> role in terms of reaction time.
> >> - Discussions are not always happened inside Slack threads, so it could
> be messed up with the messages of other questions/topics and it becomes
> difficult to follow.
> >> - It’s not so easy to search for similar issues and provide quick link
> with already answered question.
> >>
> >> So, I’d say that Slack is perfect to discuss quick and urgent questions
> but not sure it should be placed on the first place as a users support
> thing. IMHO, we need to redirect users to user@ or SO for that (up to
> them to choose). Though, the more important thing is to regulalrly keep
> track of non answered questions there and do our best to minimise this
> number.
> >>
> >>
> >> On 9 Sep 2019, at 11:38, Kyle Weaver  wrote:
> >>
> >> I pinned a message to #beam reminding people of the user@, but pinned
> messages aren't immediately visible. We might be better off editing the
> topic, which always appears at the top of the channel, to include
> https://beam.apache.org/community/contact-us/ or links to user@ and SO.
> We should also add the same topic to the #beam-java and #beam-python
> channels, which currently don't have any topic.
> >>
> >> Kyle Weaver | Software Engineer | github.com/ibzib 

Re: [discuss] How we support our users on Slack / Mailing list / StackOverflow

[Ismaël Mejía]

Sorry for late answer. The issue here is that once we have a
communication channel, users expect
answers on it. Python SDK is getting momentum and we need to serve users where
they are (as mentioned by others above).

One strong advantage of 'real-time' communication (Slack/IRC) is that it is
better suited for collaboration, and to create community bonds, think for
example of how many people who answered a question you were looking for at
stackoverflow you can remember by their 'name', versus the people with whom you
have interacted in a short conversation in an IRC-like channel. I mention this
because this is a way to make users welcomed and many times a first step towards
contribution (for example the 'would you be willing to add this to the docs
case').

StackOverflow is probably the most 'scalable' system because of many aspects
like being indexed in a better way by search engines helping future users to
find answers quickly, but it is also not perfect, the reputation system is
basically elitist against casual people answering questions. In any case there
is value in encouraging moving some answers from Slack to SO, but there is also
value in improving our own website docs so this should probably be done case by
case.

A first approach is probably to document (and recommend) to users that if they
don't get their questions answered in slack to better ask in SO or the user
mailing list.

I personally think there is value in getting more people involved in 'real-time'
communications. Of course this is probably not for everyone, I understand that
people may not want to do this to avoid being interrupted or for other reasons,
but this is a trade-off to pay not only to help people but eventually to
grow the community as in the go-lang case Robert mentioned so it is probably
worth considering.

On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 3:27 AM Robert Burke  wrote:
>
> For the Go SDK, emailing the dev list or asking on Slack are probably the 
> best ways to get an answer from me. I'm not in the habit to search for open 
> Go SDK questions on stack overflow right now, but will chip in if they're 
> pointed out to me
>
> As Alexey mentions, Slack largely works for quick back and forths with 
> community members, especially if both folks are awake at the same time. Eg. 
> I've been handling a few questions there, and helping the user in question 
> even get a few quick fix PRs in, making the SDK better for everyone.
> On the other hand, I can be more responsive on beam-go because it's low 
> enough traffic I can be notified of every question/response. I look forward 
> to when there's enough traffic there I can turn that off. :D
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 10, 2019, 4:45 PM Alexey Romanenko  
> wrote:
>>
>> Pablo, thank you for raising this question.
>>
>> I can’t say for Python, but as a someone, who tries to keep an eye on Java 
>> SDK related questions on ML/Slack/SO for a while, I’d say that Slack is not 
>> very effective for this.
>> There are several reasons for that:
>> - People tend to expect a quick feedback on Slack which is not happening all 
>> the time, especially, for not evident questions where you need some time to 
>> provide an answer. Also, timezones difference play its role in terms of 
>> reaction time.
>> - Discussions are not always happened inside Slack threads, so it could be 
>> messed up with the messages of other questions/topics and it becomes 
>> difficult to follow.
>> - It’s not so easy to search for similar issues and provide quick link with 
>> already answered question.
>>
>> So, I’d say that Slack is perfect to discuss quick and urgent questions but 
>> not sure it should be placed on the first place as a users support thing. 
>> IMHO, we need to redirect users to user@ or SO for that (up to them to 
>> choose). Though, the more important thing is to regulalrly keep track of non 
>> answered questions there and do our best to minimise this number.
>>
>>
>> On 9 Sep 2019, at 11:38, Kyle Weaver  wrote:
>>
>> I pinned a message to #beam reminding people of the user@, but pinned 
>> messages aren't immediately visible. We might be better off editing the 
>> topic, which always appears at the top of the channel, to include 
>> https://beam.apache.org/community/contact-us/ or links to user@ and SO. We 
>> should also add the same topic to the #beam-java and #beam-python channels, 
>> which currently don't have any topic.
>>
>> Kyle Weaver | Software Engineer | github.com/ibzib | kcwea...@google.com
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 9:06 AM Pablo Estrada  wrote:
>>>
>>> +Ismaël Mejía can you share your impressions from Slack? Do you think 
>>> Java/Python/other users get appropriate support there?
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 7:16 PM Ahmet Altay  wrote:

 I agree Slack can be used by Beam users and it would be good to meet users 
 where they are. If I understand correctly, the issue Pablo is raising is 
 that there are not enough people online in Slack that can answer python 
 questions. We 

Re: [discuss] How we support our users on Slack / Mailing list / StackOverflow

[Robert Burke]

For the Go SDK, emailing the dev list or asking on Slack are probably the
best ways to get an answer from me. I'm not in the habit to search for open
Go SDK questions on stack overflow right now, but will chip in if they're
pointed out to me

As Alexey mentions, Slack largely works for quick back and forths with
community members, especially if both folks are awake at the same time. Eg.
I've been handling a few questions there, and helping the user in question
even get a few quick fix PRs in, making the SDK better for everyone.
On the other hand, I can be more responsive on beam-go because it's low
enough traffic I can be notified of every question/response. I look forward
to when there's enough traffic there I can turn that off. :D


On Tue, Sep 10, 2019, 4:45 PM Alexey Romanenko 
wrote:

> Pablo, thank you for raising this question.
>
> I can’t say for Python, but as a someone, who tries to keep an eye on Java
> SDK related questions on ML/Slack/SO for a while, I’d say that Slack is not
> very effective for this.
> There are several reasons for that:
> - People tend to expect a quick feedback on Slack which is not happening
> all the time, especially, for not evident questions where you need some
> time to provide an answer. Also, timezones difference play its role in
> terms of reaction time.
> - Discussions are not always happened inside Slack threads, so it could be
> messed up with the messages of other questions/topics and it becomes
> difficult to follow.
> - It’s not so easy to search for similar issues and provide quick link
> with already answered question.
>
> So, I’d say that Slack is perfect to discuss quick and urgent questions
> but not sure it should be placed on the first place as a users support
> thing. IMHO, we need to redirect users to user@ or SO for that (up to
> them to choose). Though, the more important thing is to regulalrly keep
> track of non answered questions there and do our best to minimise this
> number.
>
>
> On 9 Sep 2019, at 11:38, Kyle Weaver  wrote:
>
> I pinned a message to #beam reminding people of the user@, but pinned
> messages aren't immediately visible. We might be better off editing the
> topic, which always appears at the top of the channel, to include
> https://beam.apache.org/community/contact-us/ or links to user@ and SO.
> We should also add the same topic to the #beam-java and #beam-python
> channels, which currently don't have any topic.
>
> Kyle Weaver | Software Engineer | github.com/ibzib | kcwea...@google.com
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 9:06 AM Pablo Estrada  wrote:
>
>> +Ismaël Mejía  can you share your impressions from
>> Slack? Do you think Java/Python/other users get appropriate support there?
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 7:16 PM Ahmet Altay  wrote:
>>
>>> I agree Slack can be used by Beam users and it would be good to meet
>>> users where they are. If I understand correctly, the issue Pablo is raising
>>> is that there are not enough people online in Slack that can answer python
>>> questions. We also need to help people who ask questions and who can answer
>>> them find a common platform. Perhaps simply adding a subject in Slack chat
>>> rooms suggesting SO as an alternative question asking platform might
>>> improve the situation.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 5:45 PM Austin Bennett <
>>> whatwouldausti...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 I see no reason slack can't be suitable for Beam users -- other open
 source projects do utilize Slack for user chatter, too.  Though what it
 could be is different from how currently used.  There are 173 accounts in
 #beam-python, and a decent portion of recent conversations (at quick
 glance) look like they are users asking for advice (which maybe should be
 pointed to the Google Cloud Slack account...)

 I suggest meet users wherever they are (don't abandon slack), but that
 is from a community standpoint.  If people are metrics focused, that might
 be harder in slack and/or we can find ways to measure things for those that
 have benchmarks to hit.  I am willing to dig into Slack's API if desired,
 to surface/forward messages as useful.  Not sure how all that would look,
 open to figure it out.



 On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:47 PM Ahmet Altay  wrote:

> Both StackOverflow and mailing lists have better answer rates for
> python questions. Suggesting either one of them makes sense. I also find
> StackOverflow easier to use but that is a personal preference.  The
> original problem is that lack of support within Slack. Both mailing list
> and stackoverflow are already listed in the support page above Slack. How
> are we going to redirect these folks from Slack to SO or ML?
>
> Also, what is the profile of people on slack in general. I had the
> impression that it is more tuned for developer working on Beam to interact
> rather than for users to ask Beam questions. Is this accurate?
>
> Ahmet
>

Re: [discuss] How we support our users on Slack / Mailing list / StackOverflow

[Alexey Romanenko]

Pablo, thank you for raising this question.

I can’t say for Python, but as a someone, who tries to keep an eye on Java SDK 
related questions on ML/Slack/SO for a while, I’d say that Slack is not very 
effective for this. 
There are several reasons for that:
- People tend to expect a quick feedback on Slack which is not happening all 
the time, especially, for not evident questions where you need some time to 
provide an answer. Also, timezones difference play its role in terms of 
reaction time.
- Discussions are not always happened inside Slack threads, so it could be 
messed up with the messages of other questions/topics and it becomes difficult 
to follow. 
- It’s not so easy to search for similar issues and provide quick link with 
already answered question.

So, I’d say that Slack is perfect to discuss quick and urgent questions but not 
sure it should be placed on the first place as a users support thing. IMHO, we 
need to redirect users to user@ or SO for that (up to them to choose). Though, 
the more important thing is to regulalrly keep track of non answered questions 
there and do our best to minimise this number. 
 
> On 9 Sep 2019, at 11:38, Kyle Weaver  wrote:
> 
> I pinned a message to #beam reminding people of the user@, but pinned 
> messages aren't immediately visible. We might be better off editing the 
> topic, which always appears at the top of the channel, to include 
> https://beam.apache.org/community/contact-us/ 
>  or links to user@ and SO. We 
> should also add the same topic to the #beam-java and #beam-python channels, 
> which currently don't have any topic.
> 
> Kyle Weaver | Software Engineer | github.com/ibzib  
> | kcwea...@google.com 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 9:06 AM Pablo Estrada  > wrote:
> +Ismaël Mejía  can you share your impressions from 
> Slack? Do you think Java/Python/other users get appropriate support there?
> 
> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 7:16 PM Ahmet Altay  > wrote:
> I agree Slack can be used by Beam users and it would be good to meet users 
> where they are. If I understand correctly, the issue Pablo is raising is that 
> there are not enough people online in Slack that can answer python questions. 
> We also need to help people who ask questions and who can answer them find a 
> common platform. Perhaps simply adding a subject in Slack chat rooms 
> suggesting SO as an alternative question asking platform might improve the 
> situation.
> 
> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 5:45 PM Austin Bennett  > wrote:
> I see no reason slack can't be suitable for Beam users -- other open source 
> projects do utilize Slack for user chatter, too.  Though what it could be is 
> different from how currently used.  There are 173 accounts in #beam-python, 
> and a decent portion of recent conversations (at quick glance) look like they 
> are users asking for advice (which maybe should be pointed to the Google 
> Cloud Slack account...)
> 
> I suggest meet users wherever they are (don't abandon slack), but that is 
> from a community standpoint.  If people are metrics focused, that might be 
> harder in slack and/or we can find ways to measure things for those that have 
> benchmarks to hit.  I am willing to dig into Slack's API if desired, to 
> surface/forward messages as useful.  Not sure how all that would look, open 
> to figure it out.  
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:47 PM Ahmet Altay  > wrote:
> Both StackOverflow and mailing lists have better answer rates for python 
> questions. Suggesting either one of them makes sense. I also find 
> StackOverflow easier to use but that is a personal preference.  The original 
> problem is that lack of support within Slack. Both mailing list and 
> stackoverflow are already listed in the support page above Slack. How are we 
> going to redirect these folks from Slack to SO or ML? 
> 
> Also, what is the profile of people on slack in general. I had the impression 
> that it is more tuned for developer working on Beam to interact rather than 
> for users to ask Beam questions. Is this accurate?
> 
> Ahmet
> 
> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:41 PM Kenneth Knowles  > wrote:
> +1 to StackOverflow first, though I'm not important for Beam Python users. 
> Udi has a good point about discussions. If an SO question has a lot of back 
> and forth, or no response, then it is good to point to other channels the 
> user might try next.
> 
> Kenn
> 
> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 2:20 PM Robert Bradshaw  > wrote:
> I would also suggest SO as the best alternative, especially due to its
> indexability and searchability. If discussion is needed, the users
> list (my preference) or slack can be good options, and ideally the
> resolution is brought back to SO.
> 
> On Fri, 

Re: [discuss] How we support our users on Slack / Mailing list / StackOverflow

[Kyle Weaver]

I pinned a message to #beam reminding people of the user@, but pinned
messages aren't immediately visible. We might be better off editing the
topic, which always appears at the top of the channel, to include
https://beam.apache.org/community/contact-us/ or links to user@ and SO. We
should also add the same topic to the #beam-java and #beam-python channels,
which currently don't have any topic.

Kyle Weaver | Software Engineer | github.com/ibzib | kcwea...@google.com


On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 9:06 AM Pablo Estrada  wrote:

> +Ismaël Mejía  can you share your impressions from
> Slack? Do you think Java/Python/other users get appropriate support there?
>
> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 7:16 PM Ahmet Altay  wrote:
>
>> I agree Slack can be used by Beam users and it would be good to meet
>> users where they are. If I understand correctly, the issue Pablo is raising
>> is that there are not enough people online in Slack that can answer python
>> questions. We also need to help people who ask questions and who can answer
>> them find a common platform. Perhaps simply adding a subject in Slack chat
>> rooms suggesting SO as an alternative question asking platform might
>> improve the situation.
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 5:45 PM Austin Bennett <
>> whatwouldausti...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I see no reason slack can't be suitable for Beam users -- other open
>>> source projects do utilize Slack for user chatter, too.  Though what it
>>> could be is different from how currently used.  There are 173 accounts in
>>> #beam-python, and a decent portion of recent conversations (at quick
>>> glance) look like they are users asking for advice (which maybe should be
>>> pointed to the Google Cloud Slack account...)
>>>
>>> I suggest meet users wherever they are (don't abandon slack), but that
>>> is from a community standpoint.  If people are metrics focused, that might
>>> be harder in slack and/or we can find ways to measure things for those that
>>> have benchmarks to hit.  I am willing to dig into Slack's API if desired,
>>> to surface/forward messages as useful.  Not sure how all that would look,
>>> open to figure it out.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:47 PM Ahmet Altay  wrote:
>>>
 Both StackOverflow and mailing lists have better answer rates for
 python questions. Suggesting either one of them makes sense. I also find
 StackOverflow easier to use but that is a personal preference.  The
 original problem is that lack of support within Slack. Both mailing list
 and stackoverflow are already listed in the support page above Slack. How
 are we going to redirect these folks from Slack to SO or ML?

 Also, what is the profile of people on slack in general. I had the
 impression that it is more tuned for developer working on Beam to interact
 rather than for users to ask Beam questions. Is this accurate?

 Ahmet

 On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:41 PM Kenneth Knowles  wrote:

> +1 to StackOverflow first, though I'm not important for Beam Python
> users. Udi has a good point about discussions. If an SO question has a lot
> of back and forth, or no response, then it is good to point to other
> channels the user might try next.
>
> Kenn
>
> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 2:20 PM Robert Bradshaw 
> wrote:
>
>> I would also suggest SO as the best alternative, especially due to its
>> indexability and searchability. If discussion is needed, the users
>> list (my preference) or slack can be good options, and ideally the
>> resolution is brought back to SO.
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 1:10 PM Udi Meiri  wrote:
>> >
>> > I don't go on Slack, but I will be notified of mentions. It has the
>> advantage of being an informal space.
>> > SO can feel just as intimidating as the mailing list IMO. Unlike
>> the others, it doesn't lend itself very well to discussions (you can only
>> post comments or answers).
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 10:55 AM Pablo Estrada 
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hello all,
>> >>
>> >> THE SITUATION:
>> >> It was brought to my attention recently that Python users in Slack
>> are not getting much support, because most of the Beam 
>> Python-knowledgeable
>> people are not on Slack. Unfortunately, in the Beam site, we do refer
>> people to Slack for assistance[1].
>> >>
>> >> Java users do receive reasonable support, because there are enough
>> Beam Java-knowledgeable people online, and willing to answer.
>> >>
>> >> On the other hand, at Google we do have a number of people who are
>> responsible to answer questions on StackOverflow[2], and we do our best 
>> to
>> answer promptly. I think we do a reasonable job overall.
>> >>
>> >> SO LET'S DISCUSS:
>> >> How should we advise the community to ask questions about Beam?
>> >> - Perhaps we should encourage people to try 

Re: [discuss] How we support our users on Slack / Mailing list / StackOverflow

[Pablo Estrada]

+Ismaël Mejía  can you share your impressions from
Slack? Do you think Java/Python/other users get appropriate support there?

On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 7:16 PM Ahmet Altay  wrote:

> I agree Slack can be used by Beam users and it would be good to meet users
> where they are. If I understand correctly, the issue Pablo is raising is
> that there are not enough people online in Slack that can answer python
> questions. We also need to help people who ask questions and who can answer
> them find a common platform. Perhaps simply adding a subject in Slack chat
> rooms suggesting SO as an alternative question asking platform might
> improve the situation.
>
> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 5:45 PM Austin Bennett 
> wrote:
>
>> I see no reason slack can't be suitable for Beam users -- other open
>> source projects do utilize Slack for user chatter, too.  Though what it
>> could be is different from how currently used.  There are 173 accounts in
>> #beam-python, and a decent portion of recent conversations (at quick
>> glance) look like they are users asking for advice (which maybe should be
>> pointed to the Google Cloud Slack account...)
>>
>> I suggest meet users wherever they are (don't abandon slack), but that is
>> from a community standpoint.  If people are metrics focused, that might be
>> harder in slack and/or we can find ways to measure things for those that
>> have benchmarks to hit.  I am willing to dig into Slack's API if desired,
>> to surface/forward messages as useful.  Not sure how all that would look,
>> open to figure it out.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:47 PM Ahmet Altay  wrote:
>>
>>> Both StackOverflow and mailing lists have better answer rates for python
>>> questions. Suggesting either one of them makes sense. I also find
>>> StackOverflow easier to use but that is a personal preference.  The
>>> original problem is that lack of support within Slack. Both mailing list
>>> and stackoverflow are already listed in the support page above Slack. How
>>> are we going to redirect these folks from Slack to SO or ML?
>>>
>>> Also, what is the profile of people on slack in general. I had the
>>> impression that it is more tuned for developer working on Beam to interact
>>> rather than for users to ask Beam questions. Is this accurate?
>>>
>>> Ahmet
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:41 PM Kenneth Knowles  wrote:
>>>
 +1 to StackOverflow first, though I'm not important for Beam Python
 users. Udi has a good point about discussions. If an SO question has a lot
 of back and forth, or no response, then it is good to point to other
 channels the user might try next.

 Kenn

 On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 2:20 PM Robert Bradshaw 
 wrote:

> I would also suggest SO as the best alternative, especially due to its
> indexability and searchability. If discussion is needed, the users
> list (my preference) or slack can be good options, and ideally the
> resolution is brought back to SO.
>
> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 1:10 PM Udi Meiri  wrote:
> >
> > I don't go on Slack, but I will be notified of mentions. It has the
> advantage of being an informal space.
> > SO can feel just as intimidating as the mailing list IMO. Unlike the
> others, it doesn't lend itself very well to discussions (you can only post
> comments or answers).
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 10:55 AM Pablo Estrada 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hello all,
> >>
> >> THE SITUATION:
> >> It was brought to my attention recently that Python users in Slack
> are not getting much support, because most of the Beam 
> Python-knowledgeable
> people are not on Slack. Unfortunately, in the Beam site, we do refer
> people to Slack for assistance[1].
> >>
> >> Java users do receive reasonable support, because there are enough
> Beam Java-knowledgeable people online, and willing to answer.
> >>
> >> On the other hand, at Google we do have a number of people who are
> responsible to answer questions on StackOverflow[2], and we do our best to
> answer promptly. I think we do a reasonable job overall.
> >>
> >> SO LET'S DISCUSS:
> >> How should we advise the community to ask questions about Beam?
> >> - Perhaps we should encourage people to try the mailing list first
> >> - Perhaps we should encourage people to try StackOverflow first
> >> - Perhaps we should write a bot that encourages Python users to go
> to StackOverflow
> >> - something else?
> >>
> >> My personal opinion is that a mailing list is not great: It's
> intimidating, it does not provide great indexing or searchability.
> >>
> >> WHAT I PROPOSE:
> >>
> >> I think explicitly encouraging everyone to go to StackOverflow
> first will be the best alternative: It's indexed, searchable, less
> intimidating than the mailing list. We can add that they can try Slack as
> well - without 

Re: [discuss] How we support our users on Slack / Mailing list / StackOverflow

[Ahmet Altay]

I agree Slack can be used by Beam users and it would be good to meet users
where they are. If I understand correctly, the issue Pablo is raising is
that there are not enough people online in Slack that can answer python
questions. We also need to help people who ask questions and who can answer
them find a common platform. Perhaps simply adding a subject in Slack chat
rooms suggesting SO as an alternative question asking platform might
improve the situation.

On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 5:45 PM Austin Bennett 
wrote:

> I see no reason slack can't be suitable for Beam users -- other open
> source projects do utilize Slack for user chatter, too.  Though what it
> could be is different from how currently used.  There are 173 accounts in
> #beam-python, and a decent portion of recent conversations (at quick
> glance) look like they are users asking for advice (which maybe should be
> pointed to the Google Cloud Slack account...)
>
> I suggest meet users wherever they are (don't abandon slack), but that is
> from a community standpoint.  If people are metrics focused, that might be
> harder in slack and/or we can find ways to measure things for those that
> have benchmarks to hit.  I am willing to dig into Slack's API if desired,
> to surface/forward messages as useful.  Not sure how all that would look,
> open to figure it out.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:47 PM Ahmet Altay  wrote:
>
>> Both StackOverflow and mailing lists have better answer rates for python
>> questions. Suggesting either one of them makes sense. I also find
>> StackOverflow easier to use but that is a personal preference.  The
>> original problem is that lack of support within Slack. Both mailing list
>> and stackoverflow are already listed in the support page above Slack. How
>> are we going to redirect these folks from Slack to SO or ML?
>>
>> Also, what is the profile of people on slack in general. I had the
>> impression that it is more tuned for developer working on Beam to interact
>> rather than for users to ask Beam questions. Is this accurate?
>>
>> Ahmet
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:41 PM Kenneth Knowles  wrote:
>>
>>> +1 to StackOverflow first, though I'm not important for Beam Python
>>> users. Udi has a good point about discussions. If an SO question has a lot
>>> of back and forth, or no response, then it is good to point to other
>>> channels the user might try next.
>>>
>>> Kenn
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 2:20 PM Robert Bradshaw 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 I would also suggest SO as the best alternative, especially due to its
 indexability and searchability. If discussion is needed, the users
 list (my preference) or slack can be good options, and ideally the
 resolution is brought back to SO.

 On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 1:10 PM Udi Meiri  wrote:
 >
 > I don't go on Slack, but I will be notified of mentions. It has the
 advantage of being an informal space.
 > SO can feel just as intimidating as the mailing list IMO. Unlike the
 others, it doesn't lend itself very well to discussions (you can only post
 comments or answers).
 >
 >
 >
 > On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 10:55 AM Pablo Estrada 
 wrote:
 >>
 >> Hello all,
 >>
 >> THE SITUATION:
 >> It was brought to my attention recently that Python users in Slack
 are not getting much support, because most of the Beam Python-knowledgeable
 people are not on Slack. Unfortunately, in the Beam site, we do refer
 people to Slack for assistance[1].
 >>
 >> Java users do receive reasonable support, because there are enough
 Beam Java-knowledgeable people online, and willing to answer.
 >>
 >> On the other hand, at Google we do have a number of people who are
 responsible to answer questions on StackOverflow[2], and we do our best to
 answer promptly. I think we do a reasonable job overall.
 >>
 >> SO LET'S DISCUSS:
 >> How should we advise the community to ask questions about Beam?
 >> - Perhaps we should encourage people to try the mailing list first
 >> - Perhaps we should encourage people to try StackOverflow first
 >> - Perhaps we should write a bot that encourages Python users to go
 to StackOverflow
 >> - something else?
 >>
 >> My personal opinion is that a mailing list is not great: It's
 intimidating, it does not provide great indexing or searchability.
 >>
 >> WHAT I PROPOSE:
 >>
 >> I think explicitly encouraging everyone to go to StackOverflow first
 will be the best alternative: It's indexed, searchable, less intimidating
 than the mailing list. We can add that they can try Slack as well - without
 any guarantees.
 >>
 >> What do others think?
 >> -P.
 >>
 >> [1] https://beam.apache.org/community/contact-us/
 >> [2]
 https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/apache-beam?tab=Newest

>>>

Re: [discuss] How we support our users on Slack / Mailing list / StackOverflow

[Austin Bennett]

I see no reason slack can't be suitable for Beam users -- other open source
projects do utilize Slack for user chatter, too.  Though what it could be
is different from how currently used.  There are 173 accounts in
#beam-python, and a decent portion of recent conversations (at quick
glance) look like they are users asking for advice (which maybe should be
pointed to the Google Cloud Slack account...)

I suggest meet users wherever they are (don't abandon slack), but that is
from a community standpoint.  If people are metrics focused, that might be
harder in slack and/or we can find ways to measure things for those that
have benchmarks to hit.  I am willing to dig into Slack's API if desired,
to surface/forward messages as useful.  Not sure how all that would look,
open to figure it out.



On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:47 PM Ahmet Altay  wrote:

> Both StackOverflow and mailing lists have better answer rates for python
> questions. Suggesting either one of them makes sense. I also find
> StackOverflow easier to use but that is a personal preference.  The
> original problem is that lack of support within Slack. Both mailing list
> and stackoverflow are already listed in the support page above Slack. How
> are we going to redirect these folks from Slack to SO or ML?
>
> Also, what is the profile of people on slack in general. I had the
> impression that it is more tuned for developer working on Beam to interact
> rather than for users to ask Beam questions. Is this accurate?
>
> Ahmet
>
> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:41 PM Kenneth Knowles  wrote:
>
>> +1 to StackOverflow first, though I'm not important for Beam Python
>> users. Udi has a good point about discussions. If an SO question has a lot
>> of back and forth, or no response, then it is good to point to other
>> channels the user might try next.
>>
>> Kenn
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 2:20 PM Robert Bradshaw 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I would also suggest SO as the best alternative, especially due to its
>>> indexability and searchability. If discussion is needed, the users
>>> list (my preference) or slack can be good options, and ideally the
>>> resolution is brought back to SO.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 1:10 PM Udi Meiri  wrote:
>>> >
>>> > I don't go on Slack, but I will be notified of mentions. It has the
>>> advantage of being an informal space.
>>> > SO can feel just as intimidating as the mailing list IMO. Unlike the
>>> others, it doesn't lend itself very well to discussions (you can only post
>>> comments or answers).
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 10:55 AM Pablo Estrada 
>>> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Hello all,
>>> >>
>>> >> THE SITUATION:
>>> >> It was brought to my attention recently that Python users in Slack
>>> are not getting much support, because most of the Beam Python-knowledgeable
>>> people are not on Slack. Unfortunately, in the Beam site, we do refer
>>> people to Slack for assistance[1].
>>> >>
>>> >> Java users do receive reasonable support, because there are enough
>>> Beam Java-knowledgeable people online, and willing to answer.
>>> >>
>>> >> On the other hand, at Google we do have a number of people who are
>>> responsible to answer questions on StackOverflow[2], and we do our best to
>>> answer promptly. I think we do a reasonable job overall.
>>> >>
>>> >> SO LET'S DISCUSS:
>>> >> How should we advise the community to ask questions about Beam?
>>> >> - Perhaps we should encourage people to try the mailing list first
>>> >> - Perhaps we should encourage people to try StackOverflow first
>>> >> - Perhaps we should write a bot that encourages Python users to go to
>>> StackOverflow
>>> >> - something else?
>>> >>
>>> >> My personal opinion is that a mailing list is not great: It's
>>> intimidating, it does not provide great indexing or searchability.
>>> >>
>>> >> WHAT I PROPOSE:
>>> >>
>>> >> I think explicitly encouraging everyone to go to StackOverflow first
>>> will be the best alternative: It's indexed, searchable, less intimidating
>>> than the mailing list. We can add that they can try Slack as well - without
>>> any guarantees.
>>> >>
>>> >> What do others think?
>>> >> -P.
>>> >>
>>> >> [1] https://beam.apache.org/community/contact-us/
>>> >> [2] https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/apache-beam?tab=Newest
>>>
>>

Re: [discuss] How we support our users on Slack / Mailing list / StackOverflow

[Ahmet Altay]

Both StackOverflow and mailing lists have better answer rates for python
questions. Suggesting either one of them makes sense. I also find
StackOverflow easier to use but that is a personal preference.  The
original problem is that lack of support within Slack. Both mailing list
and stackoverflow are already listed in the support page above Slack. How
are we going to redirect these folks from Slack to SO or ML?

Also, what is the profile of people on slack in general. I had the
impression that it is more tuned for developer working on Beam to interact
rather than for users to ask Beam questions. Is this accurate?

Ahmet

On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 4:41 PM Kenneth Knowles  wrote:

> +1 to StackOverflow first, though I'm not important for Beam Python users.
> Udi has a good point about discussions. If an SO question has a lot of back
> and forth, or no response, then it is good to point to other channels the
> user might try next.
>
> Kenn
>
> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 2:20 PM Robert Bradshaw 
> wrote:
>
>> I would also suggest SO as the best alternative, especially due to its
>> indexability and searchability. If discussion is needed, the users
>> list (my preference) or slack can be good options, and ideally the
>> resolution is brought back to SO.
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 1:10 PM Udi Meiri  wrote:
>> >
>> > I don't go on Slack, but I will be notified of mentions. It has the
>> advantage of being an informal space.
>> > SO can feel just as intimidating as the mailing list IMO. Unlike the
>> others, it doesn't lend itself very well to discussions (you can only post
>> comments or answers).
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 10:55 AM Pablo Estrada 
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Hello all,
>> >>
>> >> THE SITUATION:
>> >> It was brought to my attention recently that Python users in Slack are
>> not getting much support, because most of the Beam Python-knowledgeable
>> people are not on Slack. Unfortunately, in the Beam site, we do refer
>> people to Slack for assistance[1].
>> >>
>> >> Java users do receive reasonable support, because there are enough
>> Beam Java-knowledgeable people online, and willing to answer.
>> >>
>> >> On the other hand, at Google we do have a number of people who are
>> responsible to answer questions on StackOverflow[2], and we do our best to
>> answer promptly. I think we do a reasonable job overall.
>> >>
>> >> SO LET'S DISCUSS:
>> >> How should we advise the community to ask questions about Beam?
>> >> - Perhaps we should encourage people to try the mailing list first
>> >> - Perhaps we should encourage people to try StackOverflow first
>> >> - Perhaps we should write a bot that encourages Python users to go to
>> StackOverflow
>> >> - something else?
>> >>
>> >> My personal opinion is that a mailing list is not great: It's
>> intimidating, it does not provide great indexing or searchability.
>> >>
>> >> WHAT I PROPOSE:
>> >>
>> >> I think explicitly encouraging everyone to go to StackOverflow first
>> will be the best alternative: It's indexed, searchable, less intimidating
>> than the mailing list. We can add that they can try Slack as well - without
>> any guarantees.
>> >>
>> >> What do others think?
>> >> -P.
>> >>
>> >> [1] https://beam.apache.org/community/contact-us/
>> >> [2] https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/apache-beam?tab=Newest
>>
>

Re: [discuss] How we support our users on Slack / Mailing list / StackOverflow

[Kenneth Knowles]

+1 to StackOverflow first, though I'm not important for Beam Python users.
Udi has a good point about discussions. If an SO question has a lot of back
and forth, or no response, then it is good to point to other channels the
user might try next.

Kenn

On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 2:20 PM Robert Bradshaw  wrote:

> I would also suggest SO as the best alternative, especially due to its
> indexability and searchability. If discussion is needed, the users
> list (my preference) or slack can be good options, and ideally the
> resolution is brought back to SO.
>
> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 1:10 PM Udi Meiri  wrote:
> >
> > I don't go on Slack, but I will be notified of mentions. It has the
> advantage of being an informal space.
> > SO can feel just as intimidating as the mailing list IMO. Unlike the
> others, it doesn't lend itself very well to discussions (you can only post
> comments or answers).
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 10:55 AM Pablo Estrada 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hello all,
> >>
> >> THE SITUATION:
> >> It was brought to my attention recently that Python users in Slack are
> not getting much support, because most of the Beam Python-knowledgeable
> people are not on Slack. Unfortunately, in the Beam site, we do refer
> people to Slack for assistance[1].
> >>
> >> Java users do receive reasonable support, because there are enough Beam
> Java-knowledgeable people online, and willing to answer.
> >>
> >> On the other hand, at Google we do have a number of people who are
> responsible to answer questions on StackOverflow[2], and we do our best to
> answer promptly. I think we do a reasonable job overall.
> >>
> >> SO LET'S DISCUSS:
> >> How should we advise the community to ask questions about Beam?
> >> - Perhaps we should encourage people to try the mailing list first
> >> - Perhaps we should encourage people to try StackOverflow first
> >> - Perhaps we should write a bot that encourages Python users to go to
> StackOverflow
> >> - something else?
> >>
> >> My personal opinion is that a mailing list is not great: It's
> intimidating, it does not provide great indexing or searchability.
> >>
> >> WHAT I PROPOSE:
> >>
> >> I think explicitly encouraging everyone to go to StackOverflow first
> will be the best alternative: It's indexed, searchable, less intimidating
> than the mailing list. We can add that they can try Slack as well - without
> any guarantees.
> >>
> >> What do others think?
> >> -P.
> >>
> >> [1] https://beam.apache.org/community/contact-us/
> >> [2] https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/apache-beam?tab=Newest
>

Re: [discuss] How we support our users on Slack / Mailing list / StackOverflow

[Robert Bradshaw]

I would also suggest SO as the best alternative, especially due to its
indexability and searchability. If discussion is needed, the users
list (my preference) or slack can be good options, and ideally the
resolution is brought back to SO.

On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 1:10 PM Udi Meiri  wrote:
>
> I don't go on Slack, but I will be notified of mentions. It has the advantage 
> of being an informal space.
> SO can feel just as intimidating as the mailing list IMO. Unlike the others, 
> it doesn't lend itself very well to discussions (you can only post comments 
> or answers).
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 10:55 AM Pablo Estrada  wrote:
>>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> THE SITUATION:
>> It was brought to my attention recently that Python users in Slack are not 
>> getting much support, because most of the Beam Python-knowledgeable people 
>> are not on Slack. Unfortunately, in the Beam site, we do refer people to 
>> Slack for assistance[1].
>>
>> Java users do receive reasonable support, because there are enough Beam 
>> Java-knowledgeable people online, and willing to answer.
>>
>> On the other hand, at Google we do have a number of people who are 
>> responsible to answer questions on StackOverflow[2], and we do our best to 
>> answer promptly. I think we do a reasonable job overall.
>>
>> SO LET'S DISCUSS:
>> How should we advise the community to ask questions about Beam?
>> - Perhaps we should encourage people to try the mailing list first
>> - Perhaps we should encourage people to try StackOverflow first
>> - Perhaps we should write a bot that encourages Python users to go to 
>> StackOverflow
>> - something else?
>>
>> My personal opinion is that a mailing list is not great: It's intimidating, 
>> it does not provide great indexing or searchability.
>>
>> WHAT I PROPOSE:
>>
>> I think explicitly encouraging everyone to go to StackOverflow first will be 
>> the best alternative: It's indexed, searchable, less intimidating than the 
>> mailing list. We can add that they can try Slack as well - without any 
>> guarantees.
>>
>> What do others think?
>> -P.
>>
>> [1] https://beam.apache.org/community/contact-us/
>> [2] https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/apache-beam?tab=Newest

Re: [discuss] How we support our users on Slack / Mailing list / StackOverflow

[Udi Meiri]

I don't go on Slack, but I will be notified of mentions. It has the
advantage of being an informal space.
SO can feel just as intimidating as the mailing list IMO. Unlike the
others, it doesn't lend itself very well to discussions (you can only post
comments or answers).



On Fri, Sep 6, 2019 at 10:55 AM Pablo Estrada  wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> THE SITUATION:
> It was brought to my attention recently that Python users in Slack are not
> getting much support, because most of the Beam Python-knowledgeable people
> are not on Slack. Unfortunately, in the Beam site, we do refer people to
> Slack for assistance[1].
>
> Java users do receive reasonable support, because there are enough Beam
> Java-knowledgeable people online, and willing to answer.
>
> On the other hand, at Google we do have a number of people who are
> responsible to answer questions on StackOverflow[2], and we do our best to
> answer promptly. I think we do a reasonable job overall.
>
> SO LET'S DISCUSS:
> How should we advise the community to ask questions about Beam?
> - Perhaps we should encourage people to try the mailing list first
> - Perhaps we should encourage people to try StackOverflow first
> - Perhaps we should write a bot that encourages Python users to go to
> StackOverflow
> - something else?
>
> My personal opinion is that a mailing list is not great: It's
> intimidating, it does not provide great indexing or searchability.
>
> WHAT I PROPOSE:
>
> I think explicitly encouraging everyone to go to StackOverflow first will
> be the best alternative: It's indexed, searchable, less intimidating than
> the mailing list. We can add that they can try Slack as well - without any
> guarantees.
>
> What do others think?
> -P.
>
> [1] https://beam.apache.org/community/contact-us/
> [2] https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/apache-beam?tab=Newest
>


smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature

[discuss] How we support our users on Slack / Mailing list / StackOverflow

[Pablo Estrada]

Hello all,

THE SITUATION:
It was brought to my attention recently that Python users in Slack are not
getting much support, because most of the Beam Python-knowledgeable people
are not on Slack. Unfortunately, in the Beam site, we do refer people to
Slack for assistance[1].

Java users do receive reasonable support, because there are enough Beam
Java-knowledgeable people online, and willing to answer.

On the other hand, at Google we do have a number of people who are
responsible to answer questions on StackOverflow[2], and we do our best to
answer promptly. I think we do a reasonable job overall.

SO LET'S DISCUSS:
How should we advise the community to ask questions about Beam?
- Perhaps we should encourage people to try the mailing list first
- Perhaps we should encourage people to try StackOverflow first
- Perhaps we should write a bot that encourages Python users to go to
StackOverflow
- something else?

My personal opinion is that a mailing list is not great: It's intimidating,
it does not provide great indexing or searchability.

WHAT I PROPOSE:

I think explicitly encouraging everyone to go to StackOverflow first will
be the best alternative: It's indexed, searchable, less intimidating than
the mailing list. We can add that they can try Slack as well - without any
guarantees.

What do others think?
-P.

[1] https://beam.apache.org/community/contact-us/
[2] https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/apache-beam?tab=Newest